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Why didn’t you talk about Torbjorn’s ability to buff his speed, health and fire speed? Or his Ultimate ability that has some of the best area denial in the game? You were very surface level with his kit. Also, his primary is amazing at damage. His headshot damage is insane, and his secondary fire will chew through most characters health, especially with his overload buff active.
Something too is that torb is said to have made and bulit all this crazy shit but its never actually used in game except his turret and an objective to cap/push while engi has also bult alot of crazyshit and they made those into the unlocks and hats you can get in game
@@DyonisX Technically, yeah. Kind of. Demoman's real name (Tavish Finnegan DeGroot) is referenced in both a Demoman Crown Cosmetic named "Prince Tavish's Crown" and a Control Point Medieval Map called "DeGroot Keep".
Him saying that the TF2 engineer has no name hurt me deep. Sure it's never mentioned in the game and rarely ever used by the community, but he's still Dell Conagher. Also he one-ups Torbjorn in lore too, being the one with the most canonically
What would’ve made him a better engineer was focusing on one aspect like Deeprock’s and TF2’s but trobomi tries to do everything without paying attention to what makes his counterparts good in the first place
Kinda liked Torb in his first iteration. A simple projectile slugging midget with a turret for support and coordinated assaults that can take scraps to enhance the life expectancy of his teammates, it made him actually pretty useful and even that little scrap of armor was actually damn right useful more then once and then they took the neer out of it leaving a engi with no Wrench.
I kinda wish armor addition could be re-added, like he has the scrap meter back and can either deploy the pack or just make it so when he hits you with the hammer as an ally, you start gaining armor up to a certain limit. Just something interesting
@@Warriorcat_UA-camYeah, they could have the hammer clack on a bit of armor per hit but it's loud and maybe even has voicelines so the enemy can know
Was a Torb main, made GM, stopped playing after sym became Zarya. Torb was actually a really good character at the start, it's just no one actually took the time to learn how to play. Single shots did same damage as Mcree but just had bullet drop, and their secondary did the same damage as reaper. They ruined my boy and I've never forgiven them since.
@@Warriorcat_UA-cam it was with brigs released taken from her mad e temporary then just made to heal so if it happened to torb then I don’t think we want it
Another Engineer character that should be discussed is Barik from Paladins. another Dwarven Engineer that is also a tank class character. His design is about taking the frontline and fortifying his position with turrets and barriers.
I've played Paladins, Tf2, Overwatch and DRG. Barik is also pretty shallow in the role of 'engineer', but better than Torbjorn for sure. With Forgefire talent, you could have 4 sentries scattered around the capture point and cards that synergize with his sentries so they do matter
Yes Barik also know as the "Engineer from TF2" is a pretty fun character to play. Also i consider it mandatory to use TF2 Engineer skin when playing as Barik. 🔧
Haven't watched it but I assume it is due to his buildings, the engineering part, being secondary as opposed to TF2's and DRG's Engineers, of whom the engineering parts are essential.
i mean drg sentries arent necessary at all. they help sure but they're only really good at cleaning up after you the platform gun is more necessary to drg's engineer
@@comet.x Platforms still count as a 'building,' and if you use weapon mods/overclocks like turret whip or em discharge you can absolutely main turrets; I run turret whip warthog with double turrets and become an artillery battery during swarms.
The problem with this video is that it's asking Blizzard to do something intellegently Edit: Also, fun fact, Torb is the only one of this trio to actually create more problems than he solved. He's responsible for the original Omnic Crisis. Imagine if TF2 Engie was behind Mann vs Machine, or if DRG Engie was behind the Rival Tech bots.
Dell could still be setting up some issues with assisting the administrator, if we ever get that 7th comic, but so far, nothing much. His grandfather, however, has caused most of the current issues, considering he did the life extending machines.
@@cataro_kujo you know a few decades of merc contracts does not seem equivelant to planetary war against omnicidal ai just saying even if you count mvm which I don't grey I believe made his own
Damn shame because I love Torbjorn as a character His design is great, his backstory and personality are great But because of the absolute state Overwatch is in now, he's a shell of his former self...
@@arthuruiugamesbr9777 if they wanted to lean more into the Battle Engineer aspect, then Torb should have had a risk reward to his turrets and his independance. being an engineer means solving problems, so that means Torb should be kitted to handle multiple problems that the Heroes in the game cause. being a battle engineer just makes him more focused on disposable turrets and a bolt gun, he should be given multiple types of buildings and turrets that do different types of damage (Rockets, lasers, bullets, etc)
You forgot to mention that Symmetra's turrets also have utility in slowing down enemies, and they also have much less range. Or at least that was the case in OW1, I refuse to play the cashgrab sequel and I'm unsure if it's changed in it.
In a lot of ways, I kind of feel like Torbjorn is a summation of the problems with Overwatch as a whole. So many of ideas seem to just be lifting things from other games and media without thinking about how they work in context, eventually filing off the few bits of character they had in order to chase the idea of being a big deal e-sports.
Exactly. The reason i got interested in ow was the different generes and playstyles. They took away everything that made him what he was sopposed to be, an engineer. Hes just a worse shooter.
he was never like this, obviously the first iteration of torb was heavily inspired by tf2s engineer where the majority of his dps is from his turret ESPECIALLY with ult which turned it t3, however over the years from his first rework theyve been slowly pulling back on power on his turret, when they reworked him, his ult no longer steroided his turret, and no setup was required just a set and forget tool, the turret still had impact though, but in ow2 the casual playerbase mainly wanted the turret to be nerfed so his power got shifted more into torb himself then his turrets even though it wasn't a needed nerf and also ends up just ruining his identity altogether
I can imagine the nerf from the turret was to make him pair with Symmetra since her sentries were also nerfed in damage but even then, they made it so Symm's sentries can detect enemies in their range as well as giving Symm shield and damage boost for how much the sentries damaged the enemy while Torb just recieved an autoreload when overloaded.
Giving Torb abilites to buff his sentries would be nice. Like overloading affects his sentry too, or molten core lets his sentry burn people. Something other than a throwable.
@@firstwaddledee9182 yep. Let his turret be an actual threat that needs time to setup and is worth protecting, let him give armor packs again too... basically make him the damage dealer/support hybrid he originally was instead of a pure DPS he was never meant to be
I remember playing an event vs bots where you babysit an unmoving payload for a good 10 minutes while the vehicle (that torbjorn designed) struggles to boot up and start moving. and I thought to myself, Torbjorn, you're fired.
Torb's turret doing basically no dmg is a band-aid fix. Auto aim turret is not fun for anyone and was much stronger than it was in the new 5v5 version of the game, so they had to do something. Overwatch has too many bigger problems for the devs to do anything to Torb, I'm sure they'll rework him if the game survives the next couple of years.
I feel like they could balance it by making it a projectile weapon rather than hitscan, but keeping the auto-aim. That way they can buff up the damage and make it more effective at holding close quarters choke points, but inconsistent at longer ranges because past a certain point, just walking in a straight line sideways you'd outpace the travel time of the projectiles.
ya facts hire this guy blizzard. players who learned the timing could totally dodge most shots too but it would also make them more predictable for torb to shoot at@@tau-5794
This comment kinda didn't age well, given that the game is in a massively better state than it was only a scant 6 months ago. Happy about that tho, it's more fun to play :>
wym I legit called it, they already announced they were reworking 2 dps soon, one of them is pretty much has to be torb. I think their plan was exactly what I said. Make game in better state, then worry about Torb. And they are on the torb part now after making the game better(except not rly for tank players ).Also I do not think their progress in 6 months is a lot lol. The update that put the game in a better state was a mere small numbers tweak. 6 months for that lmao. Mauga and Flashpoint gamemode are such Ls too@@zorimanar2247
As a veteran engineer of TF2 when playing torb back in the early day of OW1. Torb was amazing and his sentry and support capability was great. Giving the other 2 support classes armour first really let people know you were a team player and his no cool down sentry spawn was great for farming ult charage. Level 3 sentry was great and i was 3 game wins away from GM as a torb main. The rework made me loose most of my interest to play torb, i would argue he was nerfed so hard to what he was. I really wish they would allow previous reworks to be more of a build loadout. So you can choose to be Release day torb or the latest or how many reworks sym had.
Man i couldn't agree with you more, yet this video made me sad, not only for the waste of potential, but because you made me remember overwatch, and i main Torbjorn.
Having an ability that swaps what playstyles you are using would be a pretty solid way to differentiate Torb. With the flick of a button, maybe on cooldown, he could go from a maybe squishier, but faster and higher damage outputting combat mechanic with a weaker, but ultimately more offensive sentry to a tankier, supportive role with a tougher, upgradable sentry and maybe even the armor packs. Go crazy with the guy, he's just an under utilized meme rn
*Engi:* 🎶You got a bad case of Napoleon syndrome, but at least Mr Bonaparte knew how win some🎶 🎶Diversification is my certification teleporters and health dispensers I can make them🎶 🎶Now whip out your tennis launcher we're playing hardball you're an easy target when you're wider than you are tall🎶 🎶It won't only be your toes that I'm stepping on I know you're swedish but I still think you're a leprechaun 🎶
he was closer to the engineer theme at release, having a building he cared about and needed to keep alive like his TF2 counterpart (and the turret was an even more blatant copy than now, having 3 levels that had one gun, then two guns, then two guns and a missile launcher on top... even then though it was wimpy, but at least the frail flankers like tracers had to be mindful of it), and supporting teammates through armor packages. They graducally moved him away from it though to the point the turret is reduced to a mere afterthought (a peashooter that cant do more than finish off someone who's already critical or be an alarm system) and he cant support his team anymore with armor packages, turning him just into yet another DPS that just wants to click on heads, just with an engineer theme slapped on.
Tbh i dont think anyone gives a hell that torb had a leveling up system for his turret, i never understood the obsession with eveyeone calling him a engineer rip off when his kit works entirely different are their similarity's sure but to say hes a rip off is just dumb, cause engineers sentry and torbs turret work in two different ways tf2s sentry has a small range but can kill people quickly, torbs turret has a longer range but slower to kill, ment to pick off health at a distance
@@rav_productions2136 the levelling system was pretty meaningful: it meant that Torb needed setup time for his defense to be at its best, and that a fully upgraded turret could afford to be a bigger threat. It also meant the turret was worth the time to repair and protect it unlike the current throwaway version, especially as his ult was tied to the turret itself. And I mean come on Torb even had to salvage scrap from corpses to give armor packs, something akin to a tf2 engie grabbing ammo boxes from corpses to build his stuff, so yeah he really used to be the tf2 engie adapted into overwatch, being even if the turret never had as much punch. (And thats from someone that played both here) Nowadays he is way more different than the TF2 engineer, but id argue the character lost his gameplay identity entirely in the process and is now only a shell of what he used to be. He'd have been better off if he was still a thematic clone of the TF2 engie rather than pushing him into a dps role he was never designed for
@@thorveim1174 you know what I honestly agree and even if I don't agree with that whole clone mentality since by definition a clone is an exact copy, since Torb does alot to differentiate himself if anything he was inspired and does things way better then the engineer, but other then that, that's why I think beta Torb worked the best since he needed to work hard and collect scrap to keep his stuff up and to upgrade it, not to mention he had to choose between using his scrap between his turret or his amour packs so you had to think about how you used it. Another thing is Torb should be powerful if you leave him to his own devices and he should be an actual threat his level 3 turret should be a simi op item because of how much effort and time you had to put into the thing, the only thing I felt was truly op with the og Torb was the ult, say what you want about the turrets but it rewarded Torb for staying alive and collecting scrap and in turn it made his turret stronger But back to the ult, the reason I think it was pretty op was because it was just a get out of jail free card to get his turret to level 3 with the unlimited scrap, in my opinion a level 3 turret is something you would have to earn with great turret placement and scrap management and the way I would have done it was just have it refill his scrap bar so he was just able to get his turret to the next level cause I'm not gonna lie the original Molton core made Torb a powerhouse and I feel like giving him unlimited scrap was to much, and the thing is Torb should be one of those characters who gradually becomes more powerful as the match goes on Torb upgrading his turret should be a gradual process since unlike TF2 where engineer can get metal to upgrade his stuff from his dispenser, ammo packs or just even going back to spawn, Torb has to rely on picking up scrap from fallen enemy's and Torb had way more of the tools to do so then engineer all engineer had were secondary a shotgun and a pistol basically only good for up close combat and would always need a sentry gun next to him that's legit the whole reason why the mini sentry exists if he wanted to be more aggressive, while Torb didn't really need to by his turret all the time, was it preferable to be by his turret yeah, but at the same time Torb had way more firepower at his disposal and an actual gun that was ment for long range the rivit gun which also had an ult fire which was a shotgun up close, he did pretty good damage so he doesn't need to rely so much on his turret like engie does his sentry, he could output good damage The thing is old Torb could have worked with a couple tweaks to the kit, cause other then that he was pretty balanced because it took him time to set up his turret and to upgrade it, he could do decent damage by himself, not to mention it he had to cut into his own scrap supply to give himself or his teammates armor Say what you want about modern Torb but the only reason and why the rework exists is how blizzard legit handled Torb after the beta, they locked the level 3 turret behind an ult as well as the original molton core basically giving him two ults amd giving the turret as much health as a dam tank, They removed using scrap to upgrade your turret so you just now had to hit your level 1 Turret 5 times to turn into a level 2 and you used your scrap to make armor....and then they legit made it so he passively gains back scrap and it's just like...why? You took what made torb balanced and interesting to play and made it way to easy to get instant value out of his abilities and Blizzard basically sealed torbs fate for a rework with these dumb changes
Torbjorn was initially created to be under the "Defense" category and has received little changes from then till now. That's why he plays the way he does. He was never meant to be anything but a 2CP defense hero.
@@expepem189xl3 agree, it also feels so dirty to use because you have the effective health as 2 heavys on lvl 3, overhealed heavy on level 2, and a normal heavy on a mini. It also gives more dps to help stuff ubers
The fact that they were working on talents (RIP OW2 proper) means there should be plenty at their disposal for ability buffs/reworks. Even 2 at 2/3 damage and 150 health would be better since more angles even if less pressure in one place
Yeah!Thanks i feel it too! And if you dont activlly use it, switching on it in heat of battle could just render your base sentry less while you playing more agressive, and trying to place tp in capture the flag(I am not doing it just for tp). @@aguy3753
Also the Turret Whip mod for DRG Engineer's shotgun causes your sentry to fire a power-shot when you shoot it with your shotgun, which is similar to the first suggestion in the video.
honestly when i played torb he felt weird and i didn't know what to do with his kit, offense, defense. relieved to know i wasnt the only one who felt that way
Torb is currently in my opinion one of the most broken dps out there, with aim he has a reaper shotgun and can easily 1v1 snipers plus has a turret and area denial ulti on top of having insane atk speed and hp+armor with e
@@maninhu9837 weirdly enough I always pick Torb, def or attack, I am by no means GOOD at him but I am decent, I have yet to lose a proper 1v1 even against tanks, maybe only other torbs or roadhog but I've 1v1'd even that
@@totallynotdsl8507 I play him too, mainly as a rage pick, if your team is decent, then you can set up turrets to deal with supports and rush the tank, another thing to do is set it around corners, if the wall is thin enough the barrel can barely shoot enemies from a more covered position.
You could make torbjorn earn tf2 gear-like objects by dealing damage to enemies. This way he'd be forced to have more offensive playstyle, that would also succeed in improvement of defense.
There’s a bunch of misinformation in this one from out of date stats to basic context such as most characters who are actually threatened by turrets having poor effective ranges most notably tracer, and the fact torb is considered kind of meta while sym is a niche pick (her turrets don’t even slow anymore) who does the play style way less efficiently and is more akin to pyro.
he leaves out the fact that torb has insane close range dps with his right click, literally one of the only characters i've seen be able to gun down a healing hog with only a bit help
In my opinion, this is a decent attempt to cross analyze these three archetypal characters, but unfortunately it screams that the author's mind was made up before actually evaluating the topic. -There's little to no actual gameplay comparison of these three characters (especially beyond OW) and how they fit into their respective games (which are all very different). And the changes offered seemed to understand very little of how OW works. -Symmetra's turrets are significantly weaker and all three can be killed with a singular melee when stacked. -Torb's turret has significantly more health, torb has armor while sym has shields. -Torb is designed for poke comp and sym is brawl/rush -Torbs turret is meant to be ranged poke and pressure from sightlines while symmetra is meant to capture a small radius (objective). -I don't know how you think Junkerqueen and Mercy are as threatening as Hanzo over characters like Widow Bastion or Ana (especially with the current meta). Torb can easily be more threatening than JQ and Mercy in the right hands as well as many others. -Torb's design was originally more like the TF2 engineer before he actually came into his own unique design balancing defense (turret can shoot down from off angles on enemy pushes, torb has armor) and offense (overload abilities on turret and self, molten core ultimate) and ultimately making the character more active than TF2 engineer. -In one clip of OW, you seem to imply a sentry should be able to kill Soldier 76 in 1-2 seconds of seeing him. In my opinion, turning a corner and getting autodeleted by a turret would be terrible game design. Too automated for you, and too op for anyone in sight of it. However, you hitting your shots AND the turret shooting him would definitely be able to kill. -You're simultaneously criticizing Torb for being different and the same as the TF2 engineer which is strange to me -You didn't even attempt to touch on how the characters fit into the lore of their respective worlds and all that torb has done within OW If you don't like the characters design in a personal sense, that's totally fair and valid, especially having copied TF2. Personally, I don't care for torb much tbh and I love TF2. But to attempt to present this argument objectively is honestly just not working imo unless I'm already primed to see OW as a cheap TF2 copy which seems to be the essential tone of this video. And if you think that, well ok fair enough I guess. xD P.S. Great music choice and editing/transitions.
Even current day Barik from Paladins stand as a better Engineer than Torbjorn is. and my boi was Neutered severely through out the years after being released as part of the first eight Champions.
I haven't played Paladins in over a year but I always liked Barik. His ultimate being a small but powerful area denial tool really works thematically compared to Torbjorn's ult. And there's also the fact that, unlike Overwatch, Overwatch at least has some level of character customization.
@@LucidMakesVideos I wanted to comment about Barik from paladins! It's so wild to me, because despite Paladins being a game that rode off of Overwatch's success- and Barik even having a tf2 engineer skin, I feel like Barik has a much more distinct and solid identity compared to torbjorn, and is like. Way more fun to play. In game, Barik is a tank character- and he has the lowest base health out of every character in the tank class. In exchange, he can build turrets- multiple of them, if not contested enough- and while they don't do a lot of damage themselves, they add to his point presence and can be hard to take down when you have barik himself and two other turrets spread out attacking from three angles. Alternatively, you can keep them all close together where they're more likely to focus fire, defending them with your deployable shield and maintaining them passively with a build for keeping them alive while you're near them. He has multiple distinct playstyles thanks to Paladins' talent and card systems, and is just a super dynamic character compared to torbjorn- well deserving to stand alongside TF2's and DRG's engineers. He can be the adopted child :) tldr; Barik is paradoxically less derivative than his equivalent character from the game that everyone makes fun of Paladins for copying, and I think that's wild
While i agree. Torb is a better character overrall then sym. At least right now, sym is very map dependent while Torb can be brought out on far more maps and is one of the most successful characters rn. Actually, him being better then sym has been a pretty consistent thing. Atleast outside of low level games
As someone who likes playing Engie (both TF2 and DRG), I did try to play Torb when I used to play OW, then I learned about Symmetra and her tower defense playstyle and never looked back... at least until Overwatch died... Another thing, Torb's sentry is also outbeat by another character in OW... who was legitimately a playable sentry...
I remember the "play of the game" I got with lvl 3 sentry while I was chilling at its side. A well positioned, with a good understanding of the map line of sights and carring to not be flanked got me good memories.
I would also say that Heimerdinger from LoL is a preaty good representation of the engeneer archetype even tho he is suposed tobe a mad scientist, not an engeneer
Torb has enough lore to fit being an Engie. But over the years, they removed the supportive role he once had, turning him into a bad dps. Overwatch used to have 4 categories, but removing that has noticeably affected Torb and Bastion, putting them into a more offensive role that they weren’t fundamentally designed for. They took the Engie out of Engineer. And nobody really wants to play as a Near.
Torbjorn is a failed engineer but he does make some interesting inventions in some stories. Heck he is one of those responsible for creating the Bastion units and was the one who reworked Bastion.
Good take, I didn't realize how much missing potential torb had. I would love to see more adaptability. Symm definitely feels more like the engineer with many tools at her disposal while torb only has the one-note turret. I hope they consider doing another rework with him like sombra and roadhog recently.
how is torbjorn a straight downgrade to symmetra? his turret has *way* more range, and you can melt tanks if they try to contest you and you have overload he's way more bunkery than symm because overload gives you more survivability and you're far better at 1v1s due to having higher dps and damage reduction with armor, while symm has higher mobility and utility with tp he also has arguably better poke than symm since his projectiles are faster and can headshot not to mention their ults are completely different
Its funny watching thus vid at this specific time period, when Torb is one of the best DPS picks in the current meta. I mean, i doesn't disprove most of the points made here (except Symmetra being a better character, thats just wrong), but still, its funny.
After watching both of your videos about Engineers (both of which I think are fantastic for a channel as surprisingly small as yours), they got me thinking about the Engineer Zombie from the Plants Vs. Zombies shooter games (Garden Warfare 1, Garden Warfare 2, and Battle for Neighborville). I think it would be really interesting to compare the Techie Zed to the Engies that came before him, considering how Team Fortress 2 was a main draw of inspiration for designing the PVZ Shooter Games. Engineer is a peculiar character. You can unlock variants of him, which primarily act as a way of changing his primary weapon, he has three abilities, all of which have their own sidegrades/variants of, and his roles change throughout the shooter games, from being mainly offensive, to mainly defensive, to a weird blend of both. You've just earned a subscribe from me! Looking forward to your next video :)
There was another 2016 game by popcap that gave us a superior enginear "Plants vs zombies garden warfare 2 " its on steam and its great no joke Also great video
I remember like Torbjorn when Overwatch first came out. I haven't played in so long, I actually didn't know that he didn't have the 3 levels of turrets anymore. I remember it was one of the funniest ways to get play of game, by just using his ult to get the level 3, and go do something stupid while the turret killed the whole enemy team. It's a shame the playerbase is so whiny about things that aren't braindead easy to understand how to beat at a beginner level. Reminds me of that character that's just a turret. Can't remember the name anymore, but at launch everyone was convinced they were broken beyond belief, but after about 6 months, they were considered one of the worst characters at mid to high levels. Torbjorn's Turret was a similar situation in my mind. If you aren't familiar with how to bait a turret, as you can in TF2, a Turret probably looks incredible OP. But once you know how to deal with it, it's only a threat when it's backed with players that are preventing you from destroying it. Oh well, one more reason to never go back to Overwatch.
What about the builder from Clash Of Clans? Even though he is not categorized as an Engineer, he can create buildings for the village even with his passive nature
5:00 that's "kinda" wrong. The TF2 comics actually give us the canonical names of each merc, save for the Spy (because well... he IS a Spy, secrecy is his thing), and for Pyro (he is supposed to be a boogieman, so it also makes sense, plus it's an fan joke that he might be a woman). The Engineer is called Dell Conagher. :) PS: Below are all TF2 mercs' names. Heavy is Misha (Mikhail) Scout is Jeremy Soldier is Jane Doe Demoman is Tavish DeGroot Medic is Ludwig
Barik from Paladins is also a really fun comparison to make because, like... he kind of succeeds in a lot of the areas where Torbjorn fails, and due to the cards and talents system, he can be built and played in multiple different ways, making him pretty adaptable too He even has an actual TF2 Engineer skin, with new voicelines a custom reload animation and everything
The issue with Torb is simply that he can't compete with TF2 Engineer's power... being permanently stuck with a single stage sentry is a huge problem since you can't make it too strong or he'll just lock down games, but since it's so weak you can basically ignore the thing Having multiple stages with higher DPS will make Torb more of a threat if not dealt with, and more of a priority to defend and keep alive And while this doesn't help him differentiate himself from Engie that well it certainly gives him an actual role to play
Torbjorn is Avery good DPS in the right hands. And I'd argue he's borderline broken against tank players with his overcharged alt fire 3 tapping some tanks. Oh, a Winston dives our supports? Torbs there to fuck his shit up when he presses e. His armor overhealth also prevents him from getting one shot, unlike symmetra's flimsy overshield. There's a reason why the comp meta in season 6 of ow 2 was Orisa, Bastion, Torb, Kiri, and Brig. Nobody was dying and everyone gets smoked by Bastion. Diving, didn't work, rushing didn't work, and poking sure as hell didn't work. Your only options were to brawl with the same comp or flank with reaper and soldier. Torbjorn, as it stands, is a very strong character in ow 2. Don't believe me? Watch Dafran's unranked to top500 video of the character. However, as an engineer character, he's not really one. And because he's so good rn I don't think blizzard is gonna change him anytime soon.
When I was playing Overwatch, I played Torbjorn a bit. And I am upset they removed the armor packs, it gave him a slightly different role than Dell. Plus it let you over extend when his molten core was his ultimate, straight up captured a flag by popping that and shoving my face full of armor packs until I got back to my side.
The extra abilities and turret sounds so cool. Using your idea asa template. I can imagine the turret having 2 modes. Attack mode, the turret fires a burst of bullets, dealing around 75 FPS, but having to cool down after a couple of rounds. And a defense mode, where it deals way less damage, let's say 25 FPS, they have a constant yet slow fire rate, idk something like 1 shot a sec, but the bullets have a greater knockback allowing you to defend an area
While I can see your point around comparing the other engineer to Torb, there is some irony in saying he is a weaker version of Symmetra when Torb is honestly kinda busted in the current meta to a point that the developer said a nerf to him is coming in a later date. Symmetra is a far more of an engineer failure than Torb in my opinion. You described Symmetra turret to seem better than Torb turret, but there is a reason why Torb turret generally gets nerfed over Symmetra turret that often needed buffs to keep up with the game. And Symmetra used to have a lot of insanely gimmicky ability that is has little to no use, so much so that she had to be fully reworked twice. Back to Torb though, because a lot of Overwatch player were not a fan of Torb turret having very little skill for a lot of impact, Torb had his playstyle of "subpar DPS with a tanky turret" morphed into "tanky DPS with a subpar turret" to make Torb more "skillful". This does make him feel less like a tactical engineer and more like a Cass/Reaper hybrid with a turret. In defense of the balance team though, Overwatch has a lot of characters synergy. Your idea of giving Torb the option to optimize for offense or defense for his turret is very cool, but it can easily backfire if his tank can cycle their cooldown with the defense mode extremely efficiently. So much so that you effectively can never burst down the turret. We are kinda in a turret meta right now, so Torb's turret having a lot of potential can be very problematic.
Now do barik, his cards and talents bassicly make him borderline unlikeable, he made drogos wings and discovered gem technology which makes him easily a bigger deal then "weapon creator" and he isn't half as boring as torbjorn
1500+ game, 75% winrate Torbjorrn main chiming in with my 2 cents. I won't speak to his derivative design, because in that regard you are entirely right, but there are plenty of reasons to pick Torbjorn, even over other characters. While Symmetra fills a similar role she in no way straight outclasses Torbjorn. Starting with the guns her main fire requires ramp up to be dangerous and her charged orbs take a full second to fully charge, whereas Torbjorn even without his overload outputs similar (or higher if you include headshots) damage to Symmetra without any need to spend time charging something or ramping up. His main fire has no damage falloff and can headshot, spammed into a choke point or used to pressure a long distance threat it is far more effective than Symmetra's ranged option, albeit with the need to actually aim. Up close he is dangerous far more quickly than Symmetra since he doesn't need to ramp up his damage the way she does. As for his turret vs her sentries the biggest difference is the range they have and the time it takes to kill them, if a flanker comes across Symmetra sentries they can typically just vacate the small area they are in safely, whereas with Torbjorn's turret it covers a much wider area and takes a little more effort to remove, essentially it comes down to whether you want stronger area denial over a much more concentrated area via Symmetra or less damaging area denial over a much larger are via Torbjorn. Their E abilities are an entirely different matter, Torbjorn's making him faster bulkier and more damaging, while Symmetra's lets her get herself and her team around the battlefield. Their ultimate abilities are both very area denial heavy, with the biggest difference being whether you want to impede the enemy though a direct damage deterrent via molten core, or by making an area difficult to approach because the friendly team is hard to kill off via her shield. Identity wise Symmetra is definitely the more interesting engineer, but gameplay wise when picking between the two it comes down to whether you want higher tech potential or higher on demand raw killing potential. I won't go into pros and cons on Torbjorn vs other characters individually, but I would like to talk a bit more about things specific to Torbjorn and what I see 98% of them get wrong starting with his turret. One of the biggest issues I see with Torbjorn players is a fundamental misunderstanding of what to do with their turret, the vast majority of them plop it somewhere obvious and either are done with it or they sit there and babysit it, the more savvy players hide it a bit or occasionally move it, but they still often struggle with whether to babysit it or not. There is also the issue with most players firmly believing that the turret is pretty much the character, so they put far too much stock into protecting it. It is almost entirely a disposable annoyance or distraction, but when the situation does arise that you need to repair it in battle (not often) a tactic I have never once seen an enemy Torbjorn use is positioning yourself in between the enemy and the turret while you repair, your dumpy body is pretty much the perfect size to block most non explosive incoming fire from hitting it, but your healer can work to keep you alive while the turret shoots through you. What it boils down to is what your team actually needs from the turret, are you trying to get a bit of extra firepower in a key area, or are you needing an early warning system/deterrent against annoying flankers? I never expect my turret to pose much threat to anybody who is actually alive and capable of working the keyboard, but what it can do beautifully is point out anything that crosses into it's sightlines and poke at them a bit, giving you immediate heads up to an enemy and doing a bit of chip damage while you alert your team and decide your actions. Regardless of what you want from your turret, if the enemy immediately has a direct line of sight on it as they come through a choke or approach the point then it is in the wrong place, you always want to build it in a spot that forces the enemy to turn in a direction not facing your team in order to deal with it. The fact that he can throw his turret and it automatically builds means that you can get it into extremely cheeky spots at short notice, and while it's damage is weak it is still enough to provide enough distraction to allow you to deal with single flankers, or else adds up far more than most people think when ignored. Many people are unaware, but the turret focuses on any target you shoot for as long as it can see them, which is great for forcing healers and other squishies to back away from it's line of sight or dealing with it. There isn't much to say about his gun and his E ability, other than his gun is typically very underrated, not broken, but much better than most people realize. With a little bit of aim and accounting for travel time and the slight arc his main fire is extremely solid, particularly due to having no damage falloff. His shotgun right click actually does higher damage than Reaper's per shot, and during overload has the same fire rate as Reaper, effectively making him an extremely effective tank shredder if they are stupid enough to approach you or allow you to approach. The other lesser used function of overload is the extra health and movement speed, the move speed being the more relevant as it lets you scamper from place to place or chase a target to secure a kill just a bit faster than otherwise. His ultimate borders between solid area denial and straight game winner depending on the situation. In over time it corrals the enemy team effectively enough in the crunch that they are forced to either fight in the designated area you left open for them or just flat out die trying to spread out to avoid incoming fire. Again, not a lot to say on this one other than the fact that it is very good at doing what it was designed to do. Lastly isn't tied to his kit, but to the playstyle. Torbjorn should be played as aggressively as possible as often as is feasible, almost never tethered to your turret and constantly either on the front lines or roaming your team's space, the biggest exception is when you end up on anti-flanker duty when you mostly keep an eye out for them and stay within a few seconds o the turret. The key to winning with Torbjorn is to establish early on that you are a major threat and to adapt when they adjust their character picks to deal with you. You gotta' get up to their tank and give 'em a taste of why they shouldn't come near you. You gotta' give their healers a taste of those rivet headshots to let 'em know why they shouldn't ever let you get line of sight on them. You gotta' shut down their flankers with crafty constantly changing turret positioning and raw vigilance to let 'em know they aren't gonna have a good time in your backyard. You gotta' be constantly looking for new and unexpected turret positions to let 'em know that any new sightline they move into might contain that constantly plodding chip damage, and regardless of how they react to it or even whether they do react to it you immediately take advantage of the situation and give 'em a taste of your one man crossfire. Apologies for the full on rambling thesis of a post, but given my time with the character and personal stats on him I feel like I am qualified to throw my hat into the ring regarding hid performance. It is also a bit vexing hearing so many people being so disparaging towards Torbjorn when he has been my go to pick for years when I'm in the mood for some clean wins, or when a particular team has a few members who need to be carried across the finish line.
I severely miss when torbjorn gave out armor packs. stacking him up with sym's shield generator felt soooo good in casual. turned your entire team into friggin bullet sponge tanks, lol.
What do you think of Torbjorn? Comment below!
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Discount engineer
*Mostly Rip Off Team Fortress 2 Dell Engineer.*
@@AngrySeal8232 *Mostly Rip Off Team Fortress 2 Dell Engineer.*
Why didn’t you talk about Torbjorn’s ability to buff his speed, health and fire speed?
Or his Ultimate ability that has some of the best area denial in the game?
You were very surface level with his kit.
Also, his primary is amazing at damage.
His headshot damage is insane, and his secondary fire will chew through most characters health, especially with his overload buff active.
Something too is that torb is said to have made and bulit all this crazy shit but its never actually used in game except his turret and an objective to cap/push while engi has also bult alot of crazyshit and they made those into the unlocks and hats you can get in game
I would like to point out that TF2’s engineer does indeed have a name, Dell Conagher, it’s just never used in-game at all.
Are any of the merc names ever used?
@@DyonisX
Technically, yeah. Kind of.
Demoman's real name (Tavish Finnegan DeGroot) is referenced in both a Demoman Crown Cosmetic named "Prince Tavish's Crown" and a Control Point Medieval Map called "DeGroot Keep".
@@spooky2382 also a bottle reskin, the scottish handshake, has his name on the bottle
It’s there if you want to go more into the lore.
its used in distillery
Him saying that the TF2 engineer has no name hurt me deep. Sure it's never mentioned in the game and rarely ever used by the community, but he's still Dell Conagher. Also he one-ups Torbjorn in lore too, being the one with the most canonically
Hell yea, we stan our man Dell.
YEAH DELL
More people should check out TF2 comic tbh. It's great.
Dell Yeah!
His grandpa literally created a life-extending machine, which he managed to replicate and upgrade up to the TF2 present, how the F is he a no name?!
What would’ve made him a better engineer was focusing on one aspect like Deeprock’s and TF2’s but trobomi tries to do everything without paying attention to what makes his counterparts good in the first place
He needs another rework if this is the biggest problem people have
hi agin
@@AnarqismYOU ARE EVERYWHERE. Are you like outside my house rn dude? :(
@@smugdodofart27 yes
wdym everything all he does is build sentries, he doesnt have any support
Kinda liked Torb in his first iteration. A simple projectile slugging midget with a turret for support and coordinated assaults that can take scraps to enhance the life expectancy of his teammates, it made him actually pretty useful and even that little scrap of armor was actually damn right useful more then once and then they took the neer out of it leaving a engi with no Wrench.
I kinda wish armor addition could be re-added, like he has the scrap meter back and can either deploy the pack or just make it so when he hits you with the hammer as an ally, you start gaining armor up to a certain limit. Just something interesting
@@Warriorcat_UA-camYeah, they could have the hammer clack on a bit of armor per hit but it's loud and maybe even has voicelines so the enemy can know
Was a Torb main, made GM, stopped playing after sym became Zarya. Torb was actually a really good character at the start, it's just no one actually took the time to learn how to play. Single shots did same damage as Mcree but just had bullet drop, and their secondary did the same damage as reaper.
They ruined my boy and I've never forgiven them since.
@@Warriorcat_UA-cam it was with brigs released taken from her mad e temporary then just made to heal so if it happened to torb then I don’t think we want it
@@purplemouse320 IIRC shotgun blast was slightly better than Reaper's versus armor because the same total damage was in less total fragments
Another Engineer character that should be discussed is Barik from Paladins. another Dwarven Engineer that is also a tank class character. His design is about taking the frontline and fortifying his position with turrets and barriers.
A person of taste,culture and knowledge i see.
I've played Paladins, Tf2, Overwatch and DRG.
Barik is also pretty shallow in the role of 'engineer', but better than Torbjorn for sure. With Forgefire talent, you could have 4 sentries scattered around the capture point and cards that synergize with his sentries so they do matter
Funny enough doesn't he have a TF2 skin of the engineer as well.
@@aaronlaughter6471he does, it's a free skin if I remember correctly
Yes Barik also know as the "Engineer from TF2" is a pretty fun character to play. Also i consider it mandatory to use TF2 Engineer skin when playing as Barik. 🔧
Engineer has something Torbjourn doesn’t.
He solves practical problems
with more gun
And don't forget his famous meme, Engineer Gaming
Not prolem what is beauty
@@christopherhugog8570 I'm pretty sure "Nope." is more popular.
dispenser
Haven't watched it but I assume it is due to his buildings, the engineering part, being secondary as opposed to TF2's and DRG's Engineers, of whom the engineering parts are essential.
A little more specific than that, but you're on the right track ;)
Hell yeah!@@LucidMakesVideos
i mean drg sentries arent necessary at all. they help sure but they're only really good at cleaning up after you
the platform gun is more necessary to drg's engineer
@@comet.x still part of the Engineer identity, as well as the secondaries and grenades.
@@comet.x Platforms still count as a 'building,' and if you use weapon mods/overclocks like turret whip or em discharge you can absolutely main turrets; I run turret whip warthog with double turrets and become an artillery battery during swarms.
I asked the remaining Torbjorn mains what they thought of this video. Both of them left to get some liquor.
It's a life we live us torb mains
@@okbruhlol as a tf2 engineer main lets saddle down and pickup the ole beer pardner
🥹🙏
The problem with this video is that it's asking Blizzard to do something intellegently
Edit: Also, fun fact, Torb is the only one of this trio to actually create more problems than he solved. He's responsible for the original Omnic Crisis. Imagine if TF2 Engie was behind Mann vs Machine, or if DRG Engie was behind the Rival Tech bots.
Dell could still be setting up some issues with assisting the administrator, if we ever get that 7th comic, but so far, nothing much. His grandfather, however, has caused most of the current issues, considering he did the life extending machines.
i dont think adressing the "issues" shown in this video is any smarter. op put a lot of effort to this, but hes not well informed at all.
Torb..isn't responsible for that though.
i mean his grandfather was the reason the whole gravelwars happened which then turned into mvm
@@cataro_kujo you know a few decades of merc contracts does not seem equivelant to planetary war against omnicidal ai just saying even if you count mvm which I don't grey I believe made his own
Damn shame because I love Torbjorn as a character
His design is great, his backstory and personality are great
But because of the absolute state Overwatch is in now, he's a shell of his former self...
The drg engineer is a better version
@@madmonty4761ok
The whole thing about torb is that blizzard wanted to make him more independent to his turret
@@arthuruiugamesbr9777 if they wanted to lean more into the Battle Engineer aspect, then Torb should have had a risk reward to his turrets and his independance. being an engineer means solving problems, so that means Torb should be kitted to handle multiple problems that the Heroes in the game cause. being a battle engineer just makes him more focused on disposable turrets and a bolt gun, he should be given multiple types of buildings and turrets that do different types of damage (Rockets, lasers, bullets, etc)
You forgot to mention that Symmetra's turrets also have utility in slowing down enemies, and they also have much less range.
Or at least that was the case in OW1, I refuse to play the cashgrab sequel and I'm unsure if it's changed in it.
people have been consistently asking to remove the slow actually, but they nerfed the damage to 25 dps each, 3 turrets
@@polar6066 Oh yeah, remove the slow while keep the meteor strike/sunstick
Totally reasonable
@@I_Dont_Believe_In_Saladmeteor strike is an ult tho
In a lot of ways, I kind of feel like Torbjorn is a summation of the problems with Overwatch as a whole. So many of ideas seem to just be lifting things from other games and media without thinking about how they work in context, eventually filing off the few bits of character they had in order to chase the idea of being a big deal e-sports.
Hit the nail on the head.. or the turret with the wrench.
Exactly. The reason i got interested in ow was the different generes and playstyles. They took away everything that made him what he was sopposed to be, an engineer. Hes just a worse shooter.
Eh...nah they do know how to make them work in context...or at least they did.
he was never like this, obviously the first iteration of torb was heavily inspired by tf2s engineer where the majority of his dps is from his turret ESPECIALLY with ult which turned it t3, however over the years from his first rework theyve been slowly pulling back on power on his turret, when they reworked him, his ult no longer steroided his turret, and no setup was required just a set and forget tool, the turret still had impact though, but in ow2 the casual playerbase mainly wanted the turret to be nerfed so his power got shifted more into torb himself then his turrets even though it wasn't a needed nerf and also ends up just ruining his identity altogether
I can imagine the nerf from the turret was to make him pair with Symmetra since her sentries were also nerfed in damage but even then, they made it so Symm's sentries can detect enemies in their range as well as giving Symm shield and damage boost for how much the sentries damaged the enemy while Torb just recieved an autoreload when overloaded.
Giving Torb abilites to buff his sentries would be nice. Like overloading affects his sentry too, or molten core lets his sentry burn people. Something other than a throwable.
as a torb main, this little dwarf FUCKING NEEDS A REWORK.
I hope we get one soon for him, but we can only hope...
He doesn’t need a rework, he needs to be reverted. Literally every issue in this video could be solved with his old design.
@@firstwaddledee9182 yep. Let his turret be an actual threat that needs time to setup and is worth protecting, let him give armor packs again too... basically make him the damage dealer/support hybrid he originally was instead of a pure DPS he was never meant to be
remove symmetra and give torb teleporters
@@firstwaddledee9182 fuck you, I want a rework 😡
(armor packs are fucking awesome though, bring them back plz blizzard)
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 let sym keep the tellies but give torbjörn something to assist his sentry like the repair node that went unused in tf2
Tf2's engineer has a name though. Dell Conagher.
I didn't expect that last bit to actually make me feel kinda bad for torbjorn
also, pineapple
I remember playing an event vs bots where you babysit an unmoving payload for a good 10 minutes while the vehicle (that torbjorn designed) struggles to boot up and start moving.
and I thought to myself, Torbjorn, you're fired.
real big fan of this one, good pacing, respects the viewer, and a good blend of analytics and personal critique, nice video man :)
What do you think about:
Barik from Paladins
Engineer from Risk Of Rain 2
Engineer from Garden Warfare 1 & 2
Torb's turret doing basically no dmg is a band-aid fix. Auto aim turret is not fun for anyone and was much stronger than it was in the new 5v5 version of the game, so they had to do something. Overwatch has too many bigger problems for the devs to do anything to Torb, I'm sure they'll rework him if the game survives the next couple of years.
I feel like they could balance it by making it a projectile weapon rather than hitscan, but keeping the auto-aim. That way they can buff up the damage and make it more effective at holding close quarters choke points, but inconsistent at longer ranges because past a certain point, just walking in a straight line sideways you'd outpace the travel time of the projectiles.
ya facts hire this guy blizzard. players who learned the timing could totally dodge most shots too but it would also make them more predictable for torb to shoot at@@tau-5794
This comment kinda didn't age well, given that the game is in a massively better state than it was only a scant 6 months ago. Happy about that tho, it's more fun to play :>
wym I legit called it, they already announced they were reworking 2 dps soon, one of them is pretty much has to be torb. I think their plan was exactly what I said. Make game in better state, then worry about Torb. And they are on the torb part now after making the game better(except not rly for tank players ).Also I do not think their progress in 6 months is a lot lol. The update that put the game in a better state was a mere small numbers tweak. 6 months for that lmao. Mauga and Flashpoint gamemode are such Ls too@@zorimanar2247
As a veteran engineer of TF2 when playing torb back in the early day of OW1. Torb was amazing and his sentry and support capability was great. Giving the other 2 support classes armour first really let people know you were a team player and his no cool down sentry spawn was great for farming ult charage. Level 3 sentry was great and i was 3 game wins away from GM as a torb main.
The rework made me loose most of my interest to play torb, i would argue he was nerfed so hard to what he was. I really wish they would allow previous reworks to be more of a build loadout. So you can choose to be Release day torb or the latest or how many reworks sym had.
That's what happens when you keep adding characters to the point of not being able to balance each one to have their own thing
Man i couldn't agree with you more, yet this video made me sad, not only for the waste of potential, but because you made me remember overwatch, and i main Torbjorn.
Having an ability that swaps what playstyles you are using would be a pretty solid way to differentiate Torb. With the flick of a button, maybe on cooldown, he could go from a maybe squishier, but faster and higher damage outputting combat mechanic with a weaker, but ultimately more offensive sentry to a tankier, supportive role with a tougher, upgradable sentry and maybe even the armor packs. Go crazy with the guy, he's just an under utilized meme rn
*Engi:* 🎶You got a bad case of Napoleon syndrome, but at least Mr Bonaparte knew how win some🎶
🎶Diversification is my certification teleporters and health dispensers I can make them🎶
🎶Now whip out your tennis launcher we're playing hardball you're an easy target when you're wider than you are tall🎶
🎶It won't only be your toes that I'm stepping on I know you're swedish but I still think you're a leprechaun 🎶
"give him the armor packs he used to have"
Me, thinking about an armor packed Orosa:
No. Just no.
he was closer to the engineer theme at release, having a building he cared about and needed to keep alive like his TF2 counterpart (and the turret was an even more blatant copy than now, having 3 levels that had one gun, then two guns, then two guns and a missile launcher on top... even then though it was wimpy, but at least the frail flankers like tracers had to be mindful of it), and supporting teammates through armor packages.
They graducally moved him away from it though to the point the turret is reduced to a mere afterthought (a peashooter that cant do more than finish off someone who's already critical or be an alarm system) and he cant support his team anymore with armor packages, turning him just into yet another DPS that just wants to click on heads, just with an engineer theme slapped on.
Blizzard balancing to appease competetive scene and making every character bland "shoot head" dps at it's finest
Tbh i dont think anyone gives a hell that torb had a leveling up system for his turret, i never understood the obsession with eveyeone calling him a engineer rip off when his kit works entirely different are their similarity's sure but to say hes a rip off is just dumb, cause engineers sentry and torbs turret work in two different ways tf2s sentry has a small range but can kill people quickly, torbs turret has a longer range but slower to kill, ment to pick off health at a distance
@@rav_productions2136 the levelling system was pretty meaningful: it meant that Torb needed setup time for his defense to be at its best, and that a fully upgraded turret could afford to be a bigger threat. It also meant the turret was worth the time to repair and protect it unlike the current throwaway version, especially as his ult was tied to the turret itself.
And I mean come on Torb even had to salvage scrap from corpses to give armor packs, something akin to a tf2 engie grabbing ammo boxes from corpses to build his stuff, so yeah he really used to be the tf2 engie adapted into overwatch, being even if the turret never had as much punch. (And thats from someone that played both here)
Nowadays he is way more different than the TF2 engineer, but id argue the character lost his gameplay identity entirely in the process and is now only a shell of what he used to be. He'd have been better off if he was still a thematic clone of the TF2 engie rather than pushing him into a dps role he was never designed for
@@thorveim1174 you know what I honestly agree and even if I don't agree with that whole clone mentality since by definition a clone is an exact copy, since Torb does alot to differentiate himself if anything he was inspired and does things way better then the engineer, but other then that, that's why I think beta Torb worked the best since he needed to work hard and collect scrap to keep his stuff up and to upgrade it, not to mention he had to choose between using his scrap between his turret or his amour packs so you had to think about how you used it.
Another thing is Torb should be powerful if you leave him to his own devices and he should be an actual threat his level 3 turret should be a simi op item because of how much effort and time you had to put into the thing, the only thing I felt was truly op with the og Torb was the ult, say what you want about the turrets but it rewarded Torb for staying alive and collecting scrap and in turn it made his turret stronger
But back to the ult, the reason I think it was pretty op was because it was just a get out of jail free card to get his turret to level 3 with the unlimited scrap, in my opinion a level 3 turret is something you would have to earn with great turret placement and scrap management and the way I would have done it was just have it refill his scrap bar so he was just able to get his turret to the next level cause I'm not gonna lie the original Molton core made Torb a powerhouse and I feel like giving him unlimited scrap was to much, and the thing is Torb should be one of those characters who gradually becomes more powerful as the match goes on
Torb upgrading his turret should be a gradual process since unlike TF2 where engineer can get metal to upgrade his stuff from his dispenser, ammo packs or just even going back to spawn, Torb has to rely on picking up scrap from fallen enemy's and Torb had way more of the tools to do so then engineer all engineer had were secondary a shotgun and a pistol basically only good for up close combat and would always need a sentry gun next to him that's legit the whole reason why the mini sentry exists if he wanted to be more aggressive, while Torb didn't really need to by his turret all the time, was it preferable to be by his turret yeah, but at the same time Torb had way more firepower at his disposal and an actual gun that was ment for long range the rivit gun which also had an ult fire which was a shotgun up close, he did pretty good damage so he doesn't need to rely so much on his turret like engie does his sentry, he could output good damage
The thing is old Torb could have worked with a couple tweaks to the kit, cause other then that he was pretty balanced because it took him time to set up his turret and to upgrade it, he could do decent damage by himself, not to mention it he had to cut into his own scrap supply to give himself or his teammates armor
Say what you want about modern Torb but the only reason and why the rework exists is how blizzard legit handled Torb after the beta, they locked the level 3 turret behind an ult as well as the original molton core basically giving him two ults amd giving the turret as much health as a dam tank, They removed using scrap to upgrade your turret so you just now had to hit your level 1 Turret 5 times to turn into a level 2 and you used your scrap to make armor....and then they legit made it so he passively gains back scrap and it's just like...why? You took what made torb balanced and interesting to play and made it way to easy to get instant value out of his abilities and Blizzard basically sealed torbs fate for a rework with these dumb changes
Torbjorn was initially created to be under the "Defense" category and has received little changes from then till now. That's why he plays the way he does. He was never meant to be anything but a 2CP defense hero.
But he fails at doing that, as statement in comparision to engineer, thats why at 7:08 trying to ad an idea for a rework to make him adaptable.
Little changes? I guess ult change, removing turret upgrading, collecting metal, and armor packs are a 'little changes'
The character was completely rebuilt from what he used to be
I love how your first two suggestions for Torbjorn improvements are just… The Wrangler. Shows how much better TF2 fully is.
I hate to use wrangler, other than placing sentry in funny spot, and that exactly what there werent metioned!
@@expepem189xl3 agree, it also feels so dirty to use because you have the effective health as 2 heavys on lvl 3, overhealed heavy on level 2, and a normal heavy on a mini. It also gives more dps to help stuff ubers
The fact that they were working on talents (RIP OW2 proper) means there should be plenty at their disposal for ability buffs/reworks. Even 2 at 2/3 damage and 150 health would be better since more angles even if less pressure in one place
Yeah!Thanks i feel it too! And if you dont activlly use it, switching on it in heat of battle could just render your base sentry less while you playing more agressive, and trying to place tp in capture the flag(I am not doing it just for tp). @@aguy3753
Also the Turret Whip mod for DRG Engineer's shotgun causes your sentry to fire a power-shot when you shoot it with your shotgun, which is similar to the first suggestion in the video.
honestly when i played torb he felt weird and i didn't know what to do with his kit, offense, defense. relieved to know i wasnt the only one who felt that way
A dwarf who has truly disappointed his ancestors
7:11 why do our boy like that 😔
Torb is currently in my opinion one of the most broken dps out there, with aim he has a reaper shotgun and can easily 1v1 snipers plus has a turret and area denial ulti on top of having insane atk speed and hp+armor with e
Broken but situational
@@maninhu9837 weirdly enough I always pick Torb, def or attack, I am by no means GOOD at him but I am decent, I have yet to lose a proper 1v1 even against tanks, maybe only other torbs or roadhog but I've 1v1'd even that
@@totallynotdsl8507 I play him too, mainly as a rage pick, if your team is decent, then you can set up turrets to deal with supports and rush the tank, another thing to do is set it around corners, if the wall is thin enough the barrel can barely shoot enemies from a more covered position.
You could make torbjorn earn tf2 gear-like objects by dealing damage to enemies. This way he'd be forced to have more offensive playstyle, that would also succeed in improvement of defense.
Nobody remembers the Engineer from the PS2 game _Star Wars Battlefront II._
There’s a bunch of misinformation in this one from out of date stats to basic context such as most characters who are actually threatened by turrets having poor effective ranges most notably tracer, and the fact torb is considered kind of meta while sym is a niche pick (her turrets don’t even slow anymore) who does the play style way less efficiently and is more akin to pyro.
Yep, and of course he skips over that because it doesn't fit with his narrative
he leaves out the fact that torb has insane close range dps with his right click, literally one of the only characters i've seen be able to gun down a healing hog with only a bit help
@@chingas9378 is it really an engineer if its only good at basic combat with his primary?
the reason the stats are out of date is because the video is old, thats what happens when TIME PASSES
@@shaddysehly5040well yeah duh, he doesn’t have to play exactly like the engineer
As a Torbjörn main i like the challenge of well placed turrets and dinking headshots.
He clearly does not own an air fryer
In my opinion, this is a decent attempt to cross analyze these three archetypal characters, but unfortunately it screams that the author's mind was made up before actually evaluating the topic.
-There's little to no actual gameplay comparison of these three characters (especially beyond OW) and how they fit into their respective games (which are all very different). And the changes offered seemed to understand very little of how OW works.
-Symmetra's turrets are significantly weaker and all three can be killed with a singular melee when stacked.
-Torb's turret has significantly more health, torb has armor while sym has shields.
-Torb is designed for poke comp and sym is brawl/rush
-Torbs turret is meant to be ranged poke and pressure from sightlines while symmetra is meant to capture a small radius (objective).
-I don't know how you think Junkerqueen and Mercy are as threatening as Hanzo over characters like Widow Bastion or Ana (especially with the current meta). Torb can easily be more threatening than JQ and Mercy in the right hands as well as many others.
-Torb's design was originally more like the TF2 engineer before he actually came into his own unique design balancing defense (turret can shoot down from off angles on enemy pushes, torb has armor) and offense (overload abilities on turret and self, molten core ultimate) and ultimately making the character more active than TF2 engineer.
-In one clip of OW, you seem to imply a sentry should be able to kill Soldier 76 in 1-2 seconds of seeing him. In my opinion, turning a corner and getting autodeleted by a turret would be terrible game design. Too automated for you, and too op for anyone in sight of it. However, you hitting your shots AND the turret shooting him would definitely be able to kill.
-You're simultaneously criticizing Torb for being different and the same as the TF2 engineer which is strange to me
-You didn't even attempt to touch on how the characters fit into the lore of their respective worlds and all that torb has done within OW
If you don't like the characters design in a personal sense, that's totally fair and valid, especially having copied TF2. Personally, I don't care for torb much tbh and I love TF2. But to attempt to present this argument objectively is honestly just not working imo unless I'm already primed to see OW as a cheap TF2 copy which seems to be the essential tone of this video. And if you think that, well ok fair enough I guess. xD
P.S. Great music choice and editing/transitions.
Even current day Barik from Paladins stand as a better Engineer than Torbjorn is. and my boi was Neutered severely through out the years after being released as part of the first eight Champions.
I've never even really played Paladins, but all these comments about Baril are interesting me...
I haven't played Paladins in over a year but I always liked Barik. His ultimate being a small but powerful area denial tool really works thematically compared to Torbjorn's ult. And there's also the fact that, unlike Overwatch, Overwatch at least has some level of character customization.
@@LucidMakesVideos I wanted to comment about Barik from paladins! It's so wild to me, because despite Paladins being a game that rode off of Overwatch's success- and Barik even having a tf2 engineer skin, I feel like Barik has a much more distinct and solid identity compared to torbjorn, and is like. Way more fun to play. In game, Barik is a tank character- and he has the lowest base health out of every character in the tank class. In exchange, he can build turrets- multiple of them, if not contested enough- and while they don't do a lot of damage themselves, they add to his point presence and can be hard to take down when you have barik himself and two other turrets spread out attacking from three angles. Alternatively, you can keep them all close together where they're more likely to focus fire, defending them with your deployable shield and maintaining them passively with a build for keeping them alive while you're near them. He has multiple distinct playstyles thanks to Paladins' talent and card systems, and is just a super dynamic character compared to torbjorn- well deserving to stand alongside TF2's and DRG's engineers. He can be the adopted child :)
tldr; Barik is paradoxically less derivative than his equivalent character from the game that everyone makes fun of Paladins for copying, and I think that's wild
If you think torb's primary and secondary fire are bad you are having an active skill issue
That's what I'm saying
While i agree. Torb is a better character overrall then sym. At least right now, sym is very map dependent while Torb can be brought out on far more maps and is one of the most successful characters rn. Actually, him being better then sym has been a pretty consistent thing. Atleast outside of low level games
4:32 don't forget her shield instead of HP (in most cases) IS AN UPGRADE!
Risk of Rain 2's engineer is also worth taking a look at
Bro forgot the best engineer
Engineer from PVZ
As someone who likes playing Engie (both TF2 and DRG), I did try to play Torb when I used to play OW, then I learned about Symmetra and her tower defense playstyle and never looked back... at least until Overwatch died...
Another thing, Torb's sentry is also outbeat by another character in OW... who was legitimately a playable sentry...
I remember the "play of the game" I got with lvl 3 sentry while I was chilling at its side. A well positioned, with a good understanding of the map line of sights and carring to not be flanked got me good memories.
There's also the engineer from PvZ:GW
I would also say that Heimerdinger from LoL is a preaty good representation of the engeneer archetype even tho he is suposed tobe a mad scientist, not an engeneer
Torb has enough lore to fit being an Engie. But over the years, they removed the supportive role he once had, turning him into a bad dps. Overwatch used to have 4 categories, but removing that has noticeably affected Torb and Bastion, putting them into a more offensive role that they weren’t fundamentally designed for. They took the Engie out of Engineer. And nobody really wants to play as a Near.
He is cool as DWARF but bad as engineer thats kinda sad
The engineer but with a mini sentry as the only building and the pomson as a primary
Damn, that was a strong roast
You just ain’t doing it right- Engineer
That right there is just a sad display boy- Engineer
Tf2 engi does have a name, although its not said in game. Dell Conagher
1:37 -- God damnit Gunner, you made me try to Rock and Stone again! I'm in public!
At 5:05 your technically wrong, while the drg engi has no name the tf2 ones is actually Dell Coniger
🕳
Torbjorn is a failed engineer but he does make some interesting inventions in some stories. Heck he is one of those responsible for creating the Bastion units and was the one who reworked Bastion.
Good take, I didn't realize how much missing potential torb had. I would love to see more adaptability. Symm definitely feels more like the engineer with many tools at her disposal while torb only has the one-note turret. I hope they consider doing another rework with him like sombra and roadhog recently.
TBH if they'd make torb close to what Engi is PDA and Buldings included, I'd play him way more! Give him a Dispenser and a Teleporter!
I love when a new vid comes out you can see the editing get slightly better every time keep it up
Speaking as someone who mained Torbjorn for a bit back when he played Overwatch. I gotta say...
You ain't wrong.
how is torbjorn a straight downgrade to symmetra? his turret has *way* more range, and you can melt tanks if they try to contest you and you have overload
he's way more bunkery than symm because overload gives you more survivability and you're far better at 1v1s due to having higher dps and damage reduction with armor, while symm has higher mobility and utility with tp
he also has arguably better poke than symm since his projectiles are faster and can headshot
not to mention their ults are completely different
This video made me think of how the "engineer" from paladins stacks up to this trio
Its funny watching thus vid at this specific time period, when Torb is one of the best DPS picks in the current meta.
I mean, i doesn't disprove most of the points made here (except Symmetra being a better character, thats just wrong), but still, its funny.
We grant you a seat at the table but do not grant you the title of engineer
What you get is an architect. Torbjorn is an architect.
After watching both of your videos about Engineers (both of which I think are fantastic for a channel as surprisingly small as yours), they got me thinking about the Engineer Zombie from the Plants Vs. Zombies shooter games (Garden Warfare 1, Garden Warfare 2, and Battle for Neighborville).
I think it would be really interesting to compare the Techie Zed to the Engies that came before him, considering how Team Fortress 2 was a main draw of inspiration for designing the PVZ Shooter Games. Engineer is a peculiar character. You can unlock variants of him, which primarily act as a way of changing his primary weapon, he has three abilities, all of which have their own sidegrades/variants of, and his roles change throughout the shooter games, from being mainly offensive, to mainly defensive, to a weird blend of both.
You've just earned a subscribe from me! Looking forward to your next video :)
overwatch copied pvz garden warfare change my mind
There was another 2016 game by popcap that gave us a superior enginear
"Plants vs zombies garden warfare 2 " its on steam and its great no joke
Also great video
Torn should’ve been a support hero
I haven't played Overwatch since like, 2017 or 2018, so imagine my shock when I found out that Jizzard took away his level 2-3 sentry and armor packs.
I remember like Torbjorn when Overwatch first came out. I haven't played in so long, I actually didn't know that he didn't have the 3 levels of turrets anymore. I remember it was one of the funniest ways to get play of game, by just using his ult to get the level 3, and go do something stupid while the turret killed the whole enemy team. It's a shame the playerbase is so whiny about things that aren't braindead easy to understand how to beat at a beginner level. Reminds me of that character that's just a turret. Can't remember the name anymore, but at launch everyone was convinced they were broken beyond belief, but after about 6 months, they were considered one of the worst characters at mid to high levels. Torbjorn's Turret was a similar situation in my mind. If you aren't familiar with how to bait a turret, as you can in TF2, a Turret probably looks incredible OP. But once you know how to deal with it, it's only a threat when it's backed with players that are preventing you from destroying it. Oh well, one more reason to never go back to Overwatch.
as a Swedish person i can confirm we banished Torbjörn from our kingdom a long time ago, he was a threat to the other dwarves you see.
What about the builder from Clash Of Clans? Even though he is not categorized as an Engineer, he can create buildings for the village even with his passive nature
I love seeing underrated channels that do good content
keep up the good work :D
"He is a dwarf"
TheLucidLetters
"I am not a dwarf!"
Torbjörn
5:00 that's "kinda" wrong.
The TF2 comics actually give us the canonical names of each merc, save for the Spy (because well... he IS a Spy, secrecy is his thing), and for Pyro (he is supposed to be a boogieman, so it also makes sense, plus it's an fan joke that he might be a woman).
The Engineer is called Dell Conagher. :)
PS: Below are all TF2 mercs' names.
Heavy is Misha (Mikhail)
Scout is Jeremy
Soldier is Jane Doe
Demoman is Tavish DeGroot
Medic is Ludwig
Barik from Paladins is also a really fun comparison to make because, like... he kind of succeeds in a lot of the areas where Torbjorn fails, and due to the cards and talents system, he can be built and played in multiple different ways, making him pretty adaptable too
He even has an actual TF2 Engineer skin, with new voicelines a custom reload animation and everything
trob have a lot of potential as a character in lore he have tons of from his small weird ball trap to massive robots.
The issue with Torb is simply that he can't compete with TF2 Engineer's power... being permanently stuck with a single stage sentry is a huge problem since you can't make it too strong or he'll just lock down games, but since it's so weak you can basically ignore the thing
Having multiple stages with higher DPS will make Torb more of a threat if not dealt with, and more of a priority to defend and keep alive
And while this doesn't help him differentiate himself from Engie that well it certainly gives him an actual role to play
I’m a game about just spamming abilities in the direction of your enemy, they turned sentries into just another ability to spam.
Torbjorn is Avery good DPS in the right hands. And I'd argue he's borderline broken against tank players with his overcharged alt fire 3 tapping some tanks.
Oh, a Winston dives our supports? Torbs there to fuck his shit up when he presses e.
His armor overhealth also prevents him from getting one shot, unlike symmetra's flimsy overshield.
There's a reason why the comp meta in season 6 of ow 2 was Orisa, Bastion, Torb, Kiri, and Brig. Nobody was dying and everyone gets smoked by Bastion. Diving, didn't work, rushing didn't work, and poking sure as hell didn't work. Your only options were to brawl with the same comp or flank with reaper and soldier.
Torbjorn, as it stands, is a very strong character in ow 2. Don't believe me? Watch Dafran's unranked to top500 video of the character.
However, as an engineer character, he's not really one. And because he's so good rn I don't think blizzard is gonna change him anytime soon.
Engineers: the ones who drop funny gun.
What a sad state of affairs when the Dwarf Engineer is outclassed by the Elf Artificer in the same game.
When I was playing Overwatch, I played Torbjorn a bit.
And I am upset they removed the armor packs, it gave him a slightly different role than Dell. Plus it let you over extend when his molten core was his ultimate, straight up captured a flag by popping that and shoving my face full of armor packs until I got back to my side.
The extra abilities and turret sounds so cool. Using your idea asa template. I can imagine the turret having 2 modes. Attack mode, the turret fires a burst of bullets, dealing around 75 FPS, but having to cool down after a couple of rounds. And a defense mode, where it deals way less damage, let's say 25 FPS, they have a constant yet slow fire rate, idk something like 1 shot a sec, but the bullets have a greater knockback allowing you to defend an area
The off putting security hall theme in the back lol
While I can see your point around comparing the other engineer to Torb, there is some irony in saying he is a weaker version of Symmetra when Torb is honestly kinda busted in the current meta to a point that the developer said a nerf to him is coming in a later date.
Symmetra is a far more of an engineer failure than Torb in my opinion. You described Symmetra turret to seem better than Torb turret, but there is a reason why Torb turret generally gets nerfed over Symmetra turret that often needed buffs to keep up with the game. And Symmetra used to have a lot of insanely gimmicky ability that is has little to no use, so much so that she had to be fully reworked twice.
Back to Torb though, because a lot of Overwatch player were not a fan of Torb turret having very little skill for a lot of impact, Torb had his playstyle of "subpar DPS with a tanky turret" morphed into "tanky DPS with a subpar turret" to make Torb more "skillful". This does make him feel less like a tactical engineer and more like a Cass/Reaper hybrid with a turret.
In defense of the balance team though, Overwatch has a lot of characters synergy. Your idea of giving Torb the option to optimize for offense or defense for his turret is very cool, but it can easily backfire if his tank can cycle their cooldown with the defense mode extremely efficiently. So much so that you effectively can never burst down the turret. We are kinda in a turret meta right now, so Torb's turret having a lot of potential can be very problematic.
Now do barik, his cards and talents bassicly make him borderline unlikeable, he made drogos wings and discovered gem technology which makes him easily a bigger deal then "weapon creator" and he isn't half as boring as torbjorn
I've neverminded Barik. Outside of how spamable his shield is, his turrets are even worse than Torbjorn's.
@@pepperonipizza8200 true
1500+ game, 75% winrate Torbjorrn main chiming in with my 2 cents. I won't speak to his derivative design, because in that regard you are entirely right, but there are plenty of reasons to pick Torbjorn, even over other characters.
While Symmetra fills a similar role she in no way straight outclasses Torbjorn. Starting with the guns her main fire requires ramp up to be dangerous and her charged orbs take a full second to fully charge, whereas Torbjorn even without his overload outputs similar (or higher if you include headshots) damage to Symmetra without any need to spend time charging something or ramping up. His main fire has no damage falloff and can headshot, spammed into a choke point or used to pressure a long distance threat it is far more effective than Symmetra's ranged option, albeit with the need to actually aim. Up close he is dangerous far more quickly than Symmetra since he doesn't need to ramp up his damage the way she does. As for his turret vs her sentries the biggest difference is the range they have and the time it takes to kill them, if a flanker comes across Symmetra sentries they can typically just vacate the small area they are in safely, whereas with Torbjorn's turret it covers a much wider area and takes a little more effort to remove, essentially it comes down to whether you want stronger area denial over a much more concentrated area via Symmetra or less damaging area denial over a much larger are via Torbjorn. Their E abilities are an entirely different matter, Torbjorn's making him faster bulkier and more damaging, while Symmetra's lets her get herself and her team around the battlefield. Their ultimate abilities are both very area denial heavy, with the biggest difference being whether you want to impede the enemy though a direct damage deterrent via molten core, or by making an area difficult to approach because the friendly team is hard to kill off via her shield. Identity wise Symmetra is definitely the more interesting engineer, but gameplay wise when picking between the two it comes down to whether you want higher tech potential or higher on demand raw killing potential.
I won't go into pros and cons on Torbjorn vs other characters individually, but I would like to talk a bit more about things specific to Torbjorn and what I see 98% of them get wrong starting with his turret. One of the biggest issues I see with Torbjorn players is a fundamental misunderstanding of what to do with their turret, the vast majority of them plop it somewhere obvious and either are done with it or they sit there and babysit it, the more savvy players hide it a bit or occasionally move it, but they still often struggle with whether to babysit it or not. There is also the issue with most players firmly believing that the turret is pretty much the character, so they put far too much stock into protecting it. It is almost entirely a disposable annoyance or distraction, but when the situation does arise that you need to repair it in battle (not often) a tactic I have never once seen an enemy Torbjorn use is positioning yourself in between the enemy and the turret while you repair, your dumpy body is pretty much the perfect size to block most non explosive incoming fire from hitting it, but your healer can work to keep you alive while the turret shoots through you. What it boils down to is what your team actually needs from the turret, are you trying to get a bit of extra firepower in a key area, or are you needing an early warning system/deterrent against annoying flankers? I never expect my turret to pose much threat to anybody who is actually alive and capable of working the keyboard, but what it can do beautifully is point out anything that crosses into it's sightlines and poke at them a bit, giving you immediate heads up to an enemy and doing a bit of chip damage while you alert your team and decide your actions. Regardless of what you want from your turret, if the enemy immediately has a direct line of sight on it as they come through a choke or approach the point then it is in the wrong place, you always want to build it in a spot that forces the enemy to turn in a direction not facing your team in order to deal with it. The fact that he can throw his turret and it automatically builds means that you can get it into extremely cheeky spots at short notice, and while it's damage is weak it is still enough to provide enough distraction to allow you to deal with single flankers, or else adds up far more than most people think when ignored. Many people are unaware, but the turret focuses on any target you shoot for as long as it can see them, which is great for forcing healers and other squishies to back away from it's line of sight or dealing with it.
There isn't much to say about his gun and his E ability, other than his gun is typically very underrated, not broken, but much better than most people realize. With a little bit of aim and accounting for travel time and the slight arc his main fire is extremely solid, particularly due to having no damage falloff. His shotgun right click actually does higher damage than Reaper's per shot, and during overload has the same fire rate as Reaper, effectively making him an extremely effective tank shredder if they are stupid enough to approach you or allow you to approach. The other lesser used function of overload is the extra health and movement speed, the move speed being the more relevant as it lets you scamper from place to place or chase a target to secure a kill just a bit faster than otherwise.
His ultimate borders between solid area denial and straight game winner depending on the situation. In over time it corrals the enemy team effectively enough in the crunch that they are forced to either fight in the designated area you left open for them or just flat out die trying to spread out to avoid incoming fire. Again, not a lot to say on this one other than the fact that it is very good at doing what it was designed to do.
Lastly isn't tied to his kit, but to the playstyle. Torbjorn should be played as aggressively as possible as often as is feasible, almost never tethered to your turret and constantly either on the front lines or roaming your team's space, the biggest exception is when you end up on anti-flanker duty when you mostly keep an eye out for them and stay within a few seconds o the turret. The key to winning with Torbjorn is to establish early on that you are a major threat and to adapt when they adjust their character picks to deal with you. You gotta' get up to their tank and give 'em a taste of why they shouldn't come near you. You gotta' give their healers a taste of those rivet headshots to let 'em know why they shouldn't ever let you get line of sight on them. You gotta' shut down their flankers with crafty constantly changing turret positioning and raw vigilance to let 'em know they aren't gonna have a good time in your backyard. You gotta' be constantly looking for new and unexpected turret positions to let 'em know that any new sightline they move into might contain that constantly plodding chip damage, and regardless of how they react to it or even whether they do react to it you immediately take advantage of the situation and give 'em a taste of your one man crossfire.
Apologies for the full on rambling thesis of a post, but given my time with the character and personal stats on him I feel like I am qualified to throw my hat into the ring regarding hid performance. It is also a bit vexing hearing so many people being so disparaging towards Torbjorn when he has been my go to pick for years when I'm in the mood for some clean wins, or when a particular team has a few members who need to be carried across the finish line.
'bring back the armor packs'
oh, no, nononononono no no no no.
Jesus man you didn't have to shoot and then kick him while he was down.
in conclusion: Symmetra, a character not even close to being an ENGINEER. *Is a BETTER engineer, than THEIR OWN ENGINEER*
I severely miss when torbjorn gave out armor packs. stacking him up with sym's shield generator felt soooo good in casual. turned your entire team into friggin bullet sponge tanks, lol.
we need a 1984 style hate week, but directed exclusively at torbjorn
Mans clearly not watched Emesis Blue
Torb is crying in a corner right now
Honestly I’d think Engi and Torbjorn would get along great