a kid doing drag? (basically playing dress up?) yes a kid performing at a night club? no. a kid modeling for a kink clothing? no. there's a line. i don't think it's that hard to see the line.
I find girls being sexualised for beauty pageants pretty repulsive, tons of make up to make them look older, the faux coquettish behaviour just gross. it's totally hypocritical to not feel the same way when it happens to young boys.
beauty pagents are indeed creepy, but its not hypocritical to hate one more than the other men and women are biologically different, we are not equal, we do not have the same roles in society
007kingifrit I'm not sure where I made the point that we are the same??? But thinking the sexualisation of boys is ok, but not girls (or visa versa) would be hypocritical no?
007kingifrit dude what do the pieces of cloth that we put on our bodies have anything to do with biology. I can totally agree that men and women have biological differences (obviously) but you're making a hollow argument.
I'm a 22 year old gay man, and I'm a big fan of drag queens and drag culture in general, but I do have to agree with Ian here, for the most part. I wouldn't say that drag is inherently sexual, I mean some drag queens like Max (from season 7 of Drag Race), make a point of distancing themselves from the more risqué parts of the culture. But it's hard to deny that Lactatia is being sexualized. The name "Lactatia" itself is obviously a reference to female breasts, and I don't think it's just a coincidence that his signature look consists of evening gowns and very prostitute-esque makeup. To me, a toned-down version of drag might be perfectly fine for children, but this is just inappropriate, and it does seem to be much more oriented toward an adult audience.
Ya I think Laci is naively thinking that dressing up in drag is the same as drag culture. I never met a drag queen that wasn't overtly sexual (often times purposely to the point of uncomfortability of others) while in character. A child doesn't need to be around that in my opinion.
i mean i can see room for a discussion but when people say drag isn't sexual i am very very much inclined to feel like i'm being fed a line. not accusing you, i can see you're thinking about it just looking for your opinion. like you're gay, alright, but when people say gay people are just like straight people...no ya'lls relationships work waaaaay differently on average the whole culture is different and when you make people feel bad for stating the obvious it is a conversation stopper. kids dressing up is very different than drag, and the sexual culture of drag is that difference
You are very right. Nobody who is against this kid doing drag is against drag or homosexuality. I say let everyone do what they want. As long as you don't bother me. I find it troublesome that a kid is being paraded around like something to gloat over. His drag persona is much more adult then he actually is and should not be encouraged. His drag name and behavior both are sexualized. I understand the drag community will not say anything against it in general but even they think twice before answering if you see anyone answer. They know it is wrong.
parents pressuring kids into drag? Bad Kids basing their lives around drag? Concerning Anything to do with kids relating to anything to do with anything sexual? Bad Kids wanting to dress up as the opposite gender for fun? Acceptable The lines are mostly pretty clear if you ask me.
Cameron Myers I wonder what youd say if your kids wanted to do drugs for fun or ruin their future social life just because they so someone on tv doing stuff
there's a clear difference between dressing up for fun with your friends or by yourself and shooting heroin and meth. If you don't see it then you're intentionally deluding yourself.
To me there is a difference between a child dressing up as the opposite gender and performing in a night club, that's not an appropriate place for a child. The reason for the outrage is this, if this child parents were just letting their kid dress up and encouraging this, that would be one thing. But we can't be sexualizing kids.
I think the act of dressing up/dressing in drag is fine, I just think it gets weird when it becomes a public spectacle. It's the same as child beauty pageants to me. dressing up and wearing makeup only gets weird when they're in a situation where adults are then judging them on their performance. it's not just for fun anymore.
Child beauty pageant contests came to my mind as well... If someone thinks that kids in drag is unacceptable, then they really should think the same thing about these contests. I'd say that putting a child to compete with other kids of beauty, covering them with makeup, making them look 'adult', and exposing them to pedofiles and whatnot is far more harmful that a kid basically playing dress up.
How is this kid doing drag any different than theese mums that push their kids onto shoes like toddlers in tiara's. Cant agree with one and not the other.
I mean, I don't know much about this particular child; But there is definitely a difference from children just exploring and expressing themselves (with their parents support) and parents pushing their child into fame or raising them to a certain mould.
And I absolutely hate kid beauty pageants. I think that children should be able to dress up, but I don't like it when they are performed in front of an audience and grouped into the adults that do it. Lactacia has been on the same shows that adults have been in. I'm fine with him doing drag, but he's not ready for performance imo.
Chantelle YT Yeah. I feel that both, as long as it doesn't become too sexual and the *kid* is having fun, it is fine. But if the parent pushes the kids to do it or forces them to act sexual, it isn't okay to me. The kid should also have to be at least ten for these things and if the kid wants a sex change, they need to wait until their eighteen. I mean, if an adult can feel uncomfortable, regret, or change their mind, than a kid definitely can.
Are the parents pushing drag onto the kids though? I know I use to dress up a lot and so did my little brother. We didn't tell him to do it and my grandma even made slight criticisms of it before she became more understanding. He continued to do it because he enjoyed it but he grew out of it. I'm sure some kids will continue and that's okay too. Why does this have to be such a big deal? A kid that likes to perform is absolutely okay too. If a kid likes wearing what they wear, I don't see that as big of a problem. It's only an issue when it's coerced. These shows generally require that they imitate someone behaving sexually and the parents force the kids into it. Drag is closer to letting your kid do theater or dance than it is toddlers in tiaras where things like beauty are being assessed.
I have no problem with the kid himself dressing up of his own accord. I'm mostly pissed that the parents are parading him around like this-- I mean, he couldn't be on that magazine cover without their written permission. Dress up is just something kids do, but I do think encouraging kids to think about sexuality before puberty is rushing them. Childhood is the most worry-free part of life. Pushing kids to think about something that is presented to them as incredibly important is just cruel-- not saying abuse, but mean isn't a strong enough word. Drag queens can be great fun, and are typically cool people. I don't think anywhere near all of the people supporting this kid are pedos. Some probably are, simply as a matter of statistics, but I'd guess that's less than 10%.
No, I really can't get down with children in drag. It seems to me a little convenient here that drag is being deemed "not sexualised" when it involves children- even whilst it's being held up as a cornerstone of the *sexual* liberation movement. Regardless of it being gay or straight, it's inappropriate to put children in that position. And kids playing dress up in their own home is very different to being rolled out on stage for politically exploitative reasons.
Nate McMillin they're pretty despicable, especially when you can tell the parent is forcing the kid - for example, i once saw a clip on T&T where this mum made this child who was probably around 6-7 years old get her eyebrows waxed and the entire time she was screaming at them to stop but the mum convinced the waxers to keep going... turned out the wax they were using was actually too hot and it tore off some of her skin. like, the fact that the mother would make her kid go through that is some gross shite, man
There is a difference between... - A child playing dress up. - And children dancing in public in suggestive ways. I am sure people would be outrage if a young girl would Strip Dancing in a Strip Club.
greenteasenpai then you haven't been paying attention. "Dancing suggestively"=/=being turned on. I can say someone is dressed like a hooker without wanting to have sex
gabriel montreuil a kid mimicking an adult dancing is hardly dangerous is it? and what's wrong with lactation? isn't lactating one of the world's most natural phenomena? why does it make you uncomfortable, why do you relate it to sex in your mind.
+Dean Campos Also if performing as a drag queen is expressing yourself... what the hell is this kid trying to express when he is dancing like a striper?
I never thought I had a problem with DRAG because my mother was a seamstress and most of her clients were queens so I was exposed to men in gowns and costumes at an early age and never really thought it was odd. However, seeing that little boy and others like him makes me incredibly sad, and makes me question my values on the entire concept.
Native Daughter There is absolutely nothing wrong with grown men doing it. But children shouldn't. People consider Playboy to be art, should we let children in that magazine too?
Why is it sad? You grew up around it, like you said, and you didn't see anything wrong with it. Doubtless your parents would have let you do it too if you wanted.
If a girl of the same age would dress like this, I think a lot more people would consider it sexual. High heels and so much makeup are not appropriate at that age, regardless of gender. Nor is such intense social media activity. Dress up really is about having fun and self expression, but it doesn't mean that there shouldn't be boundaries. If you wouldn't allow your daughter to dress up like a hooker, it's probably a bad idea to allow it to your son.
I'd think the same people being against this boy doing drag would be against little girls doing those child beauty pageants. There have always been fears that these children are being sexualized, exploited, and abused. Especially as anyone can be taking photos of the children at these events and posting them online for the world to see. It doesn't mean that the children don't like getting dressed up and competing. It just might mean that a little more regulation and oversight may be needed. It is disturbing when you do go on the House of Mann's etsy page and see a child in a onesie and then scroll down and see a model with his hands down his boxer shorts :0 0_o Just think of the press coverage if H&M or Macy's was caught with a page like that.
I think a big factor in this which could be feeding this child is the fame and notoriety associated with him doing drag. It has huge potential to create an emotional validation seeking attitude in his love of drag. Rather than just his inherent joy and hobby for drag.
Yeah, I can't deny that. But I'm also trying to bring forth the idea that his/her interest in performing drag might be just a phase per his age, but by feeding emotional validation on doing drag could create a false desire to continue drag. But yes, by all means, child actors, singers could go through the same emotional issues and this child might not even develop the type of emotional problems which I am implying could happen. So yeah, good point you bring up.
Honestly, I don't have a problem with children doing drag alone. (However, I am worried for the possibility of them getting confused about their sexuality at a young age, which I think is a bigger problem than people realize.) But if a kid is going to be placed on an *erotic magazine* that needs to be stopped *immediately.* We need to stop sexualizing children, seriously.
@ Jhonn Clements confusion about sexuality and gender is a huge issue in the trans community. there are even grown men who are getting confused with their sexuality. a prime example is trevor moran, who recently made a video titled "My Gender" and said that he thought he was transgender, just because he liked to play with dresses and do his makeup. I've also seen another video where there was a complete montage of people saying the same thing, however I can't remember the name of it atm. There is also that other kid who thought he was trans, because again he liked to play with dresses and such, so he transitioned to a female. Now he's transitioning back to male, because he said he made a huge mistake and was just confused. My philosophy is that if grown men are getting confused about these things, then we should be incredibly careful about children doing these things. I'm fine with experimenting, and learning from a younger age, but we still need to take it at slow steps.
*sigh* no, sexuality and gender are more or less the same thing. and yes, being drag means playing with makeup and dressing up as a female, so it's borderline trans. i'm not confused at all, but thanks.
Cinnamon The Cat you clearly are because sexuality and gender are not the same thing. Who or what I am is not the same as who or what I may or may not be attracted to.
Appropriate for kids to do drag? Hell no. They wanna play dress up sure. If the parents take that idea and parade them around to garner attention, which is exactly what their parents are doing, then that is indeed child abuse.
No it's not OK. If your kid comes up to you and want's to wear a dress, fine. Let them wear a dress. Your kid wants to go do drag shows? No. If they are a teenager, that's different, but that is not something a prepubescent child should be doing in front of crowds.
Encouraging someone to do something doesn't mean forcing it on them. If I had a kid, I'd cheer them on no matter how they led their life, because I want them to feel loved and feel confident in themself and their choices. Children are free to quit the whole scene if they no longer want to continue, and that's fine. Encouraging them doesn't mean punishing them for quitting.
So if your kid would hate gey people and be a bully, beat up other kids you would cheer and support them ? It doesn't work that way, you mold your kid in to something that will be better than you , and they can feel loved and confident while doing so.
I forgot what dialogue was like on this channel's comment section. Ok: Yes, kids dress up in drag naturally and explore themselves naturally. But we don't need _infrastructure_ or an agenda to encourage it. We don't need to put them on tv as role models for other children. And we should not, as a society, exploit the passive sexual energy of children, even if it makes us money. I'm looking at you Disney.
Mike C Even if drag was coerced, it would be the coercion not the drag. He's off topic, we aren't talking coercion, were talking DRAG! Also, why isn't he as outraged about young girls being made to wear makeup and wigs. Remember: the child's gender should not be relevant to the choices he can make! "Drag in general is sexuality gay" citation needed. "There are gonna be adults that get turned on" who? How do you know? And wouldn't that happen without drag? His tactics is to say pedophiles might be attracted to children. That's dumb. Pedophiles are attracted to children with or without drag. The things he said about plastic genitalia and sex toys are irrelevant. The topic is DRAG. He never provides evidence drag is coerced or inherently sexual. Lacy: "I think Ian made some fair points here." Which?
"encouraging" is a complicated word here. With children, you have to say "no" sometimes but at the same time you should have an actual GOOD reason for it and I won´t say that there is one for drag per se. I do think this is a case where you should at least go the "are you sure about that?" route. On the other hand, you might also have to counterbalance an outside "no" children receive if you see that this is something they really care about. I don´t have a problem with what the children do, my problems start when you put them out in public and certain environments. The drag community is not set up to be a "safe space" for kids and when it comes to children I do think this is where you should actually ask yourself the question "is that a safe space?". We had Pedophiles on fucking MINECRAFT servers. And I would say that drag is just a TINY bit more sexual than your average "art", however this does not mean there can´t be a way for children to essentially play "Dress-up 2.0" without being sexualized. Maybe that´s just me but the "putting it out in public" part is the one that really makes me... a bit worried. Just look at how Child-Movie Stars tend to turn out (granted that might also be due to being fiddled by a director, pedophilia in Hollywood is something that probably should be looked into)
The issue I have is the kid was in a night club in the video I seen and in the gay pride parades around me sexual things around places with adults being sexual is no place for kids
Putting on a wig is not "sexualization", but putting tons of makeup that accentuate sexual signifiers (blush, lipstick, eyeliner, etc.) definitely is. Stuff like lipstick and blush simulate and exaggerate sexual arousal, while stuff like eyeliner makes the eyes stand out to look more seductive. That is the function of this type of makeup. Putting it on kids (regardless of gender--including preteen Beauty Pageants for girls) IS sexualization.
Tough subject. Personally I think it does sexualize him even if drag isn't inherently sexual. I think the positive feedback/conditioning will likely lead to a place where some adult will take advantage of him. Same with children's pageants. I don't think Drag can be equated with normal dress up. It's political and sexual. If not, it wouldn't even be discussed. The boy is obviously gay. Drag or no drag will not change that. Can you imagine the same commotion being made over a kid who dresses like Batman? Maybe I'm paranoid or overprotective but being progressive for progressives sake is ridiculous. We know pedo's are opportunistic. I don't really trust any situation where adults befriend children like this, acting, pageants, etc. If he wants to dress up, let him dress up with people his own age and just be a kid. It's the involvement of adults with their own agendas (be it sexual, political, social or other) that bothers me. As innocuous as it may be, adults will poison the well with their own bias. That goes for the opposite side too. By letting adults get involved he could be subjected to hate and anger and all sorts of negativity for expressing himself. Just my 2 cents. Let kids be kids. Don't politicize them with stupid signs at rallies they don't understand. Don't take actions or sentiments of a child as support for your side. Kids are dumb and gullible and silly. They believe what they hear repeated most from their most trusted source. They don't make up their own minds. We're social creatures and they're in the process of conforming. Most don't seem to make it out of that stage anymore.
The drag scene isn't for kids, that's why. Kids shouldn't be at clubs and hanging around with older crowds like that. They need to be kids doing kid things. When he's older and can handle himself, if he wants to go that route, more power to him, but not so young.
My only concern is the nightclubs the mom is taking him to. I love drag culture and I used to go out with my friends to the shows. Many were in the shows. They are clubs for adults so of course drinking is going on and sexual things are brought up often. Which is fine. Because everyone is adults. It's different when you start throwing kids in the mix. If kids are doing this outside of that it doesn't really bother me. The issue is mixing the adult aspect with the child aspect. Like him being in that very obvious adult clothing site and night clubs.
blazednlovinit Teenagers have at least gone through puberty. They understand what it is to have sexuality and sexual desires. Children have no such understanding.
cripwhaa, I'm pretty sure the most people are against pageants. Most of the time it's just used for fun. But it is taken way to far by some. Same as every other activity. That is why it's not a good idea to let a kid do drag. Because it's a bad idea to even let them do pageants.
that erotic clothing ad is disgusting. i dont mind kids being gender nonconforming but a media circus around children in high heels and makeup is concerning (male or female, i am not ok with shows like dance moms or toddlers in tiaras either).
Laci, I like you but I think you're missing the point here. I don't think the issue is so much about a kid "playing dress up", as you put it, any more than child beauty pageants are. When little girls are caked with tons of make up and glitter and marched out publicly for the approval of strangers, we recognize that its super creepy and more than likely inadvertently caters to pedophiles. Do that to a little boy and you're just adding a whole lot of layers of weird to an already uncomfortable practice.
To have an opinion of drag, I had to look up what drag means. I think the fact that drag exaggerates femininity, before a child can really process femininity or masculinity makes me not okay with a child doing drag. Let's remember there's a difference between dressing up (which every child does) and letting your child engage in an act that involves exploration of topics the child can't process. Drag is a performance, not just dress up. I'd definitely let my child play in whatever clothes he/she wanted to as a kid (no makeup..I don't play that), but, not engage in a performance that has a sexual influence, which drag does.
You should really have looked at the financial aspects This kids parents are making a lot of money out of his ‘self expression’ How much choice does he really have in that situation?
when i was a kid i didn't know if i preferred being a girl or a boy, but realistically you dont have a choice in it and once you grow up you'll come to terms with who/what you are, people should never be able to make body identity decisions for a child, you dont know what that childs going to think in 10-20 years you feminists complain about genital mutilation and then you go promoting this crap, srsly wtf
I mean along the lines of sexualizing the boy... wasn't he in an erotic magazine? There's nothing wrong with dressing up or doing drag. I worked at a daycare and we let the boys dress up in dresses (some of the parents actually got mad but we said, they're just playing get over it) but what I do think is wrong is the magazine, even if he was just wearing a sparkly onesie- not appropriate to even be on that magazine.
I find this whole circumstance disgusting. If I might recommend in future, Laci, rather than talking to some random right-winger or drag queen friend of yours on this, talk to a child psychologist. I'm more interested in what a specialist has to say on whether or not this is potentially damaging to a child, than some moral crusader on either side of the political spectrum. I would just say that the issue I would have with this is the fact that you're forcing a child into being confronted with concepts and situations they don't fully understand. I have an issue with child beauty pageants in a similar light given that often times these children are too young to comprehend or consent into situations where often times the objective is to sexualize themselves as much as possible. Or at least make themselves as visually appealing as possible to a crowd of people and a panel of judges. If an adult wants to parade themselves around like a show animal or slab of meat they can, but I think it's fucked up to do it to a child, and even more so to do what is being done to this boy. Given that you are subjecting him to the physical expectations and beauty standards of a mature adult female and surrounding him with people who are lauding over this behavior. He has yet to really define himself as a person and yet he is being subjected to an experience that could potentially damage or otherwise derail his physical and mental development as well as his mental health as he grows up and later in life.
Perhaps get 3 different sources? One for each political side, and one from an scientist/psychologist? That would be the best way. But it might be kind of hard to get a child psychologist to come on and talk about it for free.
Laci is an educational figure with a long list of covered topics. Surely there is a psychologist open to answering a few questions for someone open to talk.
I would agree that it would be helpful to approach an issue from different contexts. But like the one queen and one journalist, their opinions shouldn't be taken as the end all be all opinion for their respective side.
This is basically the same debate we were having years ago with little girls' beauty pageants, and the whole thing came to a boil with the death of Jonbenet Ramsey. Whether it's appropriate or sexualizing to dress children in glamorous outfits for shows was never really settled for a lot of people. So adding the new element of drag is just re-opening an old debate, except that this time, we're being distracted by the fact that drag kind of looks similar enough to transgender issues to make us feel like it's a NEW debate.
Allowing a child to play "dress up" in the privacy of their home is one thing - publicizing it to the adult world is something totally different. Knowing that there are people who specifically target children in and for their sexual desires should make every normal parent wary of putting their child on an adult stage to market adult products or on display for adult viewing. How many children do you think are aware of "Lactacia?" Now, how many adults are and why? This young boy's exhibition is not, and never was, meant for other children to appreciate. Think about that.
From a TransWoman's point of view....Drag Queens is a theatrical profession at it's core. It can be used as an expression of inner emotions or personalized art or just a job. Children in drag....happens a lot in theater and just kids playing dress up. A kid in drag on an exotic magazine?...oh hellz no. That is exploiting the child to pedophiles and using the child to promote being TransPerson as a trend....much like a few UA-camrs I will not name right now. The Religious Extremist comments has caused more damage and I believe has birthed the Left Extremists. Basically extremists are annoying. I love God but I will not accept biblical extremism in my life any more than I would accept atheist extremists telling me I believe in Santa....which I do lol. Laci....you are not dumb...and I love how you are not the extremist you use to be. You are a reasonable person that knows children in drag in an adult magazine is shady as hell.
Liam....She was an extremist. And an atheist that would push their belief on others , same as other religions that would do the same. I understand you want to defend Laci but there was no insult to her.
i mean would you deny there is a sexual element to drag that's not the same as kids playing dressup or gender bending? because when people can't acknowledge there is SOMETHING different, in that specific direction, it really makes it hard to believe folks. it goes completely against observation. at the same time i dont think it's purely a sexual interest, but to say oh it's just like any other art...nah. that makes me feel i'm being lied to
atheism is an extreme o_O extremism just refers to how polarized you are in the realm of some discourse. hardline Christians are at one end and atheism at another for instance. agnostics would be moderate in that spectrum. it doesnt tell you who's right or wrong but extremists tend to be wrong eventually because they lose touch with the culture and dont let in conflicting views which give us all a reality check
Garet...the sexual element comes into play on how they dress and what kind of dance moves the Drag Queen is making. There can be sexual comedies and violent comedies as well. But Drag Queen at it's core is just an artistic profession. The sexual implications come in determined by the one performing. I understand not appreciating being lied to.....so I try to be as honest and blunt as possible....respectfully when I can lol
Garet...I did not say all atheists are extremeists. I said those that push their opinion on others in law or violence is extremists. That goes for any religion or lack of religion groups. So I did call out all sides of that issue.
Laci, have you not seen the places they took this kid to do drag? They're taking this kid to raunchy night clubs. Now the erotic clothing line photoshoot? It's only a matter of time before something waaaay over the line comes to light.
I super don't care if the kid dresses up, but be mindful of where you take him, and just like you would a girl be mindful of what you let a child wear in public.
I can see it being alright as sort of a Monty Python type of thing... played for laughs. I have far less objections to it as a personal thing that the kid does on their own or in a small group. It's different when you are doing this in a very public fashion. And claiming there isn't an element of sexualization in this instance is a little absurd considering that the kid's stage name is meant to evoke female erogenous organs... and you KNOW that kid didn't pick that name for himself at age 9.
Lactation is NOT sexual....a mother developing milk is not sexual in anyway....If the kid wants to do it and not being forced then i don't see why anyone would have a problem.
Yeah I have an issue with pageantry of children in general. So I can see the issue with some of the examples of kids in drag that have cropped up lately for the same reason I don't like those beauty pageants for little girls much. There is a lot of general conservative homophobia here too though a lot of people seem to act like gay people are inherently sexual and everything we do is sexual so we are inappropriate for kids.
I agree. I also don't particularly like how this child is being put in the spotlight so much. That's not healthy for kids unless parents are very very careful. But if he wants to dress like a woman idc.
It's OK if they're just dressing up as women but there have been cases of sexualization and we gotta be careful to not let this slip into pedophilia (I forgot the name of the "boy" but, in the magazine, he was sending a kiss while wearing very short clothes.. A shirt that showed his belly and a very tiny and tight shorts, this, for me, is stepping too far)
I say let him do drag. No surgeries, no padding, no adult magazine covers, no sex/sexy songs. Sometimes people just want to be pretty, have gorgeous hair, and wear a fun costume.
To an extent I agree, but I don't believe that they should be paraded around in this manner. If a kid wants to wear a dress, let them, but don't actively encourage them to adopt a particular clothing style, and certainly don't put them on a stage for the world to see. Acting is one thing, modeling is something else entirely.
I think it should be ok if teenagers, once they have truly discovered sexuality, not a kid who hasn't even discovered what sex really is, good video btw you truly have improved
How is being turned into an icon for an adult magazine "playing dress-up?" I'm all on board with allot of what you are saying here, but pretending that this is the same thing as what other children are doing for an afternoon in their own homes is ridiculous. Its not the same thing at all. I'm not saying its wrong either, but shooting down opposing viewpoints on the basis of "all kids do it," is beneath you.
Personally I don’t think it’s appropriate. Not because of caging children confused by their sexualities, but we don’t allow little girls to go out in heavy makeup because it’s sexualisation so why is it any different with little boys. I understand that drag doesn’t HAVE to be sexual, but through letting your children through drag you are letting your child be sexualised in the eyes of many, even if it’s unintentional
Drag DOES have to be sexual. Otherwise, it's just playing dress-up. Drag is NOT just dressing up. It's like the difference between naked and nekkid. Nekkid is being naked and also being up to something.
Drag Kids reminds me of Toddlers & Tiara's...parents adding strangely adult female characteristics via makeup & clothing to make their minor children a creepy hybrid of "pretty" & adult "sexy"...if the kid is choosing things on their own with cross-dressing & makeup; great! But parents coaching this behavior and/or making their kids media spectacles with this type of drag dress seems both creepy & a way for parents to use their kids as tools to earn fame & money. As for the issues I've seen with drag queen read alouds in libraries; anyone who is going to be volunteering or working with kids needs a criminal history background check and preferably a working/educational background in education or anything else related to child development.
Shmekeldorf Cross dressing is simply putting on women's clothes, drag is achieving the appearance of a woman. So, unless you think all it takes to look like a woman is to wear a dress, you're wrong.
I agree with most of your points but I don't like the fact that it's getting all this publicity. This child is too young to know what he's doing. When he grows up he is going to be bullied because of the fact that when he was young he liked to dress up like a girl. When I was little I liked to dress up like a clown which I realize now was stupid. It's the same with this child. But I guess we will never know until he grows up.
Having survived pedophelia - the argument is pedophiles would be aroused by it is a non argument. Pedophiles are attracted to children, you don’t protect children by preventing them from dressing a certain way not engaging in drag or whatever. We all wish it was something so simple as to make sure our kids just don’t look certain ways and do certain things but the truth is a child is more at risk from family and close family friends. I don’t know what the hell that magazine was thinking though and I do actually worry about his parents’ judgement because of that in this particular case. But that’s not the drag , like you said. We can and should encourage age appropriate drag. I did dance as a kid - I heard comments about how my glitter leotard and red lips would attract pedophiles from adults that acted like I couldn’t hear them. My abuser never saw me at a dance recital, he saw me asleep in my PJs.
I agree that children should express themselves. I do not agree that children should be twerking with adults. Thats the difference between sexuality and exploitation.
7:15 is an awkward argument because pedophiles would also be turned on by regular kids in not-drag. Should we just not be taking pictures of children, ever?
makeup and drag are a false comparison. also it is a woman's biological role to be sexualized, this is obviously not true for men a man who wants to be in drag indicates mental illness and abuse, a female wearing makeup indicates.......normal behavior men and women are not equal; got it?
You claim that make-up and drag is a false comparison, but also argue that nudity and drag are morally equivalent? Interesting. You claim that it is the 'biological role' of a woman to be sexualized, and this is obviously not true for men. So what? What is your conclusion? How is this relevant to the discussion? Try to tie your points back to the thesis of "it is wrong for a boy to dress up as a woman". Now I get to your only relatively coherent argument, You claim "a man who wants to be in drag indicates mental illness and abuse", which is a very strong claim to be making in the complete absence of evidence. I say males get abused *because* they dress up like girls, and that you're mixing up the cause and effect. You then claim "a female wearing makeup indicates normal behavior" I do agree that women wearing makeup is normal behaviour. Again, so what? Connect this to your thesis. You end with a final, baffling statement: "men and women are not equal; got it?". I agree, in the broad sense that men and women aren't the same. This isn't what we're arguing about though. TL;DR: Seeing men dressed up like women makes you uncomfortable, I get it. To that I say - big whoop, buddy. Also in the future try to tie your arguments back to the thing that you're trying to prove, I feel like I'm tutoring English again.
We definitely can, but the real controversy comes in with placing children on social media or exploiting them as models of some kind. The simplest argument against this is understanding child actors. Many child stars can get an inflated ego or fall into some pretty bad habits due to their fame, and so it's best to give them some way to ground themselves so they can be separate from the stardom.
Meh... Another video by Laci Greene that dismissed and ignored major points about an issue so she could push an agenda... Who's shocked? It's clearly no accident she didn't show any video of him... This isn't a kid that's tossed on a wig and is playing "dress up" around the house... This is a 9 year old child that somehow managed to develop a full on "vamp" persona... And it seems pretty obvious that persona wasn't created in a vacuum... It was clearly encouraged and influenced by the adults around him... Anyone that's seen a video of this kid knows this isn't "art" or self expression
If the kid WANTS to dress up as the other sex then I don't see the problem. I just see an issue with sexualising that and making it more of an issue of what is is (a kid dressing up)
you can be absolutely certain that a society conducive to this idea will lead children to do it. maybe the kid wants to try different clothes, but it's the parents who encourage the children by bringing them to shows and introducing them to this culture. it's not about letting kids do whatever they want in their leisure time. it's a culture based on the exploration of sexuality.
I'm just thinking of a little boy putting on his mother's lipstick and high heels for fun. I think that is fine but I agree that society can take advantage of that.
Yeah, I'm against kid drag in the same way I am against kid beauty pageants. Yeah, nothing wrong with kids "playing dress up" but I wouldn't parade my son in drag any more than I would take my daughter to pole dancing classes...
"Even though he's a child he does have his own agency." - I think Ian is wrong there, and I think this is the root of the problem. It's a weird phenomenon to me where progressives grant more and more agency to children. This is also the root of the issue in the trans children issue. I think your reservations are a little more on point. It's hard not to blame what seems like increasing infantalization of adults in progressive groups on how they grant more and more agency to children. There's a reason children aren't granted consent in things like medical procedures or whether or not to go to school, and why there are age restrictions on addictive substances, and all of the other rights and freedoms children lack. By all means, allow them to explore their own identity as they grow, but do not take seriously what they say about who they are or what they want. Hell, I know people in their damn 30's that I don't think know themselves well enough to make some life choices. :D My fear is that parents may be encouraging certain behaviors for the parents benefit. It looks a lot like "look at my drag queen kid! Aren't _I_ so cool for having a drag queen kid?! Don't _I_ get a lot of attention over it?!"
IMO, that's the worst part of the modern progressive and sex-positive movements. They want to treat adults like children when it comes to dealing with consequences and being tolerant of dissenting opinions. And they want to treat children like adults when it comes to sexuality and being able to consent to permanently altering their bodies with hormones and cosmetic surgery.
Michael Kreitzer Even if drag was coerced, it would be the coercion not the drag. He's off topic, we aren't talking coercion, were talking DRAG! Also, why isn't he as outraged about young girls being made to wear makeup and wigs. Remember: the child's gender should not be relevant to the choices he can make! "Drag in general is sexuality gay" citation needed. "There are gonna be adults that get turned on" who? How do you know? And wouldn't that happen without drag? His tactics is to say pedophiles might be attracted to children. That's dumb. Pedophiles are attracted to children with or without drag. The things he said about plastic genitalia and sex toys are irrelevant. The topic is DRAG. He never provides evidence drag is coerced or inherently sexual. Lacy: "I think Ian made some fair points here." Which?
I've been to a couple of my 6yo niece's dance recitals and it does come off as a bit creepy pedo. It's probably also a gender norms issue for boys in drag, like men doing effeminate things like ballet. I'm not going to lie but it does come off as homosexual behavior be shocking and flamboyant. I think the greater issue is less with playing dressup and more a question of idolizing children on magazines for trying to be sexy.
100 years ago it made sense for parents to be control freaks because you needed your kids to carry on the family practice. In today's standards of living, people have the freedom to choose what they want to do with their lives. It's not progressives doing this, it's society evolving with the times.
The thing is if he is saying he's sure people do not have the intent of creating something sexual, then what's wrong? We could make the argument that a lot of things are sexual when they aren't.
Here's my view but before I talk about Drag let me talk to you about something else. When a kid at the age of 7 wants to fight in the army, it's okay for them to play with toy guns at home and pretend to be at the army but a child cannot grasp the concepts of death, real violence and other subjects in the army. So sending them to war at age 7 will completely hurt him if he's not ready. But when he reaches ages 18 then he can go to the army. Now with drag, it's okay for a child to play dress up at home, put make up and other things. But they cannot grasp what sexual themes are, the social context, and other mature aspects as a drag. But when they reach age 18 then they can drag with the big corporations. So a child can dress up at home but not at a big corporation until they are truly prepared.
I'm all for the drag community. But when it comes to children I tend to disagree. I think it's better for the child to be older to decide whether or not to be a drag queen. After all children usually are easier to manipulate. I'm not saying they can't make personal choices since some are smart enough to make them, but that I feel like when it comes to this situation specifically it is usually encouraged by adults. That can become a mental health problem issue to them because it can be forced by adults this way of thinking and this pressure can be damaging.
A lot of people aren't against drag, they're just worried for the kid. They are coming from a good place. The main concern should be to make sure that this is something of his own choosing, not something he's been conditioned to say or do. It's hard to prove it either way, but we need to be careful about the whole situation. We have to make sure everything is ok before giving him freedom. Only at that point can we say that this is ok. This is a transition point in our society, and while there are kind hearted people trying to be accepting, there are also many others trying to take advantage of this social change.
If the kid really wants to do it out of his own idea, I dont really have a problem with it, what I'm more worried about is parents that push it onto kids go get their 15 minutes of fame
I think with everything else there has to be a line .. I don’t see a problem with a kid throwing a wig on and her/her parents clothing if that’s what they choose. But that line is crossed when the child is allowed to wear provocative clothing, attend club gigs and wear a full face of makeup etc etc it just becomes a massive problem. Then again if you look at these pageants for children (mostly younger girls) it completely disgusts me! Even more so when you can tell the parents are forcing them to do it. Same thing rolls into young children in “drag” you have to look at what the child has chosen and what the parent has pressured them into - either to offer the parent a cheap laugh or the child to gain fame.
3:06 OH. Im chinese and obsessed with our beijing opera and theres a position called "nandan" which ive always thought comparable to drag in the west (men put on elaborate clothes, headdresses, and makeup and perform a theatre sort of show and it is very diverse) and it arose in the EXACT same way. Super cool, more respect to drag now tbh.
Not a very unbiased video. 5 minutes of your friend framing drag as expressive art without any sexual elements and without you challenging him at all and 3 minutes of the dumbest arguments from chung where you edited your responses in a very particulate way and then pulled straw man tweets out at the end.
alondra. He did say that but that downplays the sexual elements in drag culture which is sexual by definition. You can't separate it and he did a very good job covering that up by conflating it with all art (the broadest subject ever).
She literally said before she showed the tweets that they were going overboard. Also, is there something wrong with a kid wearing a dress? I fail to see what the problem is... :\
Babyyoshi309 "going a little overboard" but she showed it anyway. it's still poisoning the well as if saying "if your not with me you are on the same side as these people" and she didn't do this for the other side. I'm sure you can find nutjobs on both sides of the argument. We don't know the mental side affects of young boys dressing in feminine clothing and this video doesn't help argue both sides equally like it's implying. Just saying.
+Stu I believe that is why she talked to the guy. In order to get a less radical opinion. And while you can definitely find some radical claims from the other side as well, you cannot deny that claims like the ones she showed are a lot more abundant. Which is probably why she showed them. Also, I don't like how you are using the "if you are not with me, you are against me" mentality. You know you can NOT choose a side right? You can be in the middle and form your own side.
One angle that I don't think was explored sufficiently is the media attention inherent with children in drag. Because it's novel and controversial, many young people who engage in drag will be exposed to media attention which may not be healthy for their development. Aside from the immortalization of regrettable actions or words, and the potential for personality issues associated with fame, the attention could lead to bullying and physical harm. While the populace is becoming more and more accepting of alternative sexualities and self-expression, there are still plenty of people who aren't. If your child is into drag, maybe think twice before filming it and putting it online for the world to see.
The part that bugged me is that 5yr olds shouldn't be watching rupaul's drag race. It sends a lot of messages about your looks and sexuality and how you present it being your main worth to people. Showing that to a 5 year old is not responsible, that show is for adults.
I look at this more from the perspective of a parent whose child was a competitive performance athlete. My daughter expressed a desire to skate from the time she could walk and a desire to compete at the age of 3. From age 3 to 7 we, as a family, lived ice skating. She practiced nearly 30 hours per week average plus classes and coaching. She wore her skates(with guards)and costumes everywhere except school. Once we really got involved in competing I personally invested a lot of time and money into something that could have been a career. When people asked if she loved skating she said she did. I know she did. When she was 7 she decided to do other things and have a social life at school. I was faced with a choice between my dreams for her and her dreams for her and wondered how much I might have taken advantage of her willingness to skate to her heart's content and made it an obsession of sorts. I was lucky enough to have people around who remembered a Tonia Harding and her mother's obsessive abuse. Determined focus on practicing and winning which inevitably led to an attack on a competitor. Does this child or these children really love drag or is it early childhood playing with mom's makeup and clothing turned into something for the parents to have pride over?
For me, personally, I'd be more concerned about the adults exploiting this child's 'fame' and what this child will get from that when he's older. I agree with Shoe, too, there is a line. There HAS to be a line.
The interview with your drag queen friend, well casual conversation really, didn't do anything to alleviate my gut reactions to this drag kid. It sounds very much like it is being enforced, not just allowed to happen, and the video clips of the kid scream the same. I do think you think to highly of people, that there aren't pedophiles in hiding who absolutely will support this behavior because it gives them some eye candy. Fundamentally this is like a classier version of the 12 year old twerking for a group of adults at that pride parade. If it was something he did at home, for himself, maybe not, but clearly he is being put out in the world to be watched.
bertimusprime Even if drag was coerced, it would be the coercion not the drag. He's off topic, we aren't talking coercion, were talking DRAG! Also, why isn't he as outraged about young girls being made to wear makeup and wigs. Remember: the child's gender should not be relevant to the choices he can make! "Drag in general is sexuality gay" citation needed. "There are gonna be adults that get turned on" who? How do you know? And wouldn't that happen without drag? His tactics is to say pedophiles might be attracted to children. That's dumb. Pedophiles are attracted to children with or without drag. The things he said about plastic genitalia and sex toys are irrelevant. The topic is DRAG. He never provides evidence drag is coerced or inherently sexual. Lacy: "I think Ian made some fair points here." Which?
Will Vandermark Why? Why would you put an age limit on when boys can wear dresses, put on lipstick, or do their hair? Would you put the same limits on makeup for girls? Even if drag was coerced, it would be the coercion not the drag. He's off topic, we aren't talking coercion, were talking DRAG! Also, why isn't he as outraged about young girls being made to wear makeup and wigs. Remember: the child's gender should not be relevant to the choices he can make! "Drag in general is sexuality gay" citation needed. "There are gonna be adults that get turned on" who? How do you know? And wouldn't that happen without drag? His tactics is to say pedophiles might be attracted to children. That's dumb. Pedophiles are attracted to children with or without drag. The things he said about plastic genitalia and sex toys are irrelevant. The topic is DRAG. He never provides evidence drag is coerced or inherently sexual. Lacy: "I think Ian made some fair points here." Which?
one of the things that makes me so angry about the people that at least pretend to be worried about these kids for some reason is because a lot of the most vocal ones are also the same kind of person that considers everything else a parental right and is always ranting about their child there right but then want to tell these parents what to do.
This guy is making conflations like crazy. How is wearing clothes associated with the opposite gender an 'exploration of sexuality'?? Explorations of sexuality involve sex (or at least intimacy with another person) or masturbation or something. Wearing clothes and not having sex, masturbating, or something tantamount to these things is not sexual!
I wasn't referring to the night clubs or clothing line stuff, that may well be sexualising (and almost certainly is, but i haven't actually looked into it). All I'm saying is wearing clothes of any gender isn't an exploration of sexuality. It may well be (for some people in the right contexts) an exploration of identity (and this 'identity' may include sexual orientation signifiers), but it is not sexual. The word 'sexuality' isn't really about being gay or straight, it's about having a sex drive and living as a sexual being. When i came out as gay i started hanging around with girls more (and you could have called it an 'exploration of my gayness, queerness, or like cultural homosexuality), but it wasn't an exploration of my sexuality, it was of the non-sexual/societal dimension/stereotypes of the label/community my sexuality identified me with. These are very different, and this guy was conflating them no end.
There is something called autogynephilia, and it refers to a man getting off on the idea of being a woman. It’s not 100% approved by all people, but I don’t feel it’s so far fetched to think that there is some other pleasure that one gets from it, but i don’t think everyone who does drag would do it for that reason.
HJones68 I think there’s a slight difference between letting a kid dress up in anything he/she/they want to and letting them dress up and perform in front of adult people. Ian said he doesn’t think the kid is being sexual, just that others (pedophiles) will see him that way. You can’t say that’s inflating the issue when he is put as a model for a bondage store. Personally I think the kid should do whatever he wants, but it is the parents/guardians jobs to make sure it’s done in a safe and appropriate manner. Drag is performance art and I have a problem with a child performing for people in short dresses and makeup.
As i already said, I'm not defending what that specific kid example is doing, I don't know enough about the situation but yeah it sounds bad and i wouldn't let my child perform for adults, represent sex magazines, etc. But what i was criticising was the guy in the video who was saying that the (non-performative) action of putting on clothes of the "opposite sex" is an exploration of sexuality. I also never claimed he was 'inflating the issue' (I mean, he wasn't referring to any specific issue or the kid Laci earlier used as an example, he was talking very generally about non-performative drag (i.e. children wearing 'opposite gender' clothing)
It's all fun and games until the parents throw them into the lime light. That is not okay. That's when it's almost impossible for abuse and sexualization to be avoided. Look at all the other child stars; Lindsay Lohan, Olsen twins Amanda Bines, Aaron Carter. It was innocent and 'oh look at my cute kid!!' and we all know how that ends.
I get everything but just one thing that I don't get he likes dressing up as a girl since he was 2? Where did he got the dress? He bought it because he ''wanted it'' or perhaps the parents place the idea that he wants this so they could get public attention? Because I don't know any 2 year ols genuises that wants different clothes then what their parents given them. And this gives me the assumption about perhaps the parents wanted this attention all along so they give the kid feminen clothes from the begining. idea of making proud of his parents will stay there when testosterone hits him and since he doesn't want to dissapoint his parents wishes he will try to repress his own general sexualty because I don't think most of the girls want a guy dressing up as a girl. (And this whole scenerio would be an extreme case but you can't say it is too low of a happening chance) And this coul assentially leads to an 20 year old hanging from ceiling... Yeah you can tell me that this would be extremely rare however it's not that out of a stretch. And part that I'm concerned by is no one will bat an eye that why that had happened. Because some people are willing to do anything to do to be famous including oppressing their child's sexualty other way around. And assuming everyone has good intentions these years could be dangerous.
The uproar is because they are competing, not because they are wearing make up. All parents let their daughters play with make up at home. Also the uproar against beauty pageants is definitely not coming from the same people.
My biggest reservation about this ties very closely with how I feel about parents who publicly praise their children for being 'trans' and stigmatize them for acting hetero-normative. Kids are very malleable and parents forcing kids into roles that suit their own agendas is wrong to me. There is always the argument that "Hey, the kid looks they are loving it" but that is only because of the praise they are getting from their parents and other adults while being shielded from the harsh reality of public perception. And like you said, this doesn't only apply to this topic but to forcing your children into anything and then bubbling them off. Child TV stars, child beauty pageants, and this are good examples of exploiting your child for your own goals. Of course you get into this weird dichotomy on this subject when the child is the instigator for publicizing these things and then it becomes this parental balance of "Making my child happy now" and "Will this make my child happy in the long run"
Just discovered you via This American Life. I'm a new subscriber, with a 4 y/o daughter. Looking forward to getting through your stuff. So glad you're making these accessible videos!
a kid doing drag? (basically playing dress up?)
yes
a kid performing at a night club?
no.
a kid modeling for a kink clothing?
no.
there's a line. i don't think it's that hard to see the line.
Shoe0nHead cool cool, yeah I agree
A parent forcing it: No
It wasn't kink clothing.
It was a cloth line with erotic inspirations.
EXACTLY!!! TY!
Shoe0nHead
Different topic but what are your thoughts on the Netflix show Big Mouth? Do you think it sexualizes children?
I find girls being sexualised for beauty pageants pretty repulsive, tons of make up to make them look older, the faux coquettish behaviour just gross. it's totally hypocritical to not feel the same way when it happens to young boys.
beauty pagents are indeed creepy, but its not hypocritical to hate one more than the other
men and women are biologically different, we are not equal, we do not have the same roles in society
007kingifrit I'm not sure where I made the point that we are the same??? But thinking the sexualisation of boys is ok, but not girls (or visa versa) would be hypocritical no?
This!!!!
Agreed, that's why I despised Toddlers and Tiaras.
007kingifrit dude what do the pieces of cloth that we put on our bodies have anything to do with biology. I can totally agree that men and women have biological differences (obviously) but you're making a hollow argument.
I'm a 22 year old gay man, and I'm a big fan of drag queens and drag culture in general, but I do have to agree with Ian here, for the most part. I wouldn't say that drag is inherently sexual, I mean some drag queens like Max (from season 7 of Drag Race), make a point of distancing themselves from the more risqué parts of the culture. But it's hard to deny that Lactatia is being sexualized. The name "Lactatia" itself is obviously a reference to female breasts, and I don't think it's just a coincidence that his signature look consists of evening gowns and very prostitute-esque makeup. To me, a toned-down version of drag might be perfectly fine for children, but this is just inappropriate, and it does seem to be much more oriented toward an adult audience.
Fucking Obviously! That kid did Not come up with that name himself.
Now let's talk about how Max was robbed
Ya I think Laci is naively thinking that dressing up in drag is the same as drag culture. I never met a drag queen that wasn't overtly sexual (often times purposely to the point of uncomfortability of others) while in character. A child doesn't need to be around that in my opinion.
i mean i can see room for a discussion but when people say drag isn't sexual i am very very much inclined to feel like i'm being fed a line. not accusing you, i can see you're thinking about it just looking for your opinion. like you're gay, alright, but when people say gay people are just like straight people...no ya'lls relationships work waaaaay differently on average
the whole culture is different and when you make people feel bad for stating the obvious it is a conversation stopper. kids dressing up is very different than drag, and the sexual culture of drag is that difference
You are very right. Nobody who is against this kid doing drag is against drag or homosexuality. I say let everyone do what they want. As long as you don't bother me.
I find it troublesome that a kid is being paraded around like something to gloat over. His drag persona is much more adult then he actually is and should not be encouraged. His drag name and behavior both are sexualized. I understand the drag community will not say anything against it in general but even they think twice before answering if you see anyone answer. They know it is wrong.
parents pressuring kids into drag? Bad
Kids basing their lives around drag? Concerning
Anything to do with kids relating to anything to do with anything sexual? Bad
Kids wanting to dress up as the opposite gender for fun? Acceptable
The lines are mostly pretty clear if you ask me.
Cameron Myers
I wonder what youd say if your kids wanted to do drugs for fun or ruin their future social life just because they so someone on tv doing stuff
there's a clear difference between dressing up for fun with your friends or by yourself and shooting heroin and meth. If you don't see it then you're intentionally deluding yourself.
+Laharl Krichevskoy
Are you seriously comparing dress up to doing drugs?
wigs, meth.... what the difference, right?
Is kids centering their lives around drag really different from centering it around sports?
Drag is fine for kids to do, but drag spaces are not often safe for children.
Adrion Trujillo that's fair
Very good point 👍
Agreed. Let kids play dressup, but keep them away from adult places and magazines.
If there are family friendly drag performances, I'd let my son or daughter perform. Those events are just rare.
NO just NO
To me there is a difference between a child dressing up as the opposite gender and performing in a night club, that's not an appropriate place for a child.
The reason for the outrage is this, if this child parents were just letting their kid dress up and encouraging this, that would be one thing. But we can't be sexualizing kids.
I think the act of dressing up/dressing in drag is fine, I just think it gets weird when it becomes a public spectacle. It's the same as child beauty pageants to me. dressing up and wearing makeup only gets weird when they're in a situation where adults are then judging them on their performance. it's not just for fun anymore.
Exactly
Child beauty pageant contests came to my mind as well... If someone thinks that kids in drag is unacceptable, then they really should think the same thing about these contests. I'd say that putting a child to compete with other kids of beauty, covering them with makeup, making them look 'adult', and exposing them to pedofiles and whatnot is far more harmful that a kid basically playing dress up.
Agreed.
How is this kid doing drag any different than theese mums that push their kids onto shoes like toddlers in tiara's. Cant agree with one and not the other.
I mean, I don't know much about this particular child; But there is definitely a difference from children just exploring and expressing themselves (with their parents support) and parents pushing their child into fame or raising them to a certain mould.
And I absolutely hate kid beauty pageants. I think that children should be able to dress up, but I don't like it when they are performed in front of an audience and grouped into the adults that do it. Lactacia has been on the same shows that adults have been in. I'm fine with him doing drag, but he's not ready for performance imo.
Both of those are wrong imo.
Chantelle YT
Yeah. I feel that both, as long as it doesn't become too sexual and the *kid* is having fun, it is fine. But if the parent pushes the kids to do it or forces them to act sexual, it isn't okay to me. The kid should also have to be at least ten for these things and if the kid wants a sex change, they need to wait until their eighteen. I mean, if an adult can feel uncomfortable, regret, or change their mind, than a kid definitely can.
Are the parents pushing drag onto the kids though? I know I use to dress up a lot and so did my little brother. We didn't tell him to do it and my grandma even made slight criticisms of it before she became more understanding. He continued to do it because he enjoyed it but he grew out of it. I'm sure some kids will continue and that's okay too. Why does this have to be such a big deal? A kid that likes to perform is absolutely okay too. If a kid likes wearing what they wear, I don't see that as big of a problem. It's only an issue when it's coerced. These shows generally require that they imitate someone behaving sexually and the parents force the kids into it. Drag is closer to letting your kid do theater or dance than it is toddlers in tiaras where things like beauty are being assessed.
I have no problem with the kid himself dressing up of his own accord. I'm mostly pissed that the parents are parading him around like this-- I mean, he couldn't be on that magazine cover without their written permission. Dress up is just something kids do, but I do think encouraging kids to think about sexuality before puberty is rushing them. Childhood is the most worry-free part of life. Pushing kids to think about something that is presented to them as incredibly important is just cruel-- not saying abuse, but mean isn't a strong enough word.
Drag queens can be great fun, and are typically cool people. I don't think anywhere near all of the people supporting this kid are pedos. Some probably are, simply as a matter of statistics, but I'd guess that's less than 10%.
Layla Lockheart I like this perspective on this all
No, I really can't get down with children in drag. It seems to me a little convenient here that drag is being deemed "not sexualised" when it involves children- even whilst it's being held up as a cornerstone of the *sexual* liberation movement. Regardless of it being gay or straight, it's inappropriate to put children in that position. And kids playing dress up in their own home is very different to being rolled out on stage for politically exploitative reasons.
in relation to people sexualising children, couldn't the same be said about children's pageants (ie Toddlers & Tiaras)?
Good argument. Child pageants are sick.
Nate McMillin they're pretty despicable, especially when you can tell the parent is forcing the kid - for example, i once saw a clip on T&T where this mum made this child who was probably around 6-7 years old get her eyebrows waxed and the entire time she was screaming at them to stop but the mum convinced the waxers to keep going... turned out the wax they were using was actually too hot and it tore off some of her skin. like, the fact that the mother would make her kid go through that is some gross shite, man
Easy, yes.....
sarcastichearts I'm pretty sure it is
Yes
There is a difference between...
- A child playing dress up.
- And children dancing in public in suggestive ways.
I am sure people would be outrage if a young girl would Strip Dancing in a Strip Club.
gabriel montreuil why the hell would they be "dancing suggestively"? why did this thought occur to you? self reflect.
You clearly didn't saw Lactacia dancing haven't you?
also... why would a kid call himself something similar to lactation?
greenteasenpai then you haven't been paying attention.
"Dancing suggestively"=/=being turned on. I can say someone is dressed like a hooker without wanting to have sex
gabriel montreuil a kid mimicking an adult dancing is hardly dangerous is it? and what's wrong with lactation? isn't lactating one of the world's most natural phenomena? why does it make you uncomfortable, why do you relate it to sex in your mind.
+Dean Campos
Also if performing as a drag queen is expressing yourself...
what the hell is this kid trying to express when he is dancing like a striper?
I never thought I had a problem with DRAG because my mother was a seamstress and most of her clients were queens so I was exposed to men in gowns and costumes at an early age and never really thought it was odd. However, seeing that little boy and others like him makes me incredibly sad, and makes me question my values on the entire concept.
Why is it sad?
Native Daughter There is absolutely nothing wrong with grown men doing it. But children shouldn't. People consider Playboy to be art, should we let children in that magazine too?
Why is it sad? You grew up around it, like you said, and you didn't see anything wrong with it. Doubtless your parents would have let you do it too if you wanted.
Dressing in clothes that don't conform to gender norms isn't inherently sexualizing.
paultardspambot appearing on a adult magazine is tho, that line of hobby or work is highly sexualized and more suited for adults not children.
If a girl of the same age would dress like this, I think a lot more people would consider it sexual. High heels and so much makeup are not appropriate at that age, regardless of gender. Nor is such intense social media activity.
Dress up really is about having fun and self expression, but it doesn't mean that there shouldn't be boundaries. If you wouldn't allow your daughter to dress up like a hooker, it's probably a bad idea to allow it to your son.
good point. What if it was *a little girl promoting a sex shop* ? Would the same people supporting laticia be supporting that little girl as well?
A kid doing drag? Yeah
A kid doing drag being used as a political/activism tool? No
id say trying on a pair of shoes once at the age of 3 and walking a circle is normal.....doing it in a show is not
This should be obvious.
I'd think the same people being against this boy doing drag would be against little girls doing those child beauty pageants. There have always been fears that these children are being sexualized, exploited, and abused. Especially as anyone can be taking photos of the children at these events and posting them online for the world to see.
It doesn't mean that the children don't like getting dressed up and competing. It just might mean that a little more regulation and oversight may be needed.
It is disturbing when you do go on the House of Mann's etsy page and see a child in a onesie and then scroll down and see a model with his hands down his boxer shorts :0 0_o
Just think of the press coverage if H&M or Macy's was caught with a page like that.
Snarky McSne they usually are
it's coaxed fetishized behavior.
This comment should be higher.
usucdik higher**
I think a big factor in this which could be feeding this child is the fame and notoriety associated with him doing drag. It has huge potential to create an emotional validation seeking attitude in his love of drag. Rather than just his inherent joy and hobby for drag.
Michael Kriechbaum nice point but the same applies to child actors and singers
Yeah, I can't deny that. But I'm also trying to bring forth the idea that his/her interest in performing drag might be just a phase per his age, but by feeding emotional validation on doing drag could create a false desire to continue drag.
But yes, by all means, child actors, singers could go through the same emotional issues and this child might not even develop the type of emotional problems which I am implying could happen.
So yeah, good point you bring up.
Another Munchausen disorder for the parents
+Something to See A lot of those child actors ended up as drug addicts.
Children shouldnt wear make up beyond lip gloss.
Honestly, I don't have a problem with children doing drag alone. (However, I am worried for the possibility of them getting confused about their sexuality at a young age, which I think is a bigger problem than people realize.) But if a kid is going to be placed on an *erotic magazine* that needs to be stopped *immediately.* We need to stop sexualizing children, seriously.
Cinnamon The Cat and how would they get confused about their sexuality?
How many cases have you known of this happening?
@ Jhonn Clements confusion about sexuality and gender is a huge issue in the trans community. there are even grown men who are getting confused with their sexuality. a prime example is trevor moran, who recently made a video titled "My Gender" and said that he thought he was transgender, just because he liked to play with dresses and do his makeup. I've also seen another video where there was a complete montage of people saying the same thing, however I can't remember the name of it atm. There is also that other kid who thought he was trans, because again he liked to play with dresses and such, so he transitioned to a female. Now he's transitioning back to male, because he said he made a huge mistake and was just confused. My philosophy is that if grown men are getting confused about these things, then we should be incredibly careful about children doing these things. I'm fine with experimenting, and learning from a younger age, but we still need to take it at slow steps.
Cinnamon The Cat you said sexuality, now you're conflating drag with trans, I think you're a little confused perhaps.
*sigh* no, sexuality and gender are more or less the same thing. and yes, being drag means playing with makeup and dressing up as a female, so it's borderline trans. i'm not confused at all, but thanks.
Cinnamon The Cat you clearly are because sexuality and gender are not the same thing. Who or what I am is not the same as who or what I may or may not be attracted to.
Appropriate for kids to do drag? Hell no. They wanna play dress up sure. If the parents take that idea and parade them around to garner attention, which is exactly what their parents are doing, then that is indeed child abuse.
No it's not OK. If your kid comes up to you and want's to wear a dress, fine. Let them wear a dress. Your kid wants to go do drag shows? No. If they are a teenager, that's different, but that is not something a prepubescent child should be doing in front of crowds.
NO.
At some point, there has to be a line.
The difference is whether you're encouraging children or not.
Encouraging someone to do something doesn't mean forcing it on them. If I had a kid, I'd cheer them on no matter how they led their life, because I want them to feel loved and feel confident in themself and their choices. Children are free to quit the whole scene if they no longer want to continue, and that's fine. Encouraging them doesn't mean punishing them for quitting.
So if your kid would hate gey people and be a bully, beat up other kids you would cheer and support them ? It doesn't work that way, you mold your kid in to something that will be better than you , and they can feel loved and confident while doing so.
I forgot what dialogue was like on this channel's comment section.
Ok:
Yes, kids dress up in drag naturally and explore themselves naturally. But we don't need _infrastructure_ or an agenda to encourage it. We don't need to put them on tv as role models for other children. And we should not, as a society, exploit the passive sexual energy of children, even if it makes us money. I'm looking at you Disney.
Mike C Even if drag was coerced, it would be the coercion not the drag. He's off topic, we aren't talking coercion, were talking DRAG!
Also, why isn't he as outraged about young girls being made to wear makeup and wigs. Remember: the child's gender should not be relevant to the choices he can make!
"Drag in general is sexuality gay" citation needed.
"There are gonna be adults that get turned on" who? How do you know? And wouldn't that happen without drag?
His tactics is to say pedophiles might be attracted to children. That's dumb. Pedophiles are attracted to children with or without drag. The things he said about plastic genitalia and sex toys are irrelevant. The topic is DRAG. He never provides evidence drag is coerced or inherently sexual.
Lacy: "I think Ian made some fair points here." Which?
"encouraging" is a complicated word here.
With children, you have to say "no" sometimes but at the same time you should have an actual GOOD reason for it and I won´t say that there is one for drag per se.
I do think this is a case where you should at least go the "are you sure about that?" route.
On the other hand, you might also have to counterbalance an outside "no" children receive if you see that this is something they really care about.
I don´t have a problem with what the children do, my problems start when you put them out in public and certain environments. The drag community is not set up to be a "safe space" for kids and when it comes to children I do think this is where you should actually ask yourself the question "is that a safe space?".
We had Pedophiles on fucking MINECRAFT servers.
And I would say that drag is just a TINY bit more sexual than your average "art", however this does not mean there can´t be a way for children to essentially play "Dress-up 2.0" without being sexualized.
Maybe that´s just me but the "putting it out in public" part is the one that really makes me... a bit worried.
Just look at how Child-Movie Stars tend to turn out (granted that might also be due to being fiddled by a director, pedophilia in Hollywood is something that probably should be looked into)
My only concern with this topic is child exploitation. Similar to pageant parents exploiting children for their own attention starved lives.
The issue I have is the kid was in a night club in the video I seen and in the gay pride parades around me sexual things around places with adults being sexual is no place for kids
Putting on a wig is not "sexualization", but putting tons of makeup that accentuate sexual signifiers (blush, lipstick, eyeliner, etc.) definitely is. Stuff like lipstick and blush simulate and exaggerate sexual arousal, while stuff like eyeliner makes the eyes stand out to look more seductive. That is the function of this type of makeup. Putting it on kids (regardless of gender--including preteen Beauty Pageants for girls) IS sexualization.
VisionStorm1 The argument here is that Lactatia wants to do these things. I agree though. Drag is not for children.
VisionStorm1 parents who let girls wear makeup are bad then?
Tough subject. Personally I think it does sexualize him even if drag isn't inherently sexual. I think the positive feedback/conditioning will likely lead to a place where some adult will take advantage of him. Same with children's pageants.
I don't think Drag can be equated with normal dress up. It's political and sexual. If not, it wouldn't even be discussed. The boy is obviously gay. Drag or no drag will not change that.
Can you imagine the same commotion being made over a kid who dresses like Batman?
Maybe I'm paranoid or overprotective but being progressive for progressives sake is ridiculous. We know pedo's are opportunistic. I don't really trust any situation where adults befriend children like this, acting, pageants, etc. If he wants to dress up, let him dress up with people his own age and just be a kid. It's the involvement of adults with their own agendas (be it sexual, political, social or other) that bothers me. As innocuous as it may be, adults will poison the well with their own bias. That goes for the opposite side too. By letting adults get involved he could be subjected to hate and anger and all sorts of negativity for expressing himself. Just my 2 cents. Let kids be kids. Don't politicize them with stupid signs at rallies they don't understand. Don't take actions or sentiments of a child as support for your side. Kids are dumb and gullible and silly. They believe what they hear repeated most from their most trusted source. They don't make up their own minds. We're social creatures and they're in the process of conforming. Most don't seem to make it out of that stage anymore.
Dress up and pretend, yes. Actually doing the drag queen thing, absolutely not.
Trace XL why?
Drag is NOT just dressing up. It's like the difference between naked and nekkid. Nekkid is being naked and also being up to something.
The drag scene isn't for kids, that's why. Kids shouldn't be at clubs and hanging around with older crowds like that. They need to be kids doing kid things. When he's older and can handle himself, if he wants to go that route, more power to him, but not so young.
His name is lactation???
My only concern is the nightclubs the mom is taking him to.
I love drag culture and I used to go out with my friends to the shows. Many were in the shows.
They are clubs for adults so of course drinking is going on and sexual things are brought up often.
Which is fine. Because everyone is adults. It's different when you start throwing kids in the mix.
If kids are doing this outside of that it doesn't really bother me.
The issue is mixing the adult aspect with the child aspect. Like him being in that very obvious adult clothing site and night clubs.
This looks like child grooming...
in a sense... yes... if there was malice behind the intention, we could say that it is. However, we can't know that unless there are victims
Both are wrong imo. Even young teenagers should still basically just be kids rather than worry about miniskirts and the like.
blazednlovinit Teenagers have at least gone through puberty. They understand what it is to have sexuality and sexual desires. Children have no such understanding.
+cripwhaa Both are child grooming. It's soft core porn for pedos, and the adults involved in supporting it are fully aware of that.
cripwhaa, I'm pretty sure the most people are against pageants. Most of the time it's just used for fun. But it is taken way to far by some. Same as every other activity.
That is why it's not a good idea to let a kid do drag. Because it's a bad idea to even let them do pageants.
that erotic clothing ad is disgusting. i dont mind kids being gender nonconforming but a media circus around children in high heels and makeup is concerning (male or female, i am not ok with shows like dance moms or toddlers in tiaras either).
Laci, I like you but I think you're missing the point here. I don't think the issue is so much about a kid "playing dress up", as you put it, any more than child beauty pageants are. When little girls are caked with tons of make up and glitter and marched out publicly for the approval of strangers, we recognize that its super creepy and more than likely inadvertently caters to pedophiles. Do that to a little boy and you're just adding a whole lot of layers of weird to an already uncomfortable practice.
To have an opinion of drag, I had to look up what drag means. I think the fact that drag exaggerates femininity, before a child can really process femininity or masculinity makes me not okay with a child doing drag. Let's remember there's a difference between dressing up (which every child does) and letting your child engage in an act that involves exploration of topics the child can't process. Drag is a performance, not just dress up. I'd definitely let my child play in whatever clothes he/she wanted to as a kid (no makeup..I don't play that), but, not engage in a performance that has a sexual influence, which drag does.
Drag is NOT just dressing up. It's like the difference between naked and nekkid. Nekkid is being naked and also being up to something.
The Reaction I'm guessing you're just aggressively agreeing with me? I agree that drag is not just dressing up.
he probably just saw your username and assumed you were a diehardsuperprogressive
Shmekeldorf Lmao! You're probably right! Unfortunately, I'm just a victim of very "creative" parents.
I may have just unthinkingly posted under the wrong comment . There are a lot of people watching that don't seem to get it.
You should really have looked at the financial aspects
This kids parents are making a lot of money out of his ‘self expression’
How much choice does he really have in that situation?
To me, that feels like exploitation. I hope that his parents allows him to quit doing it if he chooses to.
when i was a kid i didn't know if i preferred being a girl or a boy, but realistically you dont have a choice in it and once you grow up you'll come to terms with who/what you are, people should never be able to make body identity decisions for a child, you dont know what that childs going to think in 10-20 years
you feminists complain about genital mutilation and then you go promoting this crap, srsly wtf
I mean along the lines of sexualizing the boy... wasn't he in an erotic magazine? There's nothing wrong with dressing up or doing drag. I worked at a daycare and we let the boys dress up in dresses (some of the parents actually got mad but we said, they're just playing get over it) but what I do think is wrong is the magazine, even if he was just wearing a sparkly onesie- not appropriate to even be on that magazine.
I find this whole circumstance disgusting. If I might recommend in future, Laci, rather than talking to some random right-winger or drag queen friend of yours on this, talk to a child psychologist. I'm more interested in what a specialist has to say on whether or not this is potentially damaging to a child, than some moral crusader on either side of the political spectrum.
I would just say that the issue I would have with this is the fact that you're forcing a child into being confronted with concepts and situations they don't fully understand. I have an issue with child beauty pageants in a similar light given that often times these children are too young to comprehend or consent into situations where often times the objective is to sexualize themselves as much as possible. Or at least make themselves as visually appealing as possible to a crowd of people and a panel of judges. If an adult wants to parade themselves around like a show animal or slab of meat they can, but I think it's fucked up to do it to a child, and even more so to do what is being done to this boy. Given that you are subjecting him to the physical expectations and beauty standards of a mature adult female and surrounding him with people who are lauding over this behavior. He has yet to really define himself as a person and yet he is being subjected to an experience that could potentially damage or otherwise derail his physical and mental development as well as his mental health as he grows up and later in life.
Perhaps get 3 different sources? One for each political side, and one from an scientist/psychologist?
That would be the best way. But it might be kind of hard to get a child psychologist to come on and talk about it for free.
Laci is an educational figure with a long list of covered topics. Surely there is a psychologist open to answering a few questions for someone open to talk.
+Matt Dathe
Fair enough.
I would agree that it would be helpful to approach an issue from different contexts. But like the one queen and one journalist, their opinions shouldn't be taken as the end all be all opinion for their respective side.
Sure, let me just pull a child psychologist out of my ass
This is basically the same debate we were having years ago with little girls' beauty pageants, and the whole thing came to a boil with the death of Jonbenet Ramsey. Whether it's appropriate or sexualizing to dress children in glamorous outfits for shows was never really settled for a lot of people. So adding the new element of drag is just re-opening an old debate, except that this time, we're being distracted by the fact that drag kind of looks similar enough to transgender issues to make us feel like it's a NEW debate.
Allowing a child to play "dress up" in the privacy of their home is one thing - publicizing it to the adult world is something totally different. Knowing that there are people who specifically target children in and for their sexual desires should make every normal parent wary of putting their child on an adult stage to market adult products or on display for adult viewing. How many children do you think are aware of "Lactacia?" Now, how many adults are and why? This young boy's exhibition is not, and never was, meant for other children to appreciate. Think about that.
From a TransWoman's point of view....Drag Queens is a theatrical profession at it's core. It can be used as an expression of inner emotions or personalized art or just a job. Children in drag....happens a lot in theater and just kids playing dress up. A kid in drag on an exotic magazine?...oh hellz no. That is exploiting the child to pedophiles and using the child to promote being TransPerson as a trend....much like a few UA-camrs I will not name right now. The Religious Extremist comments has caused more damage and I believe has birthed the Left Extremists. Basically extremists are annoying. I love God but I will not accept biblical extremism in my life any more than I would accept atheist extremists telling me I believe in Santa....which I do lol. Laci....you are not dumb...and I love how you are not the extremist you use to be. You are a reasonable person that knows children in drag in an adult magazine is shady as hell.
Liam....She was an extremist. And an atheist that would push their belief on others , same as other religions that would do the same. I understand you want to defend Laci but there was no insult to her.
i mean would you deny there is a sexual element to drag that's not the same as kids playing dressup or gender bending? because when people can't acknowledge there is SOMETHING different, in that specific direction, it really makes it hard to believe folks. it goes completely against observation. at the same time i dont think it's purely a sexual interest, but to say oh it's just like any other art...nah. that makes me feel i'm being lied to
atheism is an extreme o_O extremism just refers to how polarized you are in the realm of some discourse. hardline Christians are at one end and atheism at another for instance. agnostics would be moderate in that spectrum. it doesnt tell you who's right or wrong but extremists tend to be wrong eventually because they lose touch with the culture and dont let in conflicting views which give us all a reality check
Garet...the sexual element comes into play on how they dress and what kind of dance moves the Drag Queen is making. There can be sexual comedies and violent comedies as well. But Drag Queen at it's core is just an artistic profession. The sexual implications come in determined by the one performing. I understand not appreciating being lied to.....so I try to be as honest and blunt as possible....respectfully when I can lol
Garet...I did not say all atheists are extremeists. I said those that push their opinion on others in law or violence is extremists. That goes for any religion or lack of religion groups. So I did call out all sides of that issue.
Laci, have you not seen the places they took this kid to do drag? They're taking this kid to raunchy night clubs. Now the erotic clothing line photoshoot? It's only a matter of time before something waaaay over the line comes to light.
I super don't care if the kid dresses up, but be mindful of where you take him, and just like you would a girl be mindful of what you let a child wear in public.
No.
The fact that I even need to say that means we've failed as a society
Well said.
IM SO HAPPY UR BACK WITH A VIDEO!!! :)
I can see it being alright as sort of a Monty Python type of thing... played for laughs. I have far less objections to it as a personal thing that the kid does on their own or in a small group. It's different when you are doing this in a very public fashion.
And claiming there isn't an element of sexualization in this instance is a little absurd considering that the kid's stage name is meant to evoke female erogenous organs... and you KNOW that kid didn't pick that name for himself at age 9.
Lactation is NOT sexual....a mother developing milk is not sexual in anyway....If the kid wants to do it and not being forced then i don't see why anyone would have a problem.
Yeah I have an issue with pageantry of children in general. So I can see the issue with some of the examples of kids in drag that have cropped up lately for the same reason I don't like those beauty pageants for little girls much. There is a lot of general conservative homophobia here too though a lot of people seem to act like gay people are inherently sexual and everything we do is sexual so we are inappropriate for kids.
I agree. I also don't particularly like how this child is being put in the spotlight so much. That's not healthy for kids unless parents are very very careful. But if he wants to dress like a woman idc.
It's OK if they're just dressing up as women but there have been cases of sexualization and we gotta be careful to not let this slip into pedophilia (I forgot the name of the "boy" but, in the magazine, he was sending a kiss while wearing very short clothes.. A shirt that showed his belly and a very tiny and tight shorts, this, for me, is stepping too far)
I say let him do drag. No surgeries, no padding, no adult magazine covers, no sex/sexy songs. Sometimes people just want to be pretty, have gorgeous hair, and wear a fun costume.
"No surgeries, no padding, no adult magazine covers, no sex/sexy songs."
then it wouldn't be drag
To an extent I agree, but I don't believe that they should be paraded around in this manner. If a kid wants to wear a dress, let them, but don't actively encourage them to adopt a particular clothing style, and certainly don't put them on a stage for the world to see. Acting is one thing, modeling is something else entirely.
Don't let children cross dress, it's wrong even for an adult and it's pedophilia if you let a child do it.
Let him dress in drag, don't Dress him in drag. They're very different.
You think he came up with the name Lactacia himself?
I think it should be ok if teenagers, once they have truly discovered sexuality, not a kid who hasn't even discovered what sex really is, good video btw you truly have improved
It’s not just dressing up; Lactatia was doing a pretty provocative routine in the original video.
In a PUBLIC PERFORMANCE.
If kids do drag, they should be dressing appropriately for people of the opposite gender OF THEIR THEIR AGE.
How is being turned into an icon for an adult magazine "playing dress-up?" I'm all on board with allot of what you are saying here, but pretending that this is the same thing as what other children are doing for an afternoon in their own homes is ridiculous. Its not the same thing at all. I'm not saying its wrong either, but shooting down opposing viewpoints on the basis of "all kids do it," is beneath you.
It isn't an appropriate culture for kids, _and it shouldn't be_
Personally I don’t think it’s appropriate. Not because of caging children confused by their sexualities, but we don’t allow little girls to go out in heavy makeup because it’s sexualisation so why is it any different with little boys. I understand that drag doesn’t HAVE to be sexual, but through letting your children through drag you are letting your child be sexualised in the eyes of many, even if it’s unintentional
Drag DOES have to be sexual. Otherwise, it's just playing dress-up.
Drag is NOT just dressing up. It's like the difference between naked and nekkid. Nekkid is being naked and also being up to something.
I was pleasantly surprised to discover that you included an interview with a man with an opposing view. I feel like you've grown. Respect!
Drag Kids reminds me of Toddlers & Tiara's...parents adding strangely adult female characteristics via makeup & clothing to make their minor children a creepy hybrid of "pretty" & adult "sexy"...if the kid is choosing things on their own with cross-dressing & makeup; great! But parents coaching this behavior and/or making their kids media spectacles with this type of drag dress seems both creepy & a way for parents to use their kids as tools to earn fame & money.
As for the issues I've seen with drag queen read alouds in libraries; anyone who is going to be volunteering or working with kids needs a criminal history background check and preferably a working/educational background in education or anything else related to child development.
Drag is totes fine and harmless on its own, just please don't sexulize kids
exactly!
drag is a sexual environment
Shmekeldorf That's like saying wearing makeup or clothes is sexual in nature. Drag CAN be, but the mere act of wearing drag is not
there is i giant fucking difference between drag and harmless cross dressing, which you are conflating with drag.
Shmekeldorf Cross dressing is simply putting on women's clothes, drag is achieving the appearance of a woman. So, unless you think all it takes to look like a woman is to wear a dress, you're wrong.
I agree with most of your points but I don't like the fact that it's getting all this publicity. This child is too young to know what he's doing. When he grows up he is going to be bullied because of the fact that when he was young he liked to dress up like a girl. When I was little I liked to dress up like a clown which I realize now was stupid. It's the same with this child. But I guess we will never know until he grows up.
Having survived pedophelia - the argument is pedophiles would be aroused by it is a non argument. Pedophiles are attracted to children, you don’t protect children by preventing them from dressing a certain way not engaging in drag or whatever. We all wish it was something so simple as to make sure our kids just don’t look certain ways and do certain things but the truth is a child is more at risk from family and close family friends.
I don’t know what the hell that magazine was thinking though and I do actually worry about his parents’ judgement because of that in this particular case. But that’s not the drag , like you said.
We can and should encourage age appropriate drag. I did dance as a kid - I heard comments about how my glitter leotard and red lips would attract pedophiles from adults that acted like I couldn’t hear them. My abuser never saw me at a dance recital, he saw me asleep in my PJs.
Tori Green it’s more about the fact that the parents are abusing him
I agree that children should express themselves. I do not agree that children should be twerking with adults. Thats the difference between sexuality and exploitation.
Do you think this is a way of grooming a child into an early sexual exploration before they have the mental faculties to handle it?
7:15 is an awkward argument because pedophiles would also be turned on by regular kids in not-drag. Should we just not be taking pictures of children, ever?
which does the pedophile gravitate to? regular kids? or pictures of naked kids? therefor which is more sexual?
now ask the same question about drag?
007kingifrit should we also not buy makeup for our daughters until they're too old for pedophiles to find attractive?
makeup and drag are a false comparison. also it is a woman's biological role to be sexualized, this is obviously not true for men
a man who wants to be in drag indicates mental illness and abuse, a female wearing makeup indicates.......normal behavior
men and women are not equal; got it?
You claim that make-up and drag is a false comparison, but also argue that nudity and drag are morally equivalent? Interesting.
You claim that it is the 'biological role' of a woman to be sexualized, and this is obviously not true for men. So what? What is your conclusion? How is this relevant to the discussion? Try to tie your points back to the thesis of "it is wrong for a boy to dress up as a woman".
Now I get to your only relatively coherent argument, You claim "a man who wants to be in drag indicates mental illness and abuse", which is a very strong claim to be making in the complete absence of evidence. I say males get abused *because* they dress up like girls, and that you're mixing up the cause and effect.
You then claim "a female wearing makeup indicates normal behavior" I do agree that women wearing makeup is normal behaviour. Again, so what? Connect this to your thesis.
You end with a final, baffling statement: "men and women are not equal; got it?". I agree, in the broad sense that men and women aren't the same. This isn't what we're arguing about though.
TL;DR: Seeing men dressed up like women makes you uncomfortable, I get it. To that I say - big whoop, buddy. Also in the future try to tie your arguments back to the thing that you're trying to prove, I feel like I'm tutoring English again.
We definitely can, but the real controversy comes in with placing children on social media or exploiting them as models of some kind. The simplest argument against this is understanding child actors. Many child stars can get an inflated ego or fall into some pretty bad habits due to their fame, and so it's best to give them some way to ground themselves so they can be separate from the stardom.
Meh... Another video by Laci Greene that dismissed and ignored major points about an issue so she could push an agenda... Who's shocked? It's clearly no accident she didn't show any video of him... This isn't a kid that's tossed on a wig and is playing "dress up" around the house... This is a 9 year old child that somehow managed to develop a full on "vamp" persona... And it seems pretty obvious that persona wasn't created in a vacuum... It was clearly encouraged and influenced by the adults around him... Anyone that's seen a video of this kid knows this isn't "art" or self expression
Check out my Twitter. I've been very vocal on this. Im a drag queen myself and Im very against it.
is it because of the open secret of pederasty amongst the gay community have a hit the nail on the head?
"Is drag for kids?" No.
If the kid WANTS to dress up as the other sex then I don't see the problem. I just see an issue with sexualising that and making it more of an issue of what is is (a kid dressing up)
you can be absolutely certain that a society conducive to this idea will lead children to do it. maybe the kid wants to try different clothes, but it's the parents who encourage the children by bringing them to shows and introducing them to this culture. it's not about letting kids do whatever they want in their leisure time. it's a culture based on the exploration of sexuality.
I'm just thinking of a little boy putting on his mother's lipstick and high heels for fun. I think that is fine but I agree that society can take advantage of that.
drag is a lot more than a boy trying his mother's shoes.
random taxpayer, I agree, I'm just speaking of a child here.
Yeah, I'm against kid drag in the same way I am against kid beauty pageants. Yeah, nothing wrong with kids "playing dress up" but I wouldn't parade my son in drag any more than I would take my daughter to pole dancing classes...
If it's not pushed on them by their parents, then sure who cares, within reason at least
Kids who aren't pushed by their parents don't dress in drag, they play dress up.
"Even though he's a child he does have his own agency." - I think Ian is wrong there, and I think this is the root of the problem. It's a weird phenomenon to me where progressives grant more and more agency to children. This is also the root of the issue in the trans children issue. I think your reservations are a little more on point.
It's hard not to blame what seems like increasing infantalization of adults in progressive groups on how they grant more and more agency to children. There's a reason children aren't granted consent in things like medical procedures or whether or not to go to school, and why there are age restrictions on addictive substances, and all of the other rights and freedoms children lack.
By all means, allow them to explore their own identity as they grow, but do not take seriously what they say about who they are or what they want. Hell, I know people in their damn 30's that I don't think know themselves well enough to make some life choices. :D My fear is that parents may be encouraging certain behaviors for the parents benefit. It looks a lot like "look at my drag queen kid! Aren't _I_ so cool for having a drag queen kid?! Don't _I_ get a lot of attention over it?!"
Michael Kreitzer Yeah where are the parents ???
IMO, that's the worst part of the modern progressive and sex-positive movements. They want to treat adults like children when it comes to dealing with consequences and being tolerant of dissenting opinions. And they want to treat children like adults when it comes to sexuality and being able to consent to permanently altering their bodies with hormones and cosmetic surgery.
Michael Kreitzer Even if drag was coerced, it would be the coercion not the drag. He's off topic, we aren't talking coercion, were talking DRAG!
Also, why isn't he as outraged about young girls being made to wear makeup and wigs. Remember: the child's gender should not be relevant to the choices he can make!
"Drag in general is sexuality gay" citation needed.
"There are gonna be adults that get turned on" who? How do you know? And wouldn't that happen without drag?
His tactics is to say pedophiles might be attracted to children. That's dumb. Pedophiles are attracted to children with or without drag. The things he said about plastic genitalia and sex toys are irrelevant. The topic is DRAG. He never provides evidence drag is coerced or inherently sexual.
Lacy: "I think Ian made some fair points here." Which?
I've been to a couple of my 6yo niece's dance recitals and it does come off as a bit creepy pedo. It's probably also a gender norms issue for boys in drag, like men doing effeminate things like ballet. I'm not going to lie but it does come off as homosexual behavior be shocking and flamboyant. I think the greater issue is less with playing dressup and more a question of idolizing children on magazines for trying to be sexy.
100 years ago it made sense for parents to be control freaks because you needed your kids to carry on the family practice. In today's standards of living, people have the freedom to choose what they want to do with their lives. It's not progressives doing this, it's society evolving with the times.
He's against it because of pedophiles? Pedophiles will be turned on by children wearing regular clothes too, why would drag specifically be wrong?
over sexualization
The thing is if he is saying he's sure people do not have the intent of creating something sexual, then what's wrong? We could make the argument that a lot of things are sexual when they aren't.
Here's my view but before I talk about Drag let me talk to you about something else.
When a kid at the age of 7 wants to fight in the army, it's okay for them to play with toy guns at home and pretend to be at the army but a child cannot grasp the concepts of death, real violence and other subjects in the army. So sending them to war at age 7 will completely hurt him if he's not ready. But when he reaches ages 18 then he can go to the army.
Now with drag, it's okay for a child to play dress up at home, put make up and other things. But they cannot grasp what sexual themes are, the social context, and other mature aspects as a drag. But when they reach age 18 then they can drag with the big corporations.
So a child can dress up at home but not at a big corporation until they are truly prepared.
I'm all for the drag community. But when it comes to children I tend to disagree. I think it's better for the child to be older to decide whether or not to be a drag queen. After all children usually are easier to manipulate. I'm not saying they can't make personal choices since some are smart enough to make them, but that I feel like when it comes to this situation specifically it is usually encouraged by adults. That can become a mental health problem issue to them because it can be forced by adults this way of thinking and this pressure can be damaging.
A lot of people aren't against drag, they're just worried for the kid. They are coming from a good place. The main concern should be to make sure that this is something of his own choosing, not something he's been conditioned to say or do. It's hard to prove it either way, but we need to be careful about the whole situation. We have to make sure everything is ok before giving him freedom. Only at that point can we say that this is ok. This is a transition point in our society, and while there are kind hearted people trying to be accepting, there are also many others trying to take advantage of this social change.
If the kid really wants to do it out of his own idea, I dont really have a problem with it, what I'm more worried about is parents that push it onto kids go get their 15 minutes of fame
I think with everything else there has to be a line .. I don’t see a problem with a kid throwing a wig on and her/her parents clothing if that’s what they choose.
But that line is crossed when the child is allowed to wear provocative clothing, attend club gigs and wear a full face of makeup etc etc it just becomes a massive problem.
Then again if you look at these pageants for children (mostly younger girls) it completely disgusts me! Even more so when you can tell the parents are forcing them to do it. Same thing rolls into young children in “drag” you have to look at what the child has chosen and what the parent has pressured them into - either to offer the parent a cheap laugh or the child to gain fame.
Chris IsBetterThanYou lol obviously no kid will be going to a club..
greenteasenpai Search on UA-cam .. it has happened ..
3:06 OH. Im chinese and obsessed with our beijing opera and theres a position called "nandan" which ive always thought comparable to drag in the west (men put on elaborate clothes, headdresses, and makeup and perform a theatre sort of show and it is very diverse) and it arose in the EXACT same way. Super cool, more respect to drag now tbh.
Not a very unbiased video. 5 minutes of your friend framing drag as expressive art without any sexual elements and without you challenging him at all and 3 minutes of the dumbest arguments from chung where you edited your responses in a very particulate way and then pulled straw man tweets out at the end.
Stu are you sure her friend said that drag has no sexual elements when he said himself “drag can be sexual, just like any artform can be sexual”?
alondra. He did say that but that downplays the sexual elements in drag culture which is sexual by definition. You can't separate it and he did a very good job covering that up by conflating it with all art (the broadest subject ever).
She literally said before she showed the tweets that they were going overboard.
Also, is there something wrong with a kid wearing a dress? I fail to see what the problem is... :\
Babyyoshi309 "going a little overboard" but she showed it anyway. it's still poisoning the well as if saying "if your not with me you are on the same side as these people" and she didn't do this for the other side. I'm sure you can find nutjobs on both sides of the argument. We don't know the mental side affects of young boys dressing in feminine clothing and this video doesn't help argue both sides equally like it's implying. Just saying.
+Stu
I believe that is why she talked to the guy. In order to get a less radical opinion. And while you can definitely find some radical claims from the other side as well, you cannot deny that claims like the ones she showed are a lot more abundant. Which is probably why she showed them.
Also, I don't like how you are using the "if you are not with me, you are against me" mentality. You know you can NOT choose a side right? You can be in the middle and form your own side.
I think the main problem is that it's children
I went to DragCon NYC. There was a little boy in a wig who thought my actual hair was a wig. It was adorable.
One angle that I don't think was explored sufficiently is the media attention inherent with children in drag. Because it's novel and controversial, many young people who engage in drag will be exposed to media attention which may not be healthy for their development. Aside from the immortalization of regrettable actions or words, and the potential for personality issues associated with fame, the attention could lead to bullying and physical harm. While the populace is becoming more and more accepting of alternative sexualities and self-expression, there are still plenty of people who aren't.
If your child is into drag, maybe think twice before filming it and putting it online for the world to see.
It's creepy how people can talk themselves into objectifying children.
I wouldn't let my 8 year old girl wear makeup either. It's wrong
The part that bugged me is that 5yr olds shouldn't be watching rupaul's drag race. It sends a lot of messages about your looks and sexuality and how you present it being your main worth to people. Showing that to a 5 year old is not responsible, that show is for adults.
After she stop being radical she became one of my favourite people to watch.
I look at this more from the perspective of a parent whose child was a competitive performance athlete. My daughter expressed a desire to skate from the time she could walk and a desire to compete at the age of 3. From age 3 to 7 we, as a family, lived ice skating. She practiced nearly 30 hours per week average plus classes and coaching. She wore her skates(with guards)and costumes everywhere except school. Once we really got involved in competing I personally invested a lot of time and money into something that could have been a career.
When people asked if she loved skating she said she did. I know she did.
When she was 7 she decided to do other things and have a social life at school. I was faced with a choice between my dreams for her and her dreams for her and wondered how much I might have taken advantage of her willingness to skate to her heart's content and made it an obsession of sorts.
I was lucky enough to have people around who remembered a Tonia Harding and her mother's obsessive abuse. Determined focus on practicing and winning which inevitably led to an attack on a competitor.
Does this child or these children really love drag or is it early childhood playing with mom's makeup and clothing turned into something for the parents to have pride over?
For me, personally, I'd be more concerned about the adults exploiting this child's 'fame' and what this child will get from that when he's older. I agree with Shoe, too, there is a line. There HAS to be a line.
I you’re going to listen to other people’s opinions, don’t talk over them. Give them time to speak and explain their words
Taquinqua I think it's because the conversation was edited afterwards for pace.
laci does have a bit of a problem with talking over ppl though. ie her convo with Blair White
well she's figuring out her style i guess but its a valid point
The interview with your drag queen friend, well casual conversation really, didn't do anything to alleviate my gut reactions to this drag kid. It sounds very much like it is being enforced, not just allowed to happen, and the video clips of the kid scream the same. I do think you think to highly of people, that there aren't pedophiles in hiding who absolutely will support this behavior because it gives them some eye candy. Fundamentally this is like a classier version of the 12 year old twerking for a group of adults at that pride parade. If it was something he did at home, for himself, maybe not, but clearly he is being put out in the world to be watched.
bertimusprime Even if drag was coerced, it would be the coercion not the drag. He's off topic, we aren't talking coercion, were talking DRAG!
Also, why isn't he as outraged about young girls being made to wear makeup and wigs. Remember: the child's gender should not be relevant to the choices he can make!
"Drag in general is sexuality gay" citation needed.
"There are gonna be adults that get turned on" who? How do you know? And wouldn't that happen without drag?
His tactics is to say pedophiles might be attracted to children. That's dumb. Pedophiles are attracted to children with or without drag. The things he said about plastic genitalia and sex toys are irrelevant. The topic is DRAG. He never provides evidence drag is coerced or inherently sexual.
Lacy: "I think Ian made some fair points here." Which?
bertimusprime what do you mean the video clips "scream" of the drag being "enforced"?
Maybe an age limit to when they could start? 16 or 18? Idk
Will Vandermark Why? Why would you put an age limit on when boys can wear dresses, put on lipstick, or do their hair? Would you put the same limits on makeup for girls? Even if drag was coerced, it would be the coercion not the drag. He's off topic, we aren't talking coercion, were talking DRAG!
Also, why isn't he as outraged about young girls being made to wear makeup and wigs. Remember: the child's gender should not be relevant to the choices he can make!
"Drag in general is sexuality gay" citation needed.
"There are gonna be adults that get turned on" who? How do you know? And wouldn't that happen without drag?
His tactics is to say pedophiles might be attracted to children. That's dumb. Pedophiles are attracted to children with or without drag. The things he said about plastic genitalia and sex toys are irrelevant. The topic is DRAG. He never provides evidence drag is coerced or inherently sexual.
Lacy: "I think Ian made some fair points here." Which?
How about making it illegal.
+007kingifrit Because as long as they aren't hurting others, you can't take people's rights away. friggin jackaaasss
one of the things that makes me so angry about the people that at least pretend to be worried about these kids for some reason is because a lot of the most vocal ones are also the same kind of person that considers everything else a parental right and is always ranting about their child there right but then want to tell these parents what to do.
I laughed out loud at the "what year is it" part !! 😂😂😂
Personally, I am not really comfortable with young kids doing drag. I would let them grow up first before letting them do whatever they want.
Are you sure you are not mixing up drag and transgender? It kind of sounds like you are talking about transgender.
I was NOT talking about trans. I was talking about drag.
Zero adds!!! thanks youtube for ruin youtubers
kids at a night club....unacceptable
This guy is making conflations like crazy. How is wearing clothes associated with the opposite gender an 'exploration of sexuality'?? Explorations of sexuality involve sex (or at least intimacy with another person) or masturbation or something.
Wearing clothes and not having sex, masturbating, or something tantamount to these things is not sexual!
I wasn't referring to the night clubs or clothing line stuff, that may well be sexualising (and almost certainly is, but i haven't actually looked into it). All I'm saying is wearing clothes of any gender isn't an exploration of sexuality.
It may well be (for some people in the right contexts) an exploration of identity (and this 'identity' may include sexual orientation signifiers), but it is not sexual. The word 'sexuality' isn't really about being gay or straight, it's about having a sex drive and living as a sexual being. When i came out as gay i started hanging around with girls more (and you could have called it an 'exploration of my gayness, queerness, or like cultural homosexuality), but it wasn't an exploration of my sexuality, it was of the non-sexual/societal dimension/stereotypes of the label/community my sexuality identified me with.
These are very different, and this guy was conflating them no end.
There is something called autogynephilia, and it refers to a man getting off on the idea of being a woman. It’s not 100% approved by all people, but I don’t feel it’s so far fetched to think that there is some other pleasure that one gets from it, but i don’t think everyone who does drag would do it for that reason.
HJones68 I think there’s a slight difference between letting a kid dress up in anything he/she/they want to and letting them dress up and perform in front of adult people. Ian said he doesn’t think the kid is being sexual, just that others (pedophiles) will see him that way. You can’t say that’s inflating the issue when he is put as a model for a bondage store.
Personally I think the kid should do whatever he wants, but it is the parents/guardians jobs to make sure it’s done in a safe and appropriate manner. Drag is performance art and I have a problem with a child performing for people in short dresses and makeup.
As i already said, I'm not defending what that specific kid example is doing, I don't know enough about the situation but yeah it sounds bad and i wouldn't let my child perform for adults, represent sex magazines, etc.
But what i was criticising was the guy in the video who was saying that the (non-performative) action of putting on clothes of the "opposite sex" is an exploration of sexuality. I also never claimed he was 'inflating the issue' (I mean, he wasn't referring to any specific issue or the kid Laci earlier used as an example, he was talking very generally about non-performative drag (i.e. children wearing 'opposite gender' clothing)
It's all fun and games until the parents throw them into the lime light. That is not okay. That's when it's almost impossible for abuse and sexualization to be avoided. Look at all the other child stars; Lindsay Lohan, Olsen twins Amanda Bines, Aaron Carter. It was innocent and 'oh look at my cute kid!!' and we all know how that ends.
Exactly.
Holy crap! A balanced video giving fair hearing to both voices of support and concerns. This was a very well presented video!
I get everything but just one thing that I don't get he likes dressing up as a girl since he was 2? Where did he got the dress? He bought it because he ''wanted it'' or perhaps the parents place the idea that he wants this so they could get public attention? Because I don't know any 2 year ols genuises that wants different clothes then what their parents given them. And this gives me the assumption about perhaps the parents wanted this attention all along so they give the kid feminen clothes from the begining. idea of making proud of his parents will stay there when
testosterone hits him and since he doesn't want to dissapoint his parents wishes he will try to repress his own general sexualty because I don't think most of the girls want a guy dressing up as a girl. (And this whole scenerio would be an extreme case but you can't say it is too low of a happening chance) And this coul assentially leads to an 20 year old hanging from ceiling... Yeah you can tell me that this would be extremely rare however it's not that out of a stretch. And part that I'm concerned by is no one will bat an eye that why that had happened. Because some people are willing to do anything to do to be famous including oppressing their child's sexualty other way around. And assuming everyone has good intentions these years could be dangerous.
I dunno, if it were a wee girl wearing that amount of makeup with the wigs and things, it would be questioned rigorously.
Calamity Natalie It happens and it is not questioned at all.
midorishiwa I would disagree, there has been massive uproar for years about girls in beauty pageants.
The uproar is because they are competing, not because they are wearing make up. All parents let their daughters play with make up at home. Also the uproar against beauty pageants is definitely not coming from the same people.
My biggest reservation about this ties very closely with how I feel about parents who publicly praise their children for being 'trans' and stigmatize them for acting hetero-normative. Kids are very malleable and parents forcing kids into roles that suit their own agendas is wrong to me. There is always the argument that "Hey, the kid looks they are loving it" but that is only because of the praise they are getting from their parents and other adults while being shielded from the harsh reality of public perception. And like you said, this doesn't only apply to this topic but to forcing your children into anything and then bubbling them off. Child TV stars, child beauty pageants, and this are good examples of exploiting your child for your own goals.
Of course you get into this weird dichotomy on this subject when the child is the instigator for publicizing these things and then it becomes this parental balance of "Making my child happy now" and "Will this make my child happy in the long run"
Just discovered you via This American Life. I'm a new subscriber, with a 4 y/o daughter. Looking forward to getting through your stuff. So glad you're making these accessible videos!