lmao i was thinking the same thing like why make these crazy hero calls? all it does is draw negative attention but the greed overtakes the mind i guess
Its probably that theres not always intersection between those with the hacking skills and decent enough understanding of poker. If you get into poker starting with the intent of cheating from the beginning, you'll be more interested in exploiting the vulnerability you find while you still can instead of actually learning what legitimately successful poker players look like. And as the other commenter mentioned, greed is no doubt a big factor too.
@tylermokarry9731 long con when cheating is hard... one update could essentially destroy you. You need to go in quick exploit then bail. Mike posted style cheating is the one where he was really stupid. He literally could have milked it for years before getting caught. Not to take any interviews, lose some win some, keep a low profile... but dudes ego was too big.
Some people are just bad at poker and will play any hand and see the hand through or at least to the river. There’s also rich oilers who don’t care about money and will simply call to call, so you will always have users that do in fact make impossible calls possible because they’re either terrible or money means nothing to them.
Not true. They only had a half before. A 13 year old Russian Child who worked for chocolate bars. Now they have a 36 year old man to reply to the emails.
GG only made this statement when the comnunity found this out and the case started to gain popularity. It's crazy that with their security team they can't detect these things by themselves.
To be fair to them they may have wanted to alert other potential victims of this exploit so they could also update rather than publicising it widely straight away.
As always with these incidents, it’s not the cheater you should be concerned about. It is the fact they were only caught because they were stupid and greedy. How much clever undetected cheating is really going on…..we will never know.
Alot! Ppl exploiting those poker websites years already. But they play smal ball and very very smart. They dont have big winnings, they dont have big leaps etc. Actually they play for los from time to time, as every poker player experience lossess. They imitate normal player. Those kind will never be caught.
Same happened to me at 888. @TheWiryWoodchuck They were supposed to send all my requested Hand Histories.. The file sent via email 'could not be opened' the "temporary restriction" on my account turned into a "permanent ban" without any explanation. They removed live chat - the only other way of contacting them was through their online help link which funnily enough read 'Page no longer exists'.
@@TiltyfishPoker Anyone care to extol further on this? I know nothing about coding but way too much about poker. Thumbs up / Down being an " attack vector " is it basically like they built a car that pushing the cig lighter turns on the engine or something. Please don't tell me its that level of retarded.
Probably some amount of spaghetti code that only people who left the company 5+ years ago can navigate, possibly the Windows client emulating something that's not native to Windows, maybe some newbie who doesn't understand it's okay to ask for help when adding features for a game played by adults for money. Those are my guesses, doubt they're interested in giving a presentation on exactly how much of a clown fiesta their software development is. Actually, it's weird to me that they would go into as much detail as they did, I think the Adobe Air part is just someone going "hey this thing is some doggy doodoo and we should switch" to their manager but even that got included in a public statement somehow.
It’s laughable. The idea that they need to have “renowned security professionals” to _not send card information early_ is insane. Even a relatively novice programmer should be able to figure it out.
Doug.. Just to correct you on the Potripper thing.. I know it was a long time ago.. But the reason the entire thing kicked off was because a player requested the hand history because he wanted to review his play. He was given full hand history that showed EVERY PLAYERS cards in the history report.. something that should not be possible. So this caused a major deal and everyone started looking at the stats and now knowing all hands could be seen it meant a super user account is possible.
This makes me question every dubious call someone has made against me on GG in the past. It is realistically unlikely that this person either was the first or even acted alone. I think they’re just the one who got caught by not being clever with their exploits (hello Robbi). It’s sad that it’s not been a level playing field and has tarnished GG for me.
Doug, your content is second to none. Constantly continuing to get better despite the fact that you’re already leading the field. Cheers to you, my friend 🍻
Thanks Doug, you have definitely helped me with my decision to not continue playing poker anywhere, even at the big casinos. You’re killing it buddy, really.
Cheating online is very rampant. Just go look at how prevalent it is with online video gaming. It’s an entire industry selling cheat software. Anyone who thinks it won’t be done with actual money involved is about as naive as it gets. Sad thing is anyone with even slightly a bit of strategy not to get caught won’t.
it’s much more preventable in something like poker than in your usual video game. Sure, preventing AI or computer play is massively difficult, but keeping the cards secret should be very easy for an experienced team.
@@YT7mc it’s exponentially more prevalent in video games than poker. For $10 people can cheat in a video game and not be charged with stealing actual money. The ramifications are far less severe. Just look at the past year of all the cheaters being exposed in online chess tournaments for money. Yes they exist but you won’t see thousands banned every day for cheating at poker like you do in video games.
it is definitely impossible to stop some things with current technology. I could certainly multi-account on any platform in the world right now without any fancy gear. But client side hacks are pretty rare. In this case it is interesting because it's a QoL feature. Something that probably didn't get as much QA as a core feature. The things from that forum post are legit callouts though. AI can probably tell them who is cheating with a pretty high degree of certainty, and they aren't even doing the poor mans version of that by just looking at easy to acquire analytics around VPiP and win frequency. However, an ignorant statement about THEY'LL ALWAYS CHEAT is no more valuable than burying your head and assuming it never happens. If GG is smart they'll start a watchdog foundation to audit their practices and get to some of the improvements and compliance that would make you confident at least from a technical perspective there wasn't any cheating going on.
The way a white hat hacker group works is they participate in bounty programs where companies pay anyone who can uncover an exploit in their codebase. Alternatively, they might hack a company, show them proof that they were hacked, and then ask for payment to reveal the exploit they found.
I thought we were done and over with these types of exploits more than 15 years ago! Also, GG's explanation post really makes it sound like the Windows client-side application is actually an emulator of a non-native platform to Windows, which is very concerning if that is so! Also, this makes me wonder a lot about a lot of the "crushers" on GG, and how I'll often see very poor playstyles from MTT players who are boasting six-figure career winnings on the website. In contrast, most Pokerstars/Party/888 players with six-figure career winnings on those websites are some of the best MTT players in the world.
@user-pw6lm1wu5t just curious what you're insinuating? that they make sure everyone has some wins and losses? like they use an algorithm to switch up your luck?
@user-pw6lm1wu5tto be fair, it’s impossible for a computer to emulate pure random, but yes some programs have better “randomization” algorithms than others
@@DougieBarclay Tons of players who had a lucky hit on Stars went on to become winning high-stakes grinders. Internett93o is a good example of a guy who won a complete crapshoot and has run with it since then.
Interesting video. I have had my theories about ACR and either bots or certain players have access to what most likely is seeded hands, which are then decoded by the player and used exploitatively to know the flop turn river. Or maybe they just have a hud that sees my cards. Geez That said, some sites are best avoided, and as a good player, regardless, you avoid some players and move to better tables if you're losing to someone continuously.
Thanks Doug for spotlighting this. I've stopped playing online for a while now for a few reasons. I think I'll stick to getting cheated at the brick and mortar rooms. 😁
I always love corporate company lines because they always sound so soulless. Like what they wrote went through four drafts before it was approved by the legal department, they take no real responsibility and we're supposed to take them at their word that it won't happen again. When the community is able to out these scandals before they do doesn't help matter any. It reminds you that huge companies always act in a reactive vs proactive state. 'Yeah the working conditions were unsafe and everybody from managers to entry level employees knew it, complaints and concerns were filed ... but Bob had to die first ... but we're sorry and we've fixed the situation now.' Oh ok.
The reason you don’t publicly talk about an exploit until it’s patched and you’ve recouped as many of the illicit gains as you can is not to postpone the bad press. It is to A) not give the offender a chance to stash assets/ flee and more importantly B) not give other hackers an opportunity to take advantage of the same exploit while you are still vulnerable
"Wasn't able to access servers or server data" ... "Was able to deduce all-in equity". Apparently all-in equity isn't server data to these guys🤔 When your thumbs up button leaks server data though... top tier programming
Why would the all-in equity odds percentage be broadcast to the client side prior to the hand reveal any way? It would appear that this is intentionally written into the code. That's scary. So GG just blocked this single thumbs up thumbs down access vector to that information but didn't remove the that part of the code that sends the all-in equity to begin with. So to me, they didn't really fix the actual issue.
But anytime you mention shady shit happening on Reddit or twoplustwo you will just get bombarded by poker hardos who say it's impossible to rig online poker and they have too much to lose to ever let it happen.
The client should NEVER have private access to anything but personal hole cards!! I guess that's how they managed to develop so many interactive features in little time. They just didn't give a f**k about security and allowed client access to restricted information. This is a disgraceful way to save time and money on software development. They shouldn't rely on clients not getting hacked. Since they chose this shady business practice then there must be many other possible ways to get restricted information. So shady 🤦♂️
I'm surprised that they admitted that to fix the issue a client side change was required. I don't know how someone can be that stupid but at the same time create software that functions at all. Also, as brilliant as Doug is, I'm surprised that this wasn't a red flag to him, even if he has never done any programming.
Over 25 years playing online poker. Play tested 36 different companies software. Some still owe me money. Yeah, it's a wild wild world. I try to play at the sites banning Trackers and Bots. So not the most popular sites. 5-6 companies own all the poker sites. Choose wisely and I'll see you on the baize.
Maybe instead of spewing random stuff , u actually give some recommendations on this sites by name? Otherwise i don't see how u just not a big troll ...
I have my doubts it was the first. This is probably just the person who got greedy and stood out. In all honesty though this should be a warning to people that poker sites likely aren't as secure as they would have us believe. You have to wonder what else is flying under the radar, especially with sophisticated AI becoming more prominent. Its going to take these sites a lot of money to keep up with it.
The reason people are able to get away with it is because all of these people who defend these sites to the bitter end. These hackers don't just do this by themselves there is always a team so imagine how many of these hacker teams play on regulated and unregulated sites.
I still can't believe people continue to play online scam poker and then accuse people of cheating when its the poker site itself that is scamming you out of your money. You think its just coincidence that you have a monster hand and your opponent manages to draw the 1 outter he needed to win after both of you shoved all in to cap out that rake? The data is out there for everyone to see but nobody bothers to look at it and say something. The playing more hands is just a scapegoat players use to lie to themselves that the game is legitimate. I've been playing poker for money since 1998, both online and at the casino, and roughly about the same amount of hands at each (never liked multi-tabling online). When it came to online play, I saw 100x more monster hands vs draws than I ever did on the felt. For example, I have only seen 2 royals at my table at the casino in 25+ years, meanwhile I have literally hit over 50 royals by myself online in half that amount of time, while sticking to just 1 table. So the whole "you play more hands online" comment people love to use to defend online poker is complete dog shit.
Played with cheaters physically in the same room telling each other their hole cards. I quit online playing right then and told the cheaters, thank you.
You have to assume people are running farms of cheating players, trying to stay under the radar, accumulating gains, tilting all the games against clean players. V depressing
I had multiple times when I thought some cheating was going on, the last one was a guy calling a perfect executed bluff on a K high board with flush and straight possibilities and he stone called me for more than 2.5k with 9 4 off after calling every street instantly
As an IT professional, NOTHING is 100% guaranteed to be safe. People will find an exploit and keep it quiet until they've had a chance to make their money (which is why it's so important to have periodic testing from valid 3rd party companies with state-of-the-art tools that today's hackers use to exploit those vulnerabilities). I still say the player could have a simulator to run the "all in equity" value with and determine probably hole cards. That's just reverse math. I still play on PokerStars, but only in Microstakes as I currently don't trust the online poker system enough to feel safe playing for bigger stakes. I reserve that for at the casino for live cash and tournaments.
that really is the nature of the game, amigo. it took me awhile to accept it also. remember that you're doing well if you consistently get your money in good. continue to work on the strong points and weak points of your game and the results will show up for you in the long run.
I live in CR, I used to work for most of on line poker sites... Only one of them was ok with having in-house super-users...another was caught like Doug said, 15 years ago. I wonder if GG is doing the same on a big scale, like people working from Home in UK or RUSSIA, Croatia, Montenegro..etc...this could be anywhere with a VPN, but broooo what the actual fuck, this could be bots programmed to be super-users.
One way to absolutely prove the scam is to take % of newb/sub 5,000 profit accounts dumping stacks to plus 125k profit accounts compared to dumping stacks toward 25-75k profit accounts…I GUARANTEE the % is absurdly one sided!
not really, the client displays odds to win during all in situations, so it might be that hacker exploited that and made the server spit out odds to win even if it wasnt all in
White hat refers to hackers who are hired by business to test their security. Grey hat refers to hackers who hack websites, find exploits and sell them to the website for money. Black hat refers to those who find exploits and sell them to malicious actors or who use them for their own profit.
I am a IT guy, anything on a computer is hackable. There is a lot of money to be won from the fishes, but for sure someone can see other players cards. Computer codes are always hackable, but i think there are so few who are hacking poker sites. So goodluck to all
I reported some similar (though less serious) issues last year and GG gave me $300, which is probably less than minimum wage for the amount of time I spent investing and writing a detailed report. They don’t care about security.
Well they show you on screen after you go all in and all action has closed, before the public cards are delt for suspence. Some sites like PS also have options where you can cash out for that % of your bet regardless if you win or loose (it's basically a break even stratagy to do and most good players have it turned off if you win), but some people hate sweating it). The issue GG had was sending that info before it was (safe) to be shown (when no player was left to act in an all in situation).
This is rampant and the reason I stopped playing years ago. These ‘cheaters’ are actually the poker sites themselves. The crazy hands you’ve shown here I have seen hundreds of times - from micro stakes to higher stakes. And the ‘cheaters’ are always Brits or Russians.
The sites make too much money out of rake to rig games, esp in micro stakes lol. Like, its non-sense. Now, an individual working at the company cheating, that could and very well prob does happen. "Crazy hands" happen in real life too.
tech noob here but surely there's a way to track the win rates of players on your site and flag the players with the highest win rates. have ai track their hands and check for suspicious activity. if there is something weird like those potripper hands going down then have a human verify that they're cheating and ban them before they get to play 1000's of hands
There are milions of players playing on gg,how many employes you need to track all off this and have a good customer service? Hundredsy i guees they have like 20 employes for that :)
That explains better those who get 50k points /day with 60% vpip and playing everysingle day, playing agro until you hit your backdoor... They are at every stake on rush & cash
Doug, I was disappointed and surprised to see no video breaking down Garrets return to the table. Would be cool to see his hand Vs Patrick broken down.
Is this really a shock, this is why I don’t play online. Before Black Friday this was common practice and shut down a lot of these poker sites. I hate cheaters!!
The way this sounds is that GG let this go on for awhile, I mean after 1k hands and the stats where similar 3% 3-bet and 84% win rate should be a major red flag!!!
the "failing to force security updates to the client before allowing further play is the big one" everything else can be traced and resolved but that one specifically means that actors who have figured out this customization exploit can use it in a way that is not obvious over the short term and improving a win rate nominally can have drastic consequences. this is truly terrifying.
This is entirely wrong. You can never perfectly control the client. This is literally lesson 1 of writing secure services. You must always assume the client can be compromised by its user and make your software secure in spite of that. GG doesn’t even know lesson 1, and so they’re never going to be able to make their platform secure.
Before Black Friday ended online poker, my nephew was huge into it. He had two screens on his computer and would play eight games at a time along with his 4-5 friends all in the same games while together in the same basement room at his house. Needless to say, he was ranked 212 out of 10’s of thousands of players. His “cheating” was colluding with his buddies in the same physical room at his house. At 21 years of age he was profiting over 200k in 1 year. True story.
Spin & Gold is flawed against the player and its so evident. The spinner with stop on the edge of 100 or 50 or even 100000 but then tip over to $2 or $3. When the same thing happens on $2 or $3 it stays on that quadrant and doesn't tip over.
He didn’t get caught because he cheated; he got caught because he was greedy! Imagine how many didn’t get caught cause they were only pocketing 3bb to 7bb /100! This win rate is perfectly “human”
Probable that this exploit was left in deliberately by a senior developer, given how ridiculous it is to transmit all-in equity to the the client without a server verified all-in situation, rather than just an oversight?
I think they’re just incompetent. They had also been transmitting all players full names to every client until I reported it last year, and exposing everybody’s hole cards in replay data, relying on client side filtering. They also had an employee mode for PokerCraft that I could easily break into which exposed a ton of extra internal details about their architecture and systems. It’s not impossible that this particular exposure was deliberate but I think they’re just fucking inept.
Polk needs to make a follow up video on Dnegs and his utter silence about the site that cheated us, we bought what he sold, got cheated and he says nothing? Absolute FAIL
GGs explanation of the security sounds like nonsense. They couldn't fix the problem immediately because the hacker was still using their custom hacked client? No tech company worth anything would rely on client code to keep data secure. I must be missing something as they couldn't be that stupid.
2 things: first, GGp should have gave some of the money back to the players that were robbed by the cheater. Secondly, the cheater was dumb to win at such a high rate (good for everyone that he did, got caught fast). If he made some algorithm to slightly win, and maybe even make multiple accounts, this could have gone for a very long time and he could have stolen way more.
Just imagine all the cheaters out there who aren't that dumb when they play. And don't set off a 4th of July fireworks show with their ridiculous calls. 🤦😃
How can you ever trust online poker? I play very low stakes for practice (and winning) but I would never trust it to play significant money. Not only is the competition cut throat but there are so many cheating scandals, and for every scandal we hear about, there are probably 100 that never got caught. They only reason some cheaters get caught is because they get greedy and win at an outrageous rate. Imagine if this cheater had been smart and won at a reasonably high rate while playing quality hands and kept his VIP around 20% while moving up slowly in stakes. He could have made millions undetected over a few years.
So, what you're saying is I should move to LA and play at these really high stakes home games to actually be at profitable and fair games ??? Thanks Doug
I think rabbit hunt needs to go to, I've felt for a while that it could be a weak spot and have witnessed and received some plays and results where it felt like a player may have known the run out preflop but not their opponents hands on GG. I also play on Stars and have not particularly noticed this.
All these online poker sites are rigged. I have never seen aces come in as often as they do. I have won very few hands and I was always getting bad beats like I did. I stopped playing as I was sick of being ripped off.
Coverage will inspire millions more. The system is flawed. Plenty of shady things happening on PokerStars as well. Most cheaters have a disciplined system that allows them to lose some of the profits in order to not be suspected of cheating.
What's crazy to me is how blatant this example and the ultimatebet one in the past were. You could take somebody who is break even or a small winner at 25NL or 50NL and have them selectively superuser and they would crush and not look nearly as suspicious. I don't think this stuff is happening all the time but if we're relying on results and these crazy hands to catch this behavior you could definitely fly more under the radar.
You could but you can count on humans emotions like greed. Is the guy really folding to a bluff when he knows its a bluff just because his hand is suspicious? And he would need to do it everytime and not bluff etc. Which ye would make him fly more under the radar but if he then has a 30-40bb/100 winrate over like 30k hands it would still be statistical unreasonable at midstakes and people would notice it. Would just take a bit longer.
absolutely, just play your game and when the 3rd club hits the river and only a flush can beat you then take a peek, if he has the flush and you folded a straigt or a set it's just a great laydown
@@lexx9945 The problem is, if you randomize each hand to either cheat, or to play it normally, it would literally be impossible to tell when you're cheating and you would gain enough of an edge to be a winning player. I honestly don't see how you can see if someone is cheating using a randomization method.
In the long run they'll get caught. If there is a significant enough sample size. Correctly calling and folding to large river bets is going to get suspicious.
Imagine the amount of hackers smart enough not to screw up their stats or make impossible calls
lmao i was thinking the same thing like why make these crazy hero calls? all it does is draw negative attention but the greed overtakes the mind i guess
Its probably that theres not always intersection between those with the hacking skills and decent enough understanding of poker. If you get into poker starting with the intent of cheating from the beginning, you'll be more interested in exploiting the vulnerability you find while you still can instead of actually learning what legitimately successful poker players look like. And as the other commenter mentioned, greed is no doubt a big factor too.
@tylermokarry9731 long con when cheating is hard... one update could essentially destroy you. You need to go in quick exploit then bail. Mike posted style cheating is the one where he was really stupid. He literally could have milked it for years before getting caught. Not to take any interviews, lose some win some, keep a low profile... but dudes ego was too big.
Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.
Some people are just bad at poker and will play any hand and see the hand through or at least to the river. There’s also rich oilers who don’t care about money and will simply call to call, so you will always have users that do in fact make impossible calls possible because they’re either terrible or money means nothing to them.
« Double the size of our security team ». They will now be 2 security specialists at GG
Ah...I should have checked before I made my comment! Said the same thing.
Not true. They only had a half before. A 13 year old Russian Child who worked for chocolate bars. Now they have a 36 year old man to reply to the emails.
need higher rakes to support the security team
@@marksoutofzenfalse. The Russian child worked for Stolichnaya
If the me of the future is now in the past, how could you possibly know about it?
GG only made this statement when the comnunity found this out and the case started to gain popularity. It's crazy that with their security team they can't detect these things by themselves.
On top there not paying back all the money just money collected from the dudes account
There probably in on it! Wink, wink!
gg wont tell us even they detected some shit😂
To be fair to them they may have wanted to alert other potential victims of this exploit so they could also update rather than publicising it widely straight away.
If the me of the future is now in the past, how could you possibly know about it?
As always with these incidents, it’s not the cheater you should be concerned about. It is the fact they were only caught because they were stupid and greedy. How much clever undetected cheating is really going on…..we will never know.
The cheater was part of a white-hat hacking group. He wanted to 'get caught'.
We may never know the “number” but we also know it’s a big number
the only smart person in the comment section:
Alot! Ppl exploiting those poker websites years already. But they play smal ball and very very smart. They dont have big winnings, they dont have big leaps etc.
Actually they play for los from time to time, as every poker player experience lossess. They imitate normal player. Those kind will never be caught.
Poker has always been dominated by cheating. Live poker especially for over 100 years
Makes you think how many are out there superusing that are smart enough to stay within a reasonable winrate percentage.
Yeh the amount of dummies who rig things but don’t even understand the market/game they are playing
I accused them of this years ago with proof and they banned my account the next day
what? proof? thats crazy
Can you elaborate please?
Next time go to the community first, get some more people to independently confirm your findings.
Same happened to me at 888. @TheWiryWoodchuck They were supposed to send all my requested Hand Histories.. The file sent via email 'could not be opened' the "temporary restriction" on my account turned into a "permanent ban" without any explanation. They removed live chat - the only other way of contacting them was through their online help link which funnily enough read 'Page no longer exists'.
If the me of the future is now in the past, how could you possibly know about it?
I'm a coder and I'd really like to understand why the thumbs up/down feature would be the attack vector here. The software must be a complete POS.
Was thinking the same thing. Honestly I call bs and think it's more likely GG super using.
@@TiltyfishPoker Anyone care to extol further on this? I know nothing about coding but way too much about poker. Thumbs up / Down being an " attack vector " is it basically like they built a car that pushing the cig lighter turns on the engine or something. Please don't tell me its that level of retarded.
Probably some amount of spaghetti code that only people who left the company 5+ years ago can navigate, possibly the Windows client emulating something that's not native to Windows, maybe some newbie who doesn't understand it's okay to ask for help when adding features for a game played by adults for money. Those are my guesses, doubt they're interested in giving a presentation on exactly how much of a clown fiesta their software development is. Actually, it's weird to me that they would go into as much detail as they did, I think the Adobe Air part is just someone going "hey this thing is some doggy doodoo and we should switch" to their manager but even that got included in a public statement somehow.
It’s laughable. The idea that they need to have “renowned security professionals” to _not send card information early_ is insane. Even a relatively novice programmer should be able to figure it out.
If the me of the future is now in the past, how could you possibly know about it?
Doug.. Just to correct you on the Potripper thing.. I know it was a long time ago.. But the reason the entire thing kicked off was because a player requested the hand history because he wanted to review his play.
He was given full hand history that showed EVERY PLAYERS cards in the history report.. something that should not be possible. So this caused a major deal and everyone started looking at the stats and now knowing all hands could be seen it meant a super user account is possible.
This makes me question every dubious call someone has made against me on GG in the past. It is realistically unlikely that this person either was the first or even acted alone. I think they’re just the one who got caught by not being clever with their exploits (hello Robbi). It’s sad that it’s not been a level playing field and has tarnished GG for me.
💯% true
Doug, your content is second to none. Constantly continuing to get better despite the fact that you’re already leading the field. Cheers to you, my friend 🍻
Pretty lazy on the hand break downs. Could have had some better graphics making it easier on the eyes when showing the hands. Not just screen shots.
Thanks Doug, you have definitely helped me with my decision to not continue playing poker anywhere, even at the big casinos. You’re killing it buddy, really.
you should try slots it's literally a cash cow
May I recommend the lodge!
@@DougPolkPoker if u donate 2k to build my bankroll heads up 20$ sng . i may come in future
is Robi and Postle playing there?@@DougPolkPoker
Its a fair point as Casinos are built on charity@@donut5143
Cheating online is very rampant. Just go look at how prevalent it is with online video gaming. It’s an entire industry selling cheat software. Anyone who thinks it won’t be done with actual money involved is about as naive as it gets.
Sad thing is anyone with even slightly a bit of strategy not to get caught won’t.
it’s much more preventable in something like poker than in your usual video game. Sure, preventing AI or computer play is massively difficult, but keeping the cards secret should be very easy for an experienced team.
@@YT7mc it’s exponentially more prevalent in video games than poker. For $10 people can cheat in a video game and not be charged with stealing actual money. The ramifications are far less severe. Just look at the past year of all the cheaters being exposed in online chess tournaments for money. Yes they exist but you won’t see thousands banned every day for cheating at poker like you do in video games.
There's nothing shocking about this. Online poker has always been infested with cheating and it's impossible to stop it.
it is definitely impossible to stop some things with current technology. I could certainly multi-account on any platform in the world right now without any fancy gear. But client side hacks are pretty rare.
In this case it is interesting because it's a QoL feature. Something that probably didn't get as much QA as a core feature. The things from that forum post are legit callouts though. AI can probably tell them who is cheating with a pretty high degree of certainty, and they aren't even doing the poor mans version of that by just looking at easy to acquire analytics around VPiP and win frequency.
However, an ignorant statement about THEY'LL ALWAYS CHEAT is no more valuable than burying your head and assuming it never happens.
If GG is smart they'll start a watchdog foundation to audit their practices and get to some of the improvements and compliance that would make you confident at least from a technical perspective there wasn't any cheating going on.
That's why I hit and run 😂😂😂 switch tables minimum buy fu k it
I don't even play online poker but I do play online video games and I agree, it's impossible to stop it.
Absolutely don’t get fooled and play online never ending cheating
@pinkdink1210 I'm just curious . Why would anyone cheat on video games?
The way a white hat hacker group works is they participate in bounty programs where companies pay anyone who can uncover an exploit in their codebase. Alternatively, they might hack a company, show them proof that they were hacked, and then ask for payment to reveal the exploit they found.
North Koreas biggest income is their hacker network, run by Chinese and Russian experts.
Looks like GG didn't pay enough then, cause otherwise they wouldn't have created that 'MoneyTaker69' account. 😂
I thought we were done and over with these types of exploits more than 15 years ago! Also, GG's explanation post really makes it sound like the Windows client-side application is actually an emulator of a non-native platform to Windows, which is very concerning if that is so!
Also, this makes me wonder a lot about a lot of the "crushers" on GG, and how I'll often see very poor playstyles from MTT players who are boasting six-figure career winnings on the website. In contrast, most Pokerstars/Party/888 players with six-figure career winnings on those websites are some of the best MTT players in the world.
I think you mean 7-8 figure
@user-pw6lm1wu5t just curious what you're insinuating? that they make sure everyone has some wins and losses? like they use an algorithm to switch up your luck?
It is called "Player enhancement Software."
@user-pw6lm1wu5tto be fair, it’s impossible for a computer to emulate pure random, but yes some programs have better “randomization” algorithms than others
@@DougieBarclay Tons of players who had a lucky hit on Stars went on to become winning high-stakes grinders. Internett93o is a good example of a guy who won a complete crapshoot and has run with it since then.
This site is 100% scam cheaters or not this site is rigged
So is ACR. Any unregulated poker site is easy money for hackers
Can any online pokers sites be trusted?
Always got bad vibes about these platforms being exploitable by hackers.
Interesting video. I have had my theories about ACR and either bots or certain players have access to what most likely is seeded hands, which are then decoded by the player and used exploitatively to know the flop turn river. Or maybe they just have a hud that sees my cards. Geez
That said, some sites are best avoided, and as a good player, regardless, you avoid some players and move to better tables if you're losing to someone continuously.
ACR has such a bad reputation. I wouldn't give them a dime.
Thanks Doug for spotlighting this. I've stopped playing online for a while now for a few reasons. I think I'll stick to getting cheated at the brick and mortar rooms. 😁
Loved the “Robbie” hypothesis scenario. Too funny!
I always love corporate company lines because they always sound so soulless. Like what they wrote went through four drafts before it was approved by the legal department, they take no real responsibility and we're supposed to take them at their word that it won't happen again. When the community is able to out these scandals before they do doesn't help matter any.
It reminds you that huge companies always act in a reactive vs proactive state.
'Yeah the working conditions were unsafe and everybody from managers to entry level employees knew it, complaints and concerns were filed ... but Bob had to die first ... but we're sorry and we've fixed the situation now.'
Oh ok.
Remember the movie “Catch me if you can” ? GG should hire this dude to help them build a fire wall against other hackers
The reason you don’t publicly talk about an exploit until it’s patched and you’ve recouped as many of the illicit gains as you can is not to postpone the bad press. It is to A) not give the offender a chance to stash assets/ flee and more importantly B) not give other hackers an opportunity to take advantage of the same exploit while you are still vulnerable
Which is NEVER if you don't get called out publicly.
"Wasn't able to access servers or server data" ... "Was able to deduce all-in equity". Apparently all-in equity isn't server data to these guys🤔
When your thumbs up button leaks server data though... top tier programming
Why would the all-in equity odds percentage be broadcast to the client side prior to the hand reveal any way? It would appear that this is intentionally written into the code. That's scary.
So GG just blocked this single thumbs up thumbs down access vector to that information but didn't remove the that part of the code that sends the all-in equity to begin with. So to me, they didn't really fix the actual issue.
Just when I thought about trying online poker again after a hiatus from the Full Tilt scam
You been thinking for damn long about going back to online then!
hiatus...he says 😂
Well that is definitely happening at ACR, the sketchiness there is through the roof
But anytime you mention shady shit happening on Reddit or twoplustwo you will just get bombarded by poker hardos who say it's impossible to rig online poker and they have too much to lose to ever let it happen.
I got cheated by him and GG gave me the 100bbs back. Anyway, we get robbed by GG themselves because of the abusive rake so no surprise at all 🤣
The client should NEVER have private access to anything but personal hole cards!!
I guess that's how they managed to develop so many interactive features in little time. They just didn't give a f**k about security and allowed client access to restricted information. This is a disgraceful way to save time and money on software development. They shouldn't rely on clients not getting hacked.
Since they chose this shady business practice then there must be many other possible ways to get restricted information.
So shady 🤦♂️
I'm surprised that they admitted that to fix the issue a client side change was required. I don't know how someone can be that stupid but at the same time create software that functions at all. Also, as brilliant as Doug is, I'm surprised that this wasn't a red flag to him, even if he has never done any programming.
So the all-in equity data was sent to the client before they even went all-in ?
That's crazy..
Over 25 years playing online poker. Play tested 36 different companies software. Some still owe me money. Yeah, it's a wild wild world. I try to play at the sites banning Trackers and Bots. So not the most popular sites. 5-6 companies own all the poker sites. Choose wisely and I'll see you on the baize.
Maybe instead of spewing random stuff , u actually give some recommendations on this sites by name? Otherwise i don't see how u just not a big troll ...
I have my doubts it was the first. This is probably just the person who got greedy and stood out.
In all honesty though this should be a warning to people that poker sites likely aren't as secure as they would have us believe. You have to wonder what else is flying under the radar, especially with sophisticated AI becoming more prominent. Its going to take these sites a lot of money to keep up with it.
Well if we paid more rake the sites would have more money 😤 evidently more rake is better
@@Psiber_SynDaniel is that you?
The reason people are able to get away with it is because all of these people who defend these sites to the bitter end. These hackers don't just do this by themselves there is always a team so imagine how many of these hacker teams play on regulated and unregulated sites.
And to get an access to the servers you must work with internals together
I still can't believe people continue to play online scam poker and then accuse people of cheating when its the poker site itself that is scamming you out of your money. You think its just coincidence that you have a monster hand and your opponent manages to draw the 1 outter he needed to win after both of you shoved all in to cap out that rake? The data is out there for everyone to see but nobody bothers to look at it and say something. The playing more hands is just a scapegoat players use to lie to themselves that the game is legitimate. I've been playing poker for money since 1998, both online and at the casino, and roughly about the same amount of hands at each (never liked multi-tabling online). When it came to online play, I saw 100x more monster hands vs draws than I ever did on the felt. For example, I have only seen 2 royals at my table at the casino in 25+ years, meanwhile I have literally hit over 50 royals by myself online in half that amount of time, while sticking to just 1 table. So the whole "you play more hands online" comment people love to use to defend online poker is complete dog shit.
Damn how much money did you lose online?
Good video as always Vanessa!
On the PotRipper graph, I always thought it was interesting the player at 23VPIP losing at 350bb/hr? That has to be embezzlement, right?
A beautiful Robbi J4 cutaway montage. Excellent work! Well done!
Haven’t played online poker in years because of hackers and bots. Everyone claimed it was safe, but this proves it still is not.
And it will never be safe. The human element.
All.online. poker. Is. A. Scam.
There are still plenty of winners online. Making good money. This info is even publicly available with trackers.
Even Doug makes the point in a video, that even live is often rigged.
Played with cheaters physically in the same room telling each other their hole cards. I quit online playing right then and told the cheaters, thank you.
To be fair, this isn't as big a scam as GG's rake.
You have to assume people are running farms of cheating players, trying to stay under the radar, accumulating gains, tilting all the games against clean players. V depressing
I had multiple times when I thought some cheating was going on, the last one was a guy calling a perfect executed bluff on a K high board with flush and straight possibilities and he stone called me for more than 2.5k with 9 4 off after calling every street instantly
As an IT professional, NOTHING is 100% guaranteed to be safe. People will find an exploit and keep it quiet until they've had a chance to make their money (which is why it's so important to have periodic testing from valid 3rd party companies with state-of-the-art tools that today's hackers use to exploit those vulnerabilities). I still say the player could have a simulator to run the "all in equity" value with and determine probably hole cards. That's just reverse math.
I still play on PokerStars, but only in Microstakes as I currently don't trust the online poker system enough to feel safe playing for bigger stakes. I reserve that for at the casino for live cash and tournaments.
The amount of times you feel cheated on online poker is ridiculous people calling all in with nothing an hitting with 1 card to go all the time
that really is the nature of the game, amigo. it took me awhile to accept it also.
remember that you're doing well if you consistently get your money in good. continue to work on the strong points and weak points of your game and the results will show up for you in the long run.
I live in CR, I used to work for most of on line poker sites... Only one of them was ok with having in-house super-users...another was caught like Doug said, 15 years ago.
I wonder if GG is doing the same on a big scale, like people working from Home in UK or RUSSIA, Croatia, Montenegro..etc...this could be anywhere with a VPN, but broooo what the actual fuck, this could be bots programmed to be super-users.
💯
One way to absolutely prove the scam is to take % of newb/sub 5,000 profit accounts dumping stacks to plus 125k profit accounts compared to dumping stacks toward 25-75k profit accounts…I GUARANTEE the % is absurdly one sided!
If this was client side they were sending everyones hole cards to each client. Very odd choice
not really, the client displays odds to win during all in situations, so it might be that hacker exploited that and made the server spit out odds to win even if it wasnt all in
White hat refers to hackers who are hired by business to test their security.
Grey hat refers to hackers who hack websites, find exploits and sell them to the website for money.
Black hat refers to those who find exploits and sell them to malicious actors or who use them for their own profit.
Guess in what category a group named "moneytaker" fits.
When the blazer comes out you know it's serious
I am a IT guy, anything on a computer is hackable. There is a lot of money to be won from the fishes, but for sure someone can see other players cards. Computer codes are always hackable, but i think there are so few who are hacking poker sites. So goodluck to all
The guy probably could have more money (and legally) if he had approached GG and asked for a bug bounty.
Honestly, if GG has a security set-up this bad they probably think a "bug bounty" is about collecting insects.
I reported some similar (though less serious) issues last year and GG gave me $300, which is probably less than minimum wage for the amount of time I spent investing and writing a detailed report.
They don’t care about security.
If you play online poker youre doomed to be cheated
Why/how were the win percentages available client-side? That in itself seems very bad.
Well they show you on screen after you go all in and all action has closed, before the public cards are delt for suspence. Some sites like PS also have options where you can cash out for that % of your bet regardless if you win or loose (it's basically a break even stratagy to do and most good players have it turned off if you win), but some people hate sweating it).
The issue GG had was sending that info before it was (safe) to be shown (when no player was left to act in an all in situation).
what, so there's others out there exploiting this client customization feature and just being smarter about using it?
This is rampant and the reason I stopped playing years ago. These ‘cheaters’ are actually the poker sites themselves. The crazy hands you’ve shown here I have seen hundreds of times - from micro stakes to higher stakes. And the ‘cheaters’ are always Brits or Russians.
The sites make too much money out of rake to rig games, esp in micro stakes lol. Like, its non-sense. Now, an individual working at the company cheating, that could and very well prob does happen. "Crazy hands" happen in real life too.
tech noob here but surely there's a way to track the win rates of players on your site and flag the players with the highest win rates. have ai track their hands and check for suspicious activity. if there is something weird like those potripper hands going down then have a human verify that they're cheating and ban them before they get to play 1000's of hands
Yea, i thought thats how they did it. Very bizarre that they dont.
There are milions of players playing on gg,how many employes you need to track all off this and have a good customer service? Hundredsy i guees they have like 20 employes for that :)
@@k.a.6506 you don't need to track millions. just the players with obscene winrates
anyone playing online poker with todays AI, RTA, solvers and backdoors is quite frankly not very smart.
Yet there are hundreds of online pros who still make a very good income every year... I know because I am one
That explains better those who get 50k points /day with 60% vpip and playing everysingle day, playing agro until you hit your backdoor... They are at every stake on rush & cash
Doug, I was disappointed and surprised to see no video breaking down Garrets return to the table. Would be cool to see his hand Vs Patrick broken down.
2004 main event winner Russ Hamilton was behind the POTRIPPER account.... along with several other accounts.... What a POS
2004 was won by Greg Raymer. Russ won in 1994.
if he wasn't greedy he probably could have got away with this for years
playing 49% of your hands arouses suspicion? thats like 60-70% of players.
Is this really a shock, this is why I don’t play online. Before Black Friday this was common practice and shut down a lot of these poker sites. I hate cheaters!!
Potripper is back!
The way this sounds is that GG let this go on for awhile, I mean after 1k hands and the stats where similar 3% 3-bet and 84% win rate should be a major red flag!!!
the "failing to force security updates to the client before allowing further play is the big one" everything else can be traced and resolved but that one specifically means that actors who have figured out this customization exploit can use it in a way that is not obvious over the short term and improving a win rate nominally can have drastic consequences. this is truly terrifying.
time to go back to playing on Pstars for awhile I guess? lol
Hehe, nobody cheat on pokerstars :D @@shwnmnstr77
This is entirely wrong. You can never perfectly control the client. This is literally lesson 1 of writing secure services. You must always assume the client can be compromised by its user and make your software secure in spite of that.
GG doesn’t even know lesson 1, and so they’re never going to be able to make their platform secure.
He saw no hole cards but knew how strong he is? He saw only the opponent's odd's IMHO.
Before Black Friday ended online poker, my nephew was huge into it. He had two screens on his computer and would play eight games at a time along with his 4-5 friends all in the same games while together in the same basement room at his house. Needless to say, he was ranked 212 out of 10’s of thousands of players. His “cheating” was colluding with his buddies in the same physical room at his house. At 21 years of age he was profiting over 200k in 1 year. True story.
the isp would not allow that to take place more than one player
@@bobcatwelder00Was away to say the same thing.
@@bobcatwelder00there are ways around that
You can just talk over the phone, don’t need to be in the same space at all.
Happy Holidays Doug. Interesting story. Thank you.
i tell you hes a gg employee
Spin & Gold is flawed against the player and its so evident. The spinner with stop on the edge of 100 or 50 or even 100000 but then tip over to $2 or $3. When the same thing happens on $2 or $3 it stays on that quadrant and doesn't tip over.
He didn’t get caught because he cheated; he got caught because he was greedy! Imagine how many didn’t get caught cause they were only pocketing 3bb to 7bb /100! This win rate is perfectly “human”
Probable that this exploit was left in deliberately by a senior developer, given how ridiculous it is to transmit all-in equity to the the client without a server verified all-in situation, rather than just an oversight?
I think they’re just incompetent. They had also been transmitting all players full names to every client until I reported it last year, and exposing everybody’s hole cards in replay data, relying on client side filtering. They also had an employee mode for PokerCraft that I could easily break into which exposed a ton of extra internal details about their architecture and systems. It’s not impossible that this particular exposure was deliberate but I think they’re just fucking inept.
wow!
Lmaooo at 6:00 that was amazing. That one was a pure bluff catcher.
He couldn't see hole cards, he could see all-in equities.
For those that don't know, that's Doug's lonely blue dot at the bottom left of the chart 5:05
It's always funny when people get angry that there's cheating going on in online poker.... What did you think was going to happen.
Polk needs to make a follow up video on Dnegs and his utter silence about the site that cheated us, we bought what he sold, got cheated and he says nothing?
Absolute FAIL
GGs explanation of the security sounds like nonsense. They couldn't fix the problem immediately because the hacker was still using their custom hacked client? No tech company worth anything would rely on client code to keep data secure. I must be missing something as they couldn't be that stupid.
4:16 I feel bad for the dude with the 22% vpip and -360 bb/100. Poor guy never gets any attention with this graph.
So is the guy going to go to prison?
So just like when a business gets fined the confiscated monies are not given to an injured party but absorbed by a separate entity
2 things: first, GGp should have gave some of the money back to the players that were robbed by the cheater. Secondly, the cheater was dumb to win at such a high rate (good for everyone that he did, got caught fast). If he made some algorithm to slightly win, and maybe even make multiple accounts, this could have gone for a very long time and he could have stolen way more.
Just imagine all the cheaters out there who aren't that dumb when they play. And don't set off a 4th of July fireworks show with their ridiculous calls. 🤦😃
'breaaakkkiinnggg news' is the best intro ever with jungelman
How can you ever trust online poker? I play very low stakes for practice (and winning) but I would never trust it to play significant money. Not only is the competition cut throat but there are so many cheating scandals, and for every scandal we hear about, there are probably 100 that never got caught. They only reason some cheaters get caught is because they get greedy and win at an outrageous rate. Imagine if this cheater had been smart and won at a reasonably high rate while playing quality hands and kept his VIP around 20% while moving up slowly in stakes. He could have made millions undetected over a few years.
Always love the humor which you add on b/w your vids.. haha.. :D Love from India!
kinda confirms Robbi as a cheater
Basic reason I wont play online anymore. I don't trust the integrity of the games. This happens too often
You know shit is going down when Doug whips out the blazer
GG Security checking on Moneytaker:
GG Security: 'definitely rainman'
Poker community: 'yo blud is hacking'
GG Security: 'definitely hacking'
Damnit that MoneyTaker69 ruined it for the rest of us superusers.
So, what you're saying is I should move to LA and play at these really high stakes home games to actually be at profitable and fair games ??? Thanks Doug
I think rabbit hunt needs to go to, I've felt for a while that it could be a weak spot and have witnessed and received some plays and results where it felt like a player may have known the run out preflop but not their opponents hands on GG. I also play on Stars and have not particularly noticed this.
All these online poker sites are rigged. I have never seen aces come in as often as they do. I have won very few hands and I was always getting bad beats like I did.
I stopped playing as I was sick of being ripped off.
bro took everyones money with name moneytaker69 im dead x.x
Don't worry, guys; the odds are with us that there was only one cheater.
Hahaha.
Hackers never divulge the entry path, and never recruit trusted accomplices. We are completely fine.
Coverage will inspire millions more. The system is flawed. Plenty of shady things happening on PokerStars as well. Most cheaters have a disciplined system that allows them to lose some of the profits in order to not be suspected of cheating.
@@MarkH10you almost sound like you know what you’re talking about
my ass. Sounds like a dumbass got access to an exploit that has been around for a while
The "losing" at heads up is just the cheater moving money to his other accounts. Those accounts also need to be banned.
Very strong possibility, and should be investigated further.
Good theory!
My thoughts exactly.
Not necessarily. If you really are cheating then you want them to see that you're losing from time to time.
He lost 90 bucks boys, move it on.
What's crazy to me is how blatant this example and the ultimatebet one in the past were. You could take somebody who is break even or a small winner at 25NL or 50NL and have them selectively superuser and they would crush and not look nearly as suspicious. I don't think this stuff is happening all the time but if we're relying on results and these crazy hands to catch this behavior you could definitely fly more under the radar.
You could but you can count on humans emotions like greed. Is the guy really folding to a bluff when he knows its a bluff just because his hand is suspicious? And he would need to do it everytime and not bluff etc. Which ye would make him fly more under the radar but if he then has a 30-40bb/100 winrate over like 30k hands it would still be statistical unreasonable at midstakes and people would notice it. Would just take a bit longer.
absolutely, just play your game and when the 3rd club hits the river and only a flush can beat you then take a peek, if he has the flush and you folded a straigt or a set it's just a great laydown
@@lexx9945 The problem is, if you randomize each hand to either cheat, or to play it normally, it would literally be impossible to tell when you're cheating and you would gain enough of an edge to be a winning player. I honestly don't see how you can see if someone is cheating using a randomization method.
In the long run they'll get caught. If there is a significant enough sample size. Correctly calling and folding to large river bets is going to get suspicious.
Imagine he just played his account normal and waited for like a huge 5k tournament or something and cheated to victory
HTF does their security not automatically flag an account with 84bb winrate???????????????
What fucken security?
You answered your own question
@@GunRunner47 Yes, I did
@@fevolenko3995Because they are probably in to it, like all the other Poker softwares they make tons of money with this method.
I haven’t played online since black Friday and probably never will again.
Cheaters are like roaches, if you catch one there are 100 more out there.
Oh man please don't tell my wife that!
Online poker is just ridiculous.