JBL D120 vs K120 vs E120 - The 3 ERAS of the ULTIMATE Guitar Speaker
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- Опубліковано 23 жов 2023
- I'm playing and comparing the three series of JBL guitar 12" speakers; The D-series (until 1973), the K-series (1974-1979), the E-series (1979-1980s). These are mind blowing speakers way to expensive to build and sell today. The speakers are:
D120F (8 Ohm), Alnico, 35-100W
K120 (4 Ohm), Alnico, 150W
E120 (8 Ohm), Ceramic, 300W
I'm using a Gibson Les Paul 1959 Standard Reissue and a Fender 60 CS Relic Telecaster though a ToneKing Royalist MkIII. The cab is a Marshall JCM800 4010 (only cabinet).
Close mics: EV-RE10 and Unidyne IV 548
Room mic: AKG C414BXLII
Hallway mic: ADK small condenser
My original amp Fender Twin Reverb 1973 came with two D120s.....best speakers I've ever heard bar none....still have the amp bought it new back in 1973.... I'm that old
The Orange frame D120F is actually a K120, they both have the treated cloth surround. All paper cones were on the gray frame D120F.
Great tones and an interesting video as usual! All sounded great but loved the mid-rangy tone of the E120 the best. Must be the gazillion pound/kilo magnet! Keep 'em comin'. Cheers!
super looking forward to this! Ive done shootouts between JBL and other speakers, but not a trifecta like this of all JBL’s.
Johan, I really appreciate you reviews of such a wide range of equipment. Your review of the E120 speakers
Brought back memories of my younger days when I used a old Sound city 4 x12 cabinet loaded with 4 E120 speakers it sounded great but it was a beast to lug up a flight of stairs.
I had the opportunity to play a 1962 cab with a fender bandmaster, it had two D120s.....listening on UA-cam is great but what I experienced in the room was incredible, a tsunami of sound and tone...... using a les paul.
Thanks! Yeah louder is always better!
Thank you MR Segeborn, love this content !
Thanks, glad to hear it!
D120 sounds incredible, great video!
Thanks Andrea! Glad to hear it
Nice work! I used to have a pair of 80's 300 watt MI series JBLs running stereo in two open back cabs. It was awesome.
Thanks! Cool are those full range?
@@JohanSegeborn I don't think they were full range. I think the MI stood for Musical Instrument and it was something they did for just for guitars and bass. I might be wrong though. They still pop up on Reverb and eBay.
I have the E120’s as a grateful dead fan but I think the K’s sound best in your setup. Awesome video! Thanks.
Cool video Johan. I could barely tell a difference between each with the Les Paul, but I preferred the K with the Tele. Good sounding speakers all around. God bless and rock on 🎸😎👍
Thanks J! Glad you like it. Rock on!
Great tones from the amp through those speakers!!!
Glad to hear that!
Oooh this looks promising!
A few months ago I found myself nerding out on these speakers, since I wanted a D120F IR to mix it with my Greenback IRs, and do the Van Halen thing 😂. But I couldn't find any not made in a Fender cab, that was a bummer.
Regardless, I came across lots of information from Harvey Gerst himself, the engineer who designed the original D series for instruments. He was active in the old Usenet newsgroups, and some people collected his answers in some more modern forums. Searching his name gives a lots of results, a good read.
Regarding the surrounding, it seems it's correct that it's made of cloth in the D120F. Paper ones are regarded by other people as early models. Here I paste this answer:
------ Quote 1
Q. Dick Dale seems to be the one claiming Fender went to JBL on behalf of him. In "Fender Sound Heard Around the World" he's quoted as saying the "F was invented as a result of melting voice coils & destroying surrounds". It's also stated that "the aluminum dust cover was Leo's idea". In his 9/96 GP interview he talks of the 'Dick Dale' kit available from JBL which includes a larger magnet, larger voice coil, thicker wires, aluminum dust cover, & rubberized front rim which brings the speaker (presumably a D130) up to Dick Dale & Fender specs! I'll be 'kind' and say that he comes off as 'a bit arrogant' in the interview!
A. I never had the honor of meeting or talking to Dick Dale, so I'd have to say that perhaps his memory has been clouded by the passing years. It's true that the JBL F series was partly about improving the current 2 models being used by Fender and others, namely the D130 and D131. It was my proposal to expand the line of speakers and at the same time, make some refinements to those speakers to make them more suitable to the guitar market. Here's what I did and why:
Opened the voice coil gap slightly on the D130F to allow more tolerance in mounting. Most people didn't realize that even though 8 mounting holes were available, only using four is the recommended mounting. And you don't screw them down tight to the board - that warps the frame. You use two fingers to do the final tightening - the casket will them complete the seal. When you warp the frame by overtightening, the voice coil can go out of round and eventually drag and short out. I opened the gap slightly to allow for this problem with just a very slight loss in efficiency - less than 1 dB.
Did the same thing on the D131 (and renamed as the D120F).
Using parts from the D130A and D150 woofers, I created a new woofer designed for bass guitar applications called the D140F. This had a copper voice coil and an aluminum dome.
Using the magnet assembly from the D123 and the basket from an LE-10, I added the D110F to complete the line of musical instrument speakers.
The surrounds were NOT "rubberized". JBL had developed a high viscosity coating to add to the existing hifi line of speakers that reduced ringing. I used it for a different reason. The hifi speaker surrounds dried out when exposed to excessive sunlight and heat, and I reasoned the viscose coating (we called it "goop" back then) would help prevent that.
------ END of quote 1
Then this is what I came across about recones:
------ Quote 2
The D120F---(designed for guitar amps) 35 to 100 watts, again, frequency dependent. VC gap is widened and has slightly less efficency. Finest guitar speaker in history, until the EV 12L was issued.
The K and E series (both discontinued as well) were designed to meet the ever increasing need for more power handling capacity. Guitarists in the 60's and 70's pushed every limit of the speaker by using bigger and more powerful amplifiers. What happened? The sound of the original changed. For better or worse is people’s opinion. Voice coil former material had to be changed to a material that could withstand and dissapate more heat. The original paper former was changed to Aluminum ( K series --black frame--very bright - almost brittle sound). Hey, but now the guitarist had 150 watts continuous per speaker with the K series. Also, the cone is thicker and the cloth surround enters the picture and the classic D120 sound changes some more.
Then with the E series the voice coil former material changed again to the marvelous Dupont Kapton plastic (more mellow sound than the aluminum but still quite different than the original paper/nomex former) Power is raised again to 300 watts continuous. 1979 ---The alnico structure of the D&K series is gone due to the rising cost of cobalt. The cheaper, much heavier ceramic magnet structure is introduced. The aluminum former of the K series still exists and is used on the first E series until Kapton. The edgewound, very light weight, aluminum voice coil has remained. The cone is thicker. The adhesives and varnishes were improved.
The original D had an untreated paper surround (cone) and a paper voice coil former. When Fender began purchasing and putting the D series speakers in their amplifiers, they worked great---except---the surround eventually cracked and split. (again, those brutal guitarists, paper quality and atmospheric conditions) So, JBL began putting black, gooey dope on the surround to dampen overtones as well as keep it supple and flexible. Those surrounds still broke down sooner than they liked. Enter the treated cloth surround (late D series and used all the way up through K and the recently discontinued E series)--- Finally got it right but what did it do to the sound? It changed the paramaters of the speaker to a greater low end capacity which gives the listener the impression of less midrange. The high end sparkle is still there. A different cone affected the midrange as well. The voicing is further away still from the original sound.
D120F made for Fender in the early 60’s had orange dust cap. It was a purchase option, possibly for the Dual Showman. The original aluminum dust cap was not added just for appearance. It also serves as a heat sink heat and raises the power capacity as well as enhancing the mid-hi output.
There was also a orange range label, grey frame D120F with Fender logo. By the way, Fender had JBL to paint their frames orange for a period. If they ran out of orange paint on a batch, they used the standard grey. Other than cosmetics there is no difference in the speakers.
E speaker kit is presently the only offering from JBL to recone the D and K series. The quality is impeccable. It has a thicker cone and the plastic Kapton former material.
CAUTION: When considering purchasing a "vintage speaker" with the original cone: You must know that speakers as old a the D and K series need to be reconed regardless of their reported condition. Cone, spider and former paper dry-rot. The spider fatigues/collapses over time allowing the voice coil to drop too low in the gap. If you plan to put this speaker in active service you must know that it will not sound up to its potential and the likelyhood of failure is high. Collectors, of course, leave them as is.
------ END of quote 2
And this is some summary about different speaker features in the series:
------ Quote 3
JBL D131/D120 High-Level Specs
- Originally with a 131-404 (D131), 21032 (D120) part number untreated paper surround cone
- 25 to 50 watts approximate continuous power handling depending on the frequency
- 102 dB sensitivity
- 4" voice coil with a .053" gap
- AlNiCo magnet
- 13.5 lbs
JBL D120F (Including Orange Frame) High-Level Specs
- Originally with a 21032 part number untreated paper surround cone later was replaced with a treated cloth surround which is a different tone compared to paper surround (more bass, less perceived mids, still sparkly top end)
- 35 to 100 watts approximate continuous power handling depending on the frequency
- 101 dB (paper surround) 103 dB (cloth surround) sensitivity
- 4" voice coil with a .057" gap. Reduces efficiency slightly over D131/Early D120s.
- AlNiCo magnet
- 13.5 lbs
JBL K120 High-Level Specs
- Treated cloth surround which is a different tone compared to paper surround (more bass, less perceived mids, still sparkly top end)
- 150 watts approximate continuous power handling depending on the frequency
- 103 dB sensitivity
- 4" voice coil
- AlNiCo magnet
- 12 lbs
JBL E120 High-Level Specs
- Treated cloth surround which is a different tone compared to paper surround (more bass, less perceived mids, still sparkly top end)
- 300 watts approximate continuous power handling depending on the frequency
- 103 dB sensitivity
- 4" voice coil
- Ceramic magnet
- 22 lbs
------ END of quote 3
I'll try pasting the links to this information in a comment to this comment, so I don't risk this one being automatically marked as spam.
Thanks! That’s great info. I really appreciate it!
I have a pair of orange basket, Fender labeled E120 sitting in an empty Twin Reverb combo cab from about 1980 (I rehoused the amp chassis into a headshell). They're in almost mint condition, but seem stuck to the baffle. Some day I'll manage to get them out of there and post them for sale. I also have an Ampeg VT22 2x12 combo that had K120s in it when I got it. That thing makes a Twin Reverb seem light! I sold those and put a pair of Emi Swamp Thangs in it.
Also the 15" models share the same magnets as the 12" speakers. The K140 is one of the nicest bass guitar speakers
e-120 at -55 to -30 Killer beautiful configuration .also the play out was amazing
Thanks!
Have you ever tried a D120 in a 5e3 tweed type of circuit? Great video man, I love the D120 best!
Johan, the d120f cone that you have is original..
the orange 70's had a cloth cone, and they were transparent on the edges. i had 3 of those
if it has the 21032 code on the back of the cone its original. nice video!
Never heard of these... But they have that "Spirit in the sky" vibe going on... like it!
The K-120 is my favourite! It sounds wild and more open. Cheers Johan!
Thanks Fabrizio, Cheers!
Great video Johan! I would also love to hear this shootout in a silverface fender
I have D120s and D130s in my silverface amps except my bandmaster has the E120s!
300watts whoooo my bandmaster got suped up to have a twin output transformer and a few extra tubes so it’s as loud as a twin 🤯
Interesting comparison. The D120 and K120 have a similar tone. When the K120 was released it had an edge-wound voicecoil that gave it a much higher power rating and it doesn't seem to have hurt the tone. The E120 seems to have the treble rolled off a lot compared to the older speakers - more of a hi-fi sound to me, it doesn't seem to have the dymanics the others have. I'd go for the D or K myself and leave the E to the PA.
Awesome comparison! The Telecaster with the JBL's sounds like a much better match to my ears. It seems like JBL's in general like single coils better to help get that bright pop...I went back and forth between the D and K.
Thanks! Glad to hear that
all these speakers sound great but so different. D120 has classic tones, so does the K120. Back when I was working on 48th Street in the late 70s, Fender amps would offer the option of stock E120s and my gosh those amps weighed a ton! I always thought of the E120s to be more suited to jazz guitar, PA systems and keyboard amps I always thought they sounded stiff for rock guitar especially when new, but they do sound great for guitar . I was surprised how good the K120 sounded, never heard them in person. Thanks for sharing, Johan, take care!
Thanks Mark! Yeah I think they are perhaps a bit too exact for guitars. I love them for bass actually. Cheers!
I've got 4 e120's in a fender rock pro 1000 cabinet.
I don't move it around much.
I had a K-120 in my Randall RG-80, I couldn’t tame the highs, even turning down the treble and presence, there was a frequency that would always come through. The cleans with it were amazing though, when you were playing your Les Paul I was waiting for that hi freq peak, amazing how you dialed it in, but when you used your tele you hear the brightness of the K-120, bright but not piercing. Great combo with that amp.
Thanks! Yeah the K120 has lots of presence
Thanks. The K sounded much better than I was expecting vs the D. Sounds like something was way different in the settings on the second round, the D seems to have been a much quieter signal for that round.
Thanks!
Orange-frame D120Fs and K120s are the same speaker. JBL discontinued the non-F D120 and made the "Improved" D120F a regular factory offering as the K120, rather than an exclusive just for Fender.
The D 120 will always be my favorite but the others are great in they're own way. Cheer from Hawaii. Darrell
That orange frame D120 is actually a K120 in every way. Not sure why JBL still called it a D. To get a true D120 you would need a grey frame D120 with the single hump, all paper cone. The K changed to a cloth, double hump surround
Thanks, I suspected that!
@JohanSegeborn Almost impossible to find an all original D120 in good working condition as the all-paper surrounds don't last long and eventually fail from the paper deteriorating. Hence JBL switching to the fabric surround. I've had a few original D's that were still functional and I would describe them as being a little warmer with a more pronounced "vocal" midrange, and a little less bottom and top. Not as spiky in the treble. You can sometimes find vintage grey frame D131's, which came before the D120 and were used in home stereo systems. They have the same all-paper surround and can often be found in good shape since they didn't get abused in guitar amps at high volume. That might be the best way to experience the true D120 tone. Just beware they can't take much wattage without blowing up!
The D have that wide-open sound that is so coveted. The K is pretty close, maybe just a tad more closed in, but definitely in the same league.
The E is a different speaker entirely. Maybe it needs more power to truly shine.
Thanks, any speaker will sound dark or muffled back to back with a D120, so maybe the E120 would sound closer with a bit more presence rolled up on the amp
@@JohanSegebornAny speaker? Even an EV?
Hi, Johan!
I worked a lot with JBL, 17 years ago..Allways liked E-120, k- series are not bad too. Of course if they were used correctly!))) See you!
Siegfried
Thanks man! Yeah these do indeed need the amp to be tweaked right to not sound harsh! Cheers
The K-120 with the Tele...Awesome!!!
Thanks!
If you can, you should try to track down an EV Force 12 if you like the high powered speakers. They sound to me like a cross between a 12L and a vintage 30. Great tight low end but a crazy aggressive mid punch. Great video! The E120 is possibly the best guitar speaker ever made!
Thanks Gregory! I’ll look for one
I'd love to see the same video with the 130 series! 😊 In this video, the slightly sweeter nature of the D120 won for me.
I have to find a K130 and then I’ll post it!
@@JohanSegeborn Great! Can't wait to see 😊
That D 120 was definitely reconed with an E Kit.... I purchased 2 Original D120'S From Missing Link Audio and combined with 2 K120'S and the tones together just cant be beat...
I'd like to put one of these in some modeling amps.
All 3 sound fantastic! I think the D has a bit wider midrange. The K seems to have a bit more low end and is more scooped on the mids. The Alnico's always sound sweeter that the ceramic. But I would be happy with any of them.
Thanks glad to hear it!
As far as I can tell, Johnn Squire of The Stone Roses recorded using modded fender twin (tone stack bypass I think) with E-120s. Helluva sound. I tried E-120 with hot rod deluxe but it was too harsh withbthat amp.
Interesting! Thanks
Interesting comparison. The K was nice with the les Paul, but a bit too much on the higher side with the tele.
Hard to choose. To me at least, it sounds like the D is more of an all-rounder sounding good with both the tele and the LP
Thanks! Glad to hear it
Hi,
If you can, you should try to track down an Jbl M121.
thanks
Hello. Very nice comparison as always. The D and the K sound very close to me on this video and I like them both. The k seems to be a bit warmer. Didn’t like the E. Too much top end roll off. Lacks clarity and definition to me.
Thanks! Glad to hear it.
only one of these gives me a nostalgic flutter in the stomach. fill up a twin reverb with the e120s and you'll be able to cancel your gym membership. i was unaware of the power-handling variation with frequency. many thanks, johan.
Thanks! ;-)
Nice video again. I go for the D 120 ( was it a open or closed cab ?)
Thanks! Its a semi open cab!
They all sound good and very different from each other I think that it would sound Good with a standard greenback tone in the opposite channel in a stereo mix
Thanks Vinnie! Yeah JBL and greenbacks are great complements
D120, the sound of ROOOOCK!! ...The K is a good alternative. The E sounds a bit too "clean"/tamed for my personal taste. Wonder if these sound changes are only due to the increased power handling?? I have the K 120 in an early Silverface Pro Reverb. It kills!
Johan, please do a 15" shoot out! I use two D130s of those in a 2x15 Fender Showman cab and a JTM45 style amp with an SG. I'm VERY satisfied with this setup (although it IS heavy to lug around ; ) . . Lately I was thinking of throwing my K130 in a Bassman square cab. Wonder what to pair it with...maybe some Celestion might go well with the JBL. ...but which one???!!! Any suggestions anybody?
Great video, as always!!
Thanks! I Will FP the 15” version too soon i hope . Maybe an EVM15L?
...for my ears K wins, half step down D and E on the end. Great video (as usual)
Thanks Adrian! Glad you like it
The JBL D-120 was a more expensive option for the Super Beatle cabinet in the 60s. Now they are cheaper than the vintage Celestions, so I am going to populate a couple of the 4x12s with JBL cones and enjoy the lack of break-up. Choices. 🤘
Thanks, interesting info
Those on the market are generally recones which may not have the high-end detail of the originals. You might consider K120 because the voice coil gap isn't as tight. D120's tended to burn out easily. That's why they developed the K120, which has less high end anyway.
D and K are very simila,r E a little more muffled however they sound fantastic. one riff with tele reminded me heart shaped box 🥰
Thanks man, glad you noticed the riff
Johan...the orange frame Fender/JBL D120F is actually a K120. It never had the all paper one piece cone that the gray frame D131F/D120F had. So...all three speakers here basically have the same cone. The latest gray frame D120F also transitioned to the Nomex voice coil former about 1972. Orange D120F had either Nomex or Kapton former. E120 used a composite Kapton/Aluminum foil voice coil former.
A little history revision here:
ua-cam.com/video/kIdQhiPdx6I/v-deo.htmlsi=4g02GWwZ3mrhX3pG
I like the K myself, but I like bright clear speakers.
Thanks Scotty!
So the orange frame D and black frame K are identical speakers. A real D120f would have the doped paper surround and they do sound different. Still excellent
I think the K120 just had a wider voice coil gap to keep it from overheating. That's why it has less high-end. The D120 tended to burn out easily.
Thanks! That seems logical with the big difference in power handling
Hi, Johan; I love your channel, but why mike the center of the dust cap? No one ever does that. The sound is made by the flat parts of the paper speaker cone.
JBL did an E-120 with all paper it was called the G125-8. Very good sounding speaker! The Beyma Liberty is an absolute spectacular E-120 clone. Duane used the D-120’s and of that he had gotten from Rick Hall from Fame Studios in Muscle Shoals Alabama. They were D-120F cause they were outta some Fender cabinets originally. Duane’s cabinets had (4) 4 inch holes in the back of the cabinets each one directly behind them each speaker location to help roll off bass response. A crude way of porting a speaker cabinet but we’re also talking about 50+ years ago
would you suggest G125's over a more modern speaker? ive been hunting cabs and got offered a matching pair of Vertical ported 2x12's with 4 G125-8's in them. I cant find much info on the G series in general. Are the closest to the E120's in tone? also anything I should look out for when buying them?
@@9bigheads : Sorry brother for the late response. Depends of what you’re going for. If you wanna get that Duane sound or early Skynyrd sound then get D’s or K’s or an Altec 417 A,B or C. Heck an E serious will get you there just turn up volume a tad and turn bass up mid down and treb down. The G was wonderful sounding speaker but I fell into them by mistake actually. It’s a JBL where’s it’s got that clarity but it’s warmer without that familiar JBL cutting initial bite they’re known for. The thing about JBL guitar musical speakers are most of them have what’s called “Cone Cry” which leads people to think sometimes a JBL is blown but it’s really not. Certain frequencies make a JBL cry or moan and it has to do with those aluminum dust caps. Also make sure if you’re using more than one JBL in the same cab that they’re wired correctly. JBL’s a lot of times had Red as “Negative” and Black as “Positive”
I purchased 4 e 120's a few years ago. All four were a recone. Two with the metal dust cover two with a paper.
The paper dust cover ones sound better, less brite.
One problem, mounting 4 of these in one 4-12 cabinet.
Heavy and needs internal bracing and modifications.
@@jesse75 : Absolutely love the paper cones on JBL’s. Yes, Heavy As Hell!
My understanding is that Jimi was using JBL D120's latter in his career, i do like it over the others
Cool! I saw he used Showmans with JBL D130 or 140 in them live. Did he use 12” JBLs too?
Guess it's a master of taste, but i like D120. I saw that Musikbörsen have just got in 68 twin with jbls, I have try it.
Thanks! Cool that’s very close to the Twin Keith used to record brown sugar I think
Prefer that K120... love that "perceived loudness" in your face mid sound 😎🍻🤘
Thanks! Cheers
D120 ❤
Thanks! :-)
killer
Thanks!
Orange frame D120F has the same cone with cloth surrounding as the K120. Original Grey frame D120F has paper surrounding and sounds different, more chewy and fat
The cable in your mouth is funny. Pro tip: It’s supposed to go behind your back. That’s why it’s so long. 👍
Hahaha! Some logistical problems there
The D sounded better to me with the Les Paul and the K sounded best with the Tele.
Thanks Raymond!
JBL K-120 is the Lynyrd Skynyrd Peavey Mace speaker
I heard they used E120's too. (that's from their tech, Joe Barnes, on Scribd)
Yo, Han Solo! ; )
they get progressively more treble from D to E
No....they don't.
How can you possibly say that?
Try paper cones on these jbl
The K for me, D next. E not so much.
D120 most dynamic by far. K will work but less dynamic and less real bass. F - not competitive imho...
Thanks!