Is Arrow Spine Important? Recurve Bow Shooting Tips

[@huntprimitive9918]

Great points and teaching as always Clay, and spine can, in many bow and arrows sets can be extremely important. I did however want to make sure I mention here as well as I did on my video, that my arrows are not flying sideways at all, and don't wobble in flight either. They are very straight and efficient arrows, but one of the big reasons for that is the use of Rivercane shafts which rebound incredibly fast. I talk very heavily in many of my videos and articles about the importance of arrows that don't fly with a yaw or wobble as it deflects energy away from the arrow and penetration. My video more or less, is a precursor to a bigger project this summer about how native peoples likely utilized the bow and arrow in comparison to how we do today, without the use of modern luxuries of spine testers and grain scales. But definitely very solid points about the importance of straight arrow flight, and why spine can be extremely important in accomplishing that with some bows and arrows, and I completely agree with you on that. Just wanted to clarify some of my points as well. thanks! and great job as always

[@clayhayeshunter]

I’m looking forward to the rest of the vids!

[@alexkobe4395]

I dont mean to be so off topic but does any of you know a tool to log back into an instagram account??
I was stupid lost the password. I would love any help you can offer me!

[@muhammadbrantley1709]

@Alex Kobe Instablaster :)

[@bobpenny8011]

No doubt. The first time shooting a properly tuned arrow convinced me. The shot is so much smoother and faster.

[@jonpatterson7211]

I'm a big fan of you and Ryan Gill as well. When I saw the title of your video(having just watched Ryans), I thought a pissing contest was about to break out. After seeing Ryan's comment, it's obvious that he is a gracious man, with an open mind and an honest disposition. Credit and respect to you both. I will continue to watch both channels with anticipation of what the hell is going to happen next. All the best, guys.

[@toxy1948]

Archers Paradox IS not the flexing of an arrow. The archer's paradox is the phenomenon of an arrow travelling in the direction it is pointed at full draw, when it seems that the arrow would have to pass through the starting position it was in before being drawn. This is the paradox.

[@Australian_Made]

✌⭐

[@stupidhandles]

Yup, big bug bear of mine is ppl calling arrow flex the archers paradox, the flex of the arrow is the explanation to the "paradox" (which isnt really a paradox, but a misconception explained by the flex of the arrow, as it's explainable it's not really a paradox)

[@teejayleonard]

From what I understand Ryan's looking at it from a stone age point of view and you at: getting the most power out of it for an efficient kill. I tune my arrows and I notice a difference in both speed, penetration and accuracy. Love both yours and Ryans videos. Thanks to both of you :)

[@ilsh0064]

Sir can i get ryans youtube cjannel please:)

[@jasonm7404]

I watched Ryan’s video, for grouping spine doesn’t matter! I agree 100% with you on carry the engery, with that spine does matter! Great video! I’m a fan of Ryan and you!

[@larryreese6146]

P.S. I had been hinting for years with traditional type bows but had never thought about F.O.C. I ordered the proper spine for the bow and used taller fletching to stabilize. Your videos on the subject were an eye opener. I've learned a lot by watching your and Ryan's videos. Read everything I could get my hands on about making selfbows and have always been fascinated, but thought of myself as a complete loner, so far as my approach to archery, until i found your and Ryan's videos. I've always thought that every hunter, before he is ever allowed to pick up a gun, should spend an apprenticeship missing more than hitting, messing up stalks, and watching the critters and their reactions. Pick up a traditional bow and you earn the right to hunt because it gives an appreciation for and a knowledge of the game that you'll never get from blasting it 800 yards away. In my book, the guy with the fancy scope and the high powered, plastic stocked rifle is just a killer and about as far away from being a true hunter as I am from the moon. He's just shooting at a target for bragging rights and doesn't have the slightest idea of where he is or what he's done. Both of you, keep up the good work.

[@ropetechnikltd9379]

You and your videos are nothing short of awesome. The information you provide are the most useful I have ever come across. As English is not my first language many times I have to see videos more than once to get the meaning of things but somehow the information in your videos come through straight away and crystal clear. Thank you.

[@timvandusen4192]

First of all, I LOVE that bow having the snake-skin on it! Next, I think you made some key points here about arrow spine. For long-range shooting a longbow (40+ yards) arrow spine becomes very important to optimize the bow/arrow relationship. One wants the lightest arrow/tip combination to avoid much drop, but that arrow also needs to flex enough for the feathers to clear. At close-range, as you've shown, arrow spine doesn't much affect the shot, and perhaps a very heavy arrow which actually causes the feathers to fold more as the pass the bow rather than deflect the arrow may be fine and perhaps the point the other person you mentioned was trying to make.

[@waynepatton689]

Clay. Well put. I think the most illustrative explanation I have seen on this very subject is arrow penetration tests where at close ranges arrows that were not matched to the bow penetrated less and then penetration for the same set up increased as the arrow stabilized out of extreme paradox in flight. I know this holds true for all bows and is why I concentrate on it with my long bows, recurves and compounds.

[@hillbilly4christ638]

I haven't seen many people preach the bare shaft method of tuning arrows. If you properly tune using bare shaft, the fletchings become a redundant component and you can reduce the size of the fletchings to add a little more speed to the arrow. I first saw this method by the owner of black widow bows and I find it the most effective method of tuning arrows.

[@brycehiigel235]

Thanks for the great explanation. I have been using a compound for a bout 5 years now. All They want is speed. I knew that speed isn't really the all fix all. After making a what I thought was a good shot ended up being a bad one and a lost deer. So what you were talking about does cross over to the compound users. So after my shoulder surgery Nov 2020 I had a lot of down time. I found a gentleman by the name of Ranch Fairy and got me pointed in the right direction and understanding of heavy arrows or what he calls adult arrows and FOC. I recently purchased an inexpensive recurve to enjoy the other side of archery and help with more technique. Maybe when I get more comfortable will eventually hunt with one. right now it is 35# pounds and will eventually go up in poundage as I get stronger after the surgery.

[@clayhayeshunter]

Perfect way to start!

[@Austin_Evans31]

What people also have to remember is that rivercane, bamboo and natural shoot arrows (natural, full length taper) act a lot different than doweled shafts like douglas fir or cedar. I have a bow that only likes a 70-75# parallel douglas fir shaft (flying straight on slow motion camera). But when shooting rivercane arrows, they fly perfectly shooting a 15-20+ pound spine range.....make all your shafts a little longer and you can shoot them without points (or with stone or light trade points).
When it comes down to it, its all about how your arrows fly and naturally tapered shafts give you a huge margin of error in matching arrows. You could never have consistent flight shooting traditional wood arrows with a 15-20+ pound spine range. Its obvious in this video, because your arrows aren't grouping well and I know you're a better shot than that at 15 yards :)
Also when talking broadhead flight, little stone or trade points (7/8" wide or smaller) have such a small surface area, that they don't effect arrow flight like a traditional 2 blade or 3 blade broadhead. Its essentially, like shooting a mechanical with a compound....no planing or altered broadhead flight. And those little points are DEADLY!
Put it all together and you can shoot rivercane arrows with a spine range of 50-70#, not have any point on the end and when you are ready to hunt, just haft your stone points and your done with it.
This is exactly what Ryan does and I guaranteed he has perfect arrow flight. I say that because I have perfect arrow flight and he is a lot more experienced with this stuff than I am.
Good vid though! You made some good points on the importance of arrow flight and energy transfer for increased penetration. Good luck hunting this year!

[@gregdavis7766]

You werent kidding about the speed of the bow! Amazing work bud

[@pawelgorski9256]

Great video! With properly tuned arrows to your bow you’re eliminating the need to compensate for arrow deflection due to , being over or under spined. Therefore concentrating only on the shot.

[@chrisjohnson38]

Love that new bow, I've shot longbow for year's and always found if my arrow spines weren't matched it definitely changed the point of impact, especially on a field course competition it can be very frustrating, I've always tried to keep spine within the five pound range, it makes accuracy alot easier to achieve.

[@robertschneider1977]

I find that as well. Almost always overspined hits to the left (I'm right handed,) and underspined to the right. Plus, tuned arrows take my groups in slightly. Most noticeable in vastly over/under spined arrows vs reasonably closely tuned to the bow. If it's still trying to stabilize when impact happens the tip is one side or the other to the center of the flight path.

[@dlh1947us]

@@robertschneider1977 the more you cant your bow the straighter your arrow will fly.

[@technokitten2038]

Very useful informatuion. This topic is so difficult, to be able to tune arrow right you have to have perfect technique, to take other things out of the equation. I sometimes send an arrow flying sideways for the first few meters just by doing a bad release

[@JWHITEHEAD13]

Think you are spot on. Ranch fairy has a video out about impact paradox that shows how much energy is lost on an under spined untuned arrow. Makes a huge difference upon impact especially on impact of uneven or variable surfaces ie all game species.

[@randomcdude4430]

The old saying goes "an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure" applies in this situation I think. Do the work on the front end to improve performance on the back end. Awesome video. 👍

[@jonoedwards4195]

Your Land looks as Awesome as it can get!
Arrows, My second favourite topic I can watch anything about them all day.
Great revelations in there, never thought of My arrows deflecting chances increased by a poor or late flight tidy up?
Unreal show CH, thanks.

[@nwprimate6416]

Very interesting and well articulated. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[@thefeatheredfrontiersman8135]

I couldn't even get an arrow to fly right until I compound it with foreshafts. Never used river cane Olney hardwood shafts. The main difference was the unmatched density had more give and stayed much more straight. I recently tried to grooveing with mixed results. Choke cherry and black oak are still my favorite arrow combo.

[@Leverguns50]

If you shoot off of the Left side of the bow, using thumb release and use a little torque. You don’t have to worry about arrow spine much. because you move the bow out of the way, so it doesn’t have archers paradox at all.

[@jamescooper2618]

Having the arrow flying straight and impacting straight to impart the most energy to the animal is the whole point. For that, spine does matter. I dont care how many arrows a guy can put in a general area on a bale and call it a group, it's the first arrow that counts. It needs to be a good one.

[@asse1112]

The bow looks great Clay, nice job!

[@jamesunderdal8976]

But that's the difference between traditional archery and primitive archery so both opinions are in line with each archery preference primitive is whatever you can use from nature directly and traditional has much more modern options readily available where one can be much more picky and selective in my opinion but both of you are great at what you do and love your videos and teachings

[@LostBeetle]

When I am tuning, I find if they are slightly weak you're going to be just fine, what I don't want is too stiff, not even a little. So I'm either tuned perfect, or just a little bit weak, only where your bare shaft is just a tiny bit nock left compared to the fletched, not to where the bare shaft is shooting with a noticeably different poi at 10 yards. 15-20 yards there might be a difference but it can't be much. For whatever reason I've noticed a little weak is very forgiving and you can't even tell but you can tell if it's just a little bit too stiff.

[@johnoz1978]

Man, that bloody bow is quick!!

[@lesterdumm6477]

Let's open Pandora' s box a little farther. I totally understand the importance of tuning an arrow to the point of making it come out of the bow as straight as possible. Which, in turn, makes it more accurate depending on the archer’s ability to make a clean release, at the given shot opportunity, while staying on target. All of this must come with the understanding of what "consistency" means to each shooter. Good shooting habits can only be determined by the amount of practice each archer is able to do. With that said, I argue that if I practice enough to be consistent at 15-20 yards, and that I have figured out what spine works best from my arrow tuning, why would I shoot a shorter fletching? A shorter fletching does create less drag, but what, if in the excitement of the moment, my release isn't as smooth as it is normally? That creates a spine issue doesn't it? If I am shooting at a deer at 15 yards, I want as quick a recovery of my mistake as soon as possible. I submit that shooting a 5" fletch is insurance of arrow flight recovery over a short fletch. At 15 yards there isn't enough speed significance to make any difference that it would be worthwhile to go to a shorter fletch. I have been fighting over TP for many years now. I know that if I don't draw an arrow to the same length each time, I will get inconsistent results because I lose trajectory, I get "nock right" on impact, I shoot left, or shoot low. The nock right is all from not coming to full draw or increasing back tension. My arrow spine is telling me I am not doing my job. This is caused by an under-drawing of the bow, which, in turn, creates a stiffer spine. If I overdraw my bow, I create a weaker spine, which is “nock left”. The archer must have a consistent draw length to tune an arrow properly and to be consistently accurate. The longer fletch is only some insurance against the excitement of the moment. Super video, as always.

[@clayhayeshunter]

Good points on the insurance. I’ve never thought of it that way. I think most people shooting big fletchings do so to cover up tuning issues rather than as added insurance against a poor release but could be wrong.

[@mad-manzippy2814]

This was great thanks for the info.

[@challes2000]

The one arrow coming close to bullseye is probably the one arrow with proper spine for your bow. I took my arrows from my #45 bow and tried shooting out of a #25 bow and all arrows shooting significantly left of bullseye from my aiming point.

[@robsarchery9679]

Great looking bow.Nice info

[@shawnahartzog1799]

I would love one of them bows so guess I'll try to make my own

[@samadams9557]

It matters a lot more once you go to broadheads, especially big fat broadheads that are competing with the fletchings.

[@UncleDanBand64]

In my experience spine is critical for accuracy. If an arrow is weak it shoots right. If the arrow is to stiff it shoots left. They will group but just will not go to your intended spot.

[@michaelh.weiser6502]

Helpfull as always! Thank you for sharing ! A quick and clean kill is the best we can give our prey. Waidmannsheil from Germany and God bless

[@clayhayeshunter]

Thanks Michael

[@martintierney28]

Cheers bro great stuff!

[@larryreese6146]

Both of you fellows know what you're doing. But you know that when an arrow hits an animal the same way it does a target with the arrow nock angling right or left it isn't delivering as much penetration as it is if it hits the target straight on. I dont think Ryan is disagreeing with that. By the way, that is a fine looking bow. Wanna trade?

[@Trickydickysticky]

Well.. basically- your both correct.
I wonder what hits harder.. a well tuned 40lb bow or a poorly tuned 55lb bow where the arrows fly somewhat sideways for 20 feet or so before the oversized primitive fetchings kick in.
My guess if the 55. Perhaps up your poundage and don't worry about it?

[@danielayres6336]

Would you care to do a follow up video with the same setup with broadheads? Specifically larger broadheads. Thank you, great video and big fan.

[@clayhayeshunter]

That’s a good idea. I may tackle that this summer.

[@breakfastbuddy5]

if you use a trad bow its not so important , but in a compound bow its very important

[@sebastienraymond3648]

When you don't take care of balancing your equipment, it's the equivalent of putting different air pressures in each tire of your 18 wheels truck (heavy load truckers will understand).

[@matalimanaito6341]

i've seen the parodox long ago however always wondered how much speed could a'' too stiff '' spine rob due to weight alone ?. gonna research foc now . thnx for all these considerable factors Mr. Hayes

[@voggi9450]

I appreciate this information on arrow spine to a new archer...I have comment to consider: An "oldhead" archer I know doesn't believe in a full passthrough with an arrow being a good thing because "The arrow moving around when the game runs causes more damage and bleeding".... Not saying your idea is wrong, just wanted to bring up a different way of thinking... Idk if there is any way to test something like this

[@petarpetalarev8297]

My arrows are tuned to my bow with a fast string. Unfortunately, that string broke and I had to replase it with a b55 one, just before a 3d competition last saturday, so I went with arrows too stiff. I missed almost all shots between 5-8 meters and performed better on the longer distances, just because of poor dynamic spine...

[@HOOKEDONHUNTIN]

How do you determine the weight range based on the spine?

[@user-jc5yt3cb9p]

Благодарю ! согласен.

[@mikeewing6035]

Good points. Tuning is important. To help put this in context, for the arrows used in this video could you post the deflection values that would have come from your spine tester?

[@clayhayeshunter]

I don’t have that info now but you could look it up easily enough.

[@djla2276]

That is a gorgeous bow. Hope I can make myself one that nice someday.

[@AbenteuerLernenNet]

I'm not hunting but shooting on you distance. Feel the same and link to see the arrow fast (and) straight but paying attention not to lose in material. Thanks.

[@lunkydog]

I think another reason Ryan gets away with it is because of his short draw. If you're drawing a full 28-29",( I believe you draw 29") where the arrow gets a longer power stroke, the spine becomes increasingly more important.

[@clayhayeshunter]

Good point

[@lunkydog]

@@clayhayeshunter One of the main reasons I bought a spine tester in the first place was because it takes the same amount of effort and materials to make a shitty flying arrow as a good one. And especially when you are using a very limited amount of wild turkey feathers vs commercial domestic feathers, I wanted them to go on my first choice arrow shafts.

[@stephanmurphy7947]

Hey clay as always loved the video. Just wondering if you think some one who just started archery in the last couple weeks, could be good enough come the end of September to go bow hunting? And if so what tips if any would you offer? Thanks in advance.

[@clayhayeshunter]

Sure, just make sure you can hit what you’re aiming at.

[@colinrobertson7580]

Have you tried to using khatra or any method of avoiding archers paradox rather than simply mitigating it?

[@daledouglass6723]

Without going through all the post, are all the arrows cut to the same length. I understand they have different spine, however you mentioned they were not your Norman length. Thank you for your videos!

[@daledouglass6723]

Also, what broad heads are you using? I know 166 grains, but what type are they? Again thank you!

[@clayhayeshunter]

They’re all the same length, just a little long. These are 160 field tips. For broadheads I use 190 meatheads.

[@lcjjr.6714]

What weight bow are you using?

[@joeinterrante7873]

Do shorter arrows tend to straighten more quickly, all other factors being the same?

[@clayhayeshunter]

I actually think it’s the opposite but I’ve never tested it.

[@bogenstark_kai8461]

I have a question. My Longbow, 50 lbs at 28 inches (I ´m at a 29 inch draw) I shoot with a 55-60 Spine with 11/32 shafts and 125 grain Tophat arrowhats. All great, they fly relativly straight. Now I want to build some new arrows and I used different spine calculators. They giv out different Numbers, 123 on one website and 101 on an other website. What does this mean? I have to shoot broomsticks? Nobody I asked (even the website providers) could tell me what these numbers mean, maybe you can help me out? thx in advance.

[@clayhayeshunter]

I'm not sure what those numbers are referring to. But if the arrows you are currently shooting fly well then just use that as a starting point. That's all the calculators are doing anyhow is providing a rough starting point.

[@danielfisher9344]

What is spine based on? Is it based on your draw length or the draw weight of your bow? I recently bought a PSE "Snake Bow" which is a kids/beginners recurve. It has a 25 lb. draw weight and I read someplace that 600 spined arrows were what you wanted for such a light draw weight. Is that about right?

[@clayhayeshunter]

That could be right. But if you have a very short draw length you may need an even lighter spine. My son shoots a 30lb bow but only draws 25" and he needs .700 spine.

[@danielfisher9344]

@@clayhayeshunter

[@danielfisher9344]

Thanks.

[@petrokemikal]

I shoot skinny carbon shafts with 2 inch feathers.. If my spine is off by even 3 lbs + _.. The arrows fishtail there way to the target, I can expect the groups to open up to 5, 6 inches at 30 yards... With a tuned spine im looking at no fishtailing and a group sub 3 inches.. Massive difference... Not to mention like the point you brought up.. Poor spine robs energy... If I shoot to 70meters.. Wrong spined arrows I might as well turn around and get back in the car, The arrow will fishtail and drop short by 10 meters.. If I mask the issue with bigger feathers, The drag induced by the bigger feathers trying to straighten out the arrow means I wont reach 70m either...

[@basilwatson1]

What about spine at "longer" distances I use a center cut #50 flatbow ..and shoot 30m ,,,

[@clayhayeshunter]

Spine requirements wouldn’t change at all.

[@r1sabotage]

@@clayhayeshunter Question, I'm shooting two different bows. One I aim straight is shoots straight. the second it seems to drift left and if I want it to shoot straight i have to aim about half an inch or so to the right for a straight shot. I only notice this at distances greater then 25 yards. Both are 45# bows one with the arrows tuned the one drifting left I never tuned the arrow. Im using the arrows I have tuned for the other bow. What should I focus on to resolve this matter?

[@lubossoltes321]

If you care about maximum energy transfer, you should be shooting stiff arrows from a centershot bow. If you are using anything else, you are compromising on that goal. Spine matters for consistency. Unmatched but consistent spine is worlds better than unmatched inconsistent spine. And unless you are hitting the bow with the arrow, any unmatched spine can be compensated on the aiming side. Inconsistent spine you cannot compensate for because you don't have repeatability between shots.
If you are depending on the first shot, spine does not matter as you are not aiming for groups but first shot accuracy.

[@brucesnyder7581]

Why are your arrows grouping left? I recently switched to three under and aiming with arrow point and i always hit left...

[@fahlvfaust677]

Too stiff..

[@jimmorrison1519]

I like your video, but the spine is pushing the arrows to the left ... Sorry!

[@shanek6582]

Does sinew help Osage? I’ve never backed an Osage

[@clayhayeshunter]

It can if used properly.

[@hughswanzy8871]

I'm trying to understand how shaft length affects spine? If I start with a 33 inch shaft which has a spine of 50 to 55 and start messing with foc by reducing the length of the shaft an inch at a time down to a 28 inch shaft, will this affect the shafts original spine? ( on the tester, not in flight )What is the distance between the supports that you place arrow shaft on the spine tester, (26 inches) the reason I ask is because I don't have a spine tester. Just trying to understand. Thanks!

[@steverichards9964]

Spine is measured in two ways. Static which is fixed, and dynamic which is what changes as you mess with length and FOC.

[@clayhayeshunter]

Precisely

[@clayhayeshunter]

Check out the tuning video I did. It explains it well.

[@hughswanzy8871]

@@clayhayeshunter I have watched it and I'll watch it again. I must have miss something or it was just over my head. Thanks!

[@hughswanzy8871]

@@steverichards9964 Thanks for your help, its appreciated!

[@RichardsModellingAdventures]

I reckon as long as you shoot stiff arrows you're good to go. Weak arrows for the bow fly terrible

[@jjcyphers]

Seems to me to be the difference between Traditional and Primitive archery.

[@clayhayeshunter]

Archery is archery. The principals hold true regardless of the bow. Even compounds.

[@outdoorsman9384]

Hay Clay what is your draw weight on your new piece of art?. Did you make that bow 2 piece. Too be the best shooter we can be we need to microtune are arrows to perfect flight and two me Dr Ashby, heavy FOC with minimum 650 grain arrow evin out of a 40 pound bow, is key to perfect penetration, we owe it to our selves and certainly owe to or quarry we presue, the love of traditional archery is every aspect factor from perfect arrow to countless hours of shooting , too become the best we can become, because of are toxopholite nature, were born, not made and how you know what you are, its are passion of love that no matter what it never goes away, its an endless pursue of excellence and dedication, for the ones that aren't chosen for this , couldn't understand, but the ones that were born for this will know, because its a lifetime labor of 💘 love man, I salute all of us true traditional archery men, we really are soldiers of a different kind...Amen

[@clayhayeshunter]

This is a one piece. It’s drawing about 55@28.

[@bakerboy8910]

That wasn't no 15 yards, 10 tops, but good video nonetheless

[@xfactoroutdoors165]

He's in a huge open field. Depth perception.

[@jackdelvo2702]

20 pound bow, rediculasly heavy over spined arrow, a boy's first hog. Sound familiar?

[@clayhayeshunter]

I’m not following what you’re saying.

[@jackdelvo2702]

Archery is less about the quality of the bow and the arrow then it is about that of the archer.

[@marksmallman4572]

Your son...

[@mikekupetsky6879]

I will not shoot an arrow that is not perfectly tuned to my bow I don't care how many animals have been killed by wonky arrows you won't find it in my quiver

[@Dougarrowhead]

Could have deleted you shooting the first group since you did a do over anyway unless you just want more filler. I guess you are trying to make the video long as possible

[@trtlcap1501]

Great humble brag dude. Get to the info for Pete's sake.