I have listened and practiced with Canyonchaser for many years. I started as a beginner amateur track rider. I still feel like a beginner amateur track rider - which is that fear keeping me from excessive risks. Canyonchaser has made me a much faster and much safer rider over the years with consistent and repetitive training espoused in this and other videos. And I’m so lucky to be able to ride all the roads highlighted in this video. I do not have any chicken strips on my track bike these days but I proudly have them on my road bike.
Here in New Zealand you're eyes spend more time looking at the road 30 feet ahead than at the corner ahead to dodge the defects missing seal .budget repairs potholes And cops with nothing better to do than flees the public 😢
Never make comments but had to on this. Thanks so much! I'm a returning rider after 20 yrs. Bought an Aprilia Tuono 660 and love it but had a severe fear of leaning and felt really unsure around corners. Today is the 5th day and putting these instructions into practice has made a huge difference. Today's ride was a pleasure - thanks so much!!
After completing the Yamaha Championship School online, I was basing my driving in "Lean = Risk", therefore, trying to lean as less as possible. This video made me clear how to deal with it, super clear! Thanks!
As usual a totally professional instructional video without ego. I love your productions, and although been riding practically all my life I manage to learn lots from you. You research very well and have a great way to communicate with a clear voice and manner. Very confidence inspiring- a big thank you! Regards from Australia 🇦🇺
Another excellent video Dave... top level coaching for all riders... from novice through to experienced/ professional. I share all your videos with my wife and her novice female biking friends to help build their skills and confidence... it also gives us a common skills language to discuss/debrief our rides round the twisty roads in Scotland. The production quality of your videos is absolutely brilliant. Thanks again for all that you do.
I think of like this: Don't look where you are going. Look where you want to go. Your head will lean out , your body will follow, (- and your zipper ;-)) and you are suddenly riding bloody fast! So look where you want to go! And don't be afraid of light trailbraking!
Eyes up was the first lesson for my sport riding class at track day. It makes a huge difference. I appreciate your content and keep it in mind when I go for a romp in the twisties.
‘Aim with your zipper’ from the posture video was a game changer for me. I’m good on the brakes but the zipper thing improved my mid turn and exit speeds exponentially…I feel like I have WAY more control over direction and speed literally locating my apex and drawing my line on the road in front of me and stranding the bike up with throttle control instead of steering…another skill building life saving video…saluting you from the canyons of so cal
Thanks again, Dave. This is the type of learning I look for and get from your instruction; practical measures with a philosophical and psychological path to embracing those measures. I rewatch your bike handling vids on a regular basis, just like I reread Keith and Lee’s books, and occasionally retake the Yamaha Champ University online course. I’m not just building muscle memory every day on the bike, I’m building brain memory, too. More of this, please! And thank you, again.
Great work sir. Imo yours is one of the top 2 riding instructional channels on yt. You've taught countless riders how to be safer, faster, and better. I know because you've even taught an old dog like me some new tricks. Thank you man, sincerely for what you do.
I recently experienced my first slide while tackling a sharp corner (possibly a little too aggressively and most likely counter balancing - it all happened very fast). There was no gravel but the road surface was incredibly smooth and my tires were around 4 years old. It was a sobering experience which has made me a lot more aware of the risk factor in leaning and I am now slowly working on regaining confidence. Thanks for this video as it helps put my experience into perspective and to focus on safe practices.
It takes some time to get over your first go down. Or maybe you didn't actually dump it but the fear's there now. Take it slow, figure out what really happened (maybe transition too abrupt? pushing to the max with no leeway?) before only blaming external factors. Then get back to that corner with new eyes and slow progressions up to (reasonable!) speed. Suggestions only. Also, go easy on yourself, welcome the learning opportunity.
Very much easy to understand explanation. After finishing the video I got to understand why I fear one side (right) than the other (left). Vision and posture. So in depth. Will now be applying the 3 things on all my rides. Thanks for the video. 😁
Well done. This is an excellent explanation of cornering from a psychological perspective (which is huge). It also provides lots of good ideas for improving cornering practice, which I am going to use with others (with credit, of course!).
That is one hell of a test crash. I'll be 71 in a week and a half. I've been a motorcycling performance enthusiast for over 50 years now. I may be an old dog but I'm still open to new tricks and have changed my street riding style from what I learned from the California Superbike School 35 years ago to a trail braking style in part because of your videos. Many decades ago I learned to keep my eyes level with the road in a turn. As an older rider I suppose that I get tired more easily than the young guys and moving around the bike all the time is tiring. Being tired introduces it's own risks. I've come to the conclusion that if it's necessary to hang off then that riding should be in a controlled environment (the track), not the street. But that's just my $.02 worth. To each his or her own. I guess I've survived a long time with a fair amount of luck and by avoiding becoming a crash test dummy like the one in your video. :)
The correct answer to every motorcycle question actually begins with it depends, right. It all comes down to context. We may not want to hang off the bike, but we can lean our head/chest into a corner to reduce lean. If we are going slow and have lots of grip, then counterleaning is extremely effective right. But if it's an off camber corner, to even, riding over wet grass, I want to keep that bike as upright as possible. I will say one thing about getting tired - I find, as I get older, a little bit of movement on the bike, rotating my hips and moving my legs helps keep me from getting so stiff and sore and achey.
Agree...the Corbin on my Concours has a "pocket" so I sit partially "in" the seat, not just "on" it. I normally lean in and down in a corner, which helps reduce the bike's lean. I'm not the fastest around a corner, but I'm OK with that.
Thanks for creating this video, it helps a lot of us who really dont know whats fact and whats fiction. There are so many differing opinions on what you are supposed to do. The big parking lot u-turn is most helpful. going to practice that for sure.
Right?!? Thats the challenge of our world. Being a good rider isn't determined by which content creator has the most subscribers. We look at what the best riders in the world are doing and emulate them - which is a lot harder and a lot more nuanced.
French rider here! Love your content! Thanks for all the tips, it's always a pleasure to learn from an experienced rider such as yourself. Just a quick note though. In french "chicken strips" are called "bandes de peur", "Strips of fear". "Les bandages" means...drum roll..."the bandages". Not quite the same thing😂 Cheers!
Je ne sais pas d'ou il a fumé ca.. Meme pas pris le temps de checker 2 sec . Bon .... certains de ces camarades placent la France en Australie , il faut pas leur envouloir 🤫
@@kaveag Australia, Austria...la différence est subtile! Pourquoi ne pas aussi caser la France dans le lot après tout? On a bien réussi à caser le Lot dans la France non?🤣
after this video i just had to hop on my 250 and try this on my small gated neighborhood's roads (2nd gear and going no faster than 30 kmh). im still stiff in my arms but this vid has helped me a lot on top of my prior leaning abilities
Leaning into the turn with your body allows the bike to take the turn at a lesser angle at speed than it otherwise would (angular acceleration vs. gravity balanced), this is because there's more tire available when the bike isn't about to scrape hard parts. COUNTER-leaning through a corner isn't about gaining lap speed, taking a curve faster than otherwise. Counter-leaning is about keeping body weight over the tire contact patches, it's about squaring up a corner at LOW SPEED (U-turn, 90° turn, evasive hazard maneuver, gymkhana, whatever), and it should almost never be attempted unless the tires are warm, the road is grippy, you know where the limit of bike clearance is, and you have great throttle control. You can reach the point of turn on brakes, release, dip the bike low and quickly redirect, quickly pop the bike back vertical and accelerate away. Doing this while keeping your body mostly vertical over the contact patch instead of leading your body with the bike makes the whole maneuver much quicker, better traction, and better control. Again, it's low speed quick maneuver stuff, not general highway curve navigation. In the dirt environment, mountain bikers do this to maintain traction while ripping a turn (body over contact patches), dirtbikers do this to maintain traction and balance when the rear is washing due to low traction as it's easy to control the bike when OVER TOP of it, rather than leaning far away from it.
Right! It’s not A is always better than B. The correct answer for almost everything motorcycle question starts with “it depends”. We become better riders when we understand when to use A or B, right?
Also, when I'm taking a tight lower speed corner on a twisty road where I think I might loose traction due to gravel or wet pavement or something, I definitely counter lean in case the back wheel breaks loose. I'm a dirt rider and mtb rider, and ride a vstrom on twisty roads. That bike can lean really far, I generally don't lean off my bike much if at all, maybe its a bad habit but feels safe on my vstrom
@@CanyonChasers Absolutely correct. The mindset is often trending toward the easy way out, in other words, "just tell me how to always do something, make it simple, and let me be on my way". Sorry bub, motorcycling has never been simple and there is never a standard way to do everything. Even engineers haven't been able to fully explain and quantify what makes a bicycle or motorcycle function like it does.
@@colbyprince9409 I've done the same things. It's much easier intuitively reacting to loss of rear traction when your body is hovering over the motorcycle rather than being taken for a ride when it lowsides.
Just the video I needed to see! Just starting out on my riding journey after the MSF and one of the biggest issues I had was the trust the lean even at low speeds. Now that I'm on my own, I've been looking for ways to better myself with practicing and seeing this video has given me the courage to work on it more.
"Les bandes de peur", in french. It translates to "the fear strips", wich is close enough of theses "chicken strip" A "bandage" in french, is the kind of strip you put to protect an injured part of a body. We don't do that to tyres :) Great content, btw.
Thank you so much. I was afraid I remembered wrong, so I asked a friend with a degree in French (but not a rider) and then cross referenced with google translate. I wish I'd have known to ask you. Dur... It's such a brilliant little phrase!
Great vid I got alot from it . Comming off sport /sport tourers , I,m now on a bagger and having trouble with the lack of lean over ,so it looks like I now know how I need to change my riding style Cheers Steve
My only fear was leaning while going too slow and stalling or braking wrong and falling over. But I just started trusting the bike to do its thing and it’s so much easier. I consistently trust the bike to be more capable than what I’m willing to do. And because of that I can finally do slow u turns on a normal small road and don’t need a parking lot worth of space to feel like I have room to screw up.
Another great video... Up there with the "7 tips" and "7 more tips" videos. Took a while but I appreciate that you made a direct, articulate counter-argument video to the controversial Fortnine video. I do still practice counter-leaning, emergency braking and swerving a lot though. As a daily city traffic commuter, my tactics & strategy are adjusted for close-quarters combat. 😜
Been riding half my life, and in that first half, been down three times. Don't wanna go down again. In just the last year. Sitting at a stop sign in a puddle of oil. Fourth down. Going into a round about too fast with a half flat front tire. Stupid. Frame contact while making a tight u turn. Scary. Wife won't ride with me anymore. This is a great video. Gonna face my fears, keep my eyes up, and try some posture modifications. Thanks.
Counter leaning is a carry over from dirt & off road riding. Riding street speeds with neutral to counter leaned body position still leaves chicken (aka safety) strips in the bank. Scrubbing them off on the street while still needing to hang off the inside, sounds more like track speeds (and/or poor line choices) with minimal margin for error. Counter leaning does increase bike lean angle & that also = a tighter turn radius. All these body positions seem to have their place in certain situations. The key, for me, seems to be having the understanding & practice for comfort with deploying them all on the fly as required, under whatever circumstances we find ourselves in.
Thats exactly right. There are very few absolutes in motorcycling. Most things come down to context. But when we understand some core principles we can better know when to apply each technique.
I understand that counter steering is and always will be the primary/most important tool for cornering. John Del Vecchio Cornering Confidence. Getting the body to inside, not down, but on the inside, allows faster cornering speeds with less lean/less risk. Even doing this from just the waist up makes a significant difference. Following this to the limit, that is getting a knee down at a Moto GP event. Another piece that really helped me was “rear wheel steering” from the moto gymkhana riders, glad you mentioned these techniques even though you didn’t cite the source in the same way. Turning hips and shoulders in the desired direction, pressing the outside knee up and into the tank was a game changer for me. At lower speeds, rear wheel steering is effective just by itself, less so at higher speeds. What I figured out by being aware of this aspect of my lower body, turning my hips and shoulders, I was allowing the bike to fully respond to the counter steering input. When I wasn’t getting weight to the inside, and not turning my hips and pressing the outside leg against of the bike, I was unintentionally introducing counter productive inputs to the bike, I was interfering with the bike fully responding to the counter steering input. My cornering speed, comfort and effectiveness has improved significantly without additional lean angle or risk, this give a greater margin that if a corner is misjudged, there is counter steering input and lean angle in reserve.
I love this! Yeah, I didn't mean to not cite the source because we like to look at what the best riders in the world (who aren't crashing) are doing. And they are all doing the same basic things. Another fun thing about this kind of posture is that it does introduce a little but of pressing straight down on the inside handlebar, which by itself creates a natural countersteer and helps the bike tip in with less pressure.
@ It is nice to see channels open to the range of techniques. Earlier, I had reached out to another channel describing my experience with rear wheel steering in conjunction with counter steering, asking the individual if they could discuss it. Turns out he has a black belt in being an arrogant ass with a frail ego, responded that I didn’t know what I was talking about, that I was too stupid to understand that the only technique that works is counter steering and my sources were ignorant you tube hacks as opposed to him that was “actually a skilled rider and coach”. I would like to see more on the rear wheel steering technique if you are able to, I think it would help others maximize the benefits of counter steering.
Oh wow! That’s Utah Motorsports Campus! I’m planning on taking the Yamaha Champions School this spring. Hopefully registration hasn’t opened yet, but I’m excited!
Thats what they say, but in all my years of doing this, it's actually quite rare for the gravel to be the culprit. It's usually the panicked reaction before the gravel that causes the problem.
@@CanyonChasers I remember you have an excellent video on what to do when you encounter something slippery. You're right, panic is a luxury we don't have on two wheels. We must keep our head cool when something scary happens, and if we can't do that, we probably shouldn't be on a bike. I remember a UA-cam crash video where the tire slid over something slippery in a turn. The bike was already stabilizing itself after the slippery spot, and would for sure have stayed up if the rider had done nothing. Unfortunately, the rider hammered the brake, preventing the bike from stabilizing itself. And of course, just like you say, the rider thinks he fell because of something slippery, instead of blaming his panic response. (Even so, if we have to lean further and/or brake in order to avoid a patch of gravel, we should definitely do that. And at this point, it's nice to know that the chicken strips are not zero, so that if the need arises, we have this option.)
@CanyonChasers It's called SR at California Superbike School which stands for Survival Reaponse. I always thought that was a silly thing to call it because if that's how you respond it doesn't result in Survival. I call them FIM Fear Induced Mistakes.
Got rid of my fear by doing a ‘skills day’ on a closed circuit, amazed by the grip of modern tyres and the benefits of counter steering, what chicken strips😆. The instructors gave similar advice to yourself and I now can brake to the full limit of the tyre without thinking I’m going to crash. Twenty years later I’m still enjoying fast cornering with safety… PS. Love the bike, just ordered a 2025 V4S after enjoying 10,000 miles on my V2S.
Місяць тому
Lots of grip on that circuit I bet, but a bit of gravel on the open road at full lean and....Thats why its still risky.
I love it. The value of a track day to really learn and understand what we and the bike are capable of. So we don’t panic when we need to lean a bit more for some reason.
I learned the Total Control Intermediate Rider Course method and it changed my riding, by giving me the confidence I didn’t ave in corners. Unfortunately there is a UA-camr that teaches the exact opposite! I don’t really worry about ‘chicken strips’ I seem to have them for quite awhile when I have new tires.
I really don't like the negative aspect of chicken strips. Both tires used as examples in this video were from both of Mrs CanyonChasers bikes. One she rides at the track and obviously has plenty of confidenc turning. The other is her street bike where she is conservative with lean angle in corners. A great example about how they are not a visual representation of skill or fear.
Interesting point at the end about your mtn bike. I found that my years of city commuting via bicycles has helped with my riding in intuitive ways I only discovered later with a deep dive into various technical stuff. I will watch that next. Good vid. 👍🤪🏳️🌈
few years ago... maybe 2-3 years back...i gained confidence to lean watching one of their videos about "trail braking". one day on a slippery rode during a rainy day i lowsided whilst leaninig in a curve and got scared ever since
Rain is usually cooler temps. Rain usually means oils come up out of the pavement (early on). If you lost traction early in the ride, your tires may not have been warm enough, that's besides the fact that in places where traffic frequents, a newly wet road is very hazardous due to oils. If your tires are the proper kind for touring and running about (sports tourer tires), in good condition to remove water between the road and the rubber, you will have surprising traction in the rain (without the oil surface and after the tire is warm).
We want to be adaptable and adjustable. Adapting and adjusting based on the conditions. I absolutely slow waaaaaaaay down on a wet road. I'm trail braking, but even earlier and even lighter with even less pressure, and I'm absolutely doing everything possible to keep the bike as upright as possible because I have so much less grip.
"Chicken strips" can also be a result of the tyres geometry. I was easily able to scrub right to the edge of my old rear tyre but on my new tyres (Metzeler Roadtec 02) they rear tyre is really flat through the middle and then steepens up a lot to the edge and I am yet to scrub it all the way to the edge. I have about 1.5-2cm of untouched tyre there. To be clear, I am not scrubbing my tyre to the edge at 200km/h, there just happens to be a road near where I live called the "Crown Range" that goes over a mountain pass between Wanaka and Queenstown in New Zealand. When you are going from Queenstown to Wanaka on that road there are heaps of super tight uphill switch backs so you can lean the bike down a lot even at relatively slow speeds.
Great information as always. I try to implement the body position cues but when faced with some physical limitations it gets a bit frustrating knowing what you need to do and being unable to achieve it.
in French it is 'la bande de la peur' or fear strip. Bandage is more like band aid, well if one is feared to fall, then there are good chances that person is gong to fall and need band aid. Otherwise I am a great fan of what you od for the riders, these confirmed and beginning. you help a lot. Thank you bro
Thank you!! I wasn’t sure if I remembered correctly. I asked a friend who has a degree in French (but not a rider) and then Google translate. I wish I’d have known to ask you. It’s such a fantastic bit of jargon. Way more clever than “chicken strips”
As I recall you are located in Utah so I will assume you filmed this episode on roads in Utah. I really need to get to Utah; those roads look heavenly!
It's very much a psychological limit. Pointing your chin and your zipper at the exit point - I'll have to remember that. Mentally, I'll try to "connect" my eyes to the exit point, like forming a virtual cord or rod through space between my head and the exit point, and then focus my body on "getting the bike out from under me" so I can lean into the turn. If I put my body into the turn first, it allows the bike to stay more upright. It sounds more dramatic than it looks, because all I really do is kinda lean my upper body into the turn. I never get a knee down, never go full motoGP. I'm on an ADV bike. But that's how I've been training myself to get into those turns a little more fully. I'll remember the chin & zipper posture.
I personally try to minimize lean. I just adjust my speed and hang my body / weight my inside foot. I only lean the bike with counter steering after doing the other two. Corning is most about speed management and going fast on a straight away to getting to the maintenance speed of a turn as you go into it. That's mostly about being good a breaking, knowing how the particular bike your riding handles corners at a particular speed, and less about how much you lean your bike. You can take really sharp corners if you're good at slowing down.
I hear the logic but ... nature tells us something different. Animals of prey (leopards, cheetahs, lions, etc., ...) all adjust their heads by counter-leaning / counterbalancing to keep level while their body is all over the place. Birds of prey are the same. Even chickens (ever seen that video where a person holds a chicken by it's body and then moves it up and down yet the head remains in the same place?). So I think it really is just about conditioning and repetition to remove the concerns and replace those subconscious fears with learned confidence. It's exactly the same with skiing (both getting over the fear and the physical geometry).
I mean, we're doing the same thing. We're keeping our eyes level with the horizon and putting our focus on where we are going. Our head is level, our body and bike are not.
My biggest fear is tire grip. I started riding the mid 60s when I had two lowsides and another low slide which saved. These were all due to the terrible tires of the day and road conditions. Wet road, diesel spill and sea water that washed over the roadway. With better tires two of the three wouldn't have happened. However to this day tire grip is my biggest concern and fear.
Great video thanks. I saw on a different channel instruction to put pressure on the outside pag once leaned and cornering . Do you agree with that advice ?
Meh… it depends. Sorta. If you are small it’s effectively impossible. I know lots of small guys (and gals) who slay. It can help, but in the context of the top 100 things to focus on in a corner, it would be, like, 87.
You've made many good videos, this one is excellent- thank you! Question: I don't think I can get away with putting cones on the school near us, but they have parking stripes. Will using the corners (90 degrees) be helpful instead of a U-turn?
Absolutely be mindful of stripes, if cold or moist (or hot really) they can be slippy. A 90-degree might be a good place to start, but it's not enough time at lean to get the most out of the practice. Perhaps start at 90 and then add more corner as confidence/comfort grows.
The biggest issue is places to practice greater lean it and no, carparks will never be it. LOL, started typing this before watching all the way through but there’s some practical info here. Take a relatively innocuous bike with a very common tyre… Mt03 and Road 6. Set a relatively basic goal. No chicken strips at neutral body position lean. Doing circles in a carpark on a 20 deg C day won’t put enough heat in the tyre to give you the grip needed to stop the front from pushing. You will crash before you get any real lean. You can only increase the lean by counter leaning. Or you can warm the tyres but you’re not putting enough into the tyres to keep them at temp. You can lower the pressure, but it won’t help much with the handling feel. That's my biggest beef with people telling people to go to a carpark. People see carparks as safe places but there's a genuinely a higher risk doing it there than doing it on a canyon road. You need a location that presents a series of good corners with enough braking and acceleration to put and maintain temperature in the tyres. This generally means small tracks with small straights just long enough to allow body position change , lots of sweeping corners with varying, increasing radii. Sadly no one makes such a track, and thus everything is a compromise. Some supermoto and kart tracks might fit this however some of them have tight radii turns that you physically cannot turn your head enough to look anywhere through the turn. They’re better than nothing though. Damn you are lucky to have access to that slab of bitumen.
Long time, first time. These lessons are invaluable. I recently low sided on a tights left curve when the front tire hit some loose sand-like gravel (detritus from hurricane Helene in western NC) and lost its grip. I'm ok (ATGATT!) and the bike's ok other than some cosmetic damage. The problem is that I have lost almost all confidence on left corners; just about any angle of left lean fires up every. single. anxiety. neuron in my brain. It hasn't crossed the line into panic but it easily could if (when) I see gravel in the apex of the curve. Right corners are fine. Any suggestions on how to regain confidence so that I can manage left corners without a change of underwear afterward?
My chicken strips are about 50% of my tire. I wouldn’t say I’m afraid of leaning. I just don’t. I ride to work in traffic along the same 30mph speed zone every day. Leaning isn’t required.
I'm in Utah. Lots of opportunities from "I just want to do a trackday when I'm there to help out" to some much more structured schools. Links are in the description. :)
Where is that parking lot? I need one of those! :) Nice vid. Lead with chin. Vision+ (site picture...really). Counterlean...terrifying to witness when we're coaching! Point your zipper...gold! No tight grip, no pressure on bars after input. I have riders slow down and just focus on their contact points to understand what needs to be modified and how fixing those things makes the bike lose 100#. Once students do that, they seem to be 80% of the way toward "good" (tiny adjustments with body). I used to ride with a guy who went through a few $400 sets of gloves each season... Please ditch the 360 camera...it isn't even close to what a rider sees and experiences. Chicken strips can also be that a person has only one bike for street and track... Thank you!
I was going to ask about the parking lot, too. I have trouble even finding one suitable for practicing slow speed maneuvers that I won’t get kicked out of in the LA area 😆
Please can you describe the sequence of body movements/postural changes from after the slowest point in the corner to standing the bike up with your body back in the midline. What I mean is how to smoothly and efficently get back up. I haven't found any decent description of this neither in books nor online. Weight on outside footpeg etc, ?
I should do a video about it. It’s pretty straightforward but quite important. We drop pit head to the inside and push the bike upright. We take away lean as we add throttle. In a racetrack scenario we basically want to be at WFO at the same time the bike is upright. So while not done abruptly, it’s done rather quickly.
Thank you for another great video. "Counter-leaning makes it easier to see beyond the corner" is a true statement for street riding though - obviously as opposed to hanging off because if you have a left turn followed almost immediately by a right, the bike will block your view of the next corner. That being said, one shouldn't be hanging off when street riding either.
The correct answer for almost every motorcycle question should begin wiht "it depends". So, not necessarily. Because the bike is leaning more, your head might actually be lower - even though it feels higher. However, in a fast left/right transition, the bike isn't going to be at lean for very long, so the risk is minimal. Thats a place where more of a swerve counterlean is going to be valuable. We shouldn't be hanging off like motorgp riders on the street, to be sure, but we can rotate our body into a corner and reduce lean, while leaving our bum on the seat, and give ourselves more grip to work with. It's not that A is better than B. It's that it all comes down to context. The good rider knows when to deploy each technique. The problem with counterleaning is that it has been way oversold with misleading evidence. It's a valuable skill but it quickly becomes less useful when the speed comes up or the grip goes down.
@@CanyonChasers "It depends" goes without saying. I sometimes lean with the bike and counterlean at other times going through the same corner. I've never heard of swerve counterlean, so happy to discover something new to learn! Part of the "problem" with counterleaning as a fad (I think) is that the rider doesn't feel like they are leaning that far, but the bike is. Therefore the risk perceived by the rider is less than the actual risk which might, especially for inexperienced riders, cause them to be overconfident and not realize how close they are to the bike's or tyres' limit. Thank you for your response, and now I'm off to learn what swerve counterlean is. And while I have you, another thanks for a trail braking video from about 7 years ago. I still remember the words "what are you gonna do, add more coast?"
So, a swerve counterlean is basically what you are probably already doing - you keep your body mostly upright and let the bike lean underneath you. Because you are doing a fast(ish) left-right transition, there is little benefit (and a whole lot of effort) to try to move your body to the inside on each side in rapid succession. But as riders, we need to recognize the limit to how far we can push it in this situation because we don't want to run out of lean angle or grip, right?
@@CanyonChasers Oh yeah, especially in the dirt. I just didn't know the name for it. I make a conscious effort to keep it at about 80-85% max because you never know what might be around the next bend. Thanks again!
Haven't watched the video yet (just got to work), but Ryan/Fortnine recommended counterlean at low speeds, and leaning at high speeds (basically only on the track, you won't reach high enough speeds on public roads). Your thumbnail seems to recommend the opposite? (His video is called Motorcycle Riders - You're Leaning the Wrong Way).
Leaning a motorcycle is very much dependent on circumstances and conditions. If you're looking for ONLY ONE WAY TO ALWAYS DO IT, then you're missing many other factors. Assuming you're not afraid of anything, counter-leaning keeps the weight of your body over the contact patches, rather than away from the contact patches. That's the point of counterleaning; traction, and ability to react quickly to a rear skid. Mountain bikers do this, dirtbikers do this, road going bikers do this. All depends on conditions, confidence, purpose, and where.
My advice would be to watch the video before commenting. That seems like a good idea but you know you could just randomly comment on the thumbnail and that makes sense. 🙄
If you watch his video where he's talking about high speeds, he's going 50kph. 35mph. He's correct, although both of his video's on the topic are alarmingly misleading and lacking context. I've watched quite a few students crash right in front of me because they counterleaned when they should have taken away lean, and when I talk to them about it they've all said "But RF9 said..." Those video's are literally getting people hurt. Context is everything. There's a time and a place for both, A is not always better than B.
Q: @6:50 posture.. isnt this contra to advice to weight the outside peg? I believe its why motor units (cops) are trained to contra lean to counteract the lateral shift? Or is that more bad advice from days past like "never brake in a turn". Edit: u answered this in a short of this video: weighing outside peg is best at low speeds (along with stay off front binder!).
The weighting the outside peg is a holdover from a bygone era. Even Stoner in a recent interview said he doesn't even know why its so popular. He could never see any benefit from it, and focuses on weight on his inside footpeg for posture reasons.
No fear on that pikes peak with 200/60 rear and lowered front until I forget that I don't have sport bike clearance and the right foot gets caught (because of the stupid 3/4 akra with its double pipes that ruin the foot position/ergos) in addition to regular outer toe slider grind. Then I get the fear of lack of ground clearance, at least it's not as bad as on the diavel or v100 mandello where I got into trouble in no time after being used to my tuono at the time.
@CanyonChasers yeah, I kinda wish I got bhp uk decat or something else instead. Haven't put the center stand on my v4, it's just sitting on a shelf since I have bad memories of it from my hyper.
Totally the same and you guys often reap even more benefits because you have less overall lean angle. I teach our local highway patrol and they quickly fall in love with this and will be going quicker at the end of the day and rarely touching the floorboards. So faster with less risk. Win/win!
I’m from Hong Kong watching this video because I will be picking up my 200 hp+ S1000rr in two weeks time, and I haven’t ridden a big bike for over 10 years! I’m naturally very nervous especially with cornering because it’s such a big powerful bike (I bought it for its looks!) I’ve seen elsewhere on UA-cam that counter balancing is one of the 3 or 4 cornering techniques. In this video seems you don’t encourage people to do so but instead lean with the bike in the same cornering direction. I’m a bit puzzled - appreciate if you could elaborate more - should we forget counterbalancing altogether?
Counterbalancing is over sold by riders who don’t fully understand the physics. It’s a technique that has value in slow speed maneuvers because at low speed in a parking lot we have a ton of mechanical grip and motorcycles must lean to change direction. But it quickly falls apart when the speed comes up or the grip goes down. Fundamentally, high speed and low grip are the same thing. When we are going slow with lots of grip, nothing really matters, right. If you are riding on wet grass and needed to turn, would you counterlean? Of course not. You’d do everything you could to keep the bike upright with zero lean. We don’t train for ideal conditions. We train for what works when everything matters.
Do you ride a bicycle? There are lots of ways to get a two wheeled vehicle to lean. One is countersteering, one is where we place our head, one is what we do with the front brake. The truth is, we should be using a combination of all these things. Countersteering initiates the lean, and then all our other controls control the lean.
Is there any benefit to scrubbing out chicken strips in terms of breaking in the tire? I have some pretty thick ones, since I ride well within what I’m comfortable handling, but I wonder if it’d be worth doing some circles in a parking lot so that the margins are a bit grippier if I ever need to use them.
What are the best tires for a 2017 tuono v4? I mostly do commuting with occasional twisty roads. Currently have Michelin road 5s and am hoping for something a bit stickier
How much attention do you give to the actual road surface as you're rolling through a corner? I struggle to pull my eyes away from every bump, crack, leaf, tar snake, etc... on the road, and I know it slows me down more than it should 😖 Is this just a matter of me needing to put more trust in my tires and suspension???
I put a TON of attention on the road surface. Thats a MAJOR concern for me. The technique for this is called "fast eyes" - I think I talk about it a lot in my last video about "over slowing". Basically we want to look up and scan back at the road surface then look up again as fast as we can. It's actually the thing I say to myself inside my helmet more than anything else. Fast eyes!
@@CanyonChasers Thanks for the reply. I'll go back and watch that video again, and I'll definitely be working on "fast(er) eyes" for the coming riding season!!!
There's an unconscious perception that people have when they see someone in a video riding at high lean in a corner that the viewer themselves has never ridden through. The viewer subconsciously presumes that it's the first time the rider has gone through that corner when in reality it's highly likely that the rider has gone through that corner scores if not hundreds of times and knows it intimately. Put the same rider on a road they've never ridden before and they wont ride it the same because they'll be scanning for everything with maximum attention. If it's a road they're familiar with then they will be paying attention to what's different from the last time they rode through.
Just a question, when we have the outside leg pushing into the tank, what opposite force keeps it there? Do we need to physically use our hands to push the bike toward the outside leg via the handlebars? cause that seems like we are using too much of our hands when ideally we can ride hands free.
It’s more like the press is coming from rotating our body into the corner, bringing the outside leg along for the ride. It has a lot to do with locking our legs into the tank. In other videos I go into more detail about posture and how our foot position can lock that outside leg against the tank.
How did "I" learn to lean? I got a puncture... and had to replace the rear tyre! The difference was so pronounced that I went back and got a matching front the next weekend. What was CAUSING the FEAR of LEANING, was the LACK OF GRIP! Once the new tyres were on, I felt confident enough to tackle a long very twisty road that would make Americans poo themselves... and because the new tyres had grip, I could push them harder than I ever could on the Factory fitted tyres made in India (MRF) and being able to push on them allowed them to hear up and give me a level of grip I had never felt before! the fear quickly changed from "I don't have enough grip to corner at this speed, it feels like it will wash out" to "Oh god, how close is my foot to the ground?" The fear is NOT always mental... but it IS always a response to something MECHANICAL! If you can't feel grip, you know you can't feel grip. and you don't push beyond what you can feel! when you get grip, you test it... you look for the point where you start to feel it diminishing! and if it goes from strong grip to "gone" you will never push that hard again... and that is a RESPONCE to something MECHANICAL!
Speed equals radius. If we are running wide, into oncoming traffic and we need to tighten our line? What is our best option? Squeezing (not grabbing) the front brake.
Nice hat! While I'm happy that this indicates an awareness that there ARE actually places outside of California, it's too bad that you insist on CANYONS. We don't have those in New York State; but we sure got some tasty green mountain roads.. without the barren dust and rocks. Come on out.
@@CanyonChasers Catskill Mtns, Adirondacks, Mohawk Valley, Southern Tier, Delaware River, Hudson Highlands, Atlantic Ocean... then there's New England. But alas, not one damn "canyon" anywhere.
I have listened and practiced with Canyonchaser for many years. I started as a beginner amateur track rider. I still feel like a beginner amateur track rider - which is that fear keeping me from excessive risks. Canyonchaser has made me a much faster and much safer rider over the years with consistent and repetitive training espoused in this and other videos. And I’m so lucky to be able to ride all the roads highlighted in this video. I do not have any chicken strips on my track bike these days but I proudly have them on my road bike.
Thanks man! You're flying these days!
Well i went to KFC last night & shared a bucket of chicken strips with my girlfriend Bridget & i to am proud of them 😂 😝🕺
Here in New Zealand you're eyes spend more time looking at the road 30 feet ahead than at the corner ahead to dodge the defects missing seal .budget repairs potholes And cops with nothing better to do than flees the public 😢
I hear ya, and sections of loose metal @@coatescustoms6767
Never make comments but had to on this. Thanks so much! I'm a returning rider after 20 yrs. Bought an Aprilia Tuono 660 and love it but had a severe fear of leaning and felt really unsure around corners. Today is the 5th day and putting these instructions into practice has made a huge difference. Today's ride was a pleasure - thanks so much!!
After completing the Yamaha Championship School online, I was basing my driving in "Lean = Risk", therefore, trying to lean as less as possible. This video made me clear how to deal with it, super clear! Thanks!
As usual a totally professional instructional video without ego. I love your productions, and although been riding practically all my life I manage to learn lots from you. You research very well and have a great way to communicate with a clear voice and manner. Very confidence inspiring- a big thank you!
Regards from Australia 🇦🇺
Another excellent video Dave... top level coaching for all riders... from novice through to experienced/ professional. I share all your videos with my wife and her novice female biking friends to help build their skills and confidence... it also gives us a common skills language to discuss/debrief our rides round the twisty roads in Scotland.
The production quality of your videos is absolutely brilliant.
Thanks again for all that you do.
Thanks for that! And by the way, we just LOVE Scotland. It’s one of our most favorite places in the world.
I think of like this: Don't look where you are going. Look where you want to go. Your head will lean out , your body will follow, (- and your zipper ;-)) and you are suddenly riding bloody fast! So look where you want to go! And don't be afraid of light trailbraking!
Eyes up was the first lesson for my sport riding class at track day. It makes a huge difference. I appreciate your content and keep it in mind when I go for a romp in the twisties.
It’s really the foundation of everything, right?
Possibly the best motorcycling channel on UA-cam
Your lessons are in my head everytime I ride. I'm super grateful for this channel.
That is so awesome to hear! Thank you for being a part of this!
‘Aim with your zipper’ from the posture video was a game changer for me. I’m good on the brakes but the zipper thing improved my mid turn and exit speeds exponentially…I feel like I have WAY more control over direction and speed literally locating my apex and drawing my line on the road in front of me and stranding the bike up with throttle control instead of steering…another skill building life saving video…saluting you from the canyons of so cal
Once again, well said, Dave! I enjoy your advice immensely! Gordon. Been riding for 51 years, still learning and improving.
Thanks again, Dave. This is the type of learning I look for and get from your instruction; practical measures with a philosophical and psychological path to embracing those measures. I rewatch your bike handling vids on a regular basis, just like I reread Keith and Lee’s books, and occasionally retake the Yamaha Champ University online course. I’m not just building muscle memory every day on the bike, I’m building brain memory, too.
More of this, please! And thank you, again.
Great work sir. Imo yours is one of the top 2 riding instructional channels on yt. You've taught countless riders how to be safer, faster, and better. I know because you've even taught an old dog like me some new tricks. Thank you man, sincerely for what you do.
I am truly humbled by that, thank you so much!
All good things to you Dave for sharing this stuff.
I recently experienced my first slide while tackling a sharp corner (possibly a little too aggressively and most likely counter balancing - it all happened very fast). There was no gravel but the road surface was incredibly smooth and my tires were around 4 years old. It was a sobering experience which has made me a lot more aware of the risk factor in leaning and I am now slowly working on regaining confidence. Thanks for this video as it helps put my experience into perspective and to focus on safe practices.
It takes some time to get over your first go down. Or maybe you didn't actually dump it but the fear's there now. Take it slow, figure out what really happened (maybe transition too abrupt? pushing to the max with no leeway?) before only blaming external factors. Then get back to that corner with new eyes and slow progressions up to (reasonable!) speed.
Suggestions only. Also, go easy on yourself, welcome the learning opportunity.
Very much easy to understand explanation. After finishing the video I got to understand why I fear one side (right) than the other (left). Vision and posture. So in depth. Will now be applying the 3 things on all my rides. Thanks for the video. 😁
Another great video Dave and love the conversations on the discord channel about both the videos and other topics.
Glad you’re enjoying the content and the Discord!
Well done. This is an excellent explanation of cornering from a psychological perspective (which is huge). It also provides lots of good ideas for improving cornering practice, which I am going to use with others (with credit, of course!).
That is one hell of a test crash.
I'll be 71 in a week and a half. I've been a motorcycling performance enthusiast for over 50 years now. I may be an old dog but I'm still open to new tricks and have changed my street riding style from what I learned from the California Superbike School 35 years ago to a trail braking style in part because of your videos. Many decades ago I learned to keep my eyes level with the road in a turn.
As an older rider I suppose that I get tired more easily than the young guys and moving around the bike all the time is tiring. Being tired introduces it's own risks.
I've come to the conclusion that if it's necessary to hang off then that riding should be in a controlled environment (the track), not the street. But that's just my $.02 worth. To each his or her own. I guess I've survived a long time with a fair amount of luck and by avoiding becoming a crash test dummy like the one in your video. :)
The correct answer to every motorcycle question actually begins with it depends, right. It all comes down to context. We may not want to hang off the bike, but we can lean our head/chest into a corner to reduce lean. If we are going slow and have lots of grip, then counterleaning is extremely effective right. But if it's an off camber corner, to even, riding over wet grass, I want to keep that bike as upright as possible.
I will say one thing about getting tired - I find, as I get older, a little bit of movement on the bike, rotating my hips and moving my legs helps keep me from getting so stiff and sore and achey.
Agree...the Corbin on my Concours has a "pocket" so I sit partially "in" the seat, not just "on" it. I normally lean in and down in a corner, which helps reduce the bike's lean. I'm not the fastest around a corner, but I'm OK with that.
What crash
@@Abdal-RahmanI Crash is @ 4:54 (Crash detection in the Cardo ad)
It is very cold out up here on northern east coast. I am itching get out and practice these techniques as soon as I can. Thank you!
Thanks for creating this video, it helps a lot of us who really dont know whats fact and whats fiction. There are so many differing opinions on what you are supposed to do. The big parking lot u-turn is most helpful. going to practice that for sure.
Right?!? Thats the challenge of our world. Being a good rider isn't determined by which content creator has the most subscribers. We look at what the best riders in the world are doing and emulate them - which is a lot harder and a lot more nuanced.
French rider here! Love your content!
Thanks for all the tips, it's always a pleasure to learn from an experienced rider such as yourself.
Just a quick note though. In french "chicken strips" are called "bandes de peur", "Strips of fear". "Les bandages" means...drum roll..."the bandages". Not quite the same thing😂
Cheers!
Je ne sais pas d'ou il a fumé ca.. Meme pas pris le temps de checker 2 sec . Bon .... certains de ces camarades placent la France en Australie , il faut pas leur envouloir 🤫
@@kaveag Australia, Austria...la différence est subtile! Pourquoi ne pas aussi caser la France dans le lot après tout? On a bien réussi à caser le Lot dans la France non?🤣
after this video i just had to hop on my 250 and try this on my small gated neighborhood's roads (2nd gear and going no faster than 30 kmh). im still stiff in my arms but this vid has helped me a lot on top of my prior leaning abilities
Right on 🤠👍🏻 Thanks. I think my problem is mostly my down shifting.. seems so obvious now. I Can't wait to practice.
Leaning into the turn with your body allows the bike to take the turn at a lesser angle at speed than it otherwise would (angular acceleration vs. gravity balanced), this is because there's more tire available when the bike isn't about to scrape hard parts.
COUNTER-leaning through a corner isn't about gaining lap speed, taking a curve faster than otherwise. Counter-leaning is about keeping body weight over the tire contact patches, it's about squaring up a corner at LOW SPEED (U-turn, 90° turn, evasive hazard maneuver, gymkhana, whatever), and it should almost never be attempted unless the tires are warm, the road is grippy, you know where the limit of bike clearance is, and you have great throttle control. You can reach the point of turn on brakes, release, dip the bike low and quickly redirect, quickly pop the bike back vertical and accelerate away. Doing this while keeping your body mostly vertical over the contact patch instead of leading your body with the bike makes the whole maneuver much quicker, better traction, and better control. Again, it's low speed quick maneuver stuff, not general highway curve navigation.
In the dirt environment, mountain bikers do this to maintain traction while ripping a turn (body over contact patches), dirtbikers do this to maintain traction and balance when the rear is washing due to low traction as it's easy to control the bike when OVER TOP of it, rather than leaning far away from it.
Right! It’s not A is always better than B. The correct answer for almost everything motorcycle question starts with “it depends”. We become better riders when we understand when to use A or B, right?
Also, when I'm taking a tight lower speed corner on a twisty road where I think I might loose traction due to gravel or wet pavement or something, I definitely counter lean in case the back wheel breaks loose. I'm a dirt rider and mtb rider, and ride a vstrom on twisty roads. That bike can lean really far, I generally don't lean off my bike much if at all, maybe its a bad habit but feels safe on my vstrom
@@CanyonChasers Absolutely correct. The mindset is often trending toward the easy way out, in other words, "just tell me how to always do something, make it simple, and let me be on my way". Sorry bub, motorcycling has never been simple and there is never a standard way to do everything. Even engineers haven't been able to fully explain and quantify what makes a bicycle or motorcycle function like it does.
@@colbyprince9409 I've done the same things. It's much easier intuitively reacting to loss of rear traction when your body is hovering over the motorcycle rather than being taken for a ride when it lowsides.
Just the video I needed to see! Just starting out on my riding journey after the MSF and one of the biggest issues I had was the trust the lean even at low speeds. Now that I'm on my own, I've been looking for ways to better myself with practicing and seeing this video has given me the courage to work on it more.
I'm glad you found it helpful!
Another great video Dave. Keep up the good work. I always think of your techniques when riding here in Australia.
Thank you! And your riding season is just kicking off, yeah? Lucky! We got snow yesterday.
"Les bandes de peur", in french.
It translates to "the fear strips", wich is close enough of theses "chicken strip"
A "bandage" in french, is the kind of strip you put to protect an injured part of a body. We don't do that to tyres :)
Great content, btw.
Thank you so much. I was afraid I remembered wrong, so I asked a friend with a degree in French (but not a rider) and then cross referenced with google translate. I wish I'd have known to ask you. Dur... It's such a brilliant little phrase!
You're a French voluntarist? Hah. Cool.
Riding season is just about over where I live. Will watch it again in Spring.
It snowed here last week. Ugh.
Great vid I got alot from it . Comming off sport /sport tourers , I,m now on a bagger and having trouble with the lack of lean over ,so it looks like I now know how I need to change my riding style Cheers Steve
My only fear was leaning while going too slow and stalling or braking wrong and falling over. But I just started trusting the bike to do its thing and it’s so much easier.
I consistently trust the bike to be more capable than what I’m willing to do. And because of that I can finally do slow u turns on a normal small road and don’t need a parking lot worth of space to feel like I have room to screw up.
Another great video... Up there with the "7 tips" and "7 more tips" videos. Took a while but I appreciate that you made a direct, articulate counter-argument video to the controversial Fortnine video. I do still practice counter-leaning, emergency braking and swerving a lot though. As a daily city traffic commuter, my tactics & strategy are adjusted for close-quarters combat. 😜
Been riding half my life, and in that first half, been down three times. Don't wanna go down again. In just the last year. Sitting at a stop sign in a puddle of oil. Fourth down. Going into a round about too fast with a half flat front tire. Stupid. Frame contact while making a tight u turn. Scary. Wife won't ride with me anymore. This is a great video. Gonna face my fears, keep my eyes up, and try some posture modifications. Thanks.
You've explained this really well. Your channel is awesome. Thank you.
You're very welcome!
Counter leaning is a carry over from dirt & off road riding. Riding street speeds with neutral to counter leaned body position still leaves chicken (aka safety) strips in the bank. Scrubbing them off on the street while still needing to hang off the inside, sounds more like track speeds (and/or poor line choices) with minimal margin for error. Counter leaning does increase bike lean angle & that also = a tighter turn radius. All these body positions seem to have their place in certain situations. The key, for me, seems to be having the understanding & practice for comfort with deploying them all on the fly as required, under whatever circumstances we find ourselves in.
Thats exactly right. There are very few absolutes in motorcycling. Most things come down to context. But when we understand some core principles we can better know when to apply each technique.
I understand that counter steering is and always will be the primary/most important tool for cornering. John Del Vecchio Cornering Confidence. Getting the body to inside, not down, but on the inside, allows faster cornering speeds with less lean/less risk. Even doing this from just the waist up makes a significant difference. Following this to the limit, that is getting a knee down at a Moto GP event. Another piece that really helped me was “rear wheel steering” from the moto gymkhana riders, glad you mentioned these techniques even though you didn’t cite the source in the same way. Turning hips and shoulders in the desired direction, pressing the outside knee up and into the tank was a game changer for me. At lower speeds, rear wheel steering is effective just by itself, less so at higher speeds. What I figured out by being aware of this aspect of my lower body, turning my hips and shoulders, I was allowing the bike to fully respond to the counter steering input. When I wasn’t getting weight to the inside, and not turning my hips and pressing the outside leg against of the bike, I was unintentionally introducing counter productive inputs to the bike, I was interfering with the bike fully responding to the counter steering input. My cornering speed, comfort and effectiveness has improved significantly without additional lean angle or risk, this give a greater margin that if a corner is misjudged, there is counter steering input and lean angle in reserve.
I love this! Yeah, I didn't mean to not cite the source because we like to look at what the best riders in the world (who aren't crashing) are doing. And they are all doing the same basic things.
Another fun thing about this kind of posture is that it does introduce a little but of pressing straight down on the inside handlebar, which by itself creates a natural countersteer and helps the bike tip in with less pressure.
@ It is nice to see channels open to the range of techniques. Earlier, I had reached out to another channel describing my experience with rear wheel steering in conjunction with counter steering, asking the individual if they could discuss it. Turns out he has a black belt in being an arrogant ass with a frail ego, responded that I didn’t know what I was talking about, that I was too stupid to understand that the only technique that works is counter steering and my sources were ignorant you tube hacks as opposed to him that was “actually a skilled rider and coach”. I would like to see more on the rear wheel steering technique if you are able to, I think it would help others maximize the benefits of counter steering.
Oh wow! That’s Utah Motorsports Campus! I’m planning on taking the Yamaha Champions School this spring. Hopefully registration hasn’t opened yet, but I’m excited!
Yep. Sure is. We're based right here in Utah.
GREETINGS FROM THE PPRC GREAT VIDEO TODAY. I LEARN SOMETHING FROM EACH OF YOUR VIDEOS. THANKS FOR DOING THEM.🇺🇸🏍️
Thank you!
Looking at online discussions, when riders slide out in a turn, 90% of the time it's because they didn't look for gravel or other slippery surfaces.
Thats what they say, but in all my years of doing this, it's actually quite rare for the gravel to be the culprit. It's usually the panicked reaction before the gravel that causes the problem.
@@CanyonChasers I remember you have an excellent video on what to do when you encounter something slippery.
You're right, panic is a luxury we don't have on two wheels. We must keep our head cool when something scary happens, and if we can't do that, we probably shouldn't be on a bike.
I remember a UA-cam crash video where the tire slid over something slippery in a turn. The bike was already stabilizing itself after the slippery spot, and would for sure have stayed up if the rider had done nothing.
Unfortunately, the rider hammered the brake, preventing the bike from stabilizing itself. And of course, just like you say, the rider thinks he fell because of something slippery, instead of blaming his panic response.
(Even so, if we have to lean further and/or brake in order to avoid a patch of gravel, we should definitely do that. And at this point, it's nice to know that the chicken strips are not zero, so that if the need arises, we have this option.)
Yes! Exactly! And to your point, I usually call chicken strips my "margin for error". Right?!?
@CanyonChasers It's called SR at California Superbike School which stands for Survival Reaponse. I always thought that was a silly thing to call it because if that's how you respond it doesn't result in Survival. I call them FIM Fear Induced Mistakes.
How do you set up u big u turn? I mean like 2 to 3 car parking ?
Got rid of my fear by doing a ‘skills day’ on a closed circuit, amazed by the grip of modern tyres and the benefits of counter steering, what chicken strips😆. The instructors gave similar advice to yourself and I now can brake to the full limit of the tyre without thinking I’m going to crash. Twenty years later I’m still enjoying fast cornering with safety…
PS. Love the bike, just ordered a 2025 V4S after enjoying 10,000 miles on my V2S.
Lots of grip on that circuit I bet, but a bit of gravel on the open road at full lean and....Thats why its still risky.
I love it. The value of a track day to really learn and understand what we and the bike are capable of. So we don’t panic when we need to lean a bit more for some reason.
I learned the Total Control Intermediate Rider Course method and it changed my riding, by giving me the confidence I didn’t ave in corners. Unfortunately there is a UA-camr that teaches the exact opposite! I don’t really worry about ‘chicken strips’ I seem to have them for quite awhile when I have new tires.
I really don't like the negative aspect of chicken strips. Both tires used as examples in this video were from both of Mrs CanyonChasers bikes. One she rides at the track and obviously has plenty of confidenc turning. The other is her street bike where she is conservative with lean angle in corners. A great example about how they are not a visual representation of skill or fear.
@@CanyonChasers Exactly!
Thank you Dave, awesome perspectives.
You are most welcome!
Dave another great video mate. Warm regards from Stuart, Perth Western Australia 👍
Oh thank you! We are getting a winter snow advisory tonight. I am envisou of the warmth in Perth right now!
Outstanding video.
Great video. Still working on it....only have 30ish years in so far. :)
Nice roads you have there in Utah.
Interesting point at the end about your mtn bike. I found that my years of city commuting via bicycles has helped with my riding in intuitive ways I only discovered later with a deep dive into various technical stuff. I will watch that next. Good vid. 👍🤪🏳️🌈
thank you so much, coach!
You’re very welcome!
few years ago... maybe 2-3 years back...i gained confidence to lean watching one of their videos about "trail braking". one day on a slippery rode during a rainy day i lowsided whilst leaninig in a curve and got scared ever since
Rain is usually cooler temps. Rain usually means oils come up out of the pavement (early on). If you lost traction early in the ride, your tires may not have been warm enough, that's besides the fact that in places where traffic frequents, a newly wet road is very hazardous due to oils.
If your tires are the proper kind for touring and running about (sports tourer tires), in good condition to remove water between the road and the rubber, you will have surprising traction in the rain (without the oil surface and after the tire is warm).
We want to be adaptable and adjustable. Adapting and adjusting based on the conditions. I absolutely slow waaaaaaaay down on a wet road. I'm trail braking, but even earlier and even lighter with even less pressure, and I'm absolutely doing everything possible to keep the bike as upright as possible because I have so much less grip.
Lean Risk; Lean == Fun;
Brilliant, thanks!
"Chicken strips" can also be a result of the tyres geometry. I was easily able to scrub right to the edge of my old rear tyre but on my new tyres (Metzeler Roadtec 02) they rear tyre is really flat through the middle and then steepens up a lot to the edge and I am yet to scrub it all the way to the edge. I have about 1.5-2cm of untouched tyre there. To be clear, I am not scrubbing my tyre to the edge at 200km/h, there just happens to be a road near where I live called the "Crown Range" that goes over a mountain pass between Wanaka and Queenstown in New Zealand. When you are going from Queenstown to Wanaka on that road there are heaps of super tight uphill switch backs so you can lean the bike down a lot even at relatively slow speeds.
Totally! Or bike geometry. And I know that road! My best mate lives in Omaru. We freaking love NZ and can't wait to get back.
@ Awesome! Maybe I’ll see you on the road here one day!
Well that's another video immediately going into the motorcycle training playlist As always awesome, thank you Dave.
Thank you
Great information as always. I try to implement the body position cues but when faced with some physical limitations it gets a bit frustrating knowing what you need to do and being unable to achieve it.
Another school day Dave. I'll certainly try and reduce the size of the hems on my tyre as long as my brain joins the party. 🤔 🤓 🏍️
Great video!! Thanks!
Awesome Video! Great points for sure. Beautiful Fall foliage. How are getting along with the Ducati? Gorgeous bike! Best!
in French it is 'la bande de la peur' or fear strip. Bandage is more like band aid, well if one is feared to fall, then there are good chances that person is gong to fall and need band aid. Otherwise I am a great fan of what you od for the riders, these confirmed and beginning. you help a lot. Thank you bro
Thank you!! I wasn’t sure if I remembered correctly. I asked a friend who has a degree in French (but not a rider) and then Google translate. I wish I’d have known to ask you. It’s such a fantastic bit of jargon. Way more clever than “chicken strips”
Best chanell on you tube.
Thank you!!
Great advice, thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge with me. Where is that road at 2:12?
Thank you. That’s Bear Tooth Pass. It features heavily in this video. ua-cam.com/video/ODaAhHgtM7w/v-deo.htmlsi=Jq1yIkKRUoaZIvTf
As I recall you are located in Utah so I will assume you filmed this episode on roads in Utah. I really need to get to Utah; those roads look heavenly!
It’s not bad. Especially on Tuesdays when we usually record the riding bits.
It's very much a psychological limit. Pointing your chin and your zipper at the exit point - I'll have to remember that. Mentally, I'll try to "connect" my eyes to the exit point, like forming a virtual cord or rod through space between my head and the exit point, and then focus my body on "getting the bike out from under me" so I can lean into the turn. If I put my body into the turn first, it allows the bike to stay more upright. It sounds more dramatic than it looks, because all I really do is kinda lean my upper body into the turn. I never get a knee down, never go full motoGP. I'm on an ADV bike. But that's how I've been training myself to get into those turns a little more fully. I'll remember the chin & zipper posture.
If I could I would send you a thank you plack for this video, thanks Mr. DAVE.
Great video, thanks
I'm glad you liked it!
I personally try to minimize lean. I just adjust my speed and hang my body / weight my inside foot. I only lean the bike with counter steering after doing the other two.
Corning is most about speed management and going fast on a straight away to getting to the maintenance speed of a turn as you go into it. That's mostly about being good a breaking, knowing how the particular bike your riding handles corners at a particular speed, and less about how much you lean your bike.
You can take really sharp corners if you're good at slowing down.
Thanks 🤠
I hear the logic but ... nature tells us something different. Animals of prey (leopards, cheetahs, lions, etc., ...) all adjust their heads by counter-leaning / counterbalancing to keep level while their body is all over the place. Birds of prey are the same. Even chickens (ever seen that video where a person holds a chicken by it's body and then moves it up and down yet the head remains in the same place?).
So I think it really is just about conditioning and repetition to remove the concerns and replace those subconscious fears with learned confidence. It's exactly the same with skiing (both getting over the fear and the physical geometry).
That's interesting you mentioned skiing 👍
I mean, we're doing the same thing. We're keeping our eyes level with the horizon and putting our focus on where we are going. Our head is level, our body and bike are not.
My biggest fear is tire grip. I started riding the mid 60s when I had two lowsides and another low slide which saved. These were all due to the terrible tires of the day and road conditions. Wet road, diesel spill and sea water that washed over the roadway. With better tires two of the three wouldn't have happened. However to this day tire grip is my biggest concern and fear.
Hi, I live here in UT, do you do private lessons? Thanks
Great video thanks. I saw on a different channel instruction to put pressure on the outside pag once leaned and cornering . Do you agree with that advice ?
Meh… it depends. Sorta. If you are small it’s effectively impossible. I know lots of small guys (and gals) who slay.
It can help, but in the context of the top 100 things to focus on in a corner, it would be, like, 87.
You've made many good videos, this one is excellent- thank you!
Question: I don't think I can get away with putting cones on the school near us, but they have parking stripes. Will using the corners (90 degrees) be helpful instead of a U-turn?
Absolutely be mindful of stripes, if cold or moist (or hot really) they can be slippy. A 90-degree might be a good place to start, but it's not enough time at lean to get the most out of the practice. Perhaps start at 90 and then add more corner as confidence/comfort grows.
The biggest issue is places to practice greater lean it and no, carparks will never be it. LOL, started typing this before watching all the way through but there’s some practical info here.
Take a relatively innocuous bike with a very common tyre… Mt03 and Road 6. Set a relatively basic goal. No chicken strips at neutral body position lean.
Doing circles in a carpark on a 20 deg C day won’t put enough heat in the tyre to give you the grip needed to stop the front from pushing. You will crash before you get any real lean. You can only increase the lean by counter leaning. Or you can warm the tyres but you’re not putting enough into the tyres to keep them at temp. You can lower the pressure, but it won’t help much with the handling feel. That's my biggest beef with people telling people to go to a carpark. People see carparks as safe places but there's a genuinely a higher risk doing it there than doing it on a canyon road.
You need a location that presents a series of good corners with enough braking and acceleration to put and maintain temperature in the tyres. This generally means small tracks with small straights just long enough to allow body position change , lots of sweeping corners with varying, increasing radii. Sadly no one makes such a track, and thus everything is a compromise.
Some supermoto and kart tracks might fit this however some of them have tight radii turns that you physically cannot turn your head enough to look anywhere through the turn. They’re better than nothing though.
Damn you are lucky to have access to that slab of bitumen.
Long time, first time. These lessons are invaluable. I recently low sided on a tights left curve when the front tire hit some loose sand-like gravel (detritus from hurricane Helene in western NC) and lost its grip. I'm ok (ATGATT!) and the bike's ok other than some cosmetic damage. The problem is that I have lost almost all confidence on left corners; just about any angle of left lean fires up every. single. anxiety. neuron in my brain. It hasn't crossed the line into panic but it easily could if (when) I see gravel in the apex of the curve. Right corners are fine. Any suggestions on how to regain confidence so that I can manage left corners without a change of underwear afterward?
My chicken strips are about 50% of my tire. I wouldn’t say I’m afraid of leaning. I just don’t. I ride to work in traffic along the same 30mph speed zone every day. Leaning isn’t required.
Exactly. Chicken strips aren't really a measure of anything meaningful. Too many variables, right?
The Bandages of Fear my god did I spew my coffee all over!! 😂
"Fear is healthy"
Yes. Listen to it. There's a reason why we're afraid; look for that reason and learn from it.
Where and when do you teach courses.
Im in Canada but would love to take your courses!
I'm in Utah. Lots of opportunities from "I just want to do a trackday when I'm there to help out" to some much more structured schools. Links are in the description. :)
look for chat.... thenTAP the rear break, and GO !!!
Where is that parking lot? I need one of those! :) Nice vid. Lead with chin. Vision+ (site picture...really). Counterlean...terrifying to witness when we're coaching! Point your zipper...gold! No tight grip, no pressure on bars after input. I have riders slow down and just focus on their contact points to understand what needs to be modified and how fixing those things makes the bike lose 100#. Once students do that, they seem to be 80% of the way toward "good" (tiny adjustments with body). I used to ride with a guy who went through a few $400 sets of gloves each season... Please ditch the 360 camera...it isn't even close to what a rider sees and experiences. Chicken strips can also be that a person has only one bike for street and track... Thank you!
I'm not sure any camera shows what the rider see's. Even drone footage is misleading because it makes corners look sooooo mellow.
I was going to ask about the parking lot, too. I have trouble even finding one suitable for practicing slow speed maneuvers that I won’t get kicked out of in the LA area 😆
Please can you describe the sequence of body movements/postural changes from after the slowest point in the corner to standing the bike up with your body back in the midline. What I mean is how to smoothly and efficently get back up. I haven't found any decent description of this neither in books nor online. Weight on outside footpeg etc, ?
I should do a video about it. It’s pretty straightforward but quite important. We drop pit head to the inside and push the bike upright. We take away lean as we add throttle. In a racetrack scenario we basically want to be at WFO at the same time the bike is upright. So while not done abruptly, it’s done rather quickly.
Thank you for another great video. "Counter-leaning makes it easier to see beyond the corner" is a true statement for street riding though - obviously as opposed to hanging off because if you have a left turn followed almost immediately by a right, the bike will block your view of the next corner. That being said, one shouldn't be hanging off when street riding either.
The correct answer for almost every motorcycle question should begin wiht "it depends". So, not necessarily. Because the bike is leaning more, your head might actually be lower - even though it feels higher. However, in a fast left/right transition, the bike isn't going to be at lean for very long, so the risk is minimal. Thats a place where more of a swerve counterlean is going to be valuable.
We shouldn't be hanging off like motorgp riders on the street, to be sure, but we can rotate our body into a corner and reduce lean, while leaving our bum on the seat, and give ourselves more grip to work with. It's not that A is better than B. It's that it all comes down to context. The good rider knows when to deploy each technique. The problem with counterleaning is that it has been way oversold with misleading evidence. It's a valuable skill but it quickly becomes less useful when the speed comes up or the grip goes down.
@@CanyonChasers "It depends" goes without saying. I sometimes lean with the bike and counterlean at other times going through the same corner. I've never heard of swerve counterlean, so happy to discover something new to learn!
Part of the "problem" with counterleaning as a fad (I think) is that the rider doesn't feel
like they are leaning that far, but the bike is. Therefore the risk perceived by the rider is less than the actual risk which might, especially for inexperienced riders, cause them to be overconfident and not realize how close they are to the bike's or tyres' limit.
Thank you for your response, and now I'm off to learn what swerve counterlean is. And while I have you, another thanks for a trail braking video from about 7 years ago. I still remember the words "what are you gonna do, add more coast?"
So, a swerve counterlean is basically what you are probably already doing - you keep your body mostly upright and let the bike lean underneath you. Because you are doing a fast(ish) left-right transition, there is little benefit (and a whole lot of effort) to try to move your body to the inside on each side in rapid succession.
But as riders, we need to recognize the limit to how far we can push it in this situation because we don't want to run out of lean angle or grip, right?
@@CanyonChasers Oh yeah, especially in the dirt. I just didn't know the name for it. I make a conscious effort to keep it at about 80-85% max because you never know what might be around the next bend. Thanks again!
What is lateral? What is longitudinal?
Lateral. Font and back. Braking and Accelerating. Lateral. Side to side. Cornering.
😂 my mom knows nothing about motorcycling but she has said she wants to see "chicken strips" on my tires. ❤🏍️
Haven't watched the video yet (just got to work), but Ryan/Fortnine recommended counterlean at low speeds, and leaning at high speeds (basically only on the track, you won't reach high enough speeds on public roads). Your thumbnail seems to recommend the opposite? (His video is called Motorcycle Riders - You're Leaning the Wrong Way).
It was clickbait.
@@Mudux Really? Ugh..
Leaning a motorcycle is very much dependent on circumstances and conditions. If you're looking for ONLY ONE WAY TO ALWAYS DO IT, then you're missing many other factors.
Assuming you're not afraid of anything, counter-leaning keeps the weight of your body over the contact patches, rather than away from the contact patches. That's the point of counterleaning; traction, and ability to react quickly to a rear skid. Mountain bikers do this, dirtbikers do this, road going bikers do this. All depends on conditions, confidence, purpose, and where.
My advice would be to watch the video before commenting. That seems like a good idea but you know you could just randomly comment on the thumbnail and that makes sense. 🙄
If you watch his video where he's talking about high speeds, he's going 50kph. 35mph. He's correct, although both of his video's on the topic are alarmingly misleading and lacking context. I've watched quite a few students crash right in front of me because they counterleaned when they should have taken away lean, and when I talk to them about it they've all said "But RF9 said..." Those video's are literally getting people hurt. Context is everything. There's a time and a place for both, A is not always better than B.
Q: @6:50 posture..
isnt this contra to advice to weight the outside peg? I believe its why motor units (cops) are trained to contra lean to counteract the lateral shift? Or is that more bad advice from days past like "never brake in a turn".
Edit: u answered this in a short of this video: weighing outside peg is best at low speeds (along with stay off front binder!).
The weighting the outside peg is a holdover from a bygone era. Even Stoner in a recent interview said he doesn't even know why its so popular. He could never see any benefit from it, and focuses on weight on his inside footpeg for posture reasons.
No fear on that pikes peak with 200/60 rear and lowered front until I forget that I don't have sport bike clearance and the right foot gets caught (because of the stupid 3/4 akra with its double pipes that ruin the foot position/ergos) in addition to regular outer toe slider grind. Then I get the fear of lack of ground clearance, at least it's not as bad as on the diavel or v100 mandello where I got into trouble in no time after being used to my tuono at the time.
On the 1200 it was the centerstand that pushed your foot off the peg. Haha!
@CanyonChasers yeah, I kinda wish I got bhp uk decat or something else instead. Haven't put the center stand on my v4, it's just sitting on a shelf since I have bad memories of it from my hyper.
I understand that this would work on any bike. I have a wing with floor boards so not a peg so is the process the same or varied.?
Totally the same and you guys often reap even more benefits because you have less overall lean angle.
I teach our local highway patrol and they quickly fall in love with this and will be going quicker at the end of the day and rarely touching the floorboards. So faster with less risk. Win/win!
I’m from Hong Kong watching this video because I will be picking up my 200 hp+ S1000rr in two weeks time, and I haven’t ridden a big bike for over 10 years! I’m naturally very nervous especially with cornering because it’s such a big powerful bike (I bought it for its looks!) I’ve seen elsewhere on UA-cam that counter balancing is one of the 3 or 4 cornering techniques. In this video seems you don’t encourage people to do so but instead lean with the bike in the same cornering direction. I’m a bit puzzled - appreciate if you could elaborate more - should we forget counterbalancing altogether?
Counterbalancing is over sold by riders who don’t fully understand the physics. It’s a technique that has value in slow speed maneuvers because at low speed in a parking lot we have a ton of mechanical grip and motorcycles must lean to change direction. But it quickly falls apart when the speed comes up or the grip goes down.
Fundamentally, high speed and low grip are the same thing. When we are going slow with lots of grip, nothing really matters, right. If you are riding on wet grass and needed to turn, would you counterlean? Of course not. You’d do everything you could to keep the bike upright with zero lean. We don’t train for ideal conditions. We train for what works when everything matters.
Vision is key. Look where you want to go; not where you're going.
I'm such an overthinker, even on my motorcycle... so, how *do* you lean? Is it the same as countersteering? How exactly does one lean?
Do you ride a bicycle? There are lots of ways to get a two wheeled vehicle to lean. One is countersteering, one is where we place our head, one is what we do with the front brake. The truth is, we should be using a combination of all these things.
Countersteering initiates the lean, and then all our other controls control the lean.
You know, you don’t need the ‘s after an = sign. = equals equals. Nice drone work.
Is there any benefit to scrubbing out chicken strips in terms of breaking in the tire? I have some pretty thick ones, since I ride well within what I’m comfortable handling, but I wonder if it’d be worth doing some circles in a parking lot so that the margins are a bit grippier if I ever need to use them.
Not really. The whole mold release thing isn’t really a thing anymore. At least not like it was in the ‘80s when that advice was more relevant.
@@CanyonChasers good to know, thanks!
Yep. Unless it's raining. I'll take a brand new set of tires and just go. I don't really even think about it - unless it's raining. 🌧️
What are the best tires for a 2017 tuono v4? I mostly do commuting with occasional twisty roads. Currently have Michelin road 5s and am hoping for something a bit stickier
Angel GT2 are stickiest sport Touring tires, or maybe the Roadsmart 4. Those are both great
Dunlop Q5s are the best tire for your bike
34 psi front
30 psi rear
How much attention do you give to the actual road surface as you're rolling through a corner? I struggle to pull my eyes away from every bump, crack, leaf, tar snake, etc... on the road, and I know it slows me down more than it should 😖 Is this just a matter of me needing to put more trust in my tires and suspension???
I put a TON of attention on the road surface. Thats a MAJOR concern for me. The technique for this is called "fast eyes" - I think I talk about it a lot in my last video about "over slowing". Basically we want to look up and scan back at the road surface then look up again as fast as we can. It's actually the thing I say to myself inside my helmet more than anything else. Fast eyes!
@@CanyonChasers Thanks for the reply. I'll go back and watch that video again, and I'll definitely be working on "fast(er) eyes" for the coming riding season!!!
There's an unconscious perception that people have when they see someone in a video riding at high lean in a corner that the viewer themselves has never ridden through.
The viewer subconsciously presumes that it's the first time the rider has gone through that corner when in reality it's highly likely that the rider has gone through that corner scores if not hundreds of times and knows it intimately.
Put the same rider on a road they've never ridden before and they wont ride it the same because they'll be scanning for everything with maximum attention.
If it's a road they're familiar with then they will be paying attention to what's different from the last time they rode through.
Just a question, when we have the outside leg pushing into the tank, what opposite force keeps it there? Do we need to physically use our hands to push the bike toward the outside leg via the handlebars? cause that seems like we are using too much of our hands when ideally we can ride hands free.
It’s more like the press is coming from rotating our body into the corner, bringing the outside leg along for the ride. It has a lot to do with locking our legs into the tank. In other videos I go into more detail about posture and how our foot position can lock that outside leg against the tank.
@CanyonChasers Ah right, cool that kinda makes sense, I'll give those videos a watch too, thanks
I like to lean, much comfortable with bigger tyres,but the road not always clean.
Bravo
I never have the chicken strips because I'm a vegetarian! Hahahah! As always, another great description of an important topic. Thanks!
How did "I" learn to lean?
I got a puncture... and had to replace the rear tyre!
The difference was so pronounced that I went back and got a matching front the next weekend.
What was CAUSING the FEAR of LEANING, was the LACK OF GRIP!
Once the new tyres were on, I felt confident enough to tackle a long very twisty road that would make Americans poo themselves... and because the new tyres had grip, I could push them harder than I ever could on the Factory fitted tyres made in India (MRF) and being able to push on them allowed them to hear up and give me a level of grip I had never felt before!
the fear quickly changed from "I don't have enough grip to corner at this speed, it feels like it will wash out" to "Oh god, how close is my foot to the ground?"
The fear is NOT always mental... but it IS always a response to something MECHANICAL!
If you can't feel grip, you know you can't feel grip. and you don't push beyond what you can feel!
when you get grip, you test it... you look for the point where you start to feel it diminishing!
and if it goes from strong grip to "gone" you will never push that hard again... and that is a RESPONCE to something MECHANICAL!
What if it seems the curve will never end and you're already in the line of oncoming traffic?
Speed equals radius. If we are running wide, into oncoming traffic and we need to tighten our line? What is our best option? Squeezing (not grabbing) the front brake.
Slowly close throttle and apply brakes. Radius equals mph
Nice hat! While I'm happy that this indicates an awareness that there ARE actually places outside of California, it's too bad that you insist on CANYONS. We don't have those in New York State; but we sure got some tasty green mountain roads.. without the barren dust and rocks. Come on out.
Oh man, I'd love to! You guys have some brilliant riding out there!
@@CanyonChasers Catskill Mtns, Adirondacks, Mohawk Valley, Southern Tier, Delaware River, Hudson Highlands, Atlantic Ocean... then there's New England. But alas, not one damn "canyon" anywhere.