Ive been a RoSPA Gold Level rider for a little over 6 years now, I learnt skills which I not only carry with me and use every time I ride, but the same skills help me be a better car driver too
After fifty years of riding long and hard I’ve learned there’s one necessity: Learn more. One thing @ 2:57 I’ve never heard in North American instructional videos, and that’s an acknowledgement that what’s being instructed is only applicable in some parts of the planet. That little nod to something other than what’s common to one’s own country is very refreshing and a testament to the quality of the instruction. Thanks - well done!
It applies in North America too except you have to swap the sides of the road over. You don't have many bends over there and the videos I've seen of you guys on 'twisties' shows you really know how to mess them up. We don't have many straight roads, even our motorways curve. and our straight roman roads are usually as flat and level as a fairground ride. So we have to learn how to take bends or become accident statistics. British accident rate per million vehicle miles is 13 times lower than USA
At 5:44 he's riding right on the centre line as he passes a group of oncoming vehicles. The middle one looks like a truck so his line of sight is not very good. I think I'd rather move left to buffer from that threat. I'd sacrifice some visibility into the corner and compensate by slowing down.
@@dannyflynn4395 Yes in general his riding position is questionable. Maybe when in the police service he passed his riding qualification before the police made it only 3 positions rather than the 5 positions that we used to have. [ Roadcraft 2013 ] Let's not forget that there are many riders out there and some training organisations that have not yet caught up with new practises and procedures. Some have never read a more recent Roadcraft or take new instruction . So it means that they will never pick up on any new practises or procedures that have superseded some of the older ones. That still means that many assessors or mentors are using older manoeuvres. Add to that that many times an outside position is not required to improve our view of the road ahead particularly at the speeds that we can now obtain. Many years ago when the first Police Manuals came in the 1950' and 60's there was no speed limit other than 30 mph in towns and so people were killing themselves on our country roads and then motorways at as high a speed as they could drive or ride. Speeds well in excess of 100 mph. It is therefore understandable that at those much higher speeds, in excess of 100 mph one needed all the visual distance that one can get and it's still the same for emergency personnel rushing to an incident where to get their fast or as soon as is a prerequisite. Those higher speeds are no longer available or necessary to train to for ordinary civilians. Indeed we only train or should only train to the maximum of 70 mph or less and therefore the distances seen to be clear can be made easily by slowing a little.
I also agree. The greatest hazards are those oncoming vehicles and the rider was prioritizing position over safety to prove a point for his tutorial. Great advice on limit points
At 5:38 he passes the side junction where position 3 is correct. The approaching traffic is on a straight and shows no propensity to be moving over the centre line, this is observation. As he is now approaching a left bend, position 3 is still correct but there is room to move left if one of the three vehicles should pull out maybe to over take. Planning such an avoidance is anticipation, but that is another lesson.
@@jeffslade1892 Interesting to see someone else's assessment of a situation. Riding is definitely more of an art than a science. The way I see it , he has a clear view of the side road and there is nothing there. The oncoming traffic is less visible, particularly behind the truck. I don't know how you could judge the intentions of the car at the back. Moving to position 1 would give him a better line of sight into oncoming traffic, give the cars better visibility of him and give him buffer space. I'd rather be out of the way than have to get out of the way. Just my opinion. Ride safe.
UK riding/driving position are same with us here in Indonesia...so, this explanations and examples are very usable..and as a road safety activist in Indonesia, I usually use this techniques too when facing a corner...thanks for sharing bro...👍
@3:30 this is what a lot of people who explain positioning forget to mention. It happened to me a couple of times that I was going in a blind right turn (mainland europe here) and I got bikes coming very fast from the opposite way and cutting the turn, if I would have been in the optimal visibility position, well, I probably would't have been here now. Personally, I never stay close to the line in a blind right (left for UK) turn. They actually sum it up perfectly @5:11
That happened to me a year back.On an A road (UK) coming up to a left hand bend in the car. Though an arterial road it's narrow and trucks, depending on length frequently cut it, and more often cars. This day as I approached the corner a bike (motor) came around the corner (their right) with it's wheels on the centre white line and leaning well over into my lane. I braked hard and the rider just had time to lift the bike up and miss me. I was in the car but on the bike I would never put myself in that situation that rider did. I bet he had sticky pants (underwear) after that.
Lots of expert critics here! It's impossible to convey the full panoply of skills required to ride safe, smooth, and systematic on the bends and twisties in 5:58 minutes! This is a good introductory vid. My advice? Join your local RoSPA group, increase your skills, and pleasure from riding.
chris smith my thoughts exactly Chris... nicely said, matey.... it’s an introductory video... the rider is a police rider... I’d rather watch him ride, than read comments from people whom I don’t know nor where their expertise/riding ability came from.
Ex police officer here.... most of these comments are accurate, his position is questionable in a few cases. Introductory video or not, you need to send the right message. He was too close to the line and instability loss of grip that can be caused, along with potential interaction against oncoming vehicles. He should have moved away slightly and slowed down so that he could still be able to stop in the road he can see to be clear. As they said, sacrifice a little visibility for space/stability and slow down to compensate. Also, most road fatalities from motorcycles are right of way violations (40%) from cars, so why didn't they include being VISIBLE in this. Would have taken zero extra time for him to be wearing a florry. Instead he just relies on his white lid and headlight, whilst still looking cool all in low visibility black, which is 90% of his frontal visual presence. Not a great message.
@@Bavenbushcraft not everyone wants to ride in high viz, and especially those that this video is likely targeting. They might just switch off with too much yellow on display (preachy cops and all that). I personally ride in black fabric with a white lid, not particularly to look cool, but neither do I want to look like a lollypop lady or a cop-wannabe. I also ride a GSA and use the auxiliary lights when riding. If you can't see that approaching, your eyesight is not good enough to be driving/ riding. Like I say, it's a short vid. I've watched it again, and it's basically a good promo IMHO. Yes, he could move away from oncoming traffic when there's space to do so; I personally would. As for riding too close to the centre line? In these conditions and at these speeds, instability/ loss of grip should not be a consideration. Motorcycling is inherently dangerous. If you wish to reduce it substantially, drive car instead.
@@Bavenbushcraft Hi-viz jackets turn a lot of riders off instantly. They think people who wear them are old and ride slow. I understand your point, but I think the video is reaching for a different demographic than us.
Thanks both, I think mindsets need to change then. To me it's crazy to think people would put their own safety below that of style. And eyesight actually won't always be the deciding factor in being seen. Tests have shown that folk with perfect eyesight filter out motorcycles as they don't see them as a danger. So, you have to do your best to spark the attention of the motorist ..even if that involves looking like the lollipop I used to in my day job. And, if people aren't interested in looking like that, then it should be mandatory. Call me a fascist, but when you've picked up enough folk off the road in varying states of destruction, from events that were absolutely avoidable and you see the far reaching effects to all involved, you have a different view about freedoms of choice where simple things like this can make such a big difference.
Great video, can you settle an argument please. At 3:42, it shows the wheels tight against the solid white line, with the offside of the bike over the line. Is it the offside of the vehicle or the wheels that shouldn't cross the line ? Cheers.
There's always a lot of advice about using the limit /vanishing point (or as I say, simply the amount of Rd you can see clearly in front of you), but the real key is 'judging' the limit point. That comes from riding riding riding riding and some training, not as I often see, training training trainings and some riding.
All this is just common sense. However, when I started riding many many years ago. I lacked a whole lot of common sense and believed I was a skilled and experienced driver after about just a month. I had a few very hairy moments on the bike. I had a girlfriend who had been riding for years before I started. She pointed out the way to look at hazards like the ones in this video. I was really grateful to her as I realised she was actually right and changed my ways on the road. I am now almost sixty years old and I am still riding. I don't think I would have still been riding would it not have been for my girlfriend at the time. Maybe I wouldn't even have been alive? It is GREAT that you put out videos like these f. the kids! There was nothing similar when I started riding. Thank you!
So common sense is a development of training and experience. No one is born with common sense but some people acquire it early or have the ability, as they can look objectively at something and arrive at an understanding that is common to all.
Out in Derbyshire on the bike, today, but felt ashamed to be a biker. Packs of riders forcing other road users to take evasive action because they were just doing what they wanted. Awful.
Great series of videos and long over due. Well done RoSPA. Not sure about the 3 abreast with the cyclist at 3.01 though :-) I would have held back there for a moment :-)
I had the opportunity to do a "Standard Car course" in 2000, when working in the Police. All these years later, I still use the techniques learned and more so when riding my motorcycle. Simple techniques that will never put you in danger. I wasn't completely convinced that the course was worth doing at the beginning, but I have come to appreciate its value over the last 20 years of riding/driving. Thanks for posting this up. 👍
Yes a lot of the Standard Course Roadcraft has helped me and I'm taking up biking again at a very ripe old age. I'm rusty with gears and slow manoeuvres but I did a afternoon refresher ride and my observation mirror checks and cornering were fine.Theres not much in life that's free but that course was well worth doing plus the couple of refreshers. Hope your ok 👍😊
Good video, excellent message, but I had to wince right at the end 😳. His positioning at 5:53 is less safe than it should have been. It even bullies the oncoming car to move to its left, the vehicles are that close.
that looks like the cat n fiddle, from mac to Buxton, I have been practising these skill's, it doesn't half put a smile on your face when it come's together.
Staying near the centerline on a curve is fine until the car coming in the opposite direction is hugging the inside and crossed into your lane. I stay in the middle on curves and go at an appropriate speed.
Hi, personally I find that if I approach a left handed, (UK) coming close to the center of the road not only helps to see around the bend, allows you to see oncoming traffic earlier but enables you to react and peel away towards the apex ,(away from the hazard) much quicker and in more control. Maintaining a constant radius makes it harder, in my opinion to change course if needed. Also please practice counter steering, this really helps to change direction quickly if needed.
@@dickenscider7328 No, don't mention counter steering! I've taught my two kids to ride bicycles age 5 and 4 and NEVER mentioned counter steering. Isn't it strange that they never fell off. Personally ride motorbikes for 50 years and only heard of counter steering a few years ago .
@@dickenscider7328 This is what I've been thinking - this idea that some car is going to appear from nowhere and be really close to the diving line and you'll be suddenly in trouble... Maybe if you're riding with your bloody eyes closed lol. Think about any commentary you do on a LHT - taking up position 3, oncoming in view so yielding position for safety, eyes up to the next hazing, etc...
@fabianmckenna8197 it's good to learn mate. You do it naturally but in an emergency, unless you're taught to countersteer, you're likely to steer the wrong direction and go into the hazard
Ok, that’s great advice, but the problem in those situations is the motorists behind getting itchy? They will not be happy with you holding them up, and you could end up in trouble with them up your arse, it happens quite frequently these days.
I find this all the time. So many motorists have never heard of the two second rule. It is really hard to relax and concentrate when a vehicle is tailgating ..we need some media publicity about this stupid dangerous habit.
How many times at a bend do you see oncoming traffic with their wheels across the line? That makes left hand bends in the U.K. so dangerous. Taking up position 3 (near the centre lane divider) allows you to see into the corner, but you also need to be prepared to act immediately when you see hazards.
If its an open road with good visibility and therefore nothing is seen coming the other way then that may be ok as a position to be closer to the mid line. However many roads in the UK are blind bends and to take up that same position on a blind and say a 90 deg bend would be tantamount to suicide. By taking up that extreme position [ no longer advocated by the police by the way ]one moves about a couple of feet to the right and from position 2 the sump line and the only benefit is an equal 2ft in improved forward vision. Nothing to die for should something come round such a bend at speed and on the wrong side of the mid line cutting their right hand bend and straight towards you. Not a nice or good or safe position to place oneself in in the first place. To place one in increased danger and one that would require one to have suberbe abilities to be able to sacrifice [ swerve to the nearside already in a corner and already leant over? ] should the need exists. Better to slow and stay mid line. position 2 and be a hell of a lot safer.
@@judgedredd49 Indeed; no doubt the pc knows exactly what he's doing. There is a controversy here in SWE as well if/if not one should close in to centre line at turns. I always do it - with more caution as the bend closes in, ready to correct. The only time I avoid this principle is totally blind spots as before hill crowns/tops.
@@judgedredd49 as someone who rides to this system, I can attest to the issue you're describing. Just this weekend I've had at least 15 drivers overtaking cyclists and being out on the wrong side of the road mid corner doing so. And being out towards the crown of the road on left handers, and in some cases (on single track roads) well offside of it on approach, the extra view (equal to way way more than 2ft - no idea where you got that figure from) has saved my life repeatedly. Because I have an early view into the corner, I can adjust my position or - and I had to do this a number of times over the last few days - come to an emergency stop in plenty of time. Had I been on the sump line, I would've had less vital seconds to respond to the threat. And of course, in most cases where I am approach a left hand bend in this manner, when oncoming traffic appears in my field of view, I yield my position for safety, taking a line further to the left in my lane. The only times this is dangerous is (a) if you're not paying attention and scanning, in which case failing to see the oncoming cars could leave you in a bad position too close to them, or (b) coming into the corner too fast, making it hard to adjust your line without unsettling the bike. Performing limit point analysis is literally designed to make sure (a) and (b) don't happen.
Long time since I took my IAM test but I seem to remember being encouraged to cross the centre line, if the road ahead was clear, to open bends. Didn't see that here. Is using full width of road no longer a thing?
Great video! I can personally vouch for IAM training and I know people who can vouch for RoSPA training. If you haven't already done so, get yourself on an advanced RoSPA or IAM Road Smart course.
Just read all the comments. Some smart arses think they know better! How many cops die.....how many boy racers die? This is good advice, the principles of which have served me well in 62 years riding accident free. John on FIREBLADE.
I passed my test in 1982 and I am stunned at this video. I mean, isn't it completely obvious? Feel what the bike is doing, look ahead to the way the bends are bending, and most importantly if someone is waiting to pull out from a side junction then wait until you see the whites of their eyes, if you don't then you could be toast. I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but if you ride a bike you then get your senses aware, that's what it's all about. No real guidance back in my day, you just did it or you didn't. You got it or you didn't. Work it out youngsters, it's truly worth it!! I'd NEVER ride a bike based on videos like this - going into a corner thinking what did they say? You feel it or you don't. Motorcycles - my love
I would guess the point of the video is to explain and demonstrate riding skills to people who want to learn, not to people who know it all or think they do. I'm 69 and and IAM member for both car and bike but I don't consider myself too old or too experienced to benefit from a reminder of core skills like this excellent video.
if i am approaching a road junction and a car or bike is sitting there waiting to pull out, i look at their front wheel hub as you will see that move first and then react accordingly, i passed my bike test in 1972 am still riding and still learning.
@@davebarclay4429 I joined a local IAM group in the early 2000's and I thought my observer was great, really good. I passed the test, but left the IAM shortly after, - mainly due to the social meets where I met an overwhelming number of self-entitled, righteous , pompous, established members, one of whom told me to get my rear tyre "right in the corner of the kerb, right on the edge" when cornering. But hmmmm, that's where you can pick up punctures right? I mean the rubbish that's flung out to the sides. Is there any need? Maximising view? To an extent, but you're not on the TT for ffs. Ride safe and enjoy it, and think about the things that went right and those that went wrong. Go as fast as you are comfortable with. You do NOT have to be "IAM progressive" to do so.
At 1.40 about he is riding a left hand bend with double white lines much of which is not there due to other vehicles scrubbing out the line. That means that many a wheel or rather driver has taken that bend and crossed over onto the white lines. That said he himself is extremely close to the white line and must,m if needs be, sacrifice that position if anything is coming in the opposite direction and close or even over those lines. His position is no longer necessary according to the most recent Police Roadcraft Manual . It use to be position no 5 in the older manuals but civilians are or should no longer ride so close to the middle of the road, particularly on or prior to bends, its deemed to be unsafe. Pity RoSPA hasn't yet caught up with that change that happened in the 2013 edition of Roadcraft. How not to take a bend can easily be seen at about 3.45 where Andy is definitely into the middle of the road and takes the bend on its outside circumference rather close to that centre line, indeed a further inch to the right and he would have been riding on the painted centre lines and and as they are raised that could destabilize the bike. Only when he is round the bend does he move into a more central position.[ position 3 ] With other training organisations we would be advised to stay in position 3 and not position 5 as previously stated and by that we can maintain a safer ride through the bend with less risk and therefore less danger.
judgedredd49 3:45 is an open aspect bend with unlimited lateral vision. Therefore there is no issue with him being an inch from the centre line on approach. That shows good OAP. Observation, Anticipation and Planning, and competent bike handling. Given the exact same scenario (open aspect, good vision, nothing towards)on a police Advanced solo course, you’d be expected to use the offside lane on approach, which would gain even more vision and enable you to carry more speed and straighten the bend at the same time. Thus increasing ‘progress’ whilst keeping the bike as upright and stable as possible, all the time being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear on your side of the carriageway. That in a nutshell is the ethos of advanced riding/driving. His exit could have been tighter to the apex on the near side, but then again we don’t know what hazard he is setting up for next. Had there had been vision blockers on approach to the hazard, in this case the left hand bend, then yes, he should have moved to position 3 (centre of his lane) as you say to prevent coming into contact to any unseen oncoming vehicles. Just my opinion though. And they are like bum holes. Everyone’s got one! Ride safe.👍🏻👍🏻
@@Handsolowe I don't disagree with some of what you say but quite basically as his vision was clear and there was no obvious danger he could have taken that corner or bend still with the benefits mentioned, vision, speed, gear, camber ect. but in the middle of his lane and not therefore in the outside lane. Yes a POLICE OFFICER would have taken a faster line but only when required to be somewhere, maybe to the scene of an incident or accident and to therefore has a need to make faster progress. Civilians are not police officers and therefore are not required to make faster progress.. Some people confuse the advanced police rider or class 1 or 2 qualifications with civilian advanced qualification and the two are far from compatible. A police officer in his career can take about 500 hours of intense training whereas a civilian can take as little as 12 hours to obtain an advanced certificate. We as civilians are not instructed in that manoeuvre of using the whole road on approach, the one that you outlined and quite right too. It would be extremely dangerous if maybe some 34 million road users used that regularly. Its a position or practise which is no longer instructed on by the Police [ for civilian use ]or IAM etc. including RoARDA. However it would appear that RoSPA still allow riders to put themselves in danger on the approach to some bends such as an approach which could have been a blind bend and anyone coming over the line the other way could constitute a danger as stated in the video. So why place oneself in an invidious position in the first place, one which would possibly or more probably require one to sacrifice it. The middle position would be a safer positioning and would have achieved the same objective of getting round the bend with greater safety and by merely being some 2 or 3 ft more into the lane. Later on on that road, The Cat and Fiddle there are numerous blind bends, some sharp ones which would have to be taken far differently from those open shown and not showing them is a pity as it would show the marked differences in positioning etc. that they require THis video doesn't present well as it cuts from one bend to another but from how we view it we are to believe that the rider is on one bend but the next second is being seen but on another..The continuity is out I am afraid. Actually on one bend , a right hander it was explained that on right hand bends the camber is against us That's good advice but on that particular bend as a result of all the accidents in the past at that point, it's been altered to a super elevation so the camber is actually in one's favour for a change. However that did encourage some riders to take advantage of it and still ride it too fast. It is the first right hand bend after a stop at the Cat and Fiddle pub, heading slightly downhill and that could have had some bearing on the accidents states for that road. This road is now limited to 50 mph and very few biker still use it for speeding on. After the A.S. Cameras were put into action the pub closed down but I believe that it's recently been taken over and intends to re open in the not to distance future. not specifically for bikers though.
judgedredd49 Hi. I agree that you should never sacrifice safety for vision. But vision is also key. The more you can see the faster you can safely go. Very few people travel at the speed limit in the nationals. Im not saying it’s right but if people are going to travel faster than the law allows then they would be better off doing it as safely as they can. Taking off side positions to increase vision when safe to do so increases safety. The trick is knowing when it’s safe to do so. As far as police vs civilian advanced riding courses goes, I’m not getting them confused. The courses differ from Force to Force. It’s generally between 4 to 6 weeks to achieve an advanced qualification. That’s around 200 hours of instruction. That would include a standard solo course followed by and advanced. Refresher training is every 3 to 5 years to stay current/qualified. The civilian and police advanced courses are compatible in as far as they teach ‘the system’ IPSGA. However the police course is unrestricted in (some forces) 50s and above and you are expected to make maximum progress where possible, utilising as much of the road as is safe to do so. I agree the video doesn’t present well. It’s well meaning though. I guess it’s difficult to get across what they really want to in a 5 minute presentation. Cheers for the info regarding the route. I’ve never ridden the Cat and Fiddle but intend to get up that way when lockdown is over. 👍🏻
At 03:40 the law states ANY PART OF THE VEHICLE over a SOLID WHITE LINE. So PC PLOD broke his own laws ONCE AGAIN seeing as his handle bars and part of the engine were over the line! One rule for thee and NONE for me eh, PC PLOD?
Position 5 is usually reduced to just 3 positions now, it has become position 3, near the centre line. Nearside , middle of lane, and on the brow of the road. And it still works with the proviso to move in if a hazard approaches. Having 5 positions was too complicated. For a start a motorbike has to pick its line to avoid road irons and potholes. I had to take advanced refresher courses every few years. It changed every time but the basics were the same.
I fully understand the need (and do) to move position on the road. However to stick your head out of a train carriageway (go to centre line) window to check if there is a tunnel up ahead which may take your head off if you leave it there, and then to see that there is indeed a tunnel about to take your head off, so you pull your head back into the carriage...... Then why not simply accept there may well be a tunnel up ahead that will take your head off, and therefore simply not stick your head out of the window to check.
3.36: Drain cover on a bend. Thanks, road designer. I'd have kep away from it. OK, probably fine in the dry, but it's a useful habit to get into, and good habits save lives.
andy shouldnt hit the half line mark on the middle of the curve 3:53 - 3:58 because its slippery. and when you fall in the middle of the curve, youre done.
Slow down and ride within your limits, don't ride in groups where you are trying to keep up with faster riders, let aggressive traffic past (Bmw's and big Audi's mostly), you'll filter past them at the next town or road works etc most likely anyway, slow down and enjoy the scenery, relax.
2 things. One we only see corners or bends that are clear of any or all obstructions. No blind bends with hedges or trees or walls etc. they act as vision blockers and makes our ride and bends more dangerous. Two, at the beginning we see Andy riding toward a left hand bend and close to the double white lines. That position went out with the Arc ie. the Police Roadcraft in their 2013 issue and position 5 being close to the line was considered unsuitable to teach to civilians as it was considered to be too dangerous. Why place oneself in a more dangerous position and then have to take emergency avoiding actions when or if necessary to do so.
Further the advice is that when past the apex of any bend and one can see the opening up of the road ahead one can accelerate .Be careful here as you might just be leant over still from being at that apex and any too heavy a hand on the throttle can de stabilise the rear drive wheel and by doing so it could cause one to lose rear end grip and then perhaps high side off the bike. So be aware that one must be upright or almost upright before any acceleration and that acceleration should be done with sense and suitable enough to obtain the desired speed necessary to continue with.
It was when it was a NSL mph road but some 7 years or so ago they put up average cameras about 5/6 of them and they reduced the speed limit to 50 mph and since then its died a death as has the pub that serviced all of the bikers. The ones that used it for their fun blasts. It was the most dangerous road in GB but its now only a shadow of its former self.
Whenever I've been behind a police motorcyclist, it always looks like their upper body stays in line with the bike and they lean as one to go round bends, and get the bike quite far over. It looks different to what I was taught which is to lean the upper body a bit to the inside of the bikes COG and keep the bike more upright, which is what I feel like I'm doing when I ride. Are the police riders doing the same thing but are just very smooth and subtle so isn't as obvious to me watching, or am I leaning in much less than it feels like I'm doing (as the saying goes, "feel isn't real"). Or are they actually staying dead in line with their bikes and using a different technique to go round corners? Hope that question makes sense.
I've noticed the same thing when riding with my cousin who's an ex-motorcycle copper. I'll ask him next time I see him and get back to you (If I remember!)
That's such a woolly phrase - "Know their\your limits" - what does that mean? How do you know what your limits are? The only way to know you've reached you limit is when you lose control. So how do you know know you're just this side of "your limits" ?
@@krytenLister when you slowly get up to speed but can feel when you are above a certain comfort zone. You work up to it. In a near lifetime of riding i never crashed. Why ? Because i didnt push the limits. Now folks are pushing the limits till they go over it. If you dont understand that, then you are going to crash. This video is a great tutorial. But again, i have seen sooooo many folks over ride their capabilities. Bikes can handle a lot. But not stupidity, which is what i mean about their capabilities. Thats also why bike accidents per mile is higher. Yes, my riding carreer ended when a car turned left right in front of me. Near killed my wife and now im a paraplegic. So when i see all the bike riders speeding and doing things in traffic, etc, they are over riding their capabilities.
@@georgecurtis6463 It still doesn't define "your limits" - it's a vague statement that doesn't really mean anything. Your comfort zone may be way below the limit of the bike's capabilities, or even your ability to ride the road. For example, maybe travelling 40mph in a national is your comfort zone speed - is that then the right limit?
@@georgecurtis6463 So, a butt clenching moment would indicate you are at "your limit" of abilities. Instinctively at that point anyone would back off, and so would no longer be at their limit. In which case if you do crash, then you've unknowingly gone over your limit as the fear indicator wasn't there. So back to my original question, how do ride beyond your limit ?
PC Griffiths sure keeps a spotless clean bike ... (Don't underestimate the added value a clean bike especially when it comes to visual inspection). Also full gear +1 And a pair of good high leather boots (Daytona's in his case?).
I could be mistaken but I believe those at Altberg Clubman boots - standard police issue for some forces and damn good boots (As indeed is the rest of his kit)
The Limit point to other training organisations is known as the vanishing point. It's the point where both sides [ kerbs or verges ]of the road meet in front of one and therefore the tarmac vanishes. It's a point that is always changing, it never stays in the same place as you are approaching it and running through the bend so the limit point is being followed at a distance and some organisations say one is chasing it but I don't like that word chasing at it infers greater speed. Its slow into the bend doing all your slowing or braking before you actually turn the bikes front wheel to initiate the turn. There is a saying about cutting corners and it doesn't end up good at all. Shoddy or of poor quality in fact as people have been cutting corners. The same applies to bends shoddy riding or attitude makes the job worse. Too many riders approach a bend too fast and usually in the wrong position anyway, probably cutting the bend [ corner ]or straightening it as they would call it and all that happens is that they have already set themselves up for an off well before they get to the actual bend itself. It's also called the racing line or in the USA the performance line. Many rider who use it initially lose it on approach by going too fast and see that they are not going to make the bend in the first place, brake hard and lose control or enter the bend too fast or too early into the apex and as a result run wide on the way out, and on a left handed bend that means the possibility of running wide into oncoming traffic or on a right handed bend just running out of tarmac.
This would make much more sense WITHOUT using slow motion footage. After all speed is the main factor here. It looks cool if you are editing the footage, but this is an instructional video, some might come to the wrong conclusion that Rospa want you ride slow and then slow down more before a corner.
This government has a responsibility to ensure roads are fit for bikers, unfortunately they are not and are dreadful. You shouldn’t have to swerve or change line to avoid a bad surface or pot holes. This in its self adds massively to bikers safety !
I understand keeping in the inside of the road on left bends, as to have a better limit point. But, what if as you take the turn to the left, an opposite vehicle turning right gets inside your lane, even a little bit. Doesn't this increase the possibility of hitting you? I hope I was be able to say this as clearly as I am thinking it :)
This is why you don't want to be going too fast. If you're not having to lean the bike over too much, you've got the margin to swerve out of the way if someone fails to keep to their lane.
I think that’s why they said “Never sacrifice safety for position” and told you to be a safe margin inside of the centre line. Of course, if there’s an idiot entirely in your lane, you’ve got problems but it’s about balancing the reasonably likely risk of someone being near or on the centreline with the need to see as far as possible down the road.
I would suggest that the clip at 3.01 was deliberately set up to show the danger associated with being too close to the centre line when positioning for view on a left hand bend. Further on at 3.31 to 3.36 the danger associated with positioning too close to the centre line on a left hand bend is further covered ie be aware of oncoming traffic. Perhaps the commentary could have covered this more than it did particularly at 3.01 which in reality you would shown restraint and kept behind the cyclist until around the left hand bend keeping away from the centre line and hence any unseen oncoming traffic.
it might have been set up but what difference does that make? The whole video is an information. About the cyclist and the lorry, it all depends on how wide the road is and how you, as a rider, feel about the situation at the moment. It is difficult to judge when watching a video like this.
If you look closely not only was the rider too close to the white lines but when we first see the lorry coming towards him the lorries rear wheels were also actually on the white lines. The rider's position hardly changed, he didn't slow or move to a safer line at all but the lorry driver moves away from him and closer to the verge. In fact when the rider rode passed the cyclist he was giving it minimum overtaking distance of some 4 and a half feet but was less than 3 ft from the lorry coming towards him and that only because the lorry moved away from him . At a combined speed of possibly 50 mph or more I would not like to be that close to any oncoming vehicle.
Hmm. The best advice is to use the full width of the lane (or more) to get a view around oncoming obscured corners. It is entirely situational. If something is coming in the opposite direction, reduce speed, create space and mitigate THAT the risk before prioritising the view around a corner whilst being prepared to stop. It is very very hard (exhausting also) to get this right consistently, as this video shows, where the rider is in a sub-optimal position on a few occassions, despite being apparently highly qualified. Crossing the white line is an emotive subject but personally I will do so if I have a good enough view. RoSPA I believe will not advocate that even though it's optimal for a good rider, but I may be wrong.
Dunno about rospa but IAM certainly are discouraging "offsiding" now. I do it all the time on faster roads, I paid for the tarmac and I'll damned well get full use out of it thanks very much :D If you're not riding silly fast then adjusting your position and line through the corner to compensate for oncoming traffic is not hard. On some very narrow single tracks I do the exact opposite and slow down massively and stay tucked into the hedge - I honestly hate roads like that but sometimes there's no avoiding them.
With regard to the left hand bends, where are the facts??. Whilst I fully understand Rd position consideration, I honestly can't imagine accident reports, that suggest "if the rider had been close to the centre line on approach the accident could have been avoided "... However I can honestly imagine accident reports suggesting "if the rider hadn't been so close to the centre line the accident could have been avoided"
Notice the wording they use: "on the approach" - they're mostly talking about lane positioning BEFORE you get to the corner itself. Pos. 3 is best when you're coming up to a left-hander so you can get that early view, but once you've started to make the turn, pos. 2 is fine; you don't really want to be staying in position 3 the entire way- as stated in the video, that puts you closer to oncoming traffic and in more danger. On roads like the Cat and Fiddle (The road in the video) the view is very good - corners are wide open and you can see right across so you have a nice early idea of what's coming the other way. On nice open corners like these, maintaining the outside line is fine. However, on tighter corners with less view, taking a more central position in your lane is safer, so long as you combine that with a lower speed, and keep to the golden mantra: "Always travel at a speed at which you can bring your machine to a complete stop in the distance you can see to be clear on your side of the road" Just rolls off the tongue, doesn't it? This is all covered at great length in "Motorcycle Roadcraft: the police rider's handbook" Hardly an exciting read, but if you can make it from cover to cover without falling asleep, you'll be better and safer for it.
@@thomaswarren2699 thank you for your informative reply, however careful not to imagine that someone who comments negatively on a video, is not also part of the motorcycle rider training society. Over the years I will have fallen asleep reading just about every article, book there is about advanced /riding/driving. The rider in the video was unnecessarily in the old position 5 not 3.
Never compromise your safety for position, so explain your safety @ 3.01 in, when you pass a cyclist with a lorry on opposite side of road. Certainly not the safest position in my view.
All too often we are advised to take a middle line if we have danger on both sides of us.[ cutting the danger in half ] In the case of say parked cars on the nearside and the possibility of car doors opening but we also have the possible danger of oncoming traffic and the space in between the two is perhaps not great. So we give about 3/4 ft to the parked cars ,[ or a cyclist by giving 4.5 ft ] enough to be safe from that danger or risk but that gives us less distance, only 2/3 ft to oncoming traffic. What position would you consider to be the middle way. Understanding that if a car door opens and we hit it we hit it at say 25/30 mph or less or do we collide with an oncoming vehicle with a combined speed of say 50 mph. Your choice.
@@cowboy4378 Hi cowboy what an appropriate name. The essence of safe riding is to minimise risk and therefore reduce the danger or if it's too late or can't be nullified then or at least mitigate its effect both on us as well as others. If you don't know that and don't appreciate risk and push the envelope of safety too far then don't ride a motorcycle. Understanding risk assessment is a balance of life or death when on our roads. The greater the risk the greater the chance of death or of suffering serious injury. The whole idea of this is video is to help you to keep safe.
The lorry is on double whites so it is unlikely to cross them. The alternative, to move in to position 2 will put the cyclist at risk, or to brake hard and fall in behind the cyclist going slowly uphill. The motorcyclist can see far better than the camera permits. There's actually a lot of information that has to be taken in on this one, but it needs to be done and acted on correctly.
@@jeffslade1892 Can you ride with a belief that other drivers are unlikely to do something dangerous to you. Any notion of that can mean death or serious injury to you and or some other road user. No I know that we can never ever be 100% certain of anything other drivers do but can control our own progress. With increased training such as advanced training we at least hopefully will assume or presume that the untowards is going to happen and respond to it before it does. If you fail to to that you could easily fine yourself in trouble.
The good, bad and ugly of this film. The GOOD is the discussion on using limit points as it helps riders look-up and see what is going on down the road as too many riders rarely focus that far ahead. However, the film failed to point out that looking for limit points, while good, is a momentary part of a good vision scan as a rider should be continiously sweeping the vision back from the limit point to examine the road surface. That omission was bad. While not critical, Andy demonstrates poor posture by remaining rigid in the turns as opposed to moving his chin toward his wrist. In the turns, he could also be leaning forward so his arms are not angled down to the handlebars. Then there is the UGLY. Imagine each lane has three tracks, the track closest to the centerline, the center track and the track closest to the road edge. Historically, the center track and track closest to the road edge are more likely to have debris than the track near the centerline. Andy demonstrates a left turn traveling in the track nearest to the centerline...excellent. But the PRIMARY reason it is excellent is because he is likely in the cleanest track. The UGLY part is Andy's demonstration of a right turn where he urilizes the track race line, outside-inside-outside path of travel which forces the rider into the two dirtiest tracks in every right turn so as to get a slight limit point advantage. This is very bad advice. A safer approach is to use the tire track closest to the centerline for right and left turns UNLESS there is a reason to use a differant track such as road debris, oncoming truck, a car that is hugging the centerline, etc.
@@thomaswarren2699 the beauty of freedom is you get to choose what is safer and better for you. If you prefer to transition the center track and road edge track for your right turns because you fear a head-on collission if you use the track closer to the centerline...that is your perogative. Perhaps, however, you did not fully embrace what I wrote previously. If there is an oncoming truck or vehicle crowding the centerline, simply shift over to increase seperation. In this manner, you avoid traveling in what historically are the two dirtiest tracks, the center track and the track closest to the road edge. Under your analysis, the film's promotion of being in the track closest to the centerline in left-handers likewise must be wrong because it creates, according to you, a head-on collision hazard. So, do you stay out of the track closest to the centerline in left-hand turns as well? 🙄
cannot ride with only one potential hazard in mind, ie what you assume to be the "cleanest line" and adding other considerations if they are obvious. track X might be best on some bends, not on others. Ride on what you see, dont put your bike where your eyes havent been. Whats the bigger risk, an approaching van unseen misplaced on the road travelling in excess of the speed limit towards you which in a second will head on collide or a road surface that has a bit of crap on it? If the road is that crap, slow down. As the video points out, dont sacrifice safety for position.
If you are traveling so fast into a curve that an oncoming vehicle can hit you in one second as you suggest, then you are obviously traveling too fast. In the 9 accidents I have seen occur in front of me over the decades, 8 out of 9 were in left turns and in each instance they either lowside because of debris in the center track or track nearest the road edge or they were in one of those tracks and went wide off the road.
@@Graimthu1 no, not at all. On a 90 degree plus blind left hand bend you could be doing 5mph and still be hit by an oncoming vehicle if youre in the wrong position and they are wide on a narrow road and travelling too fast. At 50mph it takes 1 second to cover 23 meters. May have nothing to do with your speed. Im not guessing, I know. you may have seen 9 accidents, ive dealt with many more
The most complicated way possible to say "How far can you see?" But doesn't address, at all, the importance of being able to slow into a corner and not accelerating until we can see our exit and take away lean angle.
I don't agree with left cornering. You should never ever get into a corner so close to the middle of the road. You never know if an idiot could be coming in too fast and using your lane. By the time you notice there is no easy way to move closer to the edge
5:42 voice over "never sacrifice positioning for safety". vision; bike approaches three vehicles (with the third vehicle obscured to rider) within 1 meter passing distance. Oh dear, you really should practice what you preach.
Well made video but, really, it's breaking things down to the ridiculous. What next? How to touch your nose with your finger? This maybe useful for a complete novice, or a theory exam but in the real world is of little value. If you can't tell the difference between a sharp corner and a shallow corner you've got bigger problems. Also the cornering technique shown at the 4min mark is likely to have you wiped out by an oncoming vehicle who is cutting the corner. And who actually thinks "is the limit point moving towards me"? This video and others like it (many) will simply make new riders overthink the corner. Best advice I ever read on corners is "it's better to think you could have taken the last corner 10mph faster than to think i should have taken it 10mph slower!" Happy biking !
I have ridden like this all my life. I guess it's my Dad's teaching when I was growing up(He was a RoSPA member for years) he used to get a badge every year, until a moron pulled out in front of him(The idiot in an Austin Cambridge and my Dad in his Morris Oxford).
Sad to hear that but one assumes everyone else using the road is deliberately trying to kill you. This is anticipation, which is different lesson to how to take bends on a motorbike.
Ex police officer here.... his position is questionable in a few cases. Introductory video or not, they need to send the right message. He was too close to the line and instability loss of grip that can be caused, along with potential interaction against oncoming vehicles. He should have moved away slightly and slowed down so that he could still be able to stop in the road he can see to be clear. As others have said, sacrifice a little visibility for space/stability and slow down to compensate. Also, most road fatalities from motorcycles are right of way violations (40%) from cars, so why didn't they include being VISIBLE in this. Would have taken zero extra time for him to be wearing a florry. Instead he just relies on his white lid and headlight, whilst still looking cool all in low visibility black, which is 90% of his frontal visual presence. Not a great message.
Many comments about the positionv and his visibility of the road, but what about other drivers visibility of him! Cars are involved in 70% of biker fatalities, 40% of this is right of way violations due to the old 'sorry I didn't see you' routine. Why didn't he wear a high visibility florry in this educational production. All he's got is a white lid and headlight. Most of his frontal presence is black! But I guess looking cool is more important than sending the correct message to save lives. Would have taken a couple of extra seconds to set a better standard.
Hi-vis clothing really doesn't work when you're hidden behind the front end of a motorbike. It is far more important that the motorcycle is seen. All the same do not assume they will see you; there is something called 'saccades' where we cannot see anything when the eye is moving direction of attention, which is why one should 'look twice'. SMIDSY is real, it can take 1/40 to 1/2 second to register a new object in your field of view.
I wire a hi vis vest for years, never convinced it made me any more visible except on a motorway in poor visibility. Now have a helmet which is part hi vis but don’t normally wear the vest, convinced that I now get more respect on the road, it’s the fact that your head moves. Been on Euro tours and the fact that the helmet is always visible is always commented on. Apparently there is evidence to back up my theory. Still carry my vest but only wear it in Winter or on the motorway in very poor visibility.
@@IanTed not sure i understand you here. whenever i'm out on whatever mode of transport, hiviz always catches my eye. I always wear as much as possible, and cars seem to notice me...
Great public service safety video for all bikers. You’re never too old to learn. Thanks 🙏🏻
It was a master stroke to get the guy to narrate as if talking to a class of 11yr olds - took me back to a happy time, in the mid 70s.
very helpful and informative, with very clear demonstrations in a real life scenario
Clearly listening to some of the best motorcycle riding instructions on earth. Thanks I will practice this and survive.
Chug Norris - agreed. I think I'll book a course; any reason to ride is good and people like this know their stuff.
Great demo, I will be so glad if I see more motorcycle videos like this. Looking forward to see them. Thanks for the work
Excellent video. 🙏🏍️💨👍
Ive been a RoSPA Gold Level rider for a little over 6 years now, I learnt skills which I not only carry with me and use every time I ride, but the same skills help me be a better car driver too
After fifty years of riding long and hard I’ve learned there’s one necessity: Learn more. One thing @ 2:57 I’ve never heard in North American instructional videos, and that’s an acknowledgement that what’s being instructed is only applicable in some parts of the planet. That little nod to something other than what’s common to one’s own country is very refreshing and a testament to the quality of the instruction. Thanks - well done!
It applies in North America too except you have to swap the sides of the road over. You don't have many bends over there and the videos I've seen of you guys on 'twisties' shows you really know how to mess them up. We don't have many straight roads, even our motorways curve. and our straight roman roads are usually as flat and level as a fairground ride. So we have to learn how to take bends or become accident statistics. British accident rate per million vehicle miles is 13 times lower than USA
@@jeffslade1892 hahaha they do have a lot of winding roads if you go to the right areas.
Very clear and valuable information
Excellent information, but more importantly, excellent _presentation._
Really well done.
Very nice vid! Short, simple, easy to understand.
Beautifully explained and demonstrated. Fabulous and well informative. Thank you.
Very helpful video, thanks to the officer.
Never heard about limit points before. Excellent information. Thankyou
Great video, sensational illustrative graphics.
At 5:44 he's riding right on the centre line as he passes a group of oncoming vehicles. The middle one looks like a truck so his line of sight is not very good. I think I'd rather move left to buffer from that threat. I'd sacrifice some visibility into the corner and compensate by slowing down.
Totally agree.Same with the final left hand corner with the oncoming car.
@@dannyflynn4395 Yes in general his riding position is questionable. Maybe when in the police service he passed his riding qualification before the police made it only 3 positions rather than the 5 positions that we used to have. [ Roadcraft 2013 ] Let's not forget that there are many riders out there and some training organisations that have not yet caught up with new practises and procedures. Some have never read a more recent Roadcraft or take new instruction . So it means that they will never pick up on any new practises or procedures that have superseded some of the older ones. That still means that many assessors or mentors are using older manoeuvres. Add to that that many times an outside position is not required to improve our view of the road ahead particularly at the speeds that we can now obtain.
Many years ago when the first Police Manuals came in the 1950' and 60's there was no speed limit other than 30 mph in towns and so people were killing themselves on our country roads and then motorways at as high a speed as they could drive or ride. Speeds well in excess of 100 mph. It is therefore understandable that at those much higher speeds, in excess of 100 mph one needed all the visual distance that one can get and it's still the same for emergency personnel rushing to an incident where to get their fast or as soon as is a prerequisite. Those higher speeds are no longer available or necessary to train to for ordinary civilians. Indeed we only train or should only train to the maximum of 70 mph or less and therefore the distances seen to be clear can be made easily by slowing a little.
I also agree. The greatest hazards are those oncoming vehicles and the rider was prioritizing position over safety to prove a point for his tutorial. Great advice on limit points
At 5:38 he passes the side junction where position 3 is correct. The approaching traffic is on a straight and shows no propensity to be moving over the centre line, this is observation. As he is now approaching a left bend, position 3 is still correct but there is room to move left if one of the three vehicles should pull out maybe to over take. Planning such an avoidance is anticipation, but that is another lesson.
@@jeffslade1892 Interesting to see someone else's assessment of a situation. Riding is definitely more of an art than a science. The way I see it , he has a clear view of the side road and there is nothing there. The oncoming traffic is less visible, particularly behind the truck. I don't know how you could judge the intentions of the car at the back. Moving to position 1 would give him a better line of sight into oncoming traffic, give the cars better visibility of him and give him buffer space. I'd rather be out of the way than have to get out of the way. Just my opinion. Ride safe.
UK riding/driving position are same with us here in Indonesia...so, this explanations and examples are very usable..and as a road safety activist in Indonesia, I usually use this techniques too when facing a corner...thanks for sharing bro...👍
These really work..thank you so much for life saving information..
Excellent video. Clear and very easy to understand. More of this please for motorbike riders.
@3:30 this is what a lot of people who explain positioning forget to mention. It happened to me a couple of times that I was going in a blind right turn (mainland europe here) and I got bikes coming very fast from the opposite way and cutting the turn, if I would have been in the optimal visibility position, well, I probably would't have been here now. Personally, I never stay close to the line in a blind right (left for UK) turn. They actually sum it up perfectly @5:11
That happened to me a year back.On an A road (UK) coming up to a left hand bend in the car. Though an arterial road it's narrow and trucks, depending on length frequently cut it, and more often cars. This day as I approached the corner a bike (motor) came around the corner (their right) with it's wheels on the centre white line and leaning well over into my lane. I braked hard and the rider just had time to lift the bike up and miss me. I was in the car but on the bike I would never put myself in that situation that rider did. I bet he had sticky pants (underwear) after that.
Lots of expert critics here! It's impossible to convey the full panoply of skills required to ride safe, smooth, and systematic on the bends and twisties in 5:58 minutes! This is a good introductory vid. My advice? Join your local RoSPA group, increase your skills, and pleasure from riding.
chris smith my thoughts exactly Chris... nicely said, matey.... it’s an introductory video... the rider is a police rider... I’d rather watch him ride, than read comments from people whom I don’t know nor where their expertise/riding ability came from.
Ex police officer here.... most of these comments are accurate, his position is questionable in a few cases. Introductory video or not, you need to send the right message. He was too close to the line and instability loss of grip that can be caused, along with potential interaction against oncoming vehicles. He should have moved away slightly and slowed down so that he could still be able to stop in the road he can see to be clear. As they said, sacrifice a little visibility for space/stability and slow down to compensate. Also, most road fatalities from motorcycles are right of way violations (40%) from cars, so why didn't they include being VISIBLE in this. Would have taken zero extra time for him to be wearing a florry. Instead he just relies on his white lid and headlight, whilst still looking cool all in low visibility black, which is 90% of his frontal visual presence. Not a great message.
@@Bavenbushcraft not everyone wants to ride in high viz, and especially those that this video is likely targeting. They might just switch off with too much yellow on display (preachy cops and all that). I personally ride in black fabric with a white lid, not particularly to look cool, but neither do I want to look like a lollypop lady or a cop-wannabe. I also ride a GSA and use the auxiliary lights when riding. If you can't see that approaching, your eyesight is not good enough to be driving/ riding. Like I say, it's a short vid. I've watched it again, and it's basically a good promo IMHO. Yes, he could move away from oncoming traffic when there's space to do so; I personally would. As for riding too close to the centre line? In these conditions and at these speeds, instability/ loss of grip should not be a consideration. Motorcycling is inherently dangerous. If you wish to reduce it substantially, drive car instead.
@@Bavenbushcraft Hi-viz jackets turn a lot of riders off instantly. They think people who wear them are old and ride slow. I understand your point, but I think the video is reaching for a different demographic than us.
Thanks both, I think mindsets need to change then. To me it's crazy to think people would put their own safety below that of style. And eyesight actually won't always be the deciding factor in being seen. Tests have shown that folk with perfect eyesight filter out motorcycles as they don't see them as a danger. So, you have to do your best to spark the attention of the motorist ..even if that involves looking like the lollipop I used to in my day job. And, if people aren't interested in looking like that, then it should be mandatory. Call me a fascist, but when you've picked up enough folk off the road in varying states of destruction, from events that were absolutely avoidable and you see the far reaching effects to all involved, you have a different view about freedoms of choice where simple things like this can make such a big difference.
Your voice, the background music and the visuals are all in sync which makes it comfortable to view
Great video, can you settle an argument please. At 3:42, it shows the wheels tight against the solid white line, with the offside of the bike over the line. Is it the offside of the vehicle or the wheels that shouldn't cross the line ? Cheers.
There's always a lot of advice about using the limit /vanishing point (or as I say, simply the amount of Rd you can see clearly in front of you), but the real key is 'judging' the limit point. That comes from riding riding riding riding and some training, not as I often see, training training trainings and some riding.
Such a clear explanation of limit points
All this is just common sense. However, when I started riding many many years ago. I lacked a whole lot of common sense and believed I was a skilled and experienced driver after about just a month. I had a few very hairy moments on the bike. I had a girlfriend who had been riding for years before I started. She pointed out the way to look at hazards like the ones in this video. I was really grateful to her as I realised she was actually right and changed my ways on the road. I am now almost sixty years old and I am still riding. I don't think I would have still been riding would it not have been for my girlfriend at the time. Maybe I wouldn't even have been alive? It is GREAT that you put out videos like these f. the kids! There was nothing similar when I started riding. Thank you!
So common sense is a development of training and experience. No one is born with common sense but some people acquire it early or have the ability, as they can look objectively at something and arrive at an understanding that is common to all.
If it was just a case of common sense - then not as many bikers would be killed each year.
Out in Derbyshire on the bike, today, but felt ashamed to be a biker. Packs of riders forcing other road users to take evasive action because they were just doing what they wanted. Awful.
Yes, there are some idiots out there who give us all a bad name.
Same here mate, went out really early to avoid other riders.
Yep - I hate the start of the Organ Donor season - more at risk from other riders than car drivers!
You should all meet up, hold each other and cry together.
@@SUPERMOTOJAKidiot!
Great series of videos and long over due. Well done RoSPA.
Not sure about the 3 abreast with the cyclist at 3.01 though :-) I would have held back there for a moment :-)
yes, me too!
Cyclist was slow uphill and biker slowed down, only overtaking when the truck was almost passed with plenty of room.
I had the opportunity to do a "Standard Car course" in 2000, when working in the Police. All these years later, I still use the techniques learned and more so when riding my motorcycle. Simple techniques that will never put you in danger. I wasn't completely convinced that the course was worth doing at the beginning, but I have come to appreciate its value over the last 20 years of riding/driving. Thanks for posting this up. 👍
Yes a lot of the Standard Course Roadcraft has helped me and I'm taking up biking again at a very ripe old age. I'm rusty with gears and slow manoeuvres but I did a afternoon refresher ride and my observation mirror checks and cornering were fine.Theres not much in life that's free but that course was well worth doing plus the couple of refreshers. Hope your ok 👍😊
Brilliant advice thanks for sharing with us all. 👍🇬🇧
Very well crafted video, great advice. Thanks.
Good video, excellent message, but I had to wince right at the end 😳. His positioning at 5:53 is less safe than it should have been. It even bullies the oncoming car to move to its left, the vehicles are that close.
that looks like the cat n fiddle, from mac to Buxton, I have been practising these skill's, it doesn't half put a smile on your face when it come's together.
Always good getting other people s experience bike cop lots of knowledge always look up through the corner head up thats were your bike will follow
Staying near the centerline on a curve is fine until the car coming in the opposite direction is hugging the inside and crossed into your lane. I stay in the middle on curves and go at an appropriate speed.
Hi, personally I find that if I approach a left handed, (UK) coming close to the center of the road not only helps to see around the bend, allows you to see oncoming traffic earlier but enables you to react and peel away towards the apex ,(away from the hazard) much quicker and in more control. Maintaining a constant radius makes it harder, in my opinion to change course if needed. Also please practice counter steering, this really helps to change direction quickly if needed.
@@dickenscider7328 No, don't mention counter steering!
I've taught my two kids to ride bicycles age 5 and 4 and NEVER mentioned counter steering. Isn't it strange that they never fell off. Personally ride motorbikes for 50 years and only heard of counter steering a few years ago .
@@dickenscider7328 This is what I've been thinking - this idea that some car is going to appear from nowhere and be really close to the diving line and you'll be suddenly in trouble... Maybe if you're riding with your bloody eyes closed lol. Think about any commentary you do on a LHT - taking up position 3, oncoming in view so yielding position for safety, eyes up to the next hazing, etc...
@fabianmckenna8197 it's good to learn mate. You do it naturally but in an emergency, unless you're taught to countersteer, you're likely to steer the wrong direction and go into the hazard
If this is similar to “looking through the corners”, this is the best video to explain this.
Great advice. To keep always in mind.
Ok, that’s great advice, but the problem in those situations is the motorists behind getting itchy?
They will not be happy with you holding them up, and you could end up in trouble with them up your arse, it happens quite frequently these days.
I find this all the time. So many motorists have never heard of the two second rule. It is really hard to relax and concentrate when a vehicle is tailgating ..we need some media publicity about this stupid dangerous habit.
One of the best things I ever did was to do the police riding course not long after passing my test. We did all this kind of thing and much more,
How many times at a bend do you see oncoming traffic with their wheels across the line? That makes left hand bends in the U.K. so dangerous. Taking up position 3 (near the centre lane divider) allows you to see into the corner, but you also need to be prepared to act immediately when you see hazards.
If its an open road with good visibility and therefore nothing is seen coming the other way then that may be ok as a position to be closer to the mid line. However many roads in the UK are blind bends and to take up that same position on a blind and say a 90 deg bend would be tantamount to suicide. By taking up that extreme position [ no longer advocated by the police by the way ]one moves about a couple of feet to the right and from position 2 the sump line and the only benefit is an equal 2ft in improved forward vision. Nothing to die for should something come round such a bend at speed and on the wrong side of the mid line cutting their right hand bend and straight towards you.
Not a nice or good or safe position to place oneself in in the first place. To place one in increased danger and one that would require one to have suberbe abilities to be able to sacrifice [ swerve to the nearside already in a corner and already leant over? ] should the need exists. Better to slow and stay mid line. position 2 and be a hell of a lot safer.
@@judgedredd49 Indeed; no doubt the pc knows exactly what he's doing. There is a controversy here in SWE as well if/if not one should close in to centre line at turns. I always do it - with more caution as the bend closes in, ready to correct. The only time I avoid this principle is totally blind spots as before hill crowns/tops.
@@judgedredd49 as someone who rides to this system, I can attest to the issue you're describing. Just this weekend I've had at least 15 drivers overtaking cyclists and being out on the wrong side of the road mid corner doing so. And being out towards the crown of the road on left handers, and in some cases (on single track roads) well offside of it on approach, the extra view (equal to way way more than 2ft - no idea where you got that figure from) has saved my life repeatedly. Because I have an early view into the corner, I can adjust my position or - and I had to do this a number of times over the last few days - come to an emergency stop in plenty of time. Had I been on the sump line, I would've had less vital seconds to respond to the threat. And of course, in most cases where I am approach a left hand bend in this manner, when oncoming traffic appears in my field of view, I yield my position for safety, taking a line further to the left in my lane. The only times this is dangerous is (a) if you're not paying attention and scanning, in which case failing to see the oncoming cars could leave you in a bad position too close to them, or (b) coming into the corner too fast, making it hard to adjust your line without unsettling the bike. Performing limit point analysis is literally designed to make sure (a) and (b) don't happen.
In other words, "don't sacrifice safety for position".
Long time since I took my IAM test but I seem to remember being encouraged to cross the centre line, if the road ahead was clear, to open bends. Didn't see that here. Is using full width of road no longer a thing?
When instructed and easy to follow, thanks.
Good Tips....
Very good know
Cat and fiddle pass. beautiful road.
Nice video.
Positioning on the road is the most important thing next to speed.
Great video! I can personally vouch for IAM training and I know people who can vouch for RoSPA training. If you haven't already done so, get yourself on an advanced RoSPA or IAM Road Smart course.
Good video for me as a beginner !
I find myself using the same road positioning tips when I am driving my car - to a lesser degree of course
Just read all the comments. Some smart arses think they know better! How many cops die.....how many boy racers die?
This is good advice, the principles of which have served me well in 62 years riding accident free. John on FIREBLADE.
I passed my test in 1982 and I am stunned at this video. I mean, isn't it completely obvious? Feel what the bike is doing, look ahead to the way the bends are bending, and most importantly if someone is waiting to pull out from a side junction then wait until you see the whites of their eyes, if you don't then you could be toast.
I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but if you ride a bike you then get your senses aware, that's what it's all about.
No real guidance back in my day, you just did it or you didn't. You got it or you didn't. Work it out youngsters, it's truly worth it!!
I'd NEVER ride a bike based on videos like this - going into a corner thinking what did they say? You feel it or you don't.
Motorcycles - my love
I would guess the point of the video is to explain and demonstrate riding skills to people who want to learn, not to people who know it all or think they do. I'm 69 and and IAM member for both car and bike but I don't consider myself too old or too experienced to benefit from a reminder of core skills like this excellent video.
if i am approaching a road junction and a car or bike is sitting there waiting to pull out, i look at their front wheel hub as you will see that move first and then react accordingly, i passed my bike test in 1972 am still riding and still learning.
What arrogance.
@@davebarclay4429 I joined a local IAM group in the early 2000's and I thought my observer was great, really good. I passed the test, but left the IAM shortly after, - mainly due to the social meets where I met an overwhelming number of self-entitled, righteous , pompous, established members, one of whom told me to get my rear tyre "right in the corner of the kerb, right on the edge" when cornering. But hmmmm, that's where you can pick up punctures right? I mean the rubbish that's flung out to the sides. Is there any need? Maximising view? To an extent, but you're not on the TT for ffs.
Ride safe and enjoy it, and think about the things that went right and those that went wrong. Go as fast as you are comfortable with. You do NOT have to be "IAM progressive" to do so.
@@Firefoxtony What indifference to real life.
At 1.40 about he is riding a left hand bend with double white lines much of which is not there due to other vehicles scrubbing out the line. That means that many a wheel or rather driver has taken that bend and crossed over onto the white lines. That said he himself is extremely close to the white line and must,m if needs be, sacrifice that position if anything is coming in the opposite direction and close or even over those lines. His position is no longer necessary according to the most recent Police Roadcraft Manual . It use to be position no 5 in the older manuals but civilians are or should no longer ride so close to the middle of the road, particularly on or prior to bends, its deemed to be unsafe. Pity RoSPA hasn't yet caught up with that change that happened in the 2013 edition of Roadcraft.
How not to take a bend can easily be seen at about 3.45 where Andy is definitely into the middle of the road and takes the bend on its outside circumference rather close to that centre line, indeed a further inch to the right and he would have been riding on the painted centre lines and and as they are raised that could destabilize the bike. Only when he is round the bend does he move into a more central position.[ position 3 ] With other training organisations we would be advised to stay in position 3 and not position 5 as previously stated and by that we can maintain a safer ride through the bend with less risk and therefore less danger.
judgedredd49 3:45 is an open aspect bend with unlimited lateral vision. Therefore there is no issue with him being an inch from the centre line on approach. That shows good OAP. Observation, Anticipation and Planning, and competent bike handling. Given the exact same scenario (open aspect, good vision, nothing towards)on a police Advanced solo course, you’d be expected to use the offside lane on approach, which would gain even more vision and enable you to carry more speed and straighten the bend at the same time. Thus increasing ‘progress’ whilst keeping the bike as upright and stable as possible, all the time being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear on your side of the carriageway. That in a nutshell is the ethos of advanced riding/driving.
His exit could have been tighter to the apex on the near side, but then again we don’t know what hazard he is setting up for next.
Had there had been vision blockers on approach to the hazard, in this case the left hand bend, then yes, he should have moved to position 3 (centre of his lane) as you say to prevent coming into contact to any unseen oncoming vehicles.
Just my opinion though. And they are like bum holes. Everyone’s got one! Ride safe.👍🏻👍🏻
@@Handsolowe I don't disagree with some of what you say but quite basically as his vision was clear and there was no obvious danger he could have taken that corner or bend still with the benefits mentioned, vision, speed, gear, camber ect. but in the middle of his lane and not therefore in the outside lane. Yes a POLICE OFFICER would have taken a faster line but only when required to be somewhere, maybe to the scene of an incident or accident and to therefore has a need to make faster progress. Civilians are not police officers and therefore are not required to make faster progress.. Some people confuse the advanced police rider or class 1 or 2 qualifications with civilian advanced qualification and the two are far from compatible. A police officer in his career can take about 500 hours of intense training whereas a civilian can take as little as 12 hours to obtain an advanced certificate. We as civilians are not instructed in that manoeuvre of using the whole road on approach, the one that you outlined and quite right too. It would be extremely dangerous if maybe some 34 million road users used that regularly. Its a position or practise which is no longer instructed on by the Police [ for civilian use ]or IAM etc. including RoARDA. However it would appear that RoSPA still allow riders to put themselves in danger on the approach to some bends such as an approach which could have been a blind bend and anyone coming over the line the other way could constitute a danger as stated in the video. So why place oneself in an invidious position in the first place, one which would possibly or more probably require one to sacrifice it. The middle position would be a safer positioning and would have achieved the same objective of getting round the bend with greater safety and by merely being some 2 or 3 ft more into the lane.
Later on on that road, The Cat and Fiddle there are numerous blind bends, some sharp ones which would have to be taken far differently from those open shown and not showing them is a pity as it would show the marked differences in positioning etc. that they require THis video doesn't present well as it cuts from one bend to another but from how we view it we are to believe that the rider is on one bend but the next second is being seen but on another..The continuity is out I am afraid.
Actually on one bend , a right hander it was explained that on right hand bends the camber is against us That's good advice but on that particular bend as a result of all the accidents in the past at that point, it's been altered to a super elevation so the camber is actually in one's favour for a change. However that did encourage some riders to take advantage of it and still ride it too fast. It is the first right hand bend after a stop at the Cat and Fiddle pub, heading slightly downhill and that could have had some bearing on the accidents states for that road. This road is now limited to 50 mph and very few biker still use it for speeding on. After the A.S. Cameras were put into action the pub closed down but I believe that it's recently been taken over and intends to re open in the not to distance future. not specifically for bikers though.
judgedredd49 Hi. I agree that you should never sacrifice safety for vision. But vision is also key. The more you can see the faster you can safely go. Very few people travel at the speed limit in the nationals. Im not saying it’s right but if people are going to travel faster than the law allows then they would be better off doing it as safely as they can. Taking off side positions to increase vision when safe to do so increases safety. The trick is knowing when it’s safe to do so.
As far as police vs civilian advanced riding courses goes, I’m not getting them confused. The courses differ from Force to Force. It’s generally between 4 to 6 weeks to achieve an advanced qualification. That’s around 200 hours of instruction. That would include a standard solo course followed by and advanced. Refresher training is every 3 to 5 years to stay current/qualified. The civilian and police advanced courses are compatible in as far as they teach ‘the system’ IPSGA. However the police course is unrestricted in (some forces) 50s and above and you are expected to make maximum progress where possible, utilising as much of the road as is safe to do so.
I agree the video doesn’t present well. It’s well meaning though. I guess it’s difficult to get across what they really want to in a 5 minute presentation.
Cheers for the info regarding the route. I’ve never ridden the Cat and Fiddle but intend to get up that way when lockdown is over.
👍🏻
At 03:40 the law states ANY PART OF THE VEHICLE over a SOLID WHITE LINE. So PC PLOD broke his own laws ONCE AGAIN seeing as his handle bars and part of the engine were over the line!
One rule for thee and NONE for me eh, PC PLOD?
Position 5 is usually reduced to just 3 positions now, it has become position 3, near the centre line. Nearside , middle of lane, and on the brow of the road. And it still works with the proviso to move in if a hazard approaches. Having 5 positions was too complicated. For a start a motorbike has to pick its line to avoid road irons and potholes. I had to take advanced refresher courses every few years. It changed every time but the basics were the same.
Well explained, Cheers!
I fully understand the need (and do) to move position on the road. However to stick your head out of a train carriageway (go to centre line) window to check if there is a tunnel up ahead which may take your head off if you leave it there, and then to see that there is indeed a tunnel about to take your head off, so you pull your head back into the carriage...... Then why not simply accept there may well be a tunnel up ahead that will take your head off, and therefore simply not stick your head out of the window to check.
@Carpless Yes he could see across the bend 5.53 but was still too close to the oncoming car,but each to there own.
Filling my head with THE RIGHT info at moment all schools and centres closed great info well presented .
Get a copy of "Motorcycle Roadcraft" ISBN 9780117082236. Read and understand it
3.36: Drain cover on a bend. Thanks, road designer. I'd have kep away from it. OK, probably fine in the dry, but it's a useful habit to get into, and good habits save lives.
A sewer is most likely to get blocked on a bend, which is why manholes are often placed on bends.
andy shouldnt hit the half line mark on the middle of the curve 3:53 - 3:58 because its slippery. and when you fall in the middle of the curve, youre done.
So first left hand bend what speed was he doing and what gear was he in?
The riders who would benefit from this wont watch it.
Well done
OK go to 3:00. Why is Andy in position 3 when a skip lorry is coming towards him?? IAM teach you to keep a safety bubble around you at all times
Also, don’t think he should have passed that cyclist, potentially putting them both in danger
Slow down and ride within your limits, don't ride in groups where you are trying to keep up with faster riders, let aggressive traffic past (Bmw's and big Audi's mostly), you'll filter past them at the next town or road works etc most likely anyway,
slow down and enjoy the scenery, relax.
2 things. One we only see corners or bends that are clear of any or all obstructions. No blind bends with hedges or trees or walls etc. they act as vision blockers and makes our ride and bends more dangerous. Two, at the beginning we see Andy riding toward a left hand bend and close to the double white lines. That position went out with the Arc ie. the Police Roadcraft in their 2013 issue and position 5 being close to the line was considered unsuitable to teach to civilians as it was considered to be too dangerous. Why place oneself in a more dangerous position and then have to take emergency avoiding actions when or if necessary to do so.
Further the advice is that when past the apex of any bend and one can see the opening up of the road ahead one can accelerate .Be careful here as you might just be leant over still from being at that apex and any too heavy a hand on the throttle can de stabilise the rear drive wheel and by doing so it could cause one to lose rear end grip and then perhaps high side off the bike. So be aware that one must be upright or almost upright before any acceleration and that acceleration should be done with sense and suitable enough to obtain the desired speed necessary to continue with.
He's riding Englands most dangerous road, The Cat and Fiddle from Buxton to Macclesfield in my beloved Derbyshire. The highest death rate in the land.
@Carpless Agreed. BTW Matlock Bath was a tad busier today. The rozzers were out in force checking for SORN'd bikes.
@Carpless HA! The idiots still don't stick to 50mph.
No such thing as a dangerous road in the UK, dangerous and careless drivers make the road dangerous.
It was when it was a NSL mph road but some 7 years or so ago they put up average cameras about 5/6 of them and they reduced the speed limit to 50 mph and since then its died a death as has the pub that serviced all of the bikers. The ones that used it for their fun blasts. It was the most dangerous road in GB but its now only a shadow of its former self.
@@Markycarandbikestuff Yes, dangerous and careless drivers are a bikers worst enemy.
"Chasing the curve"
Whenever I've been behind a police motorcyclist, it always looks like their upper body stays in line with the bike and they lean as one to go round bends, and get the bike quite far over. It looks different to what I was taught which is to lean the upper body a bit to the inside of the bikes COG and keep the bike more upright, which is what I feel like I'm doing when I ride. Are the police riders doing the same thing but are just very smooth and subtle so isn't as obvious to me watching, or am I leaning in much less than it feels like I'm doing (as the saying goes, "feel isn't real"). Or are they actually staying dead in line with their bikes and using a different technique to go round corners? Hope that question makes sense.
I've noticed the same thing when riding with my cousin who's an ex-motorcycle copper.
I'll ask him next time I see him and get back to you (If I remember!)
Not just me then 😀
@@joenewson381 do you mean like this? ua-cam.com/video/SdqTcrLHnP0/v-deo.html
It's evidence that on public roads, at "public speeds", you don't need to be jumping around all over the bike like an ape to get around a corner.
The 'Hold Fast' Channel - yeah that kind of thing. Not sure I’d spend as much time on the other side of the road myself 🙂
The biggest issue i find is that riders dont know their own limits.
That's such a woolly phrase - "Know their\your limits" - what does that mean? How do you know what your limits are? The only way to know you've reached you limit is when you lose control. So how do you know know you're just this side of "your limits" ?
@@krytenLister when you slowly get up to speed but can feel when you are above a certain comfort zone. You work up to it. In a near lifetime of riding i never crashed. Why ? Because i didnt push the limits. Now folks are pushing the limits till they go over it. If you dont understand that, then you are going to crash. This video is a great tutorial. But again, i have seen sooooo many folks over ride their capabilities. Bikes can handle a lot. But not stupidity, which is what i mean about their capabilities. Thats also why bike accidents per mile is higher. Yes, my riding carreer ended when a car turned left right in front of me. Near killed my wife and now im a paraplegic. So when i see all the bike riders speeding and doing things in traffic, etc, they are over riding their capabilities.
@@georgecurtis6463 It still doesn't define "your limits" - it's a vague statement that doesn't really mean anything. Your comfort zone may be way below the limit of the bike's capabilities, or even your ability to ride the road. For example, maybe travelling 40mph in a national is your comfort zone speed - is that then the right limit?
@@georgecurtis6463 So, a butt clenching moment would indicate you are at "your limit" of abilities. Instinctively at that point anyone would back off, and so would no longer be at their limit. In which case if you do crash, then you've unknowingly gone over your limit as the fear indicator wasn't there. So back to my original question, how do ride beyond your limit ?
PC Griffiths sure keeps a spotless clean bike ... (Don't underestimate the added value a clean bike especially when it comes to visual inspection).
Also full gear +1 And a pair of good high leather boots (Daytona's in his case?).
I could be mistaken but I believe those at Altberg Clubman boots - standard police issue for some forces and damn good boots (As indeed is the rest of his kit)
The Limit point to other training organisations is known as the vanishing point. It's the point where both sides [ kerbs or verges ]of the road meet in front of one and therefore the tarmac vanishes. It's a point that is always changing, it never stays in the same place as you are approaching it and running through the bend so the limit point is being followed at a distance and some organisations say one is chasing it but I don't like that word chasing at it infers greater speed. Its slow into the bend doing all your slowing or braking before you actually turn the bikes front wheel to initiate the turn. There is a saying about cutting corners and it doesn't end up good at all. Shoddy or of poor quality in fact as people have been cutting corners. The same applies to bends shoddy riding or attitude makes the job worse.
Too many riders approach a bend too fast and usually in the wrong position anyway, probably cutting the bend [ corner ]or straightening it as they would call it and all that happens is that they have already set themselves up for an off well before they get to the actual bend itself. It's also called the racing line or in the USA the performance line. Many rider who use it initially lose it on approach by going too fast and see that they are not going to make the bend in the first place, brake hard and lose control or enter the bend too fast or too early into the apex and as a result run wide on the way out, and on a left handed bend that means the possibility of running wide into oncoming traffic or on a right handed bend just running out of tarmac.
This would make much more sense WITHOUT using slow motion footage. After all speed is the main factor here. It looks cool if you are editing the footage, but this is an instructional video, some might come to the wrong conclusion that Rospa want you ride slow and then slow down more before a corner.
Twisties
This government has a responsibility to ensure roads are fit for bikers, unfortunately they are not and are dreadful. You shouldn’t have to swerve or change line to avoid a bad surface or pot holes. This in its self adds massively to bikers safety !
All roads would be much safer if they filled in the potholes (better still resurface all the bad roads) especially for cyclists and bikers.
Michigan
I understand keeping in the inside of the road on left bends, as to have a better limit point. But, what if as you take the turn to the left, an opposite vehicle turning right gets inside your lane, even a little bit. Doesn't this increase the possibility of hitting you? I hope I was be able to say this as clearly as I am thinking it :)
This is why you don't want to be going too fast. If you're not having to lean the bike over too much, you've got the margin to swerve out of the way if someone fails to keep to their lane.
I think that’s why they said “Never sacrifice safety for position” and told you to be a safe margin inside of the centre line. Of course, if there’s an idiot entirely in your lane, you’ve got problems but it’s about balancing the reasonably likely risk of someone being near or on the centreline with the need to see as far as possible down the road.
@@Pikestnt @Pikestnt Good evaluation by you; too many black-and-white/binary comments here. Good vid in my book.
Its unneccesary to go position 3 for the bend because you can see inside the corner. Why do i need to position myself if i can see the corner clearly
I would suggest that the clip at 3.01 was deliberately set up to show the danger associated with being too close to the centre line when positioning for view on a left hand bend. Further on at 3.31 to 3.36 the danger associated with positioning too close to the centre line on a left hand bend is further covered ie be aware of oncoming traffic. Perhaps the commentary could have covered this more than it did particularly at 3.01 which in reality you would shown restraint and kept behind the cyclist until around the left hand bend keeping away from the centre line and hence any unseen oncoming traffic.
it might have been set up but what difference does that make? The whole video is an information. About the cyclist and the lorry, it all depends on how wide the road is and how you, as a rider, feel about the situation at the moment. It is difficult to judge when watching a video like this.
If you look closely not only was the rider too close to the white lines but when we first see the lorry coming towards him the lorries rear wheels were also actually on the white lines. The rider's position hardly changed, he didn't slow or move to a safer line at all but the lorry driver moves away from him and closer to the verge. In fact when the rider rode passed the cyclist he was giving it minimum overtaking distance of some 4 and a half feet but was less than 3 ft from the lorry coming towards him and that only because the lorry moved away from him . At a combined speed of possibly 50 mph or more I would not like to be that close to any oncoming vehicle.
If it was set up as a bad example, why didn't they annotate it as such? A big red cross saying it was the incorrect way to do things.
ACAB. That includes you Andy.
😂facts
Hmm. The best advice is to use the full width of the lane (or more) to get a view around oncoming obscured corners. It is entirely situational. If something is coming in the opposite direction, reduce speed, create space and mitigate THAT the risk before prioritising the view around a corner whilst being prepared to stop. It is very very hard (exhausting also) to get this right consistently, as this video shows, where the rider is in a sub-optimal position on a few occassions, despite being apparently highly qualified. Crossing the white line is an emotive subject but personally I will do so if I have a good enough view. RoSPA I believe will not advocate that even though it's optimal for a good rider, but I may be wrong.
Dunno about rospa but IAM certainly are discouraging "offsiding" now. I do it all the time on faster roads, I paid for the tarmac and I'll damned well get full use out of it thanks very much :D
If you're not riding silly fast then adjusting your position and line through the corner to compensate for oncoming traffic is not hard. On some very narrow single tracks I do the exact opposite and slow down massively and stay tucked into the hedge - I honestly hate roads like that but sometimes there's no avoiding them.
With regard to the left hand bends, where are the facts??.
Whilst I fully understand Rd position consideration, I honestly can't imagine accident reports, that suggest "if the rider had been close to the centre line on approach the accident could have been avoided "... However I can honestly imagine accident reports suggesting "if the rider hadn't been so close to the centre line the accident could have been avoided"
Notice the wording they use: "on the approach" - they're mostly talking about lane positioning BEFORE you get to the corner itself.
Pos. 3 is best when you're coming up to a left-hander so you can get that early view, but once you've started to make the turn, pos. 2 is fine; you don't really want to be staying in position 3 the entire way- as stated in the video, that puts you closer to oncoming traffic and in more danger.
On roads like the Cat and Fiddle (The road in the video) the view is very good - corners are wide open and you can see right across so you have a nice early idea of what's coming the other way.
On nice open corners like these, maintaining the outside line is fine.
However, on tighter corners with less view, taking a more central position in your lane is safer, so long as you combine that with a lower speed, and keep to the golden mantra:
"Always travel at a speed at which you can bring your machine to a complete stop in the distance you can see to be clear on your side of the road"
Just rolls off the tongue, doesn't it?
This is all covered at great length in "Motorcycle Roadcraft: the police rider's handbook"
Hardly an exciting read, but if you can make it from cover to cover without falling asleep, you'll be better and safer for it.
@@thomaswarren2699 thank you for your informative reply, however careful not to imagine that someone who comments negatively on a video, is not also part of the motorcycle rider training society. Over the years I will have fallen asleep reading just about every article, book there is about advanced /riding/driving.
The rider in the video was unnecessarily in the old position 5 not 3.
this needs more attention
Never compromise your safety for position, so explain your safety @ 3.01 in, when you pass a cyclist with a lorry on opposite side of road. Certainly not the safest position in my view.
All too often we are advised to take a middle line if we have danger on both sides of us.[ cutting the danger in half ] In the case of say parked cars on the nearside and the possibility of car doors opening but we also have the possible danger of oncoming traffic and the space in between the two is perhaps not great. So we give about 3/4 ft to the parked cars ,[ or a cyclist by giving 4.5 ft ] enough to be safe from that danger or risk but that gives us less distance, only 2/3 ft to oncoming traffic. What position would you consider to be the middle way. Understanding that if a car door opens and we hit it we hit it at say 25/30 mph or less or do we collide with an oncoming vehicle with a combined speed of say 50 mph. Your choice.
Your not the president sometimes it’s ok to take risks
@@cowboy4378 Hi cowboy what an appropriate name. The essence of safe riding is to minimise risk and therefore reduce the danger or if it's too late or can't be nullified then or at least mitigate its effect both on us as well as others. If you don't know that and don't appreciate risk and push the envelope of safety too far then don't ride a motorcycle. Understanding risk assessment is a balance of life or death when on our roads. The greater the risk the greater the chance of death or of suffering serious injury. The whole idea of this is video is to help you to keep safe.
The lorry is on double whites so it is unlikely to cross them. The alternative, to move in to position 2 will put the cyclist at risk, or to brake hard and fall in behind the cyclist going slowly uphill. The motorcyclist can see far better than the camera permits. There's actually a lot of information that has to be taken in on this one, but it needs to be done and acted on correctly.
@@jeffslade1892 Can you ride with a belief that other drivers are unlikely to do something dangerous to you. Any notion of that can mean death or serious injury to you and or some other road user. No I know that we can never ever be 100% certain of anything other drivers do but can control our own progress. With increased training such as advanced training we at least hopefully will assume or presume that the untowards is going to happen and respond to it before it does. If you fail to to that you could easily fine yourself in trouble.
The good, bad and ugly of this film. The GOOD is the discussion on using limit points as it helps riders look-up and see what is going on down the road as too many riders rarely focus that far ahead. However, the film failed to point out that looking for limit points, while good, is a momentary part of a good vision scan as a rider should be continiously sweeping the vision back from the limit point to examine the road surface. That omission was bad.
While not critical, Andy demonstrates poor posture by remaining rigid in the turns as opposed to moving his chin toward his wrist. In the turns, he could also be leaning forward so his arms are not angled down to the handlebars.
Then there is the UGLY. Imagine each lane has three tracks, the track closest to the centerline, the center track and the track closest to the road edge. Historically, the center track and track closest to the road edge are more likely to have debris than the track near the centerline. Andy demonstrates a left turn traveling in the track nearest to the centerline...excellent. But the PRIMARY reason it is excellent is because he is likely in the cleanest track. The UGLY part is Andy's demonstration of a right turn where he urilizes the track race line, outside-inside-outside path of travel which forces the rider into the two dirtiest tracks in every right turn so as to get a slight limit point advantage. This is very bad advice.
A safer approach is to use the tire track closest to the centerline for right and left turns UNLESS there is a reason to use a differant track such as road debris, oncoming truck, a car that is hugging the centerline, etc.
You reckon it's safer to travel in position 3 on right-handers?
Have fun with that head-on collision with an artic you've got on the way, matey.
@@thomaswarren2699 the beauty of freedom is you get to choose what is safer and better for you. If you prefer to transition the center track and road edge track for your right turns because you fear a head-on collission if you use the track closer to the centerline...that is your perogative. Perhaps, however, you did not fully embrace what I wrote previously. If there is an oncoming truck or vehicle crowding the centerline, simply shift over to increase seperation. In this manner, you avoid traveling in what historically are the two dirtiest tracks, the center track and the track closest to the road edge. Under your analysis, the film's promotion of being in the track closest to the centerline in left-handers likewise must be wrong because it creates, according to you, a head-on collision hazard. So, do you stay out of the track closest to the centerline in left-hand turns as well? 🙄
cannot ride with only one potential hazard in mind, ie what you assume to be the "cleanest line" and adding other considerations if they are obvious. track X might be best on some bends, not on others. Ride on what you see, dont put your bike where your eyes havent been. Whats the bigger risk, an approaching van unseen misplaced on the road travelling in excess of the speed limit towards you which in a second will head on collide or a road surface that has a bit of crap on it? If the road is that crap, slow down. As the video points out, dont sacrifice safety for position.
If you are traveling so fast into a curve that an oncoming vehicle can hit you in one second as you suggest, then you are obviously traveling too fast. In the 9 accidents I have seen occur in front of me over the decades, 8 out of 9 were in left turns and in each instance they either lowside because of debris in the center track or track nearest the road edge or they were in one of those tracks and went wide off the road.
@@Graimthu1 no, not at all. On a 90 degree plus blind left hand bend you could be doing 5mph and still be hit by an oncoming vehicle if youre in the wrong position and they are wide on a narrow road and travelling too fast. At 50mph it takes 1 second to cover 23 meters. May have nothing to do with your speed.
Im not guessing, I know. you may have seen 9 accidents, ive dealt with many more
The most complicated way possible to say "How far can you see?" But doesn't address, at all, the importance of being able to slow into a corner and not accelerating until we can see our exit and take away lean angle.
Any Rider of any level should know these techniques otherwise they missed something in training
training i passed my test in 77 ,training came with experience in those days
Ermmmm.... at 3:00 overtaking a cyclist, on a blind corner, with an oncoming truck? Nothing to see here, move along
Exactly... good point. Andy has no clue about safety buffer against oncoming traffic.
I don't agree with left cornering. You should never ever get into a corner so close to the middle of the road. You never know if an idiot could be coming in too fast and using your lane. By the time you notice there is no easy way to move closer to the edge
5:42 voice over "never sacrifice positioning for safety". vision; bike approaches three vehicles (with the third vehicle obscured to rider) within 1 meter passing distance. Oh dear, you really should practice what you preach.
Brilliant
Well made video but, really, it's breaking things down to the ridiculous. What next? How to touch your nose with your finger? This maybe useful for a complete novice, or a theory exam but in the real world is of little value. If you can't tell the difference between a sharp corner and a shallow corner you've got bigger problems. Also the cornering technique shown at the 4min mark is likely to have you wiped out by an oncoming vehicle who is cutting the corner. And who actually thinks "is the limit point moving towards me"? This video and others like it (many) will simply make new riders overthink the corner. Best advice I ever read on corners is "it's better to think you could have taken the last corner 10mph faster than to think i should have taken it 10mph slower!" Happy biking !
All PRO riders are above 40 years old
Really really good advice and well filmand explained. Will keep my eyes open for more videos like this 👍
Well I will not be riding in position 3 , to much danger with oncoming traffic so I’ll be in position 21/2
I have ridden like this all my life.
I guess it's my Dad's teaching when I was growing up(He was a RoSPA member for years) he used to get a badge every year, until a moron pulled out in front of him(The idiot in an Austin Cambridge and my Dad in his Morris Oxford).
Sad to hear that but one assumes everyone else using the road is deliberately trying to kill you. This is anticipation, which is different lesson to how to take bends on a motorbike.
2:00 err just look left?
Extreme positioning is now frowned upon. Don’t do a P3 on a left or a P1 on a right. Otherwise a good video.
I thought that when passing the cyclist he should have held back to avoid being close to the heavy truck.
Agreed
Ex police officer here.... his position is questionable in a few cases. Introductory video or not, they need to send the right message. He was too close to the line and instability loss of grip that can be caused, along with potential interaction against oncoming vehicles. He should have moved away slightly and slowed down so that he could still be able to stop in the road he can see to be clear. As others have said, sacrifice a little visibility for space/stability and slow down to compensate. Also, most road fatalities from motorcycles are right of way violations (40%) from cars, so why didn't they include being VISIBLE in this. Would have taken zero extra time for him to be wearing a florry. Instead he just relies on his white lid and headlight, whilst still looking cool all in low visibility black, which is 90% of his frontal visual presence. Not a great message.
I'm sure I will bcrash to the in coming traffic if I ride in that road.
Many comments about the positionv and his visibility of the road, but what about other drivers visibility of him! Cars are involved in 70% of biker fatalities, 40% of this is right of way violations due to the old 'sorry I didn't see you' routine. Why didn't he wear a high visibility florry in this educational production. All he's got is a white lid and headlight. Most of his frontal presence is black! But I guess looking cool is more important than sending the correct message to save lives. Would have taken a couple of extra seconds to set a better standard.
Hi-vis clothing really doesn't work when you're hidden behind the front end of a motorbike. It is far more important that the motorcycle is seen. All the same do not assume they will see you; there is something called 'saccades' where we cannot see anything when the eye is moving direction of attention, which is why one should 'look twice'. SMIDSY is real, it can take 1/40 to 1/2 second to register a new object in your field of view.
...becuase the old Hiviz solves everything is scientifically and statistically ....rubbish!
I wire a hi vis vest for years, never convinced it made me any more visible except on a motorway in poor visibility. Now have a helmet which is part hi vis but don’t normally wear the vest, convinced that I now get more respect on the road, it’s the fact that your head moves. Been on Euro tours and the fact that the helmet is always visible is always commented on. Apparently there is evidence to back up my theory. Still carry my vest but only wear it in Winter or on the motorway in very poor visibility.
@@IanTed not sure i understand you here. whenever i'm out on whatever mode of transport, hiviz always catches my eye. I always wear as much as possible, and cars seem to notice me...
If he so good, why is it he is riding on the wrong side of the road?
it's called teaching
Because he lives in a civilised country.