Chasing the POLICE BIKE! Bikesafe course - Boxhill, Ockley, Dorking
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Bikesafe is a police sponsored rider education program. More details here;
bikesafe.co.uk...
Thats the link for the Surrey one, but other forces do them around the country. I can't recommend it enough. For £65 its a baragin. It has three parts;
A set of around 10 videos - Bit dull but you'll learn something
Online workshop - Reinforces what the videos told you
3 hour ride out with a police rider - 10/10 - Great experience
Thank you to Andrew and Ian for a really enjoyable afternoon!
Next step is the Rospa, IAMs (?) or BMF advanced rider education. I'll look into it and give it a go. Its always good to be learning.
#bikesafe
#bikesafety
#advancedriding
#motorbike
#motorcycle
#boxhill
#surrey
#surreyhills
#carpuride
If you've watched this, you might find this one interesting..what happens when riding in a group doesn't go well. Just fast forward to halfway in.
ua-cam.com/video/IiB284DNLn4/v-deo.htmlsi=PunlMQdnMDr37f-1
Great video, Gavin, you can never overstress the importance of road craft when riding a motorbike. I was given a valuable gem, when I first started riding, and it came from a motorcycle cop in Sydney (Australia). He said, "Never let your bike take you where your brain wasn't three seconds earlier".
I can even imagine the accent when he said this. Sydney is beautiful, was there at New Year, done two of the marathons there as well. I have a video about it. Not ridden a bike there but I like the idea.....I'm into long deserted roads!
So good to hear an honest account from a guy who is in the real world. These courses are superb, did one myself 10 years ago.
Wow, thats generous to say! Thank you.
Bikesafe is a good start for sure, I have done some training with Rapid Training with a Police instructor, who just happens to live over the road from me, that was brilliant as a refresher and check. I’ve been riding for 44 years on the road and love it as much today as when I first started.
I bought and learnt Police Roadcraft in 1982. Its def kept me alive once you comply with system. Good position, speed and gear become automatic. Did Ridesafe with South Yorks Police 15 years ago. It was a hoot. Chasing copper on FJ1300. Then he chased us. Fast but safe . Way to go. Well worth a day out. Best attitude is. I learn every day.
Sounds like a fun day!
Great video. I took my test in December 2012 to avoid the new 125cc rules in Jan 2013. I was 55 when i finally took my test as a goal after 3 serious spine surgery’s. I had always loved bikes and road 250cc whenever i got a chance since i got my provisional license at 17 in 1975. Sadly i knew i would end up in a wheelchair as my condition was progressive. Watching videos is the nearest i get to riding these days. This is much more to my licking than the mental cases looking for death! Thanks for a great video. Ps. If i could afford it id have a sidecar outfit with a rear thumb brake but alas that is way beyond my means. Ride safe and keep it shiny side up.😊👍
Wow what a lovely comment and my thoughts and best wishes to you! Have a look at some of my other videos where I potter around the UK and Europe. I have no time for tear arsing around, for me its just a way to get around that is a bit more interesting than driving. At some point I'll swap it for an MX5, but until then I'll be doing more of the same!
Motorcycle RoadCraft is definitely worth a read… A little dry, but a brilliant book.
Thanks. Great Video. I took the IAM Advanced Course/Test some 5 years ago, after the BikeSafe. Really learned a great deal. The only thing I didn't particularly enjoy was the making good progress all the time. I'm not a slow rider by no means, but sometimes you just want to enjoy the ride more than focussing on the destination. Also, on right hand bends, like you mentioned, I wasn't very keen to get too far over to the left where the road surface is sometimes quite degraded and laden with debris. Of course, over the LHS for a better view.
The other was unrestricted lanes (60mph). Always encouraged by my observers to get up to 60mph. Many of these lanes I would normally not go past 45/50 as I consider I wouldn't be able to stop within the distance I see to be clear on my side of the road. After all, 60mph is the max limit.
Completely agree! I am a slow rider, thats down to a lack of natural ability and also technique...hence my interest in doing some further training. And, like you, I felt that the desire to get right upto the limit was a a bit fool hardy. On this course the police rider asked me why I throttled off going around corners, and I said its because I couldn't see what was around them! I really don't fancy ploughing into the back of a dustbin lorry or similar doing 60.
I ride with a friend who is a ROSPA gold rider,he has taught me some good stuff but i also dont want to ride balls out all of the time,i want to enjoy the scenery.
@@ChrisMason-q4w If your mate is in Surrey or down south ask him if he wants to do some private lessons.
The IMA endorse progressive and this is ok if your are police rider but I really feel it’s dangerous for everyone else so I agree totally
I passed with an IAM first and then later a ROSPA gold but never enjoyed any group rides with those groups after passing due to an obsession with making progress all the time. Sunny Sunday mornings riding out alone enjoying the ride does me just fine. Get everywhere relaxed. Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly .
Interesting to see the copper putting his right foot down at junctions. I was taught left foot down right foot on the brake
Someone lower down makes the same comment. I mean, yes you can put your right foot down, but it somehow feels safer to me to have my right foot on the brake.
Its known as the Hendon shuffle after the Police training school. Left foot down, right foot on brake, then right foot down change gear, then back to the original to cover the brake till/during pulling away again.
@@GavCritchleyBMWs have hill hold assist so best to observe camber of road and with legs accordingly
@@PeterFearon-g8q Hill assist is configurable, so you can switch it on and off. I have it off on mine. It takes some getting used to.
There isn't one rule fits all though really is there. Like riding my scooter which foot I put down depends on what's happening around me. If i'm on a duel carriageway with vehicles moving to one side my foot goes down the other. And if i'm in a safe spot with a car stopped behind me or a place where nothing will be able to parse close both feet will go down. Because quite honestly when I'm doing deliveries hours on end having one foot down starts to get exhausting. I'd be interested to hear what the police have to say about filtering. As a delivery driver I prefer to filter stationary traffic at lights. And the place you naturally end up is the bicycle box at the front. It's my opinion you should get in front of the vehicle at the end of filtering not to the side cos some people will leave you in an awkward spot and try to drive you off the road. I doubt the police would ever tell you to do that because it's not technically correct or legal but around here they turn a blind eye to it. Because its safer and it makes sense for so many reasons.
bikesafe is the best course for anyone who rides, they are motorcyclists that are police officers , and all they want is too have better riders
Agree completely. There was no agenda to ‘ride slow’, it was all about riding better and more safe.
I enjoyed that and thank you for sharing. These police bikers are brilliant. It’s the little things I learned: less than 10 mph, use the back brake. Use ALL of the road. And I went from an RT to a K1600 and back to the much lighter RT 🌞
So my mate had a 1250, then went to a K1600. Lovely bike, but if you just get it at the wrong angle in the car park and it'll be an expensive mess. He sold it too. I like the back break under 10mph idea. Best to you Ray!
@@GavCritchley The K1600 is so smooth and the torque is phenomenal. Fantastic for a two up trip around the continent. Best to you too Gavin 🌞
I was lucky enough to learn with an ex-police outrider and the positioning on corners was one of the most used and at times lifesaving tips he ever gave me (had a car overtaking on a blind bend situation). Had I not been doing this Ii would definitely been brown bread
I like the idea that you should always be learning, and even if you just pick up one thing, then that has to be good doesn't it?
Within the first few minutes you have hit upon a scenario and question that needs some explanation. It would appear that the police officer was using wider positionings especially for bends . This needs some comment.
Previously up to Roadcraft 2013 the police manual stated that there were 5 road positionings on our side of the road . More particularly, that position number 1 was close to the verge or kerbside for improved vision whilst taking right hand bends and position number 5 was well over to or on the mid white lines central to the road for increased vision through left handed bends.
So prior to 2013 we were taught all of 5 positions. After that date the new Roadcraft only had 3 positions. Position number 1 was now about the inside tyre line for vehicles and position 3 was the offside position for same. The reason for this was that the police obviously considered the older positions of 1 and 5 to be flawed and perhaps dangerous to teach to us plebs, the general public.
So there we have it. Unfortunately no one told the police that such a change had been made. It appears that they are still being trained to the older 5 positions and that's ok for their purposes. However we should not be trained so and we now just have the 3 positions.
I know that it appeared to be a disparity of riding positions but we do not need to do what the police do in order to gain a visual advantage . We should not be required to place ourselves in a more dangerous position for the speeds that we can ride at.
but there's edge cases to all these things and it's about common sense and being analytical really. A car driving instructor will tell you to position the car more central on a road with cars parked either side and nothing coming. And if you're taking corners and it's a relatively slow road being positioned close to the center for better visibility makes perfect sense. Also it leaves more space between you and a car door which could potentially be opened by an idiot. If you're doing something simply because you were told to do it without being analytical and thinking about the logic behind it then you don't understand it enough to be doing it. But the five positions makes good sense. There's not five positions there's infinite positions and it's all down to circumstances.
I personally keep away from the left hand sides of roads due to the amount of pot holes, Road edges that have collapsed and of course slippery drain covers which can also be raised or sunk. Left hand of roads are a no go for me. That’s just my opinion. I’m no expert just going by my experience on the roads around Essex
That was my observation too. If you are on the very far left (like the cop in this video), you are in the craked edge of the road, ironworks standing proud, gravel and grime.
I guess different (a bit) for motorbikes but a few cyclists have died as a result of hitting sunk drainsor potholes at the edge of the road.
@@thebrowns5337 Awful for cucylists, especially those big potholes you get after winter.
This is my patch around this area, I live in Betchworth. Good to watch
It’s a nice part of the world. I’m over in Peaslake.
This is why I always ride alone apart from with my girlfriend as a pillion, I don't want to follow other bikes and be forced to ride faster than I'm comfortable with aged 60 now ! .. I mainly travel between 50 and 60mph on most roads apart from slower speed limits .. 😊
Oh absolutely. There is another vid of mine where I went on a motorbike tour of Marrakech. I bailed out after the first day because the rest of the folks were zooming off. Made me feel like a snail. Won't do that again.
@@GavCritchley but did you feel safer on your own as a solo rider like I do now I'm 60 ?
@@stevebandit1964 Definitely. Trying to keep up with the other folks (who were your age BTW), was making me ride outside my comfort zone and ability. The ride back to Marrakech by myself was a breeze in comparison. Have a look. ua-cam.com/video/IiB284DNLn4/v-deo.htmlsi=oeBVNQyqtwLsWglK
Road conditions nowadays don't really give me the confidence to make a lot of progress whilst out riding.
I am fortunate to have a group of riding mates that agree you are in charge of your own ride and there is never pressure to keep up.
In general terms the ones following the front of the riding pack are the ones that are going to have to ride faster to keep up with the others. I don't ride in groups for that reason. Also the speed limit is just that a limit not a TARGET
I did my bike safe back in 2003 with D&C. I highly recommend doing this if you haven't already. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.
Back in the early 70s I took my test in Nuneaton. The tester, on foot, told me to do a circuit around the block and that he would step out with his clipboard to simulate a child running out. Poor sod stepped out in front of the wrong bike and was taken to hospital. Unaware of this I continued on for 15 minutes then went back to the testing centre. His colleague passed me quickly and told me to bugger off.
You passed, he failed!
How did it take you 15 minutes to realise you run a man over?
Hey, many years ago I was keen on doing this, because it also helps your premium when you go to insure your bike. Still not pulled the pin in 2024 though!
You should do it. Its useful, even if you just learn one or two things. And I just renewed my insurance and it was on the list of acknowledged courses.
@@GavCritchley I may just do that then. In 2020/21/22 I have done California Superbike School level 1,2 and 3, which I also always wanted to do and that was really good. I ride 20% road and 80% track these days. In 2024 Its really boring riding a big superbike at 20mph
Interesting video. I went on this course a few years ago and I would recommend it but there are certain things which I didn't agree with. Whilst keeping within the speed limits, our instructor was obsessed with "keeping progress". He rode much too fast for my liking. Whilst I also agree with the comment about using the majority of the road and avoiding the "greasy strip" with regard to a left-hand bend, being near the centre is not something which is conducive with long life because that is when you will meet somebody coming the other way who clips the corner and you would hit them head-on. The other thing that we got told off about was putting both feet down at traffic lights or when stopped. I don't think anybody has yet been injured or killed because they put both feet down when they were at a junction or traffic lights.I may be wrong. Otherwise it was well worth it and I did take away some good points. I'm not new to riding motorcycles having written them now for approaching 55 years.
Yes the speed thing comes up in lots of the comments. When I did my bike test, their recommendation was right foot on the back break, left foot down. Then you do this little shuffle before you take off. Itto gear, over the should glance, release the clutch and away. Not a 'rule' and you do whatever you need to do in the situation.
As a RoSPA Gold rider who has also done Bikesafe, it’s really interesting to listen to this from the perspective of someone with no advanced training. I would mention that they’re showing you what THEY do and not everything they do is something to try to emulate. Taking 'Position 6’ to get the view is a lot easier (and safer!) on a fully liveried ‘Battenberg’ bike than it is on yours and in their training, they do three weeks intensive work an that aspect alone!
So whats your advice then if I wanted to do more training, but I really don't want to ride in a group?
@@GavCritchley find your local RoSPA or IAM group. RoSPA training is one-to-one (other than specific - and optional - event days). I'd imagine IAM is similar. The group rides are optional things that happen across the calendar for those that like that sort of thing. It's perhaps a provocative statement (and not intended as such) but over the past two years, I've experienced a very different culture between RoSPA and IAM people. All the IAM guys I've been out with seem in general to be much more 'urgent' in their riding style whereas mine is much closer to how you describe yours. Also a RoSPA Gold is the highest standard available in the civilian world where an IAM pass is generally considered equivalent to RoSPA Silver. Both follow Roadcraft and of course you've no idea what you'll get till you test!
@@jonchilds1637 Thank you Jon, thats great direction and counsel. Appreciated.
I’ve been using the British police style of riding for the last 45 years. It will save your life and make you a fabulous rider. The positioning in the road gives you maximum visibility down the road and encourages you to steer with your eyes.
What's with right foot down for Andrew and the copper at the first roundabout? Can someone tell me why that is supposed to be good techniqie?
So this is brought up in the comments a few times. When I did my original training it was always left foot down, right foot on the back brake. Then you click into gear and move off. That also stops you rolling away if you are on some slope. Others (below) suggest that the right foot down allows for a faster start. I dunno. I'm sticking with the old way.
I took one of these and loved it
I enjoyed it to. Just renewed my insurance and it was an option on the additional courses section.
3:28: i'm not soo sure about being nearer the white line, on left-hand bends. it puts you too near oncoming traffic, imo, which is often cutting a straight line towards you.
Positioning close to the centre of the road on a SC road gives you better vision and therefore increased safety. Oncoming can see you sooner, you can see them sooner and you are well away from any pedestrians if there is no footway. Also check the state of the hazard line on your left bend. If its badly worn or nearly non existent, there is your clue that oncoming cuts onto your side of the road. Adjust your position accordingly. If you read the section in Roadcraft on cornering and get into limit point analysis, you can make serious progress in total safety. Roadcraft is a system. IPSGA. Information, position, speed, gear, accelerate. As a car driver and advanced Driving Instructor, I have been teaching some of the elements to learners and limit point is a life saver for new drivers.
A fighter pilots guide to staying safe on the roads.
Google this. It deals with a phenomenon called SACCADIC MASKING. Why we don't see objects we are on a collision course with and they don't see us. Very good point about changing speed/position on the bike then approaching side roads where there are vehicles present.
I loved completing my IAM and RoSPA - I’m a much safer rider now. But it also helped me with cars too. I went out with the local Ferrari group to Anglesea. My Ferrari is an oldish (1996) LHD manual car. The other guys were all much wealthier with modern Ferraris and they rocked up in Ferrari hat, shirt, sunglasses, trousers, shoes etc. but they (in much faster cars) couldn’t read the road at all. I was looking for overtake opportunities the entire journey
Hi Gavin , could I ask please which make and model of video camera you are using to capture this. Stability is very good. Thanks Brendan.
Hero 9, mounted to the upper right crash bar frame. Stabilisation on, think it was cinematic setting too? You can probably see it in the opening shot on my bike.
I think anyone who rides fast already uses all of the road before a bend. Its basically the racing line. You also get a better viewing angle round the bend.
The police 'Roadcraft' book does not teach the racing line - it's the line for maximum visibility and it's worth reading.
Isn't it the same thing?
@@simonjones2240 Not quite - the police line is a later apex so you get more visibility. On a race track there's nothing coming the other way so you can take the fastest line.
Can you put in on your insurance to lower it?
Yes. There are a few insurance companies who’ll give you a discount if you show them the certificate.
@@GavCritchleythanks for the reply
I did this a few years ago from the Police Social Club near Bromley, south London, the speed they want you to travel at was scary, not a nice experience for me.
Yes, they do crack on, but I guess thats their job. I think you can see in this that I have a much more leisurely approach when I'm on my bike!
We all have our own definition what a fast ride is... Your definition is very different to most riders.. this is a very slow pace, if that's where you are comfortable, then you ride at that slow pace.. don't be forced to ride quicker than your ability.
I ride as fast as my guardian angel does!
Can you link your camera you used.
Just a normal go pro Hero 8 that was mounted on the right hand side upper crash bar.
Bare in mind that the Police are doing more then civilians and depending on their particular job they might also do things differently between Policing roles. For example Close Support need to come to a stop (blocking traffic) to have hands free to direct (and reach their gun) so might emphasise certain behaviours differently to a traffic officer. Similarly their lane position on bends might appear to a civ as ‘extreme’ - collecting foliage in panniers… Don’t forget they are hunting for every cm of extra visibility and practice a lot to provide maximum progress and early insight to hazards ahead - thus taking tougher lines makes sense for them - unless you are planning on doing insane speeds on the road then it’s probably advisable to dial back your positioning from 11 down to something more reasonable. However applying police principles (IPSGA and the plethora of other acronyms) will improve your riding. The best advice is to learn about limit points - look up and plan your ride ahead (identify and prioritise hazards), link hazards (thus avoiding unnecessary movements) and think about your safety bubble (space around you and use position to increase your visibility). Best to do a course to follow up on this - there’s a lot to learn even if it is from a bunch of Walter Mittys…
That was a great vlog, many thanks for posting it, I’ve often thought about reserving a place on the similar scheme they run in Leicestershire. The only issue is that I don’t ride a “big boy” bike. I only ride an MT 03 which is only 321cc. Did you see any smaller bikes when you attended your corse?
They ask you what bike you have and match you with others with the same or similar size bike. It's not all GSA's, KTs and Multi Stradas! Also its not like you are zooming around everywhere, even if the end part of this looks like we were. 95% of the time we were well below the speed limit. You'd be fine. You should definitely do it.
@@GavCritchley That’s great, thanks very much for the info.
I was taught to ride by a copper he was great fun and super nice.
I like travelling "briskly".
It’s one of my favourite words. I use it all the time!
I noticed when stopped both the police rider & the one in front put their right foot on the ground, where is their brake control. Big no no. Should be correct gear with rear foot brake applied at point of stop & pulling away. Front brake when stopped & pulling away is poor control, because it also is your throttle control hand.
Sounds like you enjoyed it. And I hope it peaked some curiosity and interest in improving your ride - rather than put you off.
Ignore the plod going quick, you’ll catch them up the road. He has to demonstrate to the other guy how it’s done, as everyone has different limits.
It’s truly satisfying to get on with good progress. You shouldn’t need a plod bike & high-vis just to pass cars - bikes are made for cracking along. Just ignore the cars that give you grief.
Annoyingly you can get the wrong plod (typically car) who wouldn’t appreciate you getting a move on, on a regular day, but as long as you keep squeaky clean you’ll be ok.
If anything I do hope the police rider didn’t push you hard to go quick. That’s the last thing you want. Learn the bike capabilities first. Your bike would happily keep up with them - when you’re ready.
Stuart, thanks for this. I really enjoyed it, and would do more training if I could do it 1:1. Actually the comments from the video have been really generous (mostly), and acknowledge that not everyone is an aspiring Barry Sheene. Thanks again, appreciated.
I guess there's no point in a tail tidy when your plates are the size of a cars hood. 😂
Drive fast, hard and on 1 wheel.
The police always go the speed of the road so if it’s 60mph they don’t do 45 mph also there bikes are comfortable and good for acceleration not saying we should have a bike that we like to ride
I guess if they are doing this as a job, 8 hours a day, spending all day tootling along at 40 would get pretty boring. They are doing this for hundreds of hours (over a thousand) a year.
That ride should have been briefed properly. Cop should have seen slow bike behind and slowed accordingly. Bloke in front should be keeping tabs on copper and slow accordingly.
to be honest with all the things you say you didn't know, I do not believe you should be riding a bike, it frightens me that someone who has had a license for 25 years never learnt to ride properly
Thanks Mark.
Bike safe was good 20 years ago. I was told - ride like real life, don’t worry about the speed limit.
I’ve a GSA and those police bike were not ‘shifting’
you only have to remember one thing when riding a motorbike, everyone else is a moron.....trust no one especially car drivers.
And yeah you do them courses ,and the law when they catch you doing something wrong the law chucks the book at you!!!
Its interesting that part of the course covers group riding and riding your own ride. Ofd they shoot off like that when you’ve paid them to observe you. I’d ask for a refund.
Its there ego that lets them ride like that , i had three police cars speed training , all three overtaking with on coming cars , i had to emergency brake theyd stopped at the services for a break and i asked them if they wanted to see the footage from my dashcam and they got shitty then silent , if i hadn’t got my elderly mother with me id proberbly would of got a whole lot more of there ego’s .
waynegoldpig2220, police rides are better riders because if you spend 8 / 10 hours a day doing it you either get very good or very dead. Simples😕
😂😂😂 delusional
Ever heard of "familiarity breeds contempt"?
Not really. The System of motorcycle control works and is proven to keep riders safe so able to do their duty over a 30 year career. Cardinal rule to attend an RTI you must not be the next RTI.
@@lonpfrb You need to stop licking their ballsacks mate.
Hate Coppers in general, but have massive respect for Bike coppers, different breed from the rainbow wearing brigade who pose a danger to our society.
You should think about IAM Advanced Motorcycle Course
I did. Unless I'm mistaken i think you have to join a club and it all seemed very informal. Doesn't really suit how I learn things. My cornering technique is abysmal.
@@GavCritchley Have a taster ride with your local group and see how you get on
@@mfpix Group riding isn't for me (see other videos). I'd prefer to pay someone to have a two hour lesson 1:1, but that kind of arrangement doesn't seem to exist.
@@GavCritchley Hi Gav, enjoyed the video, thinking of doing the same. I'd strongly recommend a RoSPA advanced course; mine was 1:1 with my tutor and I learned so much plus met a great group of similar minded riders
@@davet2555That’s more of what I’m looking for. I’ll take a look at that.
Use 2 be free!
No way! When?
Firstly knowing all the recent laughable speed limit reductions on these roads what's the speed thing about.Youll rarely be able to go above 40 mph, or at best 50 mph on Mickleham by pass, legally.
The advice keep to the right through left hand bends is suicidal.There will be a typical wannabe Ayrton Senna taking a racing line through it in the opposite direction at some point.
I can remember the police 'advanced' driver basic system which is basically a great method of cooking the brakes because they don't know how, or when, to downshift through the gears correctly for maximum engine braking on the approach.
So driving around the 40 mph speed limits of Surrey is about their reference point.
As opposed to across Europe and what remains of the unlimited autobahn sections.
9:33: loss of brownie points re: the pedestrians imo
But the pedestrian is looking right at him so very unlikely he didn't see the bike.
Good informative vid 👍
Thank you. It was a good afternoon out. I'd recommend it.
Noth wrong with slowing down for bends...especially left bends where you view is not as great.
I know 2 I.A.M. guys who have sat the course.....TBH.....I am not impressed with the stds.
It's a myth that coppers are better riders. They're just more confident on the roads because they haven't got to look out for speed cameras.
Their training is intense and second to none you fool
Words of great wisdom from an idiot, incapable of 1) thinking outside the box or 2) research.
They read a book called road craft, take a rest and all of a sudden they are the best riders. Utter crap. Also roadcraft is not fit for purpose in todays traffic
@@volt8684 Precisely mate.
Are you Running any Road Safety Courses ? I need to Learn from a Real Expert 😂
A few years back i did bikesafe with Lincolnshire police, and then the Hopp Rider training at Cadwell again paired up with Lincs Police. Both really helpful to allow you to ride "progressively" which was their code for quickly. I found it's not on the day you improve but weeks after as you build the habits and muscle memory.
An excellent video Gavin, the big thing I note from your commentary is that unlike some of those commenting, you were able to leave your testosterone and bravado at home and go into the course prepared to learn. I was privileged to have been on a 6week standard police driver course, a 6week advanced driver course, a 6 week standard bike course, a 6week advanced bike course, pursuit trading, tepak training, security escort trading and others I can’t mention. The training that resulted in the biggest change to my driving/riding was week one of the very first course. In that week the instructor spent the whole week taking apart everything I thought I knew about driving/riding and left me, well all the student’s, feeling totally flat and demoralised. From that point they set about putting us back together the way they wanted us to drive and now 40yrs later I still drive/ride to “the system”.
Well if you ever want to share your knowledge with someone who acknowledges they have huge amounts still to learn, you know where I am!
@@GavCritchleyyes enlighten us mere mortals please?
Training won't stop someone pulling out of a sideroad immediately in front of you giving you no time to stop,😢
@@kingsmead646 The prework does go through the most dangerous place for motorcyclists, and also introduces the 'Saccadic' vision topic. Thats the phenomenom where a car will pull upto a junction, stop, look both ways, then pull out anyway. Its a deficiency in humans eysight. Narrow bike, traveling at normal speed...our eyes just don't see it. Once you know this then you treat junctions with even more care and attention. TBH I just assume they'll pull out until they don't.
@@GavCritchley Its actually about the way we see things or don't as the case may be. Lets look down the road as we are wanting to enter it. We look to our right and see a car or van heading our way so stay put. We then look further down the road to the next vehicle, a bus and further to a car. All have gaps in between. What we are actually doing is jumping our vision directly from one thing to another and actually missing the things that are in between them. ie.in between those gaps.
Further, So, we often see gaps and decide that there is space to drive into only to find that after a vehicle has past us and we pull out into what we originally considered to be a safe gap, we have missed the motorcyclist, or cyclist or small car etc. that was in between and in that gap.
So a smidsy if formed.
Great video mate. Police riders are something else, smooth, consistent speed and their observation is next level.
I did one about 7yrs ago and eventually went on to do an IAM course, passed with a f1rst and haven't looked back.
The training has saved me quite a few times, just from being able to read the road and predict what other road users intend to do.
BikeSafe & IAM easily worth the money and more
I did a ROSPA advanced riding course 30yrs ago (gulp!). Was the best thing I ever did, it obviously covered all this stuff, and it dramatically reduced my motorcycling 'moments'. I would strongly recommend advanced training to all bikers. Ride safe.. 😃
I love that! 'Moments' I know exactly what you mean.
When in my police service one goes on any driving course one is reminded that we don't have to continually ride to the speed limit all of the time. Indeed it was frowned upon. Under normal patrol duties one kept up with traffic and observed it. Only overtaking other vehicles if it was NEEDED TO DO SO. Ordinary citizens don't have such a NEED to overtake as if they were police officers going to a shout or on a pursuit. . Although as police officers we are taught how to drive/ride faster than the speed limit we do it only when required. ie when there is a NEED to do so and then training helps us stay as safe as is physically possible understanding the increased risks associated with higher speeds. .
Fair point. I suggest that the making progress up to the limit is more about the ability to operate the system at that speed. So it's more about brain speed than risk taking.
Obviously managing risk is to work up over time as experience is built.
The VR46 gold standard is thinking two corners ahead, apparently...
I did bikesafe with merseyside police about 10 years ago, their course is 2 days, the 1st exactly what you did but the 2nd was with the guys from rospa and included some bikerdown training, and another assessed ride. I think I learnt more in 2 days than I had in my previous 20 years of riding. I then did my IAM which I can also highly recommend. once you get used to moving left for RH bends and right for LH bends its amazing how much smoother your riding can be
I took the IAM. test way back in 1977
the Examiner was quite Scathing about my cornering technique...
I did modify my cornering and found it to be worthwhile
the Road positioning that the Police Riders use is very safe and practical.
thank you for a good and sensible Video.
Thank you. I'm sure I can improve my own cornering, its just time and practice and getting some good tuition.
The police biker because he has to see at times what your friend was doing with his head, hands and feet wise, he has to move from one side to the other side of a carriageway in order to get a view of him for his assessment.
Its called Bikesafe, not Bikefast.
Round where I live, S Wales valleys, there are hoards of illegal off road bikes zooming round with total impunity. Cops do nothing.
Yeah so carry on bobbies, carry on ignoring them whilst targetting legal riders comitting trivial offences cuz it's so easy.
I can imagine. And cos they're kids they have no sense of danger and do things that normal folk think were mad. I was doen that way last week...Maestrig. Regards to Wales, fab country and lovely people.
I don't agree with the copper running out to the right on left handers. You are putting yourself right in the path of the idiot cutting the corner coming the other way!
The advantages of being a police bike don't apply to the rest of us!
Absolutely. I wonder how many accidents they have?
I did it twice in North Yorkshire around 15 years ago, brilliant course, I learned loads
You say that the police biker really exaggerated his road position; when I did my Bike Safe course, the police rider briefed us beforehand that his road position may not be what we see as ideal but it was purely because he was pitting himself in the best position to see us using the bike controls as well as viewing the road ahead and keeping an eye on the following rider. And that was how the day went, nothing overly exaggerated, just good positioning to take into account all of the above.
Yes I think our chap must have been over exaggerating it for our benefit.
I have to disagree with strict left/right in a lane. You pick the best line instinctively for the conditions of the road, tightened of bend, view ahead, volume of traffic, speed, & type of bike you are riding.
Regarding bike positioning a good rule of thumb is to always ride in position you can see most of what’s in front from .. people go in about getting to know a road but if you can read roads you can get a fair way with out actually knowing road , tree lines , hedgerows , gaps in gate ways things like that can all indicate to which way a road will lead ., 👍
Helps others see you sooner also, providing they’re not texting or browsing their Mercedes-Benz 42” infotainment system…
Many years ago a work colleague was badly injured on his morning commute. We all got to know the country lanes on our daily commutes very wellm(our offices were in an old Country Estate between a number of towns). Unfortunately, he relied too much on his knowledge of the road, took a sharp bend at the maximum his car could stay on the road and hit a skip just after the corner. Be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear is a good guide to keep in mind
Also, copper is near the centre line when there are oncoming cars. What's that about?
Yes, not for me Jack!
@@GavCritchley I'd never describe myself as a particularly experienced or skilled rider but I did listen and learn during my training. Almost all of what they taught me made sense from a safety perspective...and it didn't include right foot down or riding near the centre line when there is incoming traffic. Not that impressed with this "course".
I did one of those advanced police courses - almost 30 years ago now ! They wrote "smooth professional ride" and "poetry in motion" on my certificate. well chuffed I was ! Exactly as you showed here. Difference was I had to lead all the time. The we had a turn, the examiner would just turn on his indicator.... if I was observing I see and mimic. I passed. I know some that missed a turn, lost the examiner and failed as a result. Great fun all the same.
Yes it was enjoyable, and learned a lot too!
Definitely do the advanced training with IAM or Rospa 👍 I did IAM last June and did bike safe this May, and without blowing my own trumpet, the police had to nit pick to find anything for me to improve on. Which goes to show how much advanced training is worth. The police do things slightly different to the advanced groups, in my opinion it’s for the better and has a more real world take on things. Also, time on the bike helps 👍.
I'll get back onto checking out ROSPA and IAM tomorrrow.
@@GavCritchley can’t suggest which one is best, as I’ve only done IAM. But my experience with IAM was good. I’m no longer a member, just did it for a learning experience. But can safely say now (18 months after starting IAM) I am twice the rider I used to be, and I now find enjoyment in progressive “quick” advanced riding, rather than fast risky riding like I used to. And to these people saying police riders aren’t as good as they think they are, clearly they’re the fast risky type who haven’t/won’t learn.
@@samgregory107 Sam, did you ride in groups in IAM?
@@GavCritchley I only went out with the observer (instructor). There are group rides for people who have passed the advanced test, but that’s not my kind of thing. I enjoy riding alone mostly and if I ride in a group it’s a small group of 2-3 bikes, and I it’s only a select few who I’ll ride with. I went out on one IAM group ride and I’ve never felt so vulnerable on the road in my life. The problem with the the IAM is, once you’ve passed the test you never have to do a retest, whereas Rospa is every 3 years - people in this IAM group ride had passed the test 20-40 years ago and it was very evident that they had lost their advanced level of riding.
yes sometimes I forget that our eyes are better than cameras thanks take care ride safe.
Hi Gavin, you sound keen to learn, what you learn on the course has to be a bit "painting by numbers" due to the time constraints - you might find my channel interesting, particularly if you want to improve your cornering. I cover it in all of them but 5 is the absolute basics which you need to master to make your progression easier, and 19 covers that worst of all evils, the dreaded blind left hand bend. The first 11 are all on basics, just common sense, practical, stay alive, system and safety at the speed limit. I got chatting to a guy online and mentored him through his IAM Test. This stuff is a little more in depth ( I don't like the word advanced) and several of the rides are filmed from both bikes so you can see it from both riders perspectives - 15 was the first one and the first time that we met up. Very interesting following him and doing full commentary, and the difference between his comments and mine - if you get five minutes have a look, I think you might like them - have fun and stay safe - Dale
Did u and the IAM and police experts train all the likes of Rossi
@@volt8684 Quite a few Police Motorcyclists have taken part in the Isle of Man TT races......unlike Rossi.
Thanks Gavin interesting video ! Over the years I have been on Bike Safe a couple of times & enjoyed it & learnt more. Now aged 73 I still accept I can learn more. However that said I have also tried IAM & Rospa and sadly met what I would call big heads which put me off of them. One of the issues I also have is " making progress " as my opinion is if I want to ride at 55mph in a 60 that's my choice. By the way I have ridden most of those roads as well. On a more positive note I have learnt a lot through BS. One example was when we hit traffic and filtered. When we got to the cafe and had our debrief the officer asked me why I stayed so close to the cars when passing them. I thought I was being safe. But when I told him that he told me it was a broken centre line and as long as oncoming traffic allowed I could use the full width of the carriageway. Another lesson learnt then. That's just one example but there many more and like you I would recommend BS courses to everyone. As for other schemes just be aware that you may have the same experiences I have had. If I have any advice for anyone it would be always ride with your own capabilities particularly when riding in a group.
Exactly this . Someone dropped some comments on here earlier in the week...'If you don't like leaning, get a car'...'It doesn't get interesting until you are over 60mph'. Deleted them. If I'm doing 55, and have chicken strips over 2/3rds of my tyres I don't give a toss! The best to you at 73! I hope I get to that age too!
Interesting video. Just attended one of these courses. I came away thinking that IPSGA is a great framework for dealing with hazards in a systematic way but I really do wonder if police bikers make the best teachers. They're trained to ride fast - in a way I normally wouldn't at age 61 - so I was left pondering the tension between the emphasis on safety in the classroom session and the focus on riding like a maniac in the afternoon. There has to be a better way to deliver this.
The guy I trained with was great. He could turn it on and off. I'm a slow rider, so even when he was just ambling along I thought he was quick! At the end he turned it on a bit and it was lucky I knew the way we were going. If you are doing this professionally I guess you have to know how to progress at speed.
In Gloucestershire the roads are so full of potholes that you have spend a good 50% of your awareness trying to avoid them and then hope and pray that you also avoid all the car drivers who drive into oncoming traffic on the wrong side of the road because they're avoiding the ones on _their_ side.
I've resigned myself to the fact that I'm very likely to suffer hideous injury or death at the hands of an impatient and inept car driver but, apparently, expecting the local authority to ensure that the roads remain fit for purpose is an 'unreasonable expectation'.
So in terms of road positioning (as an advanced driver/blue light responder) - use the rule of 3. I personally use the rule of 6. Let me explain. Your side of the road p1 is nearside edge. P2 is the lane centre, P3 in offside centre (where the police rider holds position). P4 is to the nearside centre line of the oncoming traffic (as though you were overtaking whilst scraping past) P5 is the centre on the offside Lane and P6 is offside Lane edge. The police rider's acceleration is termed as making safe and effective progress whilst able to stop safely in distance he can see to be clear in front of him. His road position is such that he is considering the danger ahead, such as emerging vehicles. When in P1 on right hand bends or P3 or P6 [left hand bends] (depending in the road and visibility ahead). The rider is balancing his vehicle whilst giving him increased visibility ahead and planning using a phase control system. IPSGA - information, position, speed, gear, acceleration. Using that anacronym provides for an improved ride, reduced risk and attaining safe effective progress. Depending on the road and visibility, you can effectively straighten the road out. This is a skill taught through advanced driving/riding which makes for a smoother ride/drive, maintains stability, reducing wear and tear on tyres and the road surface and can reduce travel time in a safe manner.
I like this. The IPSGA is taught in the pre ride workshops. I think its all good. I did get in touch with ROSPA (via their website) to try and get dedicated 1:1 extra tuition. No reply. If there is a ROSPA rider out there who takes 1:1 lessons (I'll pay) in Surrey, I'd love to hear from you.
@@GavCritchley contact the IAM and ask who your local contact is. The IAM is multi-leveled and the costs are on their website. You can attend your local group and join to be able to go on rides out and have assessments undertaken. You'll be assigned an observer/mentor who will give you pointers, tips and, if you have two-way comms, highly advise their use.
@@se9225 Thank you. I looked at this. Riding with a group isn't my thing. I'd prefer to pay someone to do it 1:1 at a time thats convinient for me.
@@GavCritchley you ride with your mentor/observer once you have paid for the course level chosen. You do have to be with an IAM group in order to undertake your scheduled rides out (1-2-1) and when 'assessment ready' then assigned a senior observer (usually a police class 1 rider/instructor). The speed at which you can pass is down to availability of those mentoring and undertaking your final assessment. You will need to learn Roadcraft (RC) (inside out) as well as the Highway Code (HC). You will be 'tested' on your observer rides so be sure to know your HC and RC.
@@se9225 SE, this is useful. I thought it was a group ride from day one which I'm trying to avoid. I had a bad experience in a previous group ride...which is exactly why I want some more 1:1 tuition. I'll get in touch with my local IAM and have chat with them. Thank you, appreciated.
great video. but my question is this. when you go out on road aren’t you supposed to follow the official and learn how he handles and youses the road if you are to far back and going slower than the police teacher you can’t learn anything I did enjoy your video though thanks.
I wasn't that far back, maybe 25-50 metres, less in a lot of cases. Maybe the camera makes it look further away. You can see exactly what hes doing. If he wanted me to be closer he would have said.
I used to ride all around the area back in the early 80,s and was based at RAF HEADLY COURT. Great to watch your trip around the area.
You'll have recognised where we were then. Nice part of the world.
I did this with the Norfolk Police a few years ago well worth it ,it was part of the Biker Down Course
Its good...for £65 and three hours on a Sunday its well worth it.
I just done this course, it was great fun and gives a new perspective on riding. great that you recorded it so you can analyse your ride.
Thanks Lee. I think everyone should do it, its a bargain, you learn a bit and its nice to watch how a cop rides.
I was like this on my ibt training so nervous , the trainer and other chap were gone .
Go at your own pace!
(Preface: I'm NOT (yet) a motorcycle rider - at all - I watch videos for education to try and avoid 'other peoples mistakes'). Thank you for your time and effort posting content which is educational for us "wannabes"!!
I wouldn't get too fussed about the lines (edge of the road) the copper was taking. I've seen MANY videos which suggest the entry line is far less important than people think, and "trail braking" IN a corner is actually the 'thing TO do'. Exit lines are different (to a car) as well, so is the point of progressive acceleration. In a car, yes - I'd have my right wheels near the edge of the centre line going in to a left hand bend (I'd "straighten" the path as much as possible by being as far left as I could at the apex) - but I'd be reluctant to do this on a bike. Where I live, too many (one is enough!) people can't keep their vehicle on their side of the road in a corner, on a bike I wouldn't want to lose my right leg to oncoming traffic. I wouldn't want to get too close to the left hand edge on a bike either - poor surface / gravel would be a real risk. At least where I live. I'm still studying before I even get on a bike, but the best I can ascertain is the braking profile and geometry of cornering is "different" on a bike to a car. I've never seen any individual who was BOTH a champion racecar driver AND a champion racebike rider - they appear to be different (perhaps mutually exclusive?) skillsets. Thanks for posting the vid!!
(edit): I know what you mean about speed / visibility too. I had the privilege of learning to drive (hmm, nearly 40 years ago!) in the Army. It was HAMMERED into us all the way through the training course - visible distance / stopping distance / speed. You MUST be able to stop your vehicle (that's different between a staff car and a truck with an 8 ton load on a wet road at night!) INSIDE the visible distance at all times.
John Surtees I believe managed to do both racing car and motorcycles at championship level
Circle of Grip says Trail Braking is for circuit racing, not road riding..
I wish I’d done a course like this before I crashed my cbr600 going into a tight bend too quickly which resulted in me losing my left leg. Ironically I’d ordered the Police riders handbook days before and was delivered on the day of my accident! It’s now 12 years on and I’m considering getting a maxi scooter type bike.
Oh man I am sorry to hear that Sir. As you probably pick up, I am super cautious. I see danger everywhere. Some
Of those big scooters are great. There is a Honda one, adventure type. Looks good.
@@GavCritchley don’t be sorry my friend. It was my own fault for being careless but wouldn’t ride like that again. I’ve seen that adventure scooter that Honda does which is very nice. As I can’t use my left foot for gears any more a rev and go type bike would be ideal.
Pay attention in the briefing when you're told that their road position is not necessarily an indication of where you should be but to give them a better view of your riding.
I maybe didn't hear that!
@GavCritchley Yeah, a lot of people don't listen to the words or do the prep work. I would recommend joining a RoSPA group if there's one near you. I think Kent is probably closest to your part of the world. They meet at Micky's Diner, nr Aylsford on 1st Sunday of the month and Tulley's Farm nr Crawley on the 2nd Sunday, both at 8:30 am. Worth thinking about.
Buy a copy of Roadcraft for motorcyclists whatever you do.
I'm more cautious through close trees and hedges because there are deer that can jump out into the road at any point.
And whenever one jumps out, there is always a second one!
@@GavCritchley I live near a big woods and there can be a hundred deer cross in a line, holding traffic up for 10 mins.
@@girlinagale Ah...thats a different level of deer than I'm used to!
from experience having a fox run under the front wheel of my Vespa. It makes little difference where the bike is positioned if an animal runs out. It could be almost instant. I didn't even have time to react before the blur of orange went under the front wheel. You simply have to go a bit slower on those roads because it can happen anywhere. Don't tollerate people tailgating you on country roads. Just pull over safely and let the idiot pass.
@@GavCritchley that apparently applies to baby foxes too. It was the second one that went under my Vespa's ten inch front wheel but it happened so quickly no reaction time. It probably wanted to mate the one it was chasing and ended up mating the tarmac.
Teaching riders to go out to the middle of the road and beyond sometimes to “open up” the corner is I believe dangerous. The benefits it gives a rider at the legal speed limit is not worth the risk of meeting a vehicle or another rider coming the other way doing the same thing. I do a lot of lead and tail riding for a living all over the world and usually the standard of riding is frightening. At the speed this gentleman was going the safest place is the middle of your side of the road. This has the best grip level especially in the wet as the road stone has not been pushed down into the tarmac a billion times by cars and lorries leaving a black shiny surface that has no grip at all in the wet. As commented in the video by the rider drains and all sorts of other debris that close to the gutter are a real problem, quiet often on European road the water escape is not a drain cover it’s a ditch the protrudes out into the road. I have ridden with a few police riders that are on a power trip to show just how good they are and as in this instance were taking someone out of their comfort zone on a public road, which can have an adverse affect rather than positive. The best thing about these courses is the teaching of looking ahead and spotting potential dangers before you get to them so you are at the appropriate speed and mind set to deal with any abnormality. Anything that improves a riders ability is a good thing but you must adapt what you learn to your skill level and at the end of the day realise that if it doesn’t feel right don’t do it.
Thanks for the comment. I agree entirely about being that far left you are in the iron works, debris, nuts and bolts and cracked paving. That seemed like asking for trouble. Normally I'd sit in the middle of the left lane, or on the near side car tyre path, moving to the offside if it was a left hand bend. Do you do tours or training Alan?
I bought the Police Motorcycle book many years ago and found that a goldmine.
Was a great video, im certainly going to look into that training. However your commentary intimates that perhaps you were push out of your comfort zone ! ?
Yes I think thats a fair comment, but it was good to have that little nudge...'Its OK to move on a bit!'. I still roll along at a snails pace when I'm by myself. I did a group ride in Morocco last year (its another of my videos), and I left that group on the second day becuase I didn't feel comfortable going at the pace they were going.
@@GavCritchley Hey please don't think this was trolling. I was an off road instructor for KTM uk for some years. The officer should have picked up you reticence to travel at his chosen pace. In my humble opinion. You obviously have confidence to pull the plug if you feel the need. A rare attribute, in the male of the spices.
@@farrierholly Thank you. I'm at that age that if I'm not enjoying it, or I don't feel safe, I'll walk away. Your comment is appreciated John!
@@farrierholly Just a further note...I've done some off road training, with the Desert Rose folks down in Sussex. That was really useful, and again, another confidence builder where the trainer is gently pushing your boundaries and getting you to do stuff you don't like, or don't think you can do. That was good fun. It was good to come off a motorbike. Repeatedly. I was whacked at the end of the day, felt like I'd been in a washing machine. I guess really I should do the BMW off road course, but I have a suspicion it might be full of swinging dicks...hence why I want to do 1:1 training.
I’d love to do this, I wonder do they run this training in Northern Ireland UK
A quick look at the website says they do. Belfast, Lisburn, Cookstown...loads of places.
bikesafe.co.uk/
@@GavCritchley aww brilliant cheers mate! Lisburn is my area. I’ll look into it thanks👍
Nice video Gavin, it makes me think about my road positioning and how much more of the road we can use, i agree about the iron works though!
Marked Police vehicles tend to have an effect on the behaviour of other road users. So the cops are unlikely to get 'honked' at for riding in the middle of the road, unlike us mere mortals.
I notice that Ian put his right foot down at the roundabout. That means he must have used his front brake to stop. As a former instructor, I wouldn't reccommend this. Use both brakes to stop and leave the final bit of braking to the rear brake to improve the stability of the bike.
However, I know the Police tend to use this technique to speed up gear-changes if required in a pursuit.
Nice video, ride safe, love and peace.
2 b a good motor cyclist u 1st have to be a good cyclist.
My instructor, rather than divide the lane into 3 sections, divides the lane into 5 positions, and like you experienced here, encourages riders to use the whole of the lane, by calling out 1 to 5 over the intercom. Unlike in the UK, here in NZ they are not in favour of off siding.
The obvious disadvantage of using the whole of the lane for a left hand bend comes when the vehicle coming in the opposite direction decides to cut the corner.
That positioning still provides information (oncoming car) sooner than a more conservative position so that the steering advantage of the bike can be used to move away from the centre line in good time. Not a risk taking approach, information saves lives.
Lot of straight roads/no junctions😮
I've read a few comments and they are all positive. Firstly, I rode for about seven years and sold the bike for storage issues. I'm not a fast, knee down rider and because of this I have been on a few training days to improve my skills and Bikesafe was another course. To attend the day I had to travel a long way and say overnight. I was so looking forward to learning to make my ride as safe as possible. I am open to criticism, go or bad, that's why I did it. The drive out I was following, we stopped at a cafe for a tea. It was my turn, I had to follow the sat nav because I had no idea where I was. Our group was the last to return to the base and the training wanted to do his final speech. At this point I had not received any feedback. I walked over to the instructor, he looked at me like I had two heads. I asked politely if he had any pointers. He said, not to drive over speed humps. I did remember doing that at the start of the ride and not what I would usually do. That was my total feedback. I was so disappointed.
Thats a terrible experience. Reaqlly disappointing to read that. Where was this?
@@GavCritchley I'm going back about seven years, it was one near York. I am open to criticism and and help because was new to riding. I did a course with isi Motorcycle Academy, that was great and I learnt loads.