Formula 1 V10 - The Greatest Engine Of All Time?
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- Опубліковано 30 лис 2023
- Formula 1 V10 Engines Scream To 20,000 RPM - The Best Engines Ever?
How Does A Tiny F1 Engine Make 1,000 HP? • How Tiny Formula 1 Eng...
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1,000 horsepower is nothing new in the world of Formula 1. In fact, back in the early 2000's, 3.0L naturally aspirated V10 engines were cranking out 1,000 horsepower at 20,000 RPM, without the assistance of electric motors or turbochargers like the 1.6L engines used today. This video seeks to pull back the curtain on the magic behind the glory days of F1 engines. We'll focus on numerous questions:
1. Are the V10 engines as impressive as they seem?
2. How do they hold up to modern standards?
3. What allows them to make so much power?
4. How do they differ versus production car engines?
5. Do the engines need to be relevant to road cars, with synthetic fuel coming?
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References:
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Having witnessed and experienced an F1 V10 at full rev's, It's a genuine shame we don't have them around. These engines were a statement. F1 was never about matching road cars, it was all about pure performance, pushing the boundaries futher, not regressing and becoming dull and mundane.
I'll always brag that i was a witness and hear it in person for the generations to come :D no mic can capture the true sound of it
i witnessed v12's and it was even better, the v10 was just too loud and the sound was just screeching my ears, still 1000 times better than the garbage we got now
Find yourself a I6, TT, BMW 135, it's close!
That’s why the 80s are remembered so fondly by racing fans, engineers were allowed to just go wild. It was purely about pushing the limits, rather than pushing the limits of a VERY restricted ruleset.
@@retrocompaq5212 No, just no. The V12 (Ferrari variety) sounded awesome, but nothing beats the V10 insanity...especially hearing them howl off into the distance, with that melancholic, almost singing note. Beautiful, beautiful engines.
The sounds of V10s are just, special. The pitch is perfect, the scream is neither a cry nor a grunt. It just speaks cleanly and loudly.
Remember that there is no voice louder than the voice of freedom. Freedom for Palestine 🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸
Agreed, far more then to a "Greatest Engine of all time" then numbers
@@biogdimmohamed9120 Which part?
They could also be more powerful NA too today, 1500 total horses without any Hybrid assistance and full reliability all season long reliability. With the turbo deletion it could be lighter along with being more responsive with a linear torque curve compared to the 1.6 Turbo v6s, Cost would be down and the only gripe is fitting the Hybrid system (Which honestly is just dead weight and has very little road relevance like, an argument that could be made for the V10 ig as well ofc).
Personally I've always preferred the v8s especially with the blown diffuser the downshifts were magical.
16 mins later the only question in my head is *"so, when do we bring back the V10s ⁉️"* 😅
You need to find a manufacturer willing to make and support race ready V10 engines.
@Appletank8 First FIA needs to open up regulations to allow different configurations and more RPM limit. As soon as someone finds that V10 config will give them the championship, it’ll be a reality in no time
@@thecompanioncube4211
We just got 2, maybe even 3 new engine OEMs specifically for the new engine rules coming in 2026. How many would instead join for a V10? Would it be good for F1 if only 2, or even 1 OEM made engines for everyone?
@@Appletank8 3 new plus old 4 (Ferrari Merc, Honda, Renault). If 6-7 engine manufacturers in 10/11 teams, there's more than enough wiggle room. I am not saying it will happen in first year of 2026. But till 2029-2030? Definitely realistic in my opinion. Just FIA needs to chill a bit
@@thecompanioncube4211 That's not what I said. You assume that the only reason manufacturers aren't building V10s is because the rules prevent them. No, only Ferrari really has a reason to build large, 8+ cylinder engines, heck they were the loudest voice that pushed for V6, the rest were fine with I-4 for the turbo hybrid regs. The fans' excitement for replacing hybrid v6s for V10s is not exactly shared by the OEMs that have to sink billions into developing something they have zero use for. They don't grow off trees waiting for the right person to pluck them.
Honda, Audi, GM, and Ford are quite specifically here for that hybrid powertrain, and the rules negotiated for in 2026. A high probability is them seeing that F1 with V10 and no hybrid system, is no longer worth the eyes, and going home.
So I ask, would you be happy with V10s returning to F1 if only Ferrari is interested in building them?
F1 V10's sound so incredble.
I helped develop the V10 and later the V8 for one of the teams in the good ol days of F1. Our last V10 we had on the dyno for a last test and we had over 1000hp at over 20k rpm.
would love to know the fuel flow rate >150 kg/hr?
@@GamezGuru1with their sizes and rpm, I'd wager more like 200+
@@GamezGuru1 190 to 195kg/h. We used a double fuel rail with direct injectors and variable trumpets with actuators changing the intake length depending on engine revs to optimise torque.
You lived my dream, bud 😀. Those were the glory days of engine development; it seemed like there was an upgrade at every race weekend. In just a decade, the specific power shot up from approx 200 to over 300 hp.
Btw, could the engine you're talking about be P85? I understand,though, if you're still bound by the code of silence and can't divulge that information.
I also remember the insane
Williams BMW ??
I loved it when the rules were a capacity and the manufactures built whatever config they wanted. Hearing the different cars was fantastic, you could tell exactly what was coming. As a kid watching the F1's in Australia, the V12 Ferrari and Honda were incredible, they were almost scary how loud they were.
Shame that didn't extend to letting the teams use turbo V6s if they wished -- for some reason.
@@n8pls543 think in 88 there was a crossover year where McLaren, Ferrari and Benetton used turbos and the rest NA. The turbos were limited to about half the boost and they still dominated the NA cars
v12 ferrari ftw, greatest f1 engine sound ive experience in my life by far
The problem with capacity rules is that eventually it will still lead to the same conclusion (like rally with I4 with 2.0L rules).
@@kidpagronprimsank05 you could do it like the WEC. They have a lot of freedom in design, but there is a "Balance of Performance" which is another hot button issue. And they have certain power and downforce targets you cannot overstep and they are pretty easy to reach. So for example the Peugeot Hypercar runs without a rear wing, because they are already at the downforce target with their ground effect.
V10 is the pinnacle of F1 engines no doubt. 👌🏽
But the flat 12 is still the best sound.
no v10@@SpacemanXC
Porsche 917 is the greatest sounding race car of all time, imho. The Ferrari 412's are a close second. @@The_Buttcheek_Bandit
Not even close.
v12 sounded much better in person than v10
Jason is the kind of guy that uses Ferrari engine to demonstrate the numbers, but only shows images of RedBulls 🤔
Haha, this is all props to Red Bull for having a very easy to use media center, and Ferrari having a media center more complicated than their Sunday strategy.
@@EngineeringExplained you could have used pictures of the 2006 Red Bull car, which had a Ferrari engine. (although that was the first year of V8's, so somebody would have complained anyways)
@@EngineeringExplainedWill Ferrari ever recover from that burn?.... We are checking....
@@EngineeringExplainedHaha.
because Ferrari nowadays is sucks 🤣
F1: "Let's use an engine more relevant to modern road cars."
Also F1: "Let's ban all the tech used in modern road cars."
🙄
Precisely, we're no fools!
Tech used in road cars in the 80s!
They're even removing the MGU-H for 2026, when it's finally being used in road cars
@@Amy-dq2lg What road cars? It's being removed from F1 because it's complicated and expensive. I can't imagine it's going to be on anything other than extreme hypercars.
They should just use 4 cylinder, more than 80% of road cars use that.
The sound of this engine was so iconic
I went to Indianapolis in early 2000 to watch F1 and they still had the V10s. I could hear the engines roared even I was outside the stadium. Inside the stadium you thought they were flying jet engines planes in front of you.
You haven't lived until you've heard one of these V10s in person. It was breath taking.
Ahhh, I need to hear it!
Agreed. I went to Goodwood FoS back in 2007 and I will never forget the reverb of an F1 V10 bouncing off the clouds when I was about a mile away from arriving at the event slowly getting louder and more clear as I got closer. Anyone who mocks anyone for being critical of today's F1 cars need to experience that, then come back to me with their arguments of how great the current drastically overweight hyper-expensive hybrids the big car manufacturers begged for at the expense of the dedicated race engine builders like Cosworth, then didn't even bother showing up aside from Honda (Honda has been involved in F1 consistently with the occasional sabbatical since the 60s, they would've come back anyway V6T hybrid or not).
There's even an interview of Lewis Hamilton at Abu Dhabi a few years ago where there's an old V10 demo run in the background and even he, a 7 times world champion, gets giddy, gets distracted, and goes on a tangent about what F1 has lost. Not exactly someone who's never seen an F1 car before.
@@solitaryclusterofneurons598 I believe that was after qualy in 2020 and Fernando Alonso was in that car
@EngineeringExplained I'm pretty sure that the sound is damaging to your eardrums since you can "feel" the sound behind your eyeballs. Even with the use of proper earplugs. :)
@@0Bumbihuh?
I worked on the Tyrrell 023 historic F1 powered by a Judd V-10 producing about 750 HP at 11,000 RPM (detuned so they could last 1500 race miles instead of 500 to 600 race miles for the Yamaha Judd F1 engine). Some of the differences not noted: the engines needed to be at least 160° before starting because of the tolerances, the engines ran on very high octane racing fuel, not pump gas, there was no onboard starter and the cars only weighed 1312 lbs. with the driver. The wheels were magnesium and I could pick up a rear tire and wheel with one hand.
How was the engine warmed up? I imagine oil or water were heated up and circulated?
@@jamesmedina2062They still do it today. I think it was 30 minutes before race start they pump the oil and water through external heaters to bring the engine up to temperature before starting them. The same is done to the gearbox oil. It's not only F1 where this is common, but also racing series like DTM do it.
LMFAO, the engines aren't warmed up b/c of 'tolerances', the AP oxidizer (compounded w/ silicon) has to be hot enough to sublimate under vacuum. They're 'detuned to last' b/c it' byproduct is Silica Nitrate, aka the material used to make grinding wheels.
When Silicon bonds with Nitrogen, the exothermal energy is around 35x that of H2O. In conventional Octane, the CO2 reaction is indothermic.
The claim of 60% efficiency is pure sophistry, they don't account for real fueling conditions. NASCAR has been using it to cheat since the 60'.
Watching an F1 race today without the screaming V10s is like watching an action movie with the speakers built in the TV instead of your home theatre. Bring back the V10s!
F1 teams used V10s to play God Save the Queen and V8s to play the Happy Birthday song. Therefore those engines qualify as musical instruments (unlike mayonnaise and the current V6s).
My first GP in the modern era that I attended was the Australian GP in 2000, what I can still clearly remember was the percussive noise the cars made when they changed gears, it hit you on the chest every time
Every other car channel: *CYBERTRUCK!!!*
Jason: Classic F1.
Yes, I know he was in Cammisa's video.
Those who never experienced in person can't even imagine. It's not just the sound, but you feel gearshifts in your chest. (By Standing beside the track )
Let's also remember that back in the 1980s F1 cars were making 1500hp (in qually trim) from 1500cc, which is 1kbhp/l...
And running some pretty special fuels to do so. One of the more sensible regulations now is that they must run something resembling gasoline.
Rocket fuel in fact
Impressive numbers for sure, but let's not forget that those engines were running insane boost levels, special fuels, and lasted for about 3 laps at best. There's a reason those same engines were making only about half the power in race trim.
600 lb-ft / 800+ Nm torque at maybe 12k rpm
@@polycube868 Not rocket fuel, which is composed of fuel mixing with an oxidizer to create an explosive effect, usually by using liquid oxygene and hydrazine.
What they used in F1 during those unrestricted boost years was *toluene* (also called methylbenzene) which constituted a large percentage of the fuel. Toluene is some highly potent chemical which is hazardous and dangerous to inhale (the fuel men had to wear special industrial masks). It can lead to nerve damage.
Toluene has a superior energy density to gasoline and thus can extract more power for any given volume. For this reason it's a great octane booster, and that was definitely needed when the boost was raised to insane levels.
The F1 racers did not use 100% toluene, but 84%. The other 16% in their brew is n-heptane, which has an octane rating of zero. The reason for this strange combination is because the F1 "rocket fuel" was limited to the rules to being of 102 RON octane. The n-heptane is "filler" to make the fuel comply with the rules.
Because toluene is such an effective anti knock fuel it also means that it is more difficult to ignite at low temperatures. The Formula 1 cars that ran on 84% toluene needed to have hot radiator air diverted to heat its fuel tank to 70C to assist its vaporization.
The V6s are so quiet that you don't need to wear hearing protection at the races anymore. I remember in 2010, the V8s were so loud that even with hearing protection they were remarkable.
Oh I wouldn't say that. The V6s are still really loud, just not a shrieker like the V10 and V8 so earplugs aren't necessarily needed. It's more a lower bass growl that relatively up close makes you feel like your eyeballs are vibrating in their sockets
I'm 40 and I'd rather have to wear ear protection. Haven't watched F1 since 2015. It's just not the same thing that I grew up loving. I tried, but its not for me anymore. You guys can have it.
V6 is quiet because of turbo, not 6 cylinder.
I still bring earplugs because the support races are much louder than the main event. Especially the Porsche GT races!
This is actually true. I was at a F1 race this summer and had brough with me hearing protection but ended ut not using it for the F1/F2 cars, it was not even slightly uncomfortable without. I even sat on tribune seats not more than 30 m from the track. For the F3 and Porsche cars it was needed though.
I really think that F1 lost sight of what exactly it is that theyre selling, I know a lot of people will say advertising and you'd be correct but they damaged their product so thoroughly with their disjointed approach to their rules for the last 15+ years. You really nailed it at the end in asking what are they showcasing now? Because I grew up with the same era of cars as you EE and the sounds that those v10's made in 02/03/04, were, for a budding car guy were something that I tuned into races to watch/hear. I don't anymore, as the driving is as good as ever but without the auditory cacophony that the earlier iterations of rules allowed for I just don't care. I know I am not alone in this and it's very sad.
For me it's the sounds of the V10 that makes it, and also probably the age I had when I was watching F1, pretty sure that sound bring some nostalgia for many of us 35-45yo folks 😅
It’s not just nostalgia. The older I grow, the more I doubt myself like that sometimes. But then I see F1 using V10 sounds in their intro with modern Turbo V6 imagery, I feel assured that it was actually the best sound and not just my nostalgia talking
Same, nothing sunds better.
The core (and interesting part) of the modern F1 engine is actually the MGU-H, since they are getting rid of that I think they should go back to V10s.
Edit: You heard the Honda RC166 bikes from the 60s? Maybe they should cut the displacement of the engines again and make them rev higher.
MGU-H has never been relevant to road car technology though. The cost, the complexity, the limited benefits, it just doesn't make any sense.
The engine need to rev over 4000rpm to spin turbo and MHUH, on the road who do that? Most of us drive under 300prpm.
Especially if they're using synthetic fuels, just put a V10 back, and watch the competition come back!
@@polycube868and watch the manufacturers beside ferrari or maybe redbull powertrains leaving instantly lol. Maybe small engine builder and developer will join but we'll have experienced giants vs handicapped midget race.
Thanks for the SI unit insert !!!!
Thank you so much for the metric convertions! Really appreciate it!
Alternate Title: EE roasts current F1 engine regulations for 15 minutes
If the V10 returned to F1, or via synthetic fuels or via Hydrogen ICE, it would just need a few seconds reeving it up, for the symphony make the fans instantly get bored with the current V6 Turbo Hybrids or Formula E.
That's why you'll never see historic races with F1 cars at the same event as current F1. The maFIA knows what the people would prefer.
@@AndyFromBeaverton I remember how hyped I would get with some onboards with a F1 V10 at full throttle.
@@AndyFromBeaverton I worked the first Austin race and they had historic open wheel cars that included V-10s.
@@johncooper4637 Were they running during the same weekend? How long were the races? At Monaco, they run them two weeks before the F1 race.
@@johncooper4637detuned and not revving to the limit. And some with softer exhausts.
You would think that VVT would be allow in F1 because every normal car has it. VVT will also increase the efficiency of the engine in a larger powerband.
They have infinitely variable valve timing. They don't even have camshafts. The valves operate pneumatically and are computer controlled. They're light years ahead of any road going VVT systems.
Would be fun to bring the Ducati V4R into the mix with ~240 HP out of a naturally aspirated 1 liter in an emissions compliant road legal production vehicle.
Unfortunately the new V4R only makes the full 240 if you option the race exhaust and oil from the factory, which is NOT emissions compliant. Still a lot of hp/liter though.
So theoretically it could make about 720 hp if it's 3 of them, 3 liters
I've seen the dyno bike videos and it has often been disappointing numbers, so maybe about 650 hp at 240 ft lb torque, 3.0L V10/V12? @ 16,500 rpm
V10 F1 cars made 300 ft lb torque
Jason, I absolutely love these F1 explanation videos! Please keep making more! If F1 is as serious as they say they are about the fan experience then it's a no-brainer to go synthetic fuels and V10. They have the means and brainpower to figure it out.
Thanks Jason, I really appreciate the on-screen conversions.
Nothing beat the scream of the 2004 F1 cars at top end at Indy! I had front straight seats. The 2008 V8 F1s had a higher scream but I was at a slow corner there (Montreal). PS 4-wide Top Fuel is more amazing, like a moving earthquake!
I enjoy the technology in F1 and watching the sport progress since the early 90s. I say let them use the 3.0 V10 with the current hybrid systems and turbo, give them VVT and run on sustainable fuels. I don’t really care how much fuel they use, the teams will naturally try and make them as efficient as possible for weight savings and race strategy anyways. Then we can reasonably leverage the technology to consumer engines running less rpm for durability and smaller displacement for reduced emissions.
For me, it should be - here's an amount of fuel to use for the race. Here is a MINIMUM fuel flow limit (to prevent excessive fuel saving), here is the minimum weight of the car. Have fun y'all. They would all probably converge on the same format...as that tends to happen. But how cool would it be to have a grid where there were v6 turbos, v8s with KERS, v10s and v12s all competing!!!
In WEC,teams can make different kinds engines@@lankyboy90
It’s not just the power of V10 that we love. But the sound of pure power! ❤️ unlike F1 engines today that sound like a scooter on steroids 🤣
I'm studying mechanical engineering hoping to pursue automotive engineering later and for the life of me i can't stress enough how much you inspire me and how much your videos help me to actually understand engines, numbers and their meanings as opposed to the majority of car enthusiats who memorize terms and use them without really understanding (most often employing them in an unprecise context confusing everyone)
Keep up the great work!
always a pleasure to listen to you talking about engines and their tech man. appreciate it.
Without question. The best sound EVER. Better than V8, better than V12. Like CGT or LFA is the best stock road car music. I was lucky to be at couple of races in 2004. WOW, it was soooo loud, we couldn't hear each-other for 2 hours after the race. Check Alonso V10 practice in the new V6 era... Eargasmic.
>"better than V12"
1995 Ferrari 412 T2 wants to know your location
Agree. F12s are 100% more awesome than V12s. I still think the flat 12 in the Porsche 917 is the greatest sounding engine of all time @@solitaryclusterofneurons598
@@solitaryclusterofneurons598V12 are smoother and quieter, but that doesn't always equate to better sounding.
We will never see or hear the scream of an F1 car doing 20,000 + rpm again 😭 RIP My friend 😢
Thank you, The explanation I was looking for. Well done.
When they downshift, it hits you like thunder, absolutely epic live...
Exactly! It hits you in the chest
Underappreciated that the 911 engine comes close in performance and unlike others will not break all the time. What's the point of making the V-6 "relevant to today's cars" and then banning variable valve timing and lift?
FIA are a joke. They think the MGU-H has no relevance on road cars too when it does for turbo hybrids.
Just finished watching Jason Cammisa's ICONS episode on the Cybertruck and thought it'd been a while since we saw an EE video.
Was half-hoping for a deep dive into 48 volt and why more cars aren't using it but an F1 engine video will do ;)
Les volts = more current, more current = more heat and thicker wires. Double the voltage and you can halve the cable thickness.
There are many luxury cars using 48v for high power/energy consumption components like mild hybrid systems, rear steer modules, air suspension, etc.
@@squidcaps4308 yeah I watched the video, hence "deep dive" as it can't just be that simple. (Cammisa obviously has to choose what he spends time on when talking about a whole car)
If it's that clear cut, surely we'd just keep increasing the voltage if it has no drawbacks and end up with super high voltage systems.
@@Ubarius Oh, there is a huge drawback: all insulation has to be thicker as higher voltages go thru insulation much easier. There is also arcing, much less of a problem until we are at kilovolt ranges. They are also VERY dangerous, you could put both hands on a 48V rail and feel nothing but mild tingle, do the same on a 96V rail and you get zapped, not enough to be really dangerous but enough to get your heart racing because of the scare you but 480V would just straight up start to kill you. So, we don't want to go too high in voltage either but want to find a happy compromise. After all, the motors need power and they don't really care if it is high voltage or high current, both just have their own drawbacks.
The same reason is why people in USA don't use electric water kettles; in 240V mains getting 2kW of power is quite easy, the wiring is all standard but to do the same on a 120V system.. all the wiring should be twice as thick, which usually is not the case in the receptacles meant for kitchen appliances. The electric oven, clothes drier etc things that require loads of energy work with 240V in USA.
Thanks for popping over! Cybertruck was a quick last minute cameo, but I hope to dive into the truck with time!
This is awesome! I’ve always wanted this video.
Good explanation, I really enjoyed it.
BRING BACK THE V10s! BRING THEM BACK I SAY!
Would you like to see my pocket ruler, Jason?
Always great!!
Merry Christmas
Brilliant as always
I wonder what are the harmonics involved in creating the distinct V12, V10 and V8 sounds. The V12s have a unique sound, but the V10 had a trumpet like Yowl to it that had a very unique character.
A V12 is two inline 6s set at an angle. The harmonics of each V6 are well balanced and can be set at any angle. The exhaust overlaps of each bank are right for smooth flow (but back pressure limits power.
A V10 is two inline 5s. The harmonics are perfect at certain angles. The exhaust overlaps are small making a lot of noise and power.
A V8 is two inline 4s. The harmonics are terrible so need balance shaft or cross plain crank (heavy but sounds cool). To maximize the exhaust flow requires combining both banks but that increases back pressure. So no good solutions.
A V6 is two inline 3s. Harmonics are good, no exhaust overlaps so would sound ok except you have to run a single turbo, which is a big muffler…
If you want max noise a single piston normally aspirated turning 24k RPM should make a terrible mix of harmonics.
@@gordonn4915 A 2-stroke or rotary makes twice the "rpm sound" doesn't it?
Needs only 12k rpm to make that 24k noise or even 40k noise at 20k
To maximize the noise you need the exhaust to pulse. A single piston four stroke is “on” 25% of the time, making a lot of 2nd and 4th harmonic noise. A two stroke only makes 2nd harmonics.
I'm not engineer, but I guess how combustion chambers shaped, valves and pistons synchronization, and exhaust
V10 forever
We always enjoy your videoes 😊👍
Very indepth , very detailed and also very interesting
i fully agree it would be very nice to see the N/A engines but with sustainable fuel . i've heard the V10 irl and also the V8 F1 engines during a race. watching a race is better on tv but the sound is nothing compared to irl .
It makes me so sad that I never got to experience the NA cars in person.
Sebastian Vettel owns Nigel Mansell's Williams F1 car and drives it running on sustainable fuels during shows.
F1 V10 in real life is the greatest sound of all time
thank you i wait every friday for your video
I like how you explain it!
One thing not mentioned that also speaks in favor of the old V10s, is the weight. The current 1.6L TT V6 units are 145kg (although I think they were about 125kg at their lightest), while the old V10s were as light as 85kg.
I wouldn't say that the Porsche engine is necessarily better than that of the T.50 or the Valkyrie. While it does have more torque/L at peak power, the T.50 has higher torque/L at peak torque (465Nm vs 479Nm). It also almost certainly produces more torque at 8500RPM (the peak power for the Porsche) - as the peak torque is produced at 8000RPM - but it's harder to sustain it all the way to 11000RPM where it makes peak power.
The most impressive thing about the current F1 engines is not their power it's their reliability. Those V10's only had to last a race or 2 not the upwards of 5 races the current allotment of 4 is supposed to last.
...but they cost how much, and how reliable were they the first 2 seasons....?
Yeah but AFAIK blowing a V10 per weekend would be cheaper than the very reliable V6 they use now so....
I wonder how F1 logistics work. Given the engine that is made for maximum possible performance within rules are made to very tight tolerance, and therefore certainly needs specialized machinery, and specialist workers for exotic parts.
Hello Jason,
Great video ! 👍
I'm passionate about Top Speed attempts & WR and all the controversy that comes with....
I've collected lots of datas on that subject.
Could u do a video on this subject ? I'd be glad to share u some datas to see what u think about that and to eventually understand the whole strategy forward.
Keep punching !
This is a fantastic video. 😀 I would give anything to see the v10s come back on synthetic fuel. That would truly be amazing and would transform F1 back into the spectacle it used to be.
They should bring them back and just run them on E-fuels or bio fuels with maybe a simple regen system. Bring back the noise! Or at least the V-8s, most of the teams are supercar makers anyway so the relevancy argument is hogwash. There isn't a single V6 on the road that has anything to do with the tech in an F1 PU.
They shouldn't. The teams don't want to for several reasons. The development of F1 to road is not necessarily as simple as "tech is on F1 car, tech goes to road car", it takes time for big bits of tech to do that. A lot of development for oil and fuel products we use in the modern day started in F1. Also the AMG One would disagree with you, given it's engine is a literal F1 engine made to behave on the road
@@thomashayhurst6547 The AMG One was also a failure in terms of reliability.
@@C.I... 1. At the first journo test it was and at least Mercedes were honest about it.
2. So is the valkyrie by that metric, given it needs a total engine rebuild every 100,000 miles.
My point is the OP said no V6 road car has any relevance to F1 engines yet seemed to forget about the One.
@@thomashayhurst6547 Literally the ONE. As in, the one and only. By that measure, let's talk about the Ferrari F50 and it's F1 derived V12. Formula 1 is here for entertainment; the "innovation" aspect is largely irrelevant now with the rules the way they are.
Hey Jason, you, as a F1 V10 fan, could make an interview or call a brazilian engine engineer that's worked for Renault for 20 years. I'm pretty sure this video can be amazing, cuz he's absurdly genius and fanatic for this F1's era. His name is Rico Penteado. Think of this idea.
Or most Ilmor Tech's !
1950-2006 Engine revs: Unrestricted.
2007 & 2008: 19,000 rpm, and so on and so forth.
In 2006 I read somewhere that the Renault engine (by the way that year also was the last of the 'no freeze development' rules throughout the year) was reaching 20,500 rpm in Qualy mode and 775 CV peak power from it's 2.4L V8.
One thing that i missed is a mention to the weight of the power plants. The new ones with the all the electric systems intercooler and so on, are far heavier that the old V10s. One of those old V10s weight about 70kg, and produced almost a 1000hp. They were not allowed to use things like variable intake length and so on. Pretty insane figures for what their weight is.
All i can say is the current v6 sounds no where near as good as the v10. By no means is it bad, just not as good
The combination of these engines making the world’s greatest noise and the aggressive yet light cars of the time truly are the pinnacle of F1 and it hasn’t been the same since
This is gold
Nailed it👌 the sound......🤗
I couldn’t agree more. If the fuel is sustainable then whey not make the best NA engine and stop messing with the hybrid assist crap. I don’t see a reason to go to the races in person with the cars in there current state. On the other hand If a screening V10 is running down the front straight that is worth seeing and hearing in the flesh. Thanks for sharing EE.
If they showed we could still make exciting and powerful V10s with net zero from sustainable fuels then we wouldn't have to transition the entire world to EVs and a lot of people that have a lot of power would make a lot less money.
lol...."big EV"...haha...give me a break...it's still the oil companies. Don't kid yourself.
Well, it seems to be working in the WEC.... All the ACO series are running on French-made biofuel produced from wine waste since 2022. There's still hope for road combustion yet!
Loved it Jason, wish you were working for FIA! 😄
another good vid thanks
Great. Now Chevy spark prices are going to skyrocket. Thanks whiteboard math.
Won't number of cylinders play a role in this comparison?
You chose the number of cylinders based on the limitation on displacement. Ferrari tried to get a V12 to work under the 3.0 liter rules and eventually conceded that 10 was the sweet spot.
I'm guessing this was shot back to back with the hagerty cameo... Awesome btw. Thanks for this video.
@Engineering Explained - You should do a video on the axial flow rotary valve engine they tried to make for 2003/2004 in F1. Could rev even higher due to the lack of a reciprocating valve train. Bishop was the name. I've built a few of these engines myself in the pursuit of a better breathing engine.
Now that we established that the Ferrari F1 engine makes 307HP/l, let's conpare it to the Honda V5 engine in the RC213 MotoGP, making about 350HP from previously 800ccm, now 990ccm.
It would be if they kept improving it over time.
Honestly if they changed the Regs to V10s, we'd see similar numbers to what we had before in a few seasons because of how insane the engineering is
@@coliimusic most likely yes.
Great video and wonderful talking points, this channel is always good when it's you in that whiteboard :) Independently of the power figures, its AMAZING at all that Porsche can make an engine that will have a similar piston acceleration BUT be reliable enough to last many thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of miles, which is IIRC pretty extreme and near the limits of known alloys. From 2005 onwards there where ever more stringent reliability requirements, so this was the tail end of engines that could last very little, a modern F1 fan would be shocked at how frequent and common retirements due to reliability where back in the early 2000s and before.
You correctly state that the 053 in the F2004 was not the peak power engine of it's day (in 04, that might have been the BMW in the Williams) and in 05 the Mercedes and Renault likely had it beat, and the Renault had "so good driveability" (more torque or a better torque band?) that it got away with using a 6speed transmission vs the 7 speed everyone else used, plus it was also one of the reasons Alonso won at Imola that day in 05. But the F2004 with the 053 on it's back and the trick aero, diffuser, and a la carte Bridgestones made it the best complete package.
Now if you excuse me, I need to go put on some long videos of v10 engine noise.
I think it's good they can get at least 3 strong races out an F1 engine now. No more single use, quali-only PU's. 6 races is not out of the question.
@@pauls5745 While of course I love the noise (and lightness/nimbleness) of the V10 era cars, I don’t hate modern F1 and the reliability, safety and outright speed of the machines (with control tires!) is jaw dropping.
I agree that modern reliability regs are good, but as a Kimi fan in 05, I hated that McLaren Mercedes didn’t get it’s act together haha :(
Yes, people today are either new or have short memories. In the past, you win because you were either the quickest, or just simply lasts longer than most. Ferrari with near bulletproof reliability during early 2000s was quite a feat. Also, near bulletproof reliability of current F1 was basically a new trend.
@@kidpagronprimsank05 Yeah, having a proper reliable car is very new, either that or driving fast/delicate enough based purely on feel with no data; thinking specifically on Jim Clark driving those Lotus that seemed to sometimes be made out of paper mache lol but he somehow still managed to make them last and win, that was an art in in of itself. Fangio complemented his Mercedes' cars, but even then he retired quite a few times, and if it wasn't for rules being different and allowing other drivers to give their teammates a car, he might not have as many championships.
And we're just focusing on engines, but suspension breaking, brakes just going puff, heck in the previous turbo era cars could just run out of fuel, something that may strike some as unthinkable today, but even now it's not that far fetched (how many times have we heard over the radio "save fuel!!")
I worked on the Sauber car in the V10 era (Illmore engines). My primary memory of the engine is how crazy the engine management was. We had FPGAs doing the timing.
The F1 V10's were definitely screamers but the 3.5L V12's from Lamborghini and Ferrari had a deeper tone that made them my favorite sounding race engines.
Agree 100%. Those early 90's V12s were much more "musical". The V10s were impressive, but too harsh.
Easily the most efficient use of fuel from its time.
not convinced - turbo engines had been around for decades, and were fundamentally more thermally efficient.
Most power per litre, does not mean most efficient use of fuel...
They were impressive engines but they didn't have that good fuel efficiency. In race conditions even group C cars from 80s were better IIRC, something like 55l/100km vs 70l/100km. Not quite apples to apples comparison as prototypes generally are bit more efficient aerodynamically than open wheelers and over course of a race group C cars probably had little less power on average, but they were a lot heavier so I guess that evens out somewhat. Either way, high revving small NA engine is usually not going to be very good with fuel efficiency.
@@GamezGuru1 When the V10s were racing, they were the most fuel efficient naturally apsirated engines. They delivered more kw or hp per liter of fuel than anything else.
@@pekkasalminen9601 Fuel efficiency is how much power/energy can be created relative to a volume of fuel over time.
@@AndyFromBeaverton Yeah I know and that wasn't all that great on those engines. It's hard to do exact comparison but again in race conditions: F1 V10 cars: around 70-80l/100km for 950hp peak on average; group C was limited to 51l/100km and for example Jaguar XJR-9 (7,0l NA V12) max power is about 750hp on average. That brings us about 12,6hp for liter of fuel for F1 V10 and 14,7hp/l of fuel for Jaguar. Sure it's not the most scientific comparison as the numbers are very rough ballpark figures and there may be differences in fuels, cars are different etc.. But if anything, I'd imagine fuel used in F1 would have been more energy dense and of course F1 cars are much lighter so in fact, the F1 car seem even less impressive in this aspect.
Thing is, these high revving low torque engines are inherently pretty inefficient and during that time refueling was allowed in F1, so fuel efficiency was not priority. Most important was to make as much power as possible with as light engine as possible within limits set by rules.
The sound is just awesome, the ear approves
Love your stuff Jason! The "relevancy" question gets answered when you are trying to attract major manufacturers and their MONEY!!!
formula 1: releases untold amounts of CO2, per capita, moving whole teams of people and equipment around the globe every week
also formula 1: "let's make a sustainable fuel standard so we can show we're with the times!"
I can't prove it, but I'm pretty sure that the lion's share of the pollution from F1 is actually from all the fans traveling.
@@michaelre7556 that sound right, but F1 has no control of how people get to the race.
again it's not about the total carbon emitted, but the per capita from moving everything around. the amount of fuel used by the cars during a race weekend is minuscule compared to how much it takes to MOVE said cars across the ocean.
formula 1 should just accept it's a sport of excess, and drop this hypocricy. if they really cared about sustainability, they'd run the whole season on one track
@@juancuelloespinosa I totally agree.
@@juancuelloespinosa have all F1 races in Nürburgring Gesamtstrecke (nordschleife+südschleife combined) 🤔
@erkinalp while it'd be cool to see, nurburgring hasn't been used in f1 for a while because it's too long, so it'd require too many marshals and make it too difficult to get safety cars and tow trucks where they're needed
I'm aware many racing series use it. I'm not sure why f1 thinks it's unfit, but endurance cars are ok
The best F1 V10 engine still is the Renault RS25, best sounding engine ever made.
You rock man. So effing smart. Hats off to you.
This is the FIRST time in a decade that I’ve heard a reasonable argument for bringing back V10s- one that wasn’t just complaining. Sweet.
If there's only 70kg of synthetic fuel per car I'd still rather watch V10's doing 20 laps than these shitty hairdryers we have today doing 70-odd laps
Yeah, strategy wins are kind boring anyway. Shorter races mean less strategy and pits and every lap is more important and drivers would have to be more aggressive and battle on track. My only worry is that would just make every race overly Q dependant and every team just builds ripping Q cars and tries to win that way. There is so much money at play in this sport, it seems like everything has a tendency to slide into the least risky most conservative outcome which is boring to watch.
People often forget that the current V6 engines are using about 1/2 as much fuel as the cars of the V10 era. Cars now have to carry all their fuel for the race, something those V10 cars didn't have to. So even if you were to pluck a V10 engine and put it into a modern car today, you'd need to leave room for some 200kg of fuel... or you'd just have to do a LOT of lifting and coasting, as well as short shifting to save fuel, and then carry like 180kg instead. People keep talking about what if V10 cars could have DRS and slicks. Well, what if today's cars could have 2x the fuel flow and make 1600+hp? There is no doubt in my mind that the current engines, although not sounding particularly good, are the most insanely well engineered engines of all time. Reliable, efficient, powerful. The V10 engines back then only had 1 of those traits.
Thanks for doing F1, now you gonna get lot of fans
great video, as always
had an idea a few days ago and would love your take on it
basically, what is the pinnacle f1 or road car that can be made with today's tech without any limitations posed by safety, legal/rules
Only limited by laws of physics and human biology
Just pure performance
well maybe one self-imposed guideline - to strive to make it as light as possible
a bonus one would be: make it survivable for the driver in case of a crash
Remember that there is no voice louder than the voice of freedom. Freedom for Palestine 🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸
The video I waited for ❤😂
Maybe my favorite video of yours, ever. Time to talk about opposed piston engines. I mean, you brought it up...
you're just the best man
This was fantastic, thanks! Also an F1 fan, and equally frustrated at the efforts to constantly nerf those wonderful cars.
it's just so iconic
Good. Thanks.
I miss the V10. My first live race was the 1999 Silverstone GP. My god they were loud