I’ve often thought the same thing. Even Cochrane’s glimpses of the Enterprise-E could have easily influenced early starship design. Saucers and swept back nacelles appear earlier, superseding stuff like Daedalus.
They address this in Star Trek: Strange New Worlds. They acknowledge that the timeline has been changed-- a Romulan Time agent trying to kill a young Khan in the 21st century mentions that Khan was originally born in the '90's but the timeline was altered. The way I interpreted this was that the Original Series, ST:TNG, DS9 and Voyager are the "original" unaltered timeline. then that timeline enters the 25th centure and the temporal wars break out, with both sides editing the timeline, and we end up with Discovery/SNW/Picard (including Picard because an episode shows the SNW Enterprise, and the future lives of the crew have diverged from what was projected at the end of the series).
The timeline changed the instant TOS went back in time in the first season. It kept changing every time there was time travel. That and retcons are inevitable, but sci fi gives you the excuse to use it as a plot point.
I was Trek fan, even Captained a fab club, back im the 90s. We recognized 3 distinct types of Star Trek fans: Trekkers who just watch the shows and like them; Trekkies who've watched everything, know the trivia, buy some merch, and have been to a convention or two; and Trekologists who've read the books, buy the actual props from the shows, travel to conventions out of state, and make the fan-films. Even back then, we made them on camcorders and showed them to our fan clubs instead of posting them on UA-cam, but we absolutely had fan films.
I've had a similar thought since Enterprise. My head canon was always that everything shown after First Contact was a sort of shifted timeline. At first everything seemed the same (DS9, Voyager mostly), but as the series/time went on there's a sort of ripple effect changing things (Enterprise). Then you get further away and things have really shifted to the point that there's visual differences. (Discovery, SNW, The Disco Enterprise showing up as a hologram in PIC Season 1). It's not a perfect theory, but it works well enough for me. Your mileage may vary, etc.
One of my favorite fan theories involves that scene in First Contact where the Enterprise crew prove to Cochran that they’re from the future by showing him the Enterprise E through a telescope. Seeing it shocked him in the movie. We later learned in Star Trek: Enterprise that Cochran worked on future starships for decades, including the warp 5 engine for the NX-01. Seeing the E through that telescope may have influenced his design choices for a starship - nacelles angled upwards above a saucer shaped ship - and that changed how starships were designed way earlier than they would have naturally evolved. This explains why the NX-01 looks “too advanced”, why Pike’s Enterprise has swept back nacelles before the refit design of the movies, etc. It’s a simple theory but also makes a ton of sense 🖖
@ The Enterprise in Discovery had swept back pylons and other changes in the S1 finale and throughout S2 - was the TOS classic design featured in Discovery too? Initially, the Enterprise was designed for Discovery to have extra add-ons that could be stripped away before Kirk took it for TOS, but apparently the CG artists completely changed the designed engine pylons to look more like the movie refit pylons. They attach to the engineering hull in a completely different spot than the TOS design, which means the internals like the warp core are also completely reconfigured. All that being said… the Disco-Prise or Strange New Worlds Enterprise is probably my favorite design of the ship so I’m glad it appeared the way that it did 😁
The real problem now is Star Trek has embraced a divergent paradox resolution to time travel. On one side you have the causality problem posed by the temporal contamination of the Borg and on the other you have the fractured multiverse resolution of causality posed by the Kelvin-verse timeline. Reconciling how one time travel event creates a butterfly effect and the other doesn't is problematic for canon. There's also the Temporal Prime Directive and Temporal Wars which do not answer why so many temporal incursions by Starfleet officers such as Kirk, Picard, Janeway and Sisko were permitted. I would like to see the root causality of what created the Borg and the Mirror universe, but every time Trek gets close to the answer the point of origin seems to move in canon.
I like your idea. And I think it's really solid. Unfortunately the character of Michael Burnham is the biggest "Mary Sue" of this generation. I'm not sure I could stomach anymore of her hushed speeches. Lol!
Love the video. The only issue I have is that if the timeline was changed by Star Trek First Contact, how would anyone in the other Star Trek TV shows realize this and thus there's no reason for them to think that there's anything to fix.
Star Trek 5 established that Spock has family he doesn't talk about. For me the fun changes to reconcile are what's going on with the Klingons. A Romulan mining craft doesn't explain the Klingons we saw in Into Darkness and a revived Borg doesn't explain the Disco Klingons. Worf is still Worf in Picard. So we're the other Klingons failed attempts to remove the Augment adaptations from Enterprise or an isolated off shoot of Klingons who had such an extreme ethnic look that they didn't get infected by it?
It would make sense that every series after First Contact like Discovery, Strange New Worlds, etc are in Star Trek Canon while being in a changed timeline thus explaining the SNW Enterprise appearing in PIC S1 and the Fleet Museum showing the TOS Enterprise in S3. Those who say Discovery or SNW isn't Canon, it is now if you connect the dots because it all makes sense. Even if the producers say it's prime timeline, they are right in a way. It'd be like the Star Trek version of Marvel's multiverse.
I don't really like the idea of splitting it up into all kinds of connected but separate timelines. Yes, we know the multiverse is real since TNG. So every variant possible does exist, but I still prefer to see all of the "prime timeline" as one timeline, one primary continuity. Otherwise it would feel too disconnected and all the bad outcomes corrected by time travel would also still very much exist. Of course, we have some issues there, but the time travel parts can be used to explain them, less in a "this is a separate timeline", but more in a "the prime timeline has been slightly rewritten" way. Kind of making retcons an in-universe-thing. Most of these changes are small, but we did see some examples of them. For instance, when Gabriel Bell's historic face was suddenly the face of Captain Sisko. I see the incident with the Bord during ENT as another example of this. They never identified as the Borg, so later generations (specifically TNG) wouldn't recognize the name. They also said something about their signal reaching the Delta-quadrant sometime in the 24th century. So it is essentially a small change that doesn't affect history much. Small changes like this can explain most canon inconsistencies. However there is one MAJOR change, that was even acknowledged in the episode as such, that is rarely talked about. But it can explain a bigger continuity issue that has existed since the launch of ENT: Why do ENT and later DSC, SNW and also the pre-timeline-split parts of Star Trek 2009 and Star Trek Beyond look so different and so much more modern than TOS? The answer is clear from a production point of view, but in-universe it makes little sense until you factor in a certain VOY two-parter episode. The episode in question is "Future's End" in which Voyager and a 29th century time ship are thrown into the 20th century. Voyager arrives in 1996, while the time ship ends up in the 60s, where it is stolen by Henry Starling. He reverse engineers it's technology and "invents" the micro-computer - something that clearly didn't exist in TOS. Janeway says at one point that the computer revolution of the 20th centuries was never supposed to happen and while they prevent Starling from taking the time ship into the future in order to get more technology, they never undo the computer revolution. Meaning we have a major rewrite of the prime timeline here and one that perfectly explains why ENT, DSC and SNW looked so much more modern than TOS. We simply saw TOS from the perspective before the timeline changed due to Starling's actions. So slight rewrites of the timeline is my go-to-explanation, a multiverse of countless almost identical timelines would make it feel too disconnected and inconsequential. I do love the idea of all the crews and ships coming together though. I feel we were robbed of such a moment in Generations.
I was just about to leave very much the same comment. Futures End is the alteration point. When they were doing the Short Treks, I was hoping they were planning on redoing TOS animated using original audio.
@@davidklande Good call about Future’s End! It would make sense that every time there is any sort of time travel to the past and back - and Trek is riddled with such jaunts - that ripple effects occur and alter the prime timeline (and all other branching timelines too). Hell, the TNG episode Time’s Arrow had the crew travel back to the 1890s and interact with lots of people (Data built a crazy device before electricity was widespread and influenced future author Jack London! Mark Twain is transported to the 24th century and explicitly says that he plans to write about it!). Long story short: this episode HAD to have made crazy changes to the timeline!
I've thought the same thing for many years. You see, I thought about it with Enterprise, mainly because there was never any mention of the NX series ships until after the events of First Contact. When Discovery came out it just made even more sense why things aren't the same, great idea on a crossover event.
That is an interesting proposed theory. I have been watching Star Trek with my son for a fear years and the issue of timelines keeps coming around so we stick to a linear approach, Next Gen - DS9 - Next Gen Movies and just recently started the Kelvin timeline. It's great to take this journey again with him. He's 15. As for collection stuff, I have a number of Next Gen and OG figures from the 90s, including a BORG SPHERE from 1996' First Contact. Also a DS9 model that I built. I also loved Picard and bought it on DVD. Thanks for your video!
They sort of did acknowledged that First Contact changed things in Voyager: Relativity when Seven was discussing Paradoxes and that Starfleet/Federation owes it's existence to the Borg. This gives off the "What if the Borg never went back in time?" question... would the Terran Universe be the prime one as hinted in ENT: The Mirror, Darkly; or without the Borg at First Contact would humans be more like the Confederation from ST Picard season 2?
This is a fun thought. And has good standing behind it...but How about gee. Idk. Disco and SNW being in the prime timeline, and those who complain about how it looks can just suck it up, cause it's not an alternate timeline. It is apart of the Canon. It looks different cause we have progressed 50 years in CGI, and different visions have come. Grow up. Just cause you don't like how something looks, does not mean you should dismiss it into another timeline. It's ridiculous. (Refering to "you" as in "the ones who dislike the look of new shows)
I'm fine with Star Trek Nemesis being chucked in the dumpster. The only good part about that movie was Riker and Troi getting married, despite being broken up since season three. Just lump their marriage into Insurrection and it's a serviceable send off.
@@captmurdock If you’re going to throw out Trek after a certain point, that line needs to be drawn before Nemesis, that movie is hot flaming garbage. Started out with some very interesting ideas but spiraled out of control and crashed. Hard.
@jasonaich8071 I'm not a fan of it, either. However, some people say the same thing about Insurrection, and I love that one. (Though I wish they had done the original ending).
IMHO major timeline changes are few and far between, and more or less in the order the various series began. TOS, TNG, and DS9 are set in the Prime timeline. VOY:"Future's End" alters the timeline: the computer revolution is not supposed to have happened. All future technology in series beginning after this point is now more advanced, including Archer's Enterprise. The Borg incursion in STVIII:"First Contact" alters the timeline again: after ENT:"Regeneration" the technology is presumably reverse-engineered, allowing for Discovery, Pike's Enterprise and the Kelvin-timeline Enterprise to be more technologically advanced than the TOS-era Enterprise was.
7:53 The main character in “Avengers: Infinity War" was Thanos. He is the character that all the other characters are reacting to. Thanos is collecting the Infinity Stones and everyone else is trying to stop him and the fail. Thanos could almost be seems as Indiana Jones on a hunt for artifacts and the Avengers as the ones that try to stop him.
My theory was similar to yours, although I conceived of my theory 10 years ago, predatied ST: Discovery. My theory stemmed in how First Contact resulted in the Kelvin timeline.
Sorry but Star Trek Picard was essentially the Titans series for Star Trek. Characters we knew but were absolutely butchered with horrible stories and so many unlikeable new characters.
Agreed but season 3 was great working with the damage that was done with std snw and Picard 1-2 I’m sorry bringing back the enterprise D fixes the mistakes of generations
@@invictus2578 Season 3 had some standout episodes. But it was also a bit of a middle finger because it's like, here is what Picard could have been with Ro, Geordi, etc. and instead we get Raf?
The major flaw in your theory is that when enterprise returned to the present they didn’t notice any issue. Are u saying that even there actions created another splinter time line ? If so wouldn’t the enterprise return to the altered future; like explained in back to the future? I love the theory overall but the fact the enterprise returned to an unchanged past makes it unlikely. Personally, I always found it absurd that the events of first contact and regeneration didn’t affect the time line but we don’t know for sure that the events from first contsct didnt happen the very first time either; time gets wobbly
There are a few things, the main thing could be when they returned to the future they assimilated with the slightly altered timeline and did not know things changed. That’s the part where these are movies and they can make stuff up… but as hard core fans within reason haha
@ I could go with that logic but I can’t think of a single time someone traveling to a different time affected their memory. Also if that is true I would have expected the same to occur when sisko went back to the future. How would u account for their memories not affected at all being involved in that scenario. Honest question, can u think of any time ever in Star Trek where memories changes like u suggest? I can’t think of any but many where their memories aren’t changed. Also remeber when they used orb of time in ds9 and interacted with Kirk. Thoughts?
@@voicefromthedark-t2wthe Enterprise-C got pulled into the future and changed the timeline and everyone’s memory. Only Guinan had some perception of the changes. When the C returned, their memories again changed with Picard not knowing he sent Tasha Yar back with it, which also altered the timeline. Honestly I think the reason Data’s cat, Spot, changes sex so many times during the show, is because of small changes in the timeline rippling through when a starfleet captain goes back in time and their memories got changed.
@ agreed but that didn’t change the minds of the actual travelers; the enterprise c crew. U can’t use the enterprise d becaus they were part of the time change not going through it
In First Contact we see the creation of the timeline in which ENT takes place, with all the changes thereafter. The Enterprise-E returned to the original timeline of TOS-TNG-DS9... and then VOY throws a wrench into the idea since the Borg's presence during FC is mentioned there.
I have had this idea since Ent aired. First Contact split timelines. So the Picard of Picard isn't Picard of TNG. Just like Spock from Disco/JJ isn't the Spock from TOS but Ent.
In my own head-canon, everything after Star Trek: First Contact is in an alternate timeline. It's the only way that I can accept Star Trek: Enterprise. Cochrane was influenced by what he saw when Riker and Geordi showed him the Enterprise-E.
Yes. But how do we fit VOY in this idea. The show takes place in the original TOS-TNG-DS9 timeline, but acknowledges the presence of the Borg during First Contact.
THAT plus the pilot broken bow introduced a FUTURE situation interacting with the past to even further separate the timelines. And I'll go one further without that event the NC 01 is moth balled because the Vulcans didn't think humans were ready. So no future issue going on in 2151 the era of "enterprise" occurs differently. No future guy, no Suliban, no sphere builders. The Timeline was as it was stated in memory alpha in 2000 (if it existed). Now we skip ahead to FC creating the Borg situation and it being handled but with different people. Then we skip further ahead to 29th or 31st century which ever, now we got future guy and them talking to and going to 2151. Since Enterprise takes place after first contacts 2063 there isn't another Timeline to deal with. So now with the Suliban and future guy and Daniel's the Timeline created by Picard and crew is similar to what happened in the Kelvin movies. Which have been mentioned in modern era trek. Discovery and prodigy (I believe via Wesley Crusher). As far as events in this Timeline we have the exact image from VOY episode "relitivity" being used, and I think to show we had yet another change to time. The bridge being destroyed was NOT suppose to happen yet it did, giving us an even further deviation because for La'han it did and for our time cop that came back in SNW episode "Tomorrow tomorrow and tomorrow" it did not. In this we find out that a major event in the other Timeline has not occurred yet, the rise of Kahn. But once he is and his destiny occurs he can still meet kirk in 2265 (or whatever it was in space seed). Because either way he has to go into suspended animation. Just because how we get to kirk is different doesn't necessarily mean the last part won't occur. Then we have the changes to time thanks to Michael Burnhams mom. She did that a lot as the red angel, and then Michael herself doing the similar thing in the season finale of disco S2. And this could explain the absence of Data daughter from mention in Pic S3. When viewed as a soft reboot of star trek, enterprise has open range to do whatever it wants. And since first contact occurred first and gave birth to this Timeline there is no contradiction. First contact Discovery Snw Picard Starfleet Academy And there is also the 1996 time travel experience where we also see star trek accepting change and has a throw back to say goodbye and end our path into prime (the actors from tng ds9 VOY weren't coming back so hey why not just kinda quietly reboot right? Ds9 we see the past as we should from tos era due to having to save kirk from dying on the space station. VOY we see future end where tech was introduced to the past in 1996 where it was not once was. Then first contact where we see yet again another deviation. But these could play into a single narrative. And we could be on a new journey if we allow it and realize that the canon of star trek is like a choose your own adventure book. Where you can stay prime or go to enterprise or go to Kelvin or all of the above. Similar to the Nexus of "Generations". Guinan explained that to kirk he just arrived. But this is after Picard was active there for minutes understanding his situation. But when he walked over to Kirk he talked as if he literally just got there rather than being there for who knows how long (78 years). Fact is during the episode of Relics in TNG the events of the Enterprise B occurred differently for not having the Nexus. Kirk lived a full life. And Scotty was aware of this. Hence him saying what he did when they rescued him. Now skip ahead to Generations and the Nexus is going through the area.. It's going through all areas of time at the same time. So now the B interacts with it and kirk goes into for Picard to run into. Skip ahead to "Relics" Scotty would say instead "if kirk would have lived, he would have..."
I wouldn't say this is a particularly ground breaking theory. Anyone who watched through Prime Trek was absolutely aware of the timeline shifting like the course of a river, slowly over time as real life timeline shifted. You see Star Trek was always intended to represent our Reality's future. So we see the 1960's to 2001 timeline shift from TOS to Enterprise. I think most people's problem with Kurtzman Trek is that they're gaslighting the fanbase saying it's the same continuity as Prime Trek. There's some pretty divergent stuff and there are multiple times they broken that continuity. If they had acknowledged it as a separate continuity, I don't think anyone would give to flips. But that has it's own issues, because they have to hitch their wagon to what came before to try and pull the existing fanbase into their slop so it remains viable. It's obviously not working out too well for them. No one really had a problem accepting the Kelvin Timeline, because we knew it was distinct and separate, Parmount said so from the get go. Hopefully now that Skydance is aquiring Paramount, Kurtzman's days are number. It sounds like the new owners really don't like him, and don't want to ever work with him in the future.
I like this concept and would love to see it implemented. But I really don't see how it would tie things together any more than the concept of alternate timelines already does. At best it would just show that modern trek is another alternate universe, which it pretty much already is without acknowledging that it is.
@@scottnolan2833 Agreed. Prime Star Trek was progressive and liberal in the classical sense. No argument. But, it was from a different era practically and it definitely does not equate to "woke" in the modern sense. But DISCO was hot garbage and I'm convinced Picard Season 1 and 2 was a Patrick Stewart vanity project and a last hurrah before he shuffles off to the retirement home. SNW is not eggregious, though it's not a slam dunk. I will say it has some potential, but I'm waiting till Season 3 to make up my mind on it. They could absolutely torpedo it with the coming season. Season 3 Picard though was the chefs kiss!
The problem with your ambitious idea is Paramount and Alex Kurtzman. Don't forget that it was Terry Matalis that got Trek fans hopeful again via Picard season 3. Paramount has now let him go and Kurtzman is back to spewing third rate Trek
For sure, but I stand by I think season 3 of Picard is probably the only modern trek show that sold a lot of merchandising. They really need to cater to the fans in order to make money. Trek is a crazy expensive show, but it’s also kind of niche. This whole thing about we are going to make what we want and the fans will come because it’s Star Trek clearly doesn’t work. Season 3 of Picard proved that.
@@NerdyFilmmaker Paramount thinks Alex is going to catch "lightning in a bottle" like Gene did with TOS & TNG by flinging out new crews & ships and hoping something sticks. Legacy had a lot of things going for it but that ship has sailed thanks to Paramount not green lighting it. The studio just wants to churn out more spaghetti to throw with little regard for the older fans
@@Teh_Goat Hopefully Kurtzman is out the door with the Skydance aquistition and reports they're not happy with nor do they wish to ever work with him. We'll have to wait and see next year.
Kurzman Trek is not canon. It is just very lazy story telling and the m. finger to fans. They just violate everything regarding canon and chuck of everything wrong with dumb explanations. They should cancel this stuff and let talented fans handle it. It feels more like a wet dream of woke that no fan should except that. Picard Season 3 was too little too late.
I mean in my head canon the Disco timeline is separate from Prime and Kelvin. I know that's not "canon" but it's the only way I can logically grapple with it. I enjoy the show (and am happy it spun off SNW), but the tech looking too different is a bit much (I know, it's not 1966, but at least Enterprise tried).
While I love this idea… with all due respect, longtime fans such as myself (since the 1970s) don't care THAT much about canon deviations. There have ALWAYS been some degree of canon deviation from series to series and movie to movie etc. Often times it's explained in a later story/series. The problem we have is that everything since 2005 has been garbage writing. It has been total and purposeful disrespect. It's been reimagined for "modern audiences" using "the message" driven indoctrination stories. Before 2005 it was an optimistic view of the future that appealed to everyone. Since then, they've TOTALLY lost the plot. Everything is pessimistic and nihilistic. Yes it's all flashy and exciting but so is a polished turd. I think on some level you know this as your specifically qualify your love for Picard as "Picard S3". There is nothing that can ever fix this unless they actually use your idea. They make a movie or a series where they go back in time to the just after the events of First Contact, and remove the Borg debris. They RESTORE the original timeline and erase the last 20 years. Then they can return to making Star Trek the promise of a bright and hopeful future for humanity like it was for 39yrs. But that will never happen. "No, there comes a time when a man finds that he can't fall in love again… Computer, shut this bloody thing off."
Hmm. Still doesn't explain the Eugenics Wars of 1993 - 1996. I hate Nu-Trek but SNW already fixed this. Discovery, SNW and Picard are all set in an altered universe very similar but different from established canon. Tomorrow, Tomorrow and Tomorrow explained it.
I watched the last season of ToS air, the movies premier (met with Doohan in Tacoma for the premiere of The Motion Picture because he was visiting his daughter who lived in Lakewood). Excitedly watched the lackluster premiere of TNG and then saw it mature to greatness. Enjoyed DS9 even while acknowledging it was largely adrift without anyone at the helm. Love Voyager, even the aborted ending (several of them). But then the Kelvin timeline premiered, and full fledged identity politics arrived. It got worse and worse with Discovery, and then the premiere of Pickard, turning my most beloved captain into a bumbling, apologetic loser (shear fucking hubris). Lower Decks actually brought me back, and I'm sort of enjoying SNW. Sort of. My point is they changed it on purpose, largely for an audience who was never trekers, and never will be. And that was stupid. I can see what they're doing with SNW, acknowledging that the timeline has changed, but it's just trying to explain poor writing and rewrites for 'modern audiences', and I'm not impressed.
I think classic ST fans take issue with new ST story telling. It hasn't been true to trek. ST Strange New Worlds is the only new show that tells traditional Trek like stories.
This isn't a new theory. Others have suggested it. However, this along with the Temporal Wars changing when the Eugenic Wars occurred, could explain the changes.
Its not just the timeline. That is a big part of it. But its how the stories are told.
I’ve often thought the same thing. Even Cochrane’s glimpses of the Enterprise-E could have easily influenced early starship design. Saucers and swept back nacelles appear earlier, superseding stuff like Daedalus.
My thoughts exactly
They address this in Star Trek: Strange New Worlds. They acknowledge that the timeline has been changed-- a Romulan Time agent trying to kill a young Khan in the 21st century mentions that Khan was originally born in the '90's but the timeline was altered.
The way I interpreted this was that the Original Series, ST:TNG, DS9 and Voyager are the "original" unaltered timeline. then that timeline enters the 25th centure and the temporal wars break out, with both sides editing the timeline, and we end up with Discovery/SNW/Picard (including Picard because an episode shows the SNW Enterprise, and the future lives of the crew have diverged from what was projected at the end of the series).
The timeline changed the instant TOS went back in time in the first season. It kept changing every time there was time travel.
That and retcons are inevitable, but sci fi gives you the excuse to use it as a plot point.
I was Trek fan, even Captained a fab club, back im the 90s. We recognized 3 distinct types of Star Trek fans: Trekkers who just watch the shows and like them; Trekkies who've watched everything, know the trivia, buy some merch, and have been to a convention or two; and Trekologists who've read the books, buy the actual props from the shows, travel to conventions out of state, and make the fan-films. Even back then, we made them on camcorders and showed them to our fan clubs instead of posting them on UA-cam, but we absolutely had fan films.
I remember staying up to see UPN launching from TV/Channel 33 in Miami to see Star Trek Voyager.
I was living in Gainesville at the time, I always loved staying up when I could
I've had a similar thought since Enterprise. My head canon was always that everything shown after First Contact was a sort of shifted timeline. At first everything seemed the same (DS9, Voyager mostly), but as the series/time went on there's a sort of ripple effect changing things (Enterprise). Then you get further away and things have really shifted to the point that there's visual differences. (Discovery, SNW, The Disco Enterprise showing up as a hologram in PIC Season 1). It's not a perfect theory, but it works well enough for me. Your mileage may vary, etc.
One of my favorite fan theories involves that scene in First Contact where the Enterprise crew prove to Cochran that they’re from the future by showing him the Enterprise E through a telescope. Seeing it shocked him in the movie. We later learned in Star Trek: Enterprise that Cochran worked on future starships for decades, including the warp 5 engine for the NX-01. Seeing the E through that telescope may have influenced his design choices for a starship - nacelles angled upwards above a saucer shaped ship - and that changed how starships were designed way earlier than they would have naturally evolved. This explains why the NX-01 looks “too advanced”, why Pike’s Enterprise has swept back nacelles before the refit design of the movies, etc.
It’s a simple theory but also makes a ton of sense 🖖
Except both Discovery and Picard featured the original TOS design of the Constitution class.
@ The Enterprise in Discovery had swept back pylons and other changes in the S1 finale and throughout S2 - was the TOS classic design featured in Discovery too?
Initially, the Enterprise was designed for Discovery to have extra add-ons that could be stripped away before Kirk took it for TOS, but apparently the CG artists completely changed the designed engine pylons to look more like the movie refit pylons. They attach to the engineering hull in a completely different spot than the TOS design, which means the internals like the warp core are also completely reconfigured.
All that being said… the Disco-Prise or Strange New Worlds Enterprise is probably my favorite design of the ship so I’m glad it appeared the way that it did 😁
@@jasonaich8071 I love the Disco/SNW version as well and yes, the original TOS design appeared in the Season 2 episode ''If Memory Serves''.
The real problem now is Star Trek has embraced a divergent paradox resolution to time travel. On one side you have the causality problem posed by the temporal contamination of the Borg and on the other you have the fractured multiverse resolution of causality posed by the Kelvin-verse timeline. Reconciling how one time travel event creates a butterfly effect and the other doesn't is problematic for canon. There's also the Temporal Prime Directive and Temporal Wars which do not answer why so many temporal incursions by Starfleet officers such as Kirk, Picard, Janeway and Sisko were permitted. I would like to see the root causality of what created the Borg and the Mirror universe, but every time Trek gets close to the answer the point of origin seems to move in canon.
I like your idea. And I think it's really solid. Unfortunately the character of Michael Burnham is the biggest "Mary Sue" of this generation. I'm not sure I could stomach anymore of her hushed speeches. Lol!
Love the video. The only issue I have is that if the timeline was changed by Star Trek First Contact, how would anyone in the other Star Trek TV shows realize this and thus there's no reason for them to think that there's anything to fix.
Star Trek 5 established that Spock has family he doesn't talk about. For me the fun changes to reconcile are what's going on with the Klingons. A Romulan mining craft doesn't explain the Klingons we saw in Into Darkness and a revived Borg doesn't explain the Disco Klingons. Worf is still Worf in Picard. So we're the other Klingons failed attempts to remove the Augment adaptations from Enterprise or an isolated off shoot of Klingons who had such an extreme ethnic look that they didn't get infected by it?
It would make sense that every series after First Contact like Discovery, Strange New Worlds, etc are in Star Trek Canon while being in a changed timeline thus explaining the SNW Enterprise appearing in PIC S1 and the Fleet Museum showing the TOS Enterprise in S3. Those who say Discovery or SNW isn't Canon, it is now if you connect the dots because it all makes sense. Even if the producers say it's prime timeline, they are right in a way. It'd be like the Star Trek version of Marvel's multiverse.
I don't really like the idea of splitting it up into all kinds of connected but separate timelines. Yes, we know the multiverse is real since TNG. So every variant possible does exist, but I still prefer to see all of the "prime timeline" as one timeline, one primary continuity. Otherwise it would feel too disconnected and all the bad outcomes corrected by time travel would also still very much exist. Of course, we have some issues there, but the time travel parts can be used to explain them, less in a "this is a separate timeline", but more in a "the prime timeline has been slightly rewritten" way. Kind of making retcons an in-universe-thing.
Most of these changes are small, but we did see some examples of them. For instance, when Gabriel Bell's historic face was suddenly the face of Captain Sisko. I see the incident with the Bord during ENT as another example of this. They never identified as the Borg, so later generations (specifically TNG) wouldn't recognize the name. They also said something about their signal reaching the Delta-quadrant sometime in the 24th century. So it is essentially a small change that doesn't affect history much.
Small changes like this can explain most canon inconsistencies.
However there is one MAJOR change, that was even acknowledged in the episode as such, that is rarely talked about. But it can explain a bigger continuity issue that has existed since the launch of ENT: Why do ENT and later DSC, SNW and also the pre-timeline-split parts of Star Trek 2009 and Star Trek Beyond look so different and so much more modern than TOS? The answer is clear from a production point of view, but in-universe it makes little sense until you factor in a certain VOY two-parter episode.
The episode in question is "Future's End" in which Voyager and a 29th century time ship are thrown into the 20th century. Voyager arrives in 1996, while the time ship ends up in the 60s, where it is stolen by Henry Starling. He reverse engineers it's technology and "invents" the micro-computer - something that clearly didn't exist in TOS. Janeway says at one point that the computer revolution of the 20th centuries was never supposed to happen and while they prevent Starling from taking the time ship into the future in order to get more technology, they never undo the computer revolution. Meaning we have a major rewrite of the prime timeline here and one that perfectly explains why ENT, DSC and SNW looked so much more modern than TOS. We simply saw TOS from the perspective before the timeline changed due to Starling's actions.
So slight rewrites of the timeline is my go-to-explanation, a multiverse of countless almost identical timelines would make it feel too disconnected and inconsequential.
I do love the idea of all the crews and ships coming together though. I feel we were robbed of such a moment in Generations.
I was just about to leave very much the same comment. Futures End is the alteration point.
When they were doing the Short Treks, I was hoping they were planning on redoing TOS animated using original audio.
@@davidklande Good call about Future’s End! It would make sense that every time there is any sort of time travel to the past and back - and Trek is riddled with such jaunts - that ripple effects occur and alter the prime timeline (and all other branching timelines too).
Hell, the TNG episode Time’s Arrow had the crew travel back to the 1890s and interact with lots of people (Data built a crazy device before electricity was widespread and influenced future author Jack London! Mark Twain is transported to the 24th century and explicitly says that he plans to write about it!). Long story short: this episode HAD to have made crazy changes to the timeline!
I've thought the same thing for many years. You see, I thought about it with Enterprise, mainly because there was never any mention of the NX series ships until after the events of First Contact. When Discovery came out it just made even more sense why things aren't the same, great idea on a crossover event.
Yes. I have had this idea since Ent came out.
That is an interesting proposed theory. I have been watching Star Trek with my son for a fear years and the issue of timelines keeps coming around so we stick to a linear approach, Next Gen - DS9 - Next Gen Movies and just recently started the Kelvin timeline. It's great to take this journey again with him. He's 15. As for collection stuff, I have a number of Next Gen and OG figures from the 90s, including a BORG SPHERE from 1996' First Contact. Also a DS9 model that I built. I also loved Picard and bought it on DVD. Thanks for your video!
If you didn't change a Canon Event, The timeliness corrected itself
They sort of did acknowledged that First Contact changed things in Voyager: Relativity when Seven was discussing Paradoxes and that Starfleet/Federation owes it's existence to the Borg. This gives off the "What if the Borg never went back in time?" question... would the Terran Universe be the prime one as hinted in ENT: The Mirror, Darkly; or without the Borg at First Contact would humans be more like the Confederation from ST Picard season 2?
The Titan-A, Neo-Constitution class was a sweet ship.
the voyager episode relativity ruins your theory, when 7 of 9 is asked for an example of a pogo paradox she uses the events of first contact.
its possible! but I wouldn't dismiss it just based on that
This is a fun thought. And has good standing behind it...but
How about gee. Idk. Disco and SNW being in the prime timeline, and those who complain about how it looks can just suck it up, cause it's not an alternate timeline. It is apart of the Canon. It looks different cause we have progressed 50 years in CGI, and different visions have come. Grow up. Just cause you don't like how something looks, does not mean you should dismiss it into another timeline. It's ridiculous.
(Refering to "you" as in "the ones who dislike the look of new shows)
I have a much simpler method of "fixing" the timeline: everything after Nemesis is simply not Star Trek.
just treat it as a splinter reality, same as Discovery, and close it.
I'm fine with Star Trek Nemesis being chucked in the dumpster. The only good part about that movie was Riker and Troi getting married, despite being broken up since season three.
Just lump their marriage into Insurrection and it's a serviceable send off.
Or it’s not Canon. It can simply be an alternate/parallel universe Star Trek.
@@captmurdock If you’re going to throw out Trek after a certain point, that line needs to be drawn before Nemesis, that movie is hot flaming garbage. Started out with some very interesting ideas but spiraled out of control and crashed. Hard.
@jasonaich8071 I'm not a fan of it, either. However, some people say the same thing about Insurrection, and I love that one. (Though I wish they had done the original ending).
IMHO major timeline changes are few and far between, and more or less in the order the various series began.
TOS, TNG, and DS9 are set in the Prime timeline.
VOY:"Future's End" alters the timeline: the computer revolution is not supposed to have happened. All future technology in series beginning after this point is now more advanced, including Archer's Enterprise.
The Borg incursion in STVIII:"First Contact" alters the timeline again: after ENT:"Regeneration" the technology is presumably reverse-engineered, allowing for Discovery, Pike's Enterprise and the Kelvin-timeline Enterprise to be more technologically advanced than the TOS-era Enterprise was.
7:53 The main character in “Avengers: Infinity War" was Thanos. He is the character that all the other characters are reacting to. Thanos is collecting the Infinity Stones and everyone else is trying to stop him and the fail. Thanos could almost be seems as Indiana Jones on a hunt for artifacts and the Avengers as the ones that try to stop him.
My theory was similar to yours, although I conceived of my theory 10 years ago, predatied ST: Discovery. My theory stemmed in how First Contact resulted in the Kelvin timeline.
I’ve said this from the beginning. The timeline was altered after first contact!!
That's not happening because save William Shatner, Walter Keonig, and George Takai, the original cast is dead. Which means that crossover is DoA.
Sorry but Star Trek Picard was essentially the Titans series for Star Trek. Characters we knew but were absolutely butchered with horrible stories and so many unlikeable new characters.
Agreed but season 3 was great working with the damage that was done with std snw and Picard 1-2 I’m sorry bringing back the enterprise D fixes the mistakes of generations
@@invictus2578 Season 3 had some standout episodes. But it was also a bit of a middle finger because it's like, here is what Picard could have been with Ro, Geordi, etc. and instead we get Raf?
@ and the enterprise G that wasn’t right so agree to disagree
The major flaw in your theory is that when enterprise returned to the present they didn’t notice any issue. Are u saying that even there actions created another splinter time line ? If so wouldn’t the enterprise return to the altered future; like explained in back to the future?
I love the theory overall but the fact the enterprise returned to an unchanged past makes it unlikely.
Personally, I always found it absurd that the events of first contact and regeneration didn’t affect the time line but we don’t know for sure that the events from first contsct didnt happen the very first time either; time gets wobbly
There are a few things, the main thing could be when they returned to the future they assimilated with the slightly altered timeline and did not know things changed. That’s the part where these are movies and they can make stuff up… but as hard core fans within reason haha
@ I could go with that logic but I can’t think of a single time someone traveling to a different time affected their memory. Also if that is true I would have expected the same to occur when sisko went back to the future. How would u account for their memories not affected at all being involved in that scenario.
Honest question, can u think of any time ever in Star Trek where memories changes like u suggest? I can’t think of any but many where their memories aren’t changed. Also remeber when they used orb of time in ds9 and interacted with Kirk.
Thoughts?
@@voicefromthedark-t2wthe Enterprise-C got pulled into the future and changed the timeline and everyone’s memory. Only Guinan had some perception of the changes. When the C returned, their memories again changed with Picard not knowing he sent Tasha Yar back with it, which also altered the timeline. Honestly I think the reason Data’s cat, Spot, changes sex so many times during the show, is because of small changes in the timeline rippling through when a starfleet captain goes back in time and their memories got changed.
@ agreed but that didn’t change the minds of the actual travelers; the enterprise c crew. U can’t use the enterprise d becaus they were part of the time change not going through it
In First Contact we see the creation of the timeline in which ENT takes place, with all the changes thereafter.
The Enterprise-E returned to the original timeline of TOS-TNG-DS9... and then VOY throws a wrench into the idea since the Borg's presence during FC is mentioned there.
Maybe the Emissary of the Prophets Benjamin Sisko Brings Everyone together to Solve this Time Anomaly.
I have had this idea since Ent aired.
First Contact split timelines. So the Picard of Picard isn't Picard of TNG. Just like Spock from Disco/JJ isn't the Spock from TOS but Ent.
lower decks?
I do like lower decks but I was more referring to the live action shows in this piece
In my own head-canon, everything after Star Trek: First Contact is in an alternate timeline. It's the only way that I can accept Star Trek: Enterprise. Cochrane was influenced by what he saw when Riker and Geordi showed him the Enterprise-E.
Yes. But how do we fit VOY in this idea. The show takes place in the original TOS-TNG-DS9 timeline, but acknowledges the presence of the Borg during First Contact.
So yes ST 8 First Contact chanced the timeline
THAT plus the pilot broken bow introduced a FUTURE situation interacting with the past to even further separate the timelines. And I'll go one further without that event the NC 01 is moth balled because the Vulcans didn't think humans were ready. So no future issue going on in 2151 the era of "enterprise" occurs differently. No future guy, no Suliban, no sphere builders. The Timeline was as it was stated in memory alpha in 2000 (if it existed). Now we skip ahead to FC creating the Borg situation and it being handled but with different people. Then we skip further ahead to 29th or 31st century which ever, now we got future guy and them talking to and going to 2151. Since Enterprise takes place after first contacts 2063 there isn't another Timeline to deal with. So now with the Suliban and future guy and Daniel's the Timeline created by Picard and crew is similar to what happened in the Kelvin movies. Which have been mentioned in modern era trek. Discovery and prodigy (I believe via Wesley Crusher). As far as events in this Timeline we have the exact image from VOY episode "relitivity" being used, and I think to show we had yet another change to time. The bridge being destroyed was NOT suppose to happen yet it did, giving us an even further deviation because for La'han it did and for our time cop that came back in SNW episode "Tomorrow tomorrow and tomorrow" it did not. In this we find out that a major event in the other Timeline has not occurred yet, the rise of Kahn. But once he is and his destiny occurs he can still meet kirk in 2265 (or whatever it was in space seed). Because either way he has to go into suspended animation. Just because how we get to kirk is different doesn't necessarily mean the last part won't occur. Then we have the changes to time thanks to Michael Burnhams mom. She did that a lot as the red angel, and then Michael herself doing the similar thing in the season finale of disco S2. And this could explain the absence of Data daughter from mention in Pic S3. When viewed as a soft reboot of star trek, enterprise has open range to do whatever it wants. And since first contact occurred first and gave birth to this Timeline there is no contradiction.
First contact
Discovery
Snw
Picard
Starfleet Academy
And there is also the 1996 time travel experience where we also see star trek accepting change and has a throw back to say goodbye and end our path into prime (the actors from tng ds9 VOY weren't coming back so hey why not just kinda quietly reboot right?
Ds9 we see the past as we should from tos era due to having to save kirk from dying on the space station.
VOY we see future end where tech was introduced to the past in 1996 where it was not once was.
Then first contact where we see yet again another deviation.
But these could play into a single narrative.
And we could be on a new journey if we allow it and realize that the canon of star trek is like a choose your own adventure book. Where you can stay prime or go to enterprise or go to Kelvin or all of the above.
Similar to the Nexus of "Generations". Guinan explained that to kirk he just arrived. But this is after Picard was active there for minutes understanding his situation. But when he walked over to Kirk he talked as if he literally just got there rather than being there for who knows how long (78 years). Fact is during the episode of Relics in TNG the events of the Enterprise B occurred differently for not having the Nexus. Kirk lived a full life. And Scotty was aware of this. Hence him saying what he did when they rescued him. Now skip ahead to Generations and the Nexus is going through the area.. It's going through all areas of time at the same time. So now the B interacts with it and kirk goes into for Picard to run into. Skip ahead to "Relics" Scotty would say instead "if kirk would have lived, he would have..."
For sure, I even had thoughts that first contact could have changed the timeline inadvertently making the temporal war happen.
fans dont like new ST shows because they want classic ST style story telling. diplomacy talks etc.
Then they should pay attention to the new shows, because they're full of diplomacy talks.
Nice try but std snw and Picard season 1-2 are completely trash and should be expunged from the canon
I wouldn't say this is a particularly ground breaking theory. Anyone who watched through Prime Trek was absolutely aware of the timeline shifting like the course of a river, slowly over time as real life timeline shifted. You see Star Trek was always intended to represent our Reality's future. So we see the 1960's to 2001 timeline shift from TOS to Enterprise.
I think most people's problem with Kurtzman Trek is that they're gaslighting the fanbase saying it's the same continuity as Prime Trek. There's some pretty divergent stuff and there are multiple times they broken that continuity. If they had acknowledged it as a separate continuity, I don't think anyone would give to flips. But that has it's own issues, because they have to hitch their wagon to what came before to try and pull the existing fanbase into their slop so it remains viable. It's obviously not working out too well for them. No one really had a problem accepting the Kelvin Timeline, because we knew it was distinct and separate, Parmount said so from the get go.
Hopefully now that Skydance is aquiring Paramount, Kurtzman's days are number. It sounds like the new owners really don't like him, and don't want to ever work with him in the future.
I like this concept and would love to see it implemented. But I really don't see how it would tie things together any more than the concept of alternate timelines already does. At best it would just show that modern trek is another alternate universe, which it pretty much already is without acknowledging that it is.
There is nothing that could ever reconcile me to Woke-Trek. May it all burn and trouble us no more.
You haven’t even watched it, have you.
Also, FYI, Star Trek was ALWAYS woke.
Amen!@@Shadowkey392
@ I watched all of Discovery Season 1 and SNW season 1. And you’re confusing Liberal with woke. They ain’t the same.
@@scottnolan2833 Agreed. Prime Star Trek was progressive and liberal in the classical sense. No argument. But, it was from a different era practically and it definitely does not equate to "woke" in the modern sense.
But DISCO was hot garbage and I'm convinced Picard Season 1 and 2 was a Patrick Stewart vanity project and a last hurrah before he shuffles off to the retirement home.
SNW is not eggregious, though it's not a slam dunk. I will say it has some potential, but I'm waiting till Season 3 to make up my mind on it. They could absolutely torpedo it with the coming season. Season 3 Picard though was the chefs kiss!
The problem with your ambitious idea is Paramount and Alex Kurtzman.
Don't forget that it was Terry Matalis that got Trek fans hopeful again via Picard season 3. Paramount has now let him go and Kurtzman is back to spewing third rate Trek
For sure, but I stand by I think season 3 of Picard is probably the only modern trek show that sold a lot of merchandising. They really need to cater to the fans in order to make money. Trek is a crazy expensive show, but it’s also kind of niche. This whole thing about we are going to make what we want and the fans will come because it’s Star Trek clearly doesn’t work. Season 3 of Picard proved that.
@@NerdyFilmmaker Paramount thinks Alex is going to catch "lightning in a bottle" like Gene did with TOS & TNG by flinging out new crews & ships and hoping something sticks. Legacy had a lot of things going for it but that ship has sailed thanks to Paramount not green lighting it. The studio just wants to churn out more spaghetti to throw with little regard for the older fans
@@Teh_Goat Hopefully Kurtzman is out the door with the Skydance aquistition and reports they're not happy with nor do they wish to ever work with him. We'll have to wait and see next year.
Bro just spent 10 minutes explaining why imposter shows that were never really part of ST can somehow be shoehorned into ST.
Kurzman Trek is not canon. It is just very lazy story telling and the m. finger to fans. They just violate everything regarding canon and chuck of everything wrong with dumb explanations.
They should cancel this stuff and let talented fans handle it. It feels more like a wet dream of woke that no fan should except that. Picard Season 3 was too little too late.
I am all onboard with First Contact changing the timeline. How could it not?
Predestination paradox. It was always supposed to happen that way. We just didn't know it.
I mean in my head canon the Disco timeline is separate from Prime and Kelvin. I know that's not "canon" but it's the only way I can logically grapple with it. I enjoy the show (and am happy it spun off SNW), but the tech looking too different is a bit much (I know, it's not 1966, but at least Enterprise tried).
While I love this idea… with all due respect, longtime fans such as myself (since the 1970s) don't care THAT much about canon deviations. There have ALWAYS been some degree of canon deviation from series to series and movie to movie etc. Often times it's explained in a later story/series. The problem we have is that everything since 2005 has been garbage writing. It has been total and purposeful disrespect. It's been reimagined for "modern audiences" using "the message" driven indoctrination stories. Before 2005 it was an optimistic view of the future that appealed to everyone. Since then, they've TOTALLY lost the plot. Everything is pessimistic and nihilistic. Yes it's all flashy and exciting but so is a polished turd. I think on some level you know this as your specifically qualify your love for Picard as "Picard S3".
There is nothing that can ever fix this unless they actually use your idea. They make a movie or a series where they go back in time to the just after the events of First Contact, and remove the Borg debris. They RESTORE the original timeline and erase the last 20 years. Then they can return to making Star Trek the promise of a bright and hopeful future for humanity like it was for 39yrs. But that will never happen.
"No, there comes a time when a man finds that he can't fall in love again… Computer, shut this bloody thing off."
Hmm.
Still doesn't explain the Eugenics Wars of 1993 - 1996. I hate Nu-Trek but SNW already fixed this. Discovery, SNW and Picard are all set in an altered universe very similar but different from established canon. Tomorrow, Tomorrow and Tomorrow explained it.
I watched the last season of ToS air, the movies premier (met with Doohan in Tacoma for the premiere of The Motion Picture because he was visiting his daughter who lived in Lakewood). Excitedly watched the lackluster premiere of TNG and then saw it mature to greatness. Enjoyed DS9 even while acknowledging it was largely adrift without anyone at the helm. Love Voyager, even the aborted ending (several of them). But then the Kelvin timeline premiered, and full fledged identity politics arrived. It got worse and worse with Discovery, and then the premiere of Pickard, turning my most beloved captain into a bumbling, apologetic loser (shear fucking hubris). Lower Decks actually brought me back, and I'm sort of enjoying SNW. Sort of.
My point is they changed it on purpose, largely for an audience who was never trekers, and never will be. And that was stupid. I can see what they're doing with SNW, acknowledging that the timeline has changed, but it's just trying to explain poor writing and rewrites for 'modern audiences', and I'm not impressed.
With the "talent" they have now, no thanks
U ripped this idea off nick picking nerd.
So everything after 1996 is not canon.. got it. Because basically we’re in an alternate reality, and not in the prime universe.
I think classic ST fans take issue with new ST story telling. It hasn't been true to trek. ST Strange New Worlds is the only new show that tells traditional Trek like stories.
Wishful thinking. Never gonna happen.
Probably not but one can dream :)
Picard's your favourite??? Well says it all
Spot the person that hasn't watched the third season
When I said Picard, I meant he was my favorite captain
This isn't a new theory. Others have suggested it. However, this along with the Temporal Wars changing when the Eugenic Wars occurred, could explain the changes.