Health Champions: A Forgotten Archetype? | League of Legends
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2022
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Despite Manaless champions being all the rage when it comes to design overload, champions who make use of their health bar instead of mana as a resource to cast abilities are rarely seen nowadays, with some being phased out entirely to have outright zero cost instead. Why are HP casters no longer being made anymore? Today let's find out!
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#LoL #Health #Champions - Ігри
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I think all Darkin should be health casters, especially Aatrox, as a risk/reward for insane omnivamp. Their whole thing is absorbing new flesh to contain their semi-divine essence. Using their full power should be taxing!
Just aatrox i think because Varus is ranged so if he build lifesteal it would make his uptime too insane. I agree aatrox need a health cost and maybe health scaling, his darkin fantasy feels weird
Because aatrox is probably not enough risk/reward already
If they do that they should also reduce the grievous wounds effectiveness on Darkins specifically since they now have to use health to cast abilities.
*Cries in old Aatrox*
@@BraveLilToasty if they do that they'll have to do that to all similar champs
Vars: sees a champion description
Also Vars: *Is this a forgotten class?*
Every popular champion is a why no one plays
Every popular class is a forgotten class
Vars is always watching 👀
@@VarsVerum Gives off Bowery King vibes from John Wick 2, literally "All seeing, all knowing."
@@VarsVerum You're like the Wikipedia editor waiting to replace every "is" to "was."
Healthy champions - A forgotten archetype
Oh, I know these champs! I played Renekton a few days ago and the enemy Jayce always took my health to use his Q. That's such a weird mechanic if you ask me, and he always makes my screen gray, like wtf? Is he hacking?
Shout to you, my guy for being a renekton main in the most powercrept meta.
I like HP cost champs cuz I can relate since every time I play league I feel like I lose a bit of my health, except I don’t get it back
No Lifesteal Item in real life?
riot may have nerfed the griveous wounds ingame, but not the wounds on the players' psyche
Build bork loser
You forgot one: sion during his passive, yes, have you ever wondered why sion lasts for so long after his death on URF where health costs are greatly reduced? That is because the damage sion gets after death counts as a health cost which increases on lvl and further every time he takes damage, while he gains 100% of life steal to sustain
sometimes i died lv 3 inlane with sion and keep hitting mions and farming while dead, im able to respawn even before my health bar reaches 0 again
imagining manaless fiora: NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE
Legit 80% ban rate lol
I think HotS has an interesting take on this: Gul'dan has a mana bar, but he doesn't regen mana naturally and instead has an ability (in place of a passive) that makes him take max health damage to restore a portion of his max mana. I don't know how well this would work in League, but I always found it an interesting take on the class
"You want to keep your health as close to full as possible throughout the game"
Olaf: Does gromp last because the HP would reduce his attack speed
Using health makes the most sense on Zac and Vlad, more so on Zac. He literally drops parts of himself, then transforms it. His entire champion gimmick is that blob aspect. He physically drops his health and picks it up, perfectly executed gimmick. And on Vlad it’s similar but it’s more like he spends health BECAUSE of his lifesteal, like he has to burn hp to make his high amount of life stealing balanced
I want more health casters in the game, I feel like every manaless champion should have a different resource instead of none at all. I personally prefer health as a resource but energy champions and rage/fury champions are still healthier for the game than champions who are only limited by ability haste
Hard to play champions who are supposed to be bullet spunges when the new items make everyone burst them like crazy nowadays
Kinda. But play Shen, he works pretty well against that bullshit.
@@EruCoolGuy yeah, because shen has additional layers of defense in his kit that make him perform better (plus he also deals a lot of single target dps for a tank)
Vlad has some of the best, if not the best, anti burst ability. Mana champions can also be bursted
@@alex2005z I’d say purely stat use wise, fiora has better anti-burst. She stops all damage for a mana cost for 0.75s while vlad has his W but it cost like 12% hp. Vlads lasts longer but when I think “burst” I think less than a second, so fiora still qualifies. And since vlad loses HP so stop burst, fiora comes out on top… also vlad just slowly walks away and can be chased while fiora W slows enemy MS and AS, and if the ability cast on you would’ve CCed you it CCs the enemy, so it allows you to escape as well
@@christianmingle3394 fiora's anti burst ability has the counterplay of simply waiting for it to end. She cant move during it. She can q w, but thats still not a big distance. Vlad can use his w to run all the way to his tower since he is also played mid mostly, and mid takes like 2 seconds to walk across. Fiora's riposte is theoredically better, but there is counterplay to it, and it comes at the cost of not being able to move. Vlad's pool doesnt have the same counterplay. You simply wait for it to end and hope you have the ms to match the ghost he runs, since being a midlaner means you dont need tp. There isnt much you can do. Ganking a vlad is kind of impossible unless he is super overextended, which is much harder since he is ranged. Its less skill expression and less counterplay for the same result
This is one of the biggest reasons that I miss old Aatrox. He might have been really bad, but the dichotomy between having life steal or extra damage through self damage is so much cooler than Riven 2.0.
Glad im not the only one that thinks about this
Fun fact about old Mordekaiser; he didn't used to have ANY built-in way to regen his health costs other than his ult. The healing part of Harvester of Sorrow was added in the "Juggernaut update" where Riot gave him his initial mini-rework.
His sustainability was entirely reliant on his passive as well as "spellvamp" (remember that stat?) from items like Will of the Ancients (which was *always* the first item you built on him) and from Runes and Talents.
On your point of the "item tax" I think that it is a better part of the game than what you think. If you didn't need to itemize differently against the enemy team everyone will always build the same stuff. And in turn the only meta becomes a meta where what's the strongest is what matter and champions that synergize with that item the best are strongest.
This is why, as much as people hate the current mythic items system. For certain classes like ADCs where back in the olden times when Blood Thirster didn't have crit. It was a meta defined exclusively by BT champs when BT is strong or IE champs when IE is strong.
The current problem with Grievous wounds is that. There is so much healing and sustain that isn't the healing and sustain champions. That for a long period of time grievous wounds became the second item all of the time always.
Those grievous items should be good against team comps built around healing and sustain champs.
Anti CC Items (WHICH THERE SHOULD BE MORE OF) should be built into teams with high amounts of CC then there can be a dynamic of the item's CD and how you play. Morgana is one of the strongest but also most annoying champs to play against. The gameplay loop should just be. "Just dodge loser" which makes the Morgana freely spam Q because it isn't about any of her decision making champ peoples ability to play against her. I know there is more to her than that and there is some skill expression. But I think the meta is dog when you don't really have to consider what you build.
Teemo should be strong when you don't have red wards or scanner.
Morgana should be strong when you don't have any sort of cleanse items.
And I know people will say... "But what about summoner spells?"
Summoner spells are rather... a stagnancy problem.
There is no dynamic to them and some of them are awful at later parts of the game and some only become good at later parts of the game.
Honestly I like what they did with smite. Having an item that can help change how a spell works to suite the player/champion's wants or needs is really cool. And I would like to see more of that. Maybe by bringing back the old Boot enchantments.
Anywho If you've read through this. Thank you. And I hope you have a lovely day.
Maybe they could make boot enchantments that buff your summoner spells.
Honestly i feel like Riot's just gonna rework summoner spells at some point, they are so outdated.
thank you for putting it into words, when i got to that part of the video i was really confused as itemization is a really big part of league. if you couldn’t then the meta would just be champs that have op builds and counter picks since you can’t itemize against them. there are also champs that can build ap or ad so to say itemization shouldn’t be a thing is kinda suspect..
boot enchantment is in wild rift, in case u want to know
I feel like the whole issue with Grievous Wounds is due to a bloat in healing in the game due to items, and characters that have built in healing they shouldn't. If healing was stripped from everyone except characters like this, and enchanters, they would be able to reduce the healing those characters do to a point that is fair. Then they could remove Grievous Wounds from the game altogether. It's a stupid cycle of them buffing Grievous Wounds because certain characters abuse healing, and then when other characters underperform/are completely gutted from those changes they buff them.
Agreed. Remove Grevious Wounds and balance healing consequently.
Vars your breakdown on this cesspit of a meta is incredible
Seeing this a month after Briar came out is funny I think
12:42 I think a simple mechanic like an accelerated health cost upon repeatative use can work. Similarly to kog or kassadin's ult costs.
I was wondering what happened to this archetype so thanks for covering it.
Also Final Fantasy 13 music? Nice, Snow's theme is so good.
In hots there was a health cost character that you would probably classify as an ADC in league terms. He had an ability you could activate to make each of his auto attacks deal a bunch of extra damage at the cost of 2% max health per auto, that ability also had a passive that is exactly the same as pre-midscope olaf which is 1% attack speed per 1% missing health.
He had two healing abilities, one that took half his HP immediately and then healed it back over time (so you got a lot of attack speed immediately and then slowly regened), and then another that was a slow channel heal. His channel heal and other two abilities still cost mana so you still had to balance that as well.
One of his ultimates (each champion had two you could choose from) was a tryndamere ult and made him unkillable for 4 seconds, so in a fight when you get dropped low you just activate berserker and go to town with the enhanced autos while your ult was going and hope to kill them so you could then heal back up.
Was a very interesting champion and easily one of my favorites when I wanted to play a DPS character, if you played him right you could absolutely shred enemies and then heal back to full.
They've also got Alextraza who is a HP-cost support. You literally give your teammates a chunk of your HP when you heal them, and her self-heal is a big, cumbersome thing that she needs to get out of combat to really use effectively.
Also Gul'Dan, who doesn't regenerate mana but instead has to pay HP to restore his mana pool works as kind of a roundabout HP caster.
My boy Zuljin the actually well designed tryndamere
@@kevingriffith6011 i swear Hots had such good concepts for support characters
i still think riot should divide healing types between self-healing and outside healing
self-healing being any ability that gives you health to the character that used it, examples being, warwick autos and Q, trynda's Q, zac bubbles, etc, anything that heals yourself and is intrisicly part of the champion
outside healing would be any lifesteal gained from items, item effects and heals from other champs, like soraka or taric
this way, griveous wounds could target outside healing to make sure someone like fiora can't go full lifesteal and be unbeatable, or still being able to stop a support that is giving too many heals while being able to balance correctly the amounts of health regenerated by champs that use this heals heavely
imagine playing your favorite bruiser and not have your hopes crushed because they got a single brumble vest early on, i think it would help make those characters feel good to use while limiting the extremes a late game sorambulance
Now we have Briar!
Riot increased damage, and resulting Armor/MR so much over the years that everything is dependent on its % reduction and increase values.
And then, to counter the resistance powercreep %-damage has been introduced, hurting base HP even more.
Im so glad we got another addition to this list with Briar :))
So here's my idea for a shell of an interesting HP caster: All of their health costs feed into a secondary resource pool, empowering the champion after a certain threshold. This secondary resource slowly drains over time, and as this second meter empties the champion regenerates HP (Roughly equal to the HP they spent filling this meter up). Kinda like mixing Vladimir and Rumble together.
I was thinking about something similar to this for a darkin support that's a master hemomancer.
I got thinking about it a little more and there really are some fundamental challenges such a champion would have to overcome in order to be... not hot garbage.
How do you deal with Grievous wounds and Ignite?
How do deal with having a *terrible* disadvantage state? An assassin jumps out and hits you for 50% of your HP, do you dig the hole deeper to try to salvage this with your un-empowered abilities?
I think this actually creates a very interesting laning phase, though: it essentially gives your opponent a short window of time to try to capitalize on your health costs, meaning that they might be inclined to commit to an attack on you, but a lot of consideration has to be made to ensure that you don't get bullied before you have a chance to set up.
In a roundabout way, that's almost how Tryndamere functions through his passive and Q.
Instead of the health cost raising that second resource (in his case, his rage bar), his attacks raise it. And Tryndamere doesn't have direct health costs, but in essence, as a melee auto attacker, it could be argued that since he has to more expose himself to attack, that he is usually generally trading HP to raise it (not 100% the same as he can raise this on non-champions, but as the video shows, even direct HP casters come out way ahead when leeching back from minions/jungle monsters uncontested).
It eventually slowly drains over times. It doesn't restore HP as it does, but you can manually consume it with Q active to instantly do that, and the amount restored is based on the amount consumed.
Rather than a flat empowerment, he gets extra crit chance based on how high it is, which is just "extra damage" when averaged out (not sure if by empowerment you were more thinking extra capabilities/effects), but similar concept.
Lastly, his Q passive raises his attack damage when his HP is lower (like the Last Stand rune) and as stated, he is generally trading HP to make a trade, so in a roundabout way his concept is "trade HP to generate another resource that empowers you, and it can sustain you too".
@@kevingriffith6011 How do you deal with grevious wounds and ignite? If you don't want to delete grevious wounds as a concept, but want a champion to not be affected by them, simply write ''this ability is not affected by grevious wounds/enemy debuffs'' and code it differently, it's really not rocket science.
@@MrMrtvozornik That's certainly the most direct solution, but it's also the worst IMO. (For the record, I do think they should delete grievous wounds from the game and just balance their healing effects around a game that doesn't have it. Imagine if there was an item that made you take 50% less damage from crits, wouldn't be fair to ADCs would it. Same with grievous wounds on healing champions)
The best answer would be a way that is both intuitive and doesn't deny the opponent counterplay, and putting an exception from an existing mechanic is far from intuitive.
I think HP cost characters can definitely be balanced. One would only need to look at Dota's Phoenix. High hp cost on abilities off set by higher than average HP regen at base and facilitated by boots and consumables as well as the only true regen of the kit being an extremely strong team-fighting ultimate with a 2 minute cool down. Phoenix has kind of been shoe horned into the support role as of some time now but remains a strong and often viable at the highest levels of play character with a high skill ceiling. Although he used to be primarily played as a offlane core hero (the kinda toplane equivalent that is supposed to come online earlier than other carries and will usually initiate fights and/or soak up damage and disturb the enemy teams' ability to fight) so while League's modern hero design isn't too keen on creating characters like Phoenix that use HP as a resource I do think having some sort of "hp regen/heal rarefying" passive that grants some very powerful team-fight ability as a trade-off could lead to an interesting championg design. That said Phoenix also uses mana and healing is way rarer in Dota compared to League especially in this enchanter support meta that the durability patch created. Great video !
Vars in Why no one plays Malzahar : Malz is physically incapable of carrying games because nothing in his kit allows him to.
Vars in Health champions : You don't want to waste all that gold for qss tax but if you don't Malz, Skarner and Warwick will run your entire team down.
Back when Soraka could Restore HP & Mana for his Allys, I always thought about, what SPell getting first?
Mana or Health Restore?
I always chose Health, because you CAN stay on Lane without Mana, but you can't without Health.
my first thought when hearing about this would be that a health based adc could be interesting. Since adcs rely heavily on auto attacks and are designed around having a low HP total, it's possible to give them a kit with minimal natural regen. Quick summary of what the abilities might look like. All of these abilities would have pretty low cooldowns in exchange for taking up health.
Passive - basically Triumph
Q - something similar to Jinx q where you can toggle between regular auto attacks and auto attacks that do extra stuff but drain health.
W - some AoE damage ability
E - some sort of peel tool that has a significant health cost.
Ult - a self buff that removes the health cost for some period of time.
Check out Huskar from Dota - uses HP to empower attacks, and gains power based off missing HP. Also has a cool ult that nukes both the enemy and himself
@@catnap7656 himself and the enemy, scaaary ult lol
@catnap also zul'jin from Hots he has a passive that gives you 1% attack speed for every 1%missing health but is also a toggle where when on gives you a bunch more damage I think its 50% but each auto attack costs 2% max hp
the thing with health cost is that either they don't matter because you want you use your abilities as much as possible and managing health like managing mana doesn't reward you with anything, long ago i played an mmo called dofus were one of the classes used health as a resource, and their abilities effects changed depending on how much health you have, so you sometimes intentionally damage yourself to get to a certain threshold of health and the gameplay was maintaining a stable level of health for as long as possible, kinda like rumble passive in a way
Yay a video on Vlad sort of
maybe a passive that buffs damage output greatly when affected by grievous wounds, and a way to self apply grievous wounds, forcing a choice between sustain or damage 🤔
A video about mid game champions would be nice
Pantheon, the early game hyperscaler with a shitty midgame. Akali, bad early, pretty bad late, really good midgame
I don’t know why, but Snow‘s theme fits perfectly for that video. Good choice
One possibility would be making a champ that wants to stay at certain hp thresholds (maybe between 50 and 20% certain effects are active), or abilities are weakened, but don't have a cost under a certain hp percentage, or change between recovery and main mode under certain conditions (hp, rage bar or whatever). Each gives either resource management or more risk/reward IMO
I think riot hit on the mechanic to at least balance health cost champions around wounds with mundos new ulti.
Make a portion of the healing mechanic add to total health for a very short period of time.
You have the amount of health be close to the health costs on rotation.
i would have really love to se a champion that with an ability (probably r) can gain as much health as it has mana and vice versa, meaning that you have to keep controlof how you use your abilities to maximise it "get out of jail card".
Or maybe a shield that heals if there's may shield left
That is essentially hoe Medusa’s Mana Shield works in DotA 2.
I want a champ with no max health. They just keep regenerating slowly, with a base value that fountain and warmogs bring them up to.
Let them sit in lane they'll eventually roll up on you with 8k hp in the bank and slap you to death.
i have designed a champion that use both mana and health has casting ressource AND life ressource .
basicly they have two form , one is a AP battle mage , the other a brusier , DMG the enemy , give the ressource of the other form use as health , the interation with lifesteal is that it split between the two ressource , effectivly making a champ that can afford to build a a hybrid path to maximise value .
to avoid the "jsut turn into the other form to heal up" the tranformation is on r and the act of tranforming do a explosion thus making it near nesecerary to use well in fight .
the other part if they never sustain enought so Mera (the Mana brusier that use mane as both health and casting device) cannot heal past a certain ammount of health based on dmg inflicted by other , meaning that u will die at one point using ressource foricng u to back , but with a health pool split between two form , at one point u need to keep swaping between the two in some dacne to keep pressure hight
they start as a useless "locked" version with none of the benefit of either form (like kayn) then at 6 choose a form , making a powerspike of utility , at 11 the other form unlock as well so in midgame u need to resource management to just having the right to exist , at 16 the two form fuse ,finaly having the best of both world and effectivly double the hp , but a constant hp drain
I think health champions might be an interesting combination with artillery mage.
It makes a situation that every shot is a trade off. If you miss it, you lose health and thus become more vulnerable; if you land it, you deal damage and gain health.
Maybe the damage can be scaled by missing health, and the cost by percentage current health, so you become a glass canon in low health.
Alternatively, the damage can also be scaled by current health, so that landing shots and avoiding being ganked become more important in this champion. Or it allows for more tanky build for consistency in exchange of damage
Vars you're way of explaining is top tier. Become my mentor already!
I've actually made an experiment where I was giving some champs builds that gave them maximum amount of health possible and see how long would they survive under 2 towers and I was pretty surprised how much they could survive
Wut was the longest one?
I feel like the best way to make an HP cost champion would be to give them a passive similar to cho'gath's, so that they still have a meaningful choice of whether to use their abilities but at the same time have no issues clearing a wave of minions
id say depends on class, hp is nat a def stat so most likely are fighter, tank, or battlemage. pass: blood wells, 2 resource bars,
1st is when over heal store excess in blood well up to 200 + (2 + 1*lv)% max hp this is perm an only drained for use of abilities.
2nd every time blood well 1 stores 200 hp gain a charge(max 5), on fatal dmg cleanse self and consume charges,
each charge heal (2+1*lv)% max hp, 3min cd, still can gain charges, if die while on cd is refreshed.
QWE an maybe R would need have function of say can cast again with reduced dmg an hp cost added
Tryndamere used to be a health caster, with Mocking Shout and Spinning Slash costing health, before his mini rework in 2011.
Old Aatrox, During the early game he did need to rely on blood thurst, however, while jungling he could use blood price to clear a camp quicker till he got to about 1/2 HP and needed to swap back over to heal back up. That is, till he got 2 key lifesteal items, Bork and BT and the old lifesteal jungle item. After that hurtle was cleared, he could stay on price all day, during fights, and the lifesteal would easily cover the cost of blood price. Plus if, during a fight, he got low, going over to thurst just made him unkillable as long as he was hitting...anything.
Another love for old Aatrox was that he could solo dragon, level 4 with a dagger.
I still miss ye old pet dragon.....
A tear dropped, really missed the old Aatrox, wish I could play him one single more time
i miss aatrox's old ... w i think, i just thought/think the idea of having to choose between extra dps at the cost pf your health, and better sustain is really nice. kinda wish that was kept somehow in the rework :/
12:55 My biggest issue is that at least for the suppressors the item you buy counters them and you get a genuine leg up fighting them. For champs that are super focused around healing, you need to get the healing cut for them to be on a normal champs level since Riot balances them around the assumption that you'll get healing cut
Yeah with QSS, it only helps the user, so if your ally gets targeted in the team fight instead you can't do anything about it. But with grievous wounds if sona buys chemtech putrifier her whole team gets the full effect. If QSS instead targeted the malzahar and prevented them from locking down anyone on your team then it would be different, but the difference between the support spending 2300 gold on one item vs just the ADC spending 1300 gold is huge. That 1300 gold sets the ADC back on their damage items so much, and can be the difference between infinity edge or just B.F. Sword and Pickaxe. Sona buying grievous doesn't set back her team's power spikes, so the cost to the team is lower, therefore the benefit should be as well. Not even to mention the prevalence of ignite. QSS should give you a huge leg up because it is such a huge cost to build into. That's why it's often called the tax you have to pay when playing against those kinds of champions.
Skarner's existence means that the enemy Draven has to spend an extra 1300 gold on an item that isn't part of their normal build just to play the game. That's a huge tax to pay, especially for such a gold hungry champion as him. But if Draven builds an executioner's blade, he's still building damage, and all the healing it reduces can be considered damage, which is exactly what he wants to do as a champion, even if it does fall outside his build path.
@@Aaron-cs3xl You're considering the issue only from the POV of bot lane, in that case sure you have a point but its basically 2/5 as effective from its limited scope.
Also what you're describing has absolutely no impact on the real issue, just the items that are used to address it. Its not like QSS doesnt give stats, just that from the adc pov it doesnt give the absolutely most important stats. To reiterate, regardless of the items used to counter these champs heavy healing champs are balanced around your opponent having healing cut while that just isnt the case for champs with a suppression.
I think it can work, but done right. Like for example, like a freligodian champion who uses there health to empower each of there ability’s. Kindof of Like udyrs empowers stances, but only ability’s.
I honestly feel the raka regen method is perfect for a health-based caster. A skill expressive spell that can be cast in combat or the neutral, but only heals off champ hits. There's a lot of creative bandwidth in that kind of spell, without causing toxic gameplay. Suddenly the ability to sustain in lane becomes a matter of managing skill use and being skillful in triggering the heal. It also means that you still have one ability that can be spammed in neutral without killing yourself. If you want to force more champion interaction you could even have all skills refund a portion of health when used on a champion, but that feels like it will lead to frustration
With the way raka has been looking in the lead up to worlds, it still has drawbacks. However, I do agree that there should be a couple more champions who could use either that or olaf's interaction model and still be relevant.
@@ericwolf9664 definitely still has drawbacks, just like every other style of champ design. I'd say raka right now is more of a meta shift issue than a design one, though. Her numbers were buffed cause they were too low for the engage support meta and now they are too high in an enchanter meta.
Even though her Q refunds a decent amount of health, Soraka herself is incredibly squishy and has no other way of healing herself (besides her ult). She needs to stay in the back line or she'll get killed immediately. If you engage on Soraka and her team can't help her, she usually dies. She's like a healer version of a glass cannon. Her Q is absolutely not a guaranteed hit especially in laning phase, since Soraka herself has negligible cc; it requires some planning ahead to set up a q with her e. She's easily punishable, but a huge asset to her team if she can manage to stay alive.
there was an old health champ that could burn themself out of lane in nutral and excelled at all in fights with no way to heal himself besides ult which had a long cc for as good pay off and gun blade. old mord was bad at prolonged laning fazes before getting gun blade and even after that it was tricky since you didnt gain back health from any of his abilities inharently but that quickly depleting shield, meaning early on if you fought you went hard since your goal was to trade the health lost from abilities into shield to soak incoming enemy damage, the issue is champs with easy harass would force you to use abilities on the minions to get shield and slowly deplete you of health through your own abilities and it wasnt as simple as just having your ult for every fight or gundblade since as mord you wanted rylias since he was and i think still is one of the slowest champs in the game and you had no cc. so early game you relied on burst trade using the shield to so any trade back and late game with short cds and gunblade you became a prolonged combat monster. its an intresting dynamic its also why his early game could be so bad since old mord could be seen as a stat check champ desighned to get more out of his stats then any other champ but starting far behind others so you needed more items to catch up but always won on equal items. like seriously old mord was probably the only champ that could one v one trynda since he could soak the crits and just push trynda to the absolute limit of his ult. i am talking about before they made his w heal him.
FFXIII Snow's theme for the primarily tanky casting archetype, fitting though Snow can't one-shot (or nearly one-shot) me while having 4k hp
Hey Vars, dunno if you'll read this, but even though it is a vastly different system, when it comes to health casters, i believe that Phoenix from Dota 2 is a good example of how a health caster should be made (even though he still uses mana).
So i created a support type HP champ. It wouldn't really work in a solo lane, the sustain is decent but not on minions. Run glacial as main or electrocute. Could work jungle, probably.
P : basic attacks deal no damage. Instead creates a tether to the nearest enemy(champion prio) that slowly transfers HP(does not apply item effects)
Q : Moderate damage. Launches bubbles of bubbling life force that corrode at magic armour and add a stack. At one stack slows the target. At two stacks stuns the target. At 5 stacks, all stacks are absorbed and heal for missing health. Two charges, AoE skill shot. Costs flat HP and low CD. A target is placed on cooldown before it can be stunned again.
W : toggle; increases the range of the tether(P) and adds a slow when moving away; Shortens the range of the tether(P) and increases its effect. (Dmg increased against minions/reduced healing).
E : Held; Stores HP up to a maximum. Press : Creates a pool of energy on the floor that damages and increases in size based on stored HP.
R : Passive; tethered enemies deal less damage to allies. Tethers all nearby enemies and pulls them closer, for each tethered enemy gain : physical and magical armour.
What about this ability:
When you toggle this ability your drain an x (flat or %) amount hp per second to gain a buff big buff or a big on going effect like Anivia R.
The important part is that it should not gain life while having this ability active like Swain R.
But when you deactivate the ability, you should regain a portion of the damage dealt or health spend back and go on a decent cooldown.
It would be interesting to see a champion that can use health to cast their abilities once they run out of mana, especially if they had a toggle ability with a high mana per second cost
.. Sound like a Mobile Legends fan
@@randomcatname7792 nah
Wotlk warlock, dunno about the new expansions, but pretty much it's a loop of spamming spells and someone else healing
So yeah it's not something original nor new but it could be made fun if riot balanced it properly
Balancing idea for antiheal: change it so that it is less efectiv on healing from the champ kit it self and make it more efective against items. So you would be able to target the healing of an champion better and healing based champions wouldnt get shut down by grivious wounds, while champions like yasuo witch just build train tank could keep counter meshures.
Also this could else be jused for a health champion, because the enemys wouldnt riquire early antiheal.
i've been saying that since durability patch
how the hell would you code it then?What about on hit/attack skill?does omnivamp cripple attack user but somehow reward ability user?Does spirit visage break this?
@@Megaman-2407 Good way to show that you know shit about coding. It's literally as simple as adding a different multiplier between item code and champion code.
Spirit visage already is coded AFTER all prior healing multipliers so another " * x " infront changes nothing on the interaction.
@@Megaman-2407 you just code omnivamp and lifesteal as "b" healing and an healing from champs kits as "a" healing anti heal affects "b" healing to a different degree than "a" healing spirit visage buffs both "b" and "a" healing equally
I think the way to design a health caster would be to have key, strong, ult-like abilities, that cost very high amounts of health. So that using health really does become a trade-off, not a nessesity. If those abilities are skillshots or somewhat situational, it can be a real test of gamesense, and on top of that, it has counter play, because just avoiding those abilities is a net-positive for you since then the enemy has wasted a lot of Health for nothing.
Maybe have it so that they can swich between using mana and hp. Like hp attack hit harder while mana attack are less risky
I miss old Mundo when you could heal 110 max health over 12 seconds
I love vlad but man deserves a rework more than most other champs
Why? He is viable any elo, yes not super interactive with his q but there's still balamce and skill expression with his passive and channeling of his e.
@@minhthai4915 he is so outdated, the lack of interactivity is exactly what requires a rework for him. He also looks ugly.
@@68Layers huh? Am I just old? He was reworked already he just needs visual update on his legendary skin the other ones are good
@@tsnstonepilot5375 he is so un fun to vs tho
@@minhthai4915 he may be viable , but his kit is too boring and ugly. watch what they did to udyr . they kept his kit but made him so enjoyable to play .Now you have to think before engaging in a teamfight and be a stun bot.Everything about his kit clicks right . he looks so good and now you are not punished for not having an ult . imagine what they could do to vladimir
"You want to keep your health as close to full as possible"
Warwick
the music is final fantasy 13 snow theme
is it weird that i know that theme on instinct anywhere i hear it?
Everytime you touch on morde I just get nostalgic for original morde, it was my favorite rendition lol
I think you could make a cool adc hp user. I think the synergy with their support could be very cool and crucial.
A video on qiyana would be cool, I am curious about what is your opinion on her, especially with what play style Riot has forced on her.
My definition of a balanced health cost champ is Vlad. Sure he can be annoying but I rarely see it necessary to build heal cut for him. It helps A LOT but I don't consider it as much of a requirement as other hp cost champs like Zac. I think this is due to the fact that he still typically has lower resistances and the hp cost of his W. In most games if you can force his W then you can burst him even without heal cut. If this was a common archetype then no, he wouldn't be balanced because there would be a much higher chance of multiple similar champs on the same team, but as it stands he is balanced and stands as a (rough) model of what an HP champ should be. I am not saying he's *perfectly* balanced, he definitely has his share of problems but he is close enough to be considered "adequately" balanced if that makes any sense.
For Vlad, you could make it so that Q only works on champions? That ties his sustain to battles with champions at least
i feel like the problem with vlad falls on helping too much on his health cost and forgetting to balance him as the late game mage he is, early game he's just safe farming with Q and autos and can disengage at any time with pool, then late game he just presses Q on someone and takes half their hp away while being untargetable, maybe they should make his laning phase weaker or less safe since he's a late game monster
They killed Anti-Heal in my Eyes. i often had Champs like, Aatrox, Mundo and Co against me. I built Anti Heal (Strong ones) and felt 0 Influence from it.
as a mundo main they do have an effect, you just have to play better than me otherwise i become practically unkillable since i can run away to heal about as easily as i can chase. i also play against mundo a lot and never seem to have trouble unless they’re gigafed.
apparently Tryndamere was a health caster back in the day but was later reworked without his health cost.
Watching old Aatrox gameplay reminds me of the time I spam him. Maaaan I miss that guy.
I definitely read the title as "Healthy Champions: A Forgotten Archetype?" and I was all in...
What if an HP pool champion had more base health than the average champion? Or you could make each ability have a healing cooldown, so out of 3 of four abilites in the kit, every few seconds (maybe 5?) the next ability cast would return some health to the user. You could also try reducing anti-heal on that champion but depending on what role they play, maybe they also cannot build more than 15-25% life-steal. Just a few thoughts...
Idk if youll see this but if you do i do have a request, when choosing the soundtrack of a video can you possibly avoid ones that periodically play incredibly high pitched ringing noises? Its probably not a big problem for others but it seriously messed with the viewing experience and sorta hurt... I love the video otherwise!
(Or possibly try to put a low pass filter on the song? Whichever filter chokes high frequencies but only use for those hyper high ones)
There is another way to design health casters, is having one powerful ability that costs health, making it a non neutral tool that is a consideration every time you use it.
Soraka used to be like this somewhat, her W is a powerful tool but it makes her an easier target. Tho her Q heal offsets this mostly nowadays.
unless stacheckers are very overstated and not punishable I think the champs are fine, either they have the stats to win and they will win or they don't have them and they lose, there is no bamboozling like riven with 1hp full combo'ing you to death.
Honestly havn't played in a while but I would design a new champ that uses mana however when their spell cost is higher than remaining mana have a passive where they can use health as a substitute. Could probably have current % cost and raise damage based on cost consumed. However havn't played in quite a while because true damage execute dragon was a stupid idea and too powerful as it's not tied to the player power themselves like champs/items are.
"dying is objectivly detrimental for your team's success"
my karthus says otherwise
I personally love health casters, but only Vlad seems meaningful at this point. I don't think you can spam Mundos abilities enough for him to lose health where Vlad with a bad W usage will lose a significant amount of health and possibly not be able to approach the wave anymore.
Dark knights in FFXIV pvp use health as a resource for damage and also have ways to recover hp. They also gain increased damage the lower hp they are. Their ultimate drops them down to one hp but they cannot drop any lower, effectively being a 10 second Tryndamere ult. It grants full life steal on all attacks and synergies with your attacks that gain more damage on low hp. In aoe situations it can heal back to full quite easily.
I kinda wish darkin had a playstyle more like this. There's lots of room for skill expression and making mistakes on this playstyle can be punished easily (you putting yourself on low hp)
I think that saying that HP champs healing to full off a minion wave in the late game means that they're stat check-y is a little disingenuous. Any champ that builds lifesteal, omnivamp, warmogs, or has innate healing in their kit that works vs minions or jg monsters is able to do the same. I'm probably really biased as a Zac player, but I think that champ is one of, if not, the most skill expressive tanks in the game. During combat, blobs are based solely on whether or not Zac can hit his abilities and also pick up the random blob drop locations midfight before his opponent (ult bonus MS does help a lot with this though). His Q also has a lot of depth in it since you can get the pull from hitting anything, not just champs, but also minions, camps, plants, towers, pets, etc. in addition to having flash extensions to get the follow-up auto. There's stuff like using Q over the wall to grab gromp with Q (ex. when in bot lane) and then flashing and autoing for the Q pull. Not many other champs can allow for the same level of creativity and awareness. Zac's worth in a teamfight scales even harder with how much he's able to land his skillshots than many other tanks since all his basic ability CC is on skillshots, missing then means no heal and no W dmg, and they have fairly long CDs.
Here's some comparisons assuming perfect conditions at around lvl 13 and rank 2 Zac R:
If Zac lands a 5 man E into a 2 man Q into R and gets all R hits, he is able to spawn 11 blobs in total. If he manages to pick up every single blob the instant that it drops, that's enough to refund his W CD entirely (usually around 3 sec at 3-4 items) almost 4 times over which means he gets 4 blobs he otherwise wouldn't have and gets another free W cast on top of that if he collects all of those 4 blobs instantly for a total of 16 blobs or 88% max hp in healing 28% of his current hp in costs. But that's super unlikely since blobs disappear if opponents step on them, blobs spawn in random directions, and Zac's only combat mobility is R after he's engaged with E.
If Zac is in a 1v1 without any minon wave, and gets E Q R, then he gets 6 blobs from his basic abilities, refunds his W CD twice and spawns only 8 blobs (44% max hp) for 20% current hp.
Without R, it's even more drastic where 5 man E -> 2 man Q spawn 7 blobs and refund W twice for 9 blobs (49.5% hp healing) for 20% current hp whereas 1 man E -> 1 man Q spawn 2 blobs and doesn't even refund W (11% hp healing) and loses 12% current health
If health cost champs need to have higher healing than health costs on their abilities then they are basically just manaless that heal a bit. So they are still just better then mana cost no heal champs while also not having to manage mana lol.
Is that snow's theme from final fantasy 13 I hear?
My idea for designing one in a healthy way would be a combat healer that has HP costs, but also have him have a way to compensate for it
The whole Giving away health but gaining a shield sounds good for a combat healer
But it can easily become either broken or useless
In my opinion the easiest way to design a HP user champ is by granting these champs some buffs and positive bonuses the lower their HP is
New darkin dog champion has a sword so they might fit into this archetype. Let's hope riot make it unique.
“No pun intended” the pun was definitely intended lol
You should do a video about how broken Fizz is
bad analogy, a mana caster without mana IS in danger since you have no way to defend yourself. People specifically play more aggressive when the enemy has low / no mana.
i think needing to buy certain items when going against certain enemies is fine, it's not like these are the only examples of when it happens. for instance if you're playing say syndra mid, and you usually go with a luden's, but this time you're against a zed mid, you'll probably pick up a shattered crown instead. sure you can still go luden's but you'll probably get one shot repeatedly by the zed.
i think people are just stuck in static itemization, where they buy the same thing every game without even thinking about what or why they're doing it.
this has an easy solution imo.
have every spell of vladimir (just an example) cost hp and have the healing reduced on minions and monsters but if he kills said minion or monster with it he gains hp. this way he cant just break hes Q button without it being any form of consequense.
just make everything olaf E lmao. its the best way. you lose hp if said minions does not die but gain hp when it does (even though olaf does not gain hp)
this way you can make it so they gain hp from hitting champions but not gain it from spamming it on minions without killing it.
13:20 is excactly wat i was gonna type
A good user that deals more damage the lower he is. Let him have sustain but then it make him go in to a catch 22 of do I play to survive or play for damage.
Riot def did forget bout them, as a zac main I haven’t seen a skin in yearrrssssssss
I want so much a Why no one plays vladimir yet he is very played right now
Lol when the notification sits all day
Enjoying the FF XIII music. Awesome music choice as always.
"Dying is a detriment."
Don't tell him about Karthus