When do you think we're going to see a flood of electric trucks hitting the market? And if you liked this video, check out Are Stirling Engines the Future of Renewable Energy Storage?: ua-cam.com/video/Be3FckQoDws/v-deo.html
Electric power strip..... Has anyone considered putting an oscillating magnetic strip down the center of the lane on Interstate highways.? The field could be picked up by a coil of wire on the underside of the car. (Like the phone charging pad) this would eliminate the range problem, & cars would need way smaller battery packs.
Fuel cell semis & busses are being adopted by numerous companies, with many start ups (yes, Nikola but others like Hyzon) are being supported & adopted & developed globally. Towing & distance, whether in work or leisure, at lengths when towing, is a hard sell charge times aren't conducive, yet shorter & mid Bev's can work. Depends on the need(s). Trains, ships, planes, & flying cars & taxis drive hydrogen demand, with blue & green H2 the ones to look for (while grey H2, from fossil companies, are a concern).
@@remicaron3191 I am more hopeful than you ..please search Tony Seba and check out his work ..you will be blown away that how many disruption already happened ..and how fast the disruption virus is spreading ...just for the records ..In a lithium ion battery 2% is total lithium used and if you using a Iron phosphate battery then the cathode and anode material is so abundant and cheap that you can literally make infinite battery..
@@tommersch4296 what they mean by capacity is that semi trucks are restricted by a weight limit. truck and trailer weight equals 3 and load size equals 4 so overall capacity equals 3+4=7. The capacity can be raised by adding more axles, but that adds more weight and wear items while making the trailer more complex (added axles need to lift up for turns).
@@tommersch4296 diesel electric trains still use diesel engines to power them. The capacity of which ultimately comes from diesel combustion. Plus fully electric trains are used for passenger transport not freight. So the main problem still remains.
Why do freight trucks just throw the load in the back and tow it from the front? Is that the most efficient way of bearing the load given the rectangular volumes they carry, or is it also a logistical matter where it might be impractical to do it any other way since everyone already does it this way already, and it's just good enough in most scenarios anyways, etc
Here in the US. A diesel truck can drive 1,000 miles before you have to fuel it. Also in 11 hrs you can drive up 700 miles or more depending on traffic etc. If you put a heavy load on electric trucks the 300 to 500 mile range will be decreased. The 70 to 90 minutes charging time for electric trucks takes time from driving. You can fuel a diesel truck with 300 gallons in 15 minutes
Here in Aus we have trucks that typically range from 25 - 35 Meters can reach up 50+ meters long in some states, They pull anywhere from 80 - 200 tonnes and are expected to cover hundreds and sometimes thousands of Km's of unsealed roads in remote areas. Even places with sealed roads on major highways ain't it. No one's going to be able to fix an electric truck out on the nullarbour. It is 750K's of nothing at 35C in the day -2C at night and that's without factoring in the road temp. Electric vehicles have their place but its not for long haul trucking. Too many folk want to put all their egg's in one basket.
You're comparing level 1 electric truck to level 99 diesel truck, give electric some time to grow up and evolve, the first diesels were not great either
@@ferdtheterd3897 Except that this whole thing forgets how much carbon based power stations are going to be made to sustain all these trucks to get power.
Curious, unless I missed it, you did not touch on the carrying capacity of the Tesla Semi. Elon did the same thing at the unveiling a couple (several) years back. If the energy density in 1kg of fuel equates to 19kg of Tesla's newest battery cell structure (and it does) then you are going to need like 15-18 tons of battery just to get 500 miles with a load of pillows or uncompressed cotton. Not even sure you can put all that weight in batteries just on the tractor because of axle weight restrictions. So not only will a Tesla semi be limited to less than a third of a diesel's cargo load capacity, I think you'd also need a custom trailer to hold the rest of the batteries to keep all the axle weights legal. There is no way Tesla doesn't already know this. My guess is this thing will end up being a 24 foot cube van for inner-city deliveries only.
Are you sure you really want to do that, most of the roads would be blocked with stranded electric trucks. Some guys did a real world test of a electric pickup pulling a trailer in the hills, and guess what the range at highway speed going up hill was dismal. And they did it on a 70deg day, now if it was 15 below it would have been even worse.
I think electric lorries (trucks in the UK) would work well in the UK. They don't have huge distances to go and if charging takes about 90 mins then they can charge while on lunch or when at the depot/delivery point.
They certainly seem worth trying for fixed route large deliveries, like supermarket distribution centres, where the infrastructure will get a good return on investment.
for everything else rail should be the go to it's way more efficient you invest into the infrastructure once so you don't have to lug around a huge battery or a Diesel tank or even superfluous drivers EDIT: no more incest
Since every truck driver must make a stop of at least 30 minutes after 4 hours driving, I would think they would target reloading for shorter periods during those brakes. And maybe at hubs while being loaded/unloaded (for trucks in distribution networks for supermarkets etc)
That's a great idea, unless they can get diesel fuel cheaply due to location* Another big area for electric automobiles is warehouses, and they'll probably be autonomous,, both small and larger applications.
Just as most warehouse fork lifts and pallet "transporters" are electric, Short and Ultra-short high volume transport is a fit for EV -as long as the battery+drivetrain weight is similar to the weight of Diesel Drivetrain+fuel, there will be no "hit to transport capacity". Like city-cars, local transport is the obvious fit. For on-highway long distance transport, 80% ... (quick charge capacity - batteries LOVE working between 20% and 80% capacity - not too far outside those limits) ...range needs to be in the 5-6 hour Driving intervals (~360 mile (~580km) range) between rest stops (30 minute rest every 5 or 6 hours is fairly common - regulations may vary for different countries/regions).
@David Brookes , sound much like the condition of Transit Bus Fleets. However, with the owner being municipalities or public the incentive is much higher & there does not appear to be that much conversion to electic propulsion.
Matt I love your channel, and this is yet another great video but I am a truck guy and I have some quibbles with your analyses: EV and ICE trucks may both require the same amount of tires, however diesel trucks require many more fluids and filtration then EVs do, and when it comes to 18 wheelers. those are pretty significant costs. In addition to that all diesel engines that are built after 2010 consume DEF which is an additional cost, There are also brakes and the maintenance of the DPF filter to be considered. In addition to that I don't think the disruption will necessarily come in the the long haul at least not initially . Regional trucking in major metropolitan areas is where EV trucks will dominate. Many trucks spend there average days droning around in stop and go traffic at least for parts of their duty cycle. One must consider that every single second that a diesel truck is standing still in traffic it is idling and thus consuming energy vs an EV which is pretty much consuming nothing when it isn't moving, this may seem trivial but it really can and does add up. The simplest way to put it is, the major initial disruption will not come from trucks that run 100k annually, rather from applications where trucks that run all day but go relatively short distances during that time where the savings will really manifest. Sorry for the long rant it's a subject I'm passionate about. Thank you again Matt for what you do. Cheers!!!!
as owner of 15 diesel Semi operating in US-CAN , Diesel engine repair is too expensive to operate it. people try everything to from Emission controls bypass and buying 20 years old trucks which legally don't require emission control but they are largest polluters.
Excellent comment, your points are correct and material to the comparison. So thankyou, no apologies necessary. Those trucks in the cities in stop and go traffic are a big source of pollution in a small area, and it seems like they are everywhere as I walk around trying to breath.
Deliveries within and near cities are such obviously perfect use for electric trucks and vans that it amazes me more companies didn't build their own when none were on the market.
I am a retired truck driver from the UK, by far the biggest overhead for running a truck it’s a fuel costs if you take that down transport companies would jump at it, the big problem I can see is taxation, A big chunk of the cost of diesel‘s tax the government takes a very big wedge, so where is the government going to find the revenue obvious to me they’ll put it on battery charging defeating any financial advantage
@@Brandon_letsgo It costs even more in Norway, Denmark and Sweden and is roughly the same in Netherlands, Portugal and Italy so for Europe it's only a bit higher than the average.
@@Nolligan That's terrible since there's no commerce without transportation. Tax on energy is the most regressive kinda tax that existis. It's morally indefensible.
@@Brandon_letsgo I don’t think the Queen still collects taxes. I believe that’s the role of the Treasury and it makes sense that the tax collected goes towards maintaining and improving roads. Except it doesn’t as it goes into geneal revenue. So you’re still right - Brits and Aussies are ripped off.
Its interesting to see a well thought out perspective from someone outside trucking. I've driven trucks in Europe for about 20 years, so I have a fair understanding of the industry. A couple of areas I feel you did not take in to account is the vast majority of trucks driving local routes don't just have one driver. Most of the work I've done involved handing the truck to the next driver. The truck isn't sitting still for the 90 mins it takes to achieve the 80% charge. So add the cost of 2 or 3 extra trucks to the fleet to maintain maximum work load, then the cost of maintenance, insurance, repairs etc. It all adds up and diminishes the advantage of battery powered electric trucks. The saying in trucking is "if its moving, its making you money. If its sitting still, its costing you money". You highlight in the video the average millage per year and life span of the truck. Most of the larger companies I've worked for replace the trucks at 750,000 - 1,000,000km (Its Europe so its metric) but I have driven trucks that have driven 1.5 - 2 million km. Normally at the end of its life with the company that bought it new the truck is sold in the used market. Have you ever tried to use a 10 year old battery, like in a laptop or a phone. The battery loses its ability to hold a charge with each charge. A diesel truck does not suffer this in anywhere near the same way. So add the devaluation of the resale value trucks to the equation and batteries are a larger cost in the long term compared to diesel. For me hydrogen wins hands down in trucking. Compared to diesel, its cheaper, more efficient, refuel time is the same, one stop at the pumps to tank up does a days or nights work and compared to batteries it has greater range. But most importantly weighs less. As trucks have total weight limited that includes the cargo (in Europe this is 44ton), hydrogen trucks will be able to carry more cargo. My personal belief is that cars will continue with batteries but heavy haulage will go down the hydrogen path. This will in turn lead to the hydrogen infrastructure being built. Once that's in place, car drivers regularly driving beyond the range of the battery and having to do a 90 min stop to fuel up will want a return to 5 mins stops on the forecourt. At the end we will have a mix on EV solutions.
I like your comment. Furthermore looking at it from a holistic point of view, one of the beast paths to decarbonise heating in the residential sector is to move to hydrogen. A hydrogen infrastructure is needed in many countries and this transition can be accelerated by having other sectors demanding that resource as well. I think EVs and hydrogen are both equally required, and not necessarily in opposition, but i definitively see the advantages of hydrogen to advance decarbonisation in other sectors. In regards to the blue vs green hydrogen situation, I thibk blue hydrogen can kick-start the industry moving towards scaling up the required hydrogen infrastructure, but i would be worry that the strategy would be to rely solely on this supply in the long term. There must be clear plans to speed up green hydrogen production and phase out blue hydrogen as soon as possible.
Very well said sir. Also can this truck drive thru some flooded area diesel truck still is the way to go. There are part of the world electric powered truck may not be viable let say road train this trucks are massive can electric truck replace them? Its all about range and the heavier the truck the more battery it need to move the truck and the load.
Well said, but as far as I know humans did not invent safe and cheap way to use hydrogen. I mean yeah, it's cheaper and lighter, but it's also way more prone to leakage and inflammation. Have I missed some cool new tech that lets people to distribute, dispense and use H as a fuel that has appeared in the last year or two? Because nothing that we use today is suitable. Oh, and in case you say "we will find the ways later" - yes, we will, but lets not repeat the same mistake we did with electro cars, lets start thinking about using hydrogen as a fuel AFTER we find a way to use it?
Very valid points. The main problem of hydrogen is the low efficiency. The so called green hydrogen is produced through electrolysis using electricity generated from renewable energy sources. The process has energy losses of about 20-30%. Then the hydrogen needs to be compressed to 350 bar or 700 bar at a cost of 3-6% loss, or cooled to be in liquid state at much higher costs. The compressed or liquid hydrogen is then transported and distributed, again, with losses of about 10%. Now the truck is filled with hydrogen, of which only about 50% percent can be converted into electricity by fuel cells. All of these means the electricity - hydrogen - electricity conversion efficiency is somewhere about 30%. Handling of electricity has much higher efficiency.
@Al Jaume @Robert 3nidad @Anton Morozov @Chang Luo I fully believe that what way large goods vehicles go in terms on EV power storage will shape what everyone does for anything outside local driving (local being a radius of half the battery range or "there and back"). You guys bring up some points I'd never considered like flooded areas or road trains but I wonder how artic and mountain driving effect the batteries performance. I think this is not something that will be decided by drivers, planners or transport managers. Its going to be the accountants as its all going to come down to the profit at the end of the life cycle of the truck. The other thing we should take in to account is if green hydrogen becomes readily available or solid state batteries deliver what is expected then the winner becomes obvious. I definitely see the benefit of a mixed solution if the second hand market is relatively unaffected by the batteries life span. I know Tesla have some high confidence in the life span of the battery but have you seen the cost to replace a tesla battery? Personally I'd have a hydrogen as I regularly travel across Europe in a car. My current 9-10 hour drive becomes about 14 hours with current battery tech. Chang Luo, I remember seeing this somewhere before and I think even with hydrogen being a low percentage for the efficiency of the whole life cycle it was still better than what we currently have. Also I think electric was around a 80 or 90%. I may be wrong on this as I cant find where I saw it.
But...does the "cost" of electricity include the underlying cost of charging stations? The grid build out to support them? Also, what happens to the mountains of toxic batteries when they reach end of life?
As for the battery question, I've heard that upcoming Solid-State Batteries would solve that issue, or at least significantly reduce battery-related waste.
@@louisshin642 I have seen many proposed alternatives which appear to be in the works. My point is that right know, today, they are doubling down on lithium/cobalt.
We can't possibly charge all the electric trucks we would need without greatly expanding the electric grid. And there's no money or resources to do that on the scale we would need.
@@drosophilamelanogaster3957 Don’t worry we’ll just have a ton of climate refugees and local governments won’t do anything. Until one country eventually conceded and gives their sovereignty to the UN effectively making them have control over the movement of people. This will then ripple effect and every country will give up sovereignty in order to solve the problem and we will have a global state to battle climate change and probably to colonize the solar system, too.
@@chrisward5626 Gasoline is. Diesel is not. The flammability of battery packs is a real concern. Remember when Galaxy notes were recalled because they could blow up in your pocket?
@@cdunn2669 the phones didn’t “blow up “ at all . Yes they burn but don’t explode . It’s not gasoline. You seem to ignor all the cars on the roads with their gasoline plus the tankers carrying the stuff .
@@chrisward5626 lol.... The guy that invented the pneumatic car got shut down bc they said "if theres a wreck, the air tank would act like a missile ".....he said a gas tank is not a teddy bear. He had windmills manually turning air compressors to fill air tanks for practically nothing.
glad you aren't in charge of anything...whatever minor peril that is doesn't compare to impaired drivers, lack of efficiency and labor costs...dude the trucks will move autonomously...running 24/7 with little fuel and no labor or liability it's the one thing we can all look forward to...lower prices on anything...you aren't in business are you? So you wouldn't get it.
a cost that you missed is fuel taxes. We already have government running around trying to figure out how to get their pound of flesh from current EV owners, the EV Trucks will also incur this cost and probably more.
@@TobyCostaRica That seems like a drop in the bucket compared to the amount I am charged on a gallon on gas. I will switch to EV but I could not rap my head around owning the Apple of cars. Not a hater but I think you should be able to repair your own vehicle or at least have options. I more than have the skills for this but Tesla says no. As more EVs hit the market this may change.
@@TobyCostaRica i wouldnt expect that to stay that way once the government realizes how much theyre missing. I think its the lack of standardization that has shielded owners from beign charged ast the point of charge to this point. It woudl be trivial to make even home chargers payment collection centers above and beyond the cost of the electricity. i'd still expect the extra registration fees though. Especially in CA.
@@willstikken5619 I’m sure in a few years, now they’re giving checks out to go electric. My last vehicle was Fuel cell and CA gave me $5000 and carpool for the lease. Toyota provided 15k for fuel since to go 250 miles cost about $80 in H2
Y'know, with how much energy is lost by brakes in big, heavy trucks, hybrids seem like a good place to start. Currently, most of the braking is done by 'Engine Braking', letting the engine resist the transmission with no fuel. Letting generators capture high-torque electricity to be re-used for acceleration (the hardest part for a big truck) just seems like a good idea.
The problem I see barreling directly at us is WHERE IS THE ADDITIONAL ELECTRICITY GOING TO COME FROM? Power production capacity is already overloaded in any place that has restricted or shut down Nat Gas, Oil, and Coal plants.., not to mention Homer's "Nu-cu-lar" plants... (IE: California? -- Texas' grid failure? -- Hurricanes?) More EVs = more demand. The supply is already strained!
Me too. I'd like to see a battery powered semi oull 20 or 30 ton up them mountains in winter lol How stupid do they think we are. And that peckerhead talking don't realize a diesel engine provided his last meal
@@357bullfrog9 Batteries can be heated and well insulated to do that job. Once they are under load, the will heat themselves with the discharge. I guess this challenge would only be one if you start at the bottom of the hill having parked the truck over night there in a cold winter night. But this wouldn't be good on a diesel either :-) I driven over Wolf Creek Pass on a Push bike in my youth. I know quite right what you are talking about ;-)
An important consideration in electric vehicles is the extreme weight. To fulfil such a high range, even with the new type of batteries being made with 2x range, the truck has a weight limit. To drive on a road, the truck and trailer must not exceed a certain weight. This means that the truck's hauling capacity will be reduced significantly to only a few tonnes- might as well buy an electric box-van to do the work. What might work well is having reduced battery range and having a trolleybus-like system which the trucks use on motorways, accompanied by a battery pack used when off the motorways. This means less weight.
It's proven fact that an electric voltage is generated by a conductor (wiring or metallic rods) passing through a magnetic field (earth's gravity) will generate an electrical voltage. This concept is explained by Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction. Just add an array of wiring or rods on top of your truck and trailers and VOLLA! Perpetual motion.
@@bygrace3455 perpetual motion will never work. Every system has losses, therefore you can't make perpetual motion. Using the earth's magnetic field as a power source? Well, the magnetic field is far too weak for that!
@@ryanvigus9634 I remember getting those figures from an Adam Something video I watched (before he was widely known to be an asshole) so these figures aren't from nowhere. I can no longer remember the specifics, but I clearly remember that the amount of cargo space lost would be more than a truck company is willing to lose. I believe fuel cells are lighter for the same weight, maybe they will be the thing the trucking world needs? Or, y'know, move all long distance transport onto electrified railways, and save trucks for last-mile...
@@ryanvigus9634 I'd like to see your maths, though. Batteries aren't exactly light- even Li-ions or Li-Fe-Po batteries still weigh a fair amount. For such ridiculously long ranges, in such a heavy vehicle, they're gonna be big.
You should have your own channel on Discovery my friend, your videos have such high quality and the content is on point and well made. Can't get enough of your videos
Good video! It seems that a big miss is no mention of Hyliion. What I love about their solution is that their powertrain charges while operating and is flexible but initially uses natural gas which is available already (although not widely enough). Their solution seems to be the best for early adopters.
It's proven fact that an electric voltage is generated by a conductor (wiring or metallic rods) passing through a magnetic field (earth's gravity) will generate an electrical voltage. This concept is explained by Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction. Just add an array of wiring or rods on top of your truck and trailers and VOLLA! Perpetual motion.
I don't believe there ever will be a "flood" of EV trucks. I can see them being adopted in small numbers by large specialized carriers like WalMart but I cannot imagine a large volume of EVs until there is an enormous overhaul of the type of support that surrounds the trucking industry
Walmart, Amazon, etc. will drive this market. Any company that controls both docks will put in chargers for the trucks while loading and unloading. It will be likely to cut their shipping costs significantly.
The trailer they’re hauling will also often have a large unused flat surface area on top. The trailer could be fitted with solar panels to generate additional power while sitting or driving.
I don't think that's enough surface area to generate an appreciable amount of power given the power the drive train uses. May be able to run things like the accessories off a solar array.
if it takes 2KWH as shown in the video to drive a mile , we are taking about 120 KW of energy (driving at 60MPH) consumption . Imagine how much space a 120 KW solar panel will take.
Operating cost goes out the window when you realize you need 3 electric semis to carry the same load of 1 diesel semi (when accounting for weight of battery). You need to be multiplying the operating cost by roughly 3 for the math to make sense.
It's proven fact that an electric voltage is generated by a conductor (wiring or metallic rods) passing through a magnetic field (earth's gravity) will generate an electrical voltage. This concept is explained by Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction. Just add an array of wiring or rods on top of your truck and trailers and VOLLA! Perpetual motion.
As I've said before, imo they can be useful to supplement the industry but not phase out or replace diesel entirely. Some distribution centers can put charging stations in their facilities for running local deliveries, trailer jockeying/ yard dogs, etc, but not full otr through mountains and in serious terrain. There are too many variables, such as being stuck in snowstorms and not being able to charge. Then, the deceased drivers' families will sue everyone involved, including the janitor. The added weight of the batteries would automatically lessen the freight per truck, which would most like only add to the problem.
Why do EV enthusiasts insist on breezing past the major impediments to going all green: The fact that minerals necessary for battery production require massive amounts of fossil fuels to mine and transport them and that surface mining of certain minerals destroy forested lands?
@@004Black Given the share price increases in rare earth minerals, I would suggest that some people are all-too-keenly aware of the realities of the sector...
You also need to factor in the payload loss because of the extra weight of the batteries. For long range trucking, we're probably looking at close to 1000 KWH weighing over 10,000 lbs. Even then, it will still have a shorter range than Diesel.
A 180 KW battery is about 2,000 pounds. They don't need more than 400 KW in the tractor, but ultimately they will probably have 200 - 250 KW in the tractor, with another 200 - 250 KW in the trailer with it's own motor on one of the trailer axles. The current 15 liter engines and a 13 speed transmission is about 2,800 pounds, while a 300 gallon fuel tank is 2,000 pounds.
Very interesting presentation ... I'd love to see your cost/mile figures converted to cost per Cargo-Ton Mile, I think the outcome will show electric as far less favorable than is currently being presented: the energy density on electric is lower, meaning more mass of batteries is needed, highway regulations stipulate the maximum gross weight of the truck with it's cargo, therefore the electric truck will not be able to haul so much cargo because of the mass of batteries it's hauling (which for long range I think is going to be pretty significant). This will increase ir's cost per cargo-ton mile (which I suspect is the figure the haulage company is probably interested in; not cost of driving the truck from A-B, but cost of getting {x} tons of cargo from A-B, and I again suspect haulage companies double-up on deliveries to try to keep that truck near it's maximum weight whenever possible, to maximise cost per cargo-ton mile)
Although it's important that you consult an experienced transportation provider before moving overweight freight, you can expect to be allowed 22,000 pounds per axle (44,000 total) for these loads in the majority of states.
I love how all the assumptions on this video are ‘based on what Elon said’ and totally ignoring the weight of all those batteries reducing the potential cargo weight…, believing the King of Snake Oil sales 😂
@@ironclad445 It's proven fact that an electric voltage is generated by a conductor (wiring or metallic rods) passing through a magnetic field (earth's gravity) will generate an electrical voltage. This concept is explained by Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction. Just add an array of wiring or rods on top of your truck and trailers and VOLLA! Perpetual motion.
@@mavrickdraft It's proven fact that an electric voltage is generated by a conductor (wiring or metallic rods) passing through a magnetic field (earth's gravity) will generate an electrical voltage. This concept is explained by Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction. Just add an array of wiring or rods on top of your truck and trailers and VOLLA! Perpetual motion.
Electric trucks are so good out in the American Southwest, you never see them. Thats cause they dont last out here. The heat will eat that battery up in no time.
Another great video I appreciate the reference to the Engineering Explained towing video. BTW, at 12:35, in the speed up truck stop clip, there is a guy leaking in the bushes.
@@UndecidedMF lol, my eyes just happened to follow the movement in that portion of the frame, had to rewind to confirm. Keep up the great work on the videos!
@@UndecidedMF Sometimes he's as dumb as a bunch of rocks. In a video about electric trucks he thought that mountainous regions wouldn't be a good fit.... That's where they will shine the brightest. Zooming up steep hills at the speed limit instead of crawling, and recovering a good chunk of their range on the downhills, not burning through their brakes.
@@samuelprice538 You really come across as someone who didn't try to listen, didn't try to learn, and just heard something that sounds wrong to you and decided "he's as dumb as a bunch of rocks" without doing any further research. If you bothered to watch the towing video in question, you'd already know exactly why "Zooming up steep hills at the speed limit" isn't going to work out well for electric trucks towing a lot of cargo.
I remember an article that I read many years ago where an electric car company was flirting with the idea of removable battery pack. You would pull up to a station where the used battery pack would be slid out and charged. A freshly charged battery pack would then be slid in and connected to the engine. The total time for the change was only a few minutes. I wonder if something like this could be done efficiently for trucks.
@@brendanmccann5695 cars? If they could make the batteries smaller and more powerful, that’d be great but they way it stands now America and or any counties infrastructure will not and cannot handle that constant bombardment to its infrastructure. We’re already complaining about the slightest pot holes in the road now- imagine if we had to immediately switch to those batteries and what it what do to shipping and receiving as well as the consumer.
The end of the video is exactly the reason why hyliion trucks, utilizing CNG and RNG (net carbon negative), are by far the best solution for the class 8 trucking market. TCO, range (1000 miles), as well as the fact that the infrastructure is already in place for natural gas makes it to be the best solution by far. Hyliion will be a major player in the space mark my words.
I think you'll see more electric trucks in Europe to start with. Stricter time limits on how long a driver and drive for, combined with generally shorter hauls make the market more conducive to at least this early generation of BEV trucks. I wouldn't count hydrogen out at all, as Matt mentioned the infrastructure isn't there for either yet. It's a matter of who can build out their respective system the quickest and be the most price competitive.
On the contrary, it seems to me that hydrogen is the correct option for cargo transport (trucks and trains) and public transport; while batteries for the particular segment. In addition, the infrastructure for hydrogen is similar to that used for CNG. EDIT: and don't forget that batteries are not recycled yet (cost / benefit)
I agree that shorter hauls make electric trucks much more viable. I would think that even in the US a large percentage of the routes for a truck are depot-to-depot or point-to-point deliveries that are much less than 500 miles per day in total. These are also probably the routes that cause the most pollution with lots of low-speed start and stop type driving. As to infrastructure, there is already a huge distribution network for electricity with "only" the last mile stuff missing; the charging stations. Hydrogen on the other hand has no distribution network and would, perhaps, be prohibitively expensive to establish in the relative short term. I am a big fan of hydrogen but I believe that it is probably a next-gen fuel source. whereas electricity is ubiquitous and easily distributed today.
@@afewdeer6627 I have *zero* experience with this. But is it really a last-mile problem for the heavy-duty charging requirements that trucks will require? I'm thinking that it might require more of build out than the typical automobile based charging station would require. That's just very much a guess, however.
@@fmvm I disagree on public transport, China already has proven that electric busses are more than possible, one city the size of small countries in population switched to fully electric busses in just a few years (forgot which city it was). My local (well provincial) public bus operator bought some hydrogen busses 2 years ago and shelved them after a few months due to too expensive. In Europe most trainlines are electrified, so no need for hydrogen there. As for trucks like the original commentator said, EV trucks would fit perfectly into the time limits imposed on the trucking industry (After 3-4 hours mandatory 20-30 minute stop to rest, no longer than +-10 hour driving untill taking a much longer rest, meaning around a max daily distance of 525 miles with stops during which some charging can be done). Hydrogen trucks might stil be used, but more likely as a niche sector. Hydrogen really could play a part in air and sea travel when it comes down to transportation, for other things it is much more limited. And no, the infrastructure for hydrogen isn't similar for CNG, or better it isn't usefull. Sure it is similar in that both are a gas, but that is mostly where it ends. Most of CNG infrastructure isn't really fit for hydrogen and there aren't many cng cars/trucks to start with, so there isn't much infrastructure anyway. As for recycling, EV companies are already looking into recycling as a cost saving measure since they don't need to constantly mine and refine their needed resources, something that is rather costly due to the low % of these resources in the overall mined material, however batteries already have a rich presence of these resources.
@@fmvm the UK freight industry is annoyed at government saying hydrogen could replace overhead line expansion for rail, they say having the extra equipment for the tanks and fuel cells would be a few extra carriages’ worth. They want overhead electrification precisely because it’s got the least space, weight, and has the highest power output rating.
Electric batteries only loose range & I’d say a 500miles range is probably more like 200-250miles if you’re towing a ton of weight. You can burn the motor out faster cuz there’s no cooling system that’s touching the cemetery of the motor at all, & w diesels they have so much torque in em they can be hauling a lot & also be getting 15-17mpg or at least the old ones are. For example my old 95 f250 w the 7.3 Powerstroke was hauling 5000lbs on a an all day trip. It got 16mpg, it might’ve gone slower, but it still used the same amount of fuel towing all that weight/ 10-11k lbs including the weight of the truck, trailer & vehicle. EVs are not the future it’s just we have politicians that are forcing it & create the same amount of pollution that the diesels do.
@John Brennan What I want to know is...WHO'S paying for a truckstop to install a couple of HUNDRED "mega chargers" and the infrastructure needed to support (electrically/grid-wise) the MASSIVE electrical draw on the grid that said truckstop will now create? What if I have to stop at a rest area because I run out of logbook hours? How do I charge my truck there? Most States don't even want truckers PARKING in rest areas, so how will we convince them to put in chargers too?
@@swaghauler8334 your concerns are mostly not real. clearly our current rules wont apply to a different future, why would you think they would. your no different that the guy saying, "i cant tie my new car to the horse post in front of the bar, it says horses only". we will of course manage just fine. when gas engines first came out, you couldnt exactly go to a gas station, they didnt exist, you had to order gas through the mail, in 1 liter glass jars. clearly thats unsustainable, and anyone trying would think its hopeless and wont go anywhere. it clearly did. relax. it will be fine.
@@kdungan100 At what cost of a new battery pack for the truck?? So they are recycled but then you have to buy another $50k (or way more) battery? C'mon man! Joe Biden lingo there.
@@kdungan100 Then why are only 5% of used EV's currently recycled ? its sad to say but it is still far...far cheaper to mine and refine these units than recycle...if that were not the case we'd not be land filling them at the rate like we currently are.. that may all change....but right now were just landfilling a problem for another generation to deal with..
Get educated, jezus. Answer to your first question: Renewable energy, probably solar. Next, I simply 'googled 'recycle tesla batteries' and this popped up along with a bunch of ADs trying to turn me into a recycler. The mere FACT that someone is running ads for recycling batteries tells me there is a 'market' for recycling these batteries and it's apparently very robust. Good O'' American ingenuity! medium.com/tradr/teslas-approach-to-recycling-is-the-way-of-the-future-for-sustainable-production-5af99b62aa0e Apparently Tesla built their batteries with recycling in mind. Smart. You unchangeable old folks can stop poo-pooing the future now. You're starting to look like a bunch of geezers demanding more whale-oil.
I'm glad you talked about hydrogen. I don't think semi cares about infra because a large business like pepsico can install a hydrogen station in their facility, unlike homes.
Hydrogen ain't goin' anywhere. That's a petrochemical pipedream the gas and oil companies need to stay in business - they gotta sell something they extracted to make a buck. Hydrogen is dangerous and would need an entire coast-to-coast distribution network. Think Hindenburg. Kablooey goes hydrogen! Just like Nikola.
@@beaumob do you have any knowledge on gas tank safety? Petroleum gas and such are also stored quite safely in gas tanks, and hydrogen, quickly rising up into the air would actually be safer than that. We aren’t transporting hydrogen in big balloons that just explode at random. Also, hydrogen generators with over 80% efficiency can be built on location with just electricity and water. That will be a quite attractive solution in the futre
It's crazy to know that in the US drivers are allowed to do 11h a day. In Germany for safety reasons we have a maximum driving time of 9h (exceptions for 10h are possible from time to time) And after 4.5 h you have to do a 45min break. Electric trucks are a perfect fit for German regulations. Makes you wonder why they don't release them here first. 😕
It's already happened. For example, MAN put the eTGM (200 km range for urban use) on the road in 2019. The video focusses a lot on Tesla and on the US perspective, but Volkswagen is building them already.
Here in the US, we must do a 30 minute break after 8 hours of driving, and as he mentioned we get a total of 11 hours to drive. We can be on duty or driving for a total of 14 hours in a day, then we’re required to take a 10 hour break.
I have an idea for electric semis. Put the batteries in the tractor but put another battery in the trailer. The trailer battery can give you more range, but the real benefit is when you drop your trailer and pick up another one. You wouldn’t have to wait to charge it because it would be hot when you pick it up. They can charge the trailer when they’re loading/unloading it at the dock or when it’s in the yard.
It's proven fact that an electric voltage is generated by a conductor (wiring or metallic rods) passing through a magnetic field (earth's gravity) will generate an electrical voltage. This concept is explained by Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction. Just add an array of wiring or rods on top of your truck and trailers and VOLLA! Perpetual motion.
@@bygrace3455 there ya go! Or we could build all of our roads in electro magnetic fields and we could drive through them! I’ll bet that we wouldn’t have to rely on power plants anymore. Just get enough people driving through electro magnetic fields and we solve the whole problem!
The electric truck is a nice “pipe dream”right now, that may do well moving freight the furniture, but for now diesel is the magic to get things done. electric trucks will have to over come and out perform the diesel trucks we have now that get the job done. Until then they will be nothing more than a fantasy
I never understood why electric trucks (or cars for that instance) necessarily have to outperform their internal combustion counterparts. If they do 5 - 10% worse, then who cares? It's not like in the 90's people have said, "Oh no, we can't use those trucks, because they're not as efficient as they will be 30 years from now!" We are allowed to factor in the added bonus of heavily reduced carbon emissions, so why do they have to have a head start in efficiency? If usage starts as soon as possible and becomes significantly widespread, in 10 years from now they will be significantly more efficient and at some point surpass the combustion vehicles.
@@lonestarr1490 Ask someone that is running a business using commercial vehicles like say a trucking company that runs trucks coast to coast trying to run a profitable business. I’m sure they could explain why the next few trucks they buy have to do better than what they have now. It’s called making money, plain an simple
Back in the 50's they thought "Why retire and scrap a 10 year old coal locomotive?" Yet they did it because the cost for maintenance was so much more expensive than diesel trains. They will find electric trucks much less expensive, and will scrap the diesel ones very soon. One key will be a electric motor and 400 KW battery in the trailer, that can sit for 6 hours between trips at a distribution center charging itself.
Diesel prices almost doubled since you posted this 6 months ago. Electricity costs are going to zero with renewable growth. Diesel cannot compete no matter how you slice it.
Well that will sacrifice volume of the trailer, and the more weight you put in, the less weight you can carry. You notice a lot of trucks have aluminum wheels? It's not just for looks. Aluminum wheel is up to 30 lbs lighter. 30×18=540lbs. That's 540lbs more payload capacity as you are limited to a maximum gross weight, and axles have a weight limit for each axle so weight distribution is important as well. You could be within your maximum gross weight, and still overweight on some of your axles and subject to $1000s fines
@@BigMateo24 why you getting offended? Shit ain’t personal. Not all trucking is the same. Not every load or every trailer is weight capped. Loads of LTL, volume capped, etc. Keep an open mind. Or keep being close minded and stay out of business decision making 😉
I want to throw a wrinkle into this somewhat. Back in the 80s diesel engines got double or even 3 times as much mileage on a gallon of fuel and the same could be said of gas engines before Catalytic Converters, gas engines in the 50s and 60s would get around 40 to 50 miles per gallon. At one point I had an 84 GMC Suburban which would get 32 miles per gallon highway and 26 city. Theirs a theory on weight, but the Suburban being made of heavy grade steel body and frame versus the new lightweight steel frame and plastic body. They also said the weight comes from the power windows and locks and other things where they hook up wires. Suburban had the power windows, locks, steering all that stuff. The suburban had one other thing that most other vehicles did not have at the time. On the back was a tailgate like on a pickup, but with a slight difference, it had a power window that would go completely inside the tailgate. This made the tailgate heavy (about 50 lbs) and held up by two thick wire cables. This could have been done years ago, If we went back to this sort of energy efficiency it blows the batteries out of the water hands down. You would get double what the battery gets and save on emissions actually, using less fuel to get to the same distance. Do you ever factor in the emission cost to make these batteries? The production puts out more emissions than the gas and diesel cars produce and if we can up the mileage per gallon on a gas and diesel vehicle like we used to have it would lower emission levels. You want to know why its never been done? It comes down to the bottom line. If you have to fill that tank more often then you make them wealthier. A lot of things that worked well they had to find a way to lower the efficiency or ban it all together. If it doesn't put money into their pocket then its no good to them. There is still another major problem with electric aside from the fact that it just does not have the power for heavy lifting. No one is thinking of the big stuff, you are showcasing a standard tractor trailer that really isn't pulling that much weight. Throw 12,000 lbs or more on a battery truck and see how far it gets. 12,000 lbs is the low end. Other major problem with electric, the plugs aren't all the same there are two many different companies that you have to have an account with and each one has a different rate, there's no regulation on it. What happens when we have another Texas winter? Do you know that in certain temperatures batteries have a hard time producing energy? That is why in winter sometimes its hard to get your car started, but at least the battery in a gas car is only used as a capacitor, once the car is started you don't have to worry about the battery. Parts are more expensive and the resale value is always going to be horrible. Not to mention car collisions in these things would leak some really nasty hazardous material if those cells crack. No matter what battery you are using it has acid or a chemical just as dangerous inside of it. Self driving cars aren't any safer, before you go off on that. Too many collisions and lost signals in areas that has caused collisions or property damage. No one thinks how this impacts people is rural areas, or the fact that people just can't afford them in general. After a while batteries can no longer hold a charge. How much would it be to replace the battery pack? could you get a replacement battery pack or would you have to buy a whole new vehicle? What happens if your battery dies? Not like you can jump it and off you go. Another point is if you run out of power on a long trip, not like you can go to the nearest gas station and fill up a can with electricity and take it back to fill up your car. It actually happens a lot. Logistics that people just don't think about. Not to mention the long charging times. The main point is that at some point our companies and governments have made it so you have to consume more gas and diesel to fill their pockets. If we fixed that problem it would fix other issues. Not to mention at some point because this isn't netting these same people the profits they are going to push for some legislation that decreases the efficiency of these vehicles and tax the power companies more to drive up the price of electricity all around. That is what happened when diesel started to take off. It was half the price or lower than gas, but then legislation got passed and jacked up diesel prices. Not everything has been thought through, to be honest, but if you have answers for these things feel free to reply. Positive feed back only, don't need anyone cussing me out because I have concerns and questions that no one has answered or really brought up, it goes back further than the electric car debate. In closing there are a few other questions to be asked and talked about, but lets start with what we have now.
@@carholic-sz3qv Efficiency is not increased by trains. Trains are rigid, inflexible and ultimately only profitable for heavy loads, but not for fast, flexible and direct transport. In addition, trains are extremely loud, louder than commercial vehicles with combustion engines, so that noise barriers and even noise protection tunnels have to be built again and again to protect the residents from the noise of the trains.
@@carholic-sz3qv Let's face it. Separate lanes have to be built for trams and trolly buses. Moreover, trams and trolly buses are extremely vulnerable to unscheduled diversions. Trams and trollies are also not flexible, but can only follow a specific route. Trams and trolly buses lack flexibility - and ultimately, trams in particular are very noisy - even compared to buses with combustion engines.
Wholeheartedly agree -- what is base power for the charger systems if the solar don't shine & wind doesn't blow ? if the renewable storage capacities aren't adequate? anyone read about the Glasgow power issues bringing back coal plants on line since the wind didn't blow? - every time the EVs are promoted all conveniently omitted,
@@calebweldon8102 Thx for followup - but not ok if the activists momentum is to ELIMINATE fossil fuels. Where does your reply then sit? With all the modelling in the Covid area how is it that the climate change promoters have not supplied modelling on availability & costs for2030,2035,2050 energy /electricity supply when fossil fuels are ELIMINATED? MOST curious question is why haven't we asked for them?
Yes we get ripped off in the UK. We pay well over TWICE the petrol costs, and even though £1 = $1.49 we pay the same in pounds that they pay in dollars in the USA! So a $1,000 piece of tech should only cost £718 - so why do we get charged £1,000!?!?!?! Don't get me wrong, I am all for switching to a 100% renewable energy sources, and scrapping all fossil fuels, but when are we going to say "Hey, stop ripping us off with tech prices in the UK!"
@@pollywoodglobal2965 I find it funny because imperial (inches) has no real way of measuring especially small things, like nanometres and micrometres (or the liquid equivalents of nanolitres or microliters), and they are terrible for even things as big as millimetres (or millilitres), so places which "don't do metric" don't seem to even notice when they use these measurements in technology or in any area where high accuracy is vital. I must admit, when it comes to long distances I tend to think in miles, but that's because I was bought up being taught both imperial and metric, and whilst metric makes more sense and is far more accurate, in the UK all speed limits are in miles per hour, and distances given default to miles. But there is ZERO excuse for Fahrenheit to still exist - come on people, its an outdated system that was GUESSED on blood temperatures, which even by its own standards is wrong! Centigrade is based on water which plays a massive part of things like our weather (0 degrees C = freezing [turns solid], 100 degrees C = boiling [turns into gas]), so make the effort to start thinking in Centigrade, and stop teaching children inaccurate systems. :)
@@TimLongson paying extra for fossil fuels is the best way to modify behaviour . People care more about their bank balance than protecting the environment. The Americans would all be driving more efficient cars if they cost more to fuel . Tax the stuff you want to discourage , tax breaks for electric and renewables .
Where I think this tech could really be a winner: Buses. School buses don't need massive range, or even highway speeds, but as it stands now run the same big diesel engines the big trucks run I could easily see the next generation of school buses, and perhaps even public transit buses going electric with the tech being developed for these trucks.
Diesel semi trucks use engine breaking instead of breaks, when going down a hill and some trucks even have a retarder installed... They're not burning any diesel when going down a hill, but unlike BEVs, they aren't getting anything back from it either.
@@Daddo22 Yes I understand the brake retarder/engine braking features because I used to drive heavy trucks for a living. You're not allowed to use those within city limits due to the noise of the revving engine and most of the braking occurs while city driving. Another big plus will be no more shifting.
@@glennjones1054 thanks, I didn't know that from my limited experience just playing EuroTruck Sim... Now I see that the regen braking is even bigger deal for semis than I realized
Would you break that much when traveling long distances? One of the problems with the electric cars is that they get better mileage in town because there's lots more breaking and less mileage on the road because you don't use the regenerative braking very much. And also what about the weight capacity. I thought this video would talk more about the mileage and weight factors.
I had to baby my rig when it was -72 with wind chill up in Canada. I’m curious what the range of a battery truck would be in Canada in the deep cold. 13+2 hours in Canada.
well with those temperatures diesel wouldnt be too bad you would need a lot of heat for the cabin anyways so the internal combustion engine would make a lot of sense there i would say thermodynamicly the diesel engines efficiency improves when using the excess heat
4:48 Why does Volvo even attempt building a 82,000 lbs electric truck when the maximum US vehicle weight allowed (including cargo) is 80,000 lbs? I mean, even if they trim it down, what meager cargo can it even carry to meet the total 80,000 lbs requirement?
if you want to make electric semis the future of transportation, you must first make electric railroads. if the rail road can be operated with out a battery it can transport the bulk of the produce to distribution centers in major municipalities. Transportation to suburbs or rural areas would be done with the battery powered semi. lower energy consumption in the battery powered semi would be less worrisome and cost effective to not preform. The persisting problem would be the rate of charge, but as time goes on that will easily be improved and would burden the consumer less in the end.
@@johnhorner5711 Perhaps, but not every little town or even modest sized city has a rail spur. Still going to need trucks to haul away cattle , produce, etc.
description: "towing a lot of weight takes a major hit on efficiency" - no, efficiency of electric drivetrains is still about the same under load (usually the efficiency of electric motors is between 85-95% over a wide range of operating points; i.e. it barely changes with varying load). It's the other way around: ICE cars and semis can run closer to their most efficient operating point when under load (the efficiency of a combustion engine has far more variance, from
Introducing the third option (hydrogen) after comparing the costs of diesel and BEV makes it difficult to compare all three. The price of hydrogen is significant.
You need about 3-4x the kwh to produce the equivalent in hydrogen power if you use green hydro. So, whatever the cost of energy is to charge a battery truck times 3x is sort of the lower end of that spectrum. At the prices cited, that would be more expensive than diesel. Of course you would not use grid electricity for either. So it may not matter as much in the end considering electricity may end up costing a fraction of that. At that point other cost dominate the operational cost.
Always a funny moment when watching "some dude in America's video" about electric trucks ~ and then all of a sudden, there's images of a local shopping street in a Swedish city you've been to multiple times... just that moment of thinking "Wait, what? Why is he showing clips from Malmö... oooh, right... Scania trucks! Skåne!" 😁
11:40 Umicore and Anglo American are working on a organic hydrogen carrier liquid. This would mitigate the need to invest heavily into a new hydrogen infrastructure, because we could use the existing petrol station infrastructures. And you don't have the usual hydrogen storage problems. (I'm sorry if I made typos. English isn't my native language)
after reading a few vague google results it sounds like they're bonding hydrogen to an "organic liquid" so some other organic molecule ( one containing H, C, N, or O) then de-hydrogenating it with a process similar to the one shown at: 10:54 and using said hydrogen to power a hydrogen fuel cell to produce electricity. I wonder what the 'organic liquid' is, and what it's going to have as a reaction byproduct. Hydrocarbon and CO2? Hydrogen Peroxide and H2O?
@@cortburris9526 The organic carrier won't really participate in any reaction because it only carries the H+ to the catalytic dehydrogenation. When dehydrogenated the carriers is conjugated (it has unsaturated bonds). This gives "space" for H+ to bind with the carrier once they hydrogenate it again. So in theorie if you catch the carrier after dehydrogenation at fuel station for example, the industry can regenerate it with H+ and bring it back to the fuel station. (I'm sorry if some terms are weirdly translated 😅, I don't know all the terms in english) Post edit: shortened the text 😅
That would solve the hydrogen storage problem, but it would make an already expensive fuel even more expensive, and it would add a lot of weight. So, it creates more problems than it solves, rather like hydrogen.
@@chrismuir8403 well it wouldn't necessarily make it more expensive, but that depends strongly on the used technology and the economic policy (I don't know if that's the correct english term 😅) of the country where it would be used. Yes yes. The weight of the fuel would be higher, but you can use existing pipelines instead of specialised cooled high pressure vessels. Once at the fuel station it can be converted to the classic Hydrogen fuel. It's true that hydrogen still has drawbacks. But every advance like this makes it more and more viable as a sustainable alternative fuel for heavyweight transport and other uses. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think leaving hydrogen, or other alternative fuels/energies, behind would be a good thing to do. Or maybe I'm too optimistic ? 😅 (I'm sorry my texts are so long 😱)
L - You don't need to apologize for bad spelling, grammar or being long winded. We English speakers are used to people from many countries trying to speak, and write, so we are used to it, it's no big deal! Yes, there will be rude people that will point out your mistakes, but you don't have to read their remarks, and if we think you write too many words, we don't have to read them either.
You have to check e-hiways videos... they exist in Germany and Sweden...they are cheap to implement and efficient charging while driving...the electric trucks have pantographs in their roofs to full charge while running under electric lines cantenary with 800 volts similar to trains... that's the future! 500kw battery with pantographs... always fully charged to run on suburban roads
@@Gengh13 hiways are always ugly anyway... with all that new electric structures, they can improve road lightening and include green solar and wind energy conduit cross country all over European continent between major cities...
I was going to write a comment similar and I agree, I think overhead power supply on key highways and freeways is the way to go, not just for trucks, but for cars and busses as well. Due to the height difference in cars and trucks it may be better to put the power on the ground like a 3rd rail but then you will have issues of idiots (or children) electrocuting themselves so, I don't know.
he sure sounds smart---but he's presenting a false case. He breaks down diesel costs, but never tells you about the slave labor-fueled alkaline mines in Chile where toxic battery components come from. Nor does he explain how such toxic chemicals will be disposed of at end of life. Also--is alkaline any less finite than oil? There are far less chemicals available in the earth to make batteries than there is oil. Slave labor, mimited resources and toxic battery disposal? THIS is clean energy?
My concern is the disposal of batteries, Nevada has become an electric battery dump site/state. Currently one company is recycling the batteries but they can't keep up and they are not making a profit
I was talking to a friend who designed what is essentially a black hole that condenses electricity from our environment. This would provide constant energy without the need for wind, sunshine, or any other source of backup energy. He and his partners built a facility and are now manufacturing enough units to power 200 semi trucks for the Dept of Defense. Once you own one of them, you will have free electricity forever, or as long as the unit remains in working condition. It was a fascinating conversation and wish I could have retained more detail information about it. This is what Tesla was doing but on another level.
You forgot to factor in the fact that - at least in the EU - drivers are required by law to stop for at least 45 minutes after driving a maximum of 4.5h continuously. Time which can be used to charge.
Europe is also betting more on Hydrogen for heavy lifting like trains and trucks, and even Steel production, which is a bit more lucrative as it is significantly less dependent on resources from outside of Europe for production
@@RuffStuff420 You exposed yourself as an imbecile when you said trumptards. Us normal moderate people don’t talk like that and we sure as hell don’t associate with insane people that do. Grow up
Hello, I tough that one of the biggest issues with electric towing vehicles is that your battery is stealing payload capacity and you didn't mention it at all what gives in the total cost of operations you are taking in account that you will need more trucks to deliver the same weight?
All hybrids do is add complexity to an already expensive and high maintenance drive line. The other big problem is it adds weight and reduces payloads which won't go down well with the operators loading the axles to the maximum allowed.
1/3 added to the present 500 GW capacity in the U.S. Also 1/3 more grid capacity. That assumes an equal distribution over time for charging.(not everyone charge overnight)
@@aleksandersuur9475 We had 1 hr rolling blackouts in February in the midwest 15 miles from an east-west interconnect. The blackouts went across the state.. It was due to reaching grid capacity, not generation limit. If the grid is overloaded, the lines can sag and cause fires. Not everywhere at all times has the margins you would think.
@@aleksandersuur9475 Also given the lack of extreme conditions (such as an extended large area cold snap). All grids were correctly engineered for the era they were designed for with huge margins for growth. I'm just saying we have had that growth both in population and electrical consumption since the time much of the grid was built. There are probably now locations additional construction will be necessary. This includes both the high voltage transmission, and low voltage distribution infrastructure. 1/3 could easily become 1/2 because everyone will drive to work and then drive home in their electric car, and only then plug in to charge overnight. 1/3 is just an average increase in load, not a peak -without smart charging.. The question becomes is a once in 10 year event considered proper for something to be correctly engineered? Many people in Texas would say no.
Battery storage is the bottleneck right now lithium ion and cobalt batteries are peak technology right now and inefficient at storing and releasing energy in a timely manner, long recharge times and a finite amount of resources to make them, Musk needs to stop screwing around with cars and rockets and get on perfecting graphene batteries
@@russianprussian4683 I reckon we are 4-5 from the resolving the fundamental challenges to advanced material batteries (graphene, solid state, nuclear diamond) and mass production of batteries with energy densities 5X lithium within a decade.
From what I found it is actually almost half the power of a new conventional onshore wind turbine and around 3 times lower than offshore wind turbines. Sure, their peak power is higher (2-3 times), however considering their average power is said to be 4 times lower than their peak power, this peak power is likely almost never used and mostly a sales pitch. Still very interesting though, I wonder what the necessary requirements are for placing them/what area's they can operate in.
@@MDP1702 , they are not using the same design here in the Bay Of Fundy (North America, Canada, between Nova Scotia & New Brunswick) but the change in tidal forces are destroying the test equipment.
I'm surprised you didn't mention an overhead catenary system for trucks. Lack of big batteries would not be an issue in such scenario. I think it's the best long term solution.
It's proven fact that an electric voltage is generated by a conductor (wiring or metallic rods) passing through a magnetic field (earth's gravity) will generate an electrical voltage. This concept is explained by Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction. Just add an array of wiring or rods on top of your truck and trailers and VOLLA! Perpetual motion.
I would like to see a version of this video but also done for cold weather climates, such as Canada. In Canada our max weight for legal trucks is 63,500kgs and we can drive for 13 hours. Cold weather massively affects battery efficiency. Would like to hear your thoughts.
It's proven fact that an electric voltage is generated by a conductor (wiring or metallic rods) passing through a magnetic field (earth's gravity) will generate an electrical voltage. This concept is explained by Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction. Just add an array of wiring or rods on top of your truck and trailers and VOLLA! Perpetual motion.
That’s called background radiation, it’s so low in power that it’s called background for a reason. And some truck drivers have issues hitting bridges and power lines at 13’6” high now, it would mean a lot more bridge hits to generate enough power for a watch to tick just one second.
One major oversight in this video and ones like it is the failure to consider downtime for repairs and the availability of pieces and certified technicians to work on these trucks. My semi will gross anywhere between 8000-12000 a week. If there is a bottle neck of techs/pieces to keep these trucks running, there is major revenue loss to consider. In the scenario presented you would stand to save ~20k a year. It would only take small hiccups in there supply chain to far outweigh the benefits of fuel savings. This technology is far from competing with the diesel standard in the industry. Diesel engine components are relatively cheap, plentiful and with a little bit of know-how, you can work on it yourself without the fear of receiving a fatal jolt of electricity...
Considering the charge times you meantioned it seems like they are easily losing 1/3 of their driving time (though some of these breaks can be used for stuff like eating). Even if this drops by half that is still not going to be viewed favourably
@@Ja_Mes batteries add weight so either you need to reduce ratio of cargo to engine and fuel or stop to charge during the day which does count towards that 12 hour limit. Thats one of the major differences between combustion and electric vehicles, gas weight is relatively insignificant but requires an engine capable of turning it into useful acceleration so their isnt much downside to whatever range you pick whereas electric can use a simpler engine because of the versatility of electricity but gains weight fast when you add range
@@Trikeree the limit is that people aren’t gathering it because there hasn’t been demand in the past. It’s not that we can’t get it. Also there has been a much stronger call made by Musk for nickel
Lithium isn't a long term problem, there is plenty of known lithium deposits that are just barely not profitable to extract. If the price of lithium were to increase by 10% the global supply would more than double; if the price were to increase by 50% the supply would increase tenfold. As the cost of lithium typically only makes up 2-5% of the cost of a lithium battery, even a 50% increase in cost would be negligible overall. While some of this untapped supply are from mines that have shut down due to low lithium prices, most are from undeveloped deposits which would take 2-3 years to get going. So if demand were to increase faster than the market anticipates there might be a temporary shortage, which is what Elon is afraid will happen (as he predicts a much faster growth in battery demand than most industry experts), but such a problem would be just that: temporary. Cobalt is a slightly larger problem. There are, however, plenty of cobalt-free lithium battery chemistries available. Unfortunately, currently all of them have one or more drawbacks over comparable cobalt-containing chemistries, such as lower specific energy (Wh/kg), lower volumetric energy density (Wh/l), and/or lower sustained charge or discharge rate (W/Wh). However, while these drawbacks do pose a major problem for use in electric vehicles, there is a large market segment of stationary battery storage which only uses cobalt-containing chemistries due to the economics of scale (i.e. the cost of manufacturing multiple chemistries exceeds the cost of using cobalt even when not necessary). If the cost of cobalt where to increase, this segment could easily switch battery chemistry, which would free up a significant portion of the global cobalt supply for other usages. Additionally there is a lot of ongoing research into cobalt-free battery chemistries, so with any luck this issue will be completely gone in a decade or so...
@@orangecookie3132 So you are suggesting it would be better to build 10,000s of miles of "near vacuum" tubes with all the inherent problems of achieving that, to building 10,000 miles of traditional rail lines which has none of the problems associated with "near vacuum" tubes. Economically, rail would win hands down compared to any type of Hyperloop plus it could be electrified with no need to carry the batteries with the units.
@@orangecookie3132 Never say never, the thing about the US and rail is that the potential it's there. It's simply a matter of how bad things need to get before the nation jolts awake and how long completion will take.
Which power plant? Tesla's charging network uses 100% renewables and presumably anyone purchasing a fleet of electric trucks will also equip their depots with solar panels. It'd be a no-brainer to do so.
@@Ehralur Yeah and solar panels take no resources to make.......................they grow out of the ground just like a tree. So there you have it. Go Elon.........
Actually when you take into power production, transportation of energy, and cost of keeping the electrical supply in good operating condition they are a huge loss. Large marine diesels are running commonly at 50% efficiency while the best electrical power plants are happy with a 35% efficiency. The funny part of it is the maritime emissions are measured on a different scale than a powerplant so that Dirty Marine Diesel is much cleaner than the best (Clean) electrical power plant.
It seems that the easiest entry route for electric trucks is in the local to medium run area. Long range semi’s have problems that make them a more complicated proposition. For example, local/medium trucks don’t have have to contend with driver fatigue, pressure to reach a distant destinations on time, hurry up and wait charging, and bad weather that may occur along the way. To use a baseball analogy, it looks like Elon Musk has gone for the home run rather than a series of singles and doubles. Babe Ruth had a record strikeouts in addition to record for home runs.
@@tuc-dh4df He was showing the fuel costs . He started with the US gallon to show the fuel cost in the US then showed how much that cost would be in GB, he did so by converting liters to gallons to show the price in US gallon. That is he was comparing like to like.
@@dmb25108Well said. Countries like China with no pollution regulations will have all of its citizenry running around like mad hatters playing with their mercury.
Electric and hydrogen will serve two different markets. I think hydrogen will be used for long range and heavy duty trucks needing a lot of power, probably in trains too which don't have overhead lines. Then electric will be used for more local stuff, like your supermarket or inside ports.
@@TKUA11 You do realize that all freight trains are already using electric motors, just using diesel generators, right? It's been that way for 70 or 80 years. Plus, his comment does not include the word "freight".
@@TKUA11 lots of them in the UK are electric powered. In fact the freight industry is upset at the UK government dragging their feet on running overhead power lines on the routes which are yet to get it, because it’s making them spend more money on diesel and keeping up maintenance on their diesel-electric locomotives when they want to switch to the simpler electric locomotives.
It’s not really hydrogen vs electric. It’s hydrogen vs batteries. Similar to the way most freight trains are diesel electric, they will be hydrogen electric.
you failed to mention the weight of the battery, that would most definitely cut back the cargo load, which means a higher price pre ton delivered compared to a diesel truck.
"Maximum allowable weight for trucks on U.S. Interstate highways is 80,000lbs, including tractor weight, chassis and container weight,and cargo weight." I agree its a very important factor and they don't say or had any specifications about it or mention it.
One thing I always see that's missing from these evaluations is the folks that service the vehicles. You can find thousands of gasoline/diesel engine mechanics, especially for passenger cars; there's a huge pre-existing base of knowledge and experience. On the flip side, the current knowledge base for electric trucks is pretty much zero, and good luck finding a mechanic that's not the ones from the companies selling you the truck - which might have to fly one in from a different state to look at the truck. Nobody talks about it, but it's going to become a big issue when you need your vehicle serviced because it's stopped working and you need to get back on the road...
Breakdowns will not be a major issue for years. Despite the negative reputation electric cars can go several thousand miles without fail, mostly tires are the limiting factor. As far as service tesla already has mobile mechanics. It would not take all that long to setup a heavy equipment version. Training would be the limiting factor
@@francis_lang years? That's unrealistically optimistic. How many auto accidents are there every single day? As the percentage of electric vs gasoline vehicles goes up, the need to repair them goes up as well... and with california's mandate that no new gasoline vehicles are sold by 2030, that's suddenly going to become a massive issue.
You could say the same thing about coal steam locomotives in the late 40's. Many mechanics for the old design, few for the new design. But when maintenance costs, and the cost to distribute coal to refueling stations every 250 miles along each rail track, they finally decided that diesel electric was the way to go, and closed many maintenance shops, scrapped trains that had a 30 year service life left, when some where as new as 8 years old. By 1960, very few steam trains where still in freight service. I think the same thing will happen with electric trucks. Once they figure out they can carry many of the batteries in the trailer, have a smaller motor there controlled by the cab throttle and brakes, charged with regenerative braking, they will quickly switch to all electric to save on fuel costs, and overall maintenance. They will train new mechanics! In 10 years, I think it will be difficult to buy a new diesel powered truck.
They might be able to do local routes and not over the road any time soon. Probably more than a decade away. OTR need to be be reach 1000 miles a day for team operations and 650 mile a day for solo operation. As 27 year veteran truck driver I drove 145,000 miles last year and I have nearly 3 million miles driven in my career. So electric trucks would need a massive step up in all OTR cases.
Hi. I'm curious. Would it be possible as a solo operator to schedule a 45min break somewhere in the 11hrs? How about the team operators, would that be detrimental?
@@mrblurleighton Breaks are MANDATORY by law for truck drivers. In my country every 4,5 hours a 45 min break. And maximum twice a week 10 hours a day. (9 hours other days)
@@mrblurleighton Yes we are Required to take a 30 min break for 8 hours of on duty time. How ever the issue has to do with the distances driven plus time for us to sleep. I can average 520 miles or so in that 8 hours. Depending on where I need to stop charging stations are going to be an issue. As I may have to stop my 11 hour clock at 9 hours instead of 10 to 11 hours because there is no charging where I am going. Example being delivery to farms or off road sites. Then there is running the heater/ac over night when I sleep. Raymond is correct that the truck would have to have some where around 1000 to 1300 miles for safety. Changing weather conditions and so forth in the areas of the US that have heavy snow and or wind. Those conditions will have a big impact on power use in the trucks over all performance. Not to mention again weight of the batteries and how heavy duty the power train is going to be as to how much weight we can haul. You have Over sized loads that in some cases run over 40 US Tons and some times up to 60 to 65 US tons.
The average US Interstate truck stop will have between 50 and 100 trucks in the lot at any one time. You will need numerous 'mega' chargers in place to support any sort of 30-minute battery top-off scheme. Not impossible, but not something that will happen anytime soon.
Matt, despite the fact that truckers can drive up to 11 hours per day, they will rarely (if ever) do this in one go. They will have stops in between to take a break, eat, or go to the bathroom. These breaks are perfect opportunities to recharge your truck. So in reality, a 500 mile battery should be more than enough for 95% of use cases.
How long do they usually stop, though? If it’s an hour per break and they do that multiple times per shift, then yeah 500 miles should be enough. If it’s ten minutes per break, that doesn’t sound like enough time to make up much charge. (Not trying to be a downer, just wondering what it’ll take for electric to dominate.)
@@RyanWilliams222 Trucker are required to take one 30 continuous minute minimum break for every 8 hours “on the clock”. This is in addition to the 11 hour daily maximum. If you have a megawatt scale charger and a 500+ mile range truck ( like Semi), a 30 minute charge on the required break would add about 50% range back so BEV truck would then have no trouble keeping up with a diesel semi even if at maximum load.
I was going to say the same thing. And I don't think they would mind to stick around 1 hour during the break if they can get filled up to 100% as well. In Europe the rules are much stricter. 56 hours a week max, with 2 days of max 10 hours. Every 4.5 hours a 45 minute break. So there the charging should be a non issue as well. And in countries such as the Netherlands 80% of truck drivers do day trips, long haulers is just 20%. So they won't even make the 500 miles a day, since the max speed in most EU countries is just 80 km/h. 10h at 80km/h is 800km ~ 500 miles.
@@williammeek4078 The average US Interstate truck stop will have between 50 and 100 trucks in the lot at any one time. You will need numerous 'mega' chargers in place to support any sort of 30-minute battery top-off scheme. Not impossible, but not something that will happen anytime soon.
what I think could be a good idea if possible is to put extra battery packs in the containers and charge them at the docks, cause the trucks often leave trailers at warehouses and pick it up after it's unloaded or loaded so it would avoid trucks from waiting to recharge. The only thing is it would need way more security for these super expensive trailers.
It's proven fact that an electric voltage is generated by a conductor (wiring or metallic rods) passing through a magnetic field (earth's gravity) will generate an electrical voltage. This concept is explained by Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction. Just add an array of wiring or rods on top of your truck and trailers and VOLLA! Perpetual motion.
Great video! When calculating the cost of operation, how is road tax being calculated? Each state adds the expense into the fuel at the pump and it becomes a large number regarding cost of operation. I personally don’t know those numbers but I know it to be a factor.
@@friedline1805 You obviously don't live in Europe, whole different world over here! Fuel tax is a very good question, because it gives European states a big opportunity to adjust fuel prices as they wish to promote adoption of EV or Hydrogen. Just look at the UK diesel prices in the presentation.
What no one is thinking of is that when I was a truck driver I took breaks for lunch and dinner and they could charge the truck then and really work the charging time into their schedule and not slow down the freight at all and drive forever.
@@williammeek4078 BEV'a do not have the long range needed for long haul transport, reason why Amazon logistics team picked Cummins/Westport Nat Gas running Semi's-700 of them. www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-engines-natural-gas-exclusive/exclusive-amazon-orders-hundreds-of-trucks-that-run-on-natural-gas-idUSKBN2A52ML
Australia has a different problem. Prime Movers are allowed to pull up to 3 trailers (known as a Road Train) on many roads outside of cities (2 trailers is common within cities, on selected roads - these are known as B-Doubles). I wonder what the range will be for the 500kWh trucks when pulling up to a road legal 200+ tons. This does not include mining trucks which can be 2 or 3 times longer / heavier.
After we started electrifying our transport system here in Norway, we have quadrupled the electricity prices. I hope you guys are ready to pay over a dollar per kWh and have daily outages. Because that's what happens when you try to run everything on electricity.
LIAR! Norway, September 2020: The price of electricity is 0.105 U.S. Dollar per kWh for households and 0.053 U.S. Dollar for businesses which includes all components of the electricity bill such as the cost of power, distribution and taxes. For comparison, the average price of electricity in the world for that period is 0.139 U.S. Dollar per kWh for households and 0.125 U.S. Dollar for businesses. And, there are NO daily outages. In fact, if more than a couple hundred houses looses power more than a few hours it usually hits national news.. Norway has excellent power infrastructure. Because it is a matter of life or death; people would freeze to death if there was no electricity. You are NOT Norwegian, you are a TROLL.
@@dutchdna You clearly haven't ever paid an electricity bill in Norway. This January I paid up towards 1.2 USD for 1 kWh of electricity, before taxes. It was the highest price since 2010, which was a record winter. This month was a bit better, but still much more expensive spot prices than previous years. We also have more power issues these days, as there's not enough power for new businesses to be established. We are literally losing jobs because of EVs.
@@AgentSmith911 You've got it ALL wrong. Maybe you do the conversion of Kroner to USD wrong. www.statista.com/statistics/596381/electricity-household-price-norway/
The important point about efficiency that I never hear talked about is if that range is with the maximum allowable load for an 18 wheel tractor trailer. Just because its a 500 kWh battery does not mean you are guaranteed the full range and these trucks might not make sense for mountainous or hilly locations.
I think you might need to revise that estimate up on the charger. For starters, I drove past a new Tesla Supercharger station yesterday and noticed the fenced-off unit with high-voltage hazard signs that was, I'm pretty sure, a dedicated substation. Grids have (at least here in the UK) a high-voltage grid for the biggest overhead pylons, a medium-voltage grid that fans out to villages and around towns, then a low-voltage grid that actually feeds into buildings. Don't ask me what the voltages are, Google has been pretty cagey with me, but the LV grid is 240V phase (415V line) and the MV is over 1kV. All existing rapid chargers - up to 350kW, the current maximum - connect to the LV grid. Based on the superchargers I've seen, as well as the hardware at Gridserve, it appears that one MV-to-LV substation supplies about 1MW. So, for a bank of car rapid chargers, you need to add a dedicated substation to your shopping list. On top of the substation, you need the chargers themselves. If you have the know-how, check out the datasheet for ABB's ultra-rapid Terra chargers. They use converter cabinets in pairs: one cabinet supplies 175kW, then you can connect two of them together to one or two dispenser units to supply 350kW to one charging session or 175kW to two. I bet they're being connected in series to get the voltage up to 800V - most electric cars have 400V battery packs, the state-of-the-art ones have 800V battery packs. In any case, for 1MW of rapid charging for cars, you'll need 6 dispenser units, 6 converter cabinets and a dedicated MV-to-LV substation. That, already, has got to run to well over £100000 - a 25kW DC rapid charger is almost £10000 alone, so 6 ultra-rapid units, including dispensers and their substation, are probably half a million or more. Now, let's think about electric heavy haulage. The battery voltage will be even higher, and Matt pointed out that CharIN are gunning for 1MW *per charging session*. Everything discussed above will probably have to be combined to create *one* ultra-rapid truck charger. But we are not installing *one* truck charger, we probably need to install 3 to 6. At this point, it might be more practical to do away with the substation and connect directly to the MV grid, but that comes with its own challenges too. I'm working on a project that involves a UK OEM building such a charger solution for cars - it's been slow-going, and they need some serious custom power electronics (which is good, otherwise I might not have a job!). Any savings from not installing a dedicated substation will probably be offset (and maybe then some) by the cost of high-voltage power electronics. I think £2million is probably a low estimate for a bank of electric truck ultra-rapid chargers. Like Matt says, it's much of a muchness. I mean, he doesn't say it in such a British fashion, but you know what I mean.
@@gigabyte2248 interesting, for a regular supercharger v2 in the US I’ve seen multiple places quote ~50k there are some unknowns like voltage for the megachargers and distance from the source but at least for the US I think 2mil is very high, most places to bore and place conduit it’s about 7$/ft rough average. Direct bury is cheaper especially if it’s along the highway and not in downtowns. If they build solar/winds and a megapak that changes the grid power reqs and all of the variables. We shall see
@@gigabyte2248 a large box store like Walmart probably already has something like 1 MW service. They wouldn’t have any trouble charging trucks at night and early morning during loading and unloading operations. They just need to be sure they dont try to compete with air conditioning in the late afternoon.
@vctjkhme to install, absolutely. Like with hydrogen filling facilities, they're expensive to buy and install. They probably won't cost much to run and maintain, though - power electronics are very, very reliable, and most of the problems the average driver has with rapid chargers are with the IT systems, not the high power stuff. The running costs probably will be close to what was outlined in the video. Also: you'd have to pay for all of this yourself at your own depot(s), but a truck stop that installs a set of chargers will get more users than just you, and a better chance of return on investment. Depending on the architecture of the system, they might be able to piggy-back a substantial number of ultra-rapid car chargers on the converters for the trucks, or co-install them, reducing the amount of grid work that needs to be done. Equally, a hydrogen filling station could offer a couple of dispensers for passenger cars. They won't have as many customers as the EV chargers (nowhere near), but I get this feeling that the infrastructure build-out for fuel cell trucks will make fuel cell cars more viable. They'll never reach the same level of adoption as EVs or diesel, but I think they might be a niche market, like LPG cars. Ok, time to wind my neck in.
When do you think we're going to see a flood of electric trucks hitting the market? And if you liked this video, check out Are Stirling Engines the Future of Renewable Energy Storage?: ua-cam.com/video/Be3FckQoDws/v-deo.html
Electric power strip..... Has anyone considered putting an oscillating magnetic strip down the center of the lane on Interstate highways.? The field could be picked up by a coil of wire on the underside of the car. (Like the phone charging pad) this would eliminate the range problem, & cars would need way smaller battery packs.
You said it yourself. We don’t have the battery power or the hydrogen facility. I can’t see any change for decades if not our end before it comes.
Fuel cell semis & busses are being adopted by numerous companies, with many start ups (yes, Nikola but others like Hyzon) are being supported & adopted & developed globally. Towing & distance, whether in work or leisure, at lengths when towing, is a hard sell charge times aren't conducive, yet shorter & mid Bev's can work. Depends on the need(s). Trains, ships, planes, & flying cars & taxis drive hydrogen demand, with blue & green H2 the ones to look for (while grey H2, from fossil companies, are a concern).
And then I get to the part you can talk about it. Also see Volvo, Toyota, & GM (besides China & Australian start ups).
@@remicaron3191 I am more hopeful than you ..please search Tony Seba and check out his work ..you will be blown away that how many disruption already happened ..and how fast the disruption virus is spreading ...just for the records ..In a lithium ion battery 2% is total lithium used and if you using a Iron phosphate battery then the cathode and anode material is so abundant and cheap that you can literally make infinite battery..
You miss one thing. Load capacity. How much truck weighs and how much load can it carry.
diesel electric trains
@@tommersch4296 what they mean by capacity is that semi trucks are restricted by a weight limit. truck and trailer weight equals 3 and load size equals 4 so overall capacity equals 3+4=7. The capacity can be raised by adding more axles, but that adds more weight and wear items while making the trailer more complex (added axles need to lift up for turns).
@@tommersch4296 diesel electric trains still use diesel engines to power them. The capacity of which ultimately comes from diesel combustion.
Plus fully electric trains are used for passenger transport not freight.
So the main problem still remains.
Why do freight trucks just throw the load in the back and tow it from the front? Is that the most efficient way of bearing the load given the rectangular volumes they carry, or is it also a logistical matter where it might be impractical to do it any other way since everyone already does it this way already, and it's just good enough in most scenarios anyways, etc
@@tommersch4296 Trains can't go everywhere.
Here in the US. A diesel truck can drive 1,000 miles before you have to fuel it. Also in 11 hrs you can drive up 700 miles or more depending on traffic etc. If you put a heavy load on electric trucks the 300 to 500 mile range will be decreased. The 70 to 90 minutes charging time for electric trucks takes time from driving. You can fuel a diesel truck with 300 gallons in 15 minutes
Here in Aus we have trucks that typically range from 25 - 35 Meters can reach up 50+ meters long in some states, They pull anywhere from 80 - 200 tonnes and are expected to cover hundreds and sometimes thousands of Km's of unsealed roads in remote areas.
Even places with sealed roads on major highways ain't it. No one's going to be able to fix an electric truck out on the nullarbour. It is 750K's of nothing at 35C in the day -2C at night and that's without factoring in the road temp.
Electric vehicles have their place but its not for long haul trucking. Too many folk want to put all their egg's in one basket.
@@louiscypher4186 9
You're comparing level 1 electric truck to level 99 diesel truck, give electric some time to grow up and evolve, the first diesels were not great either
Wait until it’s -20 F in the Midwest. See how far it will really go. All those pretty promotional scenes are summer driving
@@ferdtheterd3897 Except that this whole thing forgets how much carbon based power stations are going to be made to sustain all these trucks to get power.
Curious, unless I missed it, you did not touch on the carrying capacity of the Tesla Semi. Elon did the same thing at the unveiling a couple (several) years back. If the energy density in 1kg of fuel equates to 19kg of Tesla's newest battery cell structure (and it does) then you are going to need like 15-18 tons of battery just to get 500 miles with a load of pillows or uncompressed cotton. Not even sure you can put all that weight in batteries just on the tractor because of axle weight restrictions. So not only will a Tesla semi be limited to less than a third of a diesel's cargo load capacity, I think you'd also need a custom trailer to hold the rest of the batteries to keep all the axle weights legal. There is no way Tesla doesn't already know this. My guess is this thing will end up being a 24 foot cube van for inner-city deliveries only.
bingo someone how thinks before doing a video in the internet...... hehe ;)
Exactly, large electric trucks are quite simply a non starter due to energy density. There's a reason we use diesel.
Exactly! Cargo=money. So that "operational cost" cannot compare. Plus drivers can cover less km at an hour. Less km/h= less money, so...
@@wiciuwiciu2783 American trucking is finished when fossil fuels are finished.
@@Withnail1969 You mean the whole world Shipping right? It's not only America who uses Fossil fueled trucks it's the whole world.
The test will be going over the Great Divide in the middle of winter when it's 15 below.
@@electric7487 that is not happining. the ground could not hold up the truck.
plus one heck of a boom if containment is broken. lol
Are you sure you really want to do that, most of the roads would be blocked with stranded electric trucks. Some guys did a real world test of a electric pickup pulling a trailer in the hills, and guess what the range at highway speed going up hill was dismal. And they did it on a 70deg day, now if it was 15 below it would have been even worse.
I agree ! Also in places like straya where having to go 800km or more between fuel stops is a real issue even with modern diesels !
That's about -10 in celsius, if like me that live in the rest of the world are wondering
I think electric lorries (trucks in the UK) would work well in the UK. They don't have huge distances to go and if charging takes about 90 mins then they can charge while on lunch or when at the depot/delivery point.
They certainly seem worth trying for fixed route large deliveries, like supermarket distribution centres, where the infrastructure will get a good return on investment.
Or when they are forced to stop for breaks every 2(?) hours
for everything else
rail should be the go to
it's way more efficient
you invest into the infrastructure once
so you don't have to lug around a huge battery or a Diesel tank or even superfluous drivers
EDIT: no more incest
Since every truck driver must make a stop of at least 30 minutes after 4 hours driving, I would think they would target reloading for shorter periods during those brakes. And maybe at hubs while being loaded/unloaded (for trucks in distribution networks for supermarkets etc)
@@Al3xki 4.5hrs driving and then a 45 min (min) break. I like the idea of 2 though and I wish you were my transort manager ;)
Ports should be using electric trucks. A lot of these trucks don't travel far but drive all day and night.
Well, market will tell.
That's a great idea, unless they can get diesel fuel cheaply due to location* Another big area for electric automobiles is warehouses, and they'll probably be autonomous,, both small and larger applications.
In fact, automated trucks have been in port transport for years.
ua-cam.com/video/HkauiGYT6YY/v-deo.html
Just as most warehouse fork lifts and pallet "transporters" are electric, Short and Ultra-short high volume transport is a fit for EV -as long as the battery+drivetrain weight is similar to the weight of Diesel Drivetrain+fuel, there will be no "hit to transport capacity".
Like city-cars, local transport is the obvious fit.
For on-highway long distance transport, 80% ... (quick charge capacity - batteries LOVE working between 20% and 80% capacity - not too far outside those limits) ...range needs to be in the 5-6 hour Driving intervals (~360 mile (~580km) range) between rest stops (30 minute rest every 5 or 6 hours is fairly common - regulations may vary for different countries/regions).
@David Brookes , sound much like the condition of Transit Bus Fleets. However, with the owner being municipalities or public the incentive is much higher & there does not appear to be that much conversion to electic propulsion.
Matt I love your channel, and this is yet another great video but I am a truck guy and I have some quibbles with your analyses: EV and ICE trucks may both require the same amount of tires, however diesel trucks require many more fluids and filtration then EVs do, and when it comes to 18 wheelers. those are pretty significant costs. In addition to that all diesel engines that are built after 2010 consume DEF which is an additional cost, There are also brakes and the maintenance of the DPF filter to be considered. In addition to that I don't think the disruption will necessarily come in the the long haul at least not initially . Regional trucking in major metropolitan areas is where EV trucks will dominate. Many trucks spend there average days droning around in stop and go traffic at least for parts of their duty cycle. One must consider that every single second that a diesel truck is standing still in traffic it is idling and thus consuming energy vs an EV which is pretty much consuming nothing when it isn't moving, this may seem trivial but it really can and does add up. The simplest way to put it is, the major initial disruption will not come from trucks that run 100k annually, rather from applications where trucks that run all day but go relatively short distances during that time where the savings will really manifest. Sorry for the long rant it's a subject I'm passionate about. Thank you again Matt for what you do. Cheers!!!!
I like your long rant, thanks for the comment.
as owner of 15 diesel Semi operating in US-CAN , Diesel engine repair is too expensive to operate it. people try everything to from Emission controls bypass and buying 20 years old trucks which legally don't require emission control but they are largest polluters.
Excellent comment, your points are correct and material to the comparison. So thankyou, no apologies necessary. Those trucks in the cities in stop and go traffic are a big source of pollution in a small area, and it seems like they are everywhere as I walk around trying to breath.
Nice to see such passion articulated so well. Thanks for leaving such a well thought out comment. Cheers.
Deliveries within and near cities are such obviously perfect use for electric trucks and vans that it amazes me more companies didn't build their own when none were on the market.
I am a retired truck driver from the UK, by far the biggest overhead for running a truck it’s a fuel costs if you take that down transport companies would jump at it, the big problem I can see is taxation, A big chunk of the cost of diesel‘s tax the government takes a very big wedge, so where is the government going to find the revenue obvious to me they’ll put it on battery charging defeating any financial advantage
Thanks for including the UK comparison prices, really useful when the cost of fuel can vary so widely in different countries!
You guys are being ripped off by the Queen. Roughly 63p per petrol litre is tax! That's INSANE!
@@Brandon_letsgo It costs even more in Norway, Denmark and Sweden and is roughly the same in Netherlands, Portugal and Italy so for Europe it's only a bit higher than the average.
@@Nolligan That's terrible since there's no commerce without transportation. Tax on energy is the most regressive kinda tax that existis. It's morally indefensible.
@@Brandon_letsgo I don’t think the Queen still collects taxes. I believe that’s the role of the Treasury and it makes sense that the tax collected goes towards maintaining and improving roads. Except it doesn’t as it goes into geneal revenue. So you’re still right - Brits and Aussies are ripped off.
@@mondotv4216 There way more roads in America and they're in a very good shape without overtaxing petrol and diesel.
Its interesting to see a well thought out perspective from someone outside trucking. I've driven trucks in Europe for about 20 years, so I have a fair understanding of the industry.
A couple of areas I feel you did not take in to account is the vast majority of trucks driving local routes don't just have one driver. Most of the work I've done involved handing the truck to the next driver. The truck isn't sitting still for the 90 mins it takes to achieve the 80% charge. So add the cost of 2 or 3 extra trucks to the fleet to maintain maximum work load, then the cost of maintenance, insurance, repairs etc. It all adds up and diminishes the advantage of battery powered electric trucks. The saying in trucking is "if its moving, its making you money. If its sitting still, its costing you money".
You highlight in the video the average millage per year and life span of the truck. Most of the larger companies I've worked for replace the trucks at 750,000 - 1,000,000km (Its Europe so its metric) but I have driven trucks that have driven 1.5 - 2 million km. Normally at the end of its life with the company that bought it new the truck is sold in the used market. Have you ever tried to use a 10 year old battery, like in a laptop or a phone. The battery loses its ability to hold a charge with each charge. A diesel truck does not suffer this in anywhere near the same way. So add the devaluation of the resale value trucks to the equation and batteries are a larger cost in the long term compared to diesel.
For me hydrogen wins hands down in trucking. Compared to diesel, its cheaper, more efficient, refuel time is the same, one stop at the pumps to tank up does a days or nights work and compared to batteries it has greater range. But most importantly weighs less. As trucks have total weight limited that includes the cargo (in Europe this is 44ton), hydrogen trucks will be able to carry more cargo.
My personal belief is that cars will continue with batteries but heavy haulage will go down the hydrogen path. This will in turn lead to the hydrogen infrastructure being built. Once that's in place, car drivers regularly driving beyond the range of the battery and having to do a 90 min stop to fuel up will want a return to 5 mins stops on the forecourt. At the end we will have a mix on EV solutions.
I like your comment. Furthermore looking at it from a holistic point of view, one of the beast paths to decarbonise heating in the residential sector is to move to hydrogen. A hydrogen infrastructure is needed in many countries and this transition can be accelerated by having other sectors demanding that resource as well.
I think EVs and hydrogen are both equally required, and not necessarily in opposition, but i definitively see the advantages of hydrogen to advance decarbonisation in other sectors.
In regards to the blue vs green hydrogen situation, I thibk blue hydrogen can kick-start the industry moving towards scaling up the required hydrogen infrastructure, but i would be worry that the strategy would be to rely solely on this supply in the long term. There must be clear plans to speed up green hydrogen production and phase out blue hydrogen as soon as possible.
Very well said sir. Also can this truck drive thru some flooded area diesel truck still is the way to go. There are part of the world electric powered truck may not be viable let say road train this trucks are massive can electric truck replace them? Its all about range and the heavier the truck the more battery it need to move the truck and the load.
Well said, but as far as I know humans did not invent safe and cheap way to use hydrogen. I mean yeah, it's cheaper and lighter, but it's also way more prone to leakage and inflammation. Have I missed some cool new tech that lets people to distribute, dispense and use H as a fuel that has appeared in the last year or two? Because nothing that we use today is suitable.
Oh, and in case you say "we will find the ways later" - yes, we will, but lets not repeat the same mistake we did with electro cars, lets start thinking about using hydrogen as a fuel AFTER we find a way to use it?
Very valid points. The main problem of hydrogen is the low efficiency. The so called green hydrogen is produced through electrolysis using electricity generated from renewable energy sources. The process has energy losses of about 20-30%. Then the hydrogen needs to be compressed to 350 bar or 700 bar at a cost of 3-6% loss, or cooled to be in liquid state at much higher costs. The compressed or liquid hydrogen is then transported and distributed, again, with losses of about 10%. Now the truck is filled with hydrogen, of which only about 50% percent can be converted into electricity by fuel cells. All of these means the electricity - hydrogen - electricity conversion efficiency is somewhere about 30%. Handling of electricity has much higher efficiency.
@Al Jaume @Robert 3nidad @Anton Morozov @Chang Luo
I fully believe that what way large goods vehicles go in terms on EV power storage will shape what everyone does for anything outside local driving (local being a radius of half the battery range or "there and back"). You guys bring up some points I'd never considered like flooded areas or road trains but I wonder how artic and mountain driving effect the batteries performance. I think this is not something that will be decided by drivers, planners or transport managers. Its going to be the accountants as its all going to come down to the profit at the end of the life cycle of the truck.
The other thing we should take in to account is if green hydrogen becomes readily available or solid state batteries deliver what is expected then the winner becomes obvious.
I definitely see the benefit of a mixed solution if the second hand market is relatively unaffected by the batteries life span. I know Tesla have some high confidence in the life span of the battery but have you seen the cost to replace a tesla battery? Personally I'd have a hydrogen as I regularly travel across Europe in a car. My current 9-10 hour drive becomes about 14 hours with current battery tech.
Chang Luo, I remember seeing this somewhere before and I think even with hydrogen being a low percentage for the efficiency of the whole life cycle it was still better than what we currently have. Also I think electric was around a 80 or 90%. I may be wrong on this as I cant find where I saw it.
Glad to see the side by side comparison with us here in the UK 🇬🇧. thanks for another great video 👍🏼👍🏼
But...does the "cost" of electricity include the underlying cost of charging stations? The grid build out to support them? Also, what happens to the mountains of toxic batteries when they reach end of life?
Recycling of Lithium batteries 🙌
As for the battery question, I've heard that upcoming Solid-State Batteries would solve that issue, or at least significantly reduce battery-related waste.
@@louisshin642 I have seen many proposed alternatives which appear to be in the works. My point is that right know, today, they are doubling down on lithium/cobalt.
We can't possibly charge all the electric trucks we would need without greatly expanding the electric grid. And there's no money or resources to do that on the scale we would need.
What toxic batteries? Lithium ion batteries are not toxic.
Down here in New Zealand a supermarket company has been running electric delivery trucks for about a year, working in cities not between them.
Ali's dairy? Your government is doing nothing to accelerate the change. The "Clean and Green" is all vaporware and clever marketing.
@@drosophilamelanogaster3957 Don’t worry we’ll just have a ton of climate refugees and local governments won’t do anything. Until one country eventually conceded and gives their sovereignty to the UN effectively making them have control over the movement of people. This will then ripple effect and every country will give up sovereignty in order to solve the problem and we will have a global state to battle climate change and probably to colonize the solar system, too.
Years ago milk vans were electric so as to not wake everyone. Not new tech.
@@KRYMauL Sounds awful. Incentivise people who want power to of a global government to push a problem not give solutions.
@@James-sk4db Idk Expanse was pretty cool.
I worry about what happens to all the smashed battery packs that are from traffic crashes. Fire risk, storage, recycle ability, etc...
You do realise gas is highly flammable
@@chrisward5626 Gasoline is. Diesel is not.
The flammability of battery packs is a real concern. Remember when Galaxy notes were recalled because they could blow up in your pocket?
@@cdunn2669 the phones didn’t “blow up “ at all . Yes they burn but don’t explode . It’s not gasoline. You seem to ignor all the cars on the roads with their gasoline plus the tankers carrying the stuff .
@@chrisward5626 lol....
The guy that invented the pneumatic car got shut down bc they said "if theres a wreck, the air tank would act like a missile ".....he said a gas tank is not a teddy bear.
He had windmills manually turning air compressors to fill air tanks for practically nothing.
glad you aren't in charge of anything...whatever minor peril that is doesn't compare to impaired drivers, lack of efficiency and labor costs...dude the trucks will move autonomously...running 24/7 with little fuel and no labor or liability it's the one thing we can all look forward to...lower prices on anything...you aren't in business are you? So you wouldn't get it.
a cost that you missed is fuel taxes. We already have government running around trying to figure out how to get their pound of flesh from current EV owners, the EV Trucks will also incur this cost and probably more.
It's only a matter of time until the tax collection gets added into the charging stations the way it is now with fuel pumps.
They get you on the registration side. My EVs are $200-$300 more than a regular gas vehicle in California.
@@TobyCostaRica That seems like a drop in the bucket compared to the amount I am charged on a gallon on gas. I will switch to EV but I could not rap my head around owning the Apple of cars. Not a hater but I think you should be able to repair your own vehicle or at least have options. I more than have the skills for this but Tesla says no. As more EVs hit the market this may change.
@@TobyCostaRica i wouldnt expect that to stay that way once the government realizes how much theyre missing. I think its the lack of standardization that has shielded owners from beign charged ast the point of charge to this point. It woudl be trivial to make even home chargers payment collection centers above and beyond the cost of the electricity.
i'd still expect the extra registration fees though. Especially in CA.
@@willstikken5619 I’m sure in a few years, now they’re giving checks out to go electric. My last vehicle was Fuel cell and CA gave me $5000 and carpool for the lease. Toyota provided 15k for fuel since to go 250 miles cost about $80 in H2
Y'know, with how much energy is lost by brakes in big, heavy trucks, hybrids seem like a good place to start. Currently, most of the braking is done by 'Engine Braking', letting the engine resist the transmission with no fuel. Letting generators capture high-torque electricity to be re-used for acceleration (the hardest part for a big truck) just seems like a good idea.
The problem I see barreling directly at us is WHERE IS THE ADDITIONAL ELECTRICITY GOING TO COME FROM? Power production capacity is already overloaded in any place that has restricted or shut down Nat Gas, Oil, and Coal plants.., not to mention Homer's "Nu-cu-lar" plants... (IE: California? -- Texas' grid failure? -- Hurricanes?)
More EVs = more demand. The supply is already strained!
You don't do alot of breaking on the highway. That would only work for box trucks that travel a lot in cities
Braking in an EV truck generates electricity that is stored in the battery.
hybrid, but plug-in EV + Hydrogen. 🤩
@@johnlshilling1446 just gotta build more LFTRs
I want to see the battery usage on the Tesla truck the 500 mile range truck climbing say the Ike in Colorado fully loaded.
And the recharge when they are going downhill.
They won't even release cold weather performance, lol.
Me too. I'd like to see a battery powered semi oull 20 or 30 ton up them mountains in winter lol
How stupid do they think we are. And that peckerhead talking don't realize a diesel engine provided his last meal
@@357bullfrog9 piece of cake; the electric truck will out torque the diesel big time; it'll maintain highway speed up that hill
@@357bullfrog9 Batteries can be heated and well insulated to do that job. Once they are under load, the will heat themselves with the discharge. I guess this challenge would only be one if you start at the bottom of the hill having parked the truck over night there in a cold winter night. But this wouldn't be good on a diesel either :-)
I driven over Wolf Creek Pass on a Push bike in my youth. I know quite right what you are talking about ;-)
An important consideration in electric vehicles is the extreme weight. To fulfil such a high range, even with the new type of batteries being made with 2x range, the truck has a weight limit. To drive on a road, the truck and trailer must not exceed a certain weight. This means that the truck's hauling capacity will be reduced significantly to only a few tonnes- might as well buy an electric box-van to do the work.
What might work well is having reduced battery range and having a trolleybus-like system which the trucks use on motorways, accompanied by a battery pack used when off the motorways. This means less weight.
They'll just change the rules, as always, to achieve their Agenda........there is no public concern allowed.
It's proven fact that an electric voltage is generated by a conductor (wiring or metallic rods) passing through a magnetic field (earth's gravity) will generate an electrical voltage. This concept is explained by Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction. Just add an array of wiring or rods on top of your truck and trailers and VOLLA! Perpetual motion.
@@bygrace3455 perpetual motion will never work. Every system has losses, therefore you can't make perpetual motion.
Using the earth's magnetic field as a power source? Well, the magnetic field is far too weak for that!
@@ryanvigus9634 I remember getting those figures from an Adam Something video I watched (before he was widely known to be an asshole) so these figures aren't from nowhere. I can no longer remember the specifics, but I clearly remember that the amount of cargo space lost would be more than a truck company is willing to lose.
I believe fuel cells are lighter for the same weight, maybe they will be the thing the trucking world needs? Or, y'know, move all long distance transport onto electrified railways, and save trucks for last-mile...
@@ryanvigus9634 I'd like to see your maths, though. Batteries aren't exactly light- even Li-ions or Li-Fe-Po batteries still weigh a fair amount.
For such ridiculously long ranges, in such a heavy vehicle, they're gonna be big.
You should have your own channel on Discovery my friend, your videos have such high quality and the content is on point and well made. Can't get enough of your videos
Discovery is junk compared to this guy.
Massively. It was good back in the 90's, but not anymore.
@@beaudavis3808 That's why we need to make it good again with the right people ;)
Watching this in March 2022... LOL at the diesel gas prices from last year. Crazy how quick things can change. Great video. Love this guy!
Good video! It seems that a big miss is no mention of Hyliion. What I love about their solution is that their powertrain charges while operating and is flexible but initially uses natural gas which is available already (although not widely enough). Their solution seems to be the best for early adopters.
It's proven fact that an electric voltage is generated by a conductor (wiring or metallic rods) passing through a magnetic field (earth's gravity) will generate an electrical voltage. This concept is explained by Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction. Just add an array of wiring or rods on top of your truck and trailers and VOLLA! Perpetual motion.
I don't believe there ever will be a "flood" of EV trucks. I can see them being adopted in small numbers by large specialized carriers like WalMart but I cannot imagine a large volume of EVs until there is an enormous overhaul of the type of support that surrounds the trucking industry
Walmart, Amazon, etc. will drive this market. Any company that controls both docks will put in chargers for the trucks while loading and unloading. It will be likely to cut their shipping costs significantly.
The trailer they’re hauling will also often have a large unused flat surface area on top. The trailer could be fitted with solar panels to generate additional power while sitting or driving.
I don't think that's enough surface area to generate an appreciable amount of power given the power the drive train uses. May be able to run things like the accessories off a solar array.
if it takes 2KWH as shown in the video to drive a mile , we are taking about 120 KW of energy (driving at 60MPH) consumption . Imagine how much space a 120 KW solar panel will take.
The amount it could collect would be insignificant compared to the energy required to drive the vehicle plus load.
go back to school and study physics
@@hokitika4888 They don't teach that is school . school is focused too much on getting good grades with least effort
Operating cost goes out the window when you realize you need 3 electric semis to carry the same load of 1 diesel semi (when accounting for weight of battery).
You need to be multiplying the operating cost by roughly 3 for the math to make sense.
It's proven fact that an electric voltage is generated by a conductor (wiring or metallic rods) passing through a magnetic field (earth's gravity) will generate an electrical voltage. This concept is explained by Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction. Just add an array of wiring or rods on top of your truck and trailers and VOLLA! Perpetual motion.
As I've said before, imo they can be useful to supplement the industry but not phase out or replace diesel entirely. Some distribution centers can put charging stations in their facilities for running local deliveries, trailer jockeying/ yard dogs, etc, but not full otr through mountains and in serious terrain. There are too many variables, such as being stuck in snowstorms and not being able to charge. Then, the deceased drivers' families will sue everyone involved, including the janitor. The added weight of the batteries would automatically lessen the freight per truck, which would most like only add to the problem.
All you have to decide is where the originating energy comes from
Now we just have to find a source of magic free electricity to charge and manufacture the stupid batteries. Perhaps we could burn unicorn poop?
Why do EV enthusiasts insist on breezing past the major impediments to going all green: The fact that minerals necessary for battery production require massive amounts of fossil fuels to mine and transport them and that surface mining of certain minerals destroy forested lands?
@@004Black ignorance is bliss.
@@004Black Given the share price increases in rare earth minerals, I would suggest that some people are all-too-keenly aware of the realities of the sector...
The sun. Solar powered Megacharging. Tesla technology.
You also need to factor in the payload loss because of the extra weight of the batteries. For long range trucking, we're probably looking at close to 1000 KWH weighing over 10,000 lbs. Even then, it will still have a shorter range than Diesel.
A 180 KW battery is about 2,000 pounds. They don't need more than 400 KW in the tractor, but ultimately they will probably have 200 - 250 KW in the tractor, with another 200 - 250 KW in the trailer with it's own motor on one of the trailer axles. The current 15 liter engines and a 13 speed transmission is about 2,800 pounds, while a 300 gallon fuel tank is 2,000 pounds.
is the range with full loads or empty?
Full of air bro.
Very interesting presentation ... I'd love to see your cost/mile figures converted to cost per Cargo-Ton Mile, I think the outcome will show electric as far less favorable than is currently being presented: the energy density on electric is lower, meaning more mass of batteries is needed, highway regulations stipulate the maximum gross weight of the truck with it's cargo, therefore the electric truck will not be able to haul so much cargo because of the mass of batteries it's hauling (which for long range I think is going to be pretty significant). This will increase ir's cost per cargo-ton mile (which I suspect is the figure the haulage company is probably interested in; not cost of driving the truck from A-B, but cost of getting {x} tons of cargo from A-B, and I again suspect haulage companies double-up on deliveries to try to keep that truck near it's maximum weight whenever possible, to maximise cost per cargo-ton mile)
The payload on these trucks is 5 tons which makes the whole thing unviable. This is why Elon isn't actually building them.
Although it's important that you consult an experienced transportation provider before moving overweight freight, you can expect to be allowed 22,000 pounds per axle (44,000 total) for these loads in the majority of states.
I love how all the assumptions on this video are ‘based on what Elon said’ and totally ignoring the weight of all those batteries reducing the potential cargo weight…, believing the King of Snake Oil sales 😂
@@ironclad445 It's proven fact that an electric voltage is generated by a conductor (wiring or metallic rods) passing through a magnetic field (earth's gravity) will generate an electrical voltage. This concept is explained by Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction. Just add an array of wiring or rods on top of your truck and trailers and VOLLA! Perpetual motion.
@@mavrickdraft It's proven fact that an electric voltage is generated by a conductor (wiring or metallic rods) passing through a magnetic field (earth's gravity) will generate an electrical voltage. This concept is explained by Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction. Just add an array of wiring or rods on top of your truck and trailers and VOLLA! Perpetual motion.
Electric trucks are so good out in the American Southwest, you never see them. Thats cause they dont last out here. The heat will eat that battery up in no time.
Bingo.
Yup and even worse in winter especially north of the 49th.
Another great video I appreciate the reference to the Engineering Explained towing video. BTW, at 12:35, in the speed up truck stop clip, there is a guy leaking in the bushes.
The EE video is so good. Love his break down on all the math behind this. And man ... you've got some eagle eyes catching that guy taking a leak.
@@UndecidedMF lol, my eyes just happened to follow the movement in that portion of the frame, had to rewind to confirm. Keep up the great work on the videos!
@@UndecidedMF Sometimes he's as dumb as a bunch of rocks. In a video about electric trucks he thought that mountainous regions wouldn't be a good fit.... That's where they will shine the brightest. Zooming up steep hills at the speed limit instead of crawling, and recovering a good chunk of their range on the downhills, not burning through their brakes.
@@samuelprice538 You really come across as someone who didn't try to listen, didn't try to learn, and just heard something that sounds wrong to you and decided "he's as dumb as a bunch of rocks" without doing any further research. If you bothered to watch the towing video in question, you'd already know exactly why "Zooming up steep hills at the speed limit" isn't going to work out well for electric trucks towing a lot of cargo.
I remember an article that I read many years ago where an electric car company was flirting with the idea of removable battery pack. You would pull up to a station where the used battery pack would be slid out and charged. A freshly charged battery pack would then be slid in and connected to the engine. The total time for the change was only a few minutes. I wonder if something like this could be done efficiently for trucks.
This is now being done by Nio cars in China. I would imagine trucking is not far behind.
@@brendanmccann5695 cars? If they could make the batteries smaller and more powerful, that’d be great but they way it stands now America and or any counties infrastructure will not and cannot handle that constant bombardment to its infrastructure. We’re already complaining about the slightest pot holes in the road now- imagine if we had to immediately switch to those batteries and what it what do to shipping and receiving as well as the consumer.
The end of the video is exactly the reason why hyliion trucks, utilizing CNG and RNG (net carbon negative), are by far the best solution for the class 8 trucking market. TCO, range (1000 miles), as well as the fact that the infrastructure is already in place for natural gas makes it to be the best solution by far. Hyliion will be a major player in the space mark my words.
I think you'll see more electric trucks in Europe to start with. Stricter time limits on how long a driver and drive for, combined with generally shorter hauls make the market more conducive to at least this early generation of BEV trucks. I wouldn't count hydrogen out at all, as Matt mentioned the infrastructure isn't there for either yet. It's a matter of who can build out their respective system the quickest and be the most price competitive.
On the contrary, it seems to me that hydrogen is the correct option for cargo transport (trucks and trains) and public transport; while batteries for the particular segment. In addition, the infrastructure for hydrogen is similar to that used for CNG.
EDIT: and don't forget that batteries are not recycled yet (cost / benefit)
I agree that shorter hauls make electric trucks much more viable. I would think that even in the US a large percentage of the routes for a truck are depot-to-depot or point-to-point deliveries that are much less than 500 miles per day in total. These are also probably the routes that cause the most pollution with lots of low-speed start and stop type driving.
As to infrastructure, there is already a huge distribution network for electricity with "only" the last mile stuff missing; the charging stations. Hydrogen on the other hand has no distribution network and would, perhaps, be prohibitively expensive to establish in the relative short term. I am a big fan of hydrogen but I believe that it is probably a next-gen fuel source. whereas electricity is ubiquitous and easily distributed today.
@@afewdeer6627 I have *zero* experience with this. But is it really a last-mile problem for the heavy-duty charging requirements that trucks will require? I'm thinking that it might require more of build out than the typical automobile based charging station would require. That's just very much a guess, however.
@@fmvm I disagree on public transport, China already has proven that electric busses are more than possible, one city the size of small countries in population switched to fully electric busses in just a few years (forgot which city it was). My local (well provincial) public bus operator bought some hydrogen busses 2 years ago and shelved them after a few months due to too expensive.
In Europe most trainlines are electrified, so no need for hydrogen there. As for trucks like the original commentator said, EV trucks would fit perfectly into the time limits imposed on the trucking industry (After 3-4 hours mandatory 20-30 minute stop to rest, no longer than +-10 hour driving untill taking a much longer rest, meaning around a max daily distance of 525 miles with stops during which some charging can be done). Hydrogen trucks might stil be used, but more likely as a niche sector.
Hydrogen really could play a part in air and sea travel when it comes down to transportation, for other things it is much more limited.
And no, the infrastructure for hydrogen isn't similar for CNG, or better it isn't usefull. Sure it is similar in that both are a gas, but that is mostly where it ends. Most of CNG infrastructure isn't really fit for hydrogen and there aren't many cng cars/trucks to start with, so there isn't much infrastructure anyway.
As for recycling, EV companies are already looking into recycling as a cost saving measure since they don't need to constantly mine and refine their needed resources, something that is rather costly due to the low % of these resources in the overall mined material, however batteries already have a rich presence of these resources.
@@fmvm the UK freight industry is annoyed at government saying hydrogen could replace overhead line expansion for rail, they say having the extra equipment for the tanks and fuel cells would be a few extra carriages’ worth. They want overhead electrification precisely because it’s got the least space, weight, and has the highest power output rating.
Cut any claim that Elon Musk makes by 75% and you might start getting into the world of reality.
I said might.
Electric batteries only loose range & I’d say a 500miles range is probably more like 200-250miles if you’re towing a ton of weight.
You can burn the motor out faster cuz there’s no cooling system that’s touching the cemetery of the motor at all, & w diesels they have so much torque in em they can be hauling a lot & also be getting 15-17mpg or at least the old ones are.
For example my old 95 f250 w the 7.3 Powerstroke was hauling 5000lbs on a an all day trip. It got 16mpg, it might’ve gone slower, but it still used the same amount of fuel towing all that weight/ 10-11k lbs including the weight of the truck, trailer & vehicle.
EVs are not the future it’s just we have politicians that are forcing it & create the same amount of pollution that the diesels do.
@@michaelbenoit248 well I think diesel does produce even more pollution then EVs but still not by much. There has to be a better alternative.
@@michaelbenoit248 NO Semi tractor has EVER gotten 15 to 17mpg. 5 to 8 is the standard for something with the weight & gearing of a Semi.
@John Brennan What I want to know is...WHO'S paying for a truckstop to install a couple of HUNDRED "mega chargers" and the infrastructure needed to support (electrically/grid-wise) the MASSIVE electrical draw on the grid that said truckstop will now create?
What if I have to stop at a rest area because I run out of logbook hours? How do I charge my truck there? Most States don't even want truckers PARKING in rest areas, so how will we convince them to put in chargers too?
@@swaghauler8334 your concerns are mostly not real. clearly our current rules wont apply to a different future, why would you think they would. your no different that the guy saying, "i cant tie my new car to the horse post in front of the bar, it says horses only". we will of course manage just fine. when gas engines first came out, you couldnt exactly go to a gas station, they didnt exist, you had to order gas through the mail, in 1 liter glass jars. clearly thats unsustainable, and anyone trying would think its hopeless and wont go anywhere. it clearly did. relax. it will be fine.
Where are you getting the power to charge these trucks. And what are you going to do with the old batteries
shhhhhh
It is cheaper to recycle the metals in an old battery than to mine and refine new metal. In other words, all old truck batteries will be recycled.
@@kdungan100 At what cost of a new battery pack for the truck?? So they are recycled but then you have to buy another $50k (or way more) battery? C'mon man! Joe Biden lingo there.
@@kdungan100 Then why are only 5% of used EV's currently recycled ?
its sad to say but it is still far...far cheaper to mine and refine these units than recycle...if that were not the case we'd not be land filling them at the rate like we currently are..
that may all change....but right now were just landfilling a problem for another generation to deal with..
Get educated, jezus. Answer to your first question: Renewable energy, probably solar. Next, I simply 'googled 'recycle tesla batteries' and this popped up along with a bunch of ADs trying to turn me into a recycler. The mere FACT that someone is running ads for recycling batteries tells me there is a 'market' for recycling these batteries and it's apparently very robust. Good O'' American ingenuity! medium.com/tradr/teslas-approach-to-recycling-is-the-way-of-the-future-for-sustainable-production-5af99b62aa0e
Apparently Tesla built their batteries with recycling in mind. Smart. You unchangeable old folks can stop poo-pooing the future now. You're starting to look like a bunch of geezers demanding more whale-oil.
What about Hyliion ERX? Carries generator with it and burns RNG with infrastructure already in place. 1000 range.
I'm glad you talked about hydrogen. I don't think semi cares about infra because a large business like pepsico can install a hydrogen station in their facility, unlike homes.
Hydrogen ain't goin' anywhere. That's a petrochemical pipedream the gas and oil companies need to stay in business - they gotta sell something they extracted to make a buck. Hydrogen is dangerous and would need an entire coast-to-coast distribution network.
Think Hindenburg. Kablooey goes hydrogen! Just like Nikola.
@@beaumob do you have any knowledge on gas tank safety? Petroleum gas and such are also stored quite safely in gas tanks, and hydrogen, quickly rising up into the air would actually be safer than that. We aren’t transporting hydrogen in big balloons that just explode at random.
Also, hydrogen generators with over 80% efficiency can be built on location with just electricity and water. That will be a quite attractive solution in the futre
Volvo trucks already testing in Norway. But they say they need to charge in the lunch break
My lunch break seems to only ever be 10 minutes about 7 hours after I start working so hope it can charge fast
@@juliogonzo2718 no way it’s gonna charge that fast 💀
It's crazy to know that in the US drivers are allowed to do 11h a day.
In Germany for safety reasons we have a maximum driving time of 9h (exceptions for 10h are possible from time to time)
And after 4.5 h you have to do a 45min break.
Electric trucks are a perfect fit for German regulations. Makes you wonder why they don't release them here first. 😕
It's already happened. For example, MAN put the eTGM (200 km range for urban use) on the road in 2019.
The video focusses a lot on Tesla and on the US perspective, but Volkswagen is building them already.
U.S. is much larger, we need more time to get to locations in a timely matter.
@@synura8086 Because short range trucking is not an issue, anybody can make those.
Here in the US, we must do a 30 minute break after 8 hours of driving, and as he mentioned we get a total of 11 hours to drive. We can be on duty or driving for a total of 14 hours in a day, then we’re required to take a 10 hour break.
Canada allows 13hrs driving
I have an idea for electric semis. Put the batteries in the tractor but put another battery in the trailer. The trailer battery can give you more range, but the real benefit is when you drop your trailer and pick up another one. You wouldn’t have to wait to charge it because it would be hot when you pick it up. They can charge the trailer when they’re loading/unloading it at the dock or when it’s in the yard.
It's proven fact that an electric voltage is generated by a conductor (wiring or metallic rods) passing through a magnetic field (earth's gravity) will generate an electrical voltage. This concept is explained by Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction. Just add an array of wiring or rods on top of your truck and trailers and VOLLA! Perpetual motion.
@@bygrace3455 there ya go! Or we could build all of our roads in electro magnetic fields and we could drive through them! I’ll bet that we wouldn’t have to rely on power plants anymore. Just get enough people driving through electro magnetic fields and we solve the whole problem!
The electric truck is a nice “pipe dream”right now, that may do well moving freight the furniture, but for now diesel is the magic to get things done. electric trucks will have to over come and out perform the diesel trucks we have now that get the job done. Until then they will be nothing more than a fantasy
I never understood why electric trucks (or cars for that instance) necessarily have to outperform their internal combustion counterparts. If they do 5 - 10% worse, then who cares? It's not like in the 90's people have said, "Oh no, we can't use those trucks, because they're not as efficient as they will be 30 years from now!" We are allowed to factor in the added bonus of heavily reduced carbon emissions, so why do they have to have a head start in efficiency? If usage starts as soon as possible and becomes significantly widespread, in 10 years from now they will be significantly more efficient and at some point surpass the combustion vehicles.
Electric cars were Not commercially feasible just a decade back. Trucks will become electric eventually
@@lonestarr1490 Ask someone that is running a business using commercial vehicles like say a trucking company that runs trucks coast to coast trying to run a profitable business. I’m sure they could explain why the next few trucks they buy have to do better than what they have now. It’s called making money, plain an simple
Back in the 50's they thought "Why retire and scrap a 10 year old coal locomotive?" Yet they did it because the cost for maintenance was so much more expensive than diesel trains. They will find electric trucks much less expensive, and will scrap the diesel ones very soon. One key will be a electric motor and 400 KW battery in the trailer, that can sit for 6 hours between trips at a distribution center charging itself.
Diesel prices almost doubled since you posted this 6 months ago. Electricity costs are going to zero with renewable growth. Diesel cannot compete no matter how you slice it.
Any love for Hyliion Matt? Great content and production as always!
For some use cases you can put the battery in the trailer. The trailer battery can recharge while it’s at the dock
Clever!
Well that will sacrifice volume of the trailer, and the more weight you put in, the less weight you can carry. You notice a lot of trucks have aluminum wheels? It's not just for looks. Aluminum wheel is up to 30 lbs lighter. 30×18=540lbs. That's 540lbs more payload capacity as you are limited to a maximum gross weight, and axles have a weight limit for each axle so weight distribution is important as well. You could be within your maximum gross weight, and still overweight on some of your axles and subject to $1000s fines
@@juliogonzo2718 "For some use cases"
@@traviswatson6527 No one is going to buy these to haul less cargo. Keep dreaming.
@@BigMateo24 why you getting offended? Shit ain’t personal. Not all trucking is the same. Not every load or every trailer is weight capped. Loads of LTL, volume capped, etc. Keep an open mind. Or keep being close minded and stay out of business decision making 😉
I want to throw a wrinkle into this somewhat. Back in the 80s diesel engines got double or even 3 times as much mileage on a gallon of fuel and the same could be said of gas engines before Catalytic Converters, gas engines in the 50s and 60s would get around 40 to 50 miles per gallon. At one point I had an 84 GMC Suburban which would get 32 miles per gallon highway and 26 city. Theirs a theory on weight, but the Suburban being made of heavy grade steel body and frame versus the new lightweight steel frame and plastic body. They also said the weight comes from the power windows and locks and other things where they hook up wires. Suburban had the power windows, locks, steering all that stuff. The suburban had one other thing that most other vehicles did not have at the time. On the back was a tailgate like on a pickup, but with a slight difference, it had a power window that would go completely inside the tailgate. This made the tailgate heavy (about 50 lbs) and held up by two thick wire cables. This could have been done years ago, If we went back to this sort of energy efficiency it blows the batteries out of the water hands down. You would get double what the battery gets and save on emissions actually, using less fuel to get to the same distance. Do you ever factor in the emission cost to make these batteries? The production puts out more emissions than the gas and diesel cars produce and if we can up the mileage per gallon on a gas and diesel vehicle like we used to have it would lower emission levels. You want to know why its never been done? It comes down to the bottom line. If you have to fill that tank more often then you make them wealthier. A lot of things that worked well they had to find a way to lower the efficiency or ban it all together. If it doesn't put money into their pocket then its no good to them. There is still another major problem with electric aside from the fact that it just does not have the power for heavy lifting. No one is thinking of the big stuff, you are showcasing a standard tractor trailer that really isn't pulling that much weight. Throw 12,000 lbs or more on a battery truck and see how far it gets. 12,000 lbs is the low end. Other major problem with electric, the plugs aren't all the same there are two many different companies that you have to have an account with and each one has a different rate, there's no regulation on it. What happens when we have another Texas winter? Do you know that in certain temperatures batteries have a hard time producing energy? That is why in winter sometimes its hard to get your car started, but at least the battery in a gas car is only used as a capacitor, once the car is started you don't have to worry about the battery. Parts are more expensive and the resale value is always going to be horrible. Not to mention car collisions in these things would leak some really nasty hazardous material if those cells crack. No matter what battery you are using it has acid or a chemical just as dangerous inside of it. Self driving cars aren't any safer, before you go off on that. Too many collisions and lost signals in areas that has caused collisions or property damage. No one thinks how this impacts people is rural areas, or the fact that people just can't afford them in general. After a while batteries can no longer hold a charge. How much would it be to replace the battery pack? could you get a replacement battery pack or would you have to buy a whole new vehicle? What happens if your battery dies? Not like you can jump it and off you go. Another point is if you run out of power on a long trip, not like you can go to the nearest gas station and fill up a can with electricity and take it back to fill up your car. It actually happens a lot. Logistics that people just don't think about. Not to mention the long charging times. The main point is that at some point our companies and governments have made it so you have to consume more gas and diesel to fill their pockets. If we fixed that problem it would fix other issues. Not to mention at some point because this isn't netting these same people the profits they are going to push for some legislation that decreases the efficiency of these vehicles and tax the power companies more to drive up the price of electricity all around. That is what happened when diesel started to take off. It was half the price or lower than gas, but then legislation got passed and jacked up diesel prices. Not everything has been thought through, to be honest, but if you have answers for these things feel free to reply. Positive feed back only, don't need anyone cussing me out because I have concerns and questions that no one has answered or really brought up, it goes back further than the electric car debate. In closing there are a few other questions to be asked and talked about, but lets start with what we have now.
tldr
America needs more trains for long distance hauling. It'd cut out a long of truck haulage
Yes, but trains will only get you so far. You still need trucks for the final mile(s).
@@UndecidedMF the trains will significantly increase efficiency and reduce the need of lithium/batteries.
@@UndecidedMF in many countries around the world they even have trams and trolleybus that doesn't need gigantic batteries to operate.
@@carholic-sz3qv Efficiency is not increased by trains. Trains are rigid, inflexible and ultimately only profitable for heavy loads, but not for fast, flexible and direct transport. In addition, trains are extremely loud, louder than commercial vehicles with combustion engines, so that noise barriers and even noise protection tunnels have to be built again and again to protect the residents from the noise of the trains.
@@carholic-sz3qv Let's face it. Separate lanes have to be built for trams and trolly buses. Moreover, trams and trolly buses are extremely vulnerable to unscheduled diversions. Trams and trollies are also not flexible, but can only follow a specific route. Trams and trolly buses lack flexibility - and ultimately, trams in particular are very noisy - even compared to buses with combustion engines.
What hasn't been discussed much is the enormous amount of extra renewable electricity needed to replace gasoline and diesel usage.
Wholeheartedly agree -- what is base power for the charger systems if the solar don't shine & wind doesn't blow ? if the renewable storage capacities aren't adequate? anyone read about the Glasgow power issues bringing back coal plants on line since the wind didn't blow? - every time the EVs are promoted all conveniently omitted,
@@jimjones9100 that’s okay, as long as baseload is mostly renewable it’s fine if coal or gas plants are used for peaking
@@calebweldon8102 Thx for followup - but not ok if the activists momentum is to ELIMINATE fossil fuels. Where does your reply then sit? With all the modelling in the Covid area how is it that the climate change promoters have not supplied modelling on availability & costs for2030,2035,2050 energy /electricity supply when fossil fuels are ELIMINATED? MOST curious question is why haven't we asked for them?
@@jimjones9100 Just do as you're told, peasant.....
@@jimjones9100 this reminds me of something I seen on tictok. A guy pulled out a generator from his tesla car.
Thank you for including the UK as well as USA data, we really appreciate it. :)
Yeah higher fuel costs here and lower distances I can see giving a big advantage to ev trucks when the infrastructure is available
Yes we get ripped off in the UK. We pay well over TWICE the petrol costs, and even though £1 = $1.49 we pay the same in pounds that they pay in dollars in the USA! So a $1,000 piece of tech should only cost £718 - so why do we get charged £1,000!?!?!?! Don't get me wrong, I am all for switching to a 100% renewable energy sources, and scrapping all fossil fuels, but when are we going to say "Hey, stop ripping us off with tech prices in the UK!"
all my american friends are ready to jump to metric
i told they already have it and they are say they need a critical mass
@@pollywoodglobal2965 I find it funny because imperial (inches) has no real way of measuring especially small things, like nanometres and micrometres (or the liquid equivalents of nanolitres or microliters), and they are terrible for even things as big as millimetres (or millilitres), so places which "don't do metric" don't seem to even notice when they use these measurements in technology or in any area where high accuracy is vital. I must admit, when it comes to long distances I tend to think in miles, but that's because I was bought up being taught both imperial and metric, and whilst metric makes more sense and is far more accurate, in the UK all speed limits are in miles per hour, and distances given default to miles. But there is ZERO excuse for Fahrenheit to still exist - come on people, its an outdated system that was GUESSED on blood temperatures, which even by its own standards is wrong! Centigrade is based on water which plays a massive part of things like our weather (0 degrees C = freezing [turns solid], 100 degrees C = boiling [turns into gas]), so make the effort to start thinking in Centigrade, and stop teaching children inaccurate systems. :)
@@TimLongson paying extra for fossil fuels is the best way to modify behaviour . People care more about their bank balance than protecting the environment. The Americans would all be driving more efficient cars if they cost more to fuel . Tax the stuff you want to discourage , tax breaks for electric and renewables .
Where I think this tech could really be a winner: Buses.
School buses don't need massive range, or even highway speeds, but as it stands now run the same big diesel engines the big trucks run
I could easily see the next generation of school buses, and perhaps even public transit buses going electric with the tech being developed for these trucks.
Regenerative braking is going to be a significant cost savings with not having to replace bake components.
Diesel semi trucks use engine breaking instead of breaks, when going down a hill and some trucks even have a retarder installed... They're not burning any diesel when going down a hill, but unlike BEVs, they aren't getting anything back from it either.
@@Daddo22 Yes I understand the brake retarder/engine braking features because I used to drive heavy trucks for a living. You're not allowed to use those within city limits due to the noise of the revving engine and most of the braking occurs while city driving. Another big plus will be no more shifting.
@@glennjones1054 thanks, I didn't know that from my limited experience just playing EuroTruck Sim... Now I see that the regen braking is even bigger deal for semis than I realized
Would you break that much when traveling long distances? One of the problems with the electric cars is that they get better mileage in town because there's lots more breaking and less mileage on the road because you don't use the regenerative braking very much. And also what about the weight capacity. I thought this video would talk more about the mileage and weight factors.
Hyliion's Hypertruck ERX will be a huge success. When fueled with renewable natural gas it can deliver net-negative carbon emissions.
I had to baby my rig when it was -72 with wind chill up in Canada. I’m curious what the range of a battery truck would be in Canada in the deep cold. 13+2 hours in Canada.
well with those temperatures diesel wouldnt be too bad you would need a lot of heat for the cabin anyways so the internal combustion engine would make a lot of sense there i would say thermodynamicly the diesel engines efficiency improves when using the excess heat
4:48 Why does Volvo even attempt building a 82,000 lbs electric truck when the maximum US vehicle weight allowed (including cargo) is 80,000 lbs? I mean, even if they trim it down, what meager cargo can it even carry to meet the total 80,000 lbs requirement?
if you want to make electric semis the future of transportation, you must first make electric railroads. if the rail road can be operated with out a battery it can transport the bulk of the produce to distribution centers in major municipalities. Transportation to suburbs or rural areas would be done with the battery powered semi. lower energy consumption in the battery powered semi would be less worrisome and cost effective to not preform. The persisting problem would be the rate of charge, but as time goes on that will easily be improved and would burden the consumer less in the end.
We would be well served by having more freight on rails instead of the roads for many reasons, including this.
@@johnhorner5711 Perhaps, but not every little town or even modest sized city has a rail spur. Still going to need trucks to haul away cattle , produce, etc.
description: "towing a lot of weight takes a major hit on efficiency" - no, efficiency of electric drivetrains is still about the same under load (usually the efficiency of electric motors is between 85-95% over a wide range of operating points; i.e. it barely changes with varying load).
It's the other way around: ICE cars and semis can run closer to their most efficient operating point when under load (the efficiency of a combustion engine has far more variance, from
Introducing the third option (hydrogen) after comparing the costs of diesel and BEV makes it difficult to compare all three. The price of hydrogen is significant.
You need about 3-4x the kwh to produce the equivalent in hydrogen power if you use green hydro. So, whatever the cost of energy is to charge a battery truck times 3x is sort of the lower end of that spectrum. At the prices cited, that would be more expensive than diesel. Of course you would not use grid electricity for either. So it may not matter as much in the end considering electricity may end up costing a fraction of that. At that point other cost dominate the operational cost.
@@JillesvanGurp dont forget gas leaks. It is insanely hard to contain Hydrogen an it is insanely dangerous if it leaks in the closed space.
Always a funny moment when watching "some dude in America's video" about electric trucks ~ and then all of a sudden, there's images of a local shopping street in a Swedish city you've been to multiple times... just that moment of thinking "Wait, what? Why is he showing clips from Malmö... oooh, right... Scania trucks! Skåne!" 😁
11:40 Umicore and Anglo American are working on a organic hydrogen carrier liquid. This would mitigate the need to invest heavily into a new hydrogen infrastructure, because we could use the existing petrol station infrastructures. And you don't have the usual hydrogen storage problems.
(I'm sorry if I made typos. English isn't my native language)
after reading a few vague google results it sounds like they're bonding hydrogen to an "organic liquid" so some other organic molecule ( one containing H, C, N, or O) then de-hydrogenating it with a process similar to the one shown at: 10:54 and using said hydrogen to power a hydrogen fuel cell to produce electricity. I wonder what the 'organic liquid' is, and what it's going to have as a reaction byproduct. Hydrocarbon and CO2? Hydrogen Peroxide and H2O?
@@cortburris9526 The organic carrier won't really participate in any reaction because it only carries the H+ to the catalytic dehydrogenation. When dehydrogenated the carriers is conjugated (it has unsaturated bonds). This gives "space" for H+ to bind with the carrier once they hydrogenate it again.
So in theorie if you catch the carrier after dehydrogenation at fuel station for example, the industry can regenerate it with H+ and bring it back to the fuel station.
(I'm sorry if some terms are weirdly translated 😅, I don't know all the terms in english)
Post edit: shortened the text 😅
That would solve the hydrogen storage problem, but it would make an already expensive fuel even more expensive, and it would add a lot of weight. So, it creates more problems than it solves, rather like hydrogen.
@@chrismuir8403 well it wouldn't necessarily make it more expensive, but that depends strongly on the used technology and the economic policy (I don't know if that's the correct english term 😅) of the country where it would be used.
Yes yes. The weight of the fuel would be higher, but you can use existing pipelines instead of specialised cooled high pressure vessels. Once at the fuel station it can be converted to the classic Hydrogen fuel.
It's true that hydrogen still has drawbacks. But every advance like this makes it more and more viable as a sustainable alternative fuel for heavyweight transport and other uses.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think leaving hydrogen, or other alternative fuels/energies, behind would be a good thing to do.
Or maybe I'm too optimistic ? 😅
(I'm sorry my texts are so long 😱)
L - You don't need to apologize for bad spelling, grammar or being long winded. We English speakers are used to people from many countries trying to speak, and write, so we are used to it, it's no big deal! Yes, there will be rude people that will point out your mistakes, but you don't have to read their remarks, and if we think you write too many words, we don't have to read them either.
You have to check e-hiways videos... they exist in Germany and Sweden...they are cheap to implement and efficient charging while driving...the electric trucks have pantographs in their roofs to full charge while running under electric lines cantenary with 800 volts similar to trains... that's the future! 500kw battery with pantographs... always fully charged to run on suburban roads
yes this is the way we can have electric trucks
Could be viable, maybe not as elegant but definitely a good solution.
@@Gengh13 hiways are always ugly anyway... with all that new electric structures, they can improve road lightening and include green solar and wind energy conduit cross country all over European continent between major cities...
I was going to write a comment similar and I agree, I think overhead power supply on key highways and freeways is the way to go, not just for trucks, but for cars and busses as well. Due to the height difference in cars and trucks it may be better to put the power on the ground like a 3rd rail but then you will have issues of idiots (or children) electrocuting themselves so, I don't know.
@@legallyfree2955 the height of electric road catenary is usually between 5 and 6 metres ...
You have such good presentation, and damn, I feel smarter after watching you. 😜
Love your videos, keep it up.
he sure sounds smart---but he's presenting a false case. He breaks down diesel costs, but never tells you about the slave labor-fueled alkaline mines in Chile where toxic battery components come from. Nor does he explain how such toxic chemicals will be disposed of at end of life. Also--is alkaline any less finite than oil? There are far less chemicals available in the earth to make batteries than there is oil. Slave labor, mimited resources and toxic battery disposal? THIS is clean energy?
My concern is the disposal of batteries, Nevada has become an electric battery dump site/state. Currently one company is recycling the batteries but they can't keep up and they are not making a profit
I was talking to a friend who designed what is essentially a black hole that condenses electricity from our environment.
This would provide constant energy without the need for wind, sunshine, or any other source of backup energy.
He and his partners built a facility and are now manufacturing enough units to power 200 semi trucks for the Dept of Defense.
Once you own one of them, you will have free electricity forever, or as long as the unit remains in working condition.
It was a fascinating conversation and wish I could have retained more detail information about it.
This is what Tesla was doing but on another level.
You forgot to factor in the fact that - at least in the EU - drivers are required by law to stop for at least 45 minutes after driving a maximum of 4.5h continuously. Time which can be used to charge.
Europe is also betting more on Hydrogen for heavy lifting like trains and trucks, and even Steel production, which is a bit more lucrative as it is significantly less dependent on resources from outside of Europe for production
I will not be holding my breath waiting for the battery packs to charge just one semi let alone thousands.
"I will not be holding my breath waiting for deliveries of fuel for one automobile, let alone thousands" -Someone from 1905 probably
Congratulations, you just made trumptards sound smart. We already have them, fool.
@@RuffStuff420 You exposed yourself as an imbecile when you said trumptards. Us normal moderate people don’t talk like that and we sure as hell don’t associate with insane people that do. Grow up
Hello, I tough that one of the biggest issues with electric towing vehicles is that your battery is stealing payload capacity and you didn't mention it at all what gives in the total cost of operations you are taking in account that you will need more trucks to deliver the same weight?
Today's diesel price $3.297 in USA amplifies these savings. There is a fast approaching inflection where they wont be able to give away diesel trucks.
What do you think of Hyliion truck solution?
All hybrids do is add complexity to an already expensive and high maintenance drive line. The other big problem is it adds weight and reduces payloads which won't go down well with the operators loading the axles to the maximum allowed.
You really don't know what is Hyliion about? Don't reply if not informed with facts
What is the expected electricty production needed to charge al the new EV's?
1/3 added to the present 500 GW capacity in the U.S. Also 1/3 more grid capacity. That assumes an equal distribution over time for charging.(not everyone charge overnight)
About a third extra, not really a problem considering the margins already built into the grid.
@@aleksandersuur9475 We had 1 hr rolling blackouts in February in the midwest 15 miles from an east-west interconnect. The blackouts went across the state..
It was due to reaching grid capacity, not generation limit. If the grid is overloaded, the lines can sag and cause fires. Not everywhere at all times has the margins you would think.
@@kerryb2689 correction: not really a problem considering the margins already built into *correctly engineered* grids.
@@aleksandersuur9475 Also given the lack of extreme conditions (such as an extended large area cold snap). All grids were correctly engineered for the era they were designed for with huge margins for growth. I'm just saying we have had that growth both in population and electrical consumption since the time much of the grid was built. There are probably now locations additional construction will be necessary. This includes both the high voltage transmission, and low voltage distribution infrastructure. 1/3 could easily become 1/2 because everyone will drive to work and then drive home in their electric car, and only then plug in to charge overnight. 1/3 is just an average increase in load, not a peak -without smart charging.. The question becomes is a once in 10 year event considered proper for something to be correctly engineered? Many people in Texas would say no.
We are 3-5 years away from a technological paradigm shift. Compute power and battery storage will make this the roaring 20s.
Meh computing power has began to flatline
Battery storage is the bottleneck right now lithium ion and cobalt batteries are peak technology right now and inefficient at storing and releasing energy in a timely manner, long recharge times and a finite amount of resources to make them, Musk needs to stop screwing around with cars and rockets and get on perfecting graphene batteries
@@russianprussian4683 I reckon we are 4-5 from the resolving the fundamental challenges to advanced material batteries (graphene, solid state, nuclear diamond) and mass production of batteries with energy densities 5X lithium within a decade.
You know what happened after the roaring 20's....
A shortage of silver and rare earth minerals will make this "paradigm shift" only possible on paper.
I think you forgot about loadcapacity - how much of the trucks weight is the truck, how much is the cargo?
Texas-based Hyliion is already testing Class 8 electric powertrain trucks with operators fuelled by carbon-negative RNG.
@@fredbloggs5902 I don´t think that is the case. In California, 77% of all on-road fuel used in natural gas vehicles in 2019 was RNG.
Wow, i've been into lot of manths or software dev or games side to be unable to think RNG as anything else than RandomNumberGenerator
What are your thoughts on Hyllion Matt?
Please make a video on o2 tidal energy device which has 4 times power than conventional wind turbine. Much needed at this point!!
👍
From what I found it is actually almost half the power of a new conventional onshore wind turbine and around 3 times lower than offshore wind turbines. Sure, their peak power is higher (2-3 times), however considering their average power is said to be 4 times lower than their peak power, this peak power is likely almost never used and mostly a sales pitch.
Still very interesting though, I wonder what the necessary requirements are for placing them/what area's they can operate in.
@@MDP1702 , they are not using the same design here in the Bay Of Fundy (North America, Canada, between Nova Scotia & New Brunswick) but the change in tidal forces are destroying the test equipment.
I'm surprised you didn't mention an overhead catenary system for trucks. Lack of big batteries would not be an issue in such scenario. I think it's the best long term solution.
It's proven fact that an electric voltage is generated by a conductor (wiring or metallic rods) passing through a magnetic field (earth's gravity) will generate an electrical voltage. This concept is explained by Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction. Just add an array of wiring or rods on top of your truck and trailers and VOLLA! Perpetual motion.
@@bygrace3455 WTF are you talking about? There's no such thing as perpetual motion.
Yet another great and informative video!
Glad you liked it!
Matt:. Thanks. This is the first brand comparison with weights included. Very nice.
👍 Thanks.
I would like to see a version of this video but also done for cold weather climates, such as Canada. In Canada our max weight for legal trucks is 63,500kgs and we can drive for 13 hours. Cold weather massively affects battery efficiency. Would like to hear your thoughts.
It's proven fact that an electric voltage is generated by a conductor (wiring or metallic rods) passing through a magnetic field (earth's gravity) will generate an electrical voltage. This concept is explained by Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction. Just add an array of wiring or rods on top of your truck and trailers and VOLLA! Perpetual motion.
That’s called background radiation, it’s so low in power that it’s called background for a reason. And some truck drivers have issues hitting bridges and power lines at 13’6” high now, it would mean a lot more bridge hits to generate enough power for a watch to tick just one second.
One major oversight in this video and ones like it is the failure to consider downtime for repairs and the availability of pieces and certified technicians to work on these trucks. My semi will gross anywhere between 8000-12000 a week. If there is a bottle neck of techs/pieces to keep these trucks running, there is major revenue loss to consider. In the scenario presented you would stand to save ~20k a year. It would only take small hiccups in there supply chain to far outweigh the benefits of fuel savings. This technology is far from competing with the diesel standard in the industry. Diesel engine components are relatively cheap, plentiful and with a little bit of know-how, you can work on it yourself without the fear of receiving a fatal jolt of electricity...
had a mate wait 4 months for a new motor for his tesla would love to see a company wait 4 months for there truck to be fixed
It's all fun and games till your battery decides she has to take a sh!!!! 3-7k today, 7-9k tomorrow, and that's for a small car
No different to Gearbox or diff taking a Sh!!! Batteries will come down in price and will last longer History shows this, Diesel always goes up
There is a large tax component in the price of fuel in the U.K. This will have to be added to electric vehicle transport costs. (Or is it in there)?
@Andrew_koala Actually, you may have a point!
Considering the charge times you meantioned it seems like they are easily losing 1/3 of their driving time (though some of these breaks can be used for stuff like eating). Even if this drops by half that is still not going to be viewed favourably
Hey bud, they can only drive 12 hours a day anyway. 12 * 65 mph = 780 miles. If they get that much range and enough charging stations it’ll be fine.
@@Ja_Mes batteries add weight so either you need to reduce ratio of cargo to engine and fuel or stop to charge during the day which does count towards that 12 hour limit. Thats one of the major differences between combustion and electric vehicles, gas weight is relatively insignificant but requires an engine capable of turning it into useful acceleration so their isnt much downside to whatever range you pick whereas electric can use a simpler engine because of the versatility of electricity but gains weight fast when you add range
Fuel cells are inefficient and that idea should be discarded completely. I don't know why some people are still talking about that. SMH
Everyone seems to be looking past the problem of limited source elements like lithium. But, as always great and very informative video. Thank you.
There’s a ton of lithium around to make batteries. Especially since vehicle batteries are only 1-2% lithium
@@keco185 So you're saying Elon Musk's comment that the limited supply of lithium is a problem, isn't a problem?
@@Trikeree the limit is that people aren’t gathering it because there hasn’t been demand in the past. It’s not that we can’t get it. Also there has been a much stronger call made by Musk for nickel
Lithium isn't a long term problem, there is plenty of known lithium deposits that are just barely not profitable to extract. If the price of lithium were to increase by 10% the global supply would more than double; if the price were to increase by 50% the supply would increase tenfold. As the cost of lithium typically only makes up 2-5% of the cost of a lithium battery, even a 50% increase in cost would be negligible overall.
While some of this untapped supply are from mines that have shut down due to low lithium prices, most are from undeveloped deposits which would take 2-3 years to get going. So if demand were to increase faster than the market anticipates there might be a temporary shortage, which is what Elon is afraid will happen (as he predicts a much faster growth in battery demand than most industry experts), but such a problem would be just that: temporary.
Cobalt is a slightly larger problem. There are, however, plenty of cobalt-free lithium battery chemistries available. Unfortunately, currently all of them have one or more drawbacks over comparable cobalt-containing chemistries, such as lower specific energy (Wh/kg), lower volumetric energy density (Wh/l), and/or lower sustained charge or discharge rate (W/Wh). However, while these drawbacks do pose a major problem for use in electric vehicles, there is a large market segment of stationary battery storage which only uses cobalt-containing chemistries due to the economics of scale (i.e. the cost of manufacturing multiple chemistries exceeds the cost of using cobalt even when not necessary). If the cost of cobalt where to increase, this segment could easily switch battery chemistry, which would free up a significant portion of the global cobalt supply for other usages. Additionally there is a lot of ongoing research into cobalt-free battery chemistries, so with any luck this issue will be completely gone in a decade or so...
I really feel like electric rail infrastructure makes far more sense to move away from diesel.
you do know USA will never upgrade the railroad system. we got to hope for the hyperloop to work out.
@@orangecookie3132 So you are suggesting it would be better to build 10,000s of miles of "near vacuum" tubes with all the inherent problems of achieving that, to building 10,000 miles of traditional rail lines which has none of the problems associated with "near vacuum" tubes. Economically, rail would win hands down compared to any type of Hyperloop plus it could be electrified with no need to carry the batteries with the units.
@@orangecookie3132 Never say never, the thing about the US and rail is that the potential it's there. It's simply a matter of how bad things need to get before the nation jolts awake and how long completion will take.
@@orangecookie3132 Dreams.
@@orangecookie3132 Hyperloop is a scam. Trains are way more efficient and don't cost nearly as much
The math comparison forgets to include CO2 emissions from the power plant
Which power plant? Tesla's charging network uses 100% renewables and presumably anyone purchasing a fleet of electric trucks will also equip their depots with solar panels. It'd be a no-brainer to do so.
@@Ehralur Yeah and solar panels take no resources to make.......................they grow out of the ground just like a tree. So there you have it. Go Elon.........
@@henri1511 resources are not a problem. Things can require resources and still be sustainable.
Actually when you take into power production, transportation of energy, and cost of keeping the electrical supply in good operating condition they are a huge loss. Large marine diesels are running commonly at 50% efficiency while the best electrical power plants are happy with a 35% efficiency. The funny part of it is the maritime emissions are measured on a different scale than a powerplant so that Dirty Marine Diesel is much cleaner than the best (Clean) electrical power plant.
@@Ehralur Resources get extracted and refined using diesel fuel and coal. No solar panel has ever been made end-to-end without fossil fuels.
It seems that the easiest entry route for electric trucks is in the local to medium run area. Long range semi’s have problems that make them a more complicated proposition. For example, local/medium trucks don’t have have to contend with driver fatigue, pressure to reach a distant destinations on time, hurry up and wait charging, and bad weather that may occur along the way. To use a baseball analogy, it looks like Elon Musk has gone for the home run rather than a series of singles and doubles. Babe Ruth had a record strikeouts in addition to record for home runs.
UK gallon is larger than US, if you are converting litres to UK gallons its approx 4.54 litres per gallon. Great video.
He converted liters to gallon.
@@richardwee9428 Imperial gallons?
@@tuc-dh4df US gallons he wanted to compare apples to apples.
@@richardwee9428 Then why compare US prices to GB prices, not criticizing just getting things clear!
@@tuc-dh4df He was showing the fuel costs . He started with the US gallon to show the fuel cost in the US then showed how much that cost would be in GB, he did so by converting liters to gallons to show the price in US gallon. That is he was comparing like to like.
Can you make a video about materials used for batteries?
Yes and include the environmental and health impact of lithium mines. FYI they make the ugliest coal mines and oil sands mines look clean.
@@dmb25108Well said. Countries like China with no pollution regulations will have all of its citizenry running around like mad hatters playing with their mercury.
Electric and hydrogen will serve two different markets. I think hydrogen will be used for long range and heavy duty trucks needing a lot of power, probably in trains too which don't have overhead lines. Then electric will be used for more local stuff, like your supermarket or inside ports.
Electric freight trains? Is that a joke?
@@TKUA11 You do realize that all freight trains are already using electric motors, just using diesel generators, right? It's been that way for 70 or 80 years.
Plus, his comment does not include the word "freight".
@@TKUA11 lots of them in the UK are electric powered. In fact the freight industry is upset at the UK government dragging their feet on running overhead power lines on the routes which are yet to get it, because it’s making them spend more money on diesel and keeping up maintenance on their diesel-electric locomotives when they want to switch to the simpler electric locomotives.
It’s not really hydrogen vs electric. It’s hydrogen vs batteries. Similar to the way most freight trains are diesel electric, they will be hydrogen electric.
you failed to mention the weight of the battery, that would most definitely cut back the cargo load, which means a higher price pre ton delivered compared to a diesel truck.
"Maximum allowable weight for trucks on U.S. Interstate highways is 80,000lbs, including tractor weight, chassis and container weight,and cargo weight." I agree its a very important factor and they don't say or had any specifications about it or mention it.
One thing I always see that's missing from these evaluations is the folks that service the vehicles. You can find thousands of gasoline/diesel engine mechanics, especially for passenger cars; there's a huge pre-existing base of knowledge and experience.
On the flip side, the current knowledge base for electric trucks is pretty much zero, and good luck finding a mechanic that's not the ones from the companies selling you the truck - which might have to fly one in from a different state to look at the truck. Nobody talks about it, but it's going to become a big issue when you need your vehicle serviced because it's stopped working and you need to get back on the road...
Breakdowns will not be a major issue for years. Despite the negative reputation electric cars can go several thousand miles without fail, mostly tires are the limiting factor. As far as service tesla already has mobile mechanics. It would not take all that long to setup a heavy equipment version. Training would be the limiting factor
@@francis_lang years? That's unrealistically optimistic. How many auto accidents are there every single day? As the percentage of electric vs gasoline vehicles goes up, the need to repair them goes up as well... and with california's mandate that no new gasoline vehicles are sold by 2030, that's suddenly going to become a massive issue.
You could say the same thing about coal steam locomotives in the late 40's. Many mechanics for the old design, few for the new design. But when maintenance costs, and the cost to distribute coal to refueling stations every 250 miles along each rail track, they finally decided that diesel electric was the way to go, and closed many maintenance shops, scrapped trains that had a 30 year service life left, when some where as new as 8 years old. By 1960, very few steam trains where still in freight service.
I think the same thing will happen with electric trucks. Once they figure out they can carry many of the batteries in the trailer, have a smaller motor there controlled by the cab throttle and brakes, charged with regenerative braking, they will quickly switch to all electric to save on fuel costs, and overall maintenance. They will train new mechanics! In 10 years, I think it will be difficult to buy a new diesel powered truck.
Sounds just like regeneration systems came into this world and to this date, you still have to get towed to the dealership with a new truck.
Like any new technology people will have retrain or be left behind. New mechanics will automatically be trained in this technology.
They might be able to do local routes and not over the road any time soon. Probably more than a decade away. OTR need to be be reach 1000 miles a day for team operations and 650 mile a day for solo operation. As 27 year veteran truck driver I drove 145,000 miles last year and I have nearly 3 million miles driven in my career. So electric trucks would need a massive step up in all OTR cases.
Hi. I'm curious. Would it be possible as a solo operator to schedule a 45min break somewhere in the 11hrs? How about the team operators, would that be detrimental?
@@mrblurleighton Breaks are MANDATORY by law for truck drivers. In my country every 4,5 hours a 45 min break. And maximum twice a week 10 hours a day. (9 hours other days)
@@mrblurleighton Yes we are Required to take a 30 min break for 8 hours of on duty time. How ever the issue has to do with the distances driven plus time for us to sleep. I can average 520 miles or so in that 8 hours. Depending on where I need to stop charging stations are going to be an issue. As I may have to stop my 11 hour clock at 9 hours instead of 10 to 11 hours because there is no charging where I am going. Example being delivery to farms or off road sites. Then there is running the heater/ac over night when I sleep. Raymond is correct that the truck would have to have some where around 1000 to 1300 miles for safety. Changing weather conditions and so forth in the areas of the US that have heavy snow and or wind. Those conditions will have a big impact on power use in the trucks over all performance. Not to mention again weight of the batteries and how heavy duty the power train is going to be as to how much weight we can haul. You have Over sized loads that in some cases run over 40 US Tons and some times up to 60 to 65 US tons.
@@navithefairy @Kenneth Bankers Thx much!
The average US Interstate truck stop will have between 50 and 100 trucks in the lot at any one time. You will need numerous 'mega' chargers in place to support any sort of 30-minute battery top-off scheme. Not impossible, but not something that will happen anytime soon.
Matt, despite the fact that truckers can drive up to 11 hours per day, they will rarely (if ever) do this in one go. They will have stops in between to take a break, eat, or go to the bathroom. These breaks are perfect opportunities to recharge your truck. So in reality, a 500 mile battery should be more than enough for 95% of use cases.
How long do they usually stop, though? If it’s an hour per break and they do that multiple times per shift, then yeah 500 miles should be enough. If it’s ten minutes per break, that doesn’t sound like enough time to make up much charge. (Not trying to be a downer, just wondering what it’ll take for electric to dominate.)
@@RyanWilliams222 Trucker are required to take one 30 continuous minute minimum break for every 8 hours “on the clock”. This is in addition to the 11 hour daily maximum. If you have a megawatt scale charger and a 500+ mile range truck ( like Semi), a 30 minute charge on the required break would add about 50% range back so BEV truck would then have no trouble keeping up with a diesel semi even if at maximum load.
@@williammeek4078 Well then heck yeah, let’s start building those Megachargers!
I was going to say the same thing. And I don't think they would mind to stick around 1 hour during the break if they can get filled up to 100% as well.
In Europe the rules are much stricter. 56 hours a week max, with 2 days of max 10 hours. Every 4.5 hours a 45 minute break. So there the charging should be a non issue as well.
And in countries such as the Netherlands 80% of truck drivers do day trips, long haulers is just 20%. So they won't even make the 500 miles a day, since the max speed in most EU countries is just 80 km/h. 10h at 80km/h is 800km ~ 500 miles.
@@williammeek4078 The average US Interstate truck stop will have between 50 and 100 trucks in the lot at any one time. You will need numerous 'mega' chargers in place to support any sort of 30-minute battery top-off scheme. Not impossible, but not something that will happen anytime soon.
what I think could be a good idea if possible is to put extra battery packs in the containers and charge them at the docks, cause the trucks often leave trailers at warehouses and pick it up after it's unloaded or loaded so it would avoid trucks from waiting to recharge. The only thing is it would need way more security for these super expensive trailers.
It's proven fact that an electric voltage is generated by a conductor (wiring or metallic rods) passing through a magnetic field (earth's gravity) will generate an electrical voltage. This concept is explained by Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction. Just add an array of wiring or rods on top of your truck and trailers and VOLLA! Perpetual motion.
Great video! When calculating the cost of operation, how is road tax being calculated? Each state adds the expense into the fuel at the pump and it becomes a large number regarding cost of operation. I personally don’t know those numbers but I know it to be a factor.
The heavy vehicle road tax is paid as a 2290 tax form and costs ~$600/year. Its negligible in calculating operations cost
@@friedline1805 You obviously don't live in Europe, whole different world over here! Fuel tax is a very good question, because it gives European states a big opportunity to adjust fuel prices as they wish to promote adoption of EV or Hydrogen. Just look at the UK diesel prices in the presentation.
@@enemyofthestatewearein7945 You obviously didn't read his question.... He is speaking of a heavy vehicle road tax and not fuel
As in all things, this will be an excuse for MORE taxation.
What no one is thinking of is that when I was a truck driver I took breaks for lunch and dinner and they could charge the truck then and really work the charging time into their schedule and not slow down the freight at all and drive forever.
Apparently all semi are 1k miles non-stop multi-drivers for some reason, according to comments.
CNG electric hybrid, I think that's the right stepping stone between where we are now and full electric
Exactly, longer range, cheaper fuel and existing infrastructure. Why turn methane into hydrogen when it can be used directly.
ua-cam.com/video/Eo5Vrj28fmY/v-deo.html
Why bother? The BEV semis coming out will have a much lower cost of operation for the same performance.
@@michalfaraday8135 Because electric is cheaper and the infrastructure is largely already in place.
@@williammeek4078 BEV'a do not have the long range needed for long haul transport, reason why Amazon logistics team picked Cummins/Westport Nat Gas running Semi's-700 of them. www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-engines-natural-gas-exclusive/exclusive-amazon-orders-hundreds-of-trucks-that-run-on-natural-gas-idUSKBN2A52ML
Australia has a different problem. Prime Movers are allowed to pull up to 3 trailers (known as a Road Train) on many roads outside of cities (2 trailers is common within cities, on selected roads - these are known as B-Doubles). I wonder what the range will be for the 500kWh trucks when pulling up to a road legal 200+ tons. This does not include mining trucks which can be 2 or 3 times longer / heavier.
After we started electrifying our transport system here in Norway, we have quadrupled the electricity prices. I hope you guys are ready to pay over a dollar per kWh and have daily outages. Because that's what happens when you try to run everything on electricity.
LIAR! Norway, September 2020: The price of electricity is 0.105 U.S. Dollar per kWh for households and 0.053 U.S. Dollar for businesses which includes all components of the electricity bill such as the cost of power, distribution and taxes. For comparison, the average price of electricity in the world for that period is 0.139 U.S. Dollar per kWh for households and 0.125 U.S. Dollar for businesses. And, there are NO daily outages. In fact, if more than a couple hundred houses looses power more than a few hours it usually hits national news..
Norway has excellent power infrastructure. Because it is a matter of life or death; people would freeze to death if there was no electricity. You are NOT Norwegian, you are a TROLL.
@@dutchdna You clearly haven't ever paid an electricity bill in Norway. This January I paid up towards 1.2 USD for 1 kWh of electricity, before taxes. It was the highest price since 2010, which was a record winter. This month was a bit better, but still much more expensive spot prices than previous years. We also have more power issues these days, as there's not enough power for new businesses to be established. We are literally losing jobs because of EVs.
@@AgentSmith911 You've got it ALL wrong. Maybe you do the conversion of Kroner to USD wrong. www.statista.com/statistics/596381/electricity-household-price-norway/
@@dutchdna Those are outdated statistics. You have to look at the numbers listed in the official electricity exchange.
@@AgentSmith911 Show them to me.
The important point about efficiency that I never hear talked about is if that range is with the maximum allowable load for an 18 wheel tractor trailer. Just because its a 500 kWh battery does not mean you are guaranteed the full range and these trucks might not make sense for mountainous or hilly locations.
What about the cost to build the stations? I think it’s ~2 mil for hydrogen and ~50k for a new CKT to the substation
I think you might need to revise that estimate up on the charger.
For starters, I drove past a new Tesla Supercharger station yesterday and noticed the fenced-off unit with high-voltage hazard signs that was, I'm pretty sure, a dedicated substation. Grids have (at least here in the UK) a high-voltage grid for the biggest overhead pylons, a medium-voltage grid that fans out to villages and around towns, then a low-voltage grid that actually feeds into buildings. Don't ask me what the voltages are, Google has been pretty cagey with me, but the LV grid is 240V phase (415V line) and the MV is over 1kV. All existing rapid chargers - up to 350kW, the current maximum - connect to the LV grid. Based on the superchargers I've seen, as well as the hardware at Gridserve, it appears that one MV-to-LV substation supplies about 1MW.
So, for a bank of car rapid chargers, you need to add a dedicated substation to your shopping list. On top of the substation, you need the chargers themselves. If you have the know-how, check out the datasheet for ABB's ultra-rapid Terra chargers. They use converter cabinets in pairs: one cabinet supplies 175kW, then you can connect two of them together to one or two dispenser units to supply 350kW to one charging session or 175kW to two. I bet they're being connected in series to get the voltage up to 800V - most electric cars have 400V battery packs, the state-of-the-art ones have 800V battery packs. In any case, for 1MW of rapid charging for cars, you'll need 6 dispenser units, 6 converter cabinets and a dedicated MV-to-LV substation. That, already, has got to run to well over £100000 - a 25kW DC rapid charger is almost £10000 alone, so 6 ultra-rapid units, including dispensers and their substation, are probably half a million or more.
Now, let's think about electric heavy haulage. The battery voltage will be even higher, and Matt pointed out that CharIN are gunning for 1MW *per charging session*. Everything discussed above will probably have to be combined to create *one* ultra-rapid truck charger. But we are not installing *one* truck charger, we probably need to install 3 to 6. At this point, it might be more practical to do away with the substation and connect directly to the MV grid, but that comes with its own challenges too. I'm working on a project that involves a UK OEM building such a charger solution for cars - it's been slow-going, and they need some serious custom power electronics (which is good, otherwise I might not have a job!). Any savings from not installing a dedicated substation will probably be offset (and maybe then some) by the cost of high-voltage power electronics. I think £2million is probably a low estimate for a bank of electric truck ultra-rapid chargers. Like Matt says, it's much of a muchness. I mean, he doesn't say it in such a British fashion, but you know what I mean.
@@gigabyte2248 interesting, for a regular supercharger v2 in the US I’ve seen multiple places quote ~50k there are some unknowns like voltage for the megachargers and distance from the source but at least for the US I think 2mil is very high, most places to bore and place conduit it’s about 7$/ft rough average. Direct bury is cheaper especially if it’s along the highway and not in downtowns. If they build solar/winds and a megapak that changes the grid power reqs and all of the variables. We shall see
@@rogerstarkey5390 yes there is! Don’t get any hydrogen trucks!
@@gigabyte2248 a large box store like Walmart probably already has something like 1 MW service. They wouldn’t have any trouble charging trucks at night and early morning during loading and unloading operations. They just need to be sure they dont try to compete with air conditioning in the late afternoon.
@vctjkhme to install, absolutely. Like with hydrogen filling facilities, they're expensive to buy and install. They probably won't cost much to run and maintain, though - power electronics are very, very reliable, and most of the problems the average driver has with rapid chargers are with the IT systems, not the high power stuff. The running costs probably will be close to what was outlined in the video.
Also: you'd have to pay for all of this yourself at your own depot(s), but a truck stop that installs a set of chargers will get more users than just you, and a better chance of return on investment. Depending on the architecture of the system, they might be able to piggy-back a substantial number of ultra-rapid car chargers on the converters for the trucks, or co-install them, reducing the amount of grid work that needs to be done. Equally, a hydrogen filling station could offer a couple of dispensers for passenger cars. They won't have as many customers as the EV chargers (nowhere near), but I get this feeling that the infrastructure build-out for fuel cell trucks will make fuel cell cars more viable. They'll never reach the same level of adoption as EVs or diesel, but I think they might be a niche market, like LPG cars. Ok, time to wind my neck in.