Hollyhock's place in season 6 is complicated, but she conveys a very necessary message; family or not, you have the right to cut toxic people out of your life.
@@nanaki1990blox The second last time they meet before she learns about Arizona he has her fence hopping to run away from the cops, 2 eps after that the Gina incident happens. She must've heard or seen the videos at some point, Bojack demonstrates himself as an unhinged pill popper. Pair that with everything from the interview why would she not be nervous about her relationship with him? Bojack doesn't act like an adult that people younger than him can truly be safe around and Hollyhock has the rationality to realize that.
@@billqiu4692 BoJack would never hurt Hollyhock, his sister of all people. Gina is the only person he's ever physically hurt. Not Diane, not Princess Carolyn, no one
Just a thought about Butterscotch, some people think is a bit dissapointing how the show never dwells in his past, but I think is part of his irony. He always wanted to be a famous writer who wrote the best novel of all times, but he just ended as a loser with a grandiosity complex with a very pathetic death. Not even Bojack remembers his face during the penultimate episode where Butterscotch doesn't have his face or his personality at all. Even the audience never gets to know anything about him apart of flashbacks. It was meant to always being unknown.
There was a theory I heard once that makes Butterscotch a little more tragic/sympathetic that said that his book was meant to be dedicated to Bojack as a way of showing his love for his son. It makes the failure of the book parallel his failure as a father to Bojack, and correct me if I'm wrong but Bojack never actually read the book so he never would have known.
I think it also represents real life really well bc sometimes you just don’t know people’s past, you only have their actions to judge, and you can’t know each detail that happened in their life before making a decision about them. Bojack represents many other abused children that never got an explanation for their parents’ horrid actions, and we really get to see their perspective. It also shows that no matter what his past was, what he did was never okay and it has real consequences on the present and future.
@@Mehhhhhhhh and even if we had learned about his past, it wouldn’t have changed anything he would still be a narc loser who was too egotistical, too delusional and self absorbed that he destroyed every relationship in his life for some book he never even got to finish, it’s honestly quite bizarre how someone so consumed by their dream wasn’t able to achieve said dream
@mehh * As a writer myself, I can say that it is possible that was his book, but at the same time, he worked on his book for years. Over time, it may have changed from being a story about a working class man to a story about his son, or rather, his perception of his son. I want to think that even Butterscotch has more to him, a kind side that was never shown beyond his and Beatrice’s honeymoon phase. He was likely very much like BoJack, where he self sabotaged and pushed everybody away, while still craving that love from others.
Whenever someone questions why Hollyhock cut Bojack off I always say imagine if the show was called "Hollyhock" or if Hollyhock was your friend and all you knew about Bojack came from her prospective, and from her prospective Bojack is a self destructive mess with an extensive history of toxic relationships with young girls.
This! BoJack is the protagonist of his own story so we see it mostly through his eyes, but understanding the persepctive of the other characters makes the show even more impactful, and it makes their decisions make sense.
Even with the broad perspective we get as viewers of the show...I can't say that description is too far off. Like, Bojack isn't some evil predator monster, but his actions are....yeah...
@@callmeobsequious honestly this is another one of those important messages this show gives to the audience…. you don’t know everyone’s story you don’t always know why people do the things they do… sometimes it’s best to truly try to understand them and where they come from, but other times… like for hollyhock… it is best to walk away, both for yourself and for them, even if you love them and theyre your family whether blood or not.
Honestly you don't even have to think about what Hollyhooks perspective is, Bojack is pretty awful even from his own perspective. She was lucky that Bojack thought she was his real daughter, I mean having a daughterly relationship didn't stop him from sleeping with Sarah Lynn. And even when Bojack really tried to be a good person for Hollyhook, he did so many things wrong and it was just a matter of time until his wrongdoings hit Hollyhook.
This is the first I’m hearing of people criticising Hollyhock for cutting Bojack out of her life. I’m pretty surprised anyone holds that decision against her, she has more than enough reason to do so.
It’s because the audience is given more context from BoJack’s perspective and we see things that Hollyhock doesn’t know about. I think the people who do hold it against her are expecting her to have the extra context without realizing that she is entirely justified on her end and what she does know. Part of what makes BoJack Horseman such a great show is how well it addresses different perspectives of a person or situation. Hollyhock doesn’t see any of BoJack’s growth that we as an audience have, so it makes her decision look extra harsh upon first viewing. If the audience only saw Hollyhock’s version of events, I don’t think anyone would blame her.
Unfortunately from what I seen, it's very common. I saw a whole video saying she was selfish and should of stayed because of family or comments on the official bojack instagram cursing her out for cutting him off
@@bignerd7934 Jesus, were those people even paying attention to the show!? Staying "because of family" is what fucked up Honey, Beatrice, Bojack *and* Hollyhock!
@@bignerd7934 Sad thing is that throughout the show this has been shown that staying in contact with family BECAUSE they’re family is toxic for a person’s own mental health and it’s been shown with both Bojack and Dian (Bojack’s being throughout the show and Dian being an episode). I understand that seeing his POV may make people more sympathetic towards him but when watching this show you have to think “is what he’s doing right?”. At least that’s what I think-
Hollyhock was completely in the right for distancing herself from Bojack. Assuming she watched the interviews, she had 2 different sources stating that Bojack has a history of being creepy around young women, and she has no obligation to be around a person who makes her uncomfortable. It must’ve been a tough decision for her to make. She deserves the W
Absolutely. Hollyhock saw the red flags and immediately removed herself from the situation. Good thing too, cause I have no doubt Bojack’s subsequent spiral after the interviews would have absolutely made him do something stupid to Hollyhock if she had been around him. The best thing she ever did was stay away from him.
its a complciated situation though i feel that.... she should have realized she was a lot safer with bojack? she lived with him for several months after all and the harm she endured was not from HIS actions at all, but the actions of his mother. true they had some weird escapades after but she isn't one against weird escapades. He kinda... said it himself in a weird way.
@@taddad2641 but she wasn’t safe around Bojack. Bojack has a history of being creepy around young women and Hollyhock is a young woman. Sure the overdosing wasn’t Bojack’s fault but don’t forget about all the danger he put her in when she visited him in season 5. Hollyhock is completely justified in feeling uncomfortable around Bojack and she doesn’t owe him anything. I’ve been in similar situations to her, where I’d have to cut certain people out of my life because of their behavior that made me uncomfortable.
@@taddad2641 Absolutely not. There's no 'she should have realized' against a teenager. Bojack had a track record, a horrible one. She did the right thing distancing herself. In real life, a teenage girl distancing herself from someone like Bojack is the absolute right move.
@@squill9446 His relationship with women had nothing to do with her since she is his haft sister. Holli just was getting brainwashed with Gender Studies nonsense & other college stuff. Besides she heard of a man at a party that Bojack "forced" his girlfriend to drink until she passed out & ended up in a hospital. (Tho in an older ep showed that Bojack didn't force anyone to drink, it was the girl choice). Bojack's mother drugged her, but it wasn't Bojack's fault. Bojack tried to change at the end & tried to be more involved in her life & tried to be a better older brother. Until the interview where his past hunts him. His personal romantic life shouldn't be her concern. He was never forced into any of those women. Besides they were women not girls. I hate how people treat women like children.
@@Spongebrain97 I like to think that they can, in this world no one is perfect, and where bojack ends the show he has worked through most of his major issues and comes across as a pretty grounded, self conscious and normal version of himself.
@@kitnal4143 i think it's a way better ending if hollyhock and diane separate themselves from bojack's life forever. it's what the healthy thing in real life would be, and giving his shitty actions consequences is important
People hold Hollyhock cutting BoJack out of her life against her? _Really?_ That's completely wild, man, no way. She didn't owe BoJack shit. I love how it was handled. It suits the show and, in the end, I think it was a good decision for Hollyhock. She can reconnect with him if she wants, but she doesn't owe him that and it's not like it was dirty of her to cut him off or something. Sheesh.
I never liked Hollyhock personally, so I was a little salty that she couldn't just be straight with him , and did it in a LETTER after basically cannonballing into his life. Peter definitely exaggerated the story about what happened in New Mexico. Not saying that everything Bojack did then wasnt irresponsible and messed up, but he did not "force" them to drink alcohol. They were already drinking. Should he have bought them bourbon? No, but it wasn't like he just did it out of the blue. She's not obligated to do anything for Bojack, but it was kind of cowardly the way she did it
@@JaneDoe-gu5sb But the Pete Repeat story isn’t what caused her to cut contact. It did cause some strain on their relationship, but she didn’t actually go no-contact until she found out that BoJack waited 17 minutes to call an ambulance after Sarah Lynn OD’d and learned the extent of his inappropriate behavior toward Sarah Lynn. And she had every reason to cut things off over a letter. She’s already experienced how manipulative BoJack can be at times, she probably didn’t want to have to listen to his excuses. Cutting toxic people out is HARD, and it was probably hard on her to make that decision, so it seems a bit unfair to call her cowardly for going about it in a way that was probably the best for her.
@@JaneDoe-gu5sb pete's story didnt make her cut contact. it was just a red flag to her and it strained their relationship, but that alone wasn't enough fr her to leave. it was the fact that he caused the death of a young woman who he took advantage of. she shouldn't have to be faced to face with someone who does that. DO NOT say its cowardly to do that by letter.
@@JaneDoe-gu5sb Okay, first of all, that's not why she cut him off. She cut him off because of his history taking advantage of younger women. Sure, Biscuits was wrong about the Jameson situation-BoJack was genuinely trying to help her-but she also got the Penny situation _wrong_ because she didn't get the context that he almost slept with her. She sure got the context or him sleeping with his TV daughter while she was addicted, though! And what BoJack did was irresponsible and messed up. Full stop. What would he have told Hollyhock had he the chance to explain himself? "I didn't _force them_ to drink the alcohol! I just got them more, stronger alcohol! And when one of them got alcohol poisoning, what was I supposed to do besides leave her at the hospital with her boyfriend and coerce him into staying silent about it?" Which, by the way, _that_ wasn't cowardly, but not wanting to speak face to face with an overtly toxic person is? Okay. I know if it was me, I would have done the same thing-I HAVE done the same to toxic people in my life (albeit not through letters, via texts and blocking features, but same difference), because I knew leaving the door open at all would inevitably just lead me back to them. Plus, again, considering that she had not only recently heard what had happened in NM (or at least part of it, lol), but was now seeing evidence that he had a less than savory history with younger women (again, acknowledging the Jameson story was inaccurate, but also acknowledging the Penny story was inaccurate in that it didn't talk about him-and I must emphasize-almost sleeping with a girl who was Hollyhock's age at the time)? Yeah, no, I wouldn't be having a conversation with him fave to face. I wouldn't feel safe. BoJack is not at all the victim in Hollyhock cutting him off, and Hollyhock was not cowardly. In fact, I'd argue that that was brave as shit of her.
I've watched Bojack twice and it honestly shocked me to see the weight difference! Only when it was pointed out did I see the difference, and I literally rewinded this video just to confirm that I wasn't seeing things!! it's so crazy (impressive, even) that they would put that detail in!
People get so pissed that Hollyhock cut Bojack out of her life. They claimed he loved her when he couldn't even say it when she said it to him. We see how Bojack treats the women he claims to love/care about, and she dodged a bullet. I'm sad we didn't get to see her anymore, but she did the right thing.
Nah, Bojack did love her. And at first Hollyhock was excited to know about her birth family, like many adopted kids. But then she realised that she didn't *know* him, not really, and he had this long chequered past that she wasn't comfortable with.
It's not that she cut him out, that's her decision to make. It's how she did it and refused to talk to Bojack about the allegations that Pete made at the party in New York. Someone mind you, that was a complete stranger to her. She's a teenage girl, living in this time period, her behaviour makes sense from a narrative standpoint, but that doesn't mean she's not naive, childish, and nonconfrontational, like people around her age are right now. What she did was still wrong, and while the hard decision she made should be understood, how she went about it I'll never support.
@@scrdart we literally never see what's in the letter she wrote. She very well could have brought up what Pete said to her, and Bojack couldn't even try to defend himself because Pete was right.
@@scrdart He was constantly calling her and calling her even though she was clearly screening his calls. If she'd talked to him in person, he wouldn't have listened to her, gotten defensive, and guilt-tripped her like he did at the start of the second half of season six.
In the second interview with Braxby, the revelation that Bojack waited to call the paramedics for 17 minutes and him saying Sarah Lynn was like a daughter to him is probably the biggest reason why Hollyhock cut him off. At first, he loved her like a daughter and even after learning about her actual parentage, the age gap still had some effect on their dynamic. The fact that Sarah Lynn wasn’t “like those other women” and that he loved her like a daughter YET he still waited 17 minutes to call 911 is probably a breaking point. Because even though Bojack loved Sarah Lynn like a daughter, that love wasn’t strong enough to trump Bojack’s selfishness and fear of taking responsibility for his actions. Bojack loved Hollyhock, but Hollyhock doesn’t know if that love would be conditional if something like her overdose happened again. I wonder if a part of her wonders that if Bojack was alone and was somewhat aware of what was happening to her, would he have also waited before calling the ambulance? Especially since her overdose could potentially have been fatal. That aspect of the interview feels ignored a lot when discussing Hollyhock’s motivation to cut Bojack off.
Agreed, thinking this exact same thing. Edit: Worse thought is that if this is what Bojack did with SarahLynn, his “daughter”… Hollyhock being just his sister now. Oof
This was such a great breakdown of her character. I'll never understand why people criticize Hollyhock. She did what she needed to to protect herself. It's not like she took the decision lightly. As someone who had to cut off their own family for similar reasons, I identify with her a lot.
Hollyhock leaving Bojack’s life was the single hardest pill the show ever asked me to swallow. I too would like to hope they could someday reconcile, it is one of the core tennents of Bojack that nothing ever really last forever. Usually that means life, fame, or love, but maybe it could mean seperation too? I dunno. Still, ballsy as hell to stop where they did. It’s a painful choice and I have nothing but respect for it.
@@tidepodpadthai2633 bojack "seventeen minutes" "i am the biggest victim at the hands of bojack horseman" " 'don't' choke women" horseman did nothing wrong???
Thank you for what you say at the end about how Hollyhock cutting Bojack out was the right choice. It's maddening how many people act like she is wrong for doing this. I say this in reference to one particular youtuber; cutting toxic people from your life is _not_ cowardice. It's bravery. Hollyhock is _brave_ and I'm so glad you see it that way.
I didn't know people that people think Hollyhock was wrong for this. Her response makes total sense. I greatly appreciate Johnny. He always handles these topics with care and respect.
@@BrokenWings122 oof wait till you see the Penny and Diane videos. Pretty much all his videos of the women Bojack horseman characters (except Sara Lynn) are sus
@@BrokenWings122 to be fair, he said hollyhock did make the RIGHT choice for herself but according to shady doorags, she should've at least got to know the full context from Bojack instead of listening to a 3rd party before making that decision. However I still disagree with him. It's easy to get frustrated as an audience, but if we were in Hollyhock's shoes, I understand that she would be terrified of approaching Bojack. No matter what the circumstances are,Hollyhock made the right choice for her own safety.
While I do think Hollyhuck brought out a better side of Bojack, she had every right to decide she didn’t want him in her life anymore. She’s similar to Herb in the sense they’re both very grounded characters and had a tough decision to make in regards to Bojack, but they made the ones that was best for them
From Bojack’s perspective, Hollyhock cutting him out of her life was a massive wake up call. I feel like it was the best thing for both her and Bojack at the time. Of course it’s sad that Bojack eventually relapsed but I feel like his separation from Hollyhock will put him on the right track in the future. Or he’ll Bojack things up again, actually the latter is most likely
I honestly want to know more about Hollyhock. Her moment talking about the "voices" by the pool just hit so hard for me and a lot of people. She was right to distance herself from someone incredibly toxic like BoJack, even though he's working through that.
@@casjordan5756 he was in a weirdly better place in jail than he was beforehand, better than he had been in years. but he is aware of his capacity to 'bojack stuff up again' but he's chagned a good bit. it will be a fight he'll have the rest of hsi life.
Missed out on the opportunity to add the Todd clip, "that's a terrible thing to say to a baby!" hahahaha this is another incredible time line video, so grateful for all the bojack content!
People are always upset that Hollyhock cut Bojack off without knowing the full context of the situation,but they never really try to understand from her perspective. During her time with Bojack, she saw how toxic he was to his own mother, had drug problems, literally told Hollyhock to break into someone's house and on top of all that got drugged and fainted while staying in his home. Not to mention, Hollyhock now has 2 different sources mentioning Bojack's behaviour around young women. Most would want her to confront Bojack but it's understandable that she's scared at this point. It was commendable how she did what she thought was best for her own mental health.
She was also aware of his sleazy behavior with young women, expressing discomfort and shock that the guy slept with the president of his fan club. She also sarcastically apologized that he has to talk to women he was shitty to. She also didn’t really want a relationship at first either and BOJACK was the one to get her to stay, while also at the same time ignoring and belittling her. Even though she was open to having him as a sibling, it’s obvious that she still kept him at a distance.
Not excusing Bojacks actions at all but Hollyhocks decision always seemed cold. He was pretty transparent from the jump that he was in a bad place, had been a womanizer, and continued making mistakes. She originally pleaded to stay, It also wasn't his fault she was drugged. It was only after he went to rehab, became a professor, a better person ( which even she acknowledged ), and be a positive supportive presence in her life did she cut him out after finding out what happened. His only living family, cut him out. It's a question of is redemption & forgiveness deserved. Personally I like to think so if someone is genuinely trying. So good for HH own well being, but how BJ was a bad brother in the past, she became a bad sister.
It’s the fact she tries to get Bojack to play nice to his unfit mother while living in his house. Knowing how much Bojack hates this. I don’t hate her for cutting out Bojack. I just hate how she tries to get him to reconnect with his mother.
Even without the interviews exposing Bojack, that one episode where they were supposed to have some bonding time but Bojack spent the whole day dragging her around town and doing illegal and dangerous things just to get his hands on drugs while she was STILL dealing with the trauma of overdosing herself was horrible behavior. As much as I am glad to see Boj possibly on a better path at the end of the show, Hollyhock had every right to cut him off. Even before her finding out about his questionable behavior with younger women, he really didn't treat her well at all.
Honestly it’s great that they showed that she really cut him out of her life, it’s realistic and shows that not everything will be, forgiven and your bad actions, no matter how old they are, can and may have an bad influence on your current life.
It's still pretty sad that so many people critique Hollhocks decision to cut Bojack from her live. Many seem to forget that while we followed Bojack around over the entire show, she didn't. From her perspective the decision was rational. It's obvious that it wasn't easy for her.
Literally everyone sided with her tho. There are VERY few comments siding with, or even just pitying Bojack. Many even find "empowering" what she did, and most comments are cookie-cutter
@@XMarx-it1yj feel like part of it is that hollyhock brought the better side out of bojack than most others and while he definitely put her into weird situations... lets face it she's a bit of a weirdo herself and probably didn't mind the escapade. But i feel what really hurts us is that out of all of his relationships, he did not lose hollyhock via his own actions at all. And in soem small ways, he lost her to slander.... Semi slander. He far from acted like a mature adult and had many a sin on his back, he was NOT responsible for the actions of those teens back in the day. He was basically just following along. His guilt there was only in not being an adult there, not in them getting durnk and getting into trouble. Though he was 100% responsible to accepting the advances of a fucking teenaged girl. it was....... Yea. He deserved that. But those teens.... I hate that dude a lot, he basically is a liar who put all the bullshit he did on the adult present.
It sucks people were criticizing Hollyhock for leaving. Yeah it hurt us for the audience cause we loved her, but also in story wise, she made an understandable decision to cut Bojack out of her life. Also would kill for a Hollyhock spinoff with her 8 gay polyamorous dads
I never understood why people made Hollyhock the bad guy when she cut Bojack out of her life. Like, it made sense. Bojack, though a great character, is not the best person. And we, the audience, knows this.
I really liked how he put off reading the letter long after it was obvious what had happened, because "as long as I haven't read this letter she's still in my life"
I always felt like we were missing a second half to the final episodes of Bojack. I think it ended perfectly but I would for them to continue the show in a miniseries or a final movie, perhaps showing how the people who knew him like Hollyhock dealing with her life after the Sarah Lynn interview.
I think it was smart of the writers to give the audience the same amount of closure that BoJack got. We had to endure the situation through his perspective. That being said, I really want a Hollyhock sequel miniseries
I'm pretty sure it was supposed to be two seasons instead of an elongated sixth season. Those extra eight episodes woulda been great for fleshing things out
@@pdfbanana It really bums me out that Bojack was cut short most likely to the studio unionizing. I still hope one day they can pull off a final movie El Camino style.
If we ever get a Bojack follow-up, it probably shouldn't be about Bojack. Heck, why not Todd? Everyone else's story had some sort of finality, but with Todd it feels his wacky misadventures will continue.
@@chaoticneutral7976more about Bojack's life. Nah, the whole point with Bojack is his toxicity is a cycle he cant control. He only gets incrementally less toxic with each cycle, but we probably wont see him fully end that cycle until his deathbed. But seeing the stories of the other characters absolutely. It was really interesting how the show forshadows the fates of the characters: Todd is no longer a slacker and has a good life independent of Bojack, meanwhile Gina's PTSD will most likely ruin her career prospects, and then you have Penny who is in the middle. It shows how far ranging the impact of a toxic person can be despite you cutting them out in your life.
What scares me most is Beatrice recognizing Hollyhock. That means she kept track of Holly after she was given away. Probably saw her from a far or a picture of Holly growing up, and thats how she knew. "God you look just like him", Butterscotch. Might be a strech but Beatrice possibly saw Holly as another one of her 'kids' too, even if it wasn't biological. She had such scorn for Butterscotch at that point that she could never love Bojack properly because she saw so much of his father in him, but that second child, Hollyhock. Taken away from her mother, and the father, the father that seemed to taint everything, and so Hollyhock was spared in Beatrice's eyes.
I know it means literally nothing, and statistically there are hundreds of people where this is the case, but it really fucks with me that I was born extremely close to the canonical birth date of Hollyhock, and I also grew up in Wichita Kansas. She is easily my favorite character in the show and I find her struggle very likable and relatable. Fantastic video.
You're right! A TV show about Hollyhock would be fun. Connecting with her mother, learning about Butterscotch, maybe or maybe not reconnecting with Bojack, and so many dads!! It would be interesting to see the world of Bojack Horseman explored through a character with a more positive outlook. Maybe not 6 seasons interesting, but it would be a fun way to revisit Hollywoo / Hollywoob.
I love how her story ends. From our perspective in the audience, it might seem sudden and sad, but it’s a super empowering thing for her to do. I LOVE it.
even if it was partly built on a lie? the dude lied to hollyhock. true he did nothing adult like when he was with them, but the girl was already oding on alcohol even before he came in and he didn't exactl do anyhting except not act like an adult and stop them. his sin was accepting that daughter's advances, but that was his only sin there, if an extreme one indeed. the rest, was them, yet they pinned the trauma alll on bojack to an unfair degree. Lying little fucker. ...... Perhaps, there would have been a separation anyway, but there would be some closure. Out of all of his relationships, he was desperate to keep his relationship with hollyhock as untainted as humanly, and horsely, possible. she came in when most of his bridges had been and that season had been the only happy ending the series ever got. he managed to keep hold of this relationship....... And someone else piosoned her againt him. think people are more angry about that part and the lack fo closure, rather than at her herself.
I have watched bojack A MILLION times and not once did i notice 9:17 where Hollyhock got skinner, sorted all the change and was flipping through the channels. Your attention to detail never fails to amaze me!
@@taddad2641 right because getting her to go on a drug discovery dangerous mission on the ONE day they have together when she was not even in college yet is not harmful!
Hollyhock was such an important character. People are allowed to leave your life of all you do is make them feel bad. She tried for BoJack so many times and she kept getting hit back whether through found information or things BoJack directly said and the way he acted around her. Just like Gina, she didn’t want BoJack to be her story, she wanted her own.
This show is so good. When BoJack was going to be canceled over Sarah Lin, I felt, "No, he's grown so much", but then I realised that he needed to be held responsible for his actions. Such a great show about a toxic person.
I didn't see anyone mention this but I really like in particular that we the audience don't get to know what was in Hollyhock's letter. She cut Bojack out of her life completely and that includes us. People get upset that they can't pick apart her letter and find a way to blame the victim, but honestly what wording she used really doesn't matter. Her action was clear.
This video is perfect timing! I was just scripting a video on why Hollyhock made the right choice by cutting Bojack out of her life. This video makes the timeline really easy to follow in terms of how her feelings changed overtime. As always, great video! Can't wait for the next one.
Seeing Hollyhock go to school and seem to live a good life is honestly the most uplifting thing about this show She's a good and sensible person and deserves good things, completely opposite to BoJack
Yes, i've so been waiting for you to do a Hollyhock timeline Johnny! Hollyhock is yet another one of my all time favorite side characters in the Bojack Horseman series i loved every second she was on the show (Except for the bad times) right up to when she cut Bojack out of her life that is...and i'm glad you put Hollyhock's full name in the video title, i swear every time i heard a character say her full name it made me think-"Wow, that takes the phrase mouth full to another level"
Omg, I can’t believe I forgot about her seeing Pete repeat. That must have been so traumatic for Peter and the fact that he had to deal with a poisoned teen gf by himself after the trusted adult in the situation abandoned him.
Speaking as someone who’s had to cut out a person I loved very much because they were just a toxic person I really like how they handled Hollyhock and her decision in the show. Yes it was very sad for Bojack but at the same time I have no doubt it was just as hard for Hollyhock because they made it clear that she was struggling with how much she cared for him. But she reached her breaking point and did what was best for her even though it was a painful choice. It’s sad but sometimes we can love someone but they’re still bad for us and we can’t be around them anymore. I hope she still remembers the good parts of him fondly and how much she cares for him.
Love seeing the support for Hollyhock here. I think this touches on another important aspect of Bojack's recovery because he WAS getting better. Even with the relapse, Bojack was trying to become better. However, the direction with Hollyhock is genius because a lot of the other commenters are right. Hollyhock had every right to cut ties with someone as toxic as Bojack despite the familial connection as well as how hard that decision was to make AND highlighted that despite Bojack getting better, he Hollyhock had too much negative history with Bojack and just because he was getting better didn't mean Hollyhock owed him a continued connection. Just brilliant writing from the Bojack team
This was an amazing exploration of the way BoJack unintentionally and intentionally screwed up Hollyhock's life and gave him an extreme wakeup call he needed, not to mention proved to him that not everyone was willing to stick around while he continued to be bad news. Hollyhock didn't need validation from Bojack to be a good character, or even a good daughter or sister. While he did give her some good things, he left more of a negative footprint on her. How about a Penny Carson timeline next?
One small thing I noticed about Hollyhock is how her appearance strangely enough matches what we know abot Butterscotch's mother's appearance. Butterscotch told Beatrice his mother had a diamond on her head, like she did, and that he "saw that on a picture once". Then he told Henrietta she had hair similiar to his mother, and once again, mentioning seeing that on the picture. Now, Hollyhock clearly has Henrietta's hair, and she also has a diamond on her head. Butterscotch never met Hollyhock but I wonder how he would react since she has both of these features that strongly reminded Butterscotch of his mother. What if Hollyhock is actually a spitting image of her biological grandmother?
One thing I find interesting is how Hollyhock is introduced shortly after Sarah Lynn's death which possibly is a symbolic way of giving Bojack another chance at being a father figure (especially since the Ethan Around show did not continue).I'd like to think that Hollyhock could have been the person who would have helped Sarah Lynn change her trajectory for real had she been introduced a little earlier just like she is largely the reason Bojack and Beatrice even had a nice moment right before her death. The feels
A really interesting thing to note! In the second episode of bojack horseman, Butterscotch and Beatrice are in a fight and there is a comment about how Buttersotch isn’t married to his assistant. He responds with that if his assistant also refused to get rid of the baby like Beatrice, that he would’ve. This reveals that Buttersotch, after Beatrice talks to Henrietta, has no clue of what actually happened and died without knowing. I caught that the other day and I can’t stop thinking about it. Just found it super interesting that they give us that in the 2nd episode.
I would probably agree, but that conservation takes place decades before Hollyhock was conceived. Bojack was a young child, probably around 5 or 6 at the time, while Hollyhock was born when Bojack was 36 and already moved out of the house. So there’s about a 30 year difference between these two events. And I don’t believe that Butterscotch was ignorant to the fact he had a child out of wedlock either, Henrietta always seemed to want to carry the pregnancy to term. But it didn’t seem like he cared either way.
17 is a weirdly important number in the show. He took 17 minutes to call for help for Sarah Lynn, which is too long/too much. He admitted to not being able to resist sleeping with a 17 year old, which is not (old) enough. It's an interesting comparison, idk if it was intentional or not.
I adored Hollyhock, loved what she added to the show and for BoJack’s character, and loved her design and Aparna Nanchurla’s performance, def one of my favorite characters. As much as it hurt she definitely made the right choice in cutting BoJack out of her life, she’s not responsible for a middle aged horse man’s bs
Hollyhock was very much in the right. On top of the fact that he keeps an uncomfortable hold on the women in his life, it's almost like being strangled by a boa. As long as everything's good in Bojack's world, he pretty much shoos everyone and doesn't think of the consequences. But the second he's struggling he reels them in tight. He showed up EVERYWHERE at campus Hollyhock was and boundaries were clearly not his strong suit. Not giving Bojack an out or way to contact her is perfect because until he learns
Thank you for being a large-reaching voice of reason with Hollyhock cutting Bojack out of her life. I grew up around toxic men and fell into some seriously terrible relationships that were just me falling into my savior complex that came from my parents negligence. The warning signs that Hollyhock ignored to find her mom and spend time with Bojack as her believe biological dad were so painful to watch. All through season 4 I was absolutely freaked out about Hollyhock being where she was because I was just waiting for him to hurt her, take advantage of her, or neglect her in some way. And really, all three of those things did end up happening. But the difference, and why I think a lot of people defended Bojack, was because it wasn't AS bad as other moments in Bojack's life. But then, beyond what Hollyhock herself went through, comes to light and Hollyhock is supposed to do...what? Live around a person she doesn't know all that well who is really clingy and kind of creepy outside of being a long distance blood relationship. So when I went through videos about Hollyhock, hoping to see people rallying around such a strong and cohesive display of autonomy, I was shocked to see so many of the videos and comments calling her awful names and disgracing her as "another useless woman". These people assumed Hollyhock was responsible for Bojack's emotions or reprehensible actions like she hadn't been the young adult and literal child during EVERY situation she found herself faced with. At, at most, 22 years old, Hollyhock isn't responsible for anyone but herself and her education. Bojack has lived more than two of her life times with so many opportunities to stop doing terrible things and continued to do so even after moments that should have been the worst moment of his life (choose one, it doesn't matter honestly), and most of them at the expense of women. Hollyhock is one of the strongest characters I have seen in a long time. She truly needs to be seen as the standard of writing autonomy for young women.
She’s literally a teenage girl, she’s still kinda a kid. She’s supposed to be focusing on growing up. She felt like she needed to get away from Bojack, because of the toxicity he might pit her with. Sure, this happened when he was trying to be better. And yes, that makes it a little sad. But Bojack is not a good person. Can we really blame a young woman for not wanting him in her life?
I would love to see a spin-off of Hollyhock's POV and watch how she grew up and what kind of person she becomes in her adult life. Like what was she studying for? How did she deal with covid? Did she become successful or is she struggling due to her trauma like so many other people do? I wanna knooooowwww
I relate to Hollyhock having to cut ties with someone she cared about for her well being. I had to cut ties with my very best friend a year or so ago including changing my number and blocking on social media due to increasing drug and alcohol problems. After recognizing that he wasn’t going to make the changes he promised he would, I was continuously being pressured to do things I wasn’t comfortable with. I went down a very slippery slope and luckily I was able to climb out of it, but unfortunately I had to cut people loose to get out of the hole I dug for myself. 😔
I loved Hollyhock because she seemed to be someone that made Bojack genuinely put effort to make happy rather than being used to benefit him. It was crushing that we didn’t get “closure” from Hollyhock but it’s completely understandable. Like if you found out your full grown brother or uncle dated a teenager and slept with his costar daughter figure battling drug addiction, is it actually possible to be like “well maybe we can talk this out”. It’s not that Bojack can’t learn from his choices but what he’s already done is terrible and any context would just be an excuse. I’d not want to be associated with him too..
Am I the only one who wants him to do this video again but using Hollyhocks Manheim-Manheim-Guerrero-Robinson-Zilberschlag-Hsung-Fonzarelli-McQuack's FULL NAME every time? I can't be the only one.
Hollyhock my beloved, shes a very well written. Shes very much in the right for cutting BoJack out, and it's her right to reconnect or not, if she does? Cool, and if she doesnt especially after the series finale? Shes in her right. Same goes with anyone and everyone in BoJacks life who wants to/has cut him out.
What makes me sad about this is that she is one of the few people Bojack seemed to genuinely care for as family. He was distraught over her overdose and angry at his mother for instigating it and wanted more than anything for her to know the truth of her family even when he was shunned by her dads. I don’t blame her for cutting him out but it does make me a little sad since she seemed to be a genuinely good thing for him.
I love hollyhock so much and I think she’s really strong. I do wish we had something more about Henrietta after hollyhock met her. I also love her polyamorus dads
It's hard...my family pretty much did that to my eldest sister, she was so toxic and we all did so much. Soon there was silence from both ends, it was for the best.
As someone who has also made the decision to cut out a toxic person from my life ( I.e. my birth dad) I totally and completely understand how hard it is to do so. For a long time there was the excuse of " oh he's your family, this , that, and the third." But at a point I stopped making excuses and stopped listening to his. I did what I felt was best for me and while I felt guilty for a bit, I honestly felt so much weight off my shoulders. I respect Holly for doing what she did to take care of herself.
I love Hollyhock. She made a very hard decision and handled it so well. I love that we don't see her again or know what was next for her. The not knowing is its own sort of closure.
Another point about Hollyhock cutting out Bojack, there were two instances where people (both younger women) needed medical attention due to drugs/alcohol (which Bojack also provided), and in both instances, he was resistant to getting medical attention. He only did in the prom incident because the kids pressured him, then left a teenager to deal with it at the hospital. And in Sara Lynn's case, he waits almost 20 minutes to create an alibi before getting her help, which very well could have cemented her death. And given his track record, would he have gotten help for Hollyhock when she overdosed if he knew it was an overdose? And that was only one of the toxic patterns that even after he began to change, he refused to acknowledge and take responsibility for.
I think a part of the reason that some audience members felt upset but Holly cutting off Bojack was the feeling of second hand cut off. Sometimes when you cut people out of your life that means some others may go with them through no fault of their own or because they choose to take the side of the person being cut off. I feel a lot of people will side with Bojack no matter what because they relate to him and like him think the consequences of the past shouldn't effect their present and future even if they haven't done much or anything at all to make up for the things that they have done or even acknowledge them outside of a sense of self loathing. Everything Bojack did to better himself was just for him and him alone and he was more than happy right up until the end of the series to bring others with him when he inevitably spiraled out of control again. Hollyhock made the right call, and even though it hurt as an audience member know there is no way we'll see her again I felt happy for her.
Think about it, Hollyhock didn't know about Bojack's history with young women until someone told her. She sees him at her game, but she doesn't know that he's there for her and assumes he's there to pick up women, at that point she decides to cut him out of her life
Well sarah lynn was like a daughter to him too, and she saw he slept with the president of his fan club, she knew he went to prom with some girl. She was probably thinking about her own safety
10:35 Wait..I never understood this part to mean that Henrietta had been trying to reach Hollyhock the entire time. That pink envelope is what Hollyhock was putting together to send to the adoption agency (you can see it in the scene when Hollyhock is talking about the Chandler's List SNL skit). She sent it to the adoption agency, which then sent it to Henrietta (who was in the care of Beatrice cause I guess she was a live-in maid, or that's the address Beatrice gave the hospital when Henrietta had the baby). However because Beatrice no longer lived there, it was sent to her senior's home, and then ultimately to Bojack's house which was the new address they had on file for her after being kicked out of the senior's home. There's a moment in a S4 episode (I can't remember which one) where Bojack tells Beatrice she has some mail from the senior's home or something, and picks up the pink envelope. So yeah..I'm not too sure where you got the idea that Henrietta was trying to reach Hollyhock. Can you explain that a bit? o.o I'm a little intrigued cause I never took this whole plot point to mean that.
I love Hollyhawk, I had to cut out some family I was close to for some days dangerously similar predatory behaviour. it made me feel so much better to see her overcome that part and distance herself from something that was toxic and hard.
I think it’s nice how earlier in the series, we see Bojack talk about how once he and his mother are gone the whole bloodline will be erased, and talks about how cursed his family is, but hollyhock subverts that and leads a healthy and hopeful life with a good support system and upholds boundaries despite everything
Technically Hollyhoock is not Beatrice's daughter. she is the daughter of Butterscotch and Henrietta Platchkey (which makes her and Bojack half-siblings). So the Bojack's maternal side of the family will become extinct with Bojack's death.
The way I see it the next time Hollyhock comes into contact with Bojack might be when she reads a book that Bojack wrote while in prison or after prison. Then finally when she goes to his funeral. She'll likely go for the closure. I mean it will give her the chance to actually meet up with Bojack's inner circle.
Not knowing exactly what she said is what has a lot of people uncertain about Hollyhock. We assume it was just BoJack but what if it was entire family she wanted nothing to do with. Ever since she found out about her father things got worse for her. Beatrice poisoning her with weight loss pills, her father using her mother, and BoJack's history getting revealed. When you add together all the family issues coming from the Horseman history compared to her foster family cutting loose the Horseman family was probably the best after trying for so long.
I love this series but would love to see one more after Bojack on character actress Margo Martindale. Her timeline in the series is beyond ridiculous and would be really fun to see
I like to think that hollyhock stayed in contact with Peter and after graduation maybe moved closer to her birth mother to have a better relationship with her
HollyHawk leaving BoJacks life was the right call it's just hard for us as the audience see BoJack lose someone important in his life again and it hits after he was geniunely trying to change his ways when it happened
Thank you for defending Hollyhock's decision to cut Bojack off. I don't care what any says, she had every reason to be uncomfortable around her brother. Just because they're family doesn't mean she owed Bojack anything, no second chances, not even an explanation. And I feel like Bojack himself would agree.
Life isn’t a sitcom... real life relationships don’t always get closure. It’s not your place to seek closure from someone who’s removed you from their life, as much as you might want to and feel as though everything wasn’t your fault.
I will always feel bad for people who have super long names like that. I can't imagine having to do paper work with writing the full name multiple times.
i love your final synopsis on hollyhock cutting out bojack and while yes "we'd all love for hollyhock to forgive and reconnect with bojack" i hope we NEVER get a series where they do this. bojack NEEDS to be taught a lesson, jail and fines can often be slaps on the wrist of the rich and famous which is WHY bojack repeatedly made damning and horrible decisions on his part and under his name several times over. that is WHY hollyhock cutting him out ACTUALLY feels like a real punishment for his actions. i believe in forgiveness but speaking as an overly forgiving person who has let too many people stay after hurting me and also as a person who as a child used to struggle with not letting go of people who have left you; bojack & hollyhock was one of the first real and painful but necessary lessons of how people leave eachother represented in media (in my opinion its the anti-ross from friends situation). sometimes you fallout good and stay friends, sometimes you drift apart by chance and circumstance, sometimes you tear apart in a mutually evil way.... but the hardest hitting is when they leave you without closure without being able to speak without being able to ask why or when you have to do that to someone else KNOWING how much it will hurt... and you have to accept it and do it anyway. it would dampen the the gut punching impact of that message if hollyhock let him back in. i hope hollyhock and bojack never get that closure and while closure is nice and rare to have i personally prefer it the way it is because its more accurate to real life in that closure IS a rare and nice commodity but is SELDOM ever afforded to us.
the thing is, he lost hollyhock for reasons outside of his control in that case. While related to his sins, they were revealed by a untrustworthy third part, and one who actually lied and framed that whole escapade was bojack's doing. The true sin was...... accepting the advances in the end. she was poisoned against him. While yea she might have actually separated from him for real anyway after it all got revealed... in that universe she would have at least talked to him one last time, at least. A closure there at least. Bojack did all he could to leave his relationshipw ith hollyhock as untainted as possible. and yet lost her anyway...... and i feel like that broke him deeply more than anything else.
@@taddad2641 that might be well and good but if im remembering correctly the girl he bought alcohol for was a minor and he was almost forty. if i found out my "dad" or even my uncle did that with that age gap... im sorry to say but my contact with him would probably be close to if not completely "ghosted"
I think what I find sad is given Hollyhock's perspective it TOTALLY makes sense that she would cut Bojack out, she saw the good in him and she ignored clear red flags because she wanted him to be better and knew he could be better. Even after hearing what he did that night, she dwelled on it, but didn't cut him off. She wanted to figure out how she felt and she had a lot of stress piling up alongside him inserting himself into her college life, which just stressed her out more. In that time, Bojack really was changing, of course he was still fully capable of what he had done before, but he was at a moment in his life where he was making positive changes, had learned a lot and figured out a lot about himself. Not perfect, but still. The bomb dropped and she made her decision which wasn't bad to do. From her perspective. There was no real reason outside of 'family' to keep him in her life and there was a lot of reasons to remove him. Temporarily cutting him off, even, would've been a GIFT to him. Bojack fucked up and it came back to bite him, it always does. That was the worst decision of his life and honestly one of the most positive, simply because he got what he deserved. I LOVE Bojack and it hurt to see all the shit he put himself through. I was seething at times seeing him just make the most *horrible* decisions and it had me captivated. But wrapping back to the beginning, I find it sad because by the end of the series, I seriously think Bojack is going to be better. There will be hiccups, but he really, changed. I'm sure he still has some problems, but I know he'll be okay up until he dies. If only Hollyhock knew what we did, she might have been able to continue and form a much healthier relationship with Bojack that had no toxicity!
I can´t undesrtand how people get so mad at her for choosing being apart from Bojack, like, that's the healthiest thing to do, but people are butthurt becase she made Bojack sad.
not long after he discussed Hollyhock being drugged, I got an ad that said “looking for the perfect product to help maintain your horse’s weight and condition?”
Man, Hollyhock wasn't even eighteen years old while dealing with a fifty-something year old brother's nonsense? Nah, she didn't need Bojack in her life that badly. Her life has barely started. Good for her.
The fact that I had to argue this against someone who said that Hollyhock needed to be there for Bojack and she was in the wrong for not supporting him
@@missing_name WHAT? She's a child bro! Hollyhock was 17 years old when she first appeared on the show. The hell was she supposed to do? Be an untrained therapist? 😭
@@lemon-pop2923 Guess so 🤷♀️. But fr, how is a 17 year old supposed to be in charge of a 50(?) year old man. Bojack not having a support system is due to his own fault, and Hollyhock had no obligation to be that support system.
@@missing_name Agreed. She absolutely did not. Hollyhock is not responsible for Bojack's actions or what he decides to do with his life. Bojack is. After Sara Lynn's death I'd say Hollyhock did the right thing. I mean if he wasn't willing to call 911 to save somebody's life because he didn't want to get in trouble and it was his own FRIEND? If he couldn't do that for a friend, would he have done the exact same thing to Hollyhock, his own sister? NAWWW. Best not left wondering, I'm glad she got out and kept it pushing.
My post-BoJack timeline is something like this: he gets out of prison, takes Mr. PB up on his offer to stay with him until he can get a place of his own, and takes PC up on her offer to refer him to a good agent. She is as good as her word and BoJack's new agent gets him a spot on a comedy tour with other 80s-90s era comedians called "We Were Funny Once, Weren't We?" He spends a year on the road and does well enough to be offered a residency in a downtown Vegas casino, which he accepts. He does not return to LA. He could cross paths with Hollyhock there- plenty of reasons for a young girl to go to Vegas: bachelorette parties, 21st birthday celebrations, etc.
The best line in my opinion comes from Todd via Hollyhock (paraphrasing) Hollyhock: ever since I was a baby, people told me I look like BoJack Horseman Todd: that’s a *TERRIBLE* thing to tell a child!
bro i love your videos sm, especially episode breakdowns. i have watched bojack 7 times all the way through, and i watched all your bojack videos twice
YES this is a wonderful video, and Im glad you pointed out people who criticize her for the choice because she had every right to cut him off and seeing people demonize her over that is bizarre. But I also would love her of all the characters to be able to have her own side series since it's obvious that a lot of her life doesn't really rely on Bojack yet there's pieces that stand out as interesting as a stand alone and a sideseries (example: her interactions with Henrietta, Id love to see her and how she is)
It literally makes no sense. How don't they realize how uncomfortable Hollyhock must have felt hearing how her half brother interacted with minors? I get liking a character, but that doesn't mean agreeing with and defending everything they do. Bojack was very flawed and did awful things to people in his life. :/
Hollyhock need to do what was best for her mental health and was it right to do cut BoJack off with a letter instead of a phone call or in person or not even tell him. It was her decision and she made what she felt was the best decision to inform BoJack because she didn't owe him a reason or anything. Like you said Johnny, Hollyhock was put thru the ringer and came out with some damage, minimal yes but damage still. I loved the idea you proposed of doing a squeal series from Hollyhock perspective and seeing how she navigated her life post-BoJack and to see if she decides to reach back out. I personal feel it is in Hollyhock nature that she would seek BoJack out after several years or decades of silence. Would she regret not being in his life who's to say but I almost certain that Hollyhock time seek BoJack even if its one last in person or phone conservation.
I don’t know who needs to hear this but just because you cut someone out of your life, or distance yourself that doesn’t mean you have to hate them. You can still love them, it’s ok and it doesn’t make you weird. It’s only natural after all, I myself still love my step mother even though she did awful abusive and neglectful things to me all through my childhood. I’ll never trust her again no, but I forgive her. And I still love her. It doesn’t make you a bad person, it just means you want what’s best for you. I love you all, stay hydrated and get adequate sleep.
Hollyhock's place in season 6 is complicated, but she conveys a very necessary message; family or not, you have the right to cut toxic people out of your life.
Say it louder for the people in the back!
She should've at least said it to his face.
@@nanaki1990blox The second last time they meet before she learns about Arizona he has her fence hopping to run away from the cops, 2 eps after that the Gina incident happens.
She must've heard or seen the videos at some point, Bojack demonstrates himself as an unhinged pill popper. Pair that with everything from the interview why would she not be nervous about her relationship with him? Bojack doesn't act like an adult that people younger than him can truly be safe around and Hollyhock has the rationality to realize that.
@@billqiu4692 BoJack would never hurt Hollyhock, his sister of all people. Gina is the only person he's ever physically hurt. Not Diane, not Princess Carolyn, no one
i used to believe that hollyhock was in the wrong for cutting off bojack completely, but after rewatching it, she was completely in the right.
Just a thought about Butterscotch, some people think is a bit dissapointing how the show never dwells in his past, but I think is part of his irony. He always wanted to be a famous writer who wrote the best novel of all times, but he just ended as a loser with a grandiosity complex with a very pathetic death. Not even Bojack remembers his face during the penultimate episode where Butterscotch doesn't have his face or his personality at all. Even the audience never gets to know anything about him apart of flashbacks. It was meant to always being unknown.
There was a theory I heard once that makes Butterscotch a little more tragic/sympathetic that said that his book was meant to be dedicated to Bojack as a way of showing his love for his son. It makes the failure of the book parallel his failure as a father to Bojack, and correct me if I'm wrong but Bojack never actually read the book so he never would have known.
I think it also represents real life really well bc sometimes you just don’t know people’s past, you only have their actions to judge, and you can’t know each detail that happened in their life before making a decision about them. Bojack represents many other abused children that never got an explanation for their parents’ horrid actions, and we really get to see their perspective. It also shows that no matter what his past was, what he did was never okay and it has real consequences on the present and future.
@@Mehhhhhhhh and even if we had learned about his past, it wouldn’t have changed anything
he would still be a narc loser who was too egotistical, too delusional and self absorbed that he destroyed every relationship in his life for some book he never even got to finish, it’s honestly quite bizarre how someone so consumed by their dream wasn’t able to achieve said dream
Butterscotch is lowkey like Brian from family guy
@mehh *
As a writer myself, I can say that it is possible that was his book, but at the same time, he worked on his book for years. Over time, it may have changed from being a story about a working class man to a story about his son, or rather, his perception of his son. I want to think that even Butterscotch has more to him, a kind side that was never shown beyond his and Beatrice’s honeymoon phase. He was likely very much like BoJack, where he self sabotaged and pushed everybody away, while still craving that love from others.
being able to recite her last name without script makes me feel like a god
I can finally remember which Man(n)heim is first
Hollyhock Manheim-Mannheim-Gurrero-Robinson-Zilberschlag-Hsung-Fonzerelli-McQuack.
Whenever someone questions why Hollyhock cut Bojack off I always say imagine if the show was called "Hollyhock" or if Hollyhock was your friend and all you knew about Bojack came from her prospective, and from her prospective Bojack is a self destructive mess with an extensive history of toxic relationships with young girls.
This! BoJack is the protagonist of his own story so we see it mostly through his eyes, but understanding the persepctive of the other characters makes the show even more impactful, and it makes their decisions make sense.
Even with the broad perspective we get as viewers of the show...I can't say that description is too far off. Like, Bojack isn't some evil predator monster, but his actions are....yeah...
@@matti.8465 Exactly this, intentional or not Bojack hurts everyone in his orbit and they all get happier when they're out of it.
@@callmeobsequious honestly this is another one of those important messages this show gives to the audience…. you don’t know everyone’s story you don’t always know why people do the things they do… sometimes it’s best to truly try to understand them and where they come from, but other times… like for hollyhock… it is best to walk away, both for yourself and for them, even if you love them and theyre your family whether blood or not.
Honestly you don't even have to think about what Hollyhooks perspective is, Bojack is pretty awful even from his own perspective. She was lucky that Bojack thought she was his real daughter, I mean having a daughterly relationship didn't stop him from sleeping with Sarah Lynn.
And even when Bojack really tried to be a good person for Hollyhook, he did so many things wrong and it was just a matter of time until his wrongdoings hit Hollyhook.
This is the first I’m hearing of people criticising Hollyhock for cutting Bojack out of her life. I’m pretty surprised anyone holds that decision against her, she has more than enough reason to do so.
It’s because the audience is given more context from BoJack’s perspective and we see things that Hollyhock doesn’t know about. I think the people who do hold it against her are expecting her to have the extra context without realizing that she is entirely justified on her end and what she does know. Part of what makes BoJack Horseman such a great show is how well it addresses different perspectives of a person or situation. Hollyhock doesn’t see any of BoJack’s growth that we as an audience have, so it makes her decision look extra harsh upon first viewing. If the audience only saw Hollyhock’s version of events, I don’t think anyone would blame her.
Unfortunately from what I seen, it's very common. I saw a whole video saying she was selfish and should of stayed because of family or comments on the official bojack instagram cursing her out for cutting him off
@@bignerd7934 jfc
@@bignerd7934 Jesus, were those people even paying attention to the show!? Staying "because of family" is what fucked up Honey, Beatrice, Bojack *and* Hollyhock!
@@bignerd7934 Sad thing is that throughout the show this has been shown that staying in contact with family BECAUSE they’re family is toxic for a person’s own mental health and it’s been shown with both Bojack and Dian (Bojack’s being throughout the show and Dian being an episode). I understand that seeing his POV may make people more sympathetic towards him but when watching this show you have to think “is what he’s doing right?”. At least that’s what I think-
Hollyhock was completely in the right for distancing herself from Bojack. Assuming she watched the interviews, she had 2 different sources stating that Bojack has a history of being creepy around young women, and she has no obligation to be around a person who makes her uncomfortable. It must’ve been a tough decision for her to make. She deserves the W
Absolutely. Hollyhock saw the red flags and immediately removed herself from the situation. Good thing too, cause I have no doubt Bojack’s subsequent spiral after the interviews would have absolutely made him do something stupid to Hollyhock if she had been around him. The best thing she ever did was stay away from him.
its a complciated situation though i feel that.... she should have realized she was a lot safer with bojack?
she lived with him for several months after all and the harm she endured was not from HIS actions at all, but the actions of his mother. true they had some weird escapades after but she isn't one against weird escapades.
He kinda... said it himself in a weird way.
@@taddad2641 but she wasn’t safe around Bojack. Bojack has a history of being creepy around young women and Hollyhock is a young woman. Sure the overdosing wasn’t Bojack’s fault but don’t forget about all the danger he put her in when she visited him in season 5. Hollyhock is completely justified in feeling uncomfortable around Bojack and she doesn’t owe him anything. I’ve been in similar situations to her, where I’d have to cut certain people out of my life because of their behavior that made me uncomfortable.
@@taddad2641 Absolutely not. There's no 'she should have realized' against a teenager. Bojack had a track record, a horrible one. She did the right thing distancing herself. In real life, a teenage girl distancing herself from someone like Bojack is the absolute right move.
@@squill9446 His relationship with women had nothing to do with her since she is his haft sister. Holli just was getting brainwashed with Gender Studies nonsense & other college stuff.
Besides she heard of a man at a party that Bojack "forced" his girlfriend to drink until she passed out & ended up in a hospital. (Tho in an older ep showed that Bojack didn't force anyone to drink, it was the girl choice). Bojack's mother drugged her, but it wasn't Bojack's fault. Bojack tried to change at the end & tried to be more involved in her life & tried to be a better older brother. Until the interview where his past hunts him. His personal romantic life shouldn't be her concern. He was never forced into any of those women. Besides they were women not girls. I hate how people treat women like children.
I Love hollyhock so much- when she found out how toxic Bojack is she just dropped him because she knew he wasn’t good for her
Yeah it was so bittersweet. You want them to have a good relationship but nobody can really have that with Bojack
im so glad she did. mainly for her sake, but for bojack too. people can change, but they deserve consequences for their shitty actions
@@Spongebrain97 I like to think that they can, in this world no one is perfect, and where bojack ends the show he has worked through most of his major issues and comes across as a pretty grounded, self conscious and normal version of himself.
@@kitnal4143 i think it's a way better ending if hollyhock and diane separate themselves from bojack's life forever. it's what the healthy thing in real life would be, and giving his shitty actions consequences is important
That's selfish af lol. Get a life. The women of today
People hold Hollyhock cutting BoJack out of her life against her? _Really?_ That's completely wild, man, no way. She didn't owe BoJack shit. I love how it was handled. It suits the show and, in the end, I think it was a good decision for Hollyhock. She can reconnect with him if she wants, but she doesn't owe him that and it's not like it was dirty of her to cut him off or something. Sheesh.
I never liked Hollyhock personally, so I was a little salty that she couldn't just be straight with him , and did it in a LETTER after basically cannonballing into his life. Peter definitely exaggerated the story about what happened in New Mexico. Not saying that everything Bojack did then wasnt irresponsible and messed up, but he did not "force" them to drink alcohol. They were already drinking. Should he have bought them bourbon? No, but it wasn't like he just did it out of the blue. She's not obligated to do anything for Bojack, but it was kind of cowardly the way she did it
@@JaneDoe-gu5sb But the Pete Repeat story isn’t what caused her to cut contact. It did cause some strain on their relationship, but she didn’t actually go no-contact until she found out that BoJack waited 17 minutes to call an ambulance after Sarah Lynn OD’d and learned the extent of his inappropriate behavior toward Sarah Lynn. And she had every reason to cut things off over a letter. She’s already experienced how manipulative BoJack can be at times, she probably didn’t want to have to listen to his excuses. Cutting toxic people out is HARD, and it was probably hard on her to make that decision, so it seems a bit unfair to call her cowardly for going about it in a way that was probably the best for her.
@@JaneDoe-gu5sb pete's story didnt make her cut contact. it was just a red flag to her and it strained their relationship, but that alone wasn't enough fr her to leave. it was the fact that he caused the death of a young woman who he took advantage of. she shouldn't have to be faced to face with someone who does that. DO NOT say its cowardly to do that by letter.
@@JaneDoe-gu5sb Okay, first of all, that's not why she cut him off. She cut him off because of his history taking advantage of younger women. Sure, Biscuits was wrong about the Jameson situation-BoJack was genuinely trying to help her-but she also got the Penny situation _wrong_ because she didn't get the context that he almost slept with her. She sure got the context or him sleeping with his TV daughter while she was addicted, though!
And what BoJack did was irresponsible and messed up. Full stop. What would he have told Hollyhock had he the chance to explain himself? "I didn't _force them_ to drink the alcohol! I just got them more, stronger alcohol! And when one of them got alcohol poisoning, what was I supposed to do besides leave her at the hospital with her boyfriend and coerce him into staying silent about it?" Which, by the way, _that_ wasn't cowardly, but not wanting to speak face to face with an overtly toxic person is? Okay.
I know if it was me, I would have done the same thing-I HAVE done the same to toxic people in my life (albeit not through letters, via texts and blocking features, but same difference), because I knew leaving the door open at all would inevitably just lead me back to them. Plus, again, considering that she had not only recently heard what had happened in NM (or at least part of it, lol), but was now seeing evidence that he had a less than savory history with younger women (again, acknowledging the Jameson story was inaccurate, but also acknowledging the Penny story was inaccurate in that it didn't talk about him-and I must emphasize-almost sleeping with a girl who was Hollyhock's age at the time)? Yeah, no, I wouldn't be having a conversation with him fave to face. I wouldn't feel safe. BoJack is not at all the victim in Hollyhock cutting him off, and Hollyhock was not cowardly. In fact, I'd argue that that was brave as shit of her.
@@JaneDoe-gu5sb cutting an asshole out of your life is the least cowardly thing a person can do
I’ve rewatched this show over 10 times and didn’t even notice Hollyhock’s weight loss after drinking the coffee😨😨
I've watched Bojack twice and it honestly shocked me to see the weight difference! Only when it was pointed out did I see the difference, and I literally rewinded this video just to confirm that I wasn't seeing things!! it's so crazy (impressive, even) that they would put that detail in!
yeah idkw i feel guilty over not noticing it as well 😭
I noticed it and I got worried
Y
People get so pissed that Hollyhock cut Bojack out of her life. They claimed he loved her when he couldn't even say it when she said it to him. We see how Bojack treats the women he claims to love/care about, and she dodged a bullet. I'm sad we didn't get to see her anymore, but she did the right thing.
Nah, Bojack did love her. And at first Hollyhock was excited to know about her birth family, like many adopted kids. But then she realised that she didn't *know* him, not really, and he had this long chequered past that she wasn't comfortable with.
It's not that she cut him out, that's her decision to make. It's how she did it and refused to talk to Bojack about the allegations that Pete made at the party in New York. Someone mind you, that was a complete stranger to her. She's a teenage girl, living in this time period, her behaviour makes sense from a narrative standpoint, but that doesn't mean she's not naive, childish, and nonconfrontational, like people around her age are right now. What she did was still wrong, and while the hard decision she made should be understood, how she went about it I'll never support.
@@scrdart we literally never see what's in the letter she wrote. She very well could have brought up what Pete said to her, and Bojack couldn't even try to defend himself because Pete was right.
@@solarvoid777 It's not face to face, and she sits on it and let's it fester for longer than she should have. She doesn't even give him a chance.
@@scrdart He was constantly calling her and calling her even though she was clearly screening his calls. If she'd talked to him in person, he wouldn't have listened to her, gotten defensive, and guilt-tripped her like he did at the start of the second half of season six.
In the second interview with Braxby, the revelation that Bojack waited to call the paramedics for 17 minutes and him saying Sarah Lynn was like a daughter to him is probably the biggest reason why Hollyhock cut him off.
At first, he loved her like a daughter and even after learning about her actual parentage, the age gap still had some effect on their dynamic. The fact that Sarah Lynn wasn’t “like those other women” and that he loved her like a daughter YET he still waited 17 minutes to call 911 is probably a breaking point. Because even though Bojack loved Sarah Lynn like a daughter, that love wasn’t strong enough to trump Bojack’s selfishness and fear of taking responsibility for his actions. Bojack loved Hollyhock, but Hollyhock doesn’t know if that love would be conditional if something like her overdose happened again. I wonder if a part of her wonders that if Bojack was alone and was somewhat aware of what was happening to her, would he have also waited before calling the ambulance? Especially since her overdose could potentially have been fatal.
That aspect of the interview feels ignored a lot when discussing Hollyhock’s motivation to cut Bojack off.
Agreed! This makes a lot of sense.
Agreed, thinking this exact same thing.
Edit: Worse thought is that if this is what Bojack did with SarahLynn, his “daughter”… Hollyhock being just his sister now. Oof
This was such a great breakdown of her character. I'll never understand why people criticize Hollyhock. She did what she needed to to protect herself. It's not like she took the decision lightly. As someone who had to cut off their own family for similar reasons, I identify with her a lot.
It’s because Bojack is the main character and people forget that he’s also a terrible person, at least from Hollyhock’s perspective
Hollyhock leaving Bojack’s life was the single hardest pill the show ever asked me to swallow. I too would like to hope they could someday reconcile, it is one of the core tennents of Bojack that nothing ever really last forever. Usually that means life, fame, or love, but maybe it could mean seperation too? I dunno.
Still, ballsy as hell to stop where they did. It’s a painful choice and I have nothing but respect for it.
Bojack didn't even do anything wrong though
@@tidepodpadthai2633 Bullshit. Bojack did wrong constantly. Not directly at her, but more than enough to throw up red flag after red flag.
@@tidepodpadthai2633 Have you seen the show?
@@MJTRadio exactly. she had every right.
@@tidepodpadthai2633 bojack "seventeen minutes" "i am the biggest victim at the hands of bojack horseman" " 'don't' choke women" horseman did nothing wrong???
Thank you for what you say at the end about how Hollyhock cutting Bojack out was the right choice. It's maddening how many people act like she is wrong for doing this. I say this in reference to one particular youtuber; cutting toxic people from your life is _not_ cowardice. It's bravery. Hollyhock is _brave_ and I'm so glad you see it that way.
And this is why Johnny 2 Cellos is the only place I get my Bojack commentary
I didn't know people that people think Hollyhock was wrong for this. Her response makes total sense. I greatly appreciate Johnny. He always handles these topics with care and respect.
Yeah I like shady doorags videos but his take on hollyhock made me look at him differently ?
@@BrokenWings122 oof wait till you see the Penny and Diane videos. Pretty much all his videos of the women Bojack horseman characters (except Sara Lynn) are sus
@@BrokenWings122 to be fair, he said hollyhock did make the RIGHT choice for herself but according to shady doorags, she should've at least got to know the full context from Bojack instead of listening to a 3rd party before making that decision.
However I still disagree with him. It's easy to get frustrated as an audience, but if we were in Hollyhock's shoes, I understand that she would be terrified of approaching Bojack. No matter what the circumstances are,Hollyhock made the right choice for her own safety.
While I do think Hollyhuck brought out a better side of Bojack, she had every right to decide she didn’t want him in her life anymore. She’s similar to Herb in the sense they’re both very grounded characters and had a tough decision to make in regards to Bojack, but they made the ones that was best for them
From Bojack’s perspective, Hollyhock cutting him out of her life was a massive wake up call. I feel like it was the best thing for both her and Bojack at the time.
Of course it’s sad that Bojack eventually relapsed but I feel like his separation from Hollyhock will put him on the right track in the future. Or he’ll Bojack things up again, actually the latter is most likely
I honestly want to know more about Hollyhock. Her moment talking about the "voices" by the pool just hit so hard for me and a lot of people. She was right to distance herself from someone incredibly toxic like BoJack, even though he's working through that.
Is he really though?
@@casjordan5756 he was in a weirdly better place in jail than he was beforehand, better than he had been in years. but he is aware of his capacity to 'bojack stuff up again' but he's chagned a good bit. it will be a fight he'll have the rest of hsi life.
Missed out on the opportunity to add the Todd clip, "that's a terrible thing to say to a baby!" hahahaha this is another incredible time line video, so grateful for all the bojack content!
People are always upset that Hollyhock cut Bojack off without knowing the full context of the situation,but they never really try to understand from her perspective. During her time with Bojack, she saw how toxic he was to his own mother, had drug problems, literally told Hollyhock to break into someone's house and on top of all that got drugged and fainted while staying in his home. Not to mention, Hollyhock now has 2 different sources mentioning Bojack's behaviour around young women. Most would want her to confront Bojack but it's understandable that she's scared at this point. It was commendable how she did what she thought was best for her own mental health.
She was also aware of his sleazy behavior with young women, expressing discomfort and shock that the guy slept with the president of his fan club. She also sarcastically apologized that he has to talk to women he was shitty to. She also didn’t really want a relationship at first either and BOJACK was the one to get her to stay, while also at the same time ignoring and belittling her. Even though she was open to having him as a sibling, it’s obvious that she still kept him at a distance.
Not excusing Bojacks actions at all but Hollyhocks decision always seemed cold. He was pretty transparent from the jump that he was in a bad place, had been a womanizer, and continued making mistakes. She originally pleaded to stay, It also wasn't his fault she was drugged. It was only after he went to rehab, became a professor, a better person ( which even she acknowledged ), and be a positive supportive presence in her life did she cut him out after finding out what happened. His only living family, cut him out. It's a question of is redemption & forgiveness deserved. Personally I like to think so if someone is genuinely trying. So good for HH own well being, but how BJ was a bad brother in the past, she became a bad sister.
It’s the fact she tries to get Bojack to play nice to his unfit mother while living in his house. Knowing how much Bojack hates this. I don’t hate her for cutting out Bojack. I just hate how she tries to get him to reconnect with his mother.
Even without the interviews exposing Bojack, that one episode where they were supposed to have some bonding time but Bojack spent the whole day dragging her around town and doing illegal and dangerous things just to get his hands on drugs while she was STILL dealing with the trauma of overdosing herself was horrible behavior.
As much as I am glad to see Boj possibly on a better path at the end of the show, Hollyhock had every right to cut him off. Even before her finding out about his questionable behavior with younger women, he really didn't treat her well at all.
Honestly it’s great that they showed that she really cut him out of her life, it’s realistic and shows that not everything will be, forgiven and your bad actions, no matter how old they are, can and may have an bad influence on your current life.
It also shows if Bojack has someone close, he may care and doesn't have some personal trauma he can be a normal person.
It's still pretty sad that so many people critique Hollhocks decision to cut Bojack from her live. Many seem to forget that while we followed Bojack around over the entire show, she didn't. From her perspective the decision was rational. It's obvious that it wasn't easy for her.
Literally everyone sided with her tho. There are VERY few comments siding with, or even just pitying Bojack. Many even find "empowering" what she did, and most comments are cookie-cutter
@@XMarx-it1yj feel like part of it is that hollyhock brought the better side out of bojack than most others and while he definitely put her into weird situations... lets face it she's a bit of a weirdo herself and probably didn't mind the escapade.
But i feel what really hurts us is that out of all of his relationships, he did not lose hollyhock via his own actions at all. And in soem small ways, he lost her to slander.... Semi slander.
He far from acted like a mature adult and had many a sin on his back, he was NOT responsible for the actions of those teens back in the day. He was basically just following along. His guilt there was only in not being an adult there, not in them getting durnk and getting into trouble.
Though he was 100% responsible to accepting the advances of a fucking teenaged girl. it was....... Yea. He deserved that.
But those teens.... I hate that dude a lot, he basically is a liar who put all the bullshit he did on the adult present.
It sucks people were criticizing Hollyhock for leaving. Yeah it hurt us for the audience cause we loved her, but also in story wise, she made an understandable decision to cut Bojack out of her life. Also would kill for a Hollyhock spinoff with her 8 gay polyamorous dads
I never understood why people made Hollyhock the bad guy when she cut Bojack out of her life. Like, it made sense. Bojack, though a great character, is not the best person. And we, the audience, knows this.
Hell WE should know it better than any one
This title is literally 100/100 characters 🥵
Lol
Great review love your channel ❤️
Was. R.I.P OG title
I really liked how he put off reading the letter long after it was obvious what had happened, because "as long as I haven't read this letter she's still in my life"
I always felt like we were missing a second half to the final episodes of Bojack. I think it ended perfectly but I would for them to continue the show in a miniseries or a final movie, perhaps showing how the people who knew him like Hollyhock dealing with her life after the Sarah Lynn interview.
I think it was smart of the writers to give the audience the same amount of closure that BoJack got. We had to endure the situation through his perspective. That being said, I really want a Hollyhock sequel miniseries
I'm pretty sure it was supposed to be two seasons instead of an elongated sixth season. Those extra eight episodes woulda been great for fleshing things out
@@pdfbanana It really bums me out that Bojack was cut short most likely to the studio unionizing. I still hope one day they can pull off a final movie El Camino style.
If we ever get a Bojack follow-up, it probably shouldn't be about Bojack.
Heck, why not Todd? Everyone else's story had some sort of finality, but with Todd it feels his wacky misadventures will continue.
@@chaoticneutral7976more about Bojack's life. Nah, the whole point with Bojack is his toxicity is a cycle he cant control. He only gets incrementally less toxic with each cycle, but we probably wont see him fully end that cycle until his deathbed. But seeing the stories of the other characters absolutely. It was really interesting how the show forshadows the fates of the characters: Todd is no longer a slacker and has a good life independent of Bojack, meanwhile Gina's PTSD will most likely ruin her career prospects, and then you have Penny who is in the middle. It shows how far ranging the impact of a toxic person can be despite you cutting them out in your life.
What scares me most is Beatrice recognizing Hollyhock. That means she kept track of Holly after she was given away. Probably saw her from a far or a picture of Holly growing up, and thats how she knew. "God you look just like him", Butterscotch. Might be a strech but Beatrice possibly saw Holly as another one of her 'kids' too, even if it wasn't biological. She had such scorn for Butterscotch at that point that she could never love Bojack properly because she saw so much of his father in him, but that second child, Hollyhock. Taken away from her mother, and the father, the father that seemed to taint everything, and so Hollyhock was spared in Beatrice's eyes.
I know it means literally nothing, and statistically there are hundreds of people where this is the case, but it really fucks with me that I was born extremely close to the canonical birth date of Hollyhock, and I also grew up in Wichita Kansas. She is easily my favorite character in the show and I find her struggle very likable and relatable. Fantastic video.
You're right! A TV show about Hollyhock would be fun. Connecting with her mother, learning about Butterscotch, maybe or maybe not reconnecting with Bojack, and so many dads!! It would be interesting to see the world of Bojack Horseman explored through a character with a more positive outlook. Maybe not 6 seasons interesting, but it would be a fun way to revisit Hollywoo / Hollywoob.
I love how her story ends. From our perspective in the audience, it might seem sudden and sad, but it’s a super empowering thing for her to do. I LOVE it.
even if it was partly built on a lie?
the dude lied to hollyhock. true he did nothing adult like when he was with them, but the girl was already oding on alcohol even before he came in and he didn't exactl do anyhting except not act like an adult and stop them.
his sin was accepting that daughter's advances, but that was his only sin there, if an extreme one indeed. the rest, was them, yet they pinned the trauma alll on bojack to an unfair degree. Lying little fucker.
...... Perhaps, there would have been a separation anyway, but there would be some closure.
Out of all of his relationships, he was desperate to keep his relationship with hollyhock as untainted as humanly, and horsely, possible. she came in when most of his bridges had been and that season had been the only happy ending the series ever got. he managed to keep hold of this relationship....... And someone else piosoned her againt him.
think people are more angry about that part and the lack fo closure, rather than at her herself.
Hollyhock saved herself. Let’s be real, she’s the only member of the whole family with a chance.
I have watched bojack A MILLION times and not once did i notice 9:17 where Hollyhock got skinner, sorted all the change and was flipping through the channels. Your attention to detail never fails to amaze me!
Remember how Sara Lynn was like a daughter to him and how he sealed her fate, Hollyhock only faired better due to her better support system
................
and because he never did anything to harm her?
@@taddad2641 right because getting her to go on a drug discovery dangerous mission on the ONE day they have together when she was not even in college yet is not harmful!
Hollyhock was such an important character. People are allowed to leave your life of all you do is make them feel bad. She tried for BoJack so many times and she kept getting hit back whether through found information or things BoJack directly said and the way he acted around her.
Just like Gina, she didn’t want BoJack to be her story, she wanted her own.
This show is so good. When BoJack was going to be canceled over Sarah Lin, I felt, "No, he's grown so much", but then I realised that he needed to be held responsible for his actions. Such a great show about a toxic person.
I didn't see anyone mention this but I really like in particular that we the audience don't get to know what was in Hollyhock's letter. She cut Bojack out of her life completely and that includes us. People get upset that they can't pick apart her letter and find a way to blame the victim, but honestly what wording she used really doesn't matter. Her action was clear.
This video is perfect timing! I was just scripting a video on why Hollyhock made the right choice by cutting Bojack out of her life. This video makes the timeline really easy to follow in terms of how her feelings changed overtime. As always, great video! Can't wait for the next one.
Seeing Hollyhock go to school and seem to live a good life is honestly the most uplifting thing about this show
She's a good and sensible person and deserves good things, completely opposite to BoJack
Yes, i've so been waiting for you to do a Hollyhock timeline Johnny! Hollyhock is yet another one of my all time favorite side characters in the Bojack Horseman series i loved every second she was on the show (Except for the bad times) right up to when she cut Bojack out of her life that is...and i'm glad you put Hollyhock's full name in the video title, i swear every time i heard a character say her full name it made me think-"Wow, that takes the phrase mouth full to another level"
Ikr, Imagine if someone made a try not to laugh video about them trying to say Hollyhock's fullname 10 or 12 times fast, That would just be hilarious.
Omg, I can’t believe I forgot about her seeing Pete repeat. That must have been so traumatic for Peter and the fact that he had to deal with a poisoned teen gf by himself after the trusted adult in the situation abandoned him.
Speaking as someone who’s had to cut out a person I loved very much because they were just a toxic person I really like how they handled Hollyhock and her decision in the show. Yes it was very sad for Bojack but at the same time I have no doubt it was just as hard for Hollyhock because they made it clear that she was struggling with how much she cared for him. But she reached her breaking point and did what was best for her even though it was a painful choice. It’s sad but sometimes we can love someone but they’re still bad for us and we can’t be around them anymore. I hope she still remembers the good parts of him fondly and how much she cares for him.
Love seeing the support for Hollyhock here. I think this touches on another important aspect of Bojack's recovery because he WAS getting better. Even with the relapse, Bojack was trying to become better. However, the direction with Hollyhock is genius because a lot of the other commenters are right. Hollyhock had every right to cut ties with someone as toxic as Bojack despite the familial connection as well as how hard that decision was to make AND highlighted that despite Bojack getting better, he Hollyhock had too much negative history with Bojack and just because he was getting better didn't mean Hollyhock owed him a continued connection. Just brilliant writing from the Bojack team
This was an amazing exploration of the way BoJack unintentionally and intentionally screwed up Hollyhock's life and gave him an extreme wakeup call he needed, not to mention proved to him that not everyone was willing to stick around while he continued to be bad news. Hollyhock didn't need validation from Bojack to be a good character, or even a good daughter or sister. While he did give her some good things, he left more of a negative footprint on her.
How about a Penny Carson timeline next?
One small thing I noticed about Hollyhock is how her appearance strangely enough matches what we know abot Butterscotch's mother's appearance. Butterscotch told Beatrice his mother had a diamond on her head, like she did, and that he "saw that on a picture once". Then he told Henrietta she had hair similiar to his mother, and once again, mentioning seeing that on the picture. Now, Hollyhock clearly has Henrietta's hair, and she also has a diamond on her head.
Butterscotch never met Hollyhock but I wonder how he would react since she has both of these features that strongly reminded Butterscotch of his mother. What if Hollyhock is actually a spitting image of her biological grandmother?
One thing I find interesting is how Hollyhock is introduced shortly after Sarah Lynn's death which possibly is a symbolic way of giving Bojack another chance at being a father figure (especially since the Ethan Around show did not continue).I'd like to think that Hollyhock could have been the person who would have helped Sarah Lynn change her trajectory for real had she been introduced a little earlier just like she is largely the reason Bojack and Beatrice even had a nice moment right before her death. The feels
A really interesting thing to note! In the second episode of bojack horseman, Butterscotch and Beatrice are in a fight and there is a comment about how Buttersotch isn’t married to his assistant. He responds with that if his assistant also refused to get rid of the baby like Beatrice, that he would’ve. This reveals that Buttersotch, after Beatrice talks to Henrietta, has no clue of what actually happened and died without knowing. I caught that the other day and I can’t stop thinking about it. Just found it super interesting that they give us that in the 2nd episode.
I would probably agree, but that conservation takes place decades before Hollyhock was conceived. Bojack was a young child, probably around 5 or 6 at the time, while Hollyhock was born when Bojack was 36 and already moved out of the house. So there’s about a 30 year difference between these two events.
And I don’t believe that Butterscotch was ignorant to the fact he had a child out of wedlock either, Henrietta always seemed to want to carry the pregnancy to term. But it didn’t seem like he cared either way.
hollyhock being 17, the same age as penny really puts things to perspective.
17 is a weirdly important number in the show.
He took 17 minutes to call for help for Sarah Lynn, which is too long/too much.
He admitted to not being able to resist sleeping with a 17 year old, which is not (old) enough.
It's an interesting comparison, idk if it was intentional or not.
I adored Hollyhock, loved what she added to the show and for BoJack’s character, and loved her design and Aparna Nanchurla’s performance, def one of my favorite characters. As much as it hurt she definitely made the right choice in cutting BoJack out of her life, she’s not responsible for a middle aged horse man’s bs
poor hollyhock. she ultimately lost a brother and gained trauma, ptsd, panic attacks, and other repercussions
I think it was very wise of her to get away from him when she did and was even nice enough to let him know about it and not ghost him.
Fun fact: the original script of this video was only half the length before Johnny included Hollyhock's last names.
Hollyhock was very much in the right. On top of the fact that he keeps an uncomfortable hold on the women in his life, it's almost like being strangled by a boa. As long as everything's good in Bojack's world, he pretty much shoos everyone and doesn't think of the consequences. But the second he's struggling he reels them in tight.
He showed up EVERYWHERE at campus Hollyhock was and boundaries were clearly not his strong suit. Not giving Bojack an out or way to contact her is perfect because until he learns
Thank you for being a large-reaching voice of reason with Hollyhock cutting Bojack out of her life. I grew up around toxic men and fell into some seriously terrible relationships that were just me falling into my savior complex that came from my parents negligence. The warning signs that Hollyhock ignored to find her mom and spend time with Bojack as her believe biological dad were so painful to watch. All through season 4 I was absolutely freaked out about Hollyhock being where she was because I was just waiting for him to hurt her, take advantage of her, or neglect her in some way. And really, all three of those things did end up happening. But the difference, and why I think a lot of people defended Bojack, was because it wasn't AS bad as other moments in Bojack's life.
But then, beyond what Hollyhock herself went through, comes to light and Hollyhock is supposed to do...what? Live around a person she doesn't know all that well who is really clingy and kind of creepy outside of being a long distance blood relationship.
So when I went through videos about Hollyhock, hoping to see people rallying around such a strong and cohesive display of autonomy, I was shocked to see so many of the videos and comments calling her awful names and disgracing her as "another useless woman". These people assumed Hollyhock was responsible for Bojack's emotions or reprehensible actions like she hadn't been the young adult and literal child during EVERY situation she found herself faced with. At, at most, 22 years old, Hollyhock isn't responsible for anyone but herself and her education. Bojack has lived more than two of her life times with so many opportunities to stop doing terrible things and continued to do so even after moments that should have been the worst moment of his life (choose one, it doesn't matter honestly), and most of them at the expense of women.
Hollyhock is one of the strongest characters I have seen in a long time. She truly needs to be seen as the standard of writing autonomy for young women.
YES!!! so true it's so sad that people have been blaming hollyhock
She’s literally a teenage girl, she’s still kinda a kid. She’s supposed to be focusing on growing up. She felt like she needed to get away from Bojack, because of the toxicity he might pit her with. Sure, this happened when he was trying to be better. And yes, that makes it a little sad. But Bojack is not a good person. Can we really blame a young woman for not wanting him in her life?
I would love to see a spin-off of Hollyhock's POV and watch how she grew up and what kind of person she becomes in her adult life.
Like what was she studying for? How did she deal with covid? Did she become successful or is she struggling due to her trauma like so many other people do? I wanna knooooowwww
I relate to Hollyhock having to cut ties with someone she cared about for her well being. I had to cut ties with my very best friend a year or so ago including changing my number and blocking on social media due to increasing drug and alcohol problems. After recognizing that he wasn’t going to make the changes he promised he would, I was continuously being pressured to do things I wasn’t comfortable with. I went down a very slippery slope and luckily I was able to climb out of it, but unfortunately I had to cut people loose to get out of the hole I dug for myself. 😔
I loved Hollyhock because she seemed to be someone that made Bojack genuinely put effort to make happy rather than being used to benefit him. It was crushing that we didn’t get “closure” from Hollyhock but it’s completely understandable. Like if you found out your full grown brother or uncle dated a teenager and slept with his costar daughter figure battling drug addiction, is it actually possible to be like “well maybe we can talk this out”. It’s not that Bojack can’t learn from his choices but what he’s already done is terrible and any context would just be an excuse. I’d not want to be associated with him too..
Am I the only one who wants him to do this video again but using Hollyhocks Manheim-Manheim-Guerrero-Robinson-Zilberschlag-Hsung-Fonzarelli-McQuack's FULL NAME every time? I can't be the only one.
i just finished rewatching bojack yesterday! i'm glad others are still active in the fandom & making amazing content
Everytime I finish rewatching, I want to watch it all over again 😅 it's just such a good show
Hope there's a sequel or spinoff about her honestly. I just need more of this show in my life xD
Hollyhock my beloved, shes a very well written. Shes very much in the right for cutting BoJack out, and it's her right to reconnect or not, if she does? Cool, and if she doesnt especially after the series finale? Shes in her right. Same goes with anyone and everyone in BoJacks life who wants to/has cut him out.
What makes me sad about this is that she is one of the few people Bojack seemed to genuinely care for as family. He was distraught over her overdose and angry at his mother for instigating it and wanted more than anything for her to know the truth of her family even when he was shunned by her dads. I don’t blame her for cutting him out but it does make me a little sad since she seemed to be a genuinely good thing for him.
I love hollyhock so much and I think she’s really strong. I do wish we had something more about Henrietta after hollyhock met her. I also love her polyamorus dads
It's hard...my family pretty much did that to my eldest sister, she was so toxic and we all did so much. Soon there was silence from both ends, it was for the best.
As someone who has also made the decision to cut out a toxic person from my life ( I.e. my birth dad) I totally and completely understand how hard it is to do so. For a long time there was the excuse of " oh he's your family, this , that, and the third." But at a point I stopped making excuses and stopped listening to his. I did what I felt was best for me and while I felt guilty for a bit, I honestly felt so much weight off my shoulders. I respect Holly for doing what she did to take care of herself.
I love Hollyhock. She made a very hard decision and handled it so well. I love that we don't see her again or know what was next for her. The not knowing is its own sort of closure.
Another point about Hollyhock cutting out Bojack, there were two instances where people (both younger women) needed medical attention due to drugs/alcohol (which Bojack also provided), and in both instances, he was resistant to getting medical attention. He only did in the prom incident because the kids pressured him, then left a teenager to deal with it at the hospital. And in Sara Lynn's case, he waits almost 20 minutes to create an alibi before getting her help, which very well could have cemented her death. And given his track record, would he have gotten help for Hollyhock when she overdosed if he knew it was an overdose? And that was only one of the toxic patterns that even after he began to change, he refused to acknowledge and take responsibility for.
I think a part of the reason that some audience members felt upset but Holly cutting off Bojack was the feeling of second hand cut off. Sometimes when you cut people out of your life that means some others may go with them through no fault of their own or because they choose to take the side of the person being cut off. I feel a lot of people will side with Bojack no matter what because they relate to him and like him think the consequences of the past shouldn't effect their present and future even if they haven't done much or anything at all to make up for the things that they have done or even acknowledge them outside of a sense of self loathing. Everything Bojack did to better himself was just for him and him alone and he was more than happy right up until the end of the series to bring others with him when he inevitably spiraled out of control again. Hollyhock made the right call, and even though it hurt as an audience member know there is no way we'll see her again I felt happy for her.
Think about it, Hollyhock didn't know about Bojack's history with young women until someone told her. She sees him at her game, but she doesn't know that he's there for her and assumes he's there to pick up women, at that point she decides to cut him out of her life
Well sarah lynn was like a daughter to him too, and she saw he slept with the president of his fan club, she knew he went to prom with some girl. She was probably thinking about her own safety
10:35 Wait..I never understood this part to mean that Henrietta had been trying to reach Hollyhock the entire time. That pink envelope is what Hollyhock was putting together to send to the adoption agency (you can see it in the scene when Hollyhock is talking about the Chandler's List SNL skit). She sent it to the adoption agency, which then sent it to Henrietta (who was in the care of Beatrice cause I guess she was a live-in maid, or that's the address Beatrice gave the hospital when Henrietta had the baby). However because Beatrice no longer lived there, it was sent to her senior's home, and then ultimately to Bojack's house which was the new address they had on file for her after being kicked out of the senior's home. There's a moment in a S4 episode (I can't remember which one) where Bojack tells Beatrice she has some mail from the senior's home or something, and picks up the pink envelope. So yeah..I'm not too sure where you got the idea that Henrietta was trying to reach Hollyhock. Can you explain that a bit? o.o I'm a little intrigued cause I never took this whole plot point to mean that.
I think you're right, I might has misunderstood that
I love Hollyhawk, I had to cut out some family I was close to for some days dangerously similar predatory behaviour. it made me feel so much better to see her overcome that part and distance herself from something that was toxic and hard.
I think it’s nice how earlier in the series, we see Bojack talk about how once he and his mother are gone the whole bloodline will be erased, and talks about how cursed his family is, but hollyhock subverts that and leads a healthy and hopeful life with a good support system and upholds boundaries despite everything
Technically Hollyhoock is not Beatrice's daughter. she is the daughter of Butterscotch and Henrietta Platchkey (which makes her and Bojack half-siblings). So the Bojack's maternal side of the family will become extinct with Bojack's death.
The way I see it the next time Hollyhock comes into contact with Bojack might be when she reads a book that Bojack wrote while in prison or after prison. Then finally when she goes to his funeral. She'll likely go for the closure. I mean it will give her the chance to actually meet up with Bojack's inner circle.
Not knowing exactly what she said is what has a lot of people uncertain about Hollyhock. We assume it was just BoJack but what if it was entire family she wanted nothing to do with. Ever since she found out about her father things got worse for her. Beatrice poisoning her with weight loss pills, her father using her mother, and BoJack's history getting revealed. When you add together all the family issues coming from the Horseman history compared to her foster family cutting loose the Horseman family was probably the best after trying for so long.
I love this series but would love to see one more after Bojack on character actress Margo Martindale. Her timeline in the series is beyond ridiculous and would be really fun to see
I like to think that hollyhock stayed in contact with Peter and after graduation maybe moved closer to her birth mother to have a better relationship with her
HollyHawk leaving BoJacks life was the right call it's just hard for us as the audience see BoJack lose someone important in his life again and it hits after he was geniunely trying to change his ways when it happened
Thank you for defending Hollyhock's decision to cut Bojack off. I don't care what any says, she had every reason to be uncomfortable around her brother. Just because they're family doesn't mean she owed Bojack anything, no second chances, not even an explanation. And I feel like Bojack himself would agree.
Life isn’t a sitcom... real life relationships don’t always get closure. It’s not your place to seek closure from someone who’s removed you from their life, as much as you might want to and feel as though everything wasn’t your fault.
I will always feel bad for people who have super long names like that. I can't imagine having to do paper work with writing the full name multiple times.
i love your final synopsis on hollyhock cutting out bojack and while yes "we'd all love for hollyhock to forgive and reconnect with bojack" i hope we NEVER get a series where they do this. bojack NEEDS to be taught a lesson, jail and fines can often be slaps on the wrist of the rich and famous which is WHY bojack repeatedly made damning and horrible decisions on his part and under his name several times over. that is WHY hollyhock cutting him out ACTUALLY feels like a real punishment for his actions. i believe in forgiveness but speaking as an overly forgiving person who has let too many people stay after hurting me and also as a person who as a child used to struggle with not letting go of people who have left you; bojack & hollyhock was one of the first real and painful but necessary lessons of how people leave eachother represented in media (in my opinion its the anti-ross from friends situation). sometimes you fallout good and stay friends, sometimes you drift apart by chance and circumstance, sometimes you tear apart in a mutually evil way.... but the hardest hitting is when they leave you without closure without being able to speak without being able to ask why or when you have to do that to someone else KNOWING how much it will hurt... and you have to accept it and do it anyway. it would dampen the the gut punching impact of that message if hollyhock let him back in. i hope hollyhock and bojack never get that closure and while closure is nice and rare to have i personally prefer it the way it is because its more accurate to real life in that closure IS a rare and nice commodity but is SELDOM ever afforded to us.
the thing is, he lost hollyhock for reasons outside of his control in that case. While related to his sins, they were revealed by a untrustworthy third part, and one who actually lied and framed that whole escapade was bojack's doing. The true sin was...... accepting the advances in the end.
she was poisoned against him. While yea she might have actually separated from him for real anyway after it all got revealed... in that universe she would have at least talked to him one last time, at least. A closure there at least.
Bojack did all he could to leave his relationshipw ith hollyhock as untainted as possible. and yet lost her anyway...... and i feel like that broke him deeply more than anything else.
@@taddad2641 that might be well and good but if im remembering correctly the girl he bought alcohol for was a minor and he was almost forty. if i found out my "dad" or even my uncle did that with that age gap... im sorry to say but my contact with him would probably be close to if not completely "ghosted"
I think what I find sad is given Hollyhock's perspective it TOTALLY makes sense that she would cut Bojack out, she saw the good in him and she ignored clear red flags because she wanted him to be better and knew he could be better.
Even after hearing what he did that night, she dwelled on it, but didn't cut him off. She wanted to figure out how she felt and she had a lot of stress piling up alongside him inserting himself into her college life, which just stressed her out more.
In that time, Bojack really was changing, of course he was still fully capable of what he had done before, but he was at a moment in his life where he was making positive changes, had learned a lot and figured out a lot about himself. Not perfect, but still. The bomb dropped and she made her decision which wasn't bad to do. From her perspective.
There was no real reason outside of 'family' to keep him in her life and there was a lot of reasons to remove him. Temporarily cutting him off, even, would've been a GIFT to him. Bojack fucked up and it came back to bite him, it always does. That was the worst decision of his life and honestly one of the most positive, simply because he got what he deserved.
I LOVE Bojack and it hurt to see all the shit he put himself through. I was seething at times seeing him just make the most *horrible* decisions and it had me captivated.
But wrapping back to the beginning, I find it sad because by the end of the series, I seriously think Bojack is going to be better. There will be hiccups, but he really, changed. I'm sure he still has some problems, but I know he'll be okay up until he dies. If only Hollyhock knew what we did, she might have been able to continue and form a much healthier relationship with Bojack that had no toxicity!
Hollyhocks are my favorite flower- if you haven't seen them before look them up. Cool character. Thanks for the video!
I can´t undesrtand how people get so mad at her for choosing being apart from Bojack, like, that's the healthiest thing to do, but people are butthurt becase she made Bojack sad.
not long after he discussed Hollyhock being drugged, I got an ad that said “looking for the perfect product to help maintain your horse’s weight and condition?”
Man, Hollyhock wasn't even eighteen years old while dealing with a fifty-something year old brother's nonsense? Nah, she didn't need Bojack in her life that badly. Her life has barely started. Good for her.
The fact that I had to argue this against someone who said that Hollyhock needed to be there for Bojack and she was in the wrong for not supporting him
@@missing_name WHAT? She's a child bro! Hollyhock was 17 years old when she first appeared on the show. The hell was she supposed to do? Be an untrained therapist? 😭
@@lemon-pop2923 Guess so 🤷♀️. But fr, how is a 17 year old supposed to be in charge of a 50(?) year old man. Bojack not having a support system is due to his own fault, and Hollyhock had no obligation to be that support system.
@@missing_name Agreed. She absolutely did not. Hollyhock is not responsible for Bojack's actions or what he decides to do with his life. Bojack is. After Sara Lynn's death I'd say Hollyhock did the right thing. I mean if he wasn't willing to call 911 to save somebody's life because he didn't want to get in trouble and it was his own FRIEND? If he couldn't do that for a friend, would he have done the exact same thing to Hollyhock, his own sister? NAWWW. Best not left wondering, I'm glad she got out and kept it pushing.
I feel like we would be best friends. Like I’m obsessed with all the same shows😭😭😭
My post-BoJack timeline is something like this: he gets out of prison, takes Mr. PB up on his offer to stay with him until he can get a place of his own, and takes PC up on her offer to refer him to a good agent. She is as good as her word and BoJack's new agent gets him a spot on a comedy tour with other 80s-90s era comedians called "We Were Funny Once, Weren't We?" He spends a year on the road and does well enough to be offered a residency in a downtown Vegas casino, which he accepts. He does not return to LA. He could cross paths with Hollyhock there- plenty of reasons for a young girl to go to Vegas: bachelorette parties, 21st birthday celebrations, etc.
The best line in my opinion comes from Todd via Hollyhock (paraphrasing)
Hollyhock: ever since I was a baby, people told me I look like BoJack Horseman
Todd: that’s a *TERRIBLE* thing to tell a child!
Pete Repeat guiding a panicking Hollyhock through her panic attack is actually so sweet
bro i love your videos sm, especially episode breakdowns. i have watched bojack 7 times all the way through, and i watched all your bojack videos twice
B:"are you and Tawny in a fight?"
H:"yeah, but i still love her"
B:"are we in a fight?"
H:"yeah, but... Yeah."
Oof
The title ! I already know this is gonna be another hit, thank you Johnny!
"I think I only have one more to do - Bojack himself" Jesus! Where would you even begin? How long would that be?
Hollyhock is the example what Beatrice or Bojack could be if they had happy and HEALTHY family environment
YES this is a wonderful video, and Im glad you pointed out people who criticize her for the choice because she had every right to cut him off and seeing people demonize her over that is bizarre.
But I also would love her of all the characters to be able to have her own side series since it's obvious that a lot of her life doesn't really rely on Bojack yet there's pieces that stand out as interesting as a stand alone and a sideseries (example: her interactions with Henrietta, Id love to see her and how she is)
It literally makes no sense. How don't they realize how uncomfortable Hollyhock must have felt hearing how her half brother interacted with minors? I get liking a character, but that doesn't mean agreeing with and defending everything they do. Bojack was very flawed and did awful things to people in his life. :/
Bojacks long lost half sister, that’s actually pretty incredible when you get around all the drama that went into it.
Hollyhock need to do what was best for her mental health and was it right to do cut BoJack off with a letter instead of a phone call or in person or not even tell him. It was her decision and she made what she felt was the best decision to inform BoJack because she didn't owe him a reason or anything. Like you said Johnny, Hollyhock was put thru the ringer and came out with some damage, minimal yes but damage still. I loved the idea you proposed of doing a squeal series from Hollyhock perspective and seeing how she navigated her life post-BoJack and to see if she decides to reach back out. I personal feel it is in Hollyhock nature that she would seek BoJack out after several years or decades of silence. Would she regret not being in his life who's to say but I almost certain that Hollyhock time seek BoJack even if its one last in person or phone conservation.
I don’t know who needs to hear this but just because you cut someone out of your life, or distance yourself that doesn’t mean you have to hate them. You can still love them, it’s ok and it doesn’t make you weird. It’s only natural after all, I myself still love my step mother even though she did awful abusive and neglectful things to me all through my childhood. I’ll never trust her again no, but I forgive her. And I still love her. It doesn’t make you a bad person, it just means you want what’s best for you.
I love you all, stay hydrated and get adequate sleep.
This is such a good video! Great job!!
Thank you!