All About ICF Foundations | This Old House
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- Опубліковано 18 чер 2024
- Kevin O’Connor learns about ICF’s (insulated concrete forms) used for the new foundation.
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Tom Silva shows Kevin O’Connor the ICF’s (insulated concrete forms) which replace traditional foundation molds. They finish up the last few forms and then pump in the concrete mix to complete the foundation.
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All About ICF Foundations | This Old House
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My house is nearly all ICF I can cool 2100sqft home 12 ft ceiling with 1 window AC unit sized for a 10x10 bedroom homes is full sun but has an overhang I designed to shade front in summer and let the full sun in winter home stayed 50d no heat on a - 20f cloudy day- 76f when suns out. Homes a high mass all passive solar -geo design that I came up with in 2007.
What vendor ICF did you go with?
How did you get a termite letter for your C.O.? Most companies will not touch an ICF.
What did you do for the roof?
I am planning to build my house as an ICF to Passive house standards (without paying for certification) with in floor heat and geothermal. Designing the southern wall for Passive solar would be ideal.
I doubt it
Family built a fully ICF Duplex about 15 years ago and it’s the best house I’ve ever been in! It’s now a dream to build my own ICF home in a few years.
there is a new home being built locally that is using this technology. it is a pretty big structure with a second level. since i saw this video i knew what they were using to build the house. i learn so much on this channel. thank you.
It's weird to use technology when talking about plastic and Styrofoam.
Amazing work
Had planned to build an ICF home 28 years ago. Local inspectors had never seen one, and were so difficult about the idea, (real goobers) that we relented and stick built with lumberr instead. Regretted that decision ever since. Ready to build an ICF on the same property, due to the ICG storm resistance and energy efficient property.
I feel you. Going through exactly same difficulties right now with some other type of build. So ICF is my fall back. Would never build my forever home with wood.
Great video - did they show the flooring construction?
Been using ICF in for a few years now and it's such a good product to work with.
Where you located, if you don’t mind me asking, there’s hardly anyone here that builds icf homes
Is there a per sq ft approximation with these to figure cost? Wondering if these will pass code here in earthquake country (NCal) I cant figure how they tie steel together unless they dont at all. Saw the offsetting of the horizontals to slip the verticals inbetween. Appreciate any response thx.
I watched the whole project they did with this. They should have kept going up with the ICF for the entire addition.
That is my plan: ICF to the roof!
@@cpad007 You can use ICFs for the roof and floors too!
I wish I would have known about this 5 years ago when I had my house built. 🥶
Seeing some comments here that show a lack of understanding about ICF. I have owned one ICF home and recently built another.
This is a truly great building system. First it is very easy to work with- like working with big “legos”. The ICF is really just the form system for reinforced concrete. And reinforced concrete is incredibly strong. When you get done you will realize that you have just built a home that will last for hundreds of years.
The ICF is very light so instead of carrying tons of framing materials or masonry materials around you have these very light blocks that you can cut with a limbing saw. The rebar all snaps into place and you can hold a lot of it together with big zip ties until you are ready to pour.
The plastic “webs” are the same width as a 2x4 (1 1/2”). They are integral to not only the form but to the reinforced concrete as well. As soon as you screw your first drywall screw into the web you will realize that it is actually stronger than wood.
The reinforced concrete is much stronger than traditional masonry walls and makes a great system for walls that are underground etc.
I've heard that poured concrete is somewhat radioactive. True?
@@pistolpete9978 Natural Radiation, same is true for any material even wood but to a much lesser degree than concrete with that said your cell phone is casting off way more than any concrete would.
Foundation only or all the way to the trusses?
@@jamess5872 Cellphones don't give off radioactive radiation, i.e. alpha or beta particles or gamma rays, which is what I think Pistol Pete is talking about. Concrete can potentially be significantly more radioactive than your surroundings depending on where the source materials come from, but normally it still falls well below the thresholds where it's considered to be a problem.
@@siggyincr7447 Your right, I forgot cell phones would be non-ionizing radiation. Sorry that was my mistake
The squeak of the styrofoam would kill me if I had to work with it every day
Matthew Shultz you don’t even notice. So cool to work with.
Bluetooth head phones. Just got done encapsulating my crawl space and it's the only way I made it through that project.
Wishing someone would video ideas for BOTH exterior and interior veneer finishes as well ?
It's basically unlimited. From wood shiplap and shake to brick to natural stuccos. Whatever you want
I wonder if theres a 2nd part to this video
Don't back fill until you have the first floor deck in place to provide bracing to the concrete foundation.
i know it's quite randomly asking but do anyone know of a good website to watch newly released tv shows online ?
@Jordan Willie Ehh I watch on Flixportal. Just search on google for it =) -bruno
@Bruno Case Thank you, I went there and it seems like they got a lot of movies there :) Appreciate it!!
@Jordan Willie glad I could help xD
Wow ..
With the rebar holding slots on the plastic pieces are you not required to tie the rebar together?
The way it slips between the bars and clips its considered fully incarcerated, it can only slide in and out the direction it's dropped in from
3:20 the poor guy in the baseball cap is thinking - "HEY! WTF! I can't believe you destroyed that - now I need to order more! I no longer feel guilty about taking a dump on your pickup's windshield when I got drunk last week!"
I understand the thought, but in reality he only needed to use that adhesive to repair that.
@@gacomeau2000 Sure - and he only needed to use a hose and a squeegee to repair the dump issue.
@@boedillard8807 I’ll relate a story about the ICF house that I (the construction company I hired) built. The porch was to be at the same height as the entry door. They cut holes in the foam to attach a ledger board (using the anchor bolt method). Then the wife decided to put the porch lower so snow would have to be one step deep before it is at the level of the door. Cut new holes 8” lower than the old holes. Take the foam cut out and use them as plugs for the old holes. Use pumped foam to seal. It is as good as new. The point is the pumped in foam can fix many things, however, it won’t do squat for the crap on the windshield.
What do you do when it come to hanging closet shelves or anything into a icf wall .
Drill on centers
When you finish off a basement with ICF walls, how do you run electrical cables? How do you install receptacles or switches if the the drywall is adhered directly to the styrofoam?
Electric gets installed before the drywall. A small chainsaw with a bolt through the bar at the proper depth (same thickness as the foam) makes quick work to cut troughs into the foam wall to run electric.
How does the water proofing process work for this material?
3 choices, either rolled&brushed on, sprayed on, or adhesive sheets (like they use on roofs for ice damming). Sometimes they add a drainage mat to facilitate water flow down to the footer drain.
Look up Poly-wall.
How do you seal it off where it buts up against the rock wall?
Spray foam
So my question is what if there is a severe water damage in the house, if the water goes into walls, how does one treat that situation?
Is it possible to pour walls and pour a suspended slab on top of them all in the same pour?
No. I don't think so. (I'm not a pro) You would need to let the concrete cure for at least 28 days before you can cap it with a slab. Technically, you would probably pour the floor after the walls cure, adding another 28days then build your support forms on top of the slab and then, pour your suspended slab.
What about termites and the styrofoam? Can someone elaborate please? Many thanx
It doesn't really matter.
Im looking to tearing down my current house and rebuilding since the original house was built in 1925 and very poorly taken care of. I have investigated the foundation walls and they are pressing in to where they need replaced. I am interested in a solid concrete wall instead of block. I have been seeing icf around and am interested in it to rebuild with. Any thoughts on a first time user. Cost, labor reliability and such.
Dynamic Solutions Matt Risinger has some good cost and general info on his channel
ua-cam.com/video/MRipzKkeQik/v-deo.html
Generally they are DIY friendly. I consult for DIY ICF builders professionally. Expect $10/wall sqft material cost and about $3-8/wall sqft for labor to hire it out. Complexity and rebar schedule make for the large variance in labor cost. Feel free to reach out and I can give you better numbers of your project if you want.
Is each lift vibrated?
Ideally, yes. Often you can’t get a stinger in the first layer and you hit the sides of the forms to try to evacuate the air. It’s also ideal to cross vibrate the transition level to blend the upper lift to the lower lift. I typically pour in 8’ lifts with a 6.5” slump and just vibrate once I can reach it with a stinger. I also have beaters on the sides to check for voids and help some too. A looser slump is nicer, so I use a 4500 psi mix in case the looser mix doesn’t reach maximum strength it is still over done.
3:28 the disgusted look of ripping the form
Lol!
I did not catch that first time around...
that guy is a hack lol, he installed this louver gutter system that does zero to taking water away from the building. Go watch it haha
So this is a no brainer for an addition if it's a livable space
07:10 What are the green squares on the outside of the forms?
Looks like zip sheathing. Probably for sealing holes and cracks that they made.
The corners will spread from the concrete pressure. To prevent this, plywood is screwed from the plastic ties in the corner form to the ties in the abutting icf form. Some scraps of plywood and a few drywall screws is all it takes.
Folks, to attach finishing the screws are placed at the foam connector ties. These systems accept all interior and exterior finishes.
How do you keep these walls VERTICAL, esp as pouring concrete into them ??
Braces. Look up giraffe bracing, or plumbwall bracing
They remind me of a large set of Legos!
Should have used Nudura. Miles ahead.
Request from (almost) desperate client. Is there any video which details how to waterproof a basement, like real watertight insulation? I'm living in the area where the underground water level changes with the season and basically water find the way into the basement whatever you do.
I have the same problem and looking for the same answers. Have you had any luck ?
FLEXSEAL IT
My neighbor built a one-level, geo-thermal ranch house with these forms on a slab. He was also a kind of geek engineer and spray foamed the attic. On a hot July day he shot the temperatures for the inside attic roof and the floor of the slab with a laser thermometer. There was only a 2 degree difference between the two measurements! A concrete guy told me the downside to using these form is ants. He said if you don't treat them with boric acid, the ants love them.
The ants haven't touched our ICF house over the past 10 years. Ants don't eat Styrofoam.
How do you remove the plastic from the concrete.
You don't. The form also serves as insulation. ICF = Insulating Concrete Form
Can you combine ICF walls with SIPS roofing?
Yes
This really looks interesting…and I’m Sorry…but I’m still a bit confused. (Increasingly, it seems, as I get older!!). But how is the form actually connected to the concrete footing? They showed running adhesive along the bottom….but certainly, that adhesive and the weight of the concrete alone can’t be doing it??? Is there a vertical piece of rebar every “so many feet” drilled down into the footing? Can anyone explain? Enjoyable educational video!
The footing is poured first with the vertical bars embedded and extended upward with the ICFs.
The foam is held together before the pour, and they are just adding concrete inside it.
Maybe I missed something but shouldn’t the comparison be based on actual floor space and not foundation size? Don’t you lose more interior floor space with traditional insulation? If so, seems like ICF is closer to traditional poured concrete than what you’ve calculated.
How does this compare price-wise to conventionally poured walls? I would imagine that this could be far cheaper due to reduced labor costs, no need to remove the forms, no need to apply waterproofing or insulation after the pour.
The outsides are can be finished using exterior coatings from the various EIFS manufacturers.
Think I remember seeing someone mention in another video that it's about $15/wall foot including labour.
Depending on your location and labor rates and technicality of the design, the price varies. Material cost of each 4’ block is about $20, corners $25, and (for 6” thick which is what I use most) use about .099 cu yds of concrete per block. At an average of $150/yd of mud (my mud is usually about $130 and I factor pump cost as the extra; some places it is much more expensive), and each form covering 5.33sq ft you get (150*.099+20)/5.33=~$6.54/wall sqft material cost. Some designs are great and have no seams (made to fit perfect block dimensions) and have just a few corners and are less than 10’ tall, and will run you closer to $10/wall sqft with labor, and others will be obnoxiously complicated with seams in every wall, tall walls, stepped foundations, curved, excessive rebar, etc. and end up be closer to $18-20/wall sqft. So, if you are doing the labor yourself, guesstimate $10/sqft, and if you are hiring it out, plan for about $16. That should get you close. Feel free to ask me any questions. I am a master installer and have no brand ties; I install and consult on all brands. I have used 5 brands so far but recommend them all and continue to try new brands to find my favorite.
@@joshualruby have you tried perfect blocks or what are your thoughts on that from video ?
@@andreycham4797 I have not used Perfect Block or seen it in person. My opinions are as follows from what I have seen:
Pros: structurally sound, good air and water sealing, simple to erect, seems less to no bracing required, uses less poured concrete, more pest deterrent
Cons: proprietary technology so is shipped from Peoria- shipping costs could be exorbitant (I typically recommend uses whichever brand is closest for this reason), uses an unconventional corner that requires shimming and strapping (not difficult, but strapping is the bane of any system- the perfect system has no screws to install that ever need to be removed, I am close to that but currently need about 1 screw for every 2lnft of wall...), needs highflow mix design (may not be suitable for all rebar schedules in all seismic zones, much less room for rebar posts and beams and such may pose concern for certain designs), blocks are heavy and can’t be tossed (I typically have one guy on rolling scaffold and one guy on the floor pushing him around and tossing up block and rebar sticks so there is minimal ladder work and elevation changing), electrical Chace’s may be more difficult but the chainsaw method may work just as well, drywall is able to be screwed anywhere? (Would be a nice perk, but I fear without ties it needs glued on or omitted and use just plaster like Gigacrete or such; could be a pro or con I suppose, but definite con if needed to glue it...), same for exterior; pro if going stucco, concerns if going with other finishes (both of these concerns are dealing with embedded anchors which from my limited knowledge of the block does not have any through straps, I may be in error on that point), need to level each course somewhat (this is really a misnomer; if the first course is level the rest self level, but without interlock you need to maintain plumb and shim for horizontal is a possibility if the footing is not flat. I prefer to just stack clear height and laser point the corners and snap a line and cut the top level and not worry about the field at all and just foam gaps in the bottom of there are any), can’t carry bundles without equipment (I typically have no equipment or limited power on job sites so only require my hand saws and can do everything from staging and such manually carrying bunks alone), more abrasive and chance of injury on sharper corners; rougher on hands and more intimidating for novices (I typically work barehanded and help homeowners build their own homes)
Conclusion: I would try the block as I love to try every method of fabrication available. I would likely only try it if I was within 4 hours of Peoria. I would also only do it on a job with less than 6 corners. And I would require at least four people due to excess weight, usually I work with two. Fatigue would be a concern. I think it’s a decent system and will provide a good wall system. If the cost for block were cheaper and you are doing it yourself I say it’s a great option. If you are hiring it out, the labor side will likely be more than standard ICF because of the fuss.
Ps. Their block topping off tool is sweet and think that’s a great idea. I use a stepped top nowadays to eliminate sill plate thermal bridging, but for a flat top that’d be nice.
the reason people are switching to ICF is because there is fewer people that work with traditional blocks and they don't build them properly. So many walls getting pushed in and fail because of ground expansion.
What's the slump?
I think Tommy is wrong. That wall does need a waterproofing coating or peel and stick, and ideally a protective board to protect and add more insulation (like Subterra foam board).
I’m interested in the cleanup of all the styrofoam bits from sawing and sanding down the edges. That’s gotta be a lot of work.
Just bury them. You would be amazed with what they bury under the lawn.
These guys are contractors. Cleaning is not in their dictionary. They’ll leave debris anywhere
Deeper the better... i found an old coke can in my wall when i was installing an egress window.
Google "shop vac"
What about heavy dirt pushing against the outer wall of this ?........
Furry Donkey it’s7+ inches of reinforced concrete it is incredibly strong stronger than a block wall.
And styrofoam has incredible compressive strength as well.
Depending on the build, sometimes you need to put in the floor joist members before back filling. I have seen a wall break when someone was in a hurry to backfill. Frankly I prefer a standard poured foundation, then icf from there up
How do you prevent termites from eating their way through the foam and getting in the wood of the house?
Yes, termites can eat through foam. However, since the structural strength of icf is concrete termites will not change the integrity of an icf wall like a wood frame wall. Since icf has a concrete core, termites are unable to eat through that concrete, therefore icf is a better solution than wood frame.
@@ctrent859 I'd like to see some of these ICF manufacturers improve the foam such that bugs won't like it. The Perfect Block has an interesting product: no bugs, fireproof, uses recycled material.
Lol.. did you forget about the 10 inches of concrete?
@@ctrent859 why would they? It is not a natural food and if they could possibly detect what was on the other side it is non food concrete.
What about the problems associated with termites and pest control people refusing to treat ICF foundations? Any truth to this?
How could termites possibly be an issue? They eat wood.
This is old did this years ago on multiple house it’s a good system but old also heard there was some kind of recall on it not sure though, my Uncal built his whole rancher home this way from ground up to the roof So it’s tornado proof the only thing tornado take is the roof whole house is concrete
Quaddeck tilt up roof ;)
Should have done a slump test on that concrete first and use a poker to settle it.
How would you hang something on these walls?
Rewatch....
He mentioned that the plastic ties can used, to screw or drill into... Or for something heavier, google all the anchoring methods for concrete...
No, Duh....
what do you mean hang? this is a foundation, its not an interior wall lmao
@@bigboat8329 Uh, it IS an interior wall...in the basement.
@@cpad007 wouldn't you still put up studs and drywall? You wont be screwing into the foundation if you're hanging something
@@bigboat8329 It depends on the ICF but most seem to have "plastic studs/webbing" contained within the form that is perfectly fine to screw directly to if desired. So one doesn't necessarily need to put up furring strips or studs but one certainly could.
Should have used 4000 psi concrete
How about telling how you can’t get a termite letter for a certificate of occupancy? No termite companies will touch an icf house
i find it funny how they make this look like they did all this in like an hour lol
Kudos to whoever wrote clueless condescending character that is Kevin.
It seems like an open invitation to termites, with the styrofoam outside. Will those 1-side ICF fit below-grade walls better? With styrofoam inside, and it's easy to adhere another waterproof layer directly to the outside.
The ICF material kills the termites, as I understand it (purposely, with a chemical)
Termites eat wood. Styrofoam has not been a part of their diet for 100's of millions of years.
Cost versus standard ?also, why stop at basement ? Build the walls out of ICF !
One day, when I win the Lottery, my 600k lake house will cost me 3.6 million because I will want all of these TOH things thrown in. ICF, radiant/zoned everything including garage floor and driveway, some crazy lotus/flower solar array, I prob wont have grass there, but I will de-thatch and compost every year, and God knows what else.
With ICF, your energy costs will be low to heat/cool. You won't necessarily need too much.
It's like living in a dry ice container
It is a low energy way to live. Our house is ICF from the basement to the top of the first floor. It's great.
I can watch concrete being poured all day long
Yeah I used to work with a lot of people just like you
I also enjoy watching other people work from my comfy chair
To bad detail questions in comments are not answered... so so sad
Sounds like the pest control people haven’t heard of reticulated perimeter treatment
I never heard of it , I’m about to build an icf home on my lot and doing lots of homework before I start my building project.
looks...expensive
shoebert31 built my ICF home for $80.00 a ft2 forms and concrete relatively cheap
@@TheMarpalm Where are you located? How much of the work did you do yourself?
Herbert Massey live in Eastern TN. We did all the ICF work up to the pour.. hired someone to help do the pour. Pretty much everything else was hired out. We did some interior trim and some painting. I did most of the final plumbing. I did act as general contractor.
If you are on Facebook I can PM you and send pictures etc
@@TheMarpalm when did you build?
@@TheMarpalm could you PM me some pics as well please? Or email? pivutpoint@gmail.com
Little styrofoam pieces EVERYWHERE!
Why fight Mother Nature? The earth moves. Let your foundation move too. Shake it off.
It's cool, but man, so much styrene must just get everywhere...
Lost of bracing $$$$$ and plywood on seams and lots and lots and lots of rebar $$$$$
All that styrofoam going into the ground though
The Earth wanted plastic for itself, didn't know how to make it, needed us. Our job is done now.
@@robertf6344 George Carlin
This seems...toxic. How's the off-gassing?
They say it's no more than softwoods, but I don't know, that's an asston of foam. Also it costs 30-40% more than a traditional method.
I highly doubt it is. It’s all about cutting costs
From what I understand expanded polystyrene doesn't off-gas much at all if the manufacturing process is done correctly. I'm guessing they produce truck loads of these everyday, they should have the process nailed.
There is no off gassing with EPS products because it is expanded with steam, like puffed rice. XPS (extruded polystyrene) does use some gas and does have some off gassing, but no ICFs I am aware of use XPS. (In fact XPS is usually commonly used as the foundation insulation when doing conventional forming, so ICF would win from that standpoint.)
Not practical at all.
That was a career ender, he said male and female.
Make it illegal. This is a scam and a way to ruin you house and be out tens of thousands in repairs in a short span of time.
You CANNOT BUILD your own house unless you're a millionaire. Everything from permits to kitchen cabinets costs more than normal salaries could cover. You're much better off buying an existing home.
Depends on where you want to build, but in most of the country that's not true.
Yea, that’s false... unless you live in Commiefornia. But still even there you could do it.
Literally doing it, I'm 30 years old. Make less then 40k a year. Building 2760 sqft.2500 sqft garage.
Banks would not loan on construction loans if they were not comparable. It is possible to build a quality house for $50/sqft of you do all the labor. I have two clients building theirs for $75/sqft or so, in a market where average is $130/sqft. They are building their own to SAVE money, because existing homes are in short supply. So, this notion of buying existing is cheaper is not just very relative to location and supply; it is usually erroneous entirely.
This weihan person must be a struggling realtor.
Garbge! Styrofoam on the inside ... :-D Screwing into plastic :-D 🤦🏽♂️Get a drill and proper anchors / dowels / plugs or what ever they call it over the ocean!
Anchor is the right thing. You drill a hole into the concrete with a pneumatic drill hammer and insert an anchor into the hole and then you put a screw into the anchor.
Before anchors were not invented, or if they had none, they made a hole much larger than required. Then inserted a piece of wood into the hole and fixed it with plaster or mortar. Sometimes the broomhandle was a bit shorter after this. In my basement some of the light switches and the lighting fixtures were installed that way. Still holds up good after almost 70 years.
Styrofoam is one of the poorest choice for indoor insulation, for the outside it will be ok. On the inside it should be mineral based, calcium silicate plates which you install like tiles on a wall with thinset. With styrofoam you could get a problem with mold.
Here's the company that makes it, you go tell them that. :D logixicf.com/
Built my ICF home a couple of years ago. There is a lot you are confused about. The “plastic” is much stronger than wood and it is tied into the concrete, into the whole pour really. Screw a drywall screw into the plastic web and then try and pull it out- you will be convinced right away.
The styrofoam works really well. Our house is very thermally efficient. This is a really good building system and I would build with it again in a heartbeat. You would be amazed at how strong the house feels. It is hurricane and tornado proof- for that matter it is bulletproof
Not true, drilling into the concrete will create thermal bridges at every screw. Screw a 1x4 into those plastic braces with 2 drywall screws and I doubt you would have the strength to pull it out. This sort of construction will easily last as long as a conventionally build basement wall, if not longer due to lack of materials that can rot over time.
@@siggyincr7447 I still don't think that polystyrol on the inside is a good thing. Only if you have HVAC. If you have a conventional heating system, like it's the case in colder climate regions (Europe or in case of the US in Alaska), you'll get a problem with mold. So on the inside it should be a mineral based insulation.