After owning and driving a Panamera 4 e-Hybrid for three years I can report that this car is brilliant. When home in the city, I usually get 700-900 miles between fill-ups and get an interstate highway range of 550 miles traveling 90mph (no exaggeration). It handles well enough to thrill most enthusiast drivers, switches back and forth between between gas and electric so seamlessly you’d have to watch the tach to know, rides with more poise than my friend’s S560 (I know you don’t believe that), looks fantastic to my eye, holds my entire road bicycle without removing the wheels, and the Burmester sound system is the cleanest and most ass-kicking stereo I’ve heard (and I use every watt often). As one who likes to trade cars every year or two I’m finding myself stymied.
Agreed. I like mine more than my mom’s GTS. Way more responsive, even before I tuned it, after which now mine’s flat out quicker too. Sometimes I miss my M550 engine, but the overall experience and comfort is superior in the Porsche
Hi, I'm looking to buy one of these. But videos are saying your only going to get about 25mpg and I've just sold my Audi S5 to buy one but when looked at specs it said 80mpg. So how are better figures achieved in the mpg. What do you need to do??? My wife travels only once and the odd occasion twice a week to work the 3 evenings 7miles each way for yoga. But I want to do this as efficiently as possibly. I do not want it to be costing me a fortune. Any help from anyone would be amazing. Thank you.
@@TTT-Turbo Like I said, I’m easily getting 700+ miles per tank in the city but that’s because I charge it every night and most days run about 25 miles on e-power before using the ICE. Some weeks the engine doesn’t even start. The electric power, while not like a Tesla, is more than sufficient to deal with city driving. I’m pushing 1000 miles on my current tank and still have 85 miles of gas-range remaining. Can’t remember the last time I filled the tank. By the way, I don’t think I noticed a meaningful difference in my electric bills.
Would you mind going through some of the options you put on your Panamera? There are so many options and I kinda want to know what options you must have vs just preference over spent options. Much appreciated!!
@spikemark1731 ICE, WHATS THAT THEN? I've just bought one on Friday and been keeping it on hybrid mode on the know on the steering wheel, is that the best thing to do? Or change manually on the steering wheel to E mode when coming into a town or village. I stay in Scotland. Thanks Ian
Great to see you do a “living with” format again. I haven’t seen you do one in a few years. I think this should be a recurring theme on your channel with various vehicles from different OEM’s. It gives prospective buyers the idea of how it is to daily drive certain vehicles that we might not get a good feel for with just a normal first drive review. Keep up the great content MM!
As the owner of a Cayenne eHybrid: range - it's a very personal thing (where you live, what your charging options are, etc). On my errands/commute loop, it totally works for me. It won't for some people. When in EV mode, economy is also greatly affected by how you drive; driving efficiently is highly rewarded with more range (also topography is a factor). That said, I have moved away from trying to extract the most out of the electic range, except for shorter trips. For medium (and long) ranges, the car really works best in hybrid mode. You also do actually want to make sure you are running the engine relatively often; if you're just going to use it in EV mode, get an EV.
I totally disagree and gave up my Pan4 E-Hybrid as a result. We now have a 40-mile-electric-range PHEV (Volvo XC60) and a 50-mile PHEV (RAV4 Prime). Driving slower than 40 mph, as in most of our local daily driving, is much more enjoyable and more efficient in an EV than in an ICEV, whereas driving > 50 mph is much more efficient in an ICEV and in an EV. For us, PHEVs are perfect, and we can easily drive 1200-2000 miles on a single tank of gas, driving daily, while still having the option of not having to charge on our bi-monthly long road trips. I'm planning to order a 2024 Cayenne E-Hybrid with its 26-kWh battery pack and proven 45 miles of all-electric range; that's a game-changer for me in Porsche world. I do not ever want to use an ICE when I'm driving < 40 mph, but electric motors just are not (yet) very realistic at highway speeds. So PHEVs with 45-50 miles of range (or more) are really the sweet spot. Would I like 60-80 miles of all-electric range? Yes, of course, but not a the sacrifice of a good-sized gas tank in a PHEV.
By the way, if you want to keep the car longer term, ideally you'd want to balance battery wear - also not running the ICE also has consequences to longevity. Seals drying out, condensation/moisture buildup, fuel/lubricant degredation, among other issues. You also should change oil yearly regardless of use. Ultimately, the ICE is where the fun is and I run it when I can. The dual personality is only a feature if you actually use both; if you only use the electric drive, then getting a pure EV makes more sense.
@@jellakids All PHEV owners are aware that they must change oil at least once a year. As per warranties, I still change oil every 10k miles because I tend to drive closer to 20k miles a year than to 10k miles. ICEs will last much longer in PHEVs than in ICEVs if you do the due-diligence, simply because they are used much less. We drive perhaps 2/3 of our miles in electric-only, and 1/3 with the ICE on. We drive a long road trip on average once every month or two with each of our PHEVs, so they are perfect for us. I wouldn't consider anything but a PHEV probably for the next decade, until the public-charging infrastructure is much more robust for BEV long-distance travel.
Love your videos, particularly when you roam through Manhattan Beach, where I live! I have a Panamera 4E-Hybrid, and I'm getting 59.3 MPG after 3 years of joyful ownership. Crazy I know, but I have a 30 mile commute 3 days a week. Charge at the office, with level 2 at each end. Probably the ideal mix of freeway and city driving. Fantastic car.
I agree: PHEVs need a minimum of 40 miles of all-electric range at non-highway speeds (i.e., local stop-and-go traffic at < 40 mph) to be realistically practical. The "Extended Range" Volvo PHEVs now do that (40 miles), and the RAV4 Prime gets 50 miles consistently in warm weather, non-highway driving. (Ask me how I know.) But Porsche is coming out already this year with the 2024 Cayenne E-Hybrid with its new 26-kWh battery pack, and Kyle Conner has already driven it in California on a range test at < 45 mph and has found it will do 45 miles of all-electric range. I have to believe that this larger pack will go into the Panamera E-Hybrid in the next year, as well. In my extensive experience with Porsche E-Hybrids, Panameras have tended to do better range-wise in E-Power than Cayennes, ostensibly because of its being much more aerodynamic (lower coefficient of friction). I'm glad that Oliver Blume has pushed for this increase, and I'm surprised that other PHEVs in the VW Group (Audi, VW) have not followed suit yet (they seem to be years behind Porsche in upgrading their battery packs, for unknown reasons). The other thing I know from following Rennlist (and having a 2018 Pan4 E-Hybrid myself), and Oliver Blume has stated publicly that he knows this as well, is that -- believe it or not -- Porsche E-Hybrid owners want to drive a LOT in electric-only mode in local driving.
I’m a member of the Magic Castle. And I drive a Panamera. But I live in Texas so I never get to drive my Panamera to the Magic Castle. I’ll drive my rental car to the Castle on Sunday.
I’d love to get your take on the Volvo V60 T8 PHEV. It’s a compelling package in my opinion that gets over 40 miles of pure EV range in combination with a remarkably well sorted ICE and blended regen braking package. I took a chance on ordering one after a great experience with the previous gen V60 Polestar model and have zero regrets. Also, check out the resale prices on the V60 PHEVs - they hold their value really well.
Stopped featuring Volvos on the show a while back. Love their designs - both inside and out - but there are better choices from both a money and driving dynamics standpoint out there.
I own a 2022 XC60 T8 ER, and it's really fabulous, with 40 miles of non-highway-speed all-electric range and the only PHEVs on the planet with one-pedal driving (which is really impressive on regen in extending range). The problem with Volvos is that they're blindly following Tesla's horrible lead into eliminating physical buttons/dials and putting everything into a touchscreen, making driving a nightmare of constantly having to focus on the touchscreen (which is very finicky) instead of the road. I'm planning to trade my XC60 in for the new Cayenne E-Hybrid with its 26-kWh battery pack and 45-50 miles of all-electric non-highway range, as a result; Porsche is going more computerized but they still retain a lot of good climate, audio, and drive-mode controls in physical buttons that Volvo has given up.
I have 2018 Panamera 4 Hybrid w/ level w charger in home garage. 2.5 hrs from 1% to 100%. The trick is always drive in H mode or higher, not E mode. This allows a little bit of premium gas burn when demand is high. After warm-up the E mode does most of the work. I too live in SoCal, but north in Oxnard in the harbor and get 40+ CON mpg. It took awhile to figure this out. Also not too much hill driving until heading to LA on inland route when it drops some. .
MM Videos are always a chock full of valuable/informative & thought provoking information! I enjoyed this video. I’m not there yet with PHEVs! Long live ICE performance Porsches! Cheers/B
Porsche having a 19.2kW on board charger is great but to take advantage of that you need a 100A breaker supporting that 80A EVSE hardwired in. I manage easily with half that with my IONIQ 5 at the limit of what can be plugged in. Speaking of half, I won’t mention my MSRP but would encourage anyone toying with the idea of adding an outlet to have the wire pulled capable of double the current. That way in the future you’re not stuck having to upgrade the outlet wire because you want more juice for quicker charging for that bigger battery on your wish list. My 77.4kWh charges over night easily once every few hundred miles a time or two a week. I’d like to see Porsche’s efficiency at the current size increased as well as the battery size. That full length of vehicle center console looks like a potential for that extra capacity. Nice scientific study. 😉 12:01
@@cbatiau2528 , you may be right because I was using this browser on my iPhone to search Porsches webpage. My full BEV only has a 10kW on board Charger so either one of those lower figures are quite respectable for PHEV’s.
AMAZING place. I am not a magic guy but had a great time. We were there for over 6 hours and saw shows in every theater. Even was part of the show in the small theater. Only thing missing was a cigar lounge.
@@MotoManTV You are THE MAGIC guy Mr. Motoman! Your cars reviews are full of magics! 👌🙏 BTW,due in all respects to hybrid and electric car industry,even in my most horror movie's dream I can't imagine to switch my 2015 panamera gts for something like this. NO WAY!!!
Super nice video. I am slowly looking for options to swap my Macan for another daily, Panamera being one of them and e hybrid version could be a possible one, but I am still a bit scared with all of the possible charging infrastructure issues I might need to solve, especially plug in at my underground parking.
Great video. Loved the format of "living with..." and seeing you and the car doing what people normally do like going to the gym, the office, going out. Excellent as always! By the way, there is a great Italian coffee shop near the airport there called Caffe Tre Venezie.
I hit the like button everytime. Free. And still want smaller tires and rims to a certain point and lighter. 17 inch. And a 100 mile ev minimum range. Nice car
New tech is likely to produce lighter higher capacity batteries, the question to ask is how long do you want to wait, and how to avoid buyer’s remorse.
Right on point with this video! The 2024 Cayenne PHEV supposedly has around 50 Mile range; my question is does the battery charge off the engine if in hybrid mode? Or.. only by plugging it in? What happens when the battery is charged out? Also, I've heard the brake pedal is weird on these hybrid Porsches>?
I like this real-life test a lot. So if you have a level 2 charger at home and in the office you are good - also I copy that you want not engage the gas engine for all normal driving throughout the week. It only can be a compromise - have 2 drive trains on board. Love the interior looks awesome! Would it be my ride to the magic castle? If it would be my only ride and I would need to go on longer trips like 2 times a month? to Las Vegas or SF? Probably. But I am not living in the US. Over here we have a good functional CCS grid. Here I would now choose a daily driver with a 300miles range.
My main concern with plug in hybrids is what happens if your commute is short enough to almost never use the petrol engine and the fuel starts getting old, degrading and decaying.
My PHEV has a pressurized fuel tank that allows the fuel to last much longer. It's also only a 7 gallon tank but still provides 5 hours of highway driving as a hybrid. Since I can't drive any longer than that without a pit stop it's plenty of gas engine range. If you're in electric only use for a long time the software in the car will run the engine for a short time to keep everything properly lubricated. Honda Clarity PHEV. Best car I've ever owned.
@@u.a.nugroho On my car I do a long press on the hybrid button and that saves the battery charge where it is at the time and it runs as a normal hybrid with the gas motor generating the electricity for the drive wheels. I believe most PHEV's have this feature. It's what you do for highway driving...keep the battery capacity for in-city driving.
If a person wanted to drive a vehicle with out using any fossil fuel, seems to me the best choice would be an all electric vehicle. I was more interested in seeing how the Panamera e-Hybrid performed as a gas- electric car. i.e does the gas engine sufficiently charge the electric battery. Can you use a conjunction of both motors to increase your driving range. How is the performance affected by the use of both motors simultaneously.
does the gas engine charge the battery while in operation ? I understand that defeats the purpose of a PHEV in terms of E power only and fuel savings. But fuel is not as bad as 2021 where $6/g was normal.
We all love big potent engines, but it may be time for the big brands to look better at what Koenigsegg is doing with the upcoming Gemera. Tiny but powerful engine that seems to sound just fine, but saves huge weight over the token V6 or V8. No complex and heavy gearbox, because electrified. Just a torque converter to take you from 30 mph to 255 mph, in record time. I'm looking for the new energy holy grail still, true energy autonomy. Until we find that (back), we can optimize the parameters with PHEVs.
You want more range on pure electric from an PHEV buy Merc GLE 350 e or GLE 350 de. I have one since aug '21: 75 km on pure electric (highway driving mostly when commuting) and the 2l diesel is doing the job on the long distance journeys. That simple it is... You don't need 2 cars, only one it's good enough
I fully agree. The MB e-diesels are awesome and the 100km EV range is more than enough to fulfill both needs for daily electric short range commutes and the occasional longer drives.
Plug-in hybrids are much better than full EV's. This is the more logical step and agreeable to more buyers. EV's are about to hit maximum market saturation soon and manufacturers are going to regret this huge shift when buyers dry up - already showing big warning signs amongst the luxury EV market. No one wants to be stuck holding the bag of a 100k+ EV that's last year's tech (iphone conundrum). My wife has a Panamera eHybrid and loves it, it's the perfect car for her long commute. She gets 1,000 miles a tank. I had a Taycan and sold it in 5 months, it sucked - charging was maddening and the range was horrible + values were tanking. I am a manual 911 guy and won't make that mistake again. The 718 is probably the most tracked car Porsche makes (cheapest sports car), they are making a huge mistake telling future buyers "guess what, you can't track this EV 718 now and we are going to add 1,000lbs to the small sports car" - insane business move in my opinion. No one cares about an EV sports car, check Rennlist, barely any excitement.
Good to know! Some sad news, just a couple of days after we were there, the founder passed. beverlypress.com/2023/05/milt-larsen-magic-castle-co-founder-passes-away-at-92/#:~:text=Milton%20%E2%80%9CMilt%E2%80%9D%20Larsen%2C%20co,at%20the%20age%20of%2092.
In my opinion the best hybrid is the one that can charge the batteries on the go by itself. And yes you can still plug that in the sockeet and recharge it when available. Why the Porsche doesn''t have that I don't know. Maybe the costs are too high or something else. But like the Motoman said the real world range has to be better and it is about time that the manufacturers stop lying about the range because in this day and age and since everybody knows that the ranges listed are not real the manufacturers should address that.
Porsche does have that, as do all PHEVs that I know of. All PHEVs charge the traction batteries via regen when slowing down or braking. Also, all PHEVs have an option to charge the traction battery using the ICE while driving (usually called "Charge" mode). And Porsches charge the traction battery fastest when driving in Sport or Sport Plus mode (ICE on always). All PHEVs that I know of (Porsche, Volvo, Toyota) charge much faster off the ICE than when they are plugged in to even a 240-volt outlet. As for range: in local (non-highway) driving, at speeds < 45 mph, which is where electric motors are much more efficient than ICEs are, here are some real-world, verified all-electric range for PHEVs: 2022 Volvo XC60 ER, 40 miles; 2021 RAV4 Prime, 50 miles; 2024 Cayenne E-Hybrid, 45 miles. The first two are via my personal ownership; the last is via Kyle Conner's range test (UA-cam video).
Informstive video. Certainly put it in perspective from a real world stand point. Jealous you got an invite to the Magic Castle. Been trying to get there for years. Unfortunately I dont know any members or how to get an invite
The video captures the practical shortfalls of BEV, PHEV. I remain unconvinced that BEV is a practical long range transportation solution, at least here in the States, where we always drive further…plus the realities of the capacity to produce enough power, and the grid deficiencies. That doesn’t begin to address the rare earth metal cost and production, which absent a significant leap in technology limits the practicality of “low cost” long range (EV) vehicles. Toyota has a better vision, which is to mostly use hybrid technology…which is affordable by virtue of the smaller battery. It delivers more energy efficient vehicles into more households, which lowers carbon emissions. In typical government fashion here and elsewhere they are attempting to legislate the ICE out of existence rather than look for the most practical and low cost effort to lower emissions by leveraging hybrid technologies + ICE. That said, I prefer the concept of PHEV. I would spring for the extra 10K on a Panamera with additional range because it is still fun to drive without range anxiety.
you can't fast-charge (DC-charge) a PHEV like this... 240-volt charging is fine... they have buffers and are designed for daily full charging, unlike full BEVs.
Your mates at TFL car commented that: Unless you are as you are supposed to and charge a PHEV/ Plug-in Hybrid; or as Lamborghini bastardise HPEV - High Performance EV/ Electric Vehicle: You are transporting around dead weight - the battery and motor. Electricity is expensive here in the UK and I don’t see how they can claim you are getting 60mph or whatever with a PHEV, because you are paying and powering it separately from gas/ petrol with electricity from the grid. I would hold off having a PHEV or EV for as long as possible. Nobody says at: Bentley, for example, who will be TOTALLY EV (No PHEV) by 2030 and with the first EV around 2025: What happens to the exclusively ICE/ Internal Combustion engine cars they are currently marketing from the point of servicing; parts and resale after 2030 when new ICE are banned in Europe. Maybe the UK after BREXIT can now continue with ICE cars, although manufacturers won’t be making them after 2030. Hopefully the whole think is unviable. Nobody is building the infrastructure. We need more nuclear power stations. I would get a W12 Bentley Flying Spur; Continental GT; Continental GTC convertible or Bentayga (but Bentayga W12 not available bizarrely in Europe) in their last production year to April 2024. You have to order one now. Before the W12 engine ceased production in April 2024 and the V8 continues as the sole ICE with the Porsche V6 PHEV 12V in the Bentayga and Flying Spur. EV are only suitable without an Elon Musk Tesla gold standard network of high capacity chargers (you can pay to use them with an App for your cell phone) and are really exclusively for use within range of your home or in a city like London. You can see the benefits of PHEV/ EV are primarily to clean up air: lead; nitrogen dioxide and soot/ carbon particles where young children are near schools.
Isn't it odd that this Porsche is heavier than a same footprint big cargo space, big battery, Tesla Model S? Taycan is a bit more cramped than Panamera and weighs a bit more, depending on batttery size. Porsche rarely does lightweight I guess, and few brands manage to plug-in in a way that seems weight-efficient, but with a (very) long range "bigger" BEV ending up lighter, is just odd. I love quick refills when I need them, but since all Panamera owners will surely have access to home charging, the battery being small makes less sense with the car ending up bulky anyway.
It's funny that a PHEV gives us an inverse range anxiety problem. We want to go as far as possible on EV-only despite having the ICE there to complete any lengthy trips. I mean really if you want to maximize your EV-only range why are we buying a PHEV in the first place?
sigh... We're on our third PHEV (two currently). We drive locally daily in all-electric mode (charging only at home), but then do long bi-monthly road trips where we don't want to deal with the hassles of public charging. That's why people buy PHEVs. We hate going to gas stations, and rarely have to do so at home, but going to gas stations on long roadtrips is the lesser of two evils (vs. public charging).
It's weird to me that BEVs can hide a 700 kg battery in the floor and have great cargo space, but PHEVs stick the battery where you wanted to put cargo. Lazy engineering. If the cared it would be under the rear seats and in the gear tunnel, surely?
I think a PHEV is the worst of both worlds. I'd get an ev so I could charge at home...not because I care about "climate change" but only to avoid the painful act of witnessing the trashy behavior so common at gas stations by the average American. I'd get a gas car for road trips. If I could afford a Porsche, I'd get an E.V. from another maker.
Well PHEV are a compromise - meaning you charge at home and can do the normal stall electrical every day, if you need to go on a longer road trip - you use gas, meaning if its for you its for you as a one car solution.
After owning and driving a Panamera 4 e-Hybrid for three years I can report that this car is brilliant. When home in the city, I usually get 700-900 miles between fill-ups and get an interstate highway range of 550 miles traveling 90mph (no exaggeration). It handles well enough to thrill most enthusiast drivers, switches back and forth between between gas and electric so seamlessly you’d have to watch the tach to know, rides with more poise than my friend’s S560 (I know you don’t believe that), looks fantastic to my eye, holds my entire road bicycle without removing the wheels, and the Burmester sound system is the cleanest and most ass-kicking stereo I’ve heard (and I use every watt often). As one who likes to trade cars every year or two I’m finding myself stymied.
Agreed. I like mine more than my mom’s GTS. Way more responsive, even before I tuned it, after which now mine’s flat out quicker too. Sometimes I miss my M550 engine, but the overall experience and comfort is superior in the Porsche
Hi, I'm looking to buy one of these. But videos are saying your only going to get about 25mpg and I've just sold my Audi S5 to buy one but when looked at specs it said 80mpg. So how are better figures achieved in the mpg. What do you need to do???
My wife travels only once and the odd occasion twice a week to work the 3 evenings 7miles each way for yoga. But I want to do this as efficiently as possibly. I do not want it to be costing me a fortune.
Any help from anyone would be amazing. Thank you.
@@TTT-Turbo Like I said, I’m easily getting 700+ miles per tank in the city but that’s because I charge it every night and most days run about 25 miles on e-power before using the ICE. Some weeks the engine doesn’t even start. The electric power, while not like a Tesla, is more than sufficient to deal with city driving. I’m pushing 1000 miles on my current tank and still have 85 miles of gas-range remaining. Can’t remember the last time I filled the tank. By the way, I don’t think I noticed a meaningful difference in my electric bills.
Would you mind going through some of the options you put on your Panamera? There are so many options and I kinda want to know what options you must have vs just preference over spent options.
Much appreciated!!
@spikemark1731 ICE, WHATS THAT THEN?
I've just bought one on Friday and been keeping it on hybrid mode on the know on the steering wheel, is that the best thing to do? Or change manually on the steering wheel to E mode when coming into a town or village. I stay in Scotland.
Thanks
Ian
Great to see you do a “living with” format again. I haven’t seen you do one in a few years. I think this should be a recurring theme on your channel with various vehicles from different OEM’s. It gives prospective buyers the idea of how it is to daily drive certain vehicles that we might not get a good feel for with just a normal first drive review. Keep up the great content MM!
Thanks for the real world feedback, Lee!
As the owner of a Cayenne eHybrid: range - it's a very personal thing (where you live, what your charging options are, etc). On my errands/commute loop, it totally works for me. It won't for some people. When in EV mode, economy is also greatly affected by how you drive; driving efficiently is highly rewarded with more range (also topography is a factor). That said, I have moved away from trying to extract the most out of the electic range, except for shorter trips. For medium (and long) ranges, the car really works best in hybrid mode. You also do actually want to make sure you are running the engine relatively often; if you're just going to use it in EV mode, get an EV.
I totally disagree and gave up my Pan4 E-Hybrid as a result. We now have a 40-mile-electric-range PHEV (Volvo XC60) and a 50-mile PHEV (RAV4 Prime). Driving slower than 40 mph, as in most of our local daily driving, is much more enjoyable and more efficient in an EV than in an ICEV, whereas driving > 50 mph is much more efficient in an ICEV and in an EV. For us, PHEVs are perfect, and we can easily drive 1200-2000 miles on a single tank of gas, driving daily, while still having the option of not having to charge on our bi-monthly long road trips. I'm planning to order a 2024 Cayenne E-Hybrid with its 26-kWh battery pack and proven 45 miles of all-electric range; that's a game-changer for me in Porsche world. I do not ever want to use an ICE when I'm driving < 40 mph, but electric motors just are not (yet) very realistic at highway speeds. So PHEVs with 45-50 miles of range (or more) are really the sweet spot. Would I like 60-80 miles of all-electric range? Yes, of course, but not a the sacrifice of a good-sized gas tank in a PHEV.
You 'totally disagree' with something where I deliberately said thats it's a personal fit? Longer EV range is fine, but it's always a compromise.
By the way, if you want to keep the car longer term, ideally you'd want to balance battery wear - also not running the ICE also has consequences to longevity. Seals drying out, condensation/moisture buildup, fuel/lubricant degredation, among other issues. You also should change oil yearly regardless of use. Ultimately, the ICE is where the fun is and I run it when I can. The dual personality is only a feature if you actually use both; if you only use the electric drive, then getting a pure EV makes more sense.
@@jellakids All PHEV owners are aware that they must change oil at least once a year. As per warranties, I still change oil every 10k miles because I tend to drive closer to 20k miles a year than to 10k miles. ICEs will last much longer in PHEVs than in ICEVs if you do the due-diligence, simply because they are used much less. We drive perhaps 2/3 of our miles in electric-only, and 1/3 with the ICE on. We drive a long road trip on average once every month or two with each of our PHEVs, so they are perfect for us. I wouldn't consider anything but a PHEV probably for the next decade, until the public-charging infrastructure is much more robust for BEV long-distance travel.
The Magic Castle: members-only
Costco: members-only
😄😄👍
Love your videos, particularly when you roam through Manhattan Beach, where I live! I have a Panamera 4E-Hybrid, and I'm getting 59.3 MPG after 3 years of joyful ownership. Crazy I know, but I have a 30 mile commute 3 days a week. Charge at the office, with level 2 at each end. Probably the ideal mix of freeway and city driving. Fantastic car.
Well in that case, hello neighbor! You probably recognize Manhattan Avenue and Ardmore.
I agree: PHEVs need a minimum of 40 miles of all-electric range at non-highway speeds (i.e., local stop-and-go traffic at < 40 mph) to be realistically practical. The "Extended Range" Volvo PHEVs now do that (40 miles), and the RAV4 Prime gets 50 miles consistently in warm weather, non-highway driving. (Ask me how I know.) But Porsche is coming out already this year with the 2024 Cayenne E-Hybrid with its new 26-kWh battery pack, and Kyle Conner has already driven it in California on a range test at < 45 mph and has found it will do 45 miles of all-electric range. I have to believe that this larger pack will go into the Panamera E-Hybrid in the next year, as well. In my extensive experience with Porsche E-Hybrids, Panameras have tended to do better range-wise in E-Power than Cayennes, ostensibly because of its being much more aerodynamic (lower coefficient of friction). I'm glad that Oliver Blume has pushed for this increase, and I'm surprised that other PHEVs in the VW Group (Audi, VW) have not followed suit yet (they seem to be years behind Porsche in upgrading their battery packs, for unknown reasons). The other thing I know from following Rennlist (and having a 2018 Pan4 E-Hybrid myself), and Oliver Blume has stated publicly that he knows this as well, is that -- believe it or not -- Porsche E-Hybrid owners want to drive a LOT in electric-only mode in local driving.
I’m a member of the Magic Castle. And I drive a Panamera. But I live in Texas so I never get to drive my Panamera to the Magic Castle. I’ll drive my rental car to the Castle on Sunday.
I’d love to get your take on the Volvo V60 T8 PHEV. It’s a compelling package in my opinion that gets over 40 miles of pure EV range in combination with a remarkably well sorted ICE and blended regen braking package. I took a chance on ordering one after a great experience with the previous gen V60 Polestar model and have zero regrets. Also, check out the resale prices on the V60 PHEVs - they hold their value really well.
Stopped featuring Volvos on the show a while back. Love their designs - both inside and out - but there are better choices from both a money and driving dynamics standpoint out there.
I own a 2022 XC60 T8 ER, and it's really fabulous, with 40 miles of non-highway-speed all-electric range and the only PHEVs on the planet with one-pedal driving (which is really impressive on regen in extending range). The problem with Volvos is that they're blindly following Tesla's horrible lead into eliminating physical buttons/dials and putting everything into a touchscreen, making driving a nightmare of constantly having to focus on the touchscreen (which is very finicky) instead of the road. I'm planning to trade my XC60 in for the new Cayenne E-Hybrid with its 26-kWh battery pack and 45-50 miles of all-electric non-highway range, as a result; Porsche is going more computerized but they still retain a lot of good climate, audio, and drive-mode controls in physical buttons that Volvo has given up.
I have 2018 Panamera 4 Hybrid w/ level w charger in home garage. 2.5 hrs from 1% to 100%. The trick is always drive in H mode or higher, not E mode. This allows a little bit of premium gas burn when demand is high. After warm-up the E mode does most of the work. I too live in SoCal, but north in Oxnard in the harbor and get 40+ CON mpg. It took awhile to figure this out. Also not too much hill driving until heading to LA on inland route when it drops some. .
MM Videos are always a chock full of valuable/informative & thought provoking information! I enjoyed this video. I’m not there yet with PHEVs! Long live ICE performance Porsches! Cheers/B
My pleasure!
Best channel on UA-cam , never 1 static view for long
100 miles of range would require a 35KW battery, using today’s technology. That would add 400lbs to the weight of a panamera. Same with a Telluride.
Yes, and: packaging. In this type of application, you will lose a lot of trunk space.
much more than 35 kWh.... More like 40-50 kWh in PHEV world.
@@cbatiau2528 I was generously assuming 3 KW/mile consumption, but you’re probably right.
The Magic Castle was used in the 1970s probably Aron Spelling TV show with Incredible Hulk actor the late Bill Bixby ‘Magician.’
Porsche having a 19.2kW on board charger is great but to take advantage of that you need a 100A breaker supporting that 80A EVSE hardwired in. I manage easily with half that with my IONIQ 5 at the limit of what can be plugged in. Speaking of half, I won’t mention my MSRP but would encourage anyone toying with the idea of adding an outlet to have the wire pulled capable of double the current. That way in the future you’re not stuck having to upgrade the outlet wire because you want more juice for quicker charging for that bigger battery on your wish list. My 77.4kWh charges over night easily once every few hundred miles a time or two a week. I’d like to see Porsche’s efficiency at the current size increased as well as the battery size. That full length of vehicle center console looks like a potential for that extra capacity. Nice scientific study. 😉 12:01
19.2 kW? that must be the Taycan... I think that the Panamera here has only 7 or 9 kW capability.
@@cbatiau2528 , you may be right because I was using this browser on my iPhone to search Porsches webpage. My full BEV only has a 10kW on board Charger so either one of those lower figures are quite respectable for PHEV’s.
A 50a breaker is more than enough
I have a 2022 Cayenne plug-in. 40km (25 mile) EV range is just not enough. But make it double and plug in hybrids start making sense.
The Magic Castle was the most interesting part. I’ve never heard of anything like it.
AMAZING place. I am not a magic guy but had a great time. We were there for over 6 hours and saw shows in every theater. Even was part of the show in the small theater. Only thing missing was a cigar lounge.
@@MotoManTV
You are THE MAGIC guy Mr. Motoman!
Your cars reviews are full of magics! 👌🙏
BTW,due in all respects to hybrid and electric car industry,even in my most horror movie's dream I can't imagine to switch my 2015 panamera gts for something like this.
NO WAY!!!
Super nice video. I am slowly looking for options to swap my Macan for another daily, Panamera being one of them and e hybrid version could be a possible one, but I am still a bit scared with all of the possible charging infrastructure issues I might need to solve, especially plug in at my underground parking.
Great video. Loved the format of "living with..." and seeing you and the car doing what people normally do like going to the gym, the office, going out. Excellent as always! By the way, there is a great Italian coffee shop near the airport there called Caffe Tre Venezie.
Funny you mention Caffe Tre Venezie. That is where we meet each week to kick off our Classic Car Drives.
Looking sharp in that suit, M. I also like the blue laces.
Excellent work, like always.
Thank you, sir! I need to bring back the jacket with the pocket square:)
@@MotoManTV my pleasure!
Haha now that you've mentioned it, it would make the perfect attire for the winter episodes.
I hit the like button everytime. Free.
And still want smaller tires and rims to a certain point and lighter.
17 inch.
And a 100 mile ev minimum range.
Nice car
Another winner. Great video. A very informative and thought provoking scenario. 💯 on the range vs cost factors in this particular application.
It gets more exciting when the warranty expires…
That is a TOTALLY different episode:)
Def need a bigger socket at home. Paid $400 for a bigger 40a socket
You really do a great job with your channel.. I never miss an episode!
New tech is likely to produce lighter higher capacity batteries, the question to ask is how long do you want to wait, and how to avoid buyer’s remorse.
Right on point with this video! The 2024 Cayenne PHEV supposedly has around 50 Mile range; my question is does the battery charge off the engine if in hybrid mode? Or.. only by plugging it in? What happens when the battery is charged out? Also, I've heard the brake pedal is weird on these hybrid Porsches>?
Yes, the battery charges while driving. And no, there is no discernible difference in brake pedal feel.
I like this real-life test a lot. So if you have a level 2 charger at home and in the office you are good - also I copy that you want not engage the gas engine for all normal driving throughout the week. It only can be a compromise - have 2 drive trains on board. Love the interior looks awesome!
Would it be my ride to the magic castle? If it would be my only ride and I would need to go on longer trips like 2 times a month? to Las Vegas or SF? Probably.
But I am not living in the US. Over here we have a good functional CCS grid.
Here I would now choose a daily driver with a 300miles range.
My main concern with plug in hybrids is what happens if your commute is short enough to almost never use the petrol engine and the fuel starts getting old, degrading and decaying.
My PHEV has a pressurized fuel tank that allows the fuel to last much longer. It's also only a 7 gallon tank but still provides 5 hours of highway driving as a hybrid. Since I can't drive any longer than that without a pit stop it's plenty of gas engine range. If you're in electric only use for a long time the software in the car will run the engine for a short time to keep everything properly lubricated. Honda Clarity PHEV. Best car I've ever owned.
Hey you can just change the drive mode to sport or something.. so it runs only in gasoline
@@u.a.nugroho On my car I do a long press on the hybrid button and that saves the battery charge where it is at the time and it runs as a normal hybrid with the gas motor generating the electricity for the drive wheels. I believe most PHEV's have this feature. It's what you do for highway driving...keep the battery capacity for in-city driving.
If a person wanted to drive a vehicle with out using any fossil fuel, seems to me the best choice would be an all electric vehicle. I was more interested in seeing how the Panamera e-Hybrid performed as a gas- electric car. i.e does the gas engine sufficiently charge the electric battery. Can you use a conjunction of both motors to increase your driving range. How is the performance affected by the use of both motors simultaneously.
You shows that its a 14.1kwh battery on the screen text but when you charged it you mentioned its got the newer 17.9kwh battery.
does the gas engine charge the battery while in operation ? I understand that defeats the purpose of a PHEV in terms of E power only and fuel savings. But fuel is not as bad as 2021 where $6/g was normal.
Yes, it does charge while driving. Faster in Sport Plus mode
We all love big potent engines, but it may be time for the big brands to look better at what Koenigsegg is doing with the upcoming Gemera. Tiny but powerful engine that seems to sound just fine, but saves huge weight over the token V6 or V8.
No complex and heavy gearbox, because electrified. Just a torque converter to take you from 30 mph to 255 mph, in record time. I'm looking for the new energy holy grail still, true energy autonomy. Until we find that (back), we can optimize the parameters with PHEVs.
You want more range on pure electric from an PHEV buy Merc GLE 350 e or GLE 350 de. I have one since aug '21: 75 km on pure electric (highway driving mostly when commuting) and the 2l diesel is doing the job on the long distance journeys. That simple it is...
You don't need 2 cars, only one it's good enough
I fully agree. The MB e-diesels are awesome and the 100km EV range is more than enough to fulfill both needs for daily electric short range commutes and the occasional longer drives.
Plug-in hybrids are much better than full EV's. This is the more logical step and agreeable to more buyers. EV's are about to hit maximum market saturation soon and manufacturers are going to regret this huge shift when buyers dry up - already showing big warning signs amongst the luxury EV market. No one wants to be stuck holding the bag of a 100k+ EV that's last year's tech (iphone conundrum). My wife has a Panamera eHybrid and loves it, it's the perfect car for her long commute. She gets 1,000 miles a tank. I had a Taycan and sold it in 5 months, it sucked - charging was maddening and the range was horrible + values were tanking. I am a manual 911 guy and won't make that mistake again. The 718 is probably the most tracked car Porsche makes (cheapest sports car), they are making a huge mistake telling future buyers "guess what, you can't track this EV 718 now and we are going to add 1,000lbs to the small sports car" - insane business move in my opinion. No one cares about an EV sports car, check Rennlist, barely any excitement.
Great real world feedback on your wife's car.
Disagree . Hybrids are bad at both
How is charging “maddening”? Just install the correct thing at home … user error
With a finite battery supply it makes more sense to build 5 plug-in hybrids instead of 1 full EV. More people get the benefit of reduced fuel usage.
MotoMan, nice threads at the Magic Castle!
Thank you, Mike!
its very good to live with and drive panamera plug in hybrid.
Thanks for the info.
The interior. ❤😍👍
If you stay at the magic castle hotel next door that gives you a pass to get into the magic castle that same day
Good to know! Some sad news, just a couple of days after we were there, the founder passed. beverlypress.com/2023/05/milt-larsen-magic-castle-co-founder-passes-away-at-92/#:~:text=Milton%20%E2%80%9CMilt%E2%80%9D%20Larsen%2C%20co,at%20the%20age%20of%2092.
Deal-breaker for me is the battery makes the trunk smaller
Impressive video.
I'm waiting for the new Cayenne Coupe phev with 45-50 electric miles!
In my opinion the best hybrid is the one that can charge the batteries on the go by itself. And yes you can still plug that in the sockeet and recharge it when available. Why the Porsche doesn''t have that I don't know. Maybe the costs are too high or something else. But like the Motoman said the real world range has to be better and it is about time that the manufacturers stop lying about the range because in this day and age and since everybody knows that the ranges listed are not real the manufacturers should address that.
Porsche does have that, as do all PHEVs that I know of. All PHEVs charge the traction batteries via regen when slowing down or braking. Also, all PHEVs have an option to charge the traction battery using the ICE while driving (usually called "Charge" mode). And Porsches charge the traction battery fastest when driving in Sport or Sport Plus mode (ICE on always). All PHEVs that I know of (Porsche, Volvo, Toyota) charge much faster off the ICE than when they are plugged in to even a 240-volt outlet. As for range: in local (non-highway) driving, at speeds < 45 mph, which is where electric motors are much more efficient than ICEs are, here are some real-world, verified all-electric range for PHEVs: 2022 Volvo XC60 ER, 40 miles; 2021 RAV4 Prime, 50 miles; 2024 Cayenne E-Hybrid, 45 miles. The first two are via my personal ownership; the last is via Kyle Conner's range test (UA-cam video).
Great review as usual! Until the power supply and transmission of that power as well as charging stations availability improves not for me!
Answer is “Yes!”
Of course more e range would be even better, at the cost of weight, $, etc., which shall improve in years to come.
I totally agree with you here. Porsche loves to add more trims, their lineup is a mess. Just create a “Panamera 4 E-Hybrid+” with the extended battery
Informstive video. Certainly put it in perspective from a real world stand point.
Jealous you got an invite to the Magic Castle. Been trying to get there for years. Unfortunately I dont know any members or how to get an invite
We were invited by 'Irma'.
Was this made by Hermosa Beach the area looks familiar if so have you been to Martha's for breakfast keep up the good work really enjoy your content
Good eye! This was primarily shot in the South Bay of LA . . . And yes, Martha's rocks but I am also a big fan of Eat @ Joe's in Redondo . . .
The video captures the practical shortfalls of BEV, PHEV. I remain unconvinced that BEV is a practical long range transportation solution, at least here in the States, where we always drive further…plus the realities of the capacity to produce enough power, and the grid deficiencies. That doesn’t begin to address the rare earth metal cost and production, which absent a significant leap in technology limits the practicality of “low cost” long range (EV) vehicles.
Toyota has a better vision, which is to mostly use hybrid technology…which is affordable by virtue of the smaller battery. It delivers more energy efficient vehicles into more households, which lowers carbon emissions. In typical government fashion here and elsewhere they are attempting to legislate the ICE out of existence rather than look for the most practical and low cost effort to lower emissions by leveraging hybrid technologies + ICE.
That said, I prefer the concept of PHEV. I would spring for the extra 10K on a Panamera with additional range because it is still fun to drive without range anxiety.
Agreed about Toyota.
i think people get scare of the battery failing
doesn't fast charging shortens the battery life, as well?
you can't fast-charge (DC-charge) a PHEV like this... 240-volt charging is fine... they have buffers and are designed for daily full charging, unlike full BEVs.
Your mates at TFL car commented that:
Unless you are as you are supposed to and charge a PHEV/ Plug-in Hybrid; or as Lamborghini bastardise HPEV - High Performance EV/ Electric Vehicle:
You are transporting around dead weight - the battery and motor.
Electricity is expensive here in the UK and I don’t see how they can claim you are getting 60mph or whatever with a PHEV, because you are paying and powering it separately from gas/ petrol with electricity from the grid.
I would hold off having a PHEV or EV
for as long as possible.
Nobody says at: Bentley, for example, who will be TOTALLY EV (No PHEV) by 2030 and with the first EV around 2025:
What happens to the exclusively ICE/ Internal Combustion engine cars they are currently marketing from the point of servicing; parts and resale after 2030 when new ICE are banned in Europe.
Maybe the UK after BREXIT can now continue with ICE cars, although manufacturers won’t be making them after 2030.
Hopefully the whole think is unviable.
Nobody is building the infrastructure.
We need more nuclear power stations.
I would get a W12 Bentley Flying Spur; Continental GT; Continental GTC convertible or Bentayga (but Bentayga W12 not available bizarrely in Europe) in their last production year to April 2024.
You have to order one now.
Before the W12 engine ceased production in April 2024 and the V8 continues as the sole ICE with the Porsche V6 PHEV 12V in the Bentayga and Flying Spur.
EV are only suitable without an Elon Musk Tesla gold standard network of high capacity chargers (you can pay to use them with an App for your cell phone) and are really exclusively for use within range of your home or in a city like London.
You can see the benefits of PHEV/ EV are primarily to clean up air: lead; nitrogen dioxide and soot/ carbon particles where young children are near schools.
Isn't it odd that this Porsche is heavier than a same footprint big cargo space, big battery, Tesla Model S? Taycan is a bit more cramped than Panamera and weighs a bit more, depending on batttery size.
Porsche rarely does lightweight I guess, and few brands manage to plug-in in a way that seems weight-efficient, but with a (very) long range "bigger" BEV ending up lighter, is just odd. I love quick refills when I need them, but since all Panamera owners will surely have access to home charging, the battery being small makes less sense with the car ending up bulky anyway.
How much to replace the batteries when they wear out, your car would have zero value unless you buy new batteries when comes to selling the car
It's funny that a PHEV gives us an inverse range anxiety problem. We want to go as far as possible on EV-only despite having the ICE there to complete any lengthy trips. I mean really if you want to maximize your EV-only range why are we buying a PHEV in the first place?
sigh... We're on our third PHEV (two currently). We drive locally daily in all-electric mode (charging only at home), but then do long bi-monthly road trips where we don't want to deal with the hassles of public charging. That's why people buy PHEVs. We hate going to gas stations, and rarely have to do so at home, but going to gas stations on long roadtrips is the lesser of two evils (vs. public charging).
Agreed it’s dumb
You clearly enjoyed living with this car….
I think the new Cayenne has about 45 miles of range
-More stuff like this
Plug ins will be the main cars during the transition period to electric. Get used to them people
How is this a luxury to plug the thing in, every single day. For such moneys it must have wireless charging.
No EV for me. Thank thee.
It's weird to me that BEVs can hide a 700 kg battery in the floor and have great cargo space, but PHEVs stick the battery where you wanted to put cargo. Lazy engineering. If the cared it would be under the rear seats and in the gear tunnel, surely?
he said it's for weight distribution and better handling
@@cbatiau2528 Yeah lazy brands will explain everything away like that.
Who the fk chooses red leather interior 🤮
I think a PHEV is the worst of both worlds. I'd get an ev so I could charge at home...not because I care about "climate change" but only to avoid the painful act of witnessing the trashy behavior so common at gas stations by the average American. I'd get a gas car for road trips. If I could afford a Porsche, I'd get an E.V. from another maker.
Well PHEV are a compromise - meaning you charge at home and can do the normal stall electrical every day, if you need to go on a longer road trip - you use gas, meaning if its for you its for you as a one car solution.
@@bavariancarenthusiast2722 It's a poor compromise.
@@weirdshibainu is there any better on the market you would chose?
@@bavariancarenthusiast2722 exactly
@@weirdshibainu no, it's a great compromise for many, including us
I still have zero interest in a hybrid or EV.