Princess Caroline idealizing motherhood for so long really broke my heart and made me worry for her. It was the ultimate 'grass is always greener' mentality
More like it was the result of romanticizing something she had very little experience with, which is child care. *_An ACTUAL profession for a reason._*
She is literally my mom she's always like "you ruined my body" "you made me waste my youth" "you better be someone great to make my sacrifice worth it" all things my mother has said to me
I never noticed Ralph and the fox boy came from families that expected Princess Caroline to become what they wanted her to. Huh. No wonder she dumped Ralph.
@@dangkhoa0202Judah is more than that, he works WITH her. They have compatibility because they have likeminded goals and he likes her for her and does not want to change that. They later are on more equal ground when he becomes a business partners. I think it was a very natural progression
Didn’t help that Ralph and his family were so racist against cats and Princess Carolyn without realising it. Also, teenage PC got pregnant with the rich family’s teenage son’s baby, his family was gonna make them marry before she starts showing until she miscarried.
One of my favorite things about Princess Carolyn's arc is that, while she gets that love means giving hard work, she struggles to receive that hard work from others. It's part of why she is stuck in a relationship with Bojack for so long: she is used to being the caregiver, and becomes attached to those who give her problems to solve. It's an all-too-common pattern for incredibly kind people. I love that she actually ends up with two genuinely kind and nurturing men (Todd and Judah) on her team. She's deserved it for so long!
It’s not necessarily that PC is kind, it’s that she is codependent. Codependency is when one person believes it’s their job to “save” another person by attending to all of their needs (which is why Princess Caroline can’t just be Bojack’s agent, but also his gf and get involved in his personal problems, until the final episode). A codependent person builds their identity around this purpose and takes on a self-sacrificial role in the relationship Signs of codependency *Lack of satisfaction or purpose in life outside of the relationship. *Tendency to endure a partner's harmful behavior. *Idealization of partner (only seeing their good qualities and potential) *Enabling partner's poor choices and behavior. *Controlling behavior. Will use manipulative tactics because they can’t state their needs *Guilt when not attending to their partner's needs and wants. Addicts attract codependent people. How do I know this? My dad is an addict and my mother is utterly codependent on him. I was raised by Bojack and PC. They’ve been married 37 years and counting, and honestly it’s worse than ever. It’s also common for the children on addicts to fall into codependent relationships (which is PC, look at her mother). If you know what to look for, you’ll start spotting them everywhere That’s why it’s such a win in the last episode when PC says “I can recommend some wonderful people”. That is PC turning away from her codependent relationship with Bojack and putting up boundaries. It’s the key to her happy ending. Her lovely new life with Judah wouldn’t have survived if she kept repeating her unhealthy cycles with Bojack.
Something missed about Beatrice which I think is very important to point out: pregnancy, birth and looking after a baby is EXTREAMLY difficult. It changes a women physically and mentally, forever. As seen in Time's Arrow, Beatrice didn't even have any family or Butterscotch with her when she gave birth. No-one really talked about how awful motherhood can be, so being hit with reality after leaving her family to elope and having a baby with someone like Butterscotch would've left Beatrice in an awful condition. She wouldn't have known how much her body would change and losing her sense of self. She had no close friends to fall back on, and doctors wouldn't have taken her seriously. It really does take a village. It's no surprise she needed a nanny. If Beatrice had a friend like Vanessa Gecko maybe things would be different.
I severely doubt that. If the birth went easy she would still probably be abusive bc the extent of her character runs deep into her childhood nd her lavish life
@@gachathis4858I don't think they are saying that having an easy birth would have changed things, they are just saying that one major difference to consider between PC and Beatrice is that PC didn't go through the physical process of pregnancy and childbirth. And even an easy pregnancy and delivery take their toll. Pregnancy changes a woman's body in a myriad of ways, up to and including the changes to her brain. That doesn't automatically mean that women who have traumatic and isolating deliveries will be abusive or vice-versa, life is much more complicated than that, it's just one of many points to consider as to why people turn out the way they do.
@@ndawn90PC also had a support system when she had her baby. Todd stepped in to baby-sit, She could talk through her problems with Diane, when she crashed Bojack checked her into his rehab for the weekend. We don't see Beatrice get any friends until after she becomes rich again. When she reaches out to her husband for help (albeit through a fight) he throws it back in her face and makes it about himself (needing to be rested for work) while guilt tripping her (so I can support the baby you wanted) he "supports" her without supporting her.
Huh? Butterscotch was a tool but he was there when BoJack was born. He also went to work for Joseph and (according to BoJack) they spent just about every summer with Beatrice’s parents at their vacation home. She wasn’t alone. She just couldn’t cut it as a parent and couldn’t accept responsibility for her failures.
@@starkman78 As seen in Time's Arrow he wasn't *physically in the room* during the delivery, which was the norm for fathers back then. He only took the job working for Joseph after Beatrice basically begged him to. And even then all he did was go to work, them come home to 'work on his novel' with some cheating slipped in. Do you really see Butterscotch changing diapers or doing night feeds? I never justify Beatrice's actions towards BoJack but I sure as hell feel bad for her.
I think there’s more to it than Beatrice didn’t feel like being a mom. After Honey was lobotomized, she couldn’t raise Beatrice. And we all know Joseph wasn’t going to raise her; he would’ve thought raising kids is just a woman’s job. So, who raised Beatrice? Joseph probably hired a bunch of maids and nannies to raise Beatrice for him. He didn’t want to raise her, so let the servants do it. And that became Beatrice’s view of what parenthood is. She wanted to keep the baby, but when she saw she didn’t know how to raise him, and realized she didn’t want to be a mom and this isn’t what she wants her life to be, she wanted to get a maid and a nanny to do it. Because that’s what parenting was for her: parent doesn’t do it themselves, they pay a servant to do it. And the parent just occasionally interacts with their own kid.
Also she literally promised Honey she won't love anyone as much as she loved her firstborn. I'm not saying she really meant that promise, but sure was a crazy scary moment that haunted her everytime Bojack (her firstborn and only child) was seeking for her motherly love.
@@bilgeakaln6335Well aside from not wanting to raise him and being unable to love him she also really resented Bojack. She was so immature that she pinned all her frustration on him and blamed him for her own decisions, not that this excuses anything she did but it’s always interesting to think about what drove Beatrice to be the way she is.
I love they showed Princess Caroline struggling with her new daughter. Cause it is a huge problem for alot of new mothers who at the time don't know how to feel or don't feel "love" for their baby yet- so I just love them discussing it and showing how it can be normal. Even though not everyone watches the show, I think it's a great way to help show that it'd a normal thing and that women shouldn't ashamed of those struggles.
You can love your kids but it doesn't mean you like them. I know everyone thinks something something * magic * woman hormones and you just instantly love whatever person the universe plopped in your lap.. but thats not true. Its not a moral failing or a personality flaw, sometimes no matter how much you live someone you still just don't like them. Do we all love every member of our family AND like them? Of course not. You might love your problematic uncle but that doesn't mean you like him personally or any of his choices and behaviors.. hell if it wasn't for family he's not a person you'd ever speak to.
@evil1by1 Yes, that is true but that's not what I'm talking about, your on a whole different thing. I'm talking about the struggle of new mothers adjusting to their new babies, and how they feel ashamed if they love their baby but don't "LOVE" their baby. I also hate the say you can love your kids but you don't have to like them, cause it implies that you only like them cause they are your childern, your should love them for who they are and that they are your child- if someone doesn't they should try to talk to someone or improve that if possible. A uncle and your litteraly baby/child are also different scenarios. I understand what your saying, but what does that have anything to do with my comment? Like seriously, what?
I think the reason Beatrice tells Bojack her father knew what marriage was probably comes from a place of her thinking "I should've just married the guy he was setting me up with" since she was so unhappy with Butterscotch
I also think there might have a been a point where she decided that her father was right to lobotomize her mom. He was the only one left to guide her vision of the world, her mother couldn't defend herself against his words anymore, he was the only one still capable of "caring" for her: when she got scarlet fever, her father was the one to panic and make sure she got healed, while her mother only stood there, because she had no capacity to worry for her daughter left. She also heard him scold her mother for failing to keep their daughter safe, which was the second time counting the time where they almost crashed the car. She probably thought, father is the only one here who cares enough to yell at mother and get stuff done even if I'm not happy about what he does. Even after her rebellious phase, she was still taking the beauty pills to fit into his vision of what his daughter should look like, and after marrying "the wrong man" she thought she should have married the other guy, like her father wanted. At some point I think everything connected in her mind and she thought he was the only one who had her best interest at heart, and she and her mother both failed in their decisions.
She said that in a conversation with Bojack where he suggested his parents to get divorced. Lobotomy was supposed to be an innovative and less invasive treatment compared to institutionalisation, and Joseph never sent her away or remarried even when the results were not something he was expecting. She wasn't locked up at home either, he would still talk to her and accompany her in public events. Considering how even the Kennedy's sent Rosemary to professional care indefinitely after her lobotomy I think Joseph really did care for Honey and tried his best to support her in sickness and in health.
@@user-qx8cz9yx9v louder for the people in the back. Lobotomies were the darling of psychiatry back then. Informed consent as we know it now didn’t exist. Doctors took a very authoritarian approach to patient care and pushed their methods without being transparent about the risks. Joseph AND Honey were probably told that this would be a magical solution to their problems….and Honey was probably blamed when it didn’t work out the way it “should” have. ☹️
It’s already a choice. People choose to sleep with one another, and the logical and natural consequence is kids. If people don’t want kids, then they shouldn’t sleep with others. Also, parents can put their kids up for adoption if they’re unwanted (which is extremely sad, as the parents should’ve never had the kid in the first place).
@@DimityPockets True, but some cultures really put pressure on women to have kids. This isn't even arranged stuff. It's things as simple as all the "You're 40, time is running out!" slop. "Are you SURE you want your tubes tied? What about a baby?!" It makes people feel like they *need* to have a kid and be a mom, just because that's how the world works and that's the next step in life. Thats what it seems everyone else is doing. Thats what everyone else is constantly nagging them about. It's similar to how people are expected to find love and get married. Having the kid is still their choice, but it's a choice that they can get swayed into making just because it's expected of them.
@tatiana3054 It’s important to note that abortion isn’t an effective or ethical method of birth control. Babies in utero feel pain at 12 weeks (according to both pro-life and pro-choice doctors), and it’s already been proven that they’re mentally and physically aware of their surroundings at an early stage of development (even before the 12 week mark, since their heart beats at around 5 weeks). On top of this, numerous studies show that having an abortion can, and often does, lead to negative mental health consequences for the mothers. In fact, my family has seen this first hand. It happens more than people know, and it’s a sad reality. What I’m saying is that people need to practice self control with sex. “Sex” isn’t a recreational thing, and will usually result in children. If people don’t want children, then they need to use self control.
I don't know whether this fits here, but thinking about it always hurts my heart: young Beatrice also promised her mother to never love anyone as much at Honey loved Crackerjack. She could never have loved her baby, no matter what.
Eh, that's not true, part of Beatrice's torment is that she still never subconsciously stopped being the person expected of her by her parents. But like, she could've chosen something other than being miserable and perpetuating suffering by taking out her unhappiness on Bojack. It's wildly fucked for a child to be made to promise that, and she didn't have to hold onto it. She made assumptions that her parents were correct in how they handled situations because they had wealth and privilege. And also sure she could've had issues loving a baby, but not loving someone versus abusing them are two very different things. Beatrice takes out her anger and bitterness on Bojack, and nothing makes that okay no matter how badly she was treated as a child and the fucked up things she was told to believe.
I think that's so true. Young Beatrice literally saw her mom loose her mind (LITERALLY when she had a Lobotomy to "help" handle her emotions) and that prominently scared her! Why would she ever allow herself to be so vulnerable 😭
I really wonder what kind of person Ruthie will be. She at least, has one very good role model which have been with her from the start and always will be there for her. I am a huge PC fan
i like to think she'll take after PC's cleverness, todd's easygoing attitude, and judah's logical thinking. a good, balanced person: the kind of person you can raise when you commit to fixing your issues
i think pc can love her child, she was overwhelmed with new motherhood which is very, very common w/ parents and the stress compounded her fear of having made the wrong choice, but she has the capability to love ruthie. beatrice didnt even think twice about bojack and just saw him as a hindrance
If you think that about PC you are missing her entire narrative. Her character arc with Ruthie was all about her adjusting to motherhood, overcoming the stress and learning to love her baby
@@pricklypear1704 It's the opposite. PC wants everyone to adjust to her lifestyle. Her priority has always been her job before any relationships/other people. Not a bad person but definitely not fit to be a mother.
I didn't realize that PC was mad at Ralph because her mother's words echoed in her mind. When she told him "find a girl that's easy" i was confused, and thought it was her ego talking. But it makes sense, as her mother really shamed her for the first miscarriage, she knows it's hard for her to have a baby. So she internalized Ralph's thinking, "if it gets hard, I'll look down on her" so she pushed him away
Bojack was actually nice and helpful here. His sarcastic comment about new mothers was actually good advice for Princess Carolyn. Usually Bojack gives shitty advice and is just a jerk.
The "You know i was beautiful before i got pregnant" scene was so heartbreaking on Bojack's part. While i don't excuse Beatrice's actions in her late adulthood (particularly towards Bojack), Joseph is the real villain of her story with his uncaring attitude and sexist mentailty (as example where he burned Beatrice's stuff including her plush toy).
Joseph didn't burn her doll because he was sexist, he burnt all of her stuff because she had scarlet fever. People didn't have a good understanding of bacterial infections at the time and he even tried to explain the reason why he had to burn her things, so she wouldn't get infected again. It did scare and traumatise Beatrice but he was never uncaring, he literally cared so much he tried to set her up with an heir of a major company (so she would be taken care of for the rest of her life) and when she ignored his advice and eloped a stranger, he gave his son-in-law a 6 figure earning job with no experience or qualification. Joseph cared so much more for Beatrice than Butterscotch ever did for Bojack.
We've also got the biggest difference between them: a support network PC has Judah and Todd in her corner, and even Vanessa, Diane and Bojack to a lesser extent Beatrice...has The Help.
I do think Beatrice's father regretted what he did. There is a scene where this look of sadness crosses his face. I think the flashbacks are seen from Beatrice's POV and she's been traumatized, so it seems like he's threatening her with "ending up like her mother" as he's burning her doll. In reality, I think he (in the wrong way) was trying so hard to make sure she didn't go through what Honey went through. But still wasn't equipped to be an available father. PC would have been the perfect mother for Bojack, but time's arrow did not march that way.
No because also, like, she HAD to burn the doll. Like that's just what had to happen to keep the sickness from re-infecting her. Which sucks but...yk. I don't really think he understood the actual effects it would have on Honey to get that procedure. I don't think he would have ever done it if he knew because he so clearly fucking regrets it. He lost his wife and it ended up putting his daughter in danger AGAIN. He almost lost his other child. Who he probably thought off as his last family tbh after the way Honey just stopped being present after the lobotomy. Scarlet fever could cause seizures so bad that your brain just...like...stopped working in the same way. It was incredibly dangerous. I don't think that was a threat I think it was just a fact.
@@Aphelion.s_Abyss It was common. I remember reading in an American Girl book they had real historical fact sections for education and one that stuck out to me was the concept of sick rooms (quarantine old school) how people would have to tent up their entire home, if kids got sick even if they weren't in the same family they were locked in their sick rooms until they got better. Books, clothes, were all burned but some books like hardcovers were 'baked' to kill the germs without burning. Since the Horseman's were rich I could see Joseph's thinking of "I'll just rebuy everything" without even giving a shit.
@@arashiuchiha1591 Sugarman's* Horseman was the unfortunate last name of Bojack's father ToT NO BUT YEAH I agree. I bet that's what her was thinking. Thanks for that insight btw. Man, American Girl books were always something else.
@@Aphelion.s_Abyss Oh your welcome! I don't go here in the Bojack fandom but I've watched so many commentary videos on it, but as a history buff the Beatrice Arc always intrigued me because of the significance it had for it's era and what was considered 'normal' during that time vs now. The American Girl books even the mini stories really did go hard on it. I remember one story, from the Peak into the Past section had people remark that half the time, they only publicly obeyed the orders and that a lot of the parents would go "We can't afford to burn our kids belongings" so if medical staff weren't involved, it'd be easier to turn a bllind eye.
It’s totally fair for PC to feel like she hasn’t completely developed that motherly bond with her baby. She idolized motherhood for so long that the harsh reality wasn’t something she prepared for. That’s fair. It doesn’t make her a bad mother or an unloving person. She just needed to figure out how to properly handle her many responsibilities and find a way to form her life around having a child. More often than not, your child can’t fit into your life, your life must change for your child, even if only for some parts. When she finally figured out how to do that, she was able to properly form a bond with her daughter and feel that motherly love Edit: I suck at spelling
Princess Carolyn was always my favorite character ngl. A Butterscotch Horseman video would be interesting since we know so little about him yet he has a big effect on the show
@@CannonZeroKiryu it seems the animal characters in BH retain base species instincts but no hunter/prey instincts because theyve evolved to understand food and sapience. Like, PC can land on her feet, Bojack drinks and takes medicine like a horse body requires, birds can fly, aquatic mammals (think the orca girls) can swim, etc. But there is no crave to kill. Theyre people after all, just not hominids
I think contrasting these two characters just shows the impact of whether or not we want our trauma to define us. Beatrice never admits her father's faults or the abuse and because she's unwilling to face the trauma or work through it, it consumes her and by extent Bojack. Princess Caroline, however, doesn't let it define her, enabling her to find the strength and resilience to be a good mother to Ruthie. And that's just it: Abuse or trauma of any other sort can and will change you, but it doesn't have to define you. If you won't let it. Sometimes you can get there on your own, sometimes with some help - but you have to put in the work.
I remember watching S1 and being convinced that Princess Carolyn was going to realize that she actually didn't want a baby, it was her internalized sexism against childless older women and seeing motherhood as a way to "succeed" at being a woman. I really like that they went the direction of Princess Carolyn genuinely wanting to be a mom and finding fulfillment in it despite the challenges, and she made it happen on her own terms :)
You missed an important part of the reason for Honey's lobotomy. It was not until she took out Beatrice, got drunk, and then had Beatrice drive which resulted in a car accident that could have killed Beatrice that Joseph Sugarman decided to take her to get treated. He could not have selected a lobotomy for Honey; only medical professionals could do that. It's fair to say she didn't need one and her husband failed her but it's wrong to miss the fact she became dangerous to her young daughter. The family fell victim to a medical practice that today is considered barbaric. We are all fortunate that psychiatric treatment is no longer what it was a few decades ago.
@@Aphelion.s_Abyss Just like many families signed off on lobotomies. Every day millions of people follow what a doctor says to do, often without question. And I'm not here to debate what cartoon characters were and weren't intending to do. The show is designed to make the viewer think through different perspectives and remember that we often see things from Bojack's perspective or just Beatrice's perspective as a small child in this case.
@@aliz7592 Yeah, except we're never really shown that a DOCTOR told her she NEEDS a lobotomy. Just that HE made that decision. I'm not saying what you're saying is discredited by this but it was absolutely his decision and partially on him. He DID decide to get her a lobotomy.
bro its so funny how is genuinely terrified of speaking to beatrice because of his internalised idea that women aren’t people who have feelings as well
The difference may be even due to the very simplest reason, that one really actively wanted a kid and one absolutely did not. After all it ironically could be way easier for Beatrice to spend quality time with her kid having all that help and literally nothing else to to do. However, she was just not interested. Beatrice was never mentioned wanting to be a mother. She just felt guilty for not wanting it and then she thought she was doing the best job and a favour as a mother could to Bojack, bt not having loved the kid "like her mother loved Crackerjack" and remaining consistently detached. It was easier for her to have no bond with her kid than risk having it and loosing it like it happened to her mother. i personally don't think it had much to do with her taking things for granted, rather the opposite of it at least in terms of emotional connections. She never believed she could have it and not loose it.
If anything what's crazier she was more career oriented and fought really hard to get her education,even graduate with a degree despite being those times and wanting to work in the workforce I honestly think it would've worked out better if she focused on herself and then have Bojack later instead of doing it so young
I never realized that Beatrice never cared for bojack bc she was not used to hard work, so doing the hardest job ever (child rearing) was not of interest to her. She was pampered and lazy. She wasn't independent enough to be a parent. She was just a kid
Beatrice wanted to use her college education for something else and didn't white children. She only married butterscotch because what else could she do ? It doesn't justify the fact that she was a terrible mother. It just explains a lot. If it wasn't for that pregnancy, she would be doing anything else.
Glad to see this pointed out. Remember in Time’s Arrow, when Bojack is in his crib crying? Beatrice doesn’t even bother to pick him up and cradle him to try to help. This can read as her attachment issues of course, but I definitely always saw it was Beatrice failing to realize that yes, babies take work. And this time, she wouldn’t have a nanny or housekeeper to whisk her problems away.
I don't want to fault your theory, because its a good theory, and everyone should have a grasp on their own theories. But in my opinion, Beatrice was used to hard work. She got a diploma when she was supposed to get a guy, in Josephs words. Faught to be educated, and faught to survive -- she was bullied and torn down the whole way through, but never gave up, and planned to further her education then persue a career in a time where women weren't supposed to work. She WANTED to be hard-working. She wasn't lazy, she was stunted. When she gave birth to Bojack, she had to give her dreams up and go with a guy that cheated, ridiculed, and mocked her because she thought 'it would work'. She was reassured, it would work. But it didn't, obviously. When her maid went off with Butterscotch, she wanted her to get an abortion as she was going through school to be a nurse. 'If I can finish school, and get a job. It will be okay'. In my mind, Beatrice told herself that. Hence why her response was, 'Don't throw your dreams away for for this child. Don't let that man poision your life like he did mine. You are going to finish your schooling'.
Man, I can never get over the scene where Vanessa Gecko gives PC the advice about being a mother. So many mothers struggle with that feeling of, “I don’t feel the way I think a new mother is supposed to feel about her baby”, and I really loved Vanessa’s take on it. “You’ve just picked up one of the most demanding jobs on the planet. It’s not always going to be this beautiful, idealized version of motherhood, and you’re rarely going to feel like you have things under control. All you can do is your damn best to raise that kid, and know that you did everything you could.” Becoming a new parent is such a HUGE change in your life; it’s a lot to adjust to. I’ve had multiple parents tell me the first few weeks were so rough they felt like they were losing their fucking mind, but that over time, you do get the hang of things, and they get a lot better.
I love love love how Princess Caroline (who is amazing at everything she does almost naturally) has such a difficult time as a first time mom, when it's what she's always wanted. It's such a great way to show that the idea of something can be so different from the reality of it ❤ and I ABSOLUTELY love that Caroline is able to put her idea of what it should aside and allows herself to embrace the reality of motherhood and is finally able to truly bond with her baby 😭 Caroline is the best and deserves the best
In defense of Joseph, many people had no idea that lobotomies were the horrible thing they were. It was touted as the cure all for any and every mental illness. Honey also said she wanted help and in that era it was seen as the best version of help. The way to keep people out of permanent stay in the asylum. Yes, he does use that against Beatrice later saying she’d end up like her mother. But before people knew it erased personalities, it was seen as help. He even asked her in the hallway “what has become of you?!” Because people genuinely didn’t know that is what would happen to people who got lobotomies. Anyways that’s my rant about lobotomies.
Watching your kids grow up or have fun is amazing but no matter how much you love them, having to do something 24/7 with only breaks that are preschedued will always be a pain. Even the dream job gets annoying at times. In the old days having the kids play outside and come when the street lights turn on was giving mom a much needed break.
No offense, but the way this is worded just sounds kind of strange to me. If Kids are hard work then why have bother having kids/caring for them in the first place? It's your responsibility as a mother to take care of your children. If you want a break get a baby sitter, organize your schedule, etc. Never blame your lack of time management on your kids, that's ridiculous.
@princessnazario2597 they never mentioned the kids being the problem, or parents neglecting their children, its important to acknowledge that parents also need a break and support, not to get rid of their children, but to have a time to care for themselves or other matters as well, this especially applies to single parents who usually can't afford a babysitter or daycare. Parenthood takes a village, unfortunately when the village sees something it doesn't like it tends to run away.
Can I just talk about how much I love that first scene in the whole series, Caroline and Gecko were such professional rivals yet when princess carolin needed real life advice on something that so little women have any help with or show vulnerability and she didn’t take advantage of that vulnerability but actually lifted her up, such a beautiful scene tbh
So what it comes down to it is that Princess Carolyn wanted a child very much and was willing to put in the work and chose a man who could love her and her adopted daughter the way a husband and father should. Beatrice made the mistake of marrying the wrong man and kept Bojack even though she didn’t want him in the first place. Even with the financial security given by her father she chose to wallow in her own misery and took it out on her son rather than put in any effort to change anything. PC’s upbringing for better or worse made her a fighter, Beatrice’s upbringing and one bad choice made her complacent.
I think the key difference between PC and Beatrice is choice and age (which again comes down to choice). Beatrice didn’t get to choose motherhood. It was forced on her at a very young age. She didn’t get to choose her co-parent. She didn’t get to live any of her life before motherhood arrived. PC got to live an extra 20 years before becoming a mother. She achieved many things, dated many people, made mistakes, worked hard, had fun. Motherhood for PC was a battle. She had to REALLY want it to make it happen. She also had the resources and life experience to do so on her own, not stuck with a partner she didn’t know and didn’t like. This is why reproductive freedom for women is so important. Beatrice should have had options aside from marry a guy she met once and having a baby at such a young age. Look at the child-rearing environment this forced pregnancy led to; who could think that’s ideal?
You might be forgetting the details, but she did *choose* to have BoJack. We see that she had a conversation with Butterscotch about whether to keep the baby, and considering her background the cost of an abortion wouldn't have been an issue. But her traumas and her desire to rebel made her choose to keep the child.
The situation of pregnancy was so similar, except for one different, it actually happening! PC and the son of the family she worked for was an Intimacy between social classes that resulted in a pregnancy, which was the same as Beatrice. But Princess Carolyn didn’t go down that path, while Beatrice had. If PC hadn’t had that miscarriage, her life likely would have ended up strikingly similar to Beatrice’s. And I think Beatrice knows this, in the way she treats Henrietta
I think the big difference was that PC’s mom wasn’t trying to create a perfect version of PC. Sure, she still wasn’t a good mother, being an alcoholic and wanting to use her daughter’s pregnancy to secure her future, but she didn’t care as much about what PC did so long as she still got what she wanted out of her. But Joseph (and even Honey, when she was sane) tried to groom Beatrice into the perfect debutante daughter from a young age. She wasn’t allowed to eat ice cream because it’s “boys’ food,” she wasn’t supposed to lift anything heavy because she’d “rupture her uterus,” she wasn’t supposed to read because it would take development away from her breasts and hips, and worst of all, she wasn’t allowed to cry because, “crying is stupid,” and Joseph threatened to have Beatrice lobotomized if she did cry. And when Beatrice rebelled against that, she ended up with a selfish husband and a son she wasn’t supposed to love for fear of being hurt if something ever happened to him. Of course she was miserable. No matter what she did, she couldn’t do anything right. She lost her spirit and was left with no cause to use her intelligence because she believed that things would get worse no matter what she did. PC , on the other hand, was able to become stronger because she had to grow up so fast to take of her mother who was lazy and negligent where Beatrice’s parents were overly controlling and perfectionist. It doesn’t make what her mother did right, but something positive did come out of it in that PC had the gumption to be a leader because she had a lot more practice than most people did. She was also kinder to her mother in the way that children generally are, which is why she tried to make Bojack a better person for as long as she could. That says a lot about her positive traits just as much as it does about Bojack’s negative traits. She just had to find the right person who will give back to her just as much, which she eventually does with Judah. Judah was even mature and patient enough to wait until PC worked through her own issues and was ready for him.
I don't think Joseph lobotomized Honey to avoid her emotions. I think, to an extent, he truly wanted to make her better, and lobotomy was presented as the cure-all. I think he really loved her.
Joseph is a great example of someone who does all of the wrong things for the right reasons. For example burning Beatrice’s things after she contracts scarlet fever. We can see that it greatly traumatized her and is the reason she kept Bojack, but he did it so that the disease wouldn’t be spread. Joseph having honey lobotomized is him doing what he thought would be the “cure”.
I love how Vanessa Gecko can be cutthroat but still respect PC. She doesn't pull punches because she expects PC to rise above them, but she ends up not being villainous at all. She really is exactly the kind of rival PC needed
ASTONISHING VIDEO, MATE!!! Absolutely adored this contrasting analytical essay's format and you delivered each point masterfully!!! ✨✨✨ Love the contrast between these two; both were affected by their household ideals and the trauma they brought, both initially gave the opportunity a go… but while Beatrice quickly detached from the idea at the moment she realized it was not what she desired and decided to escape from it the only way she knew (by her vices), gave up way before she even started, which makes the situation even more depressing as she was pressured by it since the start, resulting on her blaming her poor decision making on poor Bojack, never taking the opportunity to at least try; meanwhile, PC had the exact opposite conviction, she tried endlessly up to the point she began to think she was worthless, that she was "blowing it"… but instead of giving up, she was committed to fulfilling her dream and making worth every opportunity, so when it came, even if she felt struggling and doubts began to flood her head, she just kept forward and took her own pace, eventually and rapidly succeeding after every failed attempt and the immeasurable pain they delivered since contrary to Beatrice, she truly loved her child and was willing to sacrifice anything for her (heck, even taking her biggest rival's advice, which was overly helpful), and in expense, becoming a SPECTACULAR mother… immense Kudos for PC!!! 💖💖💖
I actually felt like PC with a rescue cat. He was literally knocking on heaven's door so he needed surgery and constant 24hr care for the first 4 months we had him. We also had to keep him separate from our resident cat in a one bedroom apartment whilst allowing them to get to know each other's smells etc. His scent kept changing with all the vet visits and meds so for our cat it was 4 month's of who TF is in my house?! I knew I loved him but I didn't have time to feel it and I felt so guilty that I wasn't feeling what I wanted to feel. It's 4 years on and rest assured we've made up for lost time, he is my big baby boy (despite being 12 now) and I felt such relief when I got that warm fuzzy feeling finally. If you're willing to put in the work, that's the love speaking, it just doesn't look how we imagined.
Indeed. That was the difference especially since Beatrice never seemed to be a mother, let alone put in the work. Though as a side note do you think you would do a video on Sarah Lynn's or a video about Joseph Sugarman and toxic masculinity ?
No, it’s not okay to just take care of your child because it’s your job. It’s not okay to just “Keep them alive” or see them as a project. Your child WILL notice, and it will break their heart. A child’s life revolves around their parents and their view of themselves is 100% based on how much you love them.
I'm 31 years old and it's taken nearly 5 years of therapy to undo the damage of a parent "just showing up" and making me feel unwanted growing up. And I'm still working through it too. I genuinely believe people should be given reversible birth control like vasectomies etc. and they must go through a vetting process to have a child, you have to be financially emotionally physically and mentally capable of raising an entire human being. So many broken people out here breeding like rabbits continuing the cycle of neglect and abuse.
@@shirokun002 I’m sorry about that. As for the other part..I mean, I see what you mean, but I don’t trust the government to decide who will be a good parent. They could exclude you based on your political or religious beliefs, claiming that having beliefs contrary to theirs makes you unstable. Besides, if we forced all boys to get vasectomies at 18, that could be really traumatic as well. And they’re not fully reversible as your fertility will never be the same after that. And who would pay for it? I don’t think people should have to pay for a surgery they don’t even want, but I don’t think the taxpayer should have to pay for it either. Besides, what about side effects? All surgeries are a little dangerous, as people can have adverse reactions to anesthetics. Choosing to take that risk is one thing, but having it forced on you is another. Besides, many people don’t want to have sex outside of marriage. Forcing that surgery on them seems really unfair. Besides, forced sterilization of poor and handicapped people has happened before and it wasn’t good. Again, it might be considered temporary but there are some permanent effects, which seems really unfair to people who didn’t consent to it. I think instead we should provide more education and resources to parents who might need a little more pushing in the right direction. It’s not perfect, but forcing vasectomies on every young man in the country just doesn’t make sense to me. Actually, it seems really dangerous and tyrannical.
@@shirokun002 I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I'm glad you're getting better, that's... just awful. Ooh, but I'm proud of you for the therapy thing! I don't think I could set foot into a therapist's office, I am far, faaaar too scared XD.
another parallel i find interesting is both PC and beatrice going to university, but while PC leaves to build a new life from scratch (and put the hard work in to even get there), Beatrice simply returned home.
To keep with the theme of Mothers, I’d love to see you do a video on Bloberta from Moral Orel. I feel like a lot of people don’t give Bloberta enough credit, she grew up in a society that only valued women for being a checkpoint in live to pass, just to marry and have children as that’s the Christian thing to do. It’s clear she never really had any close connections or people to love her, except for her father and Jesus, both of whom are depicted as being drinkers but still kind. I truly don’t think it’s fair that so many people point to Bloberta and blame her for ruining clays life. She influenced him, but she had no idea of knowing the man he’d become because of it, and he could’ve easily not drunk his drink or stopped drinking earlier in the night but he didn’t; and his total lack of self control when the slightest bit of pressure is applied is a ongoing trait of his (When Ms Censordoll seduces him, him getting easily angered, trying to fight at the bar when everyone just wants him to stop) so I don’t think it’s entirely fair to Bloberta. it’s sort of like introducing your friend to someone, and they start dating , but when the relationship turns toxic they blame you for introducing them for the first place and any lifelong consequences they may have. Just because you introduced someone to something doesn’t make you the cause of their addiction and make you the ruiner of their lives, they made plenty of decisions along the way on their own for that.
I completely love this parallel. I also think there must be one between Diane and Butterscotch and her book of essays and his great american novel. He though his book would mean something to society as she thought her book would mean something for people like her. I'd love a video on that
I was told that trauma is like a snow mountain. If you climb it and reach the top, you’ve overcome it. But if you fail to, it will bury you in snow and leave you cold. PC overcame so much and she reached the top. Beatrice barely even bothered and well, we all know how her story ended. 😢
I love how the show paints everyone as a Broken person rather than a bad person as a lot of things in life are morally grey rather than black and white
That moment with PC hits me so hard. There are times I imagine how great it would be to be a father, but I'm worried that I would be terrible at it and/or have these kinds of feelings.
I must indeed appreciate this. Thank you. °~•.☆.•~° It takes a healthy person to make a healthy couple. A healthy couple to make a healthy family. At 42 and my partner being 51 still eager to be parents but not stupid in getting there. Children only get one childhood I'm going to make sure mine get a damn good one.
i really like your bojack videos because i feel theyre the most levelheaded and well rounded deconstructions of the show ive seen on youtube. you somehow manage to both holistically understand and carefully dissect every single character, it's super interesting and entertaining!
beatrice and PC both even give advice to a pregnant woman in a similar situation! beatrice takes hollyhock from henrietta, not wanting her to make the same "mistake." in PC's case, at first she tries to pitch herself as the best candidate for parenting sadie's baby. then after strib proposes to sadie, PC tries to talk her out of it. but eventually she tells sadie she can do whatever she wants, but it has to be for her own sake and no one else's
i think one of the most heart wrenching scenes in the whole show is when bojack drinks for the very first time. when he’s just a kid, and his parents are both passed out after a party. he takes a swig, then goes to curl up with beatrice. and he *smiles*. despite how cruel beatrice was, despite her very obvious lack of love for bojack, he still sought out her warmth. that always gets to me.
Did anyone notice that in the scenes showing Beatrice giving birth she's in the room alone. Makes you wonder what butterscotch was doing while she was giving birth and if that was one of the staets to her harsh realization that what she accepted isn't what she expected
How my mum described falling pregnant with me after my parents honeymoon; “I thought I had a blocked ovary but the doctor said it’ll be unblocked by late July, you’re pregnant Mrs blank. I cried and cried because my life was over, but I decided I wasn’t going to let this baby ruin my life. Whatever I want to do, I’m doing it. And the baby will just have to deal with it” When I said I was leaving they said “you want to sleep rough? Go ahead. I’ll give you a lift to the train station, that suitcase looks heavy” If you’re waiting for “the thing” that finally makes your parents respect you as a human being, it’s not coming, you were never going to be “enough”. My conception was the first of my betrayals and she never forgave me for it. It’s been 10 years of no-contact bliss, I highly recommend it 💖
Yay, finally :D Glad to see the video come up soon! One other suggestion I could make, if you don't mind taking it from series other than BoJack, it could be interesting to inspect the case of Garret Miller from Extreme Ghosbusters and his overarching theme of 'belonging'. From his extreme sports ex-buddies (who just turned out to be 'extremists'), to becoming a professional sportsman, to being recognized as a writer, to a 'future' episode where he's the only one not recognized in a Great Ghost War, to being ousted as unlucky because of the curse, to his fear being pretty much being left alone. There's a lot to unpack there. Or Quantum Leap - Sam Beckett's selfless crusade through time, where he leaps from body to body to changes events to a better result, wondering why he can't bounce out. One, that leaves him no choice from righting the wrongs, because of his nature... Precisely because he chooses to do better by humanity, as he could've lept out a hundred times, but didn't. (Actually I'm an avid movie/TV watcher and overall media buff when it comes to older stuff, so I can throw in suggestions from older TV shows and movies (if you do those at all ;o) which would be interesting to figure, because there are things that a lot of people just don't cover, like XGB or Quantum Leap I've pointed above)
Beatrice is as guilty as her father, just as much as Bojack is as guilty as his mother. Everyday we have to step out and say to ourselves 'are we going to be better' because the world is not kind- it is not peaceful, nor is it easy, it has never been easy, every era all across the world has suffered its own issues. But we have to make that choice, we have to make that decision, WE HAVE TO DECIDE if we are going to be better. That isn't saying its easy, it never is, but its up to us do what we can to make our lives better.
I would say it's very different, Carolyn was responsible for her entire life and wanted to make something more of herself, Beatrice was heavily traumatised and came from an era where men could easily control women and she let her trauma make her into a horrible person.
Not gonna lie. When i just found out about Bojack horseman. The first head Cannon come in my head is all the anthropomorphic animals were what Bojack see from his own point of view since he's on drugs and drunk. Its possible he hallucinating most of the time.
There's an anime like this, (something) Taxi, where bc of the main character's trauma he sees everyone (including himself) as animal people but it's not revealed till the end. Really good series with a compelling mystery and set in current day.
It makes sense tbh, it's sort of like Night in the Woods where a popular theory is that all the animal characters are just from the protagonists point of view and the different types of animals are how she sees them
@@ploonette222 it is? I use to come across the game tho but I don't know about the lore of the game. That's great,also I love the art style of the game,it has animal features characters but it didn't look uncanny.
What I think is interesting is they had opposite moms too. Honey Sugarman loved her kids so much that she deeply grieved her son's death. she had traditional values but was kind and loving prior to the labotomy. If her husband had been there for her she could have been a semi-good role model for Beatrice. princess Caroline's mom barely cared about her kids and was pretty okay being a non traditional single mom. Beatrice didn't have a woman building her and the father she had made her cold and normalized mistreatment. Princess Caroline's mom was not perfect but allowed her to venture into the world and do better for herself. PC's mom became better for prioritizing her kids. Beatrice's mom became broken from prioritizing her kids.
I missed the part about how their childhoods were similar. One's got emotionally unavailable parents, the other has needy mother. One doesn't have to work for anything, the other does her mother's work. The circumstances that they became mothers was drastically different. B's child is accident and forces her get married before she is ready to a man she quickly starts to dispise. PC has fertility problems. She knows she wants a child by the time she has ruthie.
I just realized, did she name the baby Ruthie because of the speech Vanessa Gekko about the job of being a mom being ruthless? Am I reaching? Cause before then she was calling her “untitled princess Carolyn project” or something like that if I’m remembering correctly
It's also from a daydream pc has frequently of a descendant of hers telling her story/ looking up to her. In that episode she was named Ruthie like PC's soon to be daughter But I like the ruthless joke too because this shows full of puns
There's something I've always wondered why after Honey's failed lobotomy why Joseph didn't just quietly send her to an asylum or living facility Kennedy's father did that with Rose Kennedy after her failed lobotomy if Joseph had done that he could have remarried like many men of his time would and try it again for a son with his new wife which wouldn't have been uncommon
I think it's because in a way he loved his wife so much that he couldn't bear the thought of sending her away and I think he genuinely saw labotomy as a way to "fix" her even if we know nowadays that lobotomies can lead to all sorts of problems
I think the difference between Beatrice and Princess Caroline is the environment in which they grew up. Princess Carolyn literally had to solve other people's problems all her life, so she matured early and developed patience and hard work. Princess Carolyn is really strong, life made her that way, unlike Beatrice, who did not have problems of this kind. I think besides the fact that she wasn't ready for a child in her life, she took out all her anger and unfulfilled ambitions on Bojack. I think the fact that she always blamed her son for her problems was a defensive reaction under which she hid all her grievances and regrets. Beatrice didn't even try to change anything, she just sank deeper and deeper into her unhappiness because she never tried to take life into her own hands. I know that everything I wrote is no different from what was said in the video, but I really wanted to speak about these two
I wonder if Beatrice would have been different if Bojack was a girl I wouldn't expect her to be a perfect doting mother all of a sudden But I wonder if she would have seen herself more in a daughter and considered the difficulties of being a girl
Idk if the statement Beatrice never worked hard is accurate. At least in college she seems to have. I think it was less that she never had to work hard and more that every effort that she ever made was brutally devalued to the point that she didn’t see the point in putting effort in. Every single thing she ever got emotionally invested in got destroyed so emotionally distancing herself was a way to keep safe. Her brutality towards Bojack was in a really jacked up way her way of showing maternal instinct. In a twisted logic kind of way if he was something she didn’t love and she hardened him to the world early he wouldn’t have the devastatingly tragic life she had. The main difference between Beatrice and Princess Caroline is the duration of their suffering. Princess Caroline suffered but she had moments of mental respite where she experienced success and positive feedback. Her mom while abusive did finally make a choice that put her interests at heart by handing her the acceptance letter. Beatrice didn’t get that. Beatrice went down a one way soul crushing assembly line right into a trash compactor. Her parents never deviated from awful enough to give her an opportunity to experience something good. No one in her life did. Not her parents, not her partner and not even her son. The choices we make are our own but people can’t make choices that they don’t know exist. Beatrice is an example of how non-stop trauma fast tracks a person into more trauma and into being people who create trauma. Trauma is a treadmill set at top speed and you have to stop a treadmill so people can get off safely or they’ll keep running until they pass out. Princess Caroline got those chances to get off and regroup. Beatrice didn’t.
yk one thing this made me realize is the "lead necklace causes PC's miscarrages" theory is wrong. PC miscarried before she wore the necklace for a long time-- her mother also wore it while being extremely fertile. so there.
Ypu talk about how Joseph Sugarman took away Honey's personality and all i could think of is those women who lose themselves in marriage and kids. Suddenly not someone with all their interests or wants theyre just a wife and mother Like PC's mom and Cooper tries to destroy PC's personality but failed because ot PC's miscarriage
Honestly i was scared that PC would be like Beatrice and get the baby but then push all of the responsibilities of caring for her onto Tod. At first it seemed like she was and i was relieved to see that not only did she find her balance of work and mom but Todd basically forced himself into that role.
If there's anything more tragic than the Story of Beatrice Horseman in this show I don't know what it is She loses her older brother and mother at a young age and Joseph Sugarman was barely a competent father an obsessive workaholic who barely spent time with his family Honey's lobotomy leaves her as less than a shell who then plants the horrible message in Beatrice's young mind that everyone she loves will leave her so love is pointless a toxic mindset that turns her into a beyond horrible mother
i'd like to imagine if beatrice's father wasn't so corrupted by the toxic masculinity in the 40s-50s maybe beatrice would have been more of a better parent and cared for bojack then equalising in bojack not being a total dick-head and a jerk but thats just me it breaks my heart tho when the only scene when she cared for him was either when she had dementia or when she was asleep and bojack curled up to her.
"As an american man, I don't know how to handle a woman's emotions. And I will never learn"? Dude! The Sugarman dad told beatrice not to read books because it is kinda bad for women, therefore he reads, he never accidentally read fiction about a guy lover hugging his love? Or anyone hugging in fiction when someone cries? How about hugging in general? A squeeze of a hand there? *confusion*
About the thumbnail, it is not the same start, princess Caroline wanted to have a child, not having an immediate bond is not the same, Beatrice didn't wanted that pregnancy, not to mention PC was born with nothing, not even a real caring family, Cooper shows more care for her than her mother, meanwhile Beatrice grew rich, with a loving mother, father (loving for his time) and specially his brother, she never needed to struggle, even after getting pregnant, his father wanted to do everything he could to make her comfortable, yet, even if their backstories where the same, even if both were trustfund kids with no money struggles that didn't loved their children immediately, one fact would remain, PC wanted the baby, Beatrice didn't, and that is the fundamental difference, love can be built if you want, love is both, an emotion and a choice, and it is important to recognize that, because many movies make it seem like something that it is not.
Yeah, Bojack's dad should have had the soul searching that PC did before becoming a parent. The fathers are never talked about enough. Bojack's mom signed up to be a parent with her spouse, and PC decided she would be a single mom. If Beatrice decided to be a single mom, would she have done better? Probably. Incompetent men like Bojack's dad and Grandfather are nothing but dead weight on a woman's happiness.
That's a great video. And I thought I was the only one who compared PC with Bea once I saw PC's past with her mother. Despite being from different socioeconomical status and family, both were going to held a heiress status (one due to birth and the other due to get married with a heir), had a fling with a guy, got pregnant and their lives took opposite ways because one became a mother (due to trauma and own desiciones) and the other didn't (because she couldn't biologically). It is like desiring the other's luck: Bea would have desired she could have miscarried like PC so she could be free and do whatever she wanted, even becoming a CEO of her family's enterprise or a hypocritical activist; and PC would have desired she could have a baby in the natural way (although her first pregnancy would have led to dire consequences in her life and her future baby). And it is ironical, or common, that both want what the other has while they can't appreciate what they really have nor see what the other has suffered for having the life the other wanted. However, the series have pointed out that women's lives are better without babies although that could be because both have different personalities (Bea became a bitter woman, while PC was going to be a ruined woman if the marriage was going to happen, and that in the end, PC got everything: a successful career and a family even though not in the conventional way).
Princess Caroline idealizing motherhood for so long really broke my heart and made me worry for her. It was the ultimate 'grass is always greener' mentality
I can relate to her kinda in same boat
Same
Part of me thinks it’s because she wanted to give herself the childhood she could never have,through her own child
@@Shyroxas I’m sorry I hope you have kids someday
More like it was the result of romanticizing something she had very little experience with, which is child care.
*_An ACTUAL profession for a reason._*
"You ruined me bojack " to a five year old bojack that's wild dude
And he's so abused and used to this that he just says, "I know."
She is literally my mom she's always like "you ruined my body" "you made me waste my youth" "you better be someone great to make my sacrifice worth it" all things my mother has said to me
@@bob5253
Aw man that sucks.
The hardest part is learning that you were never actually the problem.
@@bob5253 I can never understand people who blame their kids for existing. People like that shouldn't have kids.
I never noticed Ralph and the fox boy came from families that expected Princess Caroline to become what they wanted her to. Huh. No wonder she dumped Ralph.
While Judah literally works for her. That makes so much sense.
@@dangkhoa0202Judah is more than that, he works WITH her. They have compatibility because they have likeminded goals and he likes her for her and does not want to change that. They later are on more equal ground when he becomes a business partners. I think it was a very natural progression
Didn’t help that Ralph and his family were so racist against cats and Princess Carolyn without realising it. Also, teenage PC got pregnant with the rich family’s teenage son’s baby, his family was gonna make them marry before she starts showing until she miscarried.
One of my favorite things about Princess Carolyn's arc is that, while she gets that love means giving hard work, she struggles to receive that hard work from others. It's part of why she is stuck in a relationship with Bojack for so long: she is used to being the caregiver, and becomes attached to those who give her problems to solve. It's an all-too-common pattern for incredibly kind people. I love that she actually ends up with two genuinely kind and nurturing men (Todd and Judah) on her team. She's deserved it for so long!
It’s not necessarily that PC is kind, it’s that she is codependent.
Codependency is when one person believes it’s their job to “save” another person by attending to all of their needs (which is why Princess Caroline can’t just be Bojack’s agent, but also his gf and get involved in his personal problems, until the final episode). A codependent person builds their identity around this purpose and takes on a self-sacrificial role in the relationship
Signs of codependency
*Lack of satisfaction or purpose in life outside of the relationship.
*Tendency to endure a partner's harmful behavior.
*Idealization of partner (only seeing their good qualities and potential)
*Enabling partner's poor choices and behavior.
*Controlling behavior. Will use manipulative tactics because they can’t state their needs
*Guilt when not attending to their partner's needs and wants.
Addicts attract codependent people. How do I know this?
My dad is an addict and my mother is utterly codependent on him. I was raised by Bojack and PC. They’ve been married 37 years and counting, and honestly it’s worse than ever.
It’s also common for the children on addicts to fall into codependent relationships (which is PC, look at her mother). If you know what to look for, you’ll start spotting them everywhere
That’s why it’s such a win in the last episode when PC says “I can recommend some wonderful people”. That is PC turning away from her codependent relationship with Bojack and putting up boundaries. It’s the key to her happy ending.
Her lovely new life with Judah wouldn’t have survived if she kept repeating her unhealthy cycles with Bojack.
@@ginao6810
This ❤
The fact that content is still being made about Bojack Horseman is crazy. You know it's a good show if we are still picking at details
Yeah!! I've watched this show 1000 times over and I'm not even kidding I notice a new background detail EVERY time I watch it, I love it so much
I'm literally on my third rewatch binging the episodes and I'm noticing so much more stuff that I didn't notice before
Something missed about Beatrice which I think is very important to point out: pregnancy, birth and looking after a baby is EXTREAMLY difficult. It changes a women physically and mentally, forever. As seen in Time's Arrow, Beatrice didn't even have any family or Butterscotch with her when she gave birth. No-one really talked about how awful motherhood can be, so being hit with reality after leaving her family to elope and having a baby with someone like Butterscotch would've left Beatrice in an awful condition. She wouldn't have known how much her body would change and losing her sense of self. She had no close friends to fall back on, and doctors wouldn't have taken her seriously. It really does take a village. It's no surprise she needed a nanny. If Beatrice had a friend like Vanessa Gecko maybe things would be different.
I severely doubt that. If the birth went easy she would still probably be abusive bc the extent of her character runs deep into her childhood nd her lavish life
@@gachathis4858I don't think they are saying that having an easy birth would have changed things, they are just saying that one major difference to consider between PC and Beatrice is that PC didn't go through the physical process of pregnancy and childbirth.
And even an easy pregnancy and delivery take their toll. Pregnancy changes a woman's body in a myriad of ways, up to and including the changes to her brain. That doesn't automatically mean that women who have traumatic and isolating deliveries will be abusive or vice-versa, life is much more complicated than that, it's just one of many points to consider as to why people turn out the way they do.
@@ndawn90PC also had a support system when she had her baby. Todd stepped in to baby-sit, She could talk through her problems with Diane, when she crashed Bojack checked her into his rehab for the weekend. We don't see Beatrice get any friends until after she becomes rich again. When she reaches out to her husband for help (albeit through a fight) he throws it back in her face and makes it about himself (needing to be rested for work) while guilt tripping her (so I can support the baby you wanted) he "supports" her without supporting her.
Huh? Butterscotch was a tool but he was there when BoJack was born. He also went to work for Joseph and (according to BoJack) they spent just about every summer with Beatrice’s parents at their vacation home. She wasn’t alone. She just couldn’t cut it as a parent and couldn’t accept responsibility for her failures.
@@starkman78 As seen in Time's Arrow he wasn't *physically in the room* during the delivery, which was the norm for fathers back then. He only took the job working for Joseph after Beatrice basically begged him to. And even then all he did was go to work, them come home to 'work on his novel' with some cheating slipped in. Do you really see Butterscotch changing diapers or doing night feeds?
I never justify Beatrice's actions towards BoJack but I sure as hell feel bad for her.
I think there’s more to it than Beatrice didn’t feel like being a mom. After Honey was lobotomized, she couldn’t raise Beatrice. And we all know Joseph wasn’t going to raise her; he would’ve thought raising kids is just a woman’s job. So, who raised Beatrice? Joseph probably hired a bunch of maids and nannies to raise Beatrice for him. He didn’t want to raise her, so let the servants do it. And that became Beatrice’s view of what parenthood is. She wanted to keep the baby, but when she saw she didn’t know how to raise him, and realized she didn’t want to be a mom and this isn’t what she wants her life to be, she wanted to get a maid and a nanny to do it. Because that’s what parenting was for her: parent doesn’t do it themselves, they pay a servant to do it. And the parent just occasionally interacts with their own kid.
Also she literally promised Honey she won't love anyone as much as she loved her firstborn. I'm not saying she really meant that promise, but sure was a crazy scary moment that haunted her everytime Bojack (her firstborn and only child) was seeking for her motherly love.
She didnt have to say “you ruined me” yo her literal child who didnt ask to be born in the first place. But I see your point
@@bilgeakaln6335Well aside from not wanting to raise him and being unable to love him she also really resented Bojack. She was so immature that she pinned all her frustration on him and blamed him for her own decisions, not that this excuses anything she did but it’s always interesting to think about what drove Beatrice to be the way she is.
I love they showed Princess Caroline struggling with her new daughter. Cause it is a huge problem for alot of new mothers who at the time don't know how to feel or don't feel "love" for their baby yet- so I just love them discussing it and showing how it can be normal. Even though not everyone watches the show, I think it's a great way to help show that it'd a normal thing and that women shouldn't ashamed of those struggles.
You can love your kids but it doesn't mean you like them. I know everyone thinks something something * magic * woman hormones and you just instantly love whatever person the universe plopped in your lap.. but thats not true. Its not a moral failing or a personality flaw, sometimes no matter how much you live someone you still just don't like them. Do we all love every member of our family AND like them? Of course not. You might love your problematic uncle but that doesn't mean you like him personally or any of his choices and behaviors.. hell if it wasn't for family he's not a person you'd ever speak to.
@evil1by1 Yes, that is true but that's not what I'm talking about, your on a whole different thing. I'm talking about the struggle of new mothers adjusting to their new babies, and how they feel ashamed if they love their baby but don't "LOVE" their baby. I also hate the say you can love your kids but you don't have to like them, cause it implies that you only like them cause they are your childern, your should love them for who they are and that they are your child- if someone doesn't they should try to talk to someone or improve that if possible. A uncle and your litteraly baby/child are also different scenarios. I understand what your saying, but what does that have anything to do with my comment? Like seriously, what?
I think the reason Beatrice tells Bojack her father knew what marriage was probably comes from a place of her thinking "I should've just married the guy he was setting me up with" since she was so unhappy with Butterscotch
I also think there might have a been a point where she decided that her father was right to lobotomize her mom. He was the only one left to guide her vision of the world, her mother couldn't defend herself against his words anymore, he was the only one still capable of "caring" for her: when she got scarlet fever, her father was the one to panic and make sure she got healed, while her mother only stood there, because she had no capacity to worry for her daughter left. She also heard him scold her mother for failing to keep their daughter safe, which was the second time counting the time where they almost crashed the car. She probably thought, father is the only one here who cares enough to yell at mother and get stuff done even if I'm not happy about what he does. Even after her rebellious phase, she was still taking the beauty pills to fit into his vision of what his daughter should look like, and after marrying "the wrong man" she thought she should have married the other guy, like her father wanted. At some point I think everything connected in her mind and she thought he was the only one who had her best interest at heart, and she and her mother both failed in their decisions.
She said that in a conversation with Bojack where he suggested his parents to get divorced. Lobotomy was supposed to be an innovative and less invasive treatment compared to institutionalisation, and Joseph never sent her away or remarried even when the results were not something he was expecting. She wasn't locked up at home either, he would still talk to her and accompany her in public events. Considering how even the Kennedy's sent Rosemary to professional care indefinitely after her lobotomy I think Joseph really did care for Honey and tried his best to support her in sickness and in health.
@@user-qx8cz9yx9v louder for the people in the back. Lobotomies were the darling of psychiatry back then. Informed consent as we know it now didn’t exist. Doctors took a very authoritarian approach to patient care and pushed their methods without being transparent about the risks. Joseph AND Honey were probably told that this would be a magical solution to their problems….and Honey was probably blamed when it didn’t work out the way it “should” have. ☹️
Not the Joseph defenders and labotomy apologist in the replies. 😂
@@strawbunny93 "not", indeed, because they're not here.
PC CHOSE to be a mother. Beatrice settled. This is why motherhood should be a CHOICE, not an imposition.
It’s already a choice. People choose to sleep with one another, and the logical and natural consequence is kids. If people don’t want kids, then they shouldn’t sleep with others.
Also, parents can put their kids up for adoption if they’re unwanted (which is extremely sad, as the parents should’ve never had the kid in the first place).
@ so, I'm sure you are also disgusted by the "your body, my choice rethoric", right?
@@DimityPockets True, but some cultures really put pressure on women to have kids. This isn't even arranged stuff. It's things as simple as all the "You're 40, time is running out!" slop. "Are you SURE you want your tubes tied? What about a baby?!"
It makes people feel like they *need* to have a kid and be a mom, just because that's how the world works and that's the next step in life. Thats what it seems everyone else is doing. Thats what everyone else is constantly nagging them about. It's similar to how people are expected to find love and get married.
Having the kid is still their choice, but it's a choice that they can get swayed into making just because it's expected of them.
@@DimityPocketsso just because you don’t want kids you shouldn’t have sex?💀 let’s be realistic. protection exists for a reason and so does abortion.
@tatiana3054 It’s important to note that abortion isn’t an effective or ethical method of birth control. Babies in utero feel pain at 12 weeks (according to both pro-life and pro-choice doctors), and it’s already been proven that they’re mentally and physically aware of their surroundings at an early stage of development (even before the 12 week mark, since their heart beats at around 5 weeks). On top of this, numerous studies show that having an abortion can, and often does, lead to negative mental health consequences for the mothers. In fact, my family has seen this first hand. It happens more than people know, and it’s a sad reality.
What I’m saying is that people need to practice self control with sex. “Sex” isn’t a recreational thing, and will usually result in children. If people don’t want children, then they need to use self control.
I don't know whether this fits here, but thinking about it always hurts my heart: young Beatrice also promised her mother to never love anyone as much at Honey loved Crackerjack. She could never have loved her baby, no matter what.
Eh, that's not true, part of Beatrice's torment is that she still never subconsciously stopped being the person expected of her by her parents. But like, she could've chosen something other than being miserable and perpetuating suffering by taking out her unhappiness on Bojack.
It's wildly fucked for a child to be made to promise that, and she didn't have to hold onto it. She made assumptions that her parents were correct in how they handled situations because they had wealth and privilege.
And also sure she could've had issues loving a baby, but not loving someone versus abusing them are two very different things. Beatrice takes out her anger and bitterness on Bojack, and nothing makes that okay no matter how badly she was treated as a child and the fucked up things she was told to believe.
I think she could've, maybe as bojack grew up he could've seen a bit of her brother in Bojack, but I guess we'll never know :(
I think that's so true. Young Beatrice literally saw her mom loose her mind (LITERALLY when she had a Lobotomy to "help" handle her emotions) and that prominently scared her! Why would she ever allow herself to be so vulnerable 😭
I really wonder what kind of person Ruthie will be. She at least, has one very good role model which have been with her from the start and always will be there for her. I am a huge PC fan
She has a lot of good role models; Princes Caroline of course, Juda her father and even Todd
i like to think she'll take after PC's cleverness, todd's easygoing attitude, and judah's logical thinking. a good, balanced person: the kind of person you can raise when you commit to fixing your issues
The two faces of a mother who couldn't/can't feel love or connect emotionally with their child.
I really don't believe Princess Carolyn should ever had kids. She wanted them for the wrong reasons.
How so?
i think pc can love her child, she was overwhelmed with new motherhood which is very, very common w/ parents and the stress compounded her fear of having made the wrong choice, but she has the capability to love ruthie. beatrice didnt even think twice about bojack and just saw him as a hindrance
If you think that about PC you are missing her entire narrative. Her character arc with Ruthie was all about her adjusting to motherhood, overcoming the stress and learning to love her baby
@@pricklypear1704 It's the opposite. PC wants everyone to adjust to her lifestyle. Her priority has always been her job before any relationships/other people. Not a bad person but definitely not fit to be a mother.
I didn't realize that PC was mad at Ralph because her mother's words echoed in her mind. When she told him "find a girl that's easy" i was confused, and thought it was her ego talking.
But it makes sense, as her mother really shamed her for the first miscarriage, she knows it's hard for her to have a baby. So she internalized Ralph's thinking, "if it gets hard, I'll look down on her" so she pushed him away
¹
Bojack was actually nice and helpful here. His sarcastic comment about new mothers was actually good advice for Princess Carolyn. Usually Bojack gives shitty advice and is just a jerk.
The "You know i was beautiful before i got pregnant" scene was so heartbreaking on Bojack's part.
While i don't excuse Beatrice's actions in her late adulthood (particularly towards Bojack), Joseph is the real villain of her story with his uncaring attitude and sexist mentailty (as example where he burned Beatrice's stuff including her plush toy).
She is also to blame for how things turned out
@@bob5253 Yeah. I wish she could break the cycle. But i guess she was acting according what she was learned, still don't excuse her though.
It’s such a stupid excuse, as well.
You don’t have to gain weight after you have children.
@@tell-me-a-story- I know. I guess the abuse she suffered must be severely messed her up.
Joseph didn't burn her doll because he was sexist, he burnt all of her stuff because she had scarlet fever. People didn't have a good understanding of bacterial infections at the time and he even tried to explain the reason why he had to burn her things, so she wouldn't get infected again. It did scare and traumatise Beatrice but he was never uncaring, he literally cared so much he tried to set her up with an heir of a major company (so she would be taken care of for the rest of her life) and when she ignored his advice and eloped a stranger, he gave his son-in-law a 6 figure earning job with no experience or qualification. Joseph cared so much more for Beatrice than Butterscotch ever did for Bojack.
We've also got the biggest difference between them: a support network
PC has Judah and Todd in her corner, and even Vanessa, Diane and Bojack to a lesser extent
Beatrice...has The Help.
Beatrice hearing "never love anyone like i loved your brother" is definitely one of the reasons she never tried to love Bojack
I do think Beatrice's father regretted what he did. There is a scene where this look of sadness crosses his face. I think the flashbacks are seen from Beatrice's POV and she's been traumatized, so it seems like he's threatening her with "ending up like her mother" as he's burning her doll. In reality, I think he (in the wrong way) was trying so hard to make sure she didn't go through what Honey went through. But still wasn't equipped to be an available father.
PC would have been the perfect mother for Bojack, but time's arrow did not march that way.
No because also, like, she HAD to burn the doll. Like that's just what had to happen to keep the sickness from re-infecting her. Which sucks but...yk. I don't really think he understood the actual effects it would have on Honey to get that procedure. I don't think he would have ever done it if he knew because he so clearly fucking regrets it. He lost his wife and it ended up putting his daughter in danger AGAIN. He almost lost his other child. Who he probably thought off as his last family tbh after the way Honey just stopped being present after the lobotomy.
Scarlet fever could cause seizures so bad that your brain just...like...stopped working in the same way. It was incredibly dangerous. I don't think that was a threat I think it was just a fact.
@@Aphelion.s_Abyss It was common. I remember reading in an American Girl book they had real historical fact sections for education and one that stuck out to me was the concept of sick rooms (quarantine old school) how people would have to tent up their entire home, if kids got sick even if they weren't in the same family they were locked in their sick rooms until they got better. Books, clothes, were all burned but some books like hardcovers were 'baked' to kill the germs without burning. Since the Horseman's were rich I could see Joseph's thinking of "I'll just rebuy everything" without even giving a shit.
@@arashiuchiha1591 Sugarman's* Horseman was the unfortunate last name of Bojack's father ToT NO BUT YEAH I agree. I bet that's what her was thinking. Thanks for that insight btw. Man, American Girl books were always something else.
@@Aphelion.s_Abyss Oh your welcome! I don't go here in the Bojack fandom but I've watched so many commentary videos on it, but as a history buff the Beatrice Arc always intrigued me because of the significance it had for it's era and what was considered 'normal' during that time vs now. The American Girl books even the mini stories really did go hard on it. I remember one story, from the Peak into the Past section had people remark that half the time, they only publicly obeyed the orders and that a lot of the parents would go "We can't afford to burn our kids belongings" so if medical staff weren't involved, it'd be easier to turn a bllind eye.
It’s totally fair for PC to feel like she hasn’t completely developed that motherly bond with her baby. She idolized motherhood for so long that the harsh reality wasn’t something she prepared for. That’s fair. It doesn’t make her a bad mother or an unloving person. She just needed to figure out how to properly handle her many responsibilities and find a way to form her life around having a child. More often than not, your child can’t fit into your life, your life must change for your child, even if only for some parts. When she finally figured out how to do that, she was able to properly form a bond with her daughter and feel that motherly love
Edit: I suck at spelling
Princess Carolyn was always my favorite character ngl. A Butterscotch Horseman video would be interesting since we know so little about him yet he has a big effect on the show
7:38 I love how there's a picture of a wolf couple with a lamb baby
That baby’s gone now lol
@@CannonZeroKiryu it seems the animal characters in BH retain base species instincts but no hunter/prey instincts because theyve evolved to understand food and sapience. Like, PC can land on her feet, Bojack drinks and takes medicine like a horse body requires, birds can fly, aquatic mammals (think the orca girls) can swim, etc. But there is no crave to kill. Theyre people after all, just not hominids
I think contrasting these two characters just shows the impact of whether or not we want our trauma to define us. Beatrice never admits her father's faults or the abuse and because she's unwilling to face the trauma or work through it, it consumes her and by extent Bojack. Princess Caroline, however, doesn't let it define her, enabling her to find the strength and resilience to be a good mother to Ruthie. And that's just it: Abuse or trauma of any other sort can and will change you, but it doesn't have to define you. If you won't let it. Sometimes you can get there on your own, sometimes with some help - but you have to put in the work.
I remember watching S1 and being convinced that Princess Carolyn was going to realize that she actually didn't want a baby, it was her internalized sexism against childless older women and seeing motherhood as a way to "succeed" at being a woman.
I really like that they went the direction of Princess Carolyn genuinely wanting to be a mom and finding fulfillment in it despite the challenges, and she made it happen on her own terms :)
You missed an important part of the reason for Honey's lobotomy. It was not until she took out Beatrice, got drunk, and then had Beatrice drive which resulted in a car accident that could have killed Beatrice that Joseph Sugarman decided to take her to get treated. He could not have selected a lobotomy for Honey; only medical professionals could do that. It's fair to say she didn't need one and her husband failed her but it's wrong to miss the fact she became dangerous to her young daughter. The family fell victim to a medical practice that today is considered barbaric. We are all fortunate that psychiatric treatment is no longer what it was a few decades ago.
Well, yes. But no. He definitely would have needed to sign off on her getting that lobotomy.
@@Aphelion.s_Abyss Just like many families signed off on lobotomies. Every day millions of people follow what a doctor says to do, often without question. And I'm not here to debate what cartoon characters were and weren't intending to do. The show is designed to make the viewer think through different perspectives and remember that we often see things from Bojack's perspective or just Beatrice's perspective as a small child in this case.
@@aliz7592 Yeah, except we're never really shown that a DOCTOR told her she NEEDS a lobotomy. Just that HE made that decision. I'm not saying what you're saying is discredited by this but it was absolutely his decision and partially on him. He DID decide to get her a lobotomy.
@@Aphelion.s_Abyssbut how he could have known how barbaric and uneffective this “solution” suggested by a professional truly is.?
@@justwalkingby3882 It was still his choice to get Honey a lobotomy
Vanessa Gecko giving her some motherly advice when these two women had always competed for clients was heartwarming. I loved that moment.
2:18 the way he runs away is so funny it sends me 😭😭
He scurried😂😂
bro its so funny how is genuinely terrified of speaking to beatrice because of his internalised idea that women aren’t people who have feelings as well
There’s some sort of connection between Beatrice losing her baby (doll) and PC losing an actual baby
The difference may be even due to the very simplest reason, that one really actively wanted a kid and one absolutely did not. After all it ironically could be way easier for Beatrice to spend quality time with her kid having all that help and literally nothing else to to do. However, she was just not interested. Beatrice was never mentioned wanting to be a mother. She just felt guilty for not wanting it and then she thought she was doing the best job and a favour as a mother could to Bojack, bt not having loved the kid "like her mother loved Crackerjack" and remaining consistently detached. It was easier for her to have no bond with her kid than risk having it and loosing it like it happened to her mother. i personally don't think it had much to do with her taking things for granted, rather the opposite of it at least in terms of emotional connections. She never believed she could have it and not loose it.
If anything what's crazier she was more career oriented and fought really hard to get her education,even graduate with a degree despite being those times and wanting to work in the workforce I honestly think it would've worked out better if she focused on herself and then have Bojack later instead of doing it so young
I never realized that Beatrice never cared for bojack bc she was not used to hard work, so doing the hardest job ever (child rearing) was not of interest to her. She was pampered and lazy. She wasn't independent enough to be a parent. She was just a kid
Beatrice wanted to use her college education for something else and didn't white children. She only married butterscotch because what else could she do ?
It doesn't justify the fact that she was a terrible mother. It just explains a lot. If it wasn't for that pregnancy, she would be doing anything else.
Glad to see this pointed out. Remember in Time’s Arrow, when Bojack is in his crib crying? Beatrice doesn’t even bother to pick him up and cradle him to try to help. This can read as her attachment issues of course, but I definitely always saw it was Beatrice failing to realize that yes, babies take work. And this time, she wouldn’t have a nanny or housekeeper to whisk her problems away.
I don't want to fault your theory, because its a good theory, and everyone should have a grasp on their own theories.
But in my opinion, Beatrice was used to hard work. She got a diploma when she was supposed to get a guy, in Josephs words. Faught to be educated, and faught to survive -- she was bullied and torn down the whole way through, but never gave up, and planned to further her education then persue a career in a time where women weren't supposed to work. She WANTED to be hard-working.
She wasn't lazy, she was stunted. When she gave birth to Bojack, she had to give her dreams up and go with a guy that cheated, ridiculed, and mocked her because she thought 'it would work'. She was reassured, it would work. But it didn't, obviously.
When her maid went off with Butterscotch, she wanted her to get an abortion as she was going through school to be a nurse. 'If I can finish school, and get a job. It will be okay'.
In my mind, Beatrice told herself that. Hence why her response was, 'Don't throw your dreams away for for this child. Don't let that man poision your life like he did mine. You are going to finish your schooling'.
@@esterbun9356 i think its spelt as fought
@@mimi-ll8xr My bad.
Man, I can never get over the scene where Vanessa Gecko gives PC the advice about being a mother.
So many mothers struggle with that feeling of, “I don’t feel the way I think a new mother is supposed to feel about her baby”, and I really loved Vanessa’s take on it.
“You’ve just picked up one of the most demanding jobs on the planet. It’s not always going to be this beautiful, idealized version of motherhood, and you’re rarely going to feel like you have things under control. All you can do is your damn best to raise that kid, and know that you did everything you could.”
Becoming a new parent is such a HUGE change in your life; it’s a lot to adjust to. I’ve had multiple parents tell me the first few weeks were so rough they felt like they were losing their fucking mind, but that over time, you do get the hang of things, and they get a lot better.
I love love love how Princess Caroline (who is amazing at everything she does almost naturally) has such a difficult time as a first time mom, when it's what she's always wanted. It's such a great way to show that the idea of something can be so different from the reality of it ❤ and I ABSOLUTELY love that Caroline is able to put her idea of what it should aside and allows herself to embrace the reality of motherhood and is finally able to truly bond with her baby 😭 Caroline is the best and deserves the best
PC holding Ruthie and making her giggle made me burst out into tears. PC is such an important character.
In defense of Joseph, many people had no idea that lobotomies were the horrible thing they were. It was touted as the cure all for any and every mental illness. Honey also said she wanted help and in that era it was seen as the best version of help. The way to keep people out of permanent stay in the asylum. Yes, he does use that against Beatrice later saying she’d end up like her mother. But before people knew it erased personalities, it was seen as help. He even asked her in the hallway “what has become of you?!” Because people genuinely didn’t know that is what would happen to people who got lobotomies. Anyways that’s my rant about lobotomies.
Watching your kids grow up or have fun is amazing but no matter how much you love them, having to do something 24/7 with only breaks that are preschedued will always be a pain. Even the dream job gets annoying at times. In the old days having the kids play outside and come when the street lights turn on was giving mom a much needed break.
No offense, but the way this is worded just sounds kind of strange to me. If Kids are hard work then why have bother having kids/caring for them in the first place? It's your responsibility as a mother to take care of your children. If you want a break get a baby sitter, organize your schedule, etc. Never blame your lack of time management on your kids, that's ridiculous.
@princessnazario2597 No offense, but what about the responsibilities of a father? You only mentioned mother.
@princessnazario2597 they never mentioned the kids being the problem, or parents neglecting their children, its important to acknowledge that parents also need a break and support, not to get rid of their children, but to have a time to care for themselves or other matters as well, this especially applies to single parents who usually can't afford a babysitter or daycare. Parenthood takes a village, unfortunately when the village sees something it doesn't like it tends to run away.
Can I just talk about how much I love that first scene in the whole series, Caroline and Gecko were such professional rivals yet when princess carolin needed real life advice on something that so little women have any help with or show vulnerability and she didn’t take advantage of that vulnerability but actually lifted her up, such a beautiful scene tbh
So what it comes down to it is that Princess Carolyn wanted a child very much and was willing to put in the work and chose a man who could love her and her adopted daughter the way a husband and father should. Beatrice made the mistake of marrying the wrong man and kept Bojack even though she didn’t want him in the first place. Even with the financial security given by her father she chose to wallow in her own misery and took it out on her son rather than put in any effort to change anything. PC’s upbringing for better or worse made her a fighter, Beatrice’s upbringing and one bad choice made her complacent.
I think the key difference between PC and Beatrice is choice and age (which again comes down to choice).
Beatrice didn’t get to choose motherhood. It was forced on her at a very young age. She didn’t get to choose her co-parent. She didn’t get to live any of her life before motherhood arrived.
PC got to live an extra 20 years before becoming a mother. She achieved many things, dated many people, made mistakes, worked hard, had fun.
Motherhood for PC was a battle. She had to REALLY want it to make it happen. She also had the resources and life experience to do so on her own, not stuck with a partner she didn’t know and didn’t like.
This is why reproductive freedom for women is so important. Beatrice should have had options aside from marry a guy she met once and having a baby at such a young age. Look at the child-rearing environment this forced pregnancy led to; who could think that’s ideal?
You might be forgetting the details, but she did *choose* to have BoJack. We see that she had a conversation with Butterscotch about whether to keep the baby, and considering her background the cost of an abortion wouldn't have been an issue. But her traumas and her desire to rebel made her choose to keep the child.
PC being the face of hard work and determination vs Beatrice Horseman being the face of laziness and entitlement.
Oof! Gotta love it!
The situation of pregnancy was so similar, except for one different, it actually happening! PC and the son of the family she worked for was an Intimacy between social classes that resulted in a pregnancy, which was the same as Beatrice. But Princess Carolyn didn’t go down that path, while Beatrice had. If PC hadn’t had that miscarriage, her life likely would have ended up strikingly similar to Beatrice’s. And I think Beatrice knows this, in the way she treats Henrietta
I think the big difference was that PC’s mom wasn’t trying to create a perfect version of PC. Sure, she still wasn’t a good mother, being an alcoholic and wanting to use her daughter’s pregnancy to secure her future, but she didn’t care as much about what PC did so long as she still got what she wanted out of her. But Joseph (and even Honey, when she was sane) tried to groom Beatrice into the perfect debutante daughter from a young age. She wasn’t allowed to eat ice cream because it’s “boys’ food,” she wasn’t supposed to lift anything heavy because she’d “rupture her uterus,” she wasn’t supposed to read because it would take development away from her breasts and hips, and worst of all, she wasn’t allowed to cry because, “crying is stupid,” and Joseph threatened to have Beatrice lobotomized if she did cry. And when Beatrice rebelled against that, she ended up with a selfish husband and a son she wasn’t supposed to love for fear of being hurt if something ever happened to him. Of course she was miserable. No matter what she did, she couldn’t do anything right. She lost her spirit and was left with no cause to use her intelligence because she believed that things would get worse no matter what she did. PC , on the other hand, was able to become stronger because she had to grow up so fast to take of her mother who was lazy and negligent where Beatrice’s parents were overly controlling and perfectionist. It doesn’t make what her mother did right, but something positive did come out of it in that PC had the gumption to be a leader because she had a lot more practice than most people did. She was also kinder to her mother in the way that children generally are, which is why she tried to make Bojack a better person for as long as she could. That says a lot about her positive traits just as much as it does about Bojack’s negative traits. She just had to find the right person who will give back to her just as much, which she eventually does with Judah. Judah was even mature and patient enough to wait until PC worked through her own issues and was ready for him.
I don't think Joseph lobotomized Honey to avoid her emotions. I think, to an extent, he truly wanted to make her better, and lobotomy was presented as the cure-all. I think he really loved her.
Joseph is a great example of someone who does all of the wrong things for the right reasons. For example burning Beatrice’s things after she contracts scarlet fever. We can see that it greatly traumatized her and is the reason she kept Bojack, but he did it so that the disease wouldn’t be spread. Joseph having honey lobotomized is him doing what he thought would be the “cure”.
I love how Vanessa Gecko can be cutthroat but still respect PC. She doesn't pull punches because she expects PC to rise above them, but she ends up not being villainous at all. She really is exactly the kind of rival PC needed
ASTONISHING VIDEO, MATE!!! Absolutely adored this contrasting analytical essay's format and you delivered each point masterfully!!! ✨✨✨
Love the contrast between these two; both were affected by their household ideals and the trauma they brought, both initially gave the opportunity a go… but while Beatrice quickly detached from the idea at the moment she realized it was not what she desired and decided to escape from it the only way she knew (by her vices), gave up way before she even started, which makes the situation even more depressing as she was pressured by it since the start, resulting on her blaming her poor decision making on poor Bojack, never taking the opportunity to at least try; meanwhile, PC had the exact opposite conviction, she tried endlessly up to the point she began to think she was worthless, that she was "blowing it"… but instead of giving up, she was committed to fulfilling her dream and making worth every opportunity, so when it came, even if she felt struggling and doubts began to flood her head, she just kept forward and took her own pace, eventually and rapidly succeeding after every failed attempt and the immeasurable pain they delivered since contrary to Beatrice, she truly loved her child and was willing to sacrifice anything for her (heck, even taking her biggest rival's advice, which was overly helpful), and in expense, becoming a SPECTACULAR mother… immense Kudos for PC!!!
💖💖💖
I actually felt like PC with a rescue cat. He was literally knocking on heaven's door so he needed surgery and constant 24hr care for the first 4 months we had him. We also had to keep him separate from our resident cat in a one bedroom apartment whilst allowing them to get to know each other's smells etc. His scent kept changing with all the vet visits and meds so for our cat it was 4 month's of who TF is in my house?! I knew I loved him but I didn't have time to feel it and I felt so guilty that I wasn't feeling what I wanted to feel. It's 4 years on and rest assured we've made up for lost time, he is my big baby boy (despite being 12 now) and I felt such relief when I got that warm fuzzy feeling finally. If you're willing to put in the work, that's the love speaking, it just doesn't look how we imagined.
Indeed. That was the difference especially since Beatrice never seemed to be a mother, let alone put in the work.
Though as a side note do you think you would do a video on Sarah Lynn's or a video about Joseph Sugarman and toxic masculinity ?
No, it’s not okay to just take care of your child because it’s your job.
It’s not okay to just “Keep them alive” or see them as a project.
Your child WILL notice, and it will break their heart.
A child’s life revolves around their parents and their view of themselves is 100% based on how much you love them.
It genuinely shocks me how many parents can't understand this.
I'm 31 years old and it's taken nearly 5 years of therapy to undo the damage of a parent "just showing up" and making me feel unwanted growing up. And I'm still working through it too. I genuinely believe people should be given reversible birth control like vasectomies etc. and they must go through a vetting process to have a child, you have to be financially emotionally physically and mentally capable of raising an entire human being. So many broken people out here breeding like rabbits continuing the cycle of neglect and abuse.
@@shirokun002
I’m sorry about that.
As for the other part..I mean, I see what you mean, but I don’t trust the government to decide who will be a good parent.
They could exclude you based on your political or religious beliefs, claiming that having beliefs contrary to theirs makes you unstable.
Besides, if we forced all boys to get vasectomies at 18, that could be really traumatic as well.
And they’re not fully reversible as your fertility will never be the same after that.
And who would pay for it? I don’t think people should have to pay for a surgery they don’t even want, but I don’t think the taxpayer should have to pay for it either.
Besides, what about side effects? All surgeries are a little dangerous, as people can have adverse reactions to anesthetics.
Choosing to take that risk is one thing, but having it forced on you is another.
Besides, many people don’t want to have sex outside of marriage. Forcing that surgery on them seems really unfair.
Besides, forced sterilization of poor and handicapped people has happened before and it wasn’t good.
Again, it might be considered temporary but there are some permanent effects, which seems really unfair to people who didn’t consent to it.
I think instead we should provide more education and resources to parents who might need a little more pushing in the right direction.
It’s not perfect, but forcing vasectomies on every young man in the country just doesn’t make sense to me.
Actually, it seems really dangerous and tyrannical.
@@shirokun002 I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I'm glad you're getting better, that's... just awful. Ooh, but I'm proud of you for the therapy thing! I don't think I could set foot into a therapist's office, I am far, faaaar too scared XD.
@@tell-me-a-story- almost like this was the same thought process a certain dictator from many years ago who ended up causing a world war thought- huh-
I never saw that she went to the front yard to play 😧 and I watched the show a million time, you put the light on so much details!!
another parallel i find interesting is both PC and beatrice going to university, but while PC leaves to build a new life from scratch (and put the hard work in to even get there), Beatrice simply returned home.
Excited for the vid! I would really love to see a Guy and Dianne video! I love them❤
To keep with the theme of Mothers, I’d love to see you do a video on Bloberta from Moral Orel.
I feel like a lot of people don’t give Bloberta enough credit, she grew up in a society that only valued women for being a checkpoint in live to pass, just to marry and have children as that’s the Christian thing to do. It’s clear she never really had any close connections or people to love her, except for her father and Jesus, both of whom are depicted as being drinkers but still kind. I truly don’t think it’s fair that so many people point to Bloberta and blame her for ruining clays life. She influenced him, but she had no idea of knowing the man he’d become because of it, and he could’ve easily not drunk his drink or stopped drinking earlier in the night but he didn’t; and his total lack of self control when the slightest bit of pressure is applied is a ongoing trait of his (When Ms Censordoll seduces him, him getting easily angered, trying to fight at the bar when everyone just wants him to stop) so I don’t think it’s entirely fair to Bloberta.
it’s sort of like introducing your friend to someone, and they start dating , but when the relationship turns toxic they blame you for introducing them for the first place and any lifelong consequences they may have. Just because you introduced someone to something doesn’t make you the cause of their addiction and make you the ruiner of their lives, they made plenty of decisions along the way on their own for that.
I completely love this parallel. I also think there must be one between Diane and Butterscotch and her book of essays and his great american novel. He though his book would mean something to society as she thought her book would mean something for people like her. I'd love a video on that
I was told that trauma is like a snow mountain. If you climb it and reach the top, you’ve overcome it. But if you fail to, it will bury you in snow and leave you cold.
PC overcame so much and she reached the top. Beatrice barely even bothered and well, we all know how her story ended. 😢
I love how the show paints everyone as a Broken person rather than a bad person as a lot of things in life are morally grey rather than black and white
That moment with PC hits me so hard. There are times I imagine how great it would be to be a father, but I'm worried that I would be terrible at it and/or have these kinds of feelings.
I must indeed appreciate this.
Thank you.
°~•.☆.•~°
It takes a healthy person to make a healthy couple.
A healthy couple to make a healthy family.
At 42 and my partner being 51 still eager to be parents but not stupid in getting there.
Children only get one childhood I'm going to make sure mine get a damn good one.
i really like your bojack videos because i feel theyre the most levelheaded and well rounded deconstructions of the show ive seen on youtube. you somehow manage to both holistically understand and carefully dissect every single character, it's super interesting and entertaining!
How did i never see the harsh similarities that made them so different... The show never ceases to amaze me. Many complexities
beatrice and PC both even give advice to a pregnant woman in a similar situation! beatrice takes hollyhock from henrietta, not wanting her to make the same "mistake." in PC's case, at first she tries to pitch herself as the best candidate for parenting sadie's baby. then after strib proposes to sadie, PC tries to talk her out of it. but eventually she tells sadie she can do whatever she wants, but it has to be for her own sake and no one else's
One major difference is pc couldn’t have kids of her own so now that life threw her a bone she doesn’t want to waste it
What Beatrice said was what my mom said...when she was drunk. (And I was around Bojack's age)
I love they show princess Carolyn being humble enough to accept good advice from Vanessa.
i think one of the most heart wrenching scenes in the whole show is when bojack drinks for the very first time.
when he’s just a kid, and his parents are both passed out after a party. he takes a swig, then goes to curl up with beatrice. and he *smiles*. despite how cruel beatrice was, despite her very obvious lack of love for bojack, he still sought out her warmth. that always gets to me.
i think its so cute that pc named her daughter ruthie after vanessa said “its a ruthless one”
Did anyone notice that in the scenes showing Beatrice giving birth she's in the room alone. Makes you wonder what butterscotch was doing while she was giving birth and if that was one of the staets to her harsh realization that what she accepted isn't what she expected
How my mum described falling pregnant with me after my parents honeymoon;
“I thought I had a blocked ovary but the doctor said it’ll be unblocked by late July, you’re pregnant Mrs blank. I cried and cried because my life was over, but I decided I wasn’t going to let this baby ruin my life. Whatever I want to do, I’m doing it. And the baby will just have to deal with it”
When I said I was leaving they said “you want to sleep rough? Go ahead. I’ll give you a lift to the train station, that suitcase looks heavy”
If you’re waiting for “the thing” that finally makes your parents respect you as a human being, it’s not coming, you were never going to be “enough”. My conception was the first of my betrayals and she never forgave me for it.
It’s been 10 years of no-contact bliss, I highly recommend it 💖
Yay, finally :D
Glad to see the video come up soon!
One other suggestion I could make, if you don't mind taking it from series other than BoJack, it could be interesting to inspect the case of Garret Miller from Extreme Ghosbusters and his overarching theme of 'belonging'. From his extreme sports ex-buddies (who just turned out to be 'extremists'), to becoming a professional sportsman, to being recognized as a writer, to a 'future' episode where he's the only one not recognized in a Great Ghost War, to being ousted as unlucky because of the curse, to his fear being pretty much being left alone. There's a lot to unpack there.
Or Quantum Leap - Sam Beckett's selfless crusade through time, where he leaps from body to body to changes events to a better result, wondering why he can't bounce out. One, that leaves him no choice from righting the wrongs, because of his nature... Precisely because he chooses to do better by humanity, as he could've lept out a hundred times, but didn't.
(Actually I'm an avid movie/TV watcher and overall media buff when it comes to older stuff, so I can throw in suggestions from older TV shows and movies (if you do those at all ;o) which would be interesting to figure, because there are things that a lot of people just don't cover, like XGB or Quantum Leap I've pointed above)
I LOVE quantum leap!!!!!
@@peggydragonell9590 everybody should watch it :3
Beatrice is as guilty as her father, just as much as Bojack is as guilty as his mother. Everyday we have to step out and say to ourselves 'are we going to be better' because the world is not kind- it is not peaceful, nor is it easy, it has never been easy, every era all across the world has suffered its own issues. But we have to make that choice, we have to make that decision, WE HAVE TO DECIDE if we are going to be better. That isn't saying its easy, it never is, but its up to us do what we can to make our lives better.
I wanted to punch my monitor listening to this. I had a similar life. Thank you. I hope I grow from this.
I would say it's very different, Carolyn was responsible for her entire life and wanted to make something more of herself, Beatrice was heavily traumatised and came from an era where men could easily control women and she let her trauma make her into a horrible person.
Not gonna lie. When i just found out about Bojack horseman. The first head Cannon come in my head is all the anthropomorphic animals were what Bojack see from his own point of view since he's on drugs and drunk. Its possible he hallucinating most of the time.
There's an anime like this, (something) Taxi, where bc of the main character's trauma he sees everyone (including himself) as animal people but it's not revealed till the end. Really good series with a compelling mystery and set in current day.
OddTaxi- fantastic anime!
@PosiTVty. Ah yes, that was it thank you! It's just been awhile since I'd seen it, but I enjoyed it a lot
It makes sense tbh, it's sort of like Night in the Woods where a popular theory is that all the animal characters are just from the protagonists point of view and the different types of animals are how she sees them
@@ploonette222 it is? I use to come across the game tho but I don't know about the lore of the game. That's great,also I love the art style of the game,it has animal features characters but it didn't look uncanny.
What I think is interesting is they had opposite moms too. Honey Sugarman loved her kids so much that she deeply grieved her son's death. she had traditional values but was kind and loving prior to the labotomy. If her husband had been there for her she could have been a semi-good role model for Beatrice. princess Caroline's mom barely cared about her kids and was pretty okay being a non traditional single mom. Beatrice didn't have a woman building her and the father she had made her cold and normalized mistreatment. Princess Caroline's mom was not perfect but allowed her to venture into the world and do better for herself. PC's mom became better for prioritizing her kids. Beatrice's mom became broken from prioritizing her kids.
I missed the part about how their childhoods were similar. One's got emotionally unavailable parents, the other has needy mother. One doesn't have to work for anything, the other does her mother's work.
The circumstances that they became mothers was drastically different. B's child is accident and forces her get married before she is ready to a man she quickly starts to dispise. PC has fertility problems. She knows she wants a child by the time she has ruthie.
7:31 I love the detail of the kangaroo couple shoving the baby into the mother's pouch.
your voice is so similar to Rutabaga´s is crazy
I just realized, did she name the baby Ruthie because of the speech Vanessa Gekko about the job of being a mom being ruthless? Am I reaching? Cause before then she was calling her “untitled princess Carolyn project” or something like that if I’m remembering correctly
It's also from a daydream pc has frequently of a descendant of hers telling her story/ looking up to her. In that episode she was named Ruthie like PC's soon to be daughter
But I like the ruthless joke too because this shows full of puns
i really think you should make a video on angela bcs her one quote about life being meaningless but it also being so important gets me everytime!
Beatrice's backstory is actually my favourite backstory ever. But I think that the comparison between these two characters doesn't hold up.
There's something I've always wondered why after Honey's failed lobotomy why Joseph didn't just quietly send her to an asylum or living facility Kennedy's father did that with Rose Kennedy after her failed lobotomy if Joseph had done that he could have remarried like many men of his time would and try it again for a son with his new wife which wouldn't have been uncommon
I think it's because in a way he loved his wife so much that he couldn't bear the thought of sending her away and I think he genuinely saw labotomy as a way to "fix" her even if we know nowadays that lobotomies can lead to all sorts of problems
I think he also didn't want more kids because he didn't want to get attached again. He had Beatrice.
I think the difference between Beatrice and Princess Caroline is the environment in which they grew up. Princess Carolyn literally had to solve other people's problems all her life, so she matured early and developed patience and hard work. Princess Carolyn is really strong, life made her that way, unlike Beatrice, who did not have problems of this kind. I think besides the fact that she wasn't ready for a child in her life, she took out all her anger and unfulfilled ambitions on Bojack. I think the fact that she always blamed her son for her problems was a defensive reaction under which she hid all her grievances and regrets. Beatrice didn't even try to change anything, she just sank deeper and deeper into her unhappiness because she never tried to take life into her own hands. I know that everything I wrote is no different from what was said in the video, but I really wanted to speak about these two
I wonder if Beatrice would have been different if Bojack was a girl
I wouldn't expect her to be a perfect doting mother all of a sudden
But I wonder if she would have seen herself more in a daughter and considered the difficulties of being a girl
Idk if the statement Beatrice never worked hard is accurate. At least in college she seems to have. I think it was less that she never had to work hard and more that every effort that she ever made was brutally devalued to the point that she didn’t see the point in putting effort in. Every single thing she ever got emotionally invested in got destroyed so emotionally distancing herself was a way to keep safe. Her brutality towards Bojack was in a really jacked up way her way of showing maternal instinct. In a twisted logic kind of way if he was something she didn’t love and she hardened him to the world early he wouldn’t have the devastatingly tragic life she had. The main difference between Beatrice and Princess Caroline is the duration of their suffering. Princess Caroline suffered but she had moments of mental respite where she experienced success and positive feedback. Her mom while abusive did finally make a choice that put her interests at heart by handing her the acceptance letter. Beatrice didn’t get that. Beatrice went down a one way soul crushing assembly line right into a trash compactor. Her parents never deviated from awful enough to give her an opportunity to experience something good. No one in her life did. Not her parents, not her partner and not even her son. The choices we make are our own but people can’t make choices that they don’t know exist. Beatrice is an example of how non-stop trauma fast tracks a person into more trauma and into being people who create trauma. Trauma is a treadmill set at top speed and you have to stop a treadmill so people can get off safely or they’ll keep running until they pass out. Princess Caroline got those chances to get off and regroup. Beatrice didn’t.
As a non American, I 'd like a full list of all the media and pop culture reference in BoJack Horseman
You sound a little bit like rutabaga which makes this video more fun to watch
yk one thing this made me realize is the "lead necklace causes PC's miscarrages" theory is wrong. PC miscarried before she wore the necklace for a long time-- her mother also wore it while being extremely fertile. so there.
Her mum never wore it. It was costume jewellery she got from a store
@ she was shown wearing it before she gave it to pc
@ she didn’t wear it long term is what I meant to say
Ypu talk about how Joseph Sugarman took away Honey's personality and all i could think of is those women who lose themselves in marriage and kids. Suddenly not someone with all their interests or wants theyre just a wife and mother
Like PC's mom and Cooper tries to destroy PC's personality but failed because ot PC's miscarriage
Honestly i was scared that PC would be like Beatrice and get the baby but then push all of the responsibilities of caring for her onto Tod.
At first it seemed like she was and i was relieved to see that not only did she find her balance of work and mom but Todd basically forced himself into that role.
If there's anything more tragic than the Story of Beatrice Horseman in this show I don't know what it is
She loses her older brother and mother at a young age and Joseph Sugarman was barely a competent father an obsessive workaholic who barely spent time with his family
Honey's lobotomy leaves her as less than a shell who then plants the horrible message in Beatrice's young mind that everyone she loves will leave her so love is pointless a toxic mindset that turns her into a beyond horrible mother
Oh god simply the opening.
I'm seen. In a cartoon.
i'd like to imagine if beatrice's father wasn't so corrupted by the toxic masculinity in the 40s-50s maybe beatrice would have been more of a better parent and cared for bojack then equalising in bojack not being a total dick-head and a jerk but thats just me it breaks my heart tho when the only scene when she cared for him was either when she had dementia or when she was asleep and bojack curled up to her.
Thank you
Poor beatrice 😢
I think Beatrice should have married Corbin, I even bet he would have raised Bojack as his own son. Maybe Bojack could have had a better life. 🤔
3:46 “…or at least the connection to it”
"As an american man, I don't know how to handle a woman's emotions. And I will never learn"? Dude! The Sugarman dad told beatrice not to read books because it is kinda bad for women, therefore he reads, he never accidentally read fiction about a guy lover hugging his love? Or anyone hugging in fiction when someone cries? How about hugging in general? A squeeze of a hand there? *confusion*
About the thumbnail, it is not the same start, princess Caroline wanted to have a child, not having an immediate bond is not the same, Beatrice didn't wanted that pregnancy, not to mention PC was born with nothing, not even a real caring family, Cooper shows more care for her than her mother, meanwhile Beatrice grew rich, with a loving mother, father (loving for his time) and specially his brother, she never needed to struggle, even after getting pregnant, his father wanted to do everything he could to make her comfortable, yet, even if their backstories where the same, even if both were trustfund kids with no money struggles that didn't loved their children immediately, one fact would remain, PC wanted the baby, Beatrice didn't, and that is the fundamental difference, love can be built if you want, love is both, an emotion and a choice, and it is important to recognize that, because many movies make it seem like something that it is not.
Yeah, Bojack's dad should have had the soul searching that PC did before becoming a parent. The fathers are never talked about enough. Bojack's mom signed up to be a parent with her spouse, and PC decided she would be a single mom. If Beatrice decided to be a single mom, would she have done better? Probably. Incompetent men like Bojack's dad and Grandfather are nothing but dead weight on a woman's happiness.
I like this, you enred my sub!! Very good!!
That's a great video. And I thought I was the only one who compared PC with Bea once I saw PC's past with her mother.
Despite being from different socioeconomical status and family, both were going to held a heiress status (one due to birth and the other due to get married with a heir), had a fling with a guy, got pregnant and their lives took opposite ways because one became a mother (due to trauma and own desiciones) and the other didn't (because she couldn't biologically). It is like desiring the other's luck: Bea would have desired she could have miscarried like PC so she could be free and do whatever she wanted, even becoming a CEO of her family's enterprise or a hypocritical activist; and PC would have desired she could have a baby in the natural way (although her first pregnancy would have led to dire consequences in her life and her future baby).
And it is ironical, or common, that both want what the other has while they can't appreciate what they really have nor see what the other has suffered for having the life the other wanted. However, the series have pointed out that women's lives are better without babies although that could be because both have different personalities (Bea became a bitter woman, while PC was going to be a ruined woman if the marriage was going to happen, and that in the end, PC got everything: a successful career and a family even though not in the conventional way).
Basicly the person that got everything handed and the person that got nothing handed.