Hi Dave and first of all I want to give you a huge thank you! Thanks for noticing and responding to my comment, thanks for making a whole big video out of the response. And most importantly, thank you for such a reasoned response. I am absolutely thrilled.
Absolutely the most comprehensive explanation of trail braking I’ve heard,and I’ve looked! I’m an older rider and I’ve ridden many bikes on many surfaces and using the throttle and front brake at the same has never made any sense to me. Clearly a conflict of interest to do so. Thank you for making this video, I’d bet it will save a life!
100% clear, nicely done👍 Have caused throttle-brake overlap by not paying attention to my brake lever position, I was flexing my wrist to put fingers on the lever and catching the throttle tube at the same time. Not fun adding metres to your turn-in point, went straight back in to adjust. I'm no Stoner, I'll never need an overlap to enjoy my track or road riding😁
@@ProphetAndLoss Want another tip nobody talks about but all EWC riders use in order to finish their races… Use your abs when breaking in order to relieve stress on your wrists. It will also prevent you from holding your handlebars as if your entire life depended on it. It should enable you to hold them in a relaxed manner and will minimize bad feedback from you to your bike
@@Mudux I think it’s Erwan Nigon (EWC champion 2019 with Kawasaki) Due to a ski accident that left me with a weakened wrist, I started to sit further back, squeeze the gas tank with my legs and use my abs to relieve my wrist during breaking phases. But since nobody was talking about this, I never really paid attention to this, until… I watch all races of EWC on the French Eurosport channel. They always invite team managers, former EWC racers and even Eric de Seynes (president Yamaha Motor Europe) to talk about different aspects of EWC. So, it’s always interesting to watch the races, listen to their comments about the races and the insights… And during the 2023 or the 2024, one of the former EWC racers they invited (possibly Erwan Nigon) casually stated that if a racers doesn’t use it’s abs during breaking phases he won’t last past his 1st stint (EWC teams are made of 3 racers, each riding approximately for 1h, before passing the bike to the next team member. These 1h phases are called stints). If you watch the High Side channel, you will also sometimes hear Adrian Parassol telling people to use their abs (without giving any context for why to do so) Adrian Parassol is also a EWC racer, but in the SST category of EWC. Don’t underestimate SST racers as some are better than EWC racers.
@@cameronmale83 Yeah, he will never live that down. In subsequent videos, he has sorta hinted at that. OTOH, I don't watch his videos for riding technique. He covers a lot of other topics and covers them well. For technique, I watch here.
7:35 I’ve done it before on country backroads. My glove got stuck on the throttle as I was applying front brake preparing for an interesting tight corner. Suddenly the bike feels like a miserable block of wood under you with a mind of its own. You instantly go from experienced rider to first day novice. Not a good experience. It doesn’t happen often thankfully. I’ve raised my palm and have even pulled in my clutch to kill the power to the rear wheel. I need to check my gloves. Great topic. 👍
Very, very well articulated, not a single unneeded word. Riding at the age of 70, 55 years and your description of bike evolution is spot on. Segment about MotoGP riders is fascinating. I am likely to never "track day" these skills, but I just plain love riding to the best ability I can muster. Thanks!
@@CanyonChasers I take at least one high level course a year…more if I can make it happen. For the past several years this high level course has been on the track with California Superbike (mostly)or Yamaha Champion Riding School. Benefits of spending track time with expert instructors can’t be replicated IMO.
Oh wow. All this time I thought I was doing it poorly. I never overlapped front brake and throttle mostly because I was bad at it. It also nagged me "Why would you want to have both tires' grip needs fight each other?" "One pushing forward, the other pushing back" "it's only a matter of time before one beats the other and you either wash the front or the rear steps out. But I still thought that's what the pros did for some unknown reason. I don't apply any rear brake when riding hard, find it a bit too much to do when I still working on other aspects of riding. I may add it later. Right now tho, I do roll off the throttle completely then start applying brake before entering a turn, begin my lean and slowly release brake the deeper I lean into the turn. then I start applying throttle until I feel the bike stabilize to the radius of the turn. Once I see the exit, then I go hard on the throttle as I being to stand up the bike. Sometimes I lean my body off the bike further off the bike on this stage to allow the bike to get more vertical faster.
That explanation is clearly beyond debate and clears up all misunderstanding. I personally am not a fast rider, but I do want to understand the dynamics of riding and wish to be accurate in it's execution on the road. It's just good form.
I think that should be everyone's goal. It's mine. Speed is a byproduct. I'm chasing the greatest levels of precision and control. Thats what makes the sport fun for me.
Many years ago (1979) I used to work on Tasmania's West Coast. The roads up around there were (and are) twisty, bumpy and usually wet. I was riding a Honda CBX1000 with Pirelli Phantom tyres. I found that maintaining a light rear brake pressure as I dropped to 2nd or 1st gear for hairpins prevented any chain snatch and gave a smoother ride. But never the front brake...And as an aside, my BMW R1250GS has electronics that prevent throttle opening during heavy braking (even if I roll the throttle on it will have no effect).
If braking the front wheel and trying to accelerate the rear, one is going to lose grip because they are working against each other. It's like trying to slide your feet apart away from each other. If I brake the rear very gently it can help the bike pull into the corner better. But there's a limit because too much brake means a skid. So it's very gentle. Try it at low speeds on a low risk place, if you want to. If you play with a toy motorcycle on your table and grip the rear wheel with your fingertip you'll feel the bike tip slightly forward and put a little more weight on the front. Again there's a limit to how much the front can take. As a kid I learned some of this on grass and dirt. I think a rider technique school could use small lightweight road tyre bikes on grass to teach riders how to control, feel, slide, correct, all while under 15mph.
I sometimes coach riders to “imagine” they are overlapping the front brake and throttle to achieve the smoothest transitions from the brakes to the throttle. Think of it as taking up the 2mm of throttle slack as you simultaneously release the front brake. You never actually have the two opposing forces fighting each other. This was a precision technique we used more when throttles had cables and were adjusted with the factory recommended free play.
Ken! How are you, man? Obviously this is an excellent comment! It's interesting how the fly-by-wire throttles have changed things. Not sure if you've noticed but a lot of them (not our aprilia's) are programmed so that as soon as you activate the front brake, the computer shuts off the throttle. I always hated a slopply throttle cable - and I'm really impressed with how good the modern fly-by-wire throttles are.
Great stuff Dave! Really appreciate drawing the historical context into this. Too many people forget that a lot of the "common sense" info out there is based on decades long past and our machines have exponentially evolved in the past
So which wheel powers the motorbike on modern bikes? Which wheel steers a modern bike? Which tyre is larger on modern bikes? Oh yeh, its EXACTLY the same as bikes from decades ago!! The fundamentals of motorcycle dynamics have not changed since they got rid of girder forks: the rear wheel goes up and down in one plane, the chain pulls the rear wheel and affects the rear suspension, the trail reduces when the front forks compress, the bike stands up and runs wide when you start braking while leant over (on the vast majority of bikes) etc etc. Sure, suspension has improved massively, as has tyre technology and this allows you to get away with things that would have slapped you on the floor in decades past. But that emphatically does NOT mean that the original techniques are crap and irrelevant and it does not mean that learning to properly read the road can be substituted for this clickbait fad!!
Re: minute 7:35 issue , I've had my very seasoned gloves catch and keep the throttle open while reaching for and applying the front brakes more times than I care to remember. When it happens, I've simply learned to quickly lift my palm higher and all is well again. I also bought new gloves. Thanks for clarifying this "brottle" issue. It answered a question I've mulled over for several years. Suggestion: Could you reach out to some of the more respected influencers on UA-cam (Kevin - MC Rider, Andrei - Moto Control, Ryan - F9 etc.) and collectively, start replacing the "trail braking" terminology with "pressurizing" which I like and feel is far more descriptive. Thanks for a great video Dave!
I quit following MCRider as I disagree with many of the techniques he espouses. I don't pretend to be an expert rider but a lot of the advice on Utube is way off. I have been using "trail braking" for decades. I am self taught and found that this technique worked very for me. Also I rode early Airheads with lots of flywheel effect and the torque reaction also had to taken into account especially when accelerating out of a turn.
Another great explanation of physics. The opposing forces at speed are going to confuse and upset the bike which is a big no no. Even as slight as those inputs may be, now the rider needs the bike to turn and the bike says nope, I wanna go straight.
Great video with the most direct and clear explanation of trail braking and how to use it. As both a road rider and a precision police rodeo rider, the front trail braking technique, combined with judicious timing of the rear brake overlapped with throttle is something I am trying to master. This video helps my understanding of both techniques.
I grew up on Cross-ply (bias-ply) tyres, dodgy brakes and suspension. Sorts the men from the boys, especially on the oily, diesel soaked, wet roads and roundabouts in 1970-80s London. They should be mandatory as part of the test/permit to ensure you can handle a motorcycle. Those 500cc, 2-stroke race bikes (and the RD-350s and RD-500s - they weren't available in the US) were nearly unrideable! Overlapping throttle and front brake really does get your attention real fast! And yes, your explanation of how it happens is how it happened to me.
Amazing! I went through ChampU this past Spring, and I'm hoping to get signed up for Champ Street this coming season. As a result of ChampU, I find myself saying (sometimes out loud), "go to the brakes when you're nervous, trail off the brake until you're happy with speed and direction, maintain neutral throttle, add throttle when you can see the exit and take away lean angle." I even do it in the car...sorry practice motorcycle. ChampU should be required learning for new riders. Completely changed how I ride and I'm so much more comfortable and happy now!
You can not teach brand new riders trailbraking. If you watch most new riders, they grab fistfuls of front brake. They need a little time to develop the feel for brake release (you will learn this if you go to YCRS). I wish they could be taught trailbraking from the start. It would save a LOT of injuries and live.
We've been teaching trail braking to brand new riders for years with amazing outcomes. It's more intuitive. You trail brak on your bicycle, your car, your boat, your airplane. What we've discovered is when riders aren't told they must end all braking before corner tip in, and they can just keep slowing until _they_ are happy with their speed, there are no panic GRAB moments, because they never get scared.
Such a brilliant topic and astutely covered Dave. Can't thank you enough for the knowledge you've instilled in me, I can proudly say I'm a lot better than I was before..
THANK YOU! I can't believe that I had to recently comment on a FB reel where the "expert rider" was talking about the overlap of braking & accelerating during trail braking. He even drew a diagram showing the braking, accelerating & the period of overlap in between. There were new riders on there thanking him for teaching them the "right way" to trail brake. 🙄 I hope those riders read my comments & realized the dude didn't know what he was talking about.
Thanks and thank you for stepping into the fray. That’s the only way we’re going to make a change. Over 80% of new riders completely leave the sport within two years. The only way to save our sport is to combat these bad riding techniques that are scary (making the sport less fun) and legitimately getting riders hurt.
So how do you know that 'expert rider' was wrong and that this ' expert rider' is correct? 😂 (NB FTAOD I'm absolutely not advocating overlapping throttle with FRONT brake)
Fantastic video, thank you. That really helped my riding. I really like how simple you made trail braking at the end of the video - that’s the best explanation I’ve seen, and you did it in two sentences!
I always recommend your trail braking video. This is another fantastic explanation of people’s misunderstanding of terminology. Love Pedro! I will never encounter anything like what happens on GP track. I’ll be sharing this video!
I can certainly vouch for not overlapping throttle and front brake. A couple of years ago I installed one of those "cruise control" pads that allows you to ease your grip on the throttle. While I was getting used to it I quite often went to brake and accidentally activated the throttle as I hadn't adjusted my technique. It was REALLY scary and out of control. I never totally lost it, but there was a couple of times I came close. I got used to it and like the thing now, but it was touch & go whether I removed it.
Was clicking on this expecting you to arguing for this thing i had never heard of and (from trackday experience like you described) sounded bonkers. Happy to see this is not the case. (Proper) trailbraing is something i think everybody on a trackday learns quite fast (esp. here in Germany, where most slow groups have a mandatory group instruction part). Throttle and rear brake is something taught in driving license courses here (mandatory in Europe for motorcycle riding incl. tests) to gain control in slow situations (slow slalom, where you are not allowed to go faster than walking pace). Throttle and front brake just makes no sense from a chassis dynamic standpoint and you quite nicely explained the few motoGP-Edgecases it might help. Chapeau!
Hey Dave, love the videos and the topics you do them on. Especially since here in salt Lake winter has just barely arrived, this is the furthest into winter I have ridden in a decade.
Very good information. I noticed something with my new bike that is very annoying to me. I recently bought a 2024 Harley Davidson Road Glide and it comes with the selectable ride modes. One of those is a rain mode and another sport mode. I typically leave mine in sport mode and have my engine breaking capabilities on Max. But I noticed a couple of times when I switched to rain mode and I come off of the throttle and onto the front brake, I can feel the bike try to buck me because essentially the rain mode is reducing engine brakeing because it thinks it’s safer on slippery surfaces. But it’s doing this by adding a little bit of throttle to reduce that engine breaking. It is essentially the same thing is throttle front brake overlap. And it is definitely caused me to pucker a couple of times going into a turn. I no longer use the rain mode at all.
Thats interesting. So some of the modern superbikes allow you to turn down engine braking, including my Aprilia. It does it by just spritzing a wee bit of fuel into the rear cylinders. But it's never been so agressive that it felt like it was pushing the front brake. Yikes!
Thanks, I'll share that with Harley friends. Yikes indeed! I'm of two minds about all the 'new' tech, especially on bikes. We recently got a 21 Outback, the screen dependant functions plus some of the 'safety' features are not my favorite things.
Great video, thanks. When I was a rider training instructor in Ontario Canada in the 1990s, the concept of trail braking was new (to me, anyway), and it never had anything to do with the front brake, only the rear. I'm astonished that the front brake version of the story ever started.
I love riding in winters because it's easier to get feedback on my mistakes. The information you share about the physics, how things work, and trail braking especially is why I've been safe riding during winters. Thank you :)
Accidentally overlapped my throttle and front brake going into T1 on UMC West a few years ago for the same glove issue. I think my leathers are still puckered from it.
Nice topic thanks .....I gather the latest race electronics will sometimes reduce engine brake by cracking the throttle during deceleration. This is NOT driving the front forward but rather it's reducing the magnitude of rear brake from engine braking so your point still holds (but interesting tho).
What’s more. A lot of the new bikes coming out with fly by wire throttles are programmed so that as soon as you touch the front brake, the throttle shuts off, regardless. Like, that’s how bad Brottle is. Engineers have had to program around it.
Thanks for the in-depth explanation! Another part of confusion around trail breaking is how to perform it when your bike has aggressive engine braking at close throttle. From watching your other videos, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the recommendation is to go 1-2 gears higher to minimize engine braking since there's more control with trail braking than there is with engine braking. Assuming the rider is going fast enough to not lug the engine at the higher gear, it should make trail braking easier to perform. May consider making a video or short about this if people continue to ask.
@@CanyonChasersI ride a KTM super Duke 1290 R. A lot of torque with throttle on, but also massive engine brake. How does this effect the geometry of my bike vs an online four going in to a turn an closer to apex. Safest to use a higher gear? What about on track, are there any benefits to be practicing? I've experienced loss of rear traction (it surly wakes you up😅), when a bit too abrupt off throttle on transition between quick turns on cold tires. Great video, giving details and context on simple physics but often over thought action.
I go into a lot of those things in my over-slowing video ua-cam.com/video/M5ljhx0qTAM/v-deo.htmlsi=oNwp4W80Ipt5S3ta Relying on engine braking makes very subtle changes to the geometry. Rear brake helps keep the back of the bike on the ground.
It may be because I grew up on two strokes before migrating to big V twins (with no slipper clutch) so two fingers permanently covering the clutch is automatic. This allows me to moderate the engine braking by slipping the clutch where necessary
Hi, you are an amazing teacher, and I have emense respect for you and your knowledge. I have a question. Why is the motorcycle steering flaw not being corrected? From birth, we learn how to control our body, stand, turn and move forward. These are the first rules of motion we learn. Example. Stand directly behind someone and guide them left and right with your hands on their elbows, shoulders or hips. They will move correctly as instructed. However a motorcycle will destabilise and turn the other way! They call this target fixation, I think this is a flaw in the design, causing people to crash. With basic instinct skills learned from our first steps in childhood. I know training and practice helps but instinctive behaviour over powers and trumps training. I look forward to your thoughts
There are 'backwards" steering bicycles. Nobody can manage to ride them. You may want to watch this video; ua-cam.com/video/j8JEgkKMrcs/v-deo.htmlsi=pZVO4lKGbN_Qx2p9
To me, "target fixation" is the phenomenon where you're steering instinctively towards where your eyes are focused. Look at a rock on the road, you'll hit it. Look beside the rock and miss it. Focus on a tree, rock or memorial cross at the apex of a corner and you'll find yourself steering at it, with unpleasant results unless you quickly correct. Look past obstacles, look down the road, not immediately in front of you. Ride Safe👋 👽
i have been riding for almost 40 years, i have tried "brottle". It did not work well for me. It makes me lose confidence in physics facts. I have been keeping to myself for a very long time, not to argue with youngsters who almost never need the rear brake. Thank you for making things right. I would rather fall on slide or drift when failing corner than thumbling. i prefer engine braking and rear brake overlaps, it just syncs anywhere slow or fast speed cornering. easy to teach muscle memory. and don't' anyone feel awkward or loose some touch on throttle if you do front brake trailing corner even 1 or 2 fingers involve. it would be nice in near future without clutch and exchange to front brake to trailing front better. like mountain bike set up, left lever is front brake 😵💫
With regards to gloves catching/activating the throttle under braking - I've had this happen, but ONLY on bikes with a throttle-by-wire system. It seems to take such little effort to start opening the throttle on these bikes, compared to older style cable actuated throttles, that it's become a far too common occurrence...
Here's the good news for you - on all the new "fly by wire" Electric throttles, the ECU disengages the throttle when the front brake is activated. Those expert riders realize overlapping is so bad, they are programming the bikes to make it impossible.
@@CanyonChasers That's great to hear! The worst instance(s) for me happened on my old 2016 BMW K1600GTL. That thing was such a torque monster, that it could easily overpower all but the most heavy braking efforts. A couple times I barrelled into corners waaay too hot because the bike just didn't seem to want to slow down - before I realized that I was doing it. Not fun on any machine, of course, but on an 800lb touring bike it came dangerously close to a "CODE BROWN" moment 😨
This is a great discussion and I'm actually pretty relieved that trail braking is not what I was thinking. When I have worked on trail braking at track classes, I immediately decided it was not for me because as a street rider, managing both throttle and braking with a very complex (by the standard of normal vehicle control design) single hand compound motion is nothing I'd ever want to rely on in the chaos of the street. Increased probability of incorrect input and then having that one incorrect input affect TWO critical control inputs - just sounds like a terrible idea start to finish.
Right!?! It simply doesn't work, and I suspect that any rider who claims they are doing it, actually arent. Case in point, I confronted an "influencer" who advocated for the brottle method after following him around on track for a few laps and could tell he clearly wasn't overlapping the two controls. He said, (and i'm not kidding) "Oh, I don't do it because I'm afraid - but if I did, I'd be so much faster" 🙄
Thanks Dave for all these videos, they keep us safe on road, and improving our ride making it more enjoyable. Can you please expkain about gear shift before corner, as most of the time as it is suggested to do down shift needed, but the motorbike slow down no need of trail braking, but as we roll off the throttle, the bike slow down and sometimes we need to accelerate before the apex, I am not a race biker, but like to enjoy the maximum
Thank You for a great explanation. And i even use front brake trailbraking when going downhill mountain roads twisties at speeds over 40mph on a bicycle. LAst ride with friends i outran them downhill solely because of my motorcycle lines and braking techniques.
been practicing trail braking on my 67 Norton Atlas, this explanation very much appreciated. Also have 67 bonny which is horrible by comparison as you say!
Thanks Dave. You're my #1 go to for info and you have changed me to be a better and safer rider these last few years. Just to clarify: if you have drum brakes in the front you should not trail brake? I recently got a vintage bike and I ride windey hills a lot.
I mean, I don't know that I couldn't trail brake at this point. I'd just say to start off slow and ease your way into it. My old Bonneville with the fancy-dancy "double leading shoe" drum brakes that were so terrible, I never went very fast on the thing so it wasn't really much of a concern, but that was a lot of years ago.
I have only one big question. How can I practice trail braking in order to get used to the sequence of: roll off the throttle, brake brake brake and then slowly releasing the brake as I lean into the corner on the streets? I mean, at legal speeds I don't need that kind of technique because of the engine braking, and using just a little bit of front brake for wider corners is enough. Is this technique only for higher paced motorcycling?
It’s a technique that’s best for blind corners. If you are happy with your speed then no problem, right. But there is no reason why we have to be completely done braking before we tip in. I go into what you’re wondering about in detail here: STOP Over-Slowing Into Corners ua-cam.com/video/M5ljhx0qTAM/v-deo.html
@@CanyonChasers thank you for the recommendation. I will definitely try this out once the season starts. I recall doing the "enter the corner in a higher gear", and it really felt smoother and I did not know why. Will apply it once more. Thank you once again!
I doubt I'll ever be near a track but I still consider you the best. Well said, masterful video, the subject obviously deserved its own . And i notice how many comments you reply to, that's a class act.
Thanks so much! Legitimately, I believe trail braking has more relevance on the street because of how wildly unpredictable it can be. I want every possible tool at my disposal to make it to the exit of every coner I enter, right?
7:35 yep, this has happened to me. I crashed on Siberia (turn 6) at Phillip Island because I had the throttle stuck on while trying to brake. Just after I realised what was happening, it was too late and I ran off straight into the gravel. It didn't help that the lack of control made me target fixate, which sealed my fate.
5:38: they were still doing that at the early stages of MotoGP at Laguna Seca, when accelerating while going uphill to prevent the bike from flipping over
Another school day Dave. Now I understand the principles because you've exploded the myth I'm sure my riding will improve. Stay safe and ride well. 🤓 🏍️
Overlapping rear brake and throttle also really helps snatchy throttle (euro5) bikes I found out. Smoothens the transition to acceleration and keeps everything much more stable. I never mastered using my rear brake on the racetrack though. But the right suspension balance and idle revs made it work.
7:55: to prevent this from happening, I put my fingers on the break lever and then quickly lift my palm to let the throttle close from itself before holding the shut off throttle again and applying break pressure. Then I do, what Sylvain Guintoli calls the wrist reload before accelerating. It’s easy to do as when you start to accelerate, there should only be residual break pressure. So releasing nothing, doesn’t unsettle the bike. I am no expert, but by doing it correctly in a timely manner isn’t hard. It won’t turn you into a racer, but into a more confident and relaxed rider
Another Excellent Video. Question: Load the front tire increases patch/surface size area and that is why we have more grip? The additional Force of the tire on the road surface is what increases grip. The shape of the patch contributes to a better grip distribution. The surface area of the patch has little to no role on determining grip? When the front is loaded: does the bike want to go to the outside?
1. Yes 2. Yes 3. Sorta - This is getting into Slip Angle, which gets really complicated fast. 4. Sorta - "pressure" or weight has a bigger impact, but a larger contact patch is capable of ultimately more potential load. 5. No, with a few exceptions. When load goes to the front, the forks compress, which reduces trail, and makes the bike want to turn. So it helps the bike change direction - this is the part about bikes working the way expert riders ride. However, the exceptions are bikes without traditional forks, like BMW telelever where trail increases as the forks compress, or abruptly grabbing the brake mid corner. Abruptness causes the tire to, basically, fold underneath the rim and deform, and inertia wants to push the bike in the direction of travel - so this is why we try to initiate braking before tip in, and if we can't, we sneak the brake on instead of "grab" the brake.
@@CanyonChasers Appreciated. This provides some important clarity. Good examples. It is nitty-gritty, but I am still kinda stuck on what exactly is what... In engineering, the friction index between contacting surfaces and the applied contact force determine resulting grip of friction force. To be clear: Surface area does not play a role at all in this equation. But for tire/road contact the mechanics are somehow different? Surface area plays a role? The contact patch area slips more and more as you go from from the center of the tire/road contact patch to the outside. Otherwise stated, the patch center has minimal/no slip and patch outer edge maximum slip. A thin tire has a more rectangular contact patch shape. The fatter size of the tire the more it approaches a circular shape. Circular shape is more ideal offering better grip distribution. I am making assumptions here and I may be wrong. Point 5, from what I understood from Keith Code was that chopping the gas mid corner (or abruptly using front brake) leans the bike forward, loading the front end and causing it to go wide.Yes, trail decreases as the front dives. But that only makes the bike handling more responsive/twitchy?
Sounds like you got it more than not. Point 5, what we're not keying in on is the abrupt part. chopping thottle or abruptly braking mid-corner is not good. We want to go to great lenghts to avoid it because, yeah, for most bikes/tire combinations, the bike is going to want to stand up and not turn. What we actually want to do mid corner, is not chop the throttle or abruptly brake, but gently roll off the throttle to the front brake. In other video's I talk a lot more about the first and last 5% of a control. Those are the most important moments in how we interact with that control. It prevents all the things that Code is talking about. But, when we sneak the brake on, for a given lean angle, the radius of the corner will tighten, every single time. I literally cannot remember which video I go into this at detail and show it, but you can see for yourself, because that means more than anything else. Find a big open parking lot or something, ride around in a circle at a steady speed, steady lean angle - be honest with the experiment - now accelerate and see what the bike does - it'll stop turning and run wide. Same circle a second time, same speed and all that, only this time slowly roll off the throttle (keeping the same lean angle) and watch what the bike does. Get back into our circle again, now roll off the throttle to the front brake - keeping the same lean angle for as long as possible. If you are brave, try chopping the throttle or grabbing the brake, it's the abruptness that gets us in trouble more than anything else. We don't want to be afraid of our controls, we want to be afraid of abruptness.
@@CanyonChasers Clear. Gaining a better idea on the mechanics involved and how the bike behaves in certain (niche) conditions is important to me. Much appreciate your explanations. Indeed, a parking lot is probably the best way to find out about the mechanics involved. "But, when we sneak the brake on, for a given lean angle, the radius of the corner will tighten, every single time. " That is what i need to hear. In motogymka/supermoto I will apply hard (rear) braking, squat the bike while turning my head in the opposite riding direction, looking into the bend. From the outside going in I then wrap my bike around the bend. For the tightest bends I am actually turning my steering at one point. But at no point am I doing this in an abrupt fashion. Same applies on track. Except now using the front brake at much higher speeds and very different bikes. Come in hard on the front brake, load the front, ease it up smoothly as you role through the corner and then start to accelerate as you line the bike up to exit. I expect that the gas ON point is before I am going into the tightest section of the corner. But at no point will use the front brake while still on the gas. Years ago I was told not to do this. Will need to review your past videos. Thanks again. :)
Thanks for focusing on this question. As I began to try trail braking, I immediately felt the advantage of front loading and safer control. However, the engine braking of my Ducati 1200 Multistrada typically slows the bike to a minimum speed, making any braking unnecessary. The only exception to this is going down steep hills or at entry speeds that would be way above the speed limit. So I began to do a little “brottle” just to get the advantage of trail braking on intermediate speed level turns. So… that’s wrong. I guess trail braking might only be accessible if you don’t have strong engine braking. What do you think?
Thats wrong and risky. Check out this video where I go into detail about your exact scenario; ua-cam.com/video/M5ljhx0qTAM/v-deo.htmlsi=ldN4icGagCi9nIKy The solution is actually pretty easy.
If you are mid corner and start applying throttle the weight transfer, naturally, is to the rear, relieving pressure from the front wheel. If you apply rear brake at the same time then the counter-torque through the rear caliper torque arm presses the front wheel down, counteracting the initial light front end scenario. This can be useful to stop the front end from bouncing up under throttle in the corner, when the lengthening of the forks under acceleration would change the bikes handling It wastes fuel and brakes, but that's all.
Hi Dave,tx,great advice as always. The "drifting" motors and street bikes are overlapping throttle and front brake to keep the rear smoking aren't they ??? Yeah I know it's not making them fast but it is spectacular for sure... I am very unlikely to try it but for those who want to good luck!!
Thanks for CORRECTLY referring to US129 as DEALS GAP [7:05] vs. all those names referring to a mythical scale covered fire-breathing lizard. I first rode Deals Gap in 1976 on a brand new Yamaha XT500C. Complete with square block trials tires, a 6 vac 35 watt headlight, floppy front fender and a 2.3 gallon tank. That was after riding it from Wilmington, NC (about 400 miles one-way back then) to camp at the Esso station / motel now rebuilt as the "Resort". Good times! I realize that I was tougher then, than I am now at 67.😂 Oh and after that bike was stolen, I got a 1995 XT600E (still have and ride), had a 1992 TDM 850 (also stolen) and many other bikes in between. Now I'm on a 2015 Super Tenere' (XTZ12EFR or XTZ1200??), hence the nom deplume, xtphreak). Ride Safe👋 👽
Thank Christ that was never taught in australia , it’s madness, but getting on the front brake having your fingers getting into position to pull the brake lever as your closing the throttle to reduce your reaction time, then picking up the throttle as quick as you can after getting off the brake
What about twisty highways I live in Oregon with a lot of blind corners. Once I have my speed set I maintain throttle but also apply 1-2% of brake in case of a situation and I have to brake fast mid corner or just after So I not be applying any pressure and just covering? I assumed the slight pressure wouldn’t matter and help against the grab reflex because your already there so it’s easier to increase steady pressure
So first. I ADORE riding in Oregon. So many amazing roads. So yeah, those roads are so slow and so tight. Fantastic. Don't get caught up in "setting speed." Thats not how we want to think about it. I'm currently working on a video that will go into this question in more detail so stay tuned. Hopefully it'll be done next week.
I found myself doing this is response (I think) to my Yamaha's underdamped front end. I only realised what was happening when I melted the edges of the front the tire. I mistakenly thought the chassis was just prone to understeer.
I had a ❤heavy sport tourer which seemed to run wide, I learned to use pegs and rear brake for extra turn in but still ran out mid corner. Then I heard about suspension set-up, a little extra rear preload and problem solved. Physics?!
On My tiger800 XR If the brake is pressed even little the throttle does not respond. I learned it one day when the handguard got loose on a corner exit and it was just a little pressing the brake.😅 It is written in the owner's manual.
This is becoming much more common on new bikes. Thats how bad "brottle" is - engineers are designing bikes so it's impossible to overlap the throttle and front brake.
Tnx for another fantastic video! Since the first time you suggested the use of this technique, I try to inplement it but I have a problem with that motorcycle slow down too much when the throttle is off and I'm on the break ( especially on my Vstrom), the speed goes down so fast that I almost don't need to use front break. Can you tell me is there some difference, in using the technique, between engine configurations? Because on my friends inline4, I don't have that problem and far more control. Hope you'll have time to clarify this because many ppl that I asked told me to overlap neutral gas and break. Can you, please, clarify this. Tnx for fantastic content on your channel!
On big torquey bikes, just try staying a gear to two higher. In my video "Stop Overslowing" i cover this exact thing in detail. ua-cam.com/video/M5ljhx0qTAM/v-deo.htmlsi=oNwp4W80Ipt5S3ta
Clocked more than half a million miles mostly on old BMW flat twins and use trail braking (with the rear brake!) regulary. When a curve tightens and more lean angle ist needed, I softly engage the rear brake to slow down. Because these bikes sink into their suspension when you close the throttle which might cause the cylinder to hit the ground. I also used this technique to smoothen out mid corner throttle response of rough or aggressive engines like the older Ducati my wife once rode. Throttle and front brake sounds so absurd I wouldn't even have tried it. Might do for Acosta and Stoner in some rare occasions, but surely not for average me. Oh, wait, tried to celebrate a burn out once...😅
I'm beginning to feel that at least two topics related to motorcycling have been sufficiently explained on various UA-cam channels. They're trail braking and counter steering. Trail braking because it can be explained in under 10 minutes. Counter steering because it's obvious and anyone who's ever ridden a bicycle knows what it is.
@@CanyonChasers You'd think the subject would be put to rest but people keep telling each other the same old lies. People with 1000 miles of riding telling people with 250 miles of riding what's what.
Overlapping throttle and REAR brake is much easier, and steadier. This is taught in the BMW Street Survival School. Previously- was using front brake + throttle. Hard to coordinate. And yeah- my glove also balled up like yours.
Going to be the one guy in class that raises my hand. Any time you are going down the road and close the throttle (without pulling the clutch), you will get some random amount of engine braking to the rear tire, which is the equivalent of some amount of rear brake. If you slowly bring the throttle back in at a rate to match natural deceleration, then there is neither acceleration nor deceleration applied to the rear tire. If accurately done like this, which may require a significant degree of skill, would not there be a benefit in precise use of the throttle to slightly overlap front tailing brake pressure as the bike nears the end of the decelerating phase of the curve? In simpler terms, the rear tire would be brought back to neutral by slight throttle as the front brake is doing the last bit of trailing off. Advantage maybe being front trail braking is held longer into the turn?
Nope. No benefit. But big risks. Think of it like this. Speed equals radius. The front brake tells the bike to slow down and turn. Maintenance throttle - exactly as you described- the radius of the turn stays the same. Acceleration - making the numbers on the speedometer get bigger - tells the bike to straighten up and go faster. Use the right tool for the job to get the bike to do what you want or need it to do. We NEVER push the throttle against the front brake. Ever. A few pros briefly overlap in some crazy specific situations, but they NEVER push the throttle against the front brake.
@@CanyonChasers Thanks for explanation. I started riding again just over a year ago, and have watched technical motorcycle instruction vids daily ever since, including 2 of the Champ U corses. I'd estimate around 10 percent of my seat time has been training drills. I've gone the way of no throttle / brake overlap through my miles, but was never absolutely certain I clearly understood this topic.
The first time my throttle didnt fully close while braking and prepping for corner entry was the first time I rode on the bike, but also under it at the same time. Bad day.
This trail braking thing is going to get a lot of people klled. Before, we'd all just drive slower overall and be well slowed down before we entered a turn. Now people are going to be trying to enter a turn as quickly as possible and go wide and end up in the ditch or over a guard rail.
@@CanyonChasers Or, you could just slow down and enter the corner slower to begin with. I think your understanding of driving slower is still incomplete.
Okay. But how slow is slow enough? 10mph? 5mph? The idea that I have to be completely off the brake before tip in isn't a safety thing - it's a concept based on technolgy from the '50s. What if I get it wrong? What if there's something unexpected? Why is continuing to slow down so I'm prepared for the inevatability that I might need to really, really slow down, or even stop mid corner considerd "dangerous"? You trail brake on your bicycle, in your car, in a boat, in a plane. But why not on a motorcycle? Keep in mind that entering corners so slow that there's a long line of frustrated cars stacked up behind us, desperate to pass, is also posing a significant risk to our safety.
Hi Dave and first of all I want to give you a huge thank you! Thanks for noticing and responding to my comment, thanks for making a whole big video out of the response. And most importantly, thank you for such a reasoned response. I am absolutely thrilled.
Thank you. I realized I answer the question all the time, but never on it's own like this.
Absolutely the most comprehensive explanation of trail braking I’ve heard,and I’ve looked! I’m an older rider and I’ve ridden many bikes on many surfaces and using the throttle and front brake at the same has never made any sense to me. Clearly a conflict of interest to do so. Thank you for making this video, I’d bet it will save a life!
100% clear, nicely done👍 Have caused throttle-brake overlap by not paying attention to my brake lever position, I was flexing my wrist to put fingers on the lever and catching the throttle tube at the same time. Not fun adding metres to your turn-in point, went straight back in to adjust. I'm no Stoner, I'll never need an overlap to enjoy my track or road riding😁
As a new rider, thank you for telling me useful info nobody else has in the ~1000+ YT moto vids I have watched so far.
Glad to help! Thank you!
Yep, agree. I’m new too so I’ll be on the lookout for brottle advice
@@ProphetAndLoss Want another tip nobody talks about but all EWC riders use in order to finish their races…
Use your abs when breaking in order to relieve stress on your wrists.
It will also prevent you from holding your handlebars as if your entire life depended on it. It should enable you to hold them in a relaxed manner and will minimize bad feedback from you to your bike
@@SFV4 Sources on that?
@@Mudux I think it’s Erwan Nigon (EWC champion 2019 with Kawasaki)
Due to a ski accident that left me with a weakened wrist, I started to sit further back, squeeze the gas tank with my legs and use my abs to relieve my wrist during breaking phases. But since nobody was talking about this, I never really paid attention to this, until…
I watch all races of EWC on the French Eurosport channel.
They always invite team managers, former EWC racers and even Eric de Seynes (president Yamaha Motor Europe) to talk about different aspects of EWC. So, it’s always interesting to watch the races, listen to their comments about the races and the insights…
And during the 2023 or the 2024, one of the former EWC racers they invited (possibly Erwan Nigon) casually stated that if a racers doesn’t use it’s abs during breaking phases he won’t last past his 1st stint (EWC teams are made of 3 racers, each riding approximately for 1h, before passing the bike to the next team member. These 1h phases are called stints).
If you watch the High Side channel, you will also sometimes hear Adrian Parassol telling people to use their abs (without giving any context for why to do so)
Adrian Parassol is also a EWC racer, but in the SST category of EWC.
Don’t underestimate SST racers as some are better than EWC racers.
You and F9 are the best mc content of the interweb.
informative and straightforward as ever 👍
Except the Ryan F9 advocated for removal of road armour and completely mis represented the researchers conclusion and message to the riding community.
@@cameronmale83 Yeah, he will never live that down. In subsequent videos, he has sorta hinted at that. OTOH, I don't watch his videos for riding technique. He covers a lot of other topics and covers them well. For technique, I watch here.
When I saw “when to overlap throttle and brake” in the title, I thought you’d lost your marbles 😆 glad to see you haven’t!
I thought the same thing!😆
7:35 I’ve done it before on country backroads. My glove got stuck on the throttle as I was applying front brake preparing for an interesting tight corner. Suddenly the bike feels like a miserable block of wood under you with a mind of its own. You instantly go from experienced rider to first day novice. Not a good experience. It doesn’t happen often thankfully. I’ve raised my palm and have even pulled in my clutch to kill the power to the rear wheel. I need to check my gloves. Great topic. 👍
Very, very well articulated, not a single unneeded word. Riding at the age of 70, 55 years and your description of bike evolution is spot on. Segment about MotoGP riders is fascinating. I am likely to never "track day" these skills, but I just plain love riding to the best ability I can muster. Thanks!
Thank you. I love track riding but my goal has never been all out speed. I want precision and control.
@@CanyonChasers I take at least one high level course a year…more if I can make it happen. For the past several years this high level course has been on the track with California Superbike (mostly)or Yamaha Champion Riding School. Benefits of spending track time with expert instructors can’t be replicated IMO.
Oh wow. All this time I thought I was doing it poorly. I never overlapped front brake and throttle mostly because I was bad at it. It also nagged me "Why would you want to have both tires' grip needs fight each other?" "One pushing forward, the other pushing back" "it's only a matter of time before one beats the other and you either wash the front or the rear steps out.
But I still thought that's what the pros did for some unknown reason.
I don't apply any rear brake when riding hard, find it a bit too much to do when I still working on other aspects of riding. I may add it later.
Right now tho, I do roll off the throttle completely then start applying brake before entering a turn, begin my lean and slowly release brake the deeper I lean into the turn. then I start applying throttle until I feel the bike stabilize to the radius of the turn. Once I see the exit, then I go hard on the throttle as I being to stand up the bike. Sometimes I lean my body off the bike further off the bike on this stage to allow the bike to get more vertical faster.
That explanation is clearly beyond debate and clears up all misunderstanding.
I personally am not a fast rider, but I do want to understand the dynamics of riding and wish to be accurate in it's execution on the road. It's just good form.
I think that should be everyone's goal. It's mine. Speed is a byproduct. I'm chasing the greatest levels of precision and control. Thats what makes the sport fun for me.
You don't have to be a peg scraper to benefit from trail braking etc, understanding smooth riding increases your enjoyment and safety 😊
Many years ago (1979) I used to work on Tasmania's West Coast. The roads up around there were (and are) twisty, bumpy and usually wet. I was riding a Honda CBX1000 with Pirelli Phantom tyres. I found that maintaining a light rear brake pressure as I dropped to 2nd or 1st gear for hairpins prevented any chain snatch and gave a smoother ride. But never the front brake...And as an aside, my BMW R1250GS has electronics that prevent throttle opening during heavy braking (even if I roll the throttle on it will have no effect).
Didn't realise even 1-2% of throttle when overlapped with front braking can be dangerous. Thanks Dave!
It’s not as bad when going slow on a warm dry day, but when things get a little spicy,it gets exciting really quickly.
Ditto, but it makes perfect sense when explained.
It is so important to close the throttle fully while applying the front brakes to avoid the bike wanting to go wide entering the corners.
If braking the front wheel and trying to accelerate the rear, one is going to lose grip because they are working against each other. It's like trying to slide your feet apart away from each other.
If I brake the rear very gently it can help the bike pull into the corner better. But there's a limit because too much brake means a skid. So it's very gentle. Try it at low speeds on a low risk place, if you want to.
If you play with a toy motorcycle on your table and grip the rear wheel with your fingertip you'll feel the bike tip slightly forward and put a little more weight on the front. Again there's a limit to how much the front can take.
As a kid I learned some of this on grass and dirt. I think a rider technique school could use small lightweight road tyre bikes on grass to teach riders how to control, feel, slide, correct, all while under 15mph.
@@Google_Does_Evil_Now Excellent comment! I love it!
This is the best explanation of trail braking I've seen. More folks need to see this!
I appreciate you saying that - glad it was helpful!
@@CanyonChasers you're welcome!
I sometimes coach riders to “imagine” they are overlapping the front brake and throttle to achieve the smoothest transitions from the brakes to the throttle. Think of it as taking up the 2mm of throttle slack as you simultaneously release the front brake. You never actually have the two opposing forces fighting each other. This was a precision technique we used more when throttles had cables and were adjusted with the factory recommended free play.
Ken! How are you, man? Obviously this is an excellent comment! It's interesting how the fly-by-wire throttles have changed things. Not sure if you've noticed but a lot of them (not our aprilia's) are programmed so that as soon as you activate the front brake, the computer shuts off the throttle. I always hated a slopply throttle cable - and I'm really impressed with how good the modern fly-by-wire throttles are.
Great stuff Dave! Really appreciate drawing the historical context into this. Too many people forget that a lot of the "common sense" info out there is based on decades long past and our machines have exponentially evolved in the past
It’s incredible how much things have changed. Nothing makes me appreciate how far we’ve come quite like spending time on a vintage bike.
@@CanyonChasers How vintage is a 2000 Ninja 500r running on street touring radials? It's a 35 year old design at this point.
So which wheel powers the motorbike on modern bikes? Which wheel steers a modern bike? Which tyre is larger on modern bikes?
Oh yeh, its EXACTLY the same as bikes from decades ago!!
The fundamentals of motorcycle dynamics have not changed since they got rid of girder forks: the rear wheel goes up and down in one plane, the chain pulls the rear wheel and affects the rear suspension, the trail reduces when the front forks compress, the bike stands up and runs wide when you start braking while leant over (on the vast majority of bikes) etc etc.
Sure, suspension has improved massively, as has tyre technology and this allows you to get away with things that would have slapped you on the floor in decades past.
But that emphatically does NOT mean that the original techniques are crap and irrelevant and it does not mean that learning to properly read the road can be substituted for this clickbait fad!!
Re: minute 7:35 issue , I've had my very seasoned gloves catch and keep the throttle open while reaching for and applying the front brakes more times than I care to remember. When it happens, I've simply learned to quickly lift my palm higher and all is well again. I also bought new gloves.
Thanks for clarifying this "brottle" issue. It answered a question I've mulled over for several years.
Suggestion: Could you reach out to some of the more respected influencers on UA-cam (Kevin - MC Rider, Andrei - Moto Control, Ryan - F9 etc.) and collectively, start replacing the "trail braking" terminology with "pressurizing" which I like and feel is far more descriptive.
Thanks for a great video Dave!
The Champ School Team has and has been for years - you can see the results of those efforts. :(
I quit following MCRider as I disagree with many of the techniques he espouses. I don't pretend to be an expert rider but a lot of the advice on Utube is way off. I have been using "trail braking" for decades. I am self taught and found that this technique worked very for me. Also I rode early Airheads with lots of flywheel effect and the torque reaction also had to taken into account especially when accelerating out of a turn.
Another great explanation of physics. The opposing forces at speed are going to confuse and upset the bike which is a big no no. Even as slight as those inputs may be, now the rider needs the bike to turn and the bike says nope, I wanna go straight.
I was one of those confused riders out there until I found this channel. I'm so grateful for your knowledge, and your willingness to share it.
Thank you!
this is exactly the question I've had lately as i'm practicing in my 2nd year of riding; thanks for the timely and clear answer!
Awesome! Thank you and keep working on it. Riding well is the most rewarding thing I've ever worked on. The "wins" are so satisfying!
Great video with the most direct and clear explanation of trail braking and how to use it. As both a road rider and a precision police rodeo rider, the front trail braking technique, combined with judicious timing of the rear brake overlapped with throttle is something I am trying to master. This video helps my understanding of both techniques.
I grew up on Cross-ply (bias-ply) tyres, dodgy brakes and suspension. Sorts the men from the boys, especially on the oily, diesel soaked, wet roads and roundabouts in 1970-80s London. They should be mandatory as part of the test/permit to ensure you can handle a motorcycle.
Those 500cc, 2-stroke race bikes (and the RD-350s and RD-500s - they weren't available in the US) were nearly unrideable!
Overlapping throttle and front brake really does get your attention real fast! And yes, your explanation of how it happens is how it happened to me.
Thank you for what you do. Your explanations make the most sense and confirm what I have been doing and telling other riders. Keep up the good work.
Awesome and thanks for sharing the good news of trail braking! We can make a difference!
Thank you for this. I’m 60 and wondered about trail braking. I guess I’ve been doing it ok all along.
If you’re 60 and still riding you’re probably doing it right!
Amazing! I went through ChampU this past Spring, and I'm hoping to get signed up for Champ Street this coming season. As a result of ChampU, I find myself saying (sometimes out loud), "go to the brakes when you're nervous, trail off the brake until you're happy with speed and direction, maintain neutral throttle, add throttle when you can see the exit and take away lean angle." I even do it in the car...sorry practice motorcycle. ChampU should be required learning for new riders. Completely changed how I ride and I'm so much more comfortable and happy now!
I do the exact same thing. Hell, I do the exact same thing playing racing video games. We can practice the fundamentals everywhere!
You can not teach brand new riders trailbraking. If you watch most new riders, they grab fistfuls of front brake. They need a little time to develop the feel for brake release (you will learn this if you go to YCRS). I wish they could be taught trailbraking from the start. It would save a LOT of injuries and live.
We've been teaching trail braking to brand new riders for years with amazing outcomes. It's more intuitive. You trail brak on your bicycle, your car, your boat, your airplane. What we've discovered is when riders aren't told they must end all braking before corner tip in, and they can just keep slowing until _they_ are happy with their speed, there are no panic GRAB moments, because they never get scared.
Such a brilliant topic and astutely covered Dave. Can't thank you enough for the knowledge you've instilled in me, I can proudly say I'm a lot better than I was before..
That's what I'm here for! Glad you're getting better at riding.
THANK YOU! I can't believe that I had to recently comment on a FB reel where the "expert rider" was talking about the overlap of braking & accelerating during trail braking. He even drew a diagram showing the braking, accelerating & the period of overlap in between. There were new riders on there thanking him for teaching them the "right way" to trail brake. 🙄 I hope those riders read my comments & realized the dude didn't know what he was talking about.
Thanks and thank you for stepping into the fray. That’s the only way we’re going to make a change.
Over 80% of new riders completely leave the sport within two years. The only way to save our sport is to combat these bad riding techniques that are scary (making the sport less fun) and legitimately getting riders hurt.
So how do you know that 'expert rider' was wrong and that this ' expert rider' is correct? 😂
(NB FTAOD I'm absolutely not advocating overlapping throttle with FRONT brake)
@@storminben A: Physics, B: Commonsense & C: 45+ years of riding experience (including racing production & superbikes).
Fantastic video, thank you. That really helped my riding. I really like how simple you made trail braking at the end of the video - that’s the best explanation I’ve seen, and you did it in two sentences!
Thank you. It really gets muddled, right?
I always recommend your trail braking video. This is another fantastic explanation of people’s misunderstanding of terminology. Love Pedro! I will never encounter anything like what happens on GP track. I’ll be sharing this video!
Thank you. Glad you like it!
Excellent video. Totally cleared this up for me. Watching this I felt like it was a very good use of time.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I can certainly vouch for not overlapping throttle and front brake. A couple of years ago I installed one of those "cruise control" pads that allows you to ease your grip on the throttle. While I was getting used to it I quite often went to brake and accidentally activated the throttle as I hadn't adjusted my technique. It was REALLY scary and out of control. I never totally lost it, but there was a couple of times I came close. I got used to it and like the thing now, but it was touch & go whether I removed it.
Wow ….this might be one of the most informative videos on riding technique I have seen , one to watch repeatedly.👍
Was clicking on this expecting you to arguing for this thing i had never heard of and (from trackday experience like you described) sounded bonkers. Happy to see this is not the case.
(Proper) trailbraing is something i think everybody on a trackday learns quite fast (esp. here in Germany, where most slow groups have a mandatory group instruction part).
Throttle and rear brake is something taught in driving license courses here (mandatory in Europe for motorcycle riding incl. tests) to gain control in slow situations (slow slalom, where you are not allowed to go faster than walking pace).
Throttle and front brake just makes no sense from a chassis dynamic standpoint and you quite nicely explained the few motoGP-Edgecases it might help. Chapeau!
this really helped clear entry up Thanks!
Glad it helped!
Hey Dave, love the videos and the topics you do them on. Especially since here in salt Lake winter has just barely arrived, this is the furthest into winter I have ridden in a decade.
It's been weirdly warm, right?
Very good information. I noticed something with my new bike that is very annoying to me. I recently bought a 2024 Harley Davidson Road Glide and it comes with the selectable ride modes. One of those is a rain mode and another sport mode. I typically leave mine in sport mode and have my engine breaking capabilities on Max. But I noticed a couple of times when I switched to rain mode and I come off of the throttle and onto the front brake, I can feel the bike try to buck me because essentially the rain mode is reducing engine brakeing because it thinks it’s safer on slippery surfaces. But it’s doing this by adding a little bit of throttle to reduce that engine breaking. It is essentially the same thing is throttle front brake overlap. And it is definitely caused me to pucker a couple of times going into a turn. I no longer use the rain mode at all.
Thats interesting. So some of the modern superbikes allow you to turn down engine braking, including my Aprilia. It does it by just spritzing a wee bit of fuel into the rear cylinders. But it's never been so agressive that it felt like it was pushing the front brake. Yikes!
Thanks, I'll share that with Harley friends. Yikes indeed! I'm of two minds about all the 'new' tech, especially on bikes. We recently got a 21 Outback, the screen dependant functions plus some of the 'safety' features are not my favorite things.
Great video, thanks. When I was a rider training instructor in Ontario Canada in the 1990s, the concept of trail braking was new (to me, anyway), and it never had anything to do with the front brake, only the rear. I'm astonished that the front brake version of the story ever started.
Right! As a rider coach, how many new students have you watched crash when they tried accelerating against the front brake?
@CanyonChasers The whole point was to get them to not use the throttle and front brake together.
I love riding in winters because it's easier to get feedback on my mistakes. The information you share about the physics, how things work, and trail braking especially is why I've been safe riding during winters. Thank you :)
There's nothing like practicing in a low grip environment to really, really improve our skillset. Probably more than anything else, actually.
Thank you for the clarification. Your videos are very helpful!
I'm happy it helped.
It still depends… are you trying to do a burnout?!? Great in-depth answer and explanation! Thank you!!!
How could I have possibly forgotten the burnout!?!
Accidentally overlapped my throttle and front brake going into T1 on UMC West a few years ago for the same glove issue.
I think my leathers are still puckered from it.
Nicely done and spot on!
Nice topic thanks .....I gather the latest race electronics will sometimes reduce engine brake by cracking the throttle during deceleration. This is NOT driving the front forward but rather it's reducing the magnitude of rear brake from engine braking so your point still holds (but interesting tho).
What’s more. A lot of the new bikes coming out with fly by wire throttles are programmed so that as soon as you touch the front brake, the throttle shuts off, regardless. Like, that’s how bad Brottle is. Engineers have had to program around it.
Thanks for the in-depth explanation!
Another part of confusion around trail breaking is how to perform it when your bike has aggressive engine braking at close throttle.
From watching your other videos, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the recommendation is to go 1-2 gears higher to minimize engine braking since there's more control with trail braking than there is with engine braking.
Assuming the rider is going fast enough to not lug the engine at the higher gear, it should make trail braking easier to perform.
May consider making a video or short about this if people continue to ask.
I actually say the exact same thing in many other videos. But maybe I make one super specific.
@@CanyonChasersI ride a KTM super Duke 1290 R. A lot of torque with throttle on, but also massive engine brake. How does this effect the geometry of my bike vs an online four going in to a turn an closer to apex. Safest to use a higher gear? What about on track, are there any benefits to be practicing? I've experienced loss of rear traction (it surly wakes you up😅), when a bit too abrupt off throttle on transition between quick turns on cold tires.
Great video, giving details and context on simple physics but often over thought action.
I go into a lot of those things in my over-slowing video ua-cam.com/video/M5ljhx0qTAM/v-deo.htmlsi=oNwp4W80Ipt5S3ta Relying on engine braking makes very subtle changes to the geometry. Rear brake helps keep the back of the bike on the ground.
It may be because I grew up on two strokes before migrating to big V twins (with no slipper clutch) so two fingers permanently covering the clutch is automatic. This allows me to moderate the engine braking by slipping the clutch where necessary
As always, fantastic video. Thanks for posting!
I really appreciate you watching, glad you liked it!
Hi, you are an amazing teacher, and I have emense respect for you and your knowledge.
I have a question.
Why is the motorcycle steering flaw not being corrected?
From birth, we learn how to control our body, stand, turn and move forward. These are the first rules of motion we learn.
Example.
Stand directly behind someone and guide them left and right with your hands on their elbows, shoulders or hips. They will move correctly as instructed. However a motorcycle will destabilise and turn the other way!
They call this target fixation, I think this is a flaw in the design, causing people to crash. With basic instinct skills learned from our first steps in childhood.
I know training and practice helps but instinctive behaviour over powers and trumps training.
I look forward to your thoughts
There are 'backwards" steering bicycles. Nobody can manage to ride them. You may want to watch this video; ua-cam.com/video/j8JEgkKMrcs/v-deo.htmlsi=pZVO4lKGbN_Qx2p9
To me, "target fixation" is the phenomenon where you're steering instinctively towards where your eyes are focused.
Look at a rock on the road, you'll hit it.
Look beside the rock and miss it.
Focus on a tree, rock or memorial cross at the apex of a corner and you'll find yourself steering at it, with unpleasant results unless you quickly correct.
Look past obstacles, look down the road, not immediately in front of you.
Ride Safe👋
👽
i have been riding for almost 40 years, i have tried "brottle". It did not work well for me. It makes me lose confidence in physics facts. I have been keeping to myself for a very long time, not to argue with youngsters who almost never need the rear brake. Thank you for making things right. I would rather fall on slide or drift when failing corner than thumbling. i prefer engine braking and rear brake overlaps, it just syncs anywhere slow or fast speed cornering. easy to teach muscle memory. and don't' anyone feel awkward or loose some touch on throttle if you do front brake trailing corner even 1 or 2 fingers involve. it would be nice in near future without clutch and exchange to front brake to trailing front better. like mountain bike set up, left lever is front brake 😵💫
Great explanation, thank you
With regards to gloves catching/activating the throttle under braking - I've had this happen, but ONLY on bikes with a throttle-by-wire system. It seems to take such little effort to start opening the throttle on these bikes, compared to older style cable actuated throttles, that it's become a far too common occurrence...
Here's the good news for you - on all the new "fly by wire" Electric throttles, the ECU disengages the throttle when the front brake is activated. Those expert riders realize overlapping is so bad, they are programming the bikes to make it impossible.
@@CanyonChasers That's great to hear! The worst instance(s) for me happened on my old 2016 BMW K1600GTL. That thing was such a torque monster, that it could easily overpower all but the most heavy braking efforts. A couple times I barrelled into corners waaay too hot because the bike just didn't seem to want to slow down - before I realized that I was doing it. Not fun on any machine, of course, but on an 800lb touring bike it came dangerously close to a "CODE BROWN" moment 😨
Thank you
Excellent explanation. Very valuable for new drivers.
This is a great discussion and I'm actually pretty relieved that trail braking is not what I was thinking. When I have worked on trail braking at track classes, I immediately decided it was not for me because as a street rider, managing both throttle and braking with a very complex (by the standard of normal vehicle control design) single hand compound motion is nothing I'd ever want to rely on in the chaos of the street. Increased probability of incorrect input and then having that one incorrect input affect TWO critical control inputs - just sounds like a terrible idea start to finish.
Right!?! It simply doesn't work, and I suspect that any rider who claims they are doing it, actually arent. Case in point, I confronted an "influencer" who advocated for the brottle method after following him around on track for a few laps and could tell he clearly wasn't overlapping the two controls. He said, (and i'm not kidding) "Oh, I don't do it because I'm afraid - but if I did, I'd be so much faster" 🙄
Thanks Dave for all these videos, they keep us safe on road, and improving our ride making it more enjoyable. Can you please expkain about gear shift before corner, as most of the time as it is suggested to do down shift needed, but the motorbike slow down no need of trail braking, but as we roll off the throttle, the bike slow down and sometimes we need to accelerate before the apex, I am not a race biker, but like to enjoy the maximum
Thats a great idea! I'll add it to the list!
Thanks for a definitive answer to this question
Glad it was helpful!
appreciate the context for the answer. great video
You bet!
Thank You for a great explanation. And i even use front brake trailbraking when going downhill mountain roads twisties at speeds over 40mph on a bicycle. LAst ride with friends i outran them downhill solely because of my motorcycle lines and braking techniques.
Love it. I’m a bicycle nerd too and the exact same physics apply.
been practicing trail braking on my 67 Norton Atlas, this explanation very much appreciated. Also have 67 bonny which is horrible by comparison as you say!
Thanks Dave. You're my #1 go to for info and you have changed me to be a better and safer rider these last few years. Just to clarify: if you have drum brakes in the front you should not trail brake? I recently got a vintage bike and I ride windey hills a lot.
I mean, I don't know that I couldn't trail brake at this point. I'd just say to start off slow and ease your way into it. My old Bonneville with the fancy-dancy "double leading shoe" drum brakes that were so terrible, I never went very fast on the thing so it wasn't really much of a concern, but that was a lot of years ago.
That makes sense. I take that exact strategy of starting slow and easing. I also have no desire to go very fast so it's probably good.
Thanks again.
I have only one big question. How can I practice trail braking in order to get used to the sequence of: roll off the throttle, brake brake brake and then slowly releasing the brake as I lean into the corner on the streets?
I mean, at legal speeds I don't need that kind of technique because of the engine braking, and using just a little bit of front brake for wider corners is enough.
Is this technique only for higher paced motorcycling?
It’s a technique that’s best for blind corners. If you are happy with your speed then no problem, right. But there is no reason why we have to be completely done braking before we tip in.
I go into what you’re wondering about in detail here: STOP Over-Slowing Into Corners
ua-cam.com/video/M5ljhx0qTAM/v-deo.html
@@CanyonChasers thank you for the recommendation. I will definitely try this out once the season starts. I recall doing the "enter the corner in a higher gear", and it really felt smoother and I did not know why. Will apply it once more. Thank you once again!
I doubt I'll ever be near a track but I still consider you the best. Well said, masterful video, the subject obviously deserved its own . And i notice how many comments you reply to, that's a class act.
Thanks so much! Legitimately, I believe trail braking has more relevance on the street because of how wildly unpredictable it can be. I want every possible tool at my disposal to make it to the exit of every coner I enter, right?
@@CanyonChasersRight indeed. It's made a big difference to me in corner comfort and safety, and best it of all, fun!
Thanks, clearly explained and very helpful
Greetings from the PPRC great video today. You have the best info videos on u tube.🇺🇸🏍️
Thanks to all you fine riders from the PPRC! I love you guys!
Great job as usual Dave. Very helpful.
Glad you enjoyed it
7:35 yep, this has happened to me. I crashed on Siberia (turn 6) at Phillip Island because I had the throttle stuck on while trying to brake.
Just after I realised what was happening, it was too late and I ran off straight into the gravel. It didn't help that the lack of control made me target fixate, which sealed my fate.
Excellent info and communication skills👍🏼
Awesome video! Excellent content. It is just common sense really. Best video I have seen on this subject. Best!
Wow! Thank you!
5:38: they were still doing that at the early stages of MotoGP at Laguna Seca, when accelerating while going uphill to prevent the bike from flipping over
Using a little rear brake
Another school day Dave. Now I understand the principles because you've exploded the myth I'm sure my riding will improve. Stay safe and ride well. 🤓 🏍️
Awesome! Thanks!
wat a great vid!!! Evidence and credentials. Thank You!!
Overlapping rear brake and throttle also really helps snatchy throttle (euro5) bikes I found out. Smoothens the transition to acceleration and keeps everything much more stable. I never mastered using my rear brake on the racetrack though. But the right suspension balance and idle revs made it work.
Another trick is to be a gear higher. Less power but smoother throttle.
7:55: to prevent this from happening, I put my fingers on the break lever and then quickly lift my palm to let the throttle close from itself before holding the shut off throttle again and applying break pressure.
Then I do, what Sylvain Guintoli calls the wrist reload before accelerating.
It’s easy to do as when you start to accelerate, there should only be residual break pressure. So releasing nothing, doesn’t unsettle the bike.
I am no expert, but by doing it correctly in a timely manner isn’t hard.
It won’t turn you into a racer, but into a more confident and relaxed rider
Excellent comment! I love it! Freaking Sylvain. His channel is so good!
Excellent video. Thanks for clarifying!
Another Excellent Video.
Question:
Load the front tire increases patch/surface size area and that is why we have more grip?
The additional Force of the tire on the road surface is what increases grip.
The shape of the patch contributes to a better grip distribution.
The surface area of the patch has little to no role on determining grip?
When the front is loaded: does the bike want to go to the outside?
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Sorta - This is getting into Slip Angle, which gets really complicated fast.
4. Sorta - "pressure" or weight has a bigger impact, but a larger contact patch is capable of ultimately more potential load.
5. No, with a few exceptions. When load goes to the front, the forks compress, which reduces trail, and makes the bike want to turn. So it helps the bike change direction - this is the part about bikes working the way expert riders ride. However, the exceptions are bikes without traditional forks, like BMW telelever where trail increases as the forks compress, or abruptly grabbing the brake mid corner. Abruptness causes the tire to, basically, fold underneath the rim and deform, and inertia wants to push the bike in the direction of travel - so this is why we try to initiate braking before tip in, and if we can't, we sneak the brake on instead of "grab" the brake.
@@CanyonChasers Appreciated. This provides some important clarity. Good examples. It is nitty-gritty, but I am still kinda stuck on what exactly is what...
In engineering, the friction index between contacting surfaces and the applied contact force determine resulting grip of friction force. To be clear: Surface area does not play a role at all in this equation. But for tire/road contact the mechanics are somehow different? Surface area plays a role?
The contact patch area slips more and more as you go from from the center of the tire/road contact patch to the outside. Otherwise stated, the patch center has minimal/no slip and patch outer edge maximum slip. A thin tire has a more rectangular contact patch shape. The fatter size of the tire the more it approaches a circular shape. Circular shape is more ideal offering better grip distribution. I am making assumptions here and I may be wrong.
Point 5, from what I understood from Keith Code was that chopping the gas mid corner (or abruptly using front brake) leans the bike forward, loading the front end and causing it to go wide.Yes, trail decreases as the front dives. But that only makes the bike handling more responsive/twitchy?
Sounds like you got it more than not. Point 5, what we're not keying in on is the abrupt part. chopping thottle or abruptly braking mid-corner is not good. We want to go to great lenghts to avoid it because, yeah, for most bikes/tire combinations, the bike is going to want to stand up and not turn.
What we actually want to do mid corner, is not chop the throttle or abruptly brake, but gently roll off the throttle to the front brake. In other video's I talk a lot more about the first and last 5% of a control. Those are the most important moments in how we interact with that control. It prevents all the things that Code is talking about. But, when we sneak the brake on, for a given lean angle, the radius of the corner will tighten, every single time.
I literally cannot remember which video I go into this at detail and show it, but you can see for yourself, because that means more than anything else. Find a big open parking lot or something, ride around in a circle at a steady speed, steady lean angle - be honest with the experiment - now accelerate and see what the bike does - it'll stop turning and run wide. Same circle a second time, same speed and all that, only this time slowly roll off the throttle (keeping the same lean angle) and watch what the bike does. Get back into our circle again, now roll off the throttle to the front brake - keeping the same lean angle for as long as possible. If you are brave, try chopping the throttle or grabbing the brake, it's the abruptness that gets us in trouble more than anything else. We don't want to be afraid of our controls, we want to be afraid of abruptness.
@@CanyonChasers Clear. Gaining a better idea on the mechanics involved and how the bike behaves in certain (niche) conditions is important to me.
Much appreciate your explanations. Indeed, a parking lot is probably the best way to find out about the mechanics involved.
"But, when we sneak the brake on, for a given lean angle, the radius of the corner will tighten, every single time. " That is what i need to hear.
In motogymka/supermoto I will apply hard (rear) braking, squat the bike while turning my head in the opposite riding direction, looking into the bend. From the outside going in I then wrap my bike around the bend. For the tightest bends I am actually turning my steering at one point. But at no point am I doing this in an abrupt fashion. Same applies on track. Except now using the front brake at much higher speeds and very different bikes. Come in hard on the front brake, load the front, ease it up smoothly as you role through the corner and then start to accelerate as you line the bike up to exit. I expect that the gas ON point is before I am going into the tightest section of the corner.
But at no point will use the front brake while still on the gas. Years ago I was told not to do this.
Will need to review your past videos.
Thanks again. :)
Great stuff. I look forward to watching r/motorcycles continue to argue about the subject for years to come.
Lovely advice. Safe and clear👌
A very good and nescessary video. You nailed it perfectly 🎉
Thank you!
Thanks, especially appreciated the history ☺️
BTW rear brake while trail braking is also definitely a thing off-road..
Great content Dave!
Thanks for focusing on this question. As I began to try trail braking, I immediately felt the advantage of front loading and safer control. However, the engine braking of my Ducati 1200 Multistrada typically slows the bike to a minimum speed, making any braking unnecessary. The only exception to this is going down steep hills or at entry speeds that would be way above the speed limit.
So I began to do a little “brottle” just to get the advantage of trail braking on intermediate speed level turns. So… that’s wrong.
I guess trail braking might only be accessible if you don’t have strong engine braking.
What do you think?
Thats wrong and risky. Check out this video where I go into detail about your exact scenario; ua-cam.com/video/M5ljhx0qTAM/v-deo.htmlsi=ldN4icGagCi9nIKy The solution is actually pretty easy.
@@CanyonChasers Thanks! I’m so glad you recognized this problem and made a video about it. Nailed it.
Hi Dave,
I have another question What is best way if we overslowed for a large radius corner? Also how can we avoid overslowing
I have an entire video on this topic; ua-cam.com/video/M5ljhx0qTAM/v-deo.htmlsi=oNwp4W80Ipt5S3ta
@@CanyonChasers Thank you so much. I need to practice this
Great video thank you
Dave is a treasure. But I'm curious.....which riding book recommends front brake and throttle use at the same time? Twist 2?
Thank you for clearing that up!!!!!!!!!
If you are mid corner and start applying throttle the weight transfer, naturally, is to the rear, relieving pressure from the front wheel. If you apply rear brake at the same time then the counter-torque through the rear caliper torque arm presses the front wheel down, counteracting the initial light front end scenario. This can be useful to stop the front end from bouncing up under throttle in the corner, when the lengthening of the forks under acceleration would change the bikes handling
It wastes fuel and brakes, but that's all.
Hi Dave,tx,great advice as always.
The "drifting" motors and street bikes are overlapping throttle and front brake to keep the rear smoking aren't they ???
Yeah I know it's not making them fast but it is spectacular for sure...
I am very unlikely to try it but for those who want to good luck!!
Yes, and lets not foget smoking burnouts!
Trailing the back brake can make a big difference in control when doing slow hairpins 2-Up with luggage too 👍
Exactly right!
Thanks for CORRECTLY referring to US129 as DEALS GAP [7:05] vs. all those names referring to a mythical scale covered fire-breathing lizard.
I first rode Deals Gap in 1976 on a brand new Yamaha XT500C.
Complete with square block trials tires, a 6 vac 35 watt headlight, floppy front fender and a 2.3 gallon tank.
That was after riding it from Wilmington, NC (about 400 miles one-way back then) to camp at the Esso station / motel now rebuilt as the "Resort".
Good times!
I realize that I was tougher then, than I am now at 67.😂
Oh and after that bike was stolen, I got a 1995 XT600E (still have and ride), had a 1992 TDM 850 (also stolen) and many other bikes in between.
Now I'm on a 2015 Super Tenere' (XTZ12EFR or XTZ1200??), hence the nom deplume, xtphreak).
Ride Safe👋
👽
Oh man, The TDM 850! One of the greatest bikes of that era. Totally inapporpriatly nicknamed the Tedium. That bike was so far ahead of its time.
Thank Christ that was never taught in australia , it’s madness, but getting on the front brake having your fingers getting into position to pull the brake lever as your closing the throttle to reduce your reaction time, then picking up the throttle as quick as you can after getting off the brake
What about twisty highways I live in Oregon with a lot of blind corners. Once I have my speed set I maintain throttle but also apply 1-2% of brake in case of a situation and I have to brake fast mid corner or just after
So I not be applying any pressure and just covering? I assumed the slight pressure wouldn’t matter and help against the grab reflex because your already there so it’s easier to increase steady pressure
So first. I ADORE riding in Oregon. So many amazing roads. So yeah, those roads are so slow and so tight. Fantastic. Don't get caught up in "setting speed." Thats not how we want to think about it. I'm currently working on a video that will go into this question in more detail so stay tuned. Hopefully it'll be done next week.
Every motorcyclist should watch this video.
I found myself doing this is response (I think) to my Yamaha's underdamped front end. I only realised what was happening when I melted the edges of the front the tire. I mistakenly thought the chassis was just prone to understeer.
I had a ❤heavy sport tourer which seemed to run wide, I learned to use pegs and rear brake for extra turn in but still ran out mid corner. Then I heard about suspension set-up, a little extra rear preload and problem solved. Physics?!
Thanks Dave
What was the book that published the incorrectly understood definition?
On My tiger800 XR If the brake is pressed even little the throttle does not respond. I learned it one day when the handguard got loose on a corner exit and it was just a little pressing the brake.😅 It is written in the owner's manual.
This is becoming much more common on new bikes. Thats how bad "brottle" is - engineers are designing bikes so it's impossible to overlap the throttle and front brake.
Tnx for another fantastic video!
Since the first time you suggested the use of this technique, I try to inplement it but I have a problem with that motorcycle slow down too much when the throttle is off and I'm on the break ( especially on my Vstrom), the speed goes down so fast that I almost don't need to use front break. Can you tell me is there some difference, in using the technique, between engine configurations? Because on my friends inline4, I don't have that problem and far more control. Hope you'll have time to clarify this because many ppl that I asked told me to overlap neutral gas and break. Can you, please, clarify this. Tnx for fantastic content on your channel!
On big torquey bikes, just try staying a gear to two higher. In my video "Stop Overslowing" i cover this exact thing in detail. ua-cam.com/video/M5ljhx0qTAM/v-deo.htmlsi=oNwp4W80Ipt5S3ta
@CanyonChasers , tnx
Clocked more than half a million miles mostly on old BMW flat twins and use trail braking (with the rear brake!) regulary. When a curve tightens and more lean angle ist needed, I softly engage the rear brake to slow down. Because these bikes sink into their suspension when you close the throttle which might cause the cylinder to hit the ground. I also used this technique to smoothen out mid corner throttle response of rough or aggressive engines like the older Ducati my wife once rode. Throttle and front brake sounds so absurd I wouldn't even have tried it. Might do for Acosta and Stoner in some rare occasions, but surely not for average me. Oh, wait, tried to celebrate a burn out once...😅
I'm beginning to feel that at least two topics related to motorcycling have been sufficiently explained on various UA-cam channels. They're trail braking and counter steering. Trail braking because it can be explained in under 10 minutes. Counter steering because it's obvious and anyone who's ever ridden a bicycle knows what it is.
I know, right. Yet, every video I make on the topic performs well, even years later.
@@CanyonChasers You'd think the subject would be put to rest but people keep telling each other the same old lies. People with 1000 miles of riding telling people with 250 miles of riding what's what.
Overlapping throttle and REAR brake is much easier, and steadier. This is taught in the BMW Street Survival School. Previously- was using front brake + throttle. Hard to coordinate. And yeah- my glove also balled up like yours.
My 1st ever track day that nightmare scenario happened and I didn't save it 😂😂😂😂
I was 17 saved up all season for this, and 2 hot lap and bam
Glad you made it out okay!
@CanyonChasers 17 year,old on a gixxer 750 lol something was bound to go squirrley 🤣
Going to be the one guy in class that raises my hand. Any time you are going down the road and close the throttle (without pulling the clutch), you will get some random amount of engine braking to the rear tire, which is the equivalent of some amount of rear brake. If you slowly bring the throttle back in at a rate to match natural deceleration, then there is neither acceleration nor deceleration applied to the rear tire. If accurately done like this, which may require a significant degree of skill, would not there be a benefit in precise use of the throttle to slightly overlap front tailing brake pressure as the bike nears the end of the decelerating phase of the curve? In simpler terms, the rear tire would be brought back to neutral by slight throttle as the front brake is doing the last bit of trailing off. Advantage maybe being front trail braking is held longer into the turn?
Nope. No benefit. But big risks. Think of it like this. Speed equals radius. The front brake tells the bike to slow down and turn. Maintenance throttle - exactly as you described- the radius of the turn stays the same. Acceleration - making the numbers on the speedometer get bigger - tells the bike to straighten up and go faster.
Use the right tool for the job to get the bike to do what you want or need it to do. We NEVER push the throttle against the front brake. Ever. A few pros briefly overlap in some crazy specific situations, but they NEVER push the throttle against the front brake.
@@CanyonChasers Thanks for explanation. I started riding again just over a year ago, and have watched technical motorcycle instruction vids daily ever since, including 2 of the Champ U corses. I'd estimate around 10 percent of my seat time has been training drills. I've gone the way of no throttle / brake overlap through my miles, but was never absolutely certain I clearly understood this topic.
What’s the book that got it wrong called ?
I think its Twist of the Wrist or maybe The Soft Art of Roadracing.
His name rhymes with Pee Larks, and the book name rhymes with Cotal Tontrol.
@@LisaLadyRider 😂 Thank you !
The first time my throttle didnt fully close while braking and prepping for corner entry was the first time I rode on the bike, but also under it at the same time. Bad day.
This trail braking thing is going to get a lot of people klled.
Before, we'd all just drive slower overall and be well slowed down before we entered a turn.
Now people are going to be trying to enter a turn as quickly as possible and go wide and end up in the ditch or over a guard rail.
I suspect your understanding of trail braking is still incomplete. Trail braking is about braking. It’s about entering corners slower (not faster).
@@CanyonChasers Or, you could just slow down and enter the corner slower to begin with. I think your understanding of driving slower is still incomplete.
Okay. But how slow is slow enough? 10mph? 5mph? The idea that I have to be completely off the brake before tip in isn't a safety thing - it's a concept based on technolgy from the '50s. What if I get it wrong? What if there's something unexpected? Why is continuing to slow down so I'm prepared for the inevatability that I might need to really, really slow down, or even stop mid corner considerd "dangerous"? You trail brake on your bicycle, in your car, in a boat, in a plane. But why not on a motorcycle?
Keep in mind that entering corners so slow that there's a long line of frustrated cars stacked up behind us, desperate to pass, is also posing a significant risk to our safety.