To be fair, debutant balls I think would typically be at 17/18- but she went to college first, though her dad sent her to find a husband, if she had found one she wouldn’t have needed a ball lol
@@Johnny2Cellos I hate to be this person, but I think there is a second mistake. I'm pretty sure when Beatrice is dying and says "I see you", she was already in the ICU, not asking for the ICU.
@@terrishaw253 Yes, Bojack realizes near the end of his eulogy that his mom was reading the sign that said “ICU,” making his analysis of why she would have said “I see you” almost pointless
I think she is the perfect example of a bad person being giving a backstory to explain their actions, but still not being redeemed or forgiven for them
Yeah, a lot of writers and producers are afraid to do this because the critics will "yOu cOndoNing tHeSe aCTions and RedEeming tHis bAd gUy" them. Remember Downfall (2004)? That is a film about probably the most infamous person of the 20th century and even he can be humanized, given a backstory and his positive traits can be looked upon. Are we condoning what he did? Are we apologizing on his behalf and redeeming him? Hell no. The villain can have layers too and remain the villain.
@@laurocoman You're saying writers are afraid to give positive traits out of fear of being accused of condoning the bad guy as opposed to BH's writers (who btw don't really explicitly condemn her as a "villain" either).. but ppl are still incapable of calling her a good or just well-written character without mentioning that she's a shitty person or that they don't condone her actions. I hope this made sense, I just don't get the distinction you seem to see between the writing here and the reception of such a character, as opposed to usual
that scene where Bojack threw out Beatrice's baby doll because he was jealous of it was absolutely brutal. it seems ridiculous that someone could be jealous of a doll, but the realization that your abusers can be caring towards other beings (friends, pets, etc.) can destroy a person and make them do rash and selfish things.
i felt bad for her after finding out it was a traumatic event , i also can't exactly fault bojack for it . she treated a doll better than she ever did him even if she was out of it , and he was mad at her for it and he honestly had a right to be .
It bothers me too because there's a bias. Like, her childhood trauma is definitely something to sympathize with and feel bad about, his childhood trauma is definitely something to sympathize with and feel bad about, but also the fact that when he acts out it's "unfair" but no one says that to her? like why is her acting out a childhood trauma "well, she just does that because of trauma" but when he does it's "don't be childish"? If her actions are to be excused (despite her being an adult for longer and having more time and him not having been directly her abuser, plus Hollyhock being unfairly and seriously hurt) then why aren't his (when he was directly abused by her and is her son, therefore having had less time and been directly under her guidance, plus he was trying to build a better situation)? like I get that her mind deteriorates by the end but it's not like this was brought up before then nor does it erase his pain. Alot of people with abusive parents are told to just "be better" and "get over it" because their parents "love and need" them rather than to care for their own mental health. If you traumatized someone they should not be the one responsible for your wellbeing, doesn't mean you shouldn't get care just that it should be with the appropriate people like therapists and doctors. it doesn't always go that way of course but I really think if someone's gonna make a trauma excuse that it should consider more than just the abuser and should take into context the entire situation fairly, not dump it onto their victim for having their own trauma-based issues.
@@TGOArchive it sounds really tasty but I can’t imagine the effect it has on someone’s stomach if they eat it as often as Beatrice and Honey probably did
In one episode in season four she said something along the line of “where’s Corbin”, even years later and her dementia ridden brain she still thinks about the relationship they would have had. Even after she had bojack she had yelled at butterscotch that Corbin would have been kind to her. An interesting fact is that they used to keep goats with race horses to keep them calm.
I loathe older Beatrice, but i mourn for young Beatrice. She was a witty, progressive, intelligent young woman with so much potential to do something great with her life. The worst part is she had no idea of what kind of miserable person she would devolve into, and by the time she realized it was already to late. This once promising young woman would later die scared, confused and unfulfilled.
Nah. I think that even with the perfect life, she still will find something to feel dissatisfaid. Remember, she promise never to love someone or something as her mother loved her son. So, perfect husband and children doesnt change the damage done.
It’s heartbreaking to realize all of this could’ve been prevented. She was well into her 20s without any sign of generational trauma. Then she met the wrong man, fell in lust, and got pregnant with his child. They were both dreamers and I truly believe that if they hadn’t met each other they would’ve turned out just fine. :(
This show is fucking wild because one second you’re laughing at the background jokes with animals doing human things, and then it hits you with stuff like this.
literally just finished free churro last night and 'all i had was you' sticks with me still because i had an abusive parent who i cut off who was the only adult i had in my life to treat me right and she only cut off my opportunities to get help sooner and tried to manipulate me long after she abandoned me . the amount of shit she put me through scarred me for a long time and yet i put her at such a high pedestal even after i was set up to be adopted by an entirely different family . shit stings .
I read in an interview with the creators once that that’s why they use animal characters with funny silly settings, it offsets and helps deliver the darker serious parts with full impact.
It just hit me. Horses are known for carrying heavy weight. The Horseman/Sugarman family carry the immense weight of generational trauma! It's a far darker animal pun.
I’ve said this before in a different video and still find it interesting: What I found funny/interesting/sad about Beatrice’s story is how they subverted one of the biggest love story tropes. She probably would be happy if she married Corbin, the arranged marriage, while she suffered by following her heart. That’s what’s interesting
While it is a trope to have the arranged marriages not work out, sometimes they worked out fine- being young enough to "grow" together, plus a mindset that values working on a relationship more than just giving up on it right away, and sometimes the couple is coincidentally compatible. And I think Beatrice was being a rebel (against her father) more so than following her heart- they barely knew each other, but she wasn't enough of a rebel (and was just really young and inexperienced) to not allow herself to fall into a marriage just because of a pregnancy caused by a one night stand.
@@arielcausey909 it’s kind telling that after she marries Butterscotch she becomes more conservative and complains about not being wealthy/not being able to afford a nanny or maid Although there’s no way to tell if her life would’ve been 100% better with Corbin. She still had a shit ton of trauma that she didn’t have the resources to work through (I don’t think therapy was super common in the 60s, and Bea may have refused it due to internalizing to not be emotional/vulnerable) . I think if she did marry Corbin and had kids there’s still a chance she would’ve been emotionally distant from her child/may have still been an alcoholic. She might have even resented that she was still under her dad’s thumb and wished she ran off with Butterscotch
@@sketchyjulia I agree, there’s no guarantee that she would have been happy or happier with Corbin. It’s sad because right before she met Butterscotch, she seemed to have some youthful optimism, intelligence, and at least a fighting spirit, but after settling down with Butterscotch, she gave herself up to bitterness and dug herself in to what was taught to her growing up
@@sketchyjulia it might've been possible . she realized that they had some similarities in terms of how their interests aren't cared for by their parents but there is a stark lack of chemistry between them compared to her and butterscotch but then again , that relationship brought out the worst in them incidentally
@@randompromises1038 Ironically, that’s how it is a lot of times- you have no sparks with the ones who might treat you the best, and the most chemistry with those who end up driving you up the wall (and not in a good way lol)
Isn't the entire dynamic amazing? The morally ambiguous scenes that surround her character is astounding. Is Bojack justified in sending her to that hellish nursing home or throwing her doll over his deck? The answer, as it almost always is in BH, is yes and no. It is cruel and unusual punishment to torture/degrade a mentally crippled, broken old woman -- but the justification behind it is entirely there. Beatrice allows for so much amazing, complex drama to unfold in the show.
Beatrice's back story proves that the characters in a show or animation aren't just one note tropes ( In some cases if the writing is good of if the show calls for it). Characters are people that exist in their own world and we as people are complex and three-dimensional yet we choose to display something that appears to be a one note trait of who we are.
@@americanodude I think honesty the most heartbreaking part about Bojack's actions towards his mother is that even though we know that obviously her methods were not right in the end she was just trying to protect Bojack in her own twisted way, and he'll never know that because she's gone and the relationship will never be redeemed.
Even though she’s a terrible person, she’s my favorite character. The writing the show did with her is amazing. So thankful to see someone understand her more than blind hate
@@rosenrot234 And some for Beatrices dad. But then since you learn to empathize with Beatrice after hating her you start to think, "Maybe he too had a tough past"
I always thought the line her father says when he burns the doll, "your disease has infected everything", had a deeper meaning. She tells her son "You're BoJack Horseman, and there's no cure for that". I think at some point Beatrice saw herself as broken, and that she had infected her son with her own trauma, breaking him forever too, just like her doll as a child.
I mean, considering the time period as well as the fact that scarlet fever is notoriously contagious, Beatrice’s father probably thought he was doing the right thing
@@claudiatarnai6199 yes you’re definitely right, but her father was also very uncaring of Beatrice’s emotions and the trauma she was dealing with from losing those closest to her. that doll was the last thing she truly cared about at that age, and the way her father basically shrugged it off and was very cold her (not even just with that but in general) was what hurt her so much. for a kid so young like she was that doll was basically her coping mechanism, because her father failed her and her mother so much, and he couldn’t care less about how she felt watching it burned to nothing. i can understand why she was upset, i get what you’re saying but even aside from him thinking it was right, he was not a very loving father to her.
Still sad that her mom says to not love someone as much as she loved Cracker Jack. Finding out a parent clearly loves another sibling more than you has to just suck
@@sketchyjulia Maybe I’m thinking too much in to this right now, but it makes me wonder now had BJ been a girl, would she have treated “her” any better, as she may have been jealous/resentful of the male gender- and maybe “doll” (and her childhood baby doll) was presumed to be female, which is why she might have treated it better(as she would sympathize more and maybe want to give another female a better chance than she had growing up in a misogynistic environment- heck, maybe why she’d be so insistent on Henrietta putting Hollyhock up for adoption and getting her away from Butterscotch, Henrietta did tell her it was a girl when she showed her the ultrasound)- but again, I’m probably overthinking it lol
@@arielcausey909 i think hollyhock is a good example of how beatrice would have treated a daughter. she was always very kind to hollyhock, unlike bokack, but she still enforced her ideas of beauty onto hollyhock by drugging her
@@adrianjames9038 Oh, that’s probably right- but she was already in the midst of her dementia and her mind stuck somewhere in the past, maybe she would have been better and tried to change her treatment of girls while she was still young and not as set in her ways yet, but maybe not
At 11:00 I love the detail of her delayed response to how the ice cream tastes. To me I always saw it as her not actually knowing what it tasted like bc all her life she had to subscribe to the gender norms. She couldn’t eat ice cream so she doesn’t know what it tastes like.
Same. I like how the hesitation comes and her facial expression lookes uncomfortable. I figured she knew he was lying cause she only ate lemon and sugar at the lakehouse.
I thought her pause was her knowing it was all a lie but going along with it anyways even if it didn't seem right. I didn't think about the fact that she probably never had ice cream. It's even more sad. That scene has stuck with me far too much. I understand why Bojack left her in that crappy nursing home, but I hate that he did it.
Except she had had ice cream before! In Season 4, Ep 2 - The Old Sugarman Place. Her and her mother go out and she asks if she can have a Freezy Pop and her mom says she can have whatever she wants. That probably is the only time she had it though so she probably doesn’t remember it
what i hate about bojack horseman’s fans is that they always try to explain bojack’s bad actions (penny, sarah lynn, his toxic behaviour towards pc, todd, diane, herb and approximately everyone) by his childhood but will never do the same for beatrice (or even diane)
The misogyny in this fandom is 🤮 I understand people’s hatred of Beatrice since she’s pretty awful but people were so quick to jump on Diane for the smallest mistakes. Plus there are even people who blame penny for “leading Bojack on”. Repeat after me: “being the legal age of consent does not equal emotional maturity/experience. And certainly not when someone well into adulthood is involved.”
It's perfectly understandable that bojack is talked about more because...the show is about him. He has the most screentime, the most detailed monologues and conflicts. Saying it's because of misogyny is just short sighted.
She's genuinely one of my favorite characters, my mom acts just like her and she had a very traumatic story my grandfather was extremely abusive and sexist, this show genuinely made me understand her better. Forever grateful.
@@jaydee6574 No excuse, but it just reflects a cynical cycle that happens. Her parents broke her and abused her and she does the same and sometimes the kid keep some of those tendencies. It's hard to break such a toxic cycle
He didn't really seem like he was abused, he just seems like he was an irresponsible man who didn't use protection and didn't want to face up to the consequences of his actions. He was too proud to do what was best for his family from the start, and also resentful that Beatrice didn't take care of his irresponsibility for him so he could write his novel instead of doing right by the family he is responsible for creating. He just seems like an irresponsible typical self centred man (not saying all men are like this but Butterscotch certainly fits this category).
It's heartbreaking that the last piece of advice Honey was coherent enough to give to protect her child only further pushed Beatrice down the rabbit hole.
I think it's worth noting that a hidden side to abuse is that a lot of abusers were abused themselves. As it's kind of a double-edged sword, I want to make clear that I'm not sympathizing with abusers. I'm saying bad people have complicated backstories in real life, but are still bad. You can, in fact, have both at the same time. With literal dictators having horrible backstories, it's probably the norm. I guess I'm trying to say that Beatrice's story is, unfortunately, not as special as one might think.
my mom was never abused by her parents but by other people and never believed in therapy . i learned a lot about her terrible past but i also rightfully told her that she had no right to ruin my life because hers was ruined and she refused to get help for it .
that’s one of the themes the show focuses heavily on, especially with bojack. He grew up in a broken home, and he went on to hurt so many more people throughout the course of the show. Part of his messed up philosophy is that his actions are justified because of his bad home life, so he never takes any accountability and ends up ruining so many great relationships.
This show managed to do what very few can: make the audience sympathize with a bad person without forgiving their actions. Villains don't all need redemption arcs for us to like them, sometimes you just need to make us understand WHY they're despicable, without pretending they AREN'T, in fact, despicable.
Hey did anyone notice that Harper (Bojacks imaginary daughter with Charlotte) is: A) named after Harpers Landing B) the same color coat, mane and white star as his mother as a child It’s so weird seeing Bojack being so nice to his child, who looks SO MUCH like his mother. I mean I’m happy that in this fantasy of his alternate life, he isn’t another link in the chain of generational abuse. Part of me thinks that he was being a good father to Harper because he thought “maybe this is how Bea would’ve been if she wasn’t a terrible person”- or maybe, even out of spite. Like, of course it would be a “Bojack thing” to totally be biased towards his child who is the spitting image of Bea as a kid, but out of “good natured spite” he would actually treat her much better than Bea treated him as a kid, kind of like an “Fuck You” to his mom.
I think it's more an unconcious yearning to have that close relationship if not directly with his mother, than with some similar represention of her. A fuck you attitude usually results in a toxic relationship
I like how long they waited to show us her backstory. They let us have this specific view of her for multiple seasons and even when her storyline with Hollyhock started, we didn't get any insight until the very end and we were left with all this hindsight and its a really good way to show how people stories are always bigger than what we see of them. She didn't become less of a terrible person but she definitely became more personable
Beatrice is honestly probably my favorite character. She was a horrible mother and person and her backstory doesn’t excuse that, but damn she went through so much trauma before she was even an adult, all of which was out of her control/ was factored by the sexist time period she grew up in. Many other women at that time likely went through similar experiences like Honey and Beatrice
This story sums up generational trauma so well. We see exactly how Beatrice was molded, and therefore how Bojack was cast. A vicious cycle that forged such a powerful picture of how everyone could benefit from a little therapy.
It's so heartbreaking that Beatrice's only happy moment since many years of hardship happened during her final days, at a deplorable nursing home room with Bojack.
There is so much dramatic irony in that scene where BoJack drops Beatrice off at the nursing home, it could almost fill a video on its own. My read on it is that she was buying in to the whole Michigan story until BoJack tells her she's eating ice cream. This snaps her back into reality for a moment, as she knows she would have actually been eating sugar on a lemon, a detail which is known to the audience, but not to BoJack. She grits her teeth and resigns herself to her hopeless situation. Notice how her entire demeanor changes as she tells BoJack the ice cream is delicious. There's no way in hell she's going to allow him to think he's finally won the war in abandoning her once and for all in that desolate nursing home. BoJack leaves, never knowing his final attempt at a modicum of empathy towards his toxic mother was a failure. He had good intentions, but once again ends up hurting someone even more because, well, he comes by it honestly. He's BoJack Horseman and there's no cure for that. Seriously, I've never seen another show that does nuance like BoJack Horseman, but those five seconds of television left my jaw on the floor.
@@TheWinstonSlip I think she probably didn't eat ice cream, because of the stuff that was ingrained into her, but I don't think the ice cream really snapped her out of it or that she didn't want to let Bojack win. I think she just didn't know what ice cream tasted like, So she couldn't really figure out a word to use, Like she was trying to search for a memory that wasn't there.
@@TheWinstonSlip she had a lick of the popsicle she got before Honey started singing with Eddie the fly. Probably doesn't remember it because of what happened after
The idea of “victim becomes abuser” is so horrifying to me because Me and my boyfriend do want to have kids but we both grew up with parents who were abusive in different ways (emotionally unavailable mom and mentally and physically abusive dad for me) and though I feel like we would be incredible parents due to not wanting to be like our parents I can’t shake the fear that we’ll be exactly like our parents and is horrifying
I think as long as you have worked through your trauma to make sure you don't act out with other people (physically ir emotionally) from the effects of the abuse you experienced, then you can probably be decent parents. Don't repeat their mistakes, and also don't overcorrect (e.g. lack of setting safe boundaries and healthy non physically abusive discipline for crossing these healthy boundaries, or letting them go too far in the other direction of what you experienced, such as being overly supportive and trying to fix any problems for them to the point they never learn how to deal with any tough life circumstances themselves).
I always thought it was interesting that Beatrice seemingly recognized Hollyhock as the baby she put up for adoption. Saying that Hollyhock “looks just like ‘him’” (Butterscotch) and that she “took the her away”after Bojack tells her Hollyhock is gone.
It also feels like bojack did more damage than Beatrice did,.. he hurt every person who went to horsing around for comfort, he almost had sex with a highschool student, he choked his co star, and he left Diane that final voicemail Beatrice as awful as she is, and how it isn't excused, it's so much easier to empathize with her. That's just my opinion tho, I might be wrong
It just now dawned on me that she didn't even want to RISK loving Bojack the way Honey loved Crackerjack. So when she had a SON and was put in the literal EXACT SAME position as Honey, she chose to detest him... heartbreaking.
I think that Beatrice shows a lot of who she could have been had her situation been better through her dementia. The part where she calls Horsin' Around a "comfort" comes to mind mainly, bc she would have never said that about the show when she was in her right mind. Same with her care towards the baby doll, which she never gave young Bojack. I think those few moments of kindness she shows when she lost the grip on the character she put up her entire life show she could have been a loving mother and a good person if her trauma (mainly her mother's words to her) hadn't ruined her, which makes her character all the more tragic
I’d love to see an unnecessarily deep dive into the logic of the BH universe. Like rounding up any and all references to the implications of being in an animal populated world (underwater civilizations, imagery of horseshoes despite hooves not existing, food animals, a peninsula populated entirely with labradors..) and seeing if there’s some grand unifying theory that emerges.
Normal people with a time machine: Cool, i'll see my mom when she was a kid Me with a time machine: NO HONEY, DON'T MAKE YOUR OLDER SON GO TO THE US ARMY
I mean I would probably at least say for her to seek therapy or grief counselling (whatever little of it existed back then) instead of get a labotomy, or maybe tell Beatrice to make sure Butterscotch uses protection
“make” ?? I highly doubt with how much she loved her son she wanted him in the army. He was probably drafted or chose to join because of all of the pro war propaganda at the time
Alright another Bojack vid, i swear Johnny out of all the Bojack Horseman vids i've watched yours are the greatest no one does a Bojack video like you do!!!
I struggle with bi-polar depression and anxiety as a result to the abuse I went through as a teenager. Bojack horseman literally broke me. I was up for 3 days on an elongated existential crisis. The realization that sometimes people are cruel and disgusting hit me so hard. But it inspired me to continue doing what I love and that’s helping people and being there for others unlike people were for me.
I’ve been WAITING for this. Tbh she’s my favorite character because of how much work was clearly placed in her. She deserves more love... from her parents and the world and butterscotch. Lol she did some garbage stuff and shows her “tough love” in the worse ways. She gets my appreciation and I’m also glad she’s not my mother 😓. She’s not justifiable (look at other people like Cinderella who also had an abusive background but was still kind and empathetic and showed it in healthy ways) but, she’s very interesting
Great timeline! Beatrice is a horrible person but a great character, and Time's Arrow is probably my favorite episode - its use of storytelling techniques is superlative.
I felt so sorry for Beatrice I just wish she would have grown up a happy life with a mother that loves her without being lobotomized and her father would have supported his wife and help do the grieving process instead of giving its gender norms
Hey Johnny. Love the videos as always! I did notice something in the video though. When you said Beatrice was 18 at her debutante ball in 1963, it would've put her birth year at 1945. Because she just got back with her Bachelors, I think she was a little older than that. It was just something that made me scratch my head a little. Keep up the good work. Your BoJack videos are the best to watch!
@@Johnny2Cellos not your fault that instead of a bachelor Beatrice returned with a Bachelors degree smh 😤 /j Also Clemilia said “better late than never” which supports that Bea had hers considerably late for a socialite
She is such an interesting character its amazing. You said it best, getting to know more her story, her actions arent justified but we cant help but have some pity for her, amazing video love your content man
I just realized something. Beatrice has a white diamond mark on her forehead Bojack, her son, has a white diamond mark on his forehead Butterscotch does not have a white diamond mark on his forehead Hollyhock, who is related to Butterscotch but not Beatrice, still has the diamond mark on her forehead.
I Like beatrice as an character, and i think that she's a great example of a good character that started doing bad things beacuse of her childhood/environment
I think the tone of how characters talk in this should be spoken about it’s not just what’s being said, it’s how it’s been said a lot of it and why the show is so successful
Beatrice is easily one of the most interesting, complex characters in the show to me. When we first see Beatrice (and for the majority of the show), we feel hardly anything but disdain for her, given how she raised BoJack and treats him in the present day. While her actions are never excused, the show makes it so that we can empathize with her by presenting us with both the beginning and end of her life; in the former, we see the abuse and familial trauma she endured, and in the latter, we see a woman whose very mind is deteriorating, yet manages for one of the only times in the show to connect with BoJack. Her character is one of the main reasons I love episodes that focus on the history of the Sugarman family
Bojack asking Beatrice if she could taste the ice cream in her last scene in the series is genuinely one of the most powerful things I've ever seen in my life. I choke up every time I hear it and the empty, wistful response afterwards.
she falters when answering him. obviously a callback to her childhood, where she wasn’t permitted to have sweets, likely dragging those rules into her adulthood, not permitting herself to have sweets. it’s upsetting, and yet one of my favourite things about the tv show.
What's really sad about Beatrice's story is how she was as a young woman. She was witty, snappy, intelligent, and funny, but all that was lost because of her horrible father and a poor choice in husband.
11:00 Has to be the most hearbreaking moment for me, what she did was an act of love for bojack, as small as it may seem, it's the only one we see in the entire series, she did that for him, she was pulled out of her fantasy because she never knew what ice cream tasted like but she didn't want to ruin that moment between bojack and her; she knew bojack would never know that and still played along.
Knowing Bojack’s story with Beatrice, the power dynamic in their abusive relationship, and the fact that Bojack yelled out “I have the power now!” after his “f you mom!” speech, it really makes the question “do you enjoy having power over women?” a little more haunting.
something ive always wondered is if hollyhock ever reunited with Henrietta- bc although she DID agree to Beatrice that she would give up the baby its obvious that she wanted to be a caring mother. something I also wish that they did was that when they find out that her and bojack are half-siblings that bojack takes hollyhock to butterscotch's grave
@@Theartisticyoshi At the end of Season 4 episode 12, Hollyhock calls Bojack from the airport where she’s waiting to fly to Minneapolis to visit Henrietta
She is the perfect example of someone who you can't forgive but when you know why she is the way she is you feel sorry for her. She lived through hell and made it a mission to make everyone else's just as bad yet it hurts me deeply when she fakes what she thinks ice cream tastes like. I do think it would have been nice if he had gotten her some ice cream for her final moments its not like him to do so, he just probably felt bad that she was going and there would be no real release fro the trauma and stress she caused him.
Watching times arrow really made me cry and hit literary close to home cause it reminded me of my grandfather who just as Beatrice was a bad person with a past that explains but not excuses it. His father, a cheerful optimistic Russian soldier died in WW2 and his younger brother passed away the same year at the age of only 2. He was the youngest of the three brothers and his moms favorite, being the only one who had his fathers eyes. She became literary insane thinking her baby is crying somewhere or telling my grandfather and his brother their dad called. He and his older brother moved to their aunt who had high expectations and wasn't holding back with mental abuse which his older brother let out on him in form of physical abuse. It went so far that grandpa started working at age 11 to not be at home. He married his best friends sister in law and despite his unwillingness had a child with her, because for him she was as he said "the one or no one". He let dad know that he didn't really wanted him and had abnormal expectations which my dad never lived up to by being talented in artistic ways and not athletic. He still is that way and really hated not doing something himself or relying on others. He called my dad out for calling a plumber or for getting me a tutor. He doesn't believe it's the right way and...his way became outdated and let's just say you can't pull off that stuff today. Grandma is the only reason we see him to be honest and we are planning to bring her to live with us since grandpa is yelling at her for forgetting stuff despite her dementia. He never was shown love and when it was shown it was genuine but for a large price like with grandma and her wish for a child or got taken away in a brutal way like his parents. He does all himself and calls everyone weak who reaches out for help. Even when my parents sent me to therapy, cause it I should fix myself. Where did it get him? Not far I wanted to bring this up as another example of a tragic childhood being forged in the 1940s creating a miserable adult whose resentment for all what happened bled through many generations. My dad is ashamed to ask for help and I don't know how far gone I am but my parents often got called to talk with my teacher due to my avoidance to work with others on group projects.
7:18 - OMG I forgot about this line! Devastating after "The Old Sugarman Place." :'-( And I've also only just now made the connection with "It's not Ibsen" and Butterscotch complaining about her reaction to A Doll's House.
I didn't even pick up on the significance of the doll until you pointed it out. It just speaks to how densely written the show is that you can still pick up on new details even after you've seen the show 3 or 4 times.
You know what drives a stake into my heart? The reason Beatrice struggles to describe the taste of ice cream is most likely because she never got to taste it. And i cant imagine she would even when shes older because of how drived into her head the words of her dad was.
The only time the show did something to address that “ hey they are Anthropomorphic horses” was during Beatrice’s ball where her debut was just a equestrian Cory where she made jumps over those pole fence things you see in equestrian sports. The only time they do something horse related
A lot of people who hated Beatrice switched from hating Beatrice to hating Joseph after they learned her backstory, which is funny, because a lot of people who hated BoJack switched to hating Beatrice when they learned HIS backstory. A lot of people seem to struggle with the concept that most people aren't exactly 'evil', per se, or at least, not PURE evil. Just because the show didn't focus on Joseph's childhood and/or backstory doesn't mean that it wasn't bad or didn't impact him in some important way. For as much as he tries to shun all emotions, there are numerous times where he clearly shows he isn't above them himself. There are numerous times where he either tries to briefly help Honey and Beatrice when they are upset, but for whatever reason, he quickly removes himself from the situation, because he seems to have had it drilled firmly into his head either by society or by his OWN parents that he has to always act and behave a certain way. He is a decent person deep down and cares for his family, but the expectations he sets for himself and others don't allow him to ever really express that. He did absolutely horrible things under the guise of trying to help his family, but everything he did only made matters worse. Joseph needed Honey, and Honey needed Crackerjack. Without the latter two, the only person Beatrice had in her life to help her was the person least capable of actually providing any help, and it eventually ended up ruining her.
I’d love to see a dive into PCs episode where it flashes back to her younger self or Diane and PB’s divorce where fiancé tries to convince herself she’s ok and it didn’t break her heart because that episode made me Cry so Much
Whoops! I said that at her Debutant Ball in 1963 that Beatrice was 18 years old but she was actually 25! Silly mistake, mybad!
To be fair, debutant balls I think would typically be at 17/18- but she went to college first, though her dad sent her to find a husband, if she had found one she wouldn’t have needed a ball lol
This was what my brain did 🤦♂️ forgot it came after she went to college
@@Johnny2Cellos I hate to be this person, but I think there is a second mistake. I'm pretty sure when Beatrice is dying and says "I see you", she was already in the ICU, not asking for the ICU.
@@terrishaw253 Yes, Bojack realizes near the end of his eulogy that his mom was reading the sign that said “ICU,” making his analysis of why she would have said “I see you” almost pointless
I mean the ICU thing is pretty inconsequential
I think she is the perfect example of a bad person being giving a backstory to explain their actions, but still not being redeemed or forgiven for them
Bojack can't forgive her on that basis, because he has barely any idea what her life was like.
Yeah, a lot of writers and producers are afraid to do this because the critics will "yOu cOndoNing tHeSe aCTions and RedEeming tHis bAd gUy" them. Remember Downfall (2004)? That is a film about probably the most infamous person of the 20th century and even he can be humanized, given a backstory and his positive traits can be looked upon. Are we condoning what he did? Are we apologizing on his behalf and redeeming him? Hell no. The villain can have layers too and remain the villain.
@@laurocoman You're saying writers are afraid to give positive traits out of fear of being accused of condoning the bad guy as opposed to BH's writers (who btw don't really explicitly condemn her as a "villain" either).. but ppl are still incapable of calling her a good or just well-written character without mentioning that she's a shitty person or that they don't condone her actions. I hope this made sense, I just don't get the distinction you seem to see between the writing here and the reception of such a character, as opposed to usual
@@soniaiboyako4023 you, sir, make a good point. The audience also has a big role in sanitizing fiction.
Same thing with bojack. He did have a fucked up backstory, but it still doesn't make it okay that he is in fact a bad person.
that scene where Bojack threw out Beatrice's baby doll because he was jealous of it was absolutely brutal. it seems ridiculous that someone could be jealous of a doll, but the realization that your abusers can be caring towards other beings (friends, pets, etc.) can destroy a person and make them do rash and selfish things.
Like "you can be like this anytime you want"
Plus it probably made her relive her trauma of her baby doll being burned
@@sketchyjulia yeah I was absolutely floored when I saw that happen. I felt bad for her.
i felt bad for her after finding out it was a traumatic event , i also can't exactly fault bojack for it . she treated a doll better than she ever did him even if she was out of it , and he was mad at her for it and he honestly had a right to be .
It bothers me too because there's a bias. Like, her childhood trauma is definitely something to sympathize with and feel bad about, his childhood trauma is definitely something to sympathize with and feel bad about, but also the fact that when he acts out it's "unfair" but no one says that to her? like why is her acting out a childhood trauma "well, she just does that because of trauma" but when he does it's "don't be childish"? If her actions are to be excused (despite her being an adult for longer and having more time and him not having been directly her abuser, plus Hollyhock being unfairly and seriously hurt) then why aren't his (when he was directly abused by her and is her son, therefore having had less time and been directly under her guidance, plus he was trying to build a better situation)? like I get that her mind deteriorates by the end but it's not like this was brought up before then nor does it erase his pain. Alot of people with abusive parents are told to just "be better" and "get over it" because their parents "love and need" them rather than to care for their own mental health. If you traumatized someone they should not be the one responsible for your wellbeing, doesn't mean you shouldn't get care just that it should be with the appropriate people like therapists and doctors. it doesn't always go that way of course but I really think if someone's gonna make a trauma excuse that it should consider more than just the abuser and should take into context the entire situation fairly, not dump it onto their victim for having their own trauma-based issues.
Beatrice turned out just like sugar-topped lemon slices. Started off sweet only to become increasingly sour.
That’s some next level analysis!
@@TGOArchive it sounds really tasty but I can’t imagine the effect it has on someone’s stomach if they eat it as often as Beatrice and Honey probably did
@@alyssapinon9670 it’s really bad for your teeth
Damn
@@TGOArchive is it really? It actually sounds really good but like lowkey scared it’ll be really really sour
In one episode in season four she said something along the line of “where’s Corbin”, even years later and her dementia ridden brain she still thinks about the relationship they would have had. Even after she had bojack she had yelled at butterscotch that Corbin would have been kind to her. An interesting fact is that they used to keep goats with race horses to keep them calm.
I didn’t know that fact about goats and horses, probably why Bojack’s sober companion in season 6 was a goat, too
Aw, I love that fact about the goats and horses.
*Butterscotch, not crackerjack
@@arielcausey909 wait what
Isn't his therapist a horse not a goat
@@solus952 The sober companion that went with him to the party in the episode Surprise was a goat named Eduardo
I loathe older Beatrice, but i mourn for young Beatrice. She was a witty, progressive, intelligent young woman with so much potential to do something great with her life. The worst part is she had no idea of what kind of miserable person she would devolve into, and by the time she realized it was already to late. This once promising young woman would later die scared, confused and unfulfilled.
Thats how I would feel when thinking of her potential..it's utterly heartbreaking. She was a lovely young girl with so much in her :(
butterscotch not wearing a rubber doomed them all
Nah. I think that even with the perfect life, she still will find something to feel dissatisfaid. Remember, she promise never to love someone or something as her mother loved her son. So, perfect husband and children doesnt change the damage done.
My worst fear after growing up in an abusive household is being one of them or failing at life entirely
It’s heartbreaking to realize all of this could’ve been prevented. She was well into her 20s without any sign of generational trauma. Then she met the wrong man, fell in lust, and got pregnant with his child. They were both dreamers and I truly believe that if they hadn’t met each other they would’ve turned out just fine. :(
This show is fucking wild because one second you’re laughing at the background jokes with animals doing human things, and then it hits you with stuff like this.
literally just finished free churro last night and 'all i had was you' sticks with me still because i had an abusive parent who i cut off who was the only adult i had in my life to treat me right and she only cut off my opportunities to get help sooner and tried to manipulate me long after she abandoned me . the amount of shit she put me through scarred me for a long time and yet i put her at such a high pedestal even after i was set up to be adopted by an entirely different family . shit stings .
I read in an interview with the creators once that that’s why they use animal characters with funny silly settings, it offsets and helps deliver the darker serious parts with full impact.
This show definitely helped me with my struggles with depression, anxiety and suicidal thoughts especially The View From Halfway Down
@@bethanyoneal5789 Same here! I especially loved the ending and the message about not giving up on hope (that’s how I see it)
It just hit me. Horses are known for carrying heavy weight. The Horseman/Sugarman family carry the immense weight of generational trauma! It's a far darker animal pun.
I’ve said this before in a different video and still find it interesting:
What I found funny/interesting/sad about Beatrice’s story is how they subverted one of the biggest love story tropes. She probably would be happy if she married Corbin, the arranged marriage, while she suffered by following her heart. That’s what’s interesting
While it is a trope to have the arranged marriages not work out, sometimes they worked out fine- being young enough to "grow" together, plus a mindset that values working on a relationship more than just giving up on it right away, and sometimes the couple is coincidentally compatible. And I think Beatrice was being a rebel (against her father) more so than following her heart- they barely knew each other, but she wasn't enough of a rebel (and was just really young and inexperienced) to not allow herself to fall into a marriage just because of a pregnancy caused by a one night stand.
@@arielcausey909 it’s kind telling that after she marries Butterscotch she becomes more conservative and complains about not being wealthy/not being able to afford a nanny or maid
Although there’s no way to tell if her life would’ve been 100% better with Corbin. She still had a shit ton of trauma that she didn’t have the resources to work through (I don’t think therapy was super common in the 60s, and Bea may have refused it due to internalizing to not be emotional/vulnerable) . I think if she did marry Corbin and had kids there’s still a chance she would’ve been emotionally distant from her child/may have still been an alcoholic. She might have even resented that she was still under her dad’s thumb and wished she ran off with Butterscotch
@@sketchyjulia I agree, there’s no guarantee that she would have been happy or happier with Corbin. It’s sad because right before she met Butterscotch, she seemed to have some youthful optimism, intelligence, and at least a fighting spirit, but after settling down with Butterscotch, she gave herself up to bitterness and dug herself in to what was taught to her growing up
@@sketchyjulia it might've been possible . she realized that they had some similarities in terms of how their interests aren't cared for by their parents but there is a stark lack of chemistry between them compared to her and butterscotch but then again , that relationship brought out the worst in them incidentally
@@randompromises1038 Ironically, that’s how it is a lot of times- you have no sparks with the ones who might treat you the best, and the most chemistry with those who end up driving you up the wall (and not in a good way lol)
Best example of bad person, fantastic character.
Absolutely. As a character she's fascinating and wonderful. As a person? I hate her guts.
Isn't the entire dynamic amazing? The morally ambiguous scenes that surround her character is astounding. Is Bojack justified in sending her to that hellish nursing home or throwing her doll over his deck? The answer, as it almost always is in BH, is yes and no. It is cruel and unusual punishment to torture/degrade a mentally crippled, broken old woman -- but the justification behind it is entirely there. Beatrice allows for so much amazing, complex drama to unfold in the show.
Beatrice's back story proves that the characters in a show or animation aren't just one note tropes ( In some cases if the writing is good of if the show calls for it). Characters are people that exist in their own world and we as people are complex and three-dimensional yet we choose to display something that appears to be a one note trait of who we are.
@@americanodude I think honesty the most heartbreaking part about Bojack's actions towards his mother is that even though we know that obviously her methods were not right in the end she was just trying to protect Bojack in her own twisted way, and he'll never know that because she's gone and the relationship will never be redeemed.
Not bad just conflicted
Even though she’s a terrible person, she’s my favorite character. The writing the show did with her is amazing. So thankful to see someone understand her more than blind hate
All my blind hate goes to Bojacks dad instead of Beatrice.
Wendie Malick does not get the praise she deserves for her voicing of Beatrice.
@@rosenrot234 I hate him too, but we don't see his backstory, either, sadly.
@@rosenrot234 And some for Beatrices dad. But then since you learn to empathize with Beatrice after hating her you start to think, "Maybe he too had a tough past"
@@andrewkohler3707 right, was that the ex-wife from dream on?
I always thought the line her father says when he burns the doll, "your disease has infected everything", had a deeper meaning. She tells her son "You're BoJack Horseman, and there's no cure for that". I think at some point Beatrice saw herself as broken, and that she had infected her son with her own trauma, breaking him forever too, just like her doll as a child.
I mean, considering the time period as well as the fact that scarlet fever is notoriously contagious, Beatrice’s father probably thought he was doing the right thing
@@claudiatarnai6199 yes you’re definitely right, but her father was also very uncaring of Beatrice’s emotions and the trauma she was dealing with from losing those closest to her. that doll was the last thing she truly cared about at that age, and the way her father basically shrugged it off and was very cold her (not even just with that but in general) was what hurt her so much. for a kid so young like she was that doll was basically her coping mechanism, because her father failed her and her mother so much, and he couldn’t care less about how she felt watching it burned to nothing. i can understand why she was upset, i get what you’re saying but even aside from him thinking it was right, he was not a very loving father to her.
@@tiny_m0wagreed. He makes all men look bad.
Still sad that her mom says to not love someone as much as she loved Cracker Jack. Finding out a parent clearly loves another sibling more than you has to just suck
Even in the scenes with Crackerjack you can tell they favor him more than Beatrice, since he’s the man and the oldest
@@sketchyjulia Maybe I’m thinking too much in to this right now, but it makes me wonder now had BJ been a girl, would she have treated “her” any better, as she may have been jealous/resentful of the male gender- and maybe “doll” (and her childhood baby doll) was presumed to be female, which is why she might have treated it better(as she would sympathize more and maybe want to give another female a better chance than she had growing up in a misogynistic environment- heck, maybe why she’d be so insistent on Henrietta putting Hollyhock up for adoption and getting her away from Butterscotch, Henrietta did tell her it was a girl when she showed her the ultrasound)- but again, I’m probably overthinking it lol
I don't think that is implied. I don't think Beatrice was included in Honey's calculus when she said that.
@@arielcausey909 i think hollyhock is a good example of how beatrice would have treated a daughter. she was always very kind to hollyhock, unlike bokack, but she still enforced her ideas of beauty onto hollyhock by drugging her
@@adrianjames9038 Oh, that’s probably right- but she was already in the midst of her dementia and her mind stuck somewhere in the past, maybe she would have been better and tried to change her treatment of girls while she was still young and not as set in her ways yet, but maybe not
At 11:00 I love the detail of her delayed response to how the ice cream tastes. To me I always saw it as her not actually knowing what it tasted like bc all her life she had to subscribe to the gender norms. She couldn’t eat ice cream so she doesn’t know what it tastes like.
I’m sure she had ice cream later on in her life.. lol
Same. I like how the hesitation comes and her facial expression lookes uncomfortable. I figured she knew he was lying cause she only ate lemon and sugar at the lakehouse.
I thought her pause was her knowing it was all a lie but going along with it anyways even if it didn't seem right. I didn't think about the fact that she probably never had ice cream. It's even more sad.
That scene has stuck with me far too much. I understand why Bojack left her in that crappy nursing home, but I hate that he did it.
Except she had had ice cream before! In Season 4, Ep 2 - The Old Sugarman Place. Her and her mother go out and she asks if she can have a Freezy Pop and her mom says she can have whatever she wants. That probably is the only time she had it though so she probably doesn’t remember it
Subscribe to whos channel?
what i hate about bojack horseman’s fans is that they always try to explain bojack’s bad actions (penny, sarah lynn, his toxic behaviour towards pc, todd, diane, herb and approximately everyone) by his childhood but will never do the same for beatrice (or even diane)
The misogyny in this fandom is 🤮 I understand people’s hatred of Beatrice since she’s pretty awful but people were so quick to jump on Diane for the smallest mistakes. Plus there are even people who blame penny for “leading Bojack on”.
Repeat after me: “being the legal age of consent does not equal emotional maturity/experience. And certainly not when someone well into adulthood is involved.”
@@alyssapinon9670 exactly ! it just angers me sm but at the same time it gives such a good example of the double standards between men and women
I dont know who you talk to but painting an entire audience as sexist isnt very wise.
It's perfectly understandable that bojack is talked about more because...the show is about him. He has the most screentime, the most detailed monologues and conflicts. Saying it's because of misogyny is just short sighted.
Yeah, so many of them think this way :/
It’s so surreal to think some of the cruelest people, used to be starry-eyed, innocent children
She's genuinely one of my favorite characters, my mom acts just like her and she had a very traumatic story my grandfather was extremely abusive and sexist, this show genuinely made me understand her better. Forever grateful.
Yeah but no amount of trauma justifies how much of a bitch she was to her son
@@jaydee6574 No excuse, but it just reflects a cynical cycle that happens. Her parents broke her and abused her and she does the same and sometimes the kid keep some of those tendencies. It's hard to break such a toxic cycle
How are you now?
Its quite a shame we never got to see Butterscotch's backstory
i wonder why that is to?
@@reddead102 show was cancelled by Netflix
He probably also had abusive parents
He didn't really seem like he was abused, he just seems like he was an irresponsible man who didn't use protection and didn't want to face up to the consequences of his actions. He was too proud to do what was best for his family from the start, and also resentful that Beatrice didn't take care of his irresponsibility for him so he could write his novel instead of doing right by the family he is responsible for creating. He just seems like an irresponsible typical self centred man (not saying all men are like this but Butterscotch certainly fits this category).
It's heartbreaking that the last piece of advice Honey was coherent enough to give to protect her child only further pushed Beatrice down the rabbit hole.
I think it's worth noting that a hidden side to abuse is that a lot of abusers were abused themselves. As it's kind of a double-edged sword, I want to make clear that I'm not sympathizing with abusers. I'm saying bad people have complicated backstories in real life, but are still bad. You can, in fact, have both at the same time. With literal dictators having horrible backstories, it's probably the norm. I guess I'm trying to say that Beatrice's story is, unfortunately, not as special as one might think.
You know what they say. Hurt people hurt people
my mom was never abused by her parents but by other people and never believed in therapy . i learned a lot about her terrible past but i also rightfully told her that she had no right to ruin my life because hers was ruined and she refused to get help for it .
@@randompromises1038 hope you seperate from her and now ok
that’s one of the themes the show focuses heavily on, especially with bojack. He grew up in a broken home, and he went on to hurt so many more people throughout the course of the show. Part of his messed up philosophy is that his actions are justified because of his bad home life, so he never takes any accountability and ends up ruining so many great relationships.
This show managed to do what very few can: make the audience sympathize with a bad person without forgiving their actions. Villains don't all need redemption arcs for us to like them, sometimes you just need to make us understand WHY they're despicable, without pretending they AREN'T, in fact, despicable.
Her exit in “View from Halfway Down” was the perfect summation. Once crackerjack died, her life unraveled with his passing.
Hey did anyone notice that Harper (Bojacks imaginary daughter with Charlotte) is:
A) named after Harpers Landing
B) the same color coat, mane and white star as his mother as a child
It’s so weird seeing Bojack being so nice to his child, who looks SO MUCH like his mother. I mean I’m happy that in this fantasy of his alternate life, he isn’t another link in the chain of generational abuse.
Part of me thinks that he was being a good father to Harper because he thought “maybe this is how Bea would’ve been if she wasn’t a terrible person”- or maybe, even out of spite. Like, of course it would be a “Bojack thing” to totally be biased towards his child who is the spitting image of Bea as a kid, but out of “good natured spite” he would actually treat her much better than Bea treated him as a kid, kind of like an “Fuck You” to his mom.
This makes so much sense. I agree
I think it's more an unconcious yearning to have that close relationship if not directly with his mother, than with some similar represention of her. A fuck you attitude usually results in a toxic relationship
I like how long they waited to show us her backstory. They let us have this specific view of her for multiple seasons and even when her storyline with Hollyhock started, we didn't get any insight until the very end and we were left with all this hindsight and its a really good way to show how people stories are always bigger than what we see of them. She didn't become less of a terrible person but she definitely became more personable
Beatrice is honestly probably my favorite character. She was a horrible mother and person and her backstory doesn’t excuse that, but damn she went through so much trauma before she was even an adult, all of which was out of her control/ was factored by the sexist time period she grew up in. Many other women at that time likely went through similar experiences like Honey and Beatrice
Fun fact: Beatrice baby doll is the same/looks exactly like the imaginary daughter bojack has in his dream with Charlotte.
I wanna see Todd next, he's had so many adventures and such an insane professionnal résumé his episode is bound to be packed!
I wish they’d done more with him.. I feel that there’s not enough there
It’s up now.
Pity the person they were not the person they became. Hate their actions and loathe their existence, but understand their journey.
The fact that “Time’s Arrow” is my favorite episode makes this episode even more captivating. Masterful work as always, Johnny.
EDGEYYYY
P S
Good choice of profile Pic
This story sums up generational trauma so well. We see exactly how Beatrice was molded, and therefore how Bojack was cast. A vicious cycle that forged such a powerful picture of how everyone could benefit from a little therapy.
It's so heartbreaking that Beatrice's only happy moment since many years of hardship happened during her final days, at a deplorable nursing home room with Bojack.
She's definitely a perfect example of a tragic villain
"Even horrible people are tragic," as Thomas Adès said of the Duchess in his magnificent opera Powder Her Face.
A timeline to show the decay of a woman and the decay of a mind
Okay but can we just appreciate that Wendie Malick absolutely KILLS all of her voice acting jobs, she's truly talented🙏🏼
There is so much dramatic irony in that scene where BoJack drops Beatrice off at the nursing home, it could almost fill a video on its own.
My read on it is that she was buying in to the whole Michigan story until BoJack tells her she's eating ice cream.
This snaps her back into reality for a moment, as she knows she would have actually been eating sugar on a lemon, a detail which is known to the audience, but not to BoJack. She grits her teeth and resigns herself to her hopeless situation. Notice how her entire demeanor changes as she tells BoJack the ice cream is delicious. There's no way in hell she's going to allow him to think he's finally won the war in abandoning her once and for all in that desolate nursing home. BoJack leaves, never knowing his final attempt at a modicum of empathy towards his toxic mother was a failure. He had good intentions, but once again ends up hurting someone even more because, well, he comes by it honestly. He's BoJack Horseman and there's no cure for that.
Seriously, I've never seen another show that does nuance like BoJack Horseman, but those five seconds of television left my jaw on the floor.
And sadly the ice cream detail was one of the few things that wasn’t his fault. He just didn’t know
I don’t think that’s true, you’re seeing something that isn’t there.
she must have had ice cream at some point.
@@TheWinstonSlip Yeah I feel like that's one of the first things she would have got as soon as she got out of her father's thumb.
@@TheWinstonSlip I think she probably didn't eat ice cream, because of the stuff that was ingrained into her, but I don't think the ice cream really snapped her out of it or that she didn't want to let Bojack win. I think she just didn't know what ice cream tasted like, So she couldn't really figure out a word to use, Like she was trying to search for a memory that wasn't there.
@@TheWinstonSlip she had a lick of the popsicle she got before Honey started singing with Eddie the fly. Probably doesn't remember it because of what happened after
The sugar man family is the perfect representation of “you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain”.
What does this mean? For a hero?
love how this show explained her character, not excused her.
The idea of “victim becomes abuser” is so horrifying to me because Me and my boyfriend do want to have kids but we both grew up with parents who were abusive in different ways (emotionally unavailable mom and mentally and physically abusive dad for me) and though I feel like we would be incredible parents due to not wanting to be like our parents I can’t shake the fear that we’ll be exactly like our parents and is horrifying
I think as long as you have worked through your trauma to make sure you don't act out with other people (physically ir emotionally) from the effects of the abuse you experienced, then you can probably be decent parents. Don't repeat their mistakes, and also don't overcorrect (e.g. lack of setting safe boundaries and healthy non physically abusive discipline for crossing these healthy boundaries, or letting them go too far in the other direction of what you experienced, such as being overly supportive and trying to fix any problems for them to the point they never learn how to deal with any tough life circumstances themselves).
I always thought it was interesting that Beatrice seemingly recognized Hollyhock as the baby she put up for adoption. Saying that Hollyhock “looks just like ‘him’” (Butterscotch) and that she “took the her away”after Bojack tells her Hollyhock is gone.
Maybe I’m willing to empathize more with her than Bojack because I can see everything that broke her with just two episodes
Yeah same. with Bojack it was more tidbits than a full story
It also feels like bojack did more damage than Beatrice did,.. he hurt every person who went to horsing around for comfort, he almost had sex with a highschool student, he choked his co star, and he left Diane that final voicemail
Beatrice as awful as she is, and how it isn't excused, it's so much easier to empathize with her. That's just my opinion tho, I might be wrong
@@nibonz5414 not to mention he waited those 17 minutes...
It just now dawned on me that she didn't even want to RISK loving Bojack the way Honey loved Crackerjack. So when she had a SON and was put in the literal EXACT SAME position as Honey, she chose to detest him... heartbreaking.
I think that Beatrice shows a lot of who she could have been had her situation been better through her dementia. The part where she calls Horsin' Around a "comfort" comes to mind mainly, bc she would have never said that about the show when she was in her right mind. Same with her care towards the baby doll, which she never gave young Bojack. I think those few moments of kindness she shows when she lost the grip on the character she put up her entire life show she could have been a loving mother and a good person if her trauma (mainly her mother's words to her) hadn't ruined her, which makes her character all the more tragic
I’d love to see an unnecessarily deep dive into the logic of the BH universe. Like rounding up any and all references to the implications of being in an animal populated world (underwater civilizations, imagery of horseshoes despite hooves not existing, food animals, a peninsula populated entirely with labradors..) and seeing if there’s some grand unifying theory that emerges.
Normal people with a time machine:
Cool, i'll see my mom when she was a kid
Me with a time machine:
NO HONEY, DON'T MAKE YOUR OLDER SON GO TO THE US ARMY
But then we wouldn't know the greatness that was Bojack Horseman
He was probably drafted.
You live in the same universe as them? Jeez, how cool is that?
I mean I would probably at least say for her to seek therapy or grief counselling (whatever little of it existed back then) instead of get a labotomy, or maybe tell Beatrice to make sure Butterscotch uses protection
“make” ?? I highly doubt with how much she loved her son she wanted him in the army. He was probably drafted or chose to join because of all of the pro war propaganda at the time
I hate the fact that I love Beatrice. Coming from a story stand point.
You were born broken, that's your birthright.
*Beatrice Horseman*
Wendie Malick's delivery of that line is *terrifying.*
Soul crushing
Everyone in her life failed her and she failed everyone in her life. Sed lyfe.
One of the best written characters for so many reasons
Wow - that's an amazing summary.
Alright another Bojack vid, i swear Johnny out of all the Bojack Horseman vids i've watched yours are the greatest no one does a Bojack video like you do!!!
I struggle with bi-polar depression and anxiety as a result to the abuse I went through as a teenager. Bojack horseman literally broke me. I was up for 3 days on an elongated existential crisis. The realization that sometimes people are cruel and disgusting hit me so hard. But it inspired me to continue doing what I love and that’s helping people and being there for others unlike people were for me.
Everyone is responsible for their own actions, but although the same time it's real unsettling to realize bojack really had a chance
I’ve been WAITING for this.
Tbh she’s my favorite character because of how much work was clearly placed in her. She deserves more love... from her parents and the world and butterscotch. Lol she did some garbage stuff and shows her “tough love” in the worse ways. She gets my appreciation and I’m also glad she’s not my mother 😓. She’s not justifiable (look at other people like Cinderella who also had an abusive background but was still kind and empathetic and showed it in healthy ways) but, she’s very interesting
A sad story beautifully told. A+ video as always mango!
Great timeline! Beatrice is a horrible person but a great character, and Time's Arrow is probably my favorite episode - its use of storytelling techniques is superlative.
Thinking of a reality where Beatrice had the arranged marriage and was actually happy in that relationship
Bojangles creamerman
I felt so sorry for Beatrice I just wish she would have grown up a happy life with a mother that loves her without being lobotomized and her father would have supported his wife and help do the grieving process instead of giving its gender norms
Finally, some more Bojack, I fell in love with your channel because of the show! I also love your other work though!
Hey Johnny. Love the videos as always! I did notice something in the video though. When you said Beatrice was 18 at her debutante ball in 1963, it would've put her birth year at 1945. Because she just got back with her Bachelors, I think she was a little older than that. It was just something that made me scratch my head a little. Keep up the good work. Your BoJack videos are the best to watch!
Yep, that was a mistake on my end, usually debutants debut as teenagers but I forgot that Beatrice did after she graduated college.
@@Johnny2Cellos not your fault that instead of a bachelor Beatrice returned with a Bachelors degree smh 😤 /j
Also Clemilia said “better late than never” which supports that Bea had hers considerably late for a socialite
You didnt bring up that Beatrice never tasted vanilla ice cream, which means she realized what Bojack was doing but still played along herself.
Oh wow. Great observation there.
She is such an interesting character its amazing. You said it best, getting to know more her story, her actions arent justified but we cant help but have some pity for her, amazing video love your content man
I just realized something.
Beatrice has a white diamond mark on her forehead
Bojack, her son, has a white diamond mark on his forehead
Butterscotch does not have a white diamond mark on his forehead
Hollyhock, who is related to Butterscotch but not Beatrice, still has the diamond mark on her forehead.
Butterscotch told Beatrice that his mother had a diamond just like hers when he was flirting with her back at her debutante ball
Yeah genes can skip a generation so it's not a plothole imo
I Like beatrice as an character, and i think that she's a great example of a good character that started doing bad things beacuse of her childhood/environment
The “when you go somewhere, don’t walk, gallop!” Line is funny which is nice in comparison to the rest of the timeline
Wendie Malick nailed her characterization at every age
Beatrice was actually my favorite character for her backstory alone
7:37 I never noticed that because it's Beatrice's delusion, the only things in the fridge other than the wine bottle are sugar and lemons
She is really complicated imo
Thank you for making this :)
I think the tone of how characters talk in this should be spoken about it’s not just what’s being said, it’s how it’s been said a lot of it and why the show is so successful
I haven't started the video yet and I know it's gonna destroy me. Keep up the great work, Johnny!
Beatrice is easily one of the most interesting, complex characters in the show to me. When we first see Beatrice (and for the majority of the show), we feel hardly anything but disdain for her, given how she raised BoJack and treats him in the present day. While her actions are never excused, the show makes it so that we can empathize with her by presenting us with both the beginning and end of her life; in the former, we see the abuse and familial trauma she endured, and in the latter, we see a woman whose very mind is deteriorating, yet manages for one of the only times in the show to connect with BoJack. Her character is one of the main reasons I love episodes that focus on the history of the Sugarman family
Bojack asking Beatrice if she could taste the ice cream in her last scene in the series is genuinely one of the most powerful things I've ever seen in my life.
I choke up every time I hear it and the empty, wistful response afterwards.
She never tasted ice cream
she falters when answering him. obviously a callback to her childhood, where she wasn’t permitted to have sweets, likely dragging those rules into her adulthood, not permitting herself to have sweets. it’s upsetting, and yet one of my favourite things about the tv show.
the scene where Bojack was telling her that they were at the summer home made me burst into tears. It was horrifying to watch.
You're absolutely right, we can't justify Beatrices horrible actions, but at least we can relive her past and see were all the hatred was coming from.
What's really sad about Beatrice's story is how she was as a young woman. She was witty, snappy, intelligent, and funny, but all that was lost because of her horrible father and a poor choice in husband.
11:00 Has to be the most hearbreaking moment for me, what she did was an act of love for bojack, as small as it may seem, it's the only one we see in the entire series, she did that for him, she was pulled out of her fantasy because she never knew what ice cream tasted like but she didn't want to ruin that moment between bojack and her; she knew bojack would never know that and still played along.
That was brilliant Johnny, BoJack's family always fascinated me!!!!
Knowing Bojack’s story with Beatrice, the power dynamic in their abusive relationship, and the fact that Bojack yelled out “I have the power now!” after his “f you mom!” speech, it really makes the question “do you enjoy having power over women?” a little more haunting.
This character made me realize I was excusing my horrible actions with trauma and I am working to be a better person now.
I get you. I have emotional outbursts and I have anger issues, but I always try to be better.
something ive always wondered is if hollyhock ever reunited with Henrietta- bc although she DID agree to Beatrice that she would give up the baby its obvious that she wanted to be a caring mother. something I also wish that they did was that when they find out that her and bojack are half-siblings that bojack takes hollyhock to butterscotch's grave
I think she mentions that she met Henrietta at one point, but I can’t remember what episode it was.
@@Theartisticyoshi At the end of Season 4 episode 12, Hollyhock calls Bojack from the airport where she’s waiting to fly to Minneapolis to visit Henrietta
Excellent review on Beatrice, dude!~ :D She really is a complex, interesting, & tragic character! ;(
She is the perfect example of someone who you can't forgive but when you know why she is the way she is you feel sorry for her. She lived through hell and made it a mission to make everyone else's just as bad yet it hurts me deeply when she fakes what she thinks ice cream tastes like. I do think it would have been nice if he had gotten her some ice cream for her final moments its not like him to do so, he just probably felt bad that she was going and there would be no real release fro the trauma and stress she caused him.
Watching times arrow really made me cry and hit literary close to home cause it reminded me of my grandfather who just as Beatrice was a bad person with a past that explains but not excuses it.
His father, a cheerful optimistic Russian soldier died in WW2 and his younger brother passed away the same year at the age of only 2. He was the youngest of the three brothers and his moms favorite, being the only one who had his fathers eyes. She became literary insane thinking her baby is crying somewhere or telling my grandfather and his brother their dad called. He and his older brother moved to their aunt who had high expectations and wasn't holding back with mental abuse which his older brother let out on him in form of physical abuse. It went so far that grandpa started working at age 11 to not be at home. He married his best friends sister in law and despite his unwillingness had a child with her, because for him she was as he said "the one or no one". He let dad know that he didn't really wanted him and had abnormal expectations which my dad never lived up to by being talented in artistic ways and not athletic. He still is that way and really hated not doing something himself or relying on others. He called my dad out for calling a plumber or for getting me a tutor. He doesn't believe it's the right way and...his way became outdated and let's just say you can't pull off that stuff today. Grandma is the only reason we see him to be honest and we are planning to bring her to live with us since grandpa is yelling at her for forgetting stuff despite her dementia.
He never was shown love and when it was shown it was genuine but for a large price like with grandma and her wish for a child or got taken away in a brutal way like his parents. He does all himself and calls everyone weak who reaches out for help. Even when my parents sent me to therapy, cause it I should fix myself. Where did it get him? Not far
I wanted to bring this up as another example of a tragic childhood being forged in the 1940s creating a miserable adult whose resentment for all what happened bled through many generations. My dad is ashamed to ask for help and I don't know how far gone I am but my parents often got called to talk with my teacher due to my avoidance to work with others on group projects.
If only Beatrice could've had skillshare in her life :,(
“Time’s Arrow” is my favorite Bojack Horseman episode because I identify so deeply with its theme of generational trauma.
10:45 even out of the full context of the scene the exchange of "Bojack?" with his response hits me deeply.
A very tragic character. I still cry my heart out when I rewatch Time's Arrow.
PERFECT SEGWAY INTO YOUR SKILLSHARE SPONSOR 😂😂😂 I’m laughing so hard
Beatrice is honestly one of my favorite characters story wise
7:18 - OMG I forgot about this line! Devastating after "The Old Sugarman Place." :'-( And I've also only just now made the connection with "It's not Ibsen" and Butterscotch complaining about her reaction to A Doll's House.
I didn't even pick up on the significance of the doll until you pointed it out. It just speaks to how densely written the show is that you can still pick up on new details even after you've seen the show 3 or 4 times.
You know what drives a stake into my heart?
The reason Beatrice struggles to describe the taste of ice cream is most likely because she never got to taste it. And i cant imagine she would even when shes older because of how drived into her head the words of her dad was.
her story, specifically how bojack hates her so much but can't express it due to the dementia is something that hits way too close to home
The only time the show did something to address that “ hey they are Anthropomorphic horses” was during Beatrice’s ball where her debut was just a equestrian Cory where she made jumps over those pole fence things you see in equestrian sports.
The only time they do something horse related
I loved how Beatrice’s memories fade in and out. Like the family portrait.
I also like the detail that Bojack's fridge was filled with sugar and lemons for that memory.
The Beatrice episodes make me cry
A lot of people who hated Beatrice switched from hating Beatrice to hating Joseph after they learned her backstory, which is funny, because a lot of people who hated BoJack switched to hating Beatrice when they learned HIS backstory.
A lot of people seem to struggle with the concept that most people aren't exactly 'evil', per se, or at least, not PURE evil. Just because the show didn't focus on Joseph's childhood and/or backstory doesn't mean that it wasn't bad or didn't impact him in some important way. For as much as he tries to shun all emotions, there are numerous times where he clearly shows he isn't above them himself. There are numerous times where he either tries to briefly help Honey and Beatrice when they are upset, but for whatever reason, he quickly removes himself from the situation, because he seems to have had it drilled firmly into his head either by society or by his OWN parents that he has to always act and behave a certain way.
He is a decent person deep down and cares for his family, but the expectations he sets for himself and others don't allow him to ever really express that. He did absolutely horrible things under the guise of trying to help his family, but everything he did only made matters worse. Joseph needed Honey, and Honey needed Crackerjack. Without the latter two, the only person Beatrice had in her life to help her was the person least capable of actually providing any help, and it eventually ended up ruining her.
It wasn't that she was asking for the Intensive Care Unit, she was reading the sign because she was already in the ICU.
I'm digging this per-character look at the series. Thanks J2C!
That transition to the sponsor was actually really smooth
I’d love to see a dive into PCs episode where it flashes back to her younger self or Diane and PB’s divorce where fiancé tries to convince herself she’s ok and it didn’t break her heart because that episode made me Cry so
Much
I love this show so much...