I’m continuation betting for about 100-125. Subsequently the action would have been different.. I only would have check-raised if I was heads-up with the BU on this board.
I'm betting 125 on the flop. I would assume the button still calls but does the LJ still call or does he throw in the check raise? Either way hero would have saved money if he had just continuation bet the flop instead of check raising.
I don't mind checking the flop with KK. You can't be betting all of your strong hands, you do have to check with some of them. I think KK with a diamond is one of the best overpairs to not be betting. I'd much rather bet a lower overpair like QQ, JJ, or 10-10, and to bet an overpair that doesn't have a diamond and can get called by more flush draws. I don't know if check-raising the button is the right move, but after the LJ calls, I think you want to check-raise to keep from going three ways to the turn. I think it's got to be a much bigger check raise, like 450-500. Maybe even 550 or 600. If the LJ had folded, I'd probably just check-call the 125, but because the LJ called, I think check-raising is the right move. After the back raise to 825, I think I call because the 325 raise was way too small, which I think makes the villain a bit more wide and bluff heavy. I think if I had raised to 450-600 and been back raised, it would be a bit easier to fold. But there are so many diamond draws that the villain could have, or even hands like 7-6 or 6-4 (which is double gutted). I think that a hand like A-4 or A-3 of diamonds is the most likely hand for the villain to back raise with, although a hand like 9-7, 7-6, or 6-4 of diamonds is also quite possible (as are sets, of course). After check-raising to just 325 (too small in my opinion, even if there wasn't a call in between, so definitely way too small since there was a call in between), I think that there's just too many bluffs here from the villain. But on the turn I think I'd fold, because the diamond draws get there, and even A-X of spades gets there. The only thing I'd be beating is 8-X that turned top pair into a bluff, and straight draws like 9-7, 7-6, 6-4, or 4-3 of spades.
@@gabrielrockmanI like your analysis here. I was thinking about 76dd, not seeing that 64dd has the same number of outs. One thing I think we might be overlooking here is that if we believe LJ is just going to lead out or check raise with sets and 2P, and he's going to make this play wider when hero raises so small, then his range here gets weighted so heavily towards bluffs, maybe we should 4b-jam to put max pressure on those combo draws.
@@1vailchris It's a gutsy move to 4 bet (which would have to be a shove) to deny equity to the straight draws & diamond draws (especially the Ace high flush draws or wheel draws), but I think it might be the right move. Hopefully it's never a situation that I end up in. I hope that I always size a check-raise properly, and that I never check raise and make it just 200 to call into a pot of 890. If hero had check-raised to a proper size, I think 6-4 of diamonds just folds instead of making the fancy check-call-raise play. And I think if hero had check-raised to a proper size and still gets back raised, I think he can safely fold. (side note: if button had bet a proper size on the flop, he might have folded out the 6-4 of diamonds, and I do think the button should have bet like 200-250 on this flop instead of 125 in order to get more folds and deny equity). I don't know if I would have the guts to 4 bet to deny equity. It's almost like turning your hand into a bluff. I like betting to deny equity, and I don't think that people do it often enough. But turning an overpair into a 4 bet bluff takes a lot of guts, and I don't think that I have those guts.
I was saying 6-7 ♦️ the whole time. 97, 64 all those combo draws. Way more likely than a set. I don’t know why Bart and the caller didn’t discuss those hands at all as possibilities until after the reveal.
@@ThePatriots010304 Exactly, I think although Bart plays 2/5 and 5/10 for content, he doesn’t quite play those stakes enough anymore to know typical pre-flop ranges at those stakes. I play a lot of 2/5 and some 5/10 whenever it’s running at my home casino. I immediately ranged villain on 67 ♦️ which is essentially the same hand. Because of my experience at these stakes.
@@UnknownWarriorZz brother..... you play in soft ass games in the middle of this country somewhere or Texas, maybe Florida..... If youre calling 20 BB 3 bets with gapped suited connectors to the 6.... youre a momo.
Stopped at 15:33 (before the reveal) to say that 67dd would be an _awesome_ hand for the LJ villain to take this line with, simply because of how much raw equity he'd have in that spot. You have enough equity to just call the button's bet on the flop, and once the hero makes his hand _so_ face up with the flop XR, you can happily hoist the mainsail and go for it with the back-raise. Then when the Ad comes in on the turn, it's perfection, because now the hero can't have _any_ Axdd.
Bart shoulda pointed out how villain wasn't afraid of hero's possible turned set of AA. Always smile when Bart says someone isn't supposed to have a certain hand.
Was in same situation with qq 3 way 997 flop OMC shoved after a pot bet pot call I folded with the best..man on my right picked up on this and tried it two orbits later noticed him trying to make same play on a double paired board I hollywooded and he bet into a very very strong hand for two streets before I shoved when he had about 100 left he folded. Always have awareness no tilt! If it wasn’t for that bluff lose I would have never doubled up.
I think V calls on flop because there is a risk that he is against the nut flush draw in a 3-way 3-bet pot. Once button folds, and based on the assumption that H does not have a flush draw the way the H plays flop, that opens the door for V to ck raise H.
People have to remember that just because a person is a reg doesn't make them a good player. If villain really did have 6,4 of diamonds, then he shouldn't have been in the hand to begin with.
calling 10 BB at this stack depth isn't that wild of a call. I would nearly never make it. It is lighting money of fire. But that is what most players are there to do, light money on fire.
Its hard to make a massive equity mistake preflop when live games are under 3 bet in a time (no rake) environment. A majority of the issues with opening wide are if people are 3 betting at the correct frequency. But feel free take complacency in a narrow minded approach to poker, its why most don't make it.
Terrific hand, and I'm with Bart on this one. I would have expected the villain, with 64dd, to have gone for the check-raise immediately, rather than calling and then back-raising. I was almost 100% sure it was going to be a set.
Bart seems to keep miscounting flush outs Vs sets and trips. In most case you cannot have 9 flush outs as either one of the flush cards is in your opponent's hand or it makes them a boat.
Villain played this like he’s playing limit poker. This is a great line for building the pot with his massive draw but he’s minimizing his fold equity when he doesn’t make the PFR face a bet and raise all at once.
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj to be fair I wouldn’t have ever checked the flop to begin with considering another player in the mix. So hard to imagine what would happen after
I don't know about folding to the back raise. I could see hands like A-3 of diamonds or 7-6 of diamonds doing this. Maybe even 6-4 of diamonds (a bit loose, but I don't think its as bad as Bart thinks it is). Or 5-X of diamonds. I could even see A-X of spades, 8-X of spades, or a 7-6 suited hand doing this, but those are less likely. 6-4 is an interesting one because it's double gutted on the flop. I think there's enough bluffs that you can't just assume that he's got a set when he back raises. Raising from 125 to 325 is way too small, and I think that messes things up a bit, and makes the villain's range a bit wider and a bit more bluff heavy than it would be otherwise. I think if the hero had raised to 450 or 500, it would be easier to fold to the back raise (and of course the back raise would have been to more than 825).
Don’t think it makes very much sense for the player to have AA, QQ, or 99 w/ d. First two should always 4bet pre given the button cold call and 99 would be speculative as HJ could conceivably have 88 which you don’t block. I do think LJ could also have A3d up to A9d with backdoors, as you pick up equity on even some non-diamond turns and any ace should give you the best hand.
just bet the flop, jeesus christ. as played... You are at the top of your range here. If you raise/fold the top of your range, its kind of a desaster, but against a range of 88/55/22 and 67dd, A4dd, A3dd, A5dd, your toast. Probably a fold. btw from what I´ve seem from Bart, he´s a nit and probably made that play with 8x and a backdoor draw, committing 40% of his stack against a c/raiser, maybe once his career... and btw, you only have 10 outs against a set, not 11.
64D is a flop combo draw for sure. Not one that is standard in this kind of spot, IMHO. Proper preflop sizing helps get rid of that "junk" hand, leaving primarily sets on the flop, which leads to folds on the turn. The result is, we're out of the hand on the turn anyway, BUT the villain likely would have been as well, having bailed preflop. Pocket Pairs don't fair well post flop on a lot of boards, unless there is a set made later on. Especially against flush combos (suited connectors/gappers), which 64DD is. This is a hand that needs to not go to the flop a lot, either folding or all in preflop. I'm probably not correct though.
If you think there is a strong chance he has a set, why call (fold)? If you think there is a strong chance he has a draw, why call (jam)? There is some sense to this reasoning, yes. And most of all, calling there would be putting too much in the pot.
even against a set, we have 10 outs on the turn to win anyway, 8 diamonds not counting the 5, and 2 kings. Probably should have just ripped it in on the flop
While it's true that in general a back raise is always a strong hand, the key differentiator here is the fact that his back raise was also a flop 3bet, and flop 3bets are always bluffs because it's too easy for the check raiser to have the nuts, so all you do with a 3bet is just get it in bad. The appropriate response in such a scenario is still to call and then let them try to bluff a blank turn. Since this turn is clearly not a blank and fits perfectly within a flop bluffing range heroes fold was good.
I don't think this makes sense as either a general principle or for this hand specifically. On an 852 flop the only truly nut hand the preflop 3bettor could maybe have is 88, which may not be a HJ 3bet and may not check-raise flop due to double-blocking opponents' top pair calls. The LJ may choose to back-raise all 8 combos of 55 and 22, aiming to play for stacks vs. HJ's overpair and knowing they will always get stacked in the rare instances the HJ has 88. You are right, though, that there are way more bluff combos if the LJ is opening wide: between 4 combo draws (64dd, 76dd, 97dd, A3dd,) 3 pair-plus backdoor draws (A5dd, 65dd, 54dd) and 9 combos of 88-blocking hands with backdoors (87s, 98s, and A8s). No guarantee live players will find all of those combos but that's still 16 bluff combos to attack a face-up overpair that just made a small check-raise.
i'm sure i'm not the only one who is wondering what the river card was. If an ace on the turn gave me top 2 of the 4 to a flush and there was no chance of a full house showing yet, whether or not i would have called that all in would have depended on how i had been running, if nothing had been hitting for me then i would have folded at the re-raise on the flop but if i had been running good then i probably would have called. strategy technique and skill can keep you from losing your ass most of the time but you aren't going to win big without getting lucky, look at the insane hands luda chris and texas mike win with, sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.
What are you doing with KK here facing this unexpected flop action?
I’m continuation betting for about 100-125. Subsequently the action would have been different.. I only would have check-raised if I was heads-up with the BU on this board.
I'm betting 125 on the flop. I would assume the button still calls but does the LJ still call or does he throw in the check raise? Either way hero would have saved money if he had just continuation bet the flop instead of check raising.
I don't mind checking the flop with KK. You can't be betting all of your strong hands, you do have to check with some of them. I think KK with a diamond is one of the best overpairs to not be betting. I'd much rather bet a lower overpair like QQ, JJ, or 10-10, and to bet an overpair that doesn't have a diamond and can get called by more flush draws.
I don't know if check-raising the button is the right move, but after the LJ calls, I think you want to check-raise to keep from going three ways to the turn. I think it's got to be a much bigger check raise, like 450-500. Maybe even 550 or 600. If the LJ had folded, I'd probably just check-call the 125, but because the LJ called, I think check-raising is the right move.
After the back raise to 825, I think I call because the 325 raise was way too small, which I think makes the villain a bit more wide and bluff heavy. I think if I had raised to 450-600 and been back raised, it would be a bit easier to fold. But there are so many diamond draws that the villain could have, or even hands like 7-6 or 6-4 (which is double gutted). I think that a hand like A-4 or A-3 of diamonds is the most likely hand for the villain to back raise with, although a hand like 9-7, 7-6, or 6-4 of diamonds is also quite possible (as are sets, of course). After check-raising to just 325 (too small in my opinion, even if there wasn't a call in between, so definitely way too small since there was a call in between), I think that there's just too many bluffs here from the villain.
But on the turn I think I'd fold, because the diamond draws get there, and even A-X of spades gets there. The only thing I'd be beating is 8-X that turned top pair into a bluff, and straight draws like 9-7, 7-6, 6-4, or 4-3 of spades.
@@gabrielrockmanI like your analysis here. I was thinking about 76dd, not seeing that 64dd has the same number of outs.
One thing I think we might be overlooking here is that if we believe LJ is just going to lead out or check raise with sets and 2P, and he's going to make this play wider when hero raises so small, then his range here gets weighted so heavily towards bluffs, maybe we should 4b-jam to put max pressure on those combo draws.
@@1vailchris It's a gutsy move to 4 bet (which would have to be a shove) to deny equity to the straight draws & diamond draws (especially the Ace high flush draws or wheel draws), but I think it might be the right move. Hopefully it's never a situation that I end up in. I hope that I always size a check-raise properly, and that I never check raise and make it just 200 to call into a pot of 890.
If hero had check-raised to a proper size, I think 6-4 of diamonds just folds instead of making the fancy check-call-raise play. And I think if hero had check-raised to a proper size and still gets back raised, I think he can safely fold. (side note: if button had bet a proper size on the flop, he might have folded out the 6-4 of diamonds, and I do think the button should have bet like 200-250 on this flop instead of 125 in order to get more folds and deny equity).
I don't know if I would have the guts to 4 bet to deny equity. It's almost like turning your hand into a bluff. I like betting to deny equity, and I don't think that people do it often enough. But turning an overpair into a 4 bet bluff takes a lot of guts, and I don't think that I have those guts.
I was saying 6-7 ♦️ the whole time. 97, 64 all those combo draws. Way more likely than a set. I don’t know why Bart and the caller didn’t discuss those hands at all as possibilities until after the reveal.
Because they gave too much respect to villain. Like Bart said, villain shouldn't have been in the hand with gapped suited connectors.
@@ThePatriots010304 Exactly, I think although Bart plays 2/5 and 5/10 for content, he doesn’t quite play those stakes enough anymore to know typical pre-flop ranges at those stakes. I play a lot of 2/5 and some 5/10 whenever it’s running at my home casino. I immediately ranged villain on 67 ♦️ which is essentially the same hand. Because of my experience at these stakes.
@@UnknownWarriorZz brother..... you play in soft ass games in the middle of this country somewhere or Texas, maybe Florida..... If youre calling 20 BB 3 bets with gapped suited connectors to the 6.... youre a momo.
@@nicklazzaro5055 Yes, Florida. Very similar to Texas. Trust me it’s standard here.
@@nicklazzaro5055what about 10k bbs deep smart ass
Stopped at 15:33 (before the reveal) to say that 67dd would be an _awesome_ hand for the LJ villain to take this line with, simply because of how much raw equity he'd have in that spot. You have enough equity to just call the button's bet on the flop, and once the hero makes his hand _so_ face up with the flop XR, you can happily hoist the mainsail and go for it with the back-raise. Then when the Ad comes in on the turn, it's perfection, because now the hero can't have _any_ Axdd.
Bart shoulda pointed out how villain wasn't afraid of hero's possible turned set of AA. Always smile when Bart says someone isn't supposed to have a certain hand.
Was in same situation with qq 3 way 997 flop OMC shoved after a pot bet pot call I folded with the best..man on my right picked up on this and tried it two orbits later noticed him trying to make same play on a double paired board I hollywooded and he bet into a very very strong hand for two streets before I shoved when he had about 100 left he folded. Always have awareness no tilt! If it wasn’t for that bluff lose I would have never doubled up.
I think V calls on flop because there is a risk that he is against the nut flush draw in a 3-way 3-bet pot. Once button folds, and based on the assumption that H does not have a flush draw the way the H plays flop, that opens the door for V to ck raise H.
People have to remember that just because a person is a reg doesn't make them a good player. If villain really did have 6,4 of diamonds, then he shouldn't have been in the hand to begin with.
calling 10 BB at this stack depth isn't that wild of a call. I would nearly never make it. It is lighting money of fire. But that is what most players are there to do, light money on fire.
Actually some of us can play a hand like 64s profitably postflop as this guy did. Good LAGs are much bigger winners than nits like you
Its hard to make a massive equity mistake preflop when live games are under 3 bet in a time (no rake) environment. A majority of the issues with opening wide are if people are 3 betting at the correct frequency. But feel free take complacency in a narrow minded approach to poker, its why most don't make it.
The passive aggressiveness is strong in the comment section!
@@temsedgwick9494 Chat pros UNITE!
I'm never in this spot, and this hand is just one of many reasons. Hero is just so much better off betting his hand.
Terrific hand, and I'm with Bart on this one. I would have expected the villain, with 64dd, to have gone for the check-raise immediately, rather than calling and then back-raising. I was almost 100% sure it was going to be a set.
I kept thinking 76 diamonds 🤷♂️🤷♂️
Bart seems to keep miscounting flush outs Vs sets and trips. In most case you cannot have 9 flush outs as either one of the flush cards is in your opponent's hand or it makes them a boat.
That was a trainwreck of a hand played by the caller.
Villain played this like he’s playing limit poker. This is a great line for building the pot with his massive draw but he’s minimizing his fold equity when he doesn’t make the PFR face a bet and raise all at once.
My whole thing is, the reason hero checks on the flop is to lay a trap, WELL IT WORKED. GET IT ALL IN AFTER HE RE RAISES.
I’d probably have folded the back raise but if not I’d have folded the turn. Just not good enough to see if your river Diamond comes in
Yeah I’m folding to the back raise.
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj to be fair I wouldn’t have ever checked the flop to begin with considering another player in the mix. So hard to imagine what would happen after
That can easily be a bluff. Actually exactly what it was.
I don't know about folding to the back raise. I could see hands like A-3 of diamonds or 7-6 of diamonds doing this. Maybe even 6-4 of diamonds (a bit loose, but I don't think its as bad as Bart thinks it is). Or 5-X of diamonds. I could even see A-X of spades, 8-X of spades, or a 7-6 suited hand doing this, but those are less likely.
6-4 is an interesting one because it's double gutted on the flop. I think there's enough bluffs that you can't just assume that he's got a set when he back raises.
Raising from 125 to 325 is way too small, and I think that messes things up a bit, and makes the villain's range a bit wider and a bit more bluff heavy than it would be otherwise. I think if the hero had raised to 450 or 500, it would be easier to fold to the back raise (and of course the back raise would have been to more than 825).
RE: the backraise on the flop: this is exactly how I would play the nut flush draw if I was LJ
I think you have to call river , pot odds
Are back raises ever a bluff at this level ?
A5 would be sick
How tf would anyone have A5 here
The backraise on the tlop is either exactly A5dd, 67dd or a set, nothing else.
Yup! and since a set would not play Flop this way, then Axd/67d/34d are the only possible hands.
And yet, it wasn't.
64dd is for most purposes the same as 67dd post flop in this scenario.
67d,97d,89s,78s,a5d,a8s
88,55?
AA,QQ,,99w/d
first hands coming to mind on the flop
Don’t think it makes very much sense for the player to have AA, QQ, or 99 w/ d. First two should always 4bet pre given the button cold call and 99 would be speculative as HJ could conceivably have 88 which you don’t block. I do think LJ could also have A3d up to A9d with backdoors, as you pick up equity on even some non-diamond turns and any ace should give you the best hand.
Mid way through. Such an inconsistent line from the V
He min clicked oop with a dead caller.
If he bloats the pot here KK is must likely not good
just bet the flop, jeesus christ. as played...
You are at the top of your range here. If you raise/fold the top of your range, its kind of a desaster, but against a range of 88/55/22 and 67dd, A4dd, A3dd, A5dd, your toast.
Probably a fold.
btw from what I´ve seem from Bart, he´s a nit and probably made that play with 8x and a backdoor draw, committing 40% of his stack against a c/raiser, maybe once his career... and btw, you only have 10 outs against a set, not 11.
64D is a flop combo draw for sure. Not one that is standard in this kind of spot, IMHO. Proper preflop sizing helps get rid of that "junk" hand, leaving primarily sets on the flop, which leads to folds on the turn. The result is, we're out of the hand on the turn anyway, BUT the villain likely would have been as well, having bailed preflop.
Pocket Pairs don't fair well post flop on a lot of boards, unless there is a set made later on. Especially against flush combos (suited connectors/gappers), which 64DD is.
This is a hand that needs to not go to the flop a lot, either folding or all in preflop. I'm probably not correct though.
Jam flop or fold as played.
If you think there is a strong chance he has a set, why call (fold)? If you think there is a strong chance he has a draw, why call (jam)?
There is some sense to this reasoning, yes. And most of all, calling there would be putting too much in the pot.
Fart Hanson is an absolute DWEEB 💯💯💯🤓🤓
The heroes in so many of these hands make so many obvious mistakes.
even against a set, we have 10 outs on the turn to win anyway, 8 diamonds not counting the 5, and 2 kings. Probably should have just ripped it in on the flop
Back door flush draws like in this situation is not equivalent to having 8 outs. Back doors are the equivalent of like 1 out or 2% equity.
While it's true that in general a back raise is always a strong hand, the key differentiator here is the fact that his back raise was also a flop 3bet, and flop 3bets are always bluffs because it's too easy for the check raiser to have the nuts, so all you do with a 3bet is just get it in bad. The appropriate response in such a scenario is still to call and then let them try to bluff a blank turn. Since this turn is clearly not a blank and fits perfectly within a flop bluffing range heroes fold was good.
I don't think this makes sense as either a general principle or for this hand specifically. On an 852 flop the only truly nut hand the preflop 3bettor could maybe have is 88, which may not be a HJ 3bet and may not check-raise flop due to double-blocking opponents' top pair calls. The LJ may choose to back-raise all 8 combos of 55 and 22, aiming to play for stacks vs. HJ's overpair and knowing they will always get stacked in the rare instances the HJ has 88. You are right, though, that there are way more bluff combos if the LJ is opening wide: between 4 combo draws (64dd, 76dd, 97dd, A3dd,) 3 pair-plus backdoor draws (A5dd, 65dd, 54dd) and 9 combos of 88-blocking hands with backdoors (87s, 98s, and A8s). No guarantee live players will find all of those combos but that's still 16 bluff combos to attack a face-up overpair that just made a small check-raise.
_...it's true that in general a back raise is always a strong hand..._ OPPOSITE is the truth.
i'm sure i'm not the only one who is wondering what the river card was. If an ace on the turn gave me top 2 of the 4 to a flush and there was no chance of a full house showing yet, whether or not i would have called that all in would have depended on how i had been running, if nothing had been hitting for me then i would have folded at the re-raise on the flop but if i had been running good then i probably would have called. strategy technique and skill can keep you from losing your ass most of the time but you aren't going to win big without getting lucky, look at the insane hands luda chris and texas mike win with, sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.
poker is alive.
Where do you play? Would love a spot in your games