Legend of the Galactic Heroes - Westerland
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- Опубліковано 25 вер 2010
- In this scene, Reinhard(with convincing from Oberstein) chooses not to divert the senseless death of two million people. With the intent to broadcast the terrible event to the citizens of the empire- effectively illustrating the brutality and deception of the noblemen.
Oberstein, more than likely, is the number one realist in the entire cast of LOTGH. He assesses situations from a purely logical point of view. And will do anything for what he considers the "greater good".
He had neither the charisma and ambition of Reinhard nor the wisdom and likableness of Yang. Nonetheless, Oberstein was competent at warfare and a peerless logician- there were no holes in his reasoning.
Kircheis, Reinhard's right hand man and best friend, assesses the war from a more humanistic point of view. While he believes in the merit of self-sacrifice, he believes it should not be done without the consent of the one being sacrificed , or in this case, many many persons being sacrificed.
Growing up with Reinhard and harboring the same childhood dream; it was of great disappointment to Kircheis, when he confirmed the rumors of his dear friend's "unrighteous" way of doing things.
While Reinhard could be considered the most ambitious, Oberstein the most efficient, Kircheis the most righteous, I believe Yang is the wisest. I believe he'd have sided with Kircheis on this one. - Фільми й анімація
I really like how it's painfully visible that Reinhard is being tortured over that situation, without even one word mentioning the fact. It's all clearly visible from his body language alone.
That is why the new animation they are setting up for the 2018 release does not do justice to the original.
In the novel, the kaiser tsundere is fully aware of what will happen. He does not oppose to allowing the massacre AT ALL.
@@makosensei9998 Ну так выброси этот роман на помойку. А вообще лгать не хорошо, знаешь об этом?
@@kaiserreinhardvon-lohengra9652 What are you talking about, Ivan? Have you ACTUALLY read it?
@@makosensei9998 Ивана в зеркале увидишь, осёл. С лжецами не разговаривают, так что шёл бы ты отсюда подальше.
Correction: Reinhard actually didn't say yes to Oberstein's plan, instead Reinhard said he'd think about but was firmly against it. But Oberstein lied to Reinhard about the time when the attack was going to take place. By the time Reinhard found out it was too late.
Yeah,reinhard was in distress about it. he did seem ambivalent though after the conversation with oberstein.
It was slightly different in the books, Reinhard did approve of the plan almost right away.
The books were poorly written compared to this masterpiece of an OVA series.
Sure, but Lohengramm never denied the plan either. Obsrstein did it behind his back.
Reinhard couldn't decide and Oberstein made the decision for him. Still didn't stop him from feeling guilty (Maybe without Westerland, Alexander would have never been born?)
One of the many masterful stunts this series pulls is the controversy of the Westerland. It seems like Reinhard and Kircheis's friendship would forever be stained over Kircheis's concern for this issue. But then episode 26 happens, and the hot topic suddenly becomes insignificant.
Sometimes I wonder whether a bolder reply from Kircheis would be appropriate (as a friend, people are on equal terms...)
Then again Kircheis was on a mission to help Reinhardt conquer the galaxy and accepted the socio-cultural hierarchy of him as a superior in their conversation. And it makes sense given all that I knew about Kircheis from the start.
Masterful stuff.
And the rift between Oberstein and Reinhard never has more serious consequences - perhaps because Kircheis was out of the way.
@vaas d
Yeah guys, i'm understand with your opinion about
Oberstein & Reinhard's relationship well
(If only Siegfried Kircheis was here...😔)
@vaas d Yeah. The no "number 2" ideal might have been a bad turn but it wasn't without it's merits. Eventually Oberstein was proven correct because Reuenthal becomes that "number 2" in terms of power but despite the two knowing that they have utmost loyalty to each other they also played a dangerous game of pride and wanted to fight each other despite how much lives and resources that the civil war could cost. But the damning evidence is that Oberstein is proven correct in a different way because it's not that the "number 2" can't be trusted but it's the fact that a ruler and someone with almost the same amount or equal in power could be used as a puppet to topple the other. In other words, despite the trust it created a weakness in the empire which was slowly exploited.
The final days of the Kaiser are haunted by this event, even in victory eventually over the Free Planets Alliance.
That scene where the light of the wine stains his hand - representing the blood of the innocents. Man even if its old it ages well, for the directors knew good cinematography.
ワインの明かりが閣下の手を染めて、犠牲になった人々の血を表すシーン。古くても製作者の魂を感じられて今でも面白いと思う出来だな！
Jup many of hte old SPace operas do, even Gundam. It's a shame how much the newer anime is so much Fanservice and so little detail. ON top of that, it clearly shows how power corrupts and how the moment you divide and allow for corruption, you will lose against those that have experience in abusing corruption and using division for many generations and centuries.
That's because Noboru Ishiguro directed OG LOGH, he's very good at this, he also directed the original SDF Macross anime series.
4:55
I guess you could say it... aged like wine
The moral dilemma still stands, is one man's life less important than those of thousands? This was a turning point in his character development making him more shady than righteous and pointing towards an unfulfilled ending.
Oberstein carried the blame overriding Reinhard's authority, but Reinhard nevertheless took responsibility ... This shows that being a hero of the size of the imperial admirals following Reinhard is not beautiful and not honorable. One of the great achievements of LOGH is to show how much we have to sacrifice to make a better world.
A lot of the times they don't though.
ヤンウェンリー「将来の恐怖をもって、現在の流血を正当化する輩は過去に幾らでもいたさ。政治的弾圧は大抵、それが口実に使われるんだ。」
パウル「将来の恐怖ではなく、将来の、より多くの流血なのです」
『私は閣下の忠実な部下です、ローエングラム侯』この言葉でもうね。
3:34 Love that reaction!!! So real!!!
5:42 Kircheis's truth and supreme irony, and Reinhard's biggest failure. Reinhard lost Kircheis
こういうのをきっちり描けるのが銀英伝の魅力の一つ。
大河とかでやったら抗議が殺到しそうだものな。
@@kamkam_99 前に『黒田官兵衛』で秀吉に歯向かった城井鎮房を暗殺する話あったけど、それであのシリーズのファンを辞めた知り合いいたわ…史実らしいし講義のしようもなかったろうが。
"The new order you will establish must be B A S E D"
And based it indeed was.
Nice to see current new Internet term meme here, it shows LoGH is truly ageless and timeless masterpiece
Here comes the Based age.
"Lord Reinhard, the new order you will establish must be based..."
remember 2 million westerlander
Это проблемы их и сеньора.
Says the guy with Oberstein did nothing wrong profile name :P
Greatly exaggerated numbers
OY VEY
Westland was an inside job!
キルヒアイスがこの場にいたならば、このような策は絶対に止めたであろう、と、原作にもしっかり書かれていますね。
この一件小説版でも記載がされないのだけど、ヤン・ウェンリーがこの一件を知らないはずがないんだよね。この手法はまさにルドルフ・フォン・ゴールデンバウムと全く同じ手法をとっている。つまり彼は状況によってはヤンがおそらく最も憎んでいる歴史的極悪人と同じ手を染めた事実そのもの。本来なら作品でこれに深く失望するヤンを描いてほしかったんだけどね。作品の構成上できなかったのかね？
If Kircheis was there instead of Oberstein, things would have been different.
This is probably the best show I've ever seen.
I wouldn't follow Oberstein's recommendation.
Well it's because of Oberstein Reinhard got to where he wanted later in the show. It's because of Oberstein why things were done successfully. Although bad things had to be done for the sake of progress.
Oberstein was willing to be the shadow to Reinhard's light, but his thinking was stone cold, almost robotic.
Paul von Oberstein was not the man Reinhard wanted, but he was the man he needed the most, after Kircheis, i'd say.
"If only Kircheis was here".
Oberstein was probably the smartest character in the show always putting the greater good a true greater good over morals
@@eustace8520 Oberstein carried the blame overriding Reinhard's authority, but Reinhard nevertheless took responsibility ... This shows that being a hero of the size of the imperial admirals following Reinhard is not beautiful and not honorable. One of the great achievements of LOGH is to show how much we have to sacrifice to make a better world.
Oberstein's recommendation is logical and effective, that is when viewed on a more linear and in the direction to a different goal. His plan was visibly familiar to that of what Rudolf would have done, Kircheis explanation was through a far broader approach yet which also diverges to what Oberstein thought Reinhard's true goal was. To Oberstein, Reinhard only wants power and that he has not thought of what else there is afterwards. But kircheis believed that there was a reason to obtaining power, a deeper meaning to Reinhard's goal.
Oberstein knew there was a reason too. That is literally why he approached Reinhard in the first place. If this war kept going, many more people would have been killed by the nobles, Kircheis was wrong here.
Oberstein was looking at the bigger picture. He saw a situation were millions of people were going to die one way or the other. He saw the deaths at Westerland as preferable to the many more deaths that would occur elsewhere if the wars continued. Kircheis represents a moral decision while Oberstein represents a cynical "realist" political decision. Neither was right and neither was wrong.
@@Jim-Tuner I respect this opinion but the mindset of "Neither was right, neither was wrong" is useless once in the face of decision making. I also would like to object, Oberstein could see himself looking at the bigger picture, but I personally think his decision was violating other human principles such as morality.
Either way, the way the story settled this was a masterpiece. One had to slide something beneath the other's.
@@neck-oHuman principles are useless when no humans are alive.
Life is greater than morals. No moral can be better tha tens of millions saved by the less cost.
@@andresamartins26its ironic, such idealism lead you to think that the soldiers are just humanless tools that can be used or sacrificed at will sake.
明確に同意したわけではないのに自分の責任から逃げないのはさすがだわ
俺だったら「オッ、オーベルシュタインが勝手に！！」と言っちゃう自信がある
山田タロウ 情けなさすぎる苦笑。
原作ではラインハルト本人が渋りながらも結局オーベルの提案に乗ったんだけどね。
安倍「秘書が勝手にやった！ 私は関与してない！」
そんなんじゃそもそも宇宙を手に入れられないから心配すんなw
僕、これを観た当時から思ってたんですが、まず核攻撃は妨害しておいて、そこから手早くベスターラントから民衆を退去させ(すぐ被爆する一帯だけでも優先して最終的に200万が間接被爆も避けられたらいい)、後日その無人になった地帯に千体程のマネキンでも置いて核を落とし、焼け焦げた死体のように偽装した映像を拡散させたら、それだけで貴族軍は浮き足立つし、ベスターラントは数十年人は住めなくてもラインハルトもあそこまで罪を背負ったりキルヒアイスと分断される事もなかったのでは…と思ってます。
それが姑息と言われようが何だろうが実害を受ける人を極力ゼロにして敵を無力化させるのは戦略の基本だと思うんだ…あんな事したオベにもその今一歩の知恵が欲しかった。
I agree with you, in the end Oberstein does sacrifice himself for Reinhard.
I would respectfully disagree with the notion.
Reinhardt was the most important piece in Oberstein's plan to bring more peace to the galaxy. If he did sacrifice himself for anything it was to bring (his perception of) peace to the galaxy
@@showmicr Yea if it wasn't Reinhard Oberstein was content with John or a dog, Reinhard was just the perfect vessel for his dream.
これは本当は防がないといけない話です。
ワザと見逃したとわかればなんの効果もないどころか、ラインハルトも同罪になる。
ヤン・ウェンリーは俺が尊敬する人。その次は、オーベルシュタイン。
コメント欄を除くと真っ当で、建設的な意見がたくさん見られるよね。それだけでも、このアニメが存在する価値があると思う。
完全に同意。
今の若者に考えさせるためにも、リメイクの価値はあったと思う。
自分はリメイクは見ないけど。
5:00 And for the "rest" of series we will constantly listen to the excact oposite :p
3:13 Reinhard: Sore ga Doushita?
Kirchies: Well I guess I can't argue aginst such point!
オーベルシュタインはラインハルトの手を汚させたかったのだと思う。
ラインハルトを、マキャベリや自分が理想とするような君主にするために。
部下や民衆に愛される王者ではなく、畏れられる覇者となることを望んでいたからね…
でも原作ではヴェスターラントへの核攻撃黙認をラインハルト自身が決断してるんだよな。
こりゃ酷えってことでアニメでは改変したんだろうけど
滝野川隼人 まぁその改変が嫌いな人もいるみたいだけどね。
この選択は貴族側に有能な者がいた場合、撮影の工作艦を逆に撮影されて「ローエングラムは民衆の為と言いながら、その民衆を利用しようとした」と風潮されたらかなり士気を削がれたと思う。ヘタするとヴェスターラント出身者を反乱させるリスクすら出てくるかな…キルヒアイスですらこの動揺ぶりだし。
それはない。なぜなら、加害者は貴族側で、どう言いつくろっても、貴族の+にはならないから。藪蛇で、貴族の失点になる。
キルヒアイスの言うことくらいラインハルトはわかっているし自分も本来ならキルヒアイス側の思いだったのに、オーベルシュタインの正論に迷ってしまった。
彼が論理の人に振ってたから。
その迷いが、ベスターラント核攻撃を行なわしめた。
それはラインハルトの悔やんでも悔やみきれない失策だった。
だからキルヒアイスに対して『俺が悪かった』と間違いを認められなかった。
自分が悔やんでいるところをキルヒアイスが正論で追い詰めた。
民を犠牲にしないためにふたりで貴族の支配を終わらせる、それがラインハルトと歩んだキルヒアイスの人生だったから。
そしてラインハルトが人の道から外れないように見守る、それが最愛の人アンネローゼとの約束だったから。
その結果、ラインハルトはキルヒアイスを切り離すしかなくなった。
Once again today was the day... Oberstein did nothing wrong
この時に、忠実な部下ではなく、親友だと答えていたら、ラインハルトも救われたのじゃないかと思ってしまった
なるほど、たしかにそうかもしれませんね。忠実な部下って言った時、違和感がずっとあったんだけど、納得しました。「親友（友人）です、なればこそ、親友の誤りを正すのも親友の務めなのです。」って言ってみてほしかったですね。
マッツ
共感してくれて嬉しいです。
ヤンの言葉を引用するなら、「人間は自分が悪であるという認識に耐えられるほどに強くはない」というのが、まさに当てはまる場面だったんじゃないかなと。
自分自身が悪(門閥貴族と同じ)になってしまったという苦い自覚があるから、キルヒアイスにだけは許してほしかった。
でも図星をついてくるキルヒアイスの言葉が辛くって、そこから逃げるために「いつ意見を求めた？」と距離を取ろうとしてしまった。
キルヒアイスの立場でいえば、友に突然上司部下である関係を持ち出されて、売り言葉に買い言葉で「忠実な部下です」って言ってしまった。
とはいえその程度よくある口喧嘩で、この二人なら乗り越えられたと思うんだけど、いかんせん二人にはその時間がなかった。
とにかく悲しい(涙)
おぉなるほど。ずっとラインハルトの心情がわからなかったんですが、その通りですね。数十年のもやもやが解消できてよかったです。ありがとうございます。時間がもっと欲しかったですね。
キルヒアイスを特別扱いしないという事で銃を奪うのではなく、双璧とルッツにも銃を持たせる事で特別扱いにならないって事にしてほしかったです。そうすればきっと死なないですみましたね。
マッツ
それは思いつかなかったです。
それならオーベルシュタインも文句言えなかったのに(笑)
るかひ ちなみに原作では『「私は閣下の忠実な部下です、ローエングラム候」この問いと、この答えによって、なにか見えない貴重なものが、音もなくひび割れたことを、ふたりとも悟っていた。』と続きます。その後ラインハルトがこの時に自分からキルヒアイスに謝ればよかったと、一時の感情でつまらない意地を張った自分に何度も後悔する場面があり、切ないです…
Oberstein was a blessing to Reinhard, he does what other "honorable" admirals can't do
True but he also source of discord inside Reinhardt chief staff costing several of skilled officer.
Like Hilde have said, he's "strong medicine." Always says and does the most efficient things but aren't necessarily just or true. He deliberately meddled with Reinhard's rule and introduced elements such as Lang and Ansbach who not only made a attempt on Reinhard's life but at least took down many good admirals on his side and caused a civil war. That being said, everything Oberstein have said was statistically correct but it led to other problems because of it, may have even stressed out Reinhard so much that it led to his inevitable illness.
@@noobster4779 You can blame the conservatives in the empire for that, as Oberstein stated when the audience first meets him: "If I was born on Rudolf´s time, I´d be dead", Oberstein was put through many live of die situations in the show because of those bastards and his pride and respect for what he was, were the main reasons why he died in one of the most heroic deaths in the show, destroying conservatives and fanatics just like they would´ve undoubtebly attempted to destroy him and everything he represented.
@@noobster4779 Thanks for the insight, Rubinsky
He was both a blessing and a curse. Never forget that the thing that happens right after the last scene of this video was Oberstein's fault.
このセリフは、ラインハルトが予想していたセリフで、でも、キルヒアイスには…分かって欲しかった…
そんな、瞬間
キルヒアイスは、ラインハルトを信じていたからこそ、言った言葉なのですね…
DVD(Blu-ray？)盤は綺麗に書き直してるけど、私はこの作画が好きですね。
二度、いや三度号泣させやがったくそったれなアニメですぜこれは
To reduce casualties, they needed to sacrifice innocent people. After all, history repeats itself.
ともだちのセリフ：ルドルフと同じではないですか、ラインハルト様ならきっと分かって下さる、結果、ともだち死亡、レクイエム「深い嘆きの森」（ひぐらし）とホーリーマミさんのテーマ曲なども併せて、「是非！」（エンケン）
Correct me if I am wrong, but Oberstein's personality is a lot similar to that of Tommy Lascelles from The Crown. Ruthless and calculative. Also would work tirelessly for his employers.
It was a tough call; you cannot blame anyone here, it is about war and politics. All you could do as a leader is make the call and bear the consequences which could be favourable and / or bad.
Uh no I can blame Oberstein
U sure homie?
@@philipschneider7806
You = 🤡
やっぱり、キルヒアイスのその後がみたいわー！引退でも反乱でもいいから生きてくれ
後年、ラインハルトはお前はいったい俺のなんだ？という問いに自ら答えをだしている「Mein Freund」と
@voidofambition Alexander Bucock death affected me a lot too, I knew he was gonna sacrifice himself, but the way he did it, it was so noble... Yangs death was also tragic but it felt right to the theme of the show, one way or another everyone dies, the manner he faced it was as Yang himself, humble and not afraid.
И причём тут эти дегенераты, развязавшие войну и за её эскалацию погибшие?
“needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few” spock
Oberstein wasn't incorrect on some points, but ultimately I believe this sacrifice was superfluous, not to mention evil. I actually consider it a rare case where Oberstein's advice is not good.
As Reinhard pointed out, the war was already decided. Sure, Geiersberg Fortress would take a lot more time and soldiers' lives to take, but ultimately it would have fallen. The Lipptstadt Coalition was already finished, and were merely delaying their own death.
Sacrificing 2 million people and a garden world to nuclear glassing wasn't worth it since it fundamentally didn't change the outcome of the war. There's no way the High Nobles could have won the war and then be able to kill more than the 2 million people that were killed on Westerland, as Oberstein suggested.
If Reinhard was actively losing the war, or at a critical point where it could have gone either way, then Oberstein's advice to let the High Nobles commit political suicide with the glassing of Westerland would have been sound (but still evil, just the lesser evil compared to letting the High Nobles potentially win). As it were, all Reinhard got with letting the people of Westerland die was a faster victory and an even stronger propaganda victory (that he didn't need given how he already had insane levels of support from the commoners already).
The war was decided but the casualities and status quo of the empire not.
with a meager price Oberstein saved multiple lives and catapulted Reinhard inevitably to the throne
I think strategically it was still a good thing, popular opinion shifts a lot, and every country goes through hard times, Reinhard was completely overthrowing the old system and installing a new one, he needed solid popular support that would never shift no matter what, with this final massacre, or even genocide, the nobles have solidified their place in popular memory, even in our world people feel nostalgia for dictators and tyrants if the country under the next ruler goes through hard times, but by making their very last act, and the last nail in their coffin, to be this mass massacre, it’s ensured no one would feel nostalgia for them, and Reinhard would solidify himself in the history books as being the good ruler that saved the universe for the evil nobles
戦略的にも政略的にもやむを得ない手段だったのだ。…ラインハルトの口から出てくるとは思えない陳腐なセリフ。ラインハルト自身、全く信じていないからむなしく響く。
The moment Reinhard became Heisenberg.
what is the version?? it is the same the version that I watch it but the drawing is older
Impossible Youth This is the laserdisc version, the one you watched was Blu-ray which had redrawn scenes.
Onik I see
Impossible Youth The Blue-ray seems to focus in Reinhard’s movements during the preaching more. He even turned his face away while talking to Kircheis at one point, but this version doesn’t have that scene.
One shot, every time Oberstein says Kakka
キルヒアイスは戦闘が長引いた時の市民の犠牲については何も語っていないな
たしかに、じゃあ他に犠牲少なく勝つ方法あんの？って言われたらどう答えたんだろうね？
@@user-mz7jy1fj9l それでも目前の200万人の命を犠牲には出来ないと答えるだろうね、キルヒアイスは。
オーベルシュタインの言う事はいつも論理的には正しいけど、道徳観には背いているから……何とも言えない…
論理的にも正しくないぞ。
@納豆せんべい さん 論理的には正しい。
@草俊幸 さん 言葉の正しい意味で、国家100年の長計に資したわけだから特に問題ない。これをやっておかなければ、ちょっと傾いたときに、大貴族復活論が出てくる可能性があった。それを潰した。
@M名無しの さん トータルとして、+が大きいため問題にならない。
@@therealist4113 速攻で真相が辺境の軍人までにバレた上に国家の礎の人材をこの事件がきっかけで失い、さらに暗殺されかかっておりますが。何が国家１００年の長計ですか？
Reinhard was swayed by Oberstein's sound, and indeed correct, logic, but in doing so he went against his own convictions. Convictions less utilitarian and more self-righteous, perhaps, but convictions which made him who he was, and which earned him the awe, trust, and respect of his followers.
Whereas Oberstein gave rational political/military advice proper to a statesman, Kircheis recognised that Reinhard's strength lay in his pure will & conviction, and in his ability to follow through with them against all odds and to achieve his lofty, noble goals. Something greater than rationality, and something more valuable, in his assessment, than the price paid for it (lots of dead soldiers). By sacrificing the innocent civilians of Westerland to efficiently further his political goals, Reinhard betrayed himself (and indeed he could never forgive himself for this). Kircheis recognised this; he wanted to save his friend, and put him back on the track of pure-hearted righteousness.
神は罰としてキルヒアイスの死とアンネローゼとの決別を与え、ラインハルトは銀河を手に入れたものの早世することになった
これはオーベルシュタイン閣下の合理性の限界と思う。
理論としては俺も賛同する拍手して。
けど人としては賛同できないな。
たすけて！と言う支援者に勝つために全員死んで犠牲になれ。
だからな。
In WW2, the United States did not discuss the dropping of atomic bombs on Japan
That is the level of education and warriors of American leaders
My only problem with this scene is that I didn't buy Oberstein's argument about shortening the war based on what had been shown. It had been depicted as well under Reinhard's control. No intense resistance back from Odin and incompetent organization amongst the "rebels".
Don't forget we have the FPA too. If the war drag out too long, you know what will happen. A pincer attack
Merkatz was still in charge though and he's one of the best military minds in the show evidenced by many saying so such Reuenthal, Mittermeyer, Yang Wen-li, and Reinhard himself.
Hey guys! Just so you know the English transalation of the first novel is coming out next spring. You can pre order it on amazon
+Jeb Odle
It's not that easy to explain so you have to fill in the gaps using imagination and knowledge of history/political theory. It's most probable that Reinhard's position was never secure. Most of the nobility that did back him only did so for a limited amount of time and because they hated Braunschweig more. If the war dragged on, they'd probably switch sides. The "rebels" were not entirely incompetent, eventually Merkatz would have gotten the upper hand over Braunschweig's hubris. He would have to play whackamole with turncoat nobles, further spreading out his fleets and exposing his forces to clever counterattacks from Merkatz. Another danger was Lichtenlade in Odin who conspired to politically outmaneuver him. Time would have worked in his favor, allowing him to bring about Reinhard's downfall. Moving faster than his opponents could unite and react to was key to his success in overthrowing the Goldenbaum dynasty.
Typical UA-cam Commenter - CK2 players understand this. In Crusader Kings 2, rulers accrue a steadily increasing opinion penalty (BAD) the long they stay at war.
この辺りって目的のためなら手段を選ばないラインハルトとそれが出来ないヤンとの対比だよなってって思う。
でもヤンに対しては手段を選ぶラインハルト。
sss
まあ手段を選ばなかった結果、心の支えを失ったラインハルトにしてみればヤンと戦う事だけが心の支えになってしまったからなぁ。
@Atrahasis7 But it didn't raise his reputation. Oberstein maintained a bad reputation in death.
核兵器で焼かれる民衆を見ると涙が出る。結局、戴冠式のテロリストが生き残った民衆だったよね。
В данном случае террористы - те, кого сожгли.
ヴェスターラントを忘れたか！！
この時二人の何かが壊れた
それを修復したのはキルヒアイス自らの命を盾にして ラインハルトを守ることになろうとは・・
作者ものちに悔やむ キルヒアイスの死 名場面
原作ではラインハルトは最後に納得して見殺しにしたけれど、
アニメではちょっとでもラインハルトを立てるために
オーベルシュタインに騙されたことになっているね。
原作は知らないけどアニメって多少アレンジしてるところもあるんですね
小椋隆一 細かいところだともっとアニメオリジナルシーンはあったりするよ
短期的には成功かもしれないが、長期的にはオーベルシュタインからしても大失策であった。
キルヒアイスの死は、オーベルシュタインからしても計算外過ぎる大失敗だからね。
Based oberstein
trolley problem
Sure it may have happened... but 2 million?
at most it was 200k
あっ これ視て何か前のの良さが伝わってきたわ。まぁだからといって「今のはクソ！」とは思わんけど
01:52 Poor Machiavelli, so mistreated, lol
He didn’t meant it like that :")
オーベルシュタインの言う事は正しいが、それはやってはいけない事だ
エーリッヒハルトマン さん
仮に軍を送ったとしても、無数にいる艦艇の中から証拠となる工作艦と核兵器を無傷で鹵獲しなければいけないから難しいよね。
下手に自爆されれば自軍に被害が出てしまうし。
もし両軍が乱戦状態時に核兵器が発射された場合、疑いの矛先は惑星の所有者では無く、そこに急行してきたラインハルト側に掛けられるかもしれない。
下手に介入した事で、格好のプロパガンダの材料として逆手に取られ、貴族連合の指揮が上がったら元も子もないわ。
側から観るとこの救出作戦は、補給線の乏しいラインハルト軍にとって結構ジリ貧なんだよね。
下手に艦隊を動かせば兵は疲弊し、物質はすぐに枯渇。
またガイエスブルグ要塞への包囲網に穴が開いてしまう。
ラインハルト軍は相手の工作艦が特定できない以上、ヴェスターラントに現れる貴族軍を殲滅しなければ行けないし、第二陣に備えてヴェスターラントを統治下に置かなければならない。
変な話だが貴族連合は「核兵器を使用する可能性がある」という風評から、少数の工作艦を多方面に展開するだけで、その都度ラインハルト軍は艦隊を派遣しなければならないという悪循環に陥っているんだよね。
オーベルシュタインの助言は、人として最低だけど、参謀として的確だよ。
確かにこの部分のストーリーは少々強引かもしれないけど、これは娯楽作品なんだ。
目くじら立てず、足りない部分はファンの妄想で補うのも楽しみの一つだと思うよ。
長文失礼しました。
@草俊幸 お前は人間の内に入らない。
今議論しているのは人間の犠牲の話だ。
お前みたいな他人を尊重できない奴には、元から関係の無いことだ。
@草俊幸 多数の人間が犠牲になり、真実は直後にあっさりバレ、キルヒアイスは死に、後で暗殺されかかる。
完全に失敗じゃね？
キルヒアイスの言う事の方が正しい。玉に瑕を作れば付け込まれる。実際、同盟に対して玉に瑕を作り(亡命皇帝の受け入れ）付けこんだのだから、オーベのやり方はちょっと矛盾してる。自己の立場強化として見た方が自然に解釈できると思う。
@草俊幸 さん 短絡的の対極で長期的見通しに立った、良い提言。真に受けたから大成功した。
It's something of a commentary on the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. These have historically been justified in the sense that they helped end the Pacific War earlier, without a potentially vastly more costly invasion of Japan. Heck, the invasion of Okinawa resulted in the same death toll as that bombing. Nuclear weapons in anime are often featured with a sense of great horror, but perhaps, when writing this incident, Yoshiki Tanaka was reflecting more specifically on the reasons rather than the act itself.
That is the justification given in history classes. The reality of that specific scenario was that Japan's was basically close to surrendering, the scientists and generals wanted to test out the bomb.
@@Agnosticuzumaki If Japan wants to surrender, they would've done so a long time ago. From what I understand, at the time they're still split, and the bombs and Soviet breaking their truce help sway the opinion.
@@Hell_O7 作中で言われていることだが、如何なる理由があろうとも民間人を虐殺して良いという法がどこにあるのか、ファシズムからの開放を標榜していた連合国がその開放すべき民間人を殺すのは掲げた正義の旗を自ら破り捨てるものではないのか、正当化の論法としてあまりに杜撰かつ本末転倒であることは明らかである。
I know it has been long since this comment, but the Japanese at that time were going for a conditional surrender, hence the suicidal tactics they carried on by sending millions to die by crashing in the aircraft transporters, causing expensive casualties to the U.S.
In fact, one of the conditions in which the U.S imposed on the Japanese is that akihiko emperor of that time had to release a public statement to the Japanese all over the radio stations and tv stating that he was not a diety or a holy figure, which was one of the things that fueled the suicidal mentality the soldiers had for their ruler. Basically, they considered japan = emperor and dying for the emperor is dying for japan.
Therefore, the bombing was justified to stop the bloodshed that would have been caused at that time. Even if behind the scenes it was a power display for the U.S to put a check on the Soviet union and eventually the world leading to what we have now, a global economy lead by the dollars.
@@wbasmithat's a very american centric way of viewing things - US avoided the extra casualties and even got a good profit, therefore everything was justified. This logic opens a pandora box - should we apply this approach to modern wars and just nuke eachother over and over again? After all what's hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties to potential however many years of war? At some point someone will preemptively drop a nuke on Washington too, you know, would you then scramble to find justifications too?
Paul Von "Gazillions Must Die" Oberstein
Where can i watch the entire series without the new animations that comes and go between the episodes ?
download torrent that is before 2010 , by Central Anime
リメイク版ではこの過ちをせずキルヒアイス生存→反乱が長引くが後日の決戦でアイスがヤンウェンリ－を撃退、結果的に同盟、帝国の和平エンドのハッピーエンドにならないかな
リメイクするならイフがあってもよいやない
この件といいNo2不要論の件といい、オーベルってリアリストというより若干ドグマティストのきらいがあるよなぁ。
Nice but on which chapter hitler enters?
嗚呼キルヒアイス！
Honestly, this looks so much better than the shitty remaster.
Agreed, I downloaded laserdisc vesrion from Central Anime because of annoying reanimations on DVD and BluRay realise.
@batmanpronz
he had his dog... so he wasn't alone.
一方トルーマン米大統領は原爆で何十万もの日本人を虐殺することをためらいもしなかった
当時米国政府内にも原爆投下を反対する声もあったと聞くが…
現代でも米国の公式見解はオーベルシュタインの見解そのままだし
現実のほうが物語世界よりもずっと残酷だね
Ты дура? С Труменом история абсолютно иная, и нечего тащить её сюда.
Не указывай мне, не то придётся тебе идти в некомфортное место.
莫大な予算をかけた「マンハッタン計画」の成果を出さないままという訳にはいかなかったという事か？ 新たな仮想敵国であるソ連への牽制と新兵器を軸にした戦争戦略もあったろうが、結局は多くの犠牲者と開発した側にも「科学者は罪を知った。」という言葉と共に深く暗い苦悩が歴史に残された。
@@sss-jm8wo なるほど。原爆は複数個所有してたんだし、一発目は日本のどこかの無人島にでも落として欲しかったな。
The old noble did the wrong thing, but Reinhard didn’t do the right thing either.
I don't think that Reinhard or Oberstein did anything wrong, considering that they were not the ones that performed the attack.
If Reinhard and Oberstein ordered the attack, and framed it on the Old Nobles however.
But then, the sacrifices would have been worth it since Reinhard would have achieved his goal of becoming emperor anyways.
ordering an attack really isn't any better than executing it...
Это дело Брауншвейга, а не этих парней.
In germany you could go to prison for acting like that. For example: a person is bleeding out on the street and you notice it. If you dont help him and just leave him to die you commit a crime that is only slightly less worse than actually commiting murder. Because you fully concient leave that person to die. Its similar to a book keeper working at Auschwitz death camp during the Holocaust. He isnt actively commiting genocide by himself or even killing a single person, but his actions indirectly assist in genocide. And he is fully aware of it.
+Lina Shields Uh, no, that's wrong on so many levels. Reinhard and Oberstein are guilty of a war crime through their inaction. Oberstein is, of course, the most clearly guilty, as he lied about the timetable of the attack to make sure it'd get carried out.
But Reinhard shares some of the guilt by ultimately waiting hours to make a decision. He at least fully considered letting those people die.
Letting someone kill an innocent while you have the strength to prevent the killing makes you an accomplice, simple as that. Even in the past, when this wasn't codified, letting an atrocity happen when you could have prevented it made you guilty in the eyes of others.
These weren't Reinhard's soldiers, who were able to fight back, and knew what they were getting into. These were people who had no ability to defend themselves, and who had no idea what was going to happen to them.
Basically, these people died no only because of one side's genocidal brutality, but also because the other side decided their lives weren't worth saving.
I find that it's frighteningly easy for people to shrug off such actions as 'for the greater good', and I find it unlikely you'd be so forgiving to Oberstein and Reinhard if they'd let all the people you knew die because they 'weren't worth the cost'.
Reinhard wasn't going to lose the war. By this point, everyone with sense could see it. In fact, aside from a few hurdles thrown in by Merkatz and Fahrenheit, they were winning one-sidedly. Yes, taking Geiersburg would have taken time and resources, but careful managing would have limited losses. The sacrificed millions of civilians to spare themselves a siege they ultimately would have won.
@@Ares99999 because your are at the Side of Reinhards View, what you didn't put into account that the enemy outnumbered Reinhard 100 - 1.
what reinhard have are Competent Generals.
what the TV shows is that Merkatz and Fahrenheit are the only one competent in the nobles sides.
when if you really look into it, they too have capable generals just being overshadowed by Incompetent Leaders.
and also remember half of Reinhart Troops are under Lichtenlade.
and thus if ever they prolong the war Lichtenlade could just Backstab them with ease
Obersteinの代わりにKircheisがいた場合、状況は異なっていただろう。
事態が悪化してた公算が大。
戦乱を収束させ平和を実現する。
これを本気でやろうとしたら後世の人間から後ろ指をさされるような話はどうしても出てきます。
南北朝の合一を成し遂げ日本史上最悪の騒乱を収めた足利義満。
江戸幕府を開いた後に豊臣家を滅ぼし徳川家支配を磐石のものにした徳川家康。
こうした人達の業績の功罪両面を我々はもっと学ぶべきです。
この時、もしラインハルトが200万の民を救う方を選択していたら、その後の展開はどうなったんだろう‥‥？
@草俊幸 そういうことですな。オーベルシュタインって基本謀略面は割と無能気味。
ここだけ見ると悪手だったかも知れない
しかし自由惑星同盟との戦争中でもあり
長々と権力争いを続ける事もできなかった
長引けば自由惑星同盟と貴族の両方を相手にしなければならかったし
戦力の大幅な低下を招いていたと思う
そもそもオーベルシュタインは民衆の命なんて誤差とは思わない。
支配者さえ安泰ならいいとも思わない。
戦乱はできる限り早期に犠牲少なく終息させ、安定した社会をもたらす事しか考えてない。
そして旧支配層の権威を完全に失墜させ、権力移行をスムーズに行わせるためには必要な手段だった。
@納豆せんべい さん いや、謀略の天才。
@miko33rd さん マジで1000万死んでたら、今後の政策に失点となっている。可能性が高い。
Oberstein did nothing wrong.
you Oberstein fans are a strange bunch
キルヒアイス、死ななかったらヤンの所に亡命してたかも・・・。ラインハルトを止められるのは宇宙広しと言えどヤンしかいないしな。
原作読んでたらそんな見解にはまずなりえない
Oberstain did nothing wrong
旧アニメの改悪の一つだったなここ。
oberstein did nothing wrong
軍務尚の言い分が妙に納得してしまう。
まだ総参謀長。
Kircheis was right. People give Oberstein way too much credit because of muh Machiavelli, but Reinhard's side was already beating the hell out of the nobles who were incompetent at every turn. He would have won either way without this needless bloodbath. In fact stopping the attacks and exposing it as Reinhard saving 2 million people from the evil Braunschweig would have been just as effective as a propaganda tool. The whole "shortening the war" angle seems contradictory either way, since Reinhard and his inner circle love war, and in the later seasons they yearn for battle constantly.
This scene really threw me over the edge against oberstein. Allowing all those people to die was entirely unnecessary, they had the war in the bag by that point. What really confused me is how Reinhardt did absolutely nothing to punish him. Very out of character. This scene still confuses me.
The Westerland massacre made the Lipstadt Alliance's morale deteriorated, which made Reinhard won the war quicker than it would be otherwise. Also, borrowing Oberstein's words, the number of casualty that the rest of the war had (without Westerland incident) would be greater than the population of Westerland massacre, and that's from Reinhard's side only.
Oberstein's point was that it'll cost more lives and resources to let the war rage on than this massacre that basically was a shortcut for their victory.
If you take Kircheis' side, you're effectively saying that the lives of Westerland's people weighed much more than all the soldiers (and potentially other civilians) that will inevitably die as a consequence of a prolonged war.
If you take Oberstein's side, you're effectively saying that it's okay to sacrifice the lives of innocent people (millions of them, including children) for the supposed greater good.
This is why even someone like Reinhard was very much conflicted on the matter. Arguably, Oberstein's method was more logical but Kircheis' vision is more morally correct. It was a golden opportunity that can only be grabbed by bloodstained hands.
It's because Reinhard essentially agreed with Oberstein and in the original books he did outright agree to it. The anime made him more conflicted and added Oberstein's trickery. I agree it's strange to see Reinhard not even reprimand Oberstein's deception in the anime, but I see it as Reinhard accepting the decision as he did actually agree with it deep down.
This was such a waste. After watching this, I expected there to be a schism in Reinhard's forces. This would've irreversibly broken his and Kircheis' friendship. Unlike what the shippers would say, their relationship probably wouldn't recover. Kircheis was actually becoming interesting as a character of his own instead of a tool for Reinhard, but then he was killed and yet became nothing more than a source of angst. It was tragic, but still a wasted opportunity. They never corrected this in the other OVAs, just made it worse.
The worst wasted opportunity, though, was the schism between Reinhard's forces! The entire reason behind Kircheis' confrontation was that some of the forces were gossiping that Reinhard let Westerland happen! This argument, and the eventual death, should've confirmed that in their minds! That's what I thought Season 4 would be about--now that Reinhard's won, the mistakes he made would come to bite him. They did for Yang. Instead, it was just shoved in with one random guy to give Reinhard an excuse to have sex with Hildegard (another character weakened in season 4). This schism, Phezzan (why did they just stop trying to manipulate Reinhard?), the Earth Cult (which suck and were easily the worst part of the story; just leave their role to Phezzan), the FPA (as if they would all just roll over like that), Reuental (the explanation for his rushed rebellion was extremely forced), the nobility (as if all of 'the bad nobles' would just disappear that easily), and Kircheis, had he survived, would combine to shake up the Empire as Iserlohn watched from the corner.
Instead, everything just rolled over and died pathetically just so Reinhard could get his romantic ending. This is why I thought the show declined after season 3. I really think that some of those things were supposed to happen, but the author got tired of writing the series. It ended pretty well, although I don't think things went well for either side after the story ended.
You could always write your own fanfiction that suits your own interpretation.
Pretty much, the series peaked at 86. I did like Reuenthal’s Rebellion but I rather what you suggested to have happened.
9.11
1つの植民星に二百万人。
贅沢な使い方と見るか、
効率の悪い田舎ととるか。
country roaaaaaaaaaaads
take me hoooooooooome
Get rekt nerds
オーベルシュタインの、説目ん、アメリカが、日本に核ミサイルを、落とした理由と、同じ駄と思意マシタ❤
Now ,2023, Putin doing the same thing in Ukraine
正しい間違っている以前に、他人の物の考えを理解する意思があるのか。自分の認識等、誰も聞いていない。他者の考えに関心がない他者が相手なら、御互い様か?。
例えば、オーベルシュタインの主張に対してどういった理解を示したか。誰も大層な道徳の話等聞いていない。他者の意見を知らずして、よくぞ自己中心的な道徳の観念があったものだ。
オーベルシュタインの主張は、支配者は人間と目的を共有しない、人間を管理する為の、人間ではない道で、人間に必要なシステムだと言う事を述べている。人間と言うものは自己中心的な物だが、他者にその廃物を押し付けておいて、道徳を持ち出して、
廃物を処理する人間に非難を浴びせる。しかも、その場に置いてさえ、他者に対しての理解をする時と場所で、他者を排除し、自分の認識しか認めない道徳の観念を持ち出すと来ている。その行いこそ、道徳の定義作用に反するのと違うのか。道徳とは、今行われているように、自己保全の為に、他者を遮る手段なのか。主張されている通りに定義された道徳による作用の様には、現実に産み出された作用の方は成っていない様に見受ける。だが、欺瞞が好きな者には、欺瞞された目的の為にはあらゆる手段を行使し、その目的の為だけに動くと言う習性がある。他者を騙し、約束を破り、人を道具としてしか見ず、幾らでも無礼を働く。何処に言葉の定義が保たれようか。そこまでして自己満足を現実に優先したいなら、多くの耳に届くよう、その様に宣言してから是非を問うべきだ。
Oberstein did nothing wrong.