So you want to allow people to have cell phones and read GTOw on their phones while playing live. Well then why not just allow friends to look at the cards and give a player advice from behind directly into their ear at the table? That's the same thing.
GTO solvers are only "optimal" for cash games. Tournament Theory Optimal (TTO) requires sacrificing a little equity in the current hand in order to maximize % to NOT get eliminated. What good is gaining .7 BB on average when blinds keep doubling and making the GTO play comes with a 40% chance of being knocked out of the tournament! TTO bet sizes (as opposed to GTO bet sizes) are often either $0 or an amount that would pot commit the short stack in the hand. That power bet can harvest all the available fold equity without much risk of a return bet for 100% of your chips by a non nut hand since the oversized bet makes bluffing attempts pointless. Seems like a crazy insight, but if a player NEVER has to risk all their chips - they absolutely will 100% win the tournament! If a player gets all-in with AA vs. 72 using perfect "unbeatable" GTO they will be getting maximum equity for that hand, but one hand does not a tournament win, and they absolutely will be beaten and eliminated from any tournament 16% the first time, and >99% if they happen to be lucky or foolish enough to keep repeating this TTO mistake by playing GTO developed for cash games.
It actually blows my mind they don't ban phones in a game with so much money on the line and so many ways to use a phone to your advantage. Even at my little hometown casino they do not allow any phone use at the table.
Phones are banned for players in a current hand. They want people to be able to use their phone once they fold since alot of wsop players play live while playing online tournaments on their phone
@@LetsAlllThinkTogether You're actually allowed to be on your phone during the hand if you're only playing the WSOP app. Being allowed to use your phone between hands is more about taking notes, changing music, sending texts, etc. There is a /lot/ of down time at a poker table. Some tables have fun vibes and you can talk and hang out but other tables sometimes you just want to text your friends or whatever while you wait for the next hand.
Surely if you need your phone so badly "to keep up with life" during a poker game then muck your cards, step away from the table and come back when you're ready. You don't need your phone at the table.
Back in the late 90s CA banned indoor smoking, including in card rooms. Lots of FUD that it would ruin the game, people wouldn't play, games would always be 1/2 filled etc. Games are fine. Whether addicted to tobacco or your phone, people can adjust to not having access.
100% of phone use is not addiction. A lot of people using the phones to run their businesses while at the poker table and some, I’d say many actually, that are not pro poker players, need to be able to check their phones many times throughout the day while playing poker. It’s not the same thing as being addicted to tobacco, it’s not even in the same class of things.
@@davids4063, writes _" It’s not the same thing as being addicted to tobacco [...]"_ Actually it is very similar, while it's not a physical addiction it can be a mental addiction -- many, many people will go through standard withdraw symptoms if you take their phone away.
@@LetsAlllThinkTogether I think this is the best way to make it universal. dealer can kill anyones hand if they touch a phone or have it screen up. if people have folded and (esp at wsop/main event type tourneys where you might not have cards for 3+ minutes regularly) if you want to text someone or whatever thats fine. I suppose ideally away from table too but in big crowded rooms thats harder to do.
Why would they not be allowed in a 30$ rebuy tournament? Tell me one good reason why this tourney should be treated the same as a$25k$ WSOP series event in terms of the rules for phones? Solution is simple in low stakes you allow phones at all time whatever the players want to do on their device , in mid stakes only forbid the use of phones when you personally are in a hand and in high stakes dont allow phones at all.
I have been a part of organizing tournaments around Europe for almost two decades. (Fields close to 1500 players per tournament) We have always banned the usage of phones as long as you have a hand. So as long as you have not folded it is a no-go, but as soon as you have folded your hand, you can use your phone again. I am actually surprised this is not the norm across the globe...
I played a lot in the era of no-phones at the table. Was great and people respected it. That said, people weren't as married to their phones at that time. In general, phones at the table bugs me. Even non-cheaters slow down the game.
I remember when smoking at the tables were allowed with guns. Not only did you worry about catching a stray... but lung cancer could also take you out. It was a great time !!
@@NotHappening-b8t I do think people should be allowed to vlog tho. Which kinda sucks for people that don't want to have to buy a separate camera to use to do so when their phone would work fine. But there is no way in hell I think a computer should be allowed out in use during a poker game. So vloggers should have to get another camera to use.
Am i crazy for thinking the rules about this should be totaly different depending ot the stakes. In my local casino where there are small stakes tourneys i am not really worried about old guy scrolling hes facebook app all the time while he is playing that he might go see a solution for a hand. In fact everybody is on the phone texting or watching youtube or scrolling instagram or whatever .All the time during the hand, inbetween the hand as he is putting chips in the pot and scrolling with the other hand. They should be able to, i would kinda agree with Tom Dwan it would severely inconvinience them. If it was a 10k Wsop event then its entirely different. I think the solutions is to allow phones all the time in low stakes, but ban them completely when it is a higher stakes game , maybe in mid stakes allow phones only in between hands. Do i make sense?
You're thinking from a card room owner's perspective and making MONEY. I'm a dealer and phones are a huge pain in the ass. I was always telling people they can't have their phone while in the hand, and they would argue, I'd have to call the floor, and because of it, I was making mistakes running the game. They always caused problems, no matter what.
I don’t follow why it’s even a blurry line. It is cheating unless you think the game is truly more luck than skill. Imagine phones at any other skill game tournament, like chess. Immediate ban.
The difference between chess and poker is that chess is a game of complete information. It's like playing poker knowing your opponent's hole cards, you know exactly what they have and therefore you know exactly how to counter it.
The rule should be that you can never have your phone on the table or in your hands at the table - also you can not step away from the table to use your phone while you have a hand. For really high limit games and the last few tables at a tournament it would make sense to remove all phones from the players while in the game.
You are correct, poker on ESPN definitely grew the game. How many people had phones on the table the year Moneymaker won? How many phones were at the table during Helmuths wins, Negraneaus wins, Ivys wins.....my point exactly. You wanna play low stakes non tournament poker, sure use your phone, if its a tourney, no phones. Simple.
@@viniciuscollacoPracticing in general is great. But you can and should do it off table at home using the convenient trainer tool in GTO wizard that lets you set up drills and then play against the GTO bots to train thousands if not millions of different spots. If you wanna practice your ranges, do it at home, but when you come to the casino to play that doesn’t mean you get to check the chart every hand. That’s not fair to the players that have actually put in the off-table work and done the study and memorization over hundreds if not thousands of hours at home in preparation for tourneys.
What I don't understand is why people want to use their phone while they're in a hand anyways? I know when I'm in a hand all my attention and focus is on winning the hand, nothing else. Looking at my phone isn't even a thought.
the harder it is to enforce a rule, the harsher you make the penalty to discourage the act. allow phones, but DQ anyone using a solver. even in between hands; you need to memorize the hand and analyze later. that's always been a skill needed for improving your poker.
thats bullshit. would you bann chess players checking engine between games as well? why the hell do you care what people do on their phones while they are not in hand?? you creep..
@@richardsimmonseternal7590 no dude. this makes for a bad environment, everyone checking on everyone what they are doing on the phones. make it easy, check your effing hands when the game is over. can you not wait for that? this is how poker is studied. you write down your hands in a notebook, you study them later. or you just memorize them. just have the phones down for an emergency call. if caught cheating, ban from the game forever.
The harder it is to enforce a rule, the less compliance you'll get & the more effort you'll waste enforcing it. 'No phones at tables' is easy to understand, easy to enforce, and stops players using solvers. And if you need to note your hands down for later analysis, pencil & paper has worked a treat for generations of poker players... why stop now.
Always entretaining to watch Doug give his opinions with jokes mixed in between. Doug, please, more videos like this, doesn't even need to be poker related
"There are many many stories from the wild west gambling saloon days, where people would cheat, knowing that they could get killed for doing so" ...can we go back to this being the standard, entirely legal response to cheating? Please?
Great point about the content, Doug. I got more 'into' the game after watching vloggers, live streams etc. They do a lot for the game. Tons of great shorts out there too that are funny but also about poker (which go viral). Excited to visit the Lodge in August for the Monster tourney
I love the joke about still gambling on their sportsbook and app, it’s very characteristic of a casino, I got busted counting at a Detroit casino, they politely asked me to grab my chips, follow them, they took me to the cage and told me I could not play anymore card games in the casino, but I was welcome to play all other games then compted me a room
I'm all for making sure you're going after somebody for the right reasons, but the guy had GTO Wizard open, he just hadn't used it yet. If I walk into a bank and take out a firearm and approach the teller, and then she recoils and I say, "WAIT - I didn't even say I was going to rob you!" then the bank is still entitled to draw the obvious inference.
I think it's a bad comparison. I think it's closer to a guy walking in a bank with a concealed weapon and being arrested before pulling it out or doing anything.
@@mully107 walking by a bank with a concealed weapon is something you could do for a number of innocent reasons that have nothing to do with bank robbery. Walking to a teller with an exposed firearm isn't. This guy had GTOWizard open on his phone, during a hand. There is no innocent reason you'd do that, unlike casually walking by a bank with a concealed firearm, so the original analogy is much closer than yours. Even if by SOME miracle this guy needed to use GTO Wizard for reasons that had nothing to do with the current hand, a reasonable person would think, "Oh if I do this it will seem very suspicious", just like somebody walking up to a teller that for some unknown reason that had nothing to do with robbery, he had to have his firearm out.
Poker tournaments are just like tests in school. Looking at GTO wizards is equivalent to bringing an answer sheet to tests 😅 of course it’ll drive out casual or even pro poker players . Imagine someone using a chess bot during a chess competition
People in my classes used to be going over their study notes until the moment tests got handed out, much like someone looking up a spot on GTO wizard after folding while waiting until they get their next hand. (the person in that twitter thread didn't have cards) If the person isn't involved in a hand, it makes no difference to me if they look at a chart at the table or in the bathroom.
In Brazil, according to the rule, if a player has their phone in their hand when the dealer is distributing cards, they will not be dealt their cards. Furthermore, if a player takes out their phone during the course of a hand, their hand is considered dead.
There are a few rooms near me and if any one of them would ban phones I would exclusively play there. It's not even cheating I'm worried about (although obviously it occurs), it's players not paying attention, being slow or distracted, and just generally being disengaged and not creating an enjoyable atmosphere.
I rather you not pay attention because i am watching you make mistakes & make bad calls -- and spreading your money all over the place. Thats more fun than talking about soccer moms and sports I don't play.
For any officially organized tournament there shouldn’t be phones, tablets, headphones, etc. I get why people wear sunglasses, but even then people will try to look at your hand. If you need to bring spreadsheets or have an app to calculate your odds, you aren’t good enough to be at a competitive event
With the ever advancing technology, relaying signals to a rigged player in the middle of a game is only going to get more sophisticated. Organisers should realise that, by now…
Given what you say, I won't be shocked to find out that it's already happening and the cheaters are actually very good at it. These morons getting "caught" with an app open on their phone are not the people I'd be worried about.
Lodge member here. It couldn't hurt to run a couple of tourneys (maybe the weekend evening tourneys) without phones and see how it goes. Would be interesting to see everyone's reaction in real time
If one out three players won't play without their phones, then we've identified the people who are cheating or using the phones as a crutch. The heck with them all. They will be replaced by the honest players that they have driven away from the tables. You wouldn't play tennis against someone who took unfair advantage, like using a racket 2x larger than standard.
Competitive TCGs prohibit accessing phones during matches. It's doable to do the same at tables. Easier, even, as each table has an authority figure in the dealer, which isn't so with TCG events.
First, I agree 100% with your assessment on this....I do have one question: is talking to your coach between hands at the rail almost the same? Love the channel!
The only people who want phones are degens. Haha. Most I have seen is people just saying if you want to use your phone you have to leave the table. I don't think it's that unreasonable.
In the State of South Dakota use of cell phone while in a hand at poker table is banned by the gaming commission actually, stemming from an incident of suspected collusion. It is very much enforced you actually have to stand up and step away to use phone.
Said it before, and I'll say it again- why on earth are phones allowed to be brought out at the tables? There is zero reason to allow it, and so many reasons to ban it.
actually skilled players should easily be able to commit to playing without a device on hand, the "having stuff to do" argument from dwan doesn't make much sense in light of him being an actual professional player who makes his entire living from the game, the "stuff to do" could surely wait until after the game?
The professionals also know they're supposed to be folding the majority of their hands, which means the majority of the time you're not actively involved in what's happening at the table. I'm fine with people playing on their phones, I don't even care if they look at charts, because maybe they won't notice patterns in the way I'm playing. Professionals want people on their phones so they have a disadvantage of information from being distracted.
@@Nerdsie This is true. Playing passively vs one player and aggro the next, those on the phone have no idea I'm adapting, and also how to adapt to other players themselves. Is a huge edge in the £200-£500 tournies I play.
@@verdesmarald Often it's online poker, and if you're playing an online tournament with 100k up top, you don't want to have to put your phone away and pull it out to realize you auto-folded aces
It amazes me that using software during a game is even debated, to be honest. Of course it shouldn't be used. As far as phone bans. A ban wouldn't stop me from playing. But also, I'd just be okay with if anyone is caught using software during game. Just making it auto DQ. I don't think a phone ban would stop many people from playing either. If people want to play poker they'll play poker.
I mean, is it bad to use steroids in mma only during a fight? No, it's banned at all times. So, if this is cheating, then using range charts and whatnot out of a tournament to get better is also cheating. Nobody had to figure the info out themselves. They're all using information someone else figured out. So it's not like each player had to do it themselves, but this guy is the only one using community information. If they all use it, why ban it during play?
I actually tried it... and yes they don't care. I was trying to learn how to play and the dealer encouraged it. What happens when you win ? You give it back through tips to dealer... you eat at their restaurants... $$ you buy drinks and tip waitress... It feeds on its own ecosystem !! The HOUSE always.... I mean ALWAYS wins.
@@AlexanderJordan-sv7nm They also do it because regulars stop playing if the table is always just doing random things, because it can ruin their strategy.
I play regularly at a casino with a rule that you can't use your phone while in a hand. I've always thought it was a good rule, incase two friends are at the same table they can't cheat by texting what they have. When I play at other casinos and people are using their phone while in a hand it always feels icky, since I'm so use to it not being allowed.
Matt savage coordinated a no phones, no hoodies, no headphone tournament a few years ago at the Commerce casino and they did get a lot of players. It was ok. You could use it on breaks
All he did was make it look like he was cheating to troll the locals. Weird a year and a half and not a shred of actual evidence. Just influencers n blonde chick who lied about all the so called data for attention
I ubered 4 guys from out of town to the lodge who came to meet you for the first time. You have done more for poker than you know. Keep up the great content. ❤
Simple solution, have no phone tables and/or tournaments so that those who don't want phones can feel motivated to play in that environment. Ban GTO wizard for those tourneys that allow phones.
I think phones should be in pockets while at the table. if you need to get it you have to step away from table. if you have to leave for a phone trip you have to be in a designated area in the room to use phone and your next hand you return will be automatically mucked discouraging players from leaving the table to use phone. if phone is out at table you get 1 warning. 2nd time you have to be penalized one orbit. 3rd time dqed. if in a series 4 time you cant register in a tourney for rest of series.
No phones during the hand seems standard to me. I also agree with not looking at solvers or anything in between hands, if it’s an MTT do it on dinner break or in the bathroom if you want, I don’t care what you do away from the table. I listen to music when I play basically always. When I play live, I try to be social so I keep one earbud out and make sure it’s low enough to hear people and talk to them. I never have to really touch my phone for more than a few seconds. I’ll put a playlist on shuffle and let it go. Once in a while I’ll hit next on the lock screen x times to find a new song, so a couple taps and that’s it. Maybe once every hour or two (varies) when I’m not in a hand I’ll switch playlists or do something of that sort. I’ve never had any issues doing that at home games, cash or MTT at a casino, and I’ve been playing poker forever. I used to have an iPod touch or whatever those were called just for poker. I haven’t played on a livestream, but I’ve played with cameras around a couple times and with microphones attached to your shirt or w/e (been a long time lol) twice. One time they let me continue to listen to music which in hindsight was crazy, it was an HPT FT (sick brag) and filmed for local TV. When I got a copy of it, there were a couple hands during 3 handed and HU (I lost) where you could p clearly hear music. I listened to hip hop and I def heard a few curse words, and could make out what song was playing and the lyrics a few times. Mostly you couldn’t hear it, or it was very faint, but during a couple big pots or all ins when the announcers were quiet it was VERYYYY clear 😂. I doubt more than a couple hundred ppl saw that tho. It was a super long time ago and HPT here was replaced by MSPT I think. The other times they just asked me to take my earbud out, and if it’s deep in a tournament I have 0 issues with that. Just my thoughts. If I had to go get a device that wasn’t able to send messages but could store music (do those even exist anymore?) specifically for non home game live poker like the iPod touch I had way back, fine. But as long as you don’t slow down action, you can still hear people and it doesn’t make you completely anti social especially at home games, you aren’t actively using a phone during the hand or literally watching a movie on an iPad (yes I’ve seen this multiple times, p sure Deeb did it once) I don’t care. ✌️
They did it for many years at the Casinos in the Northeast. I remember Mohegan finally allowed it during the NAPT because D'Negs and couple of other pros wanted it lifted. After that they allowed it. During that time though solvers weren't even a thing.
I've been playing poker in casinos since '04. It has gone from a non-issue to no phones to "everyone needs their phone." No phones when you're in a hand.
Professional poker has to be considered in the same light as other professional sport, Performance enhancing drugs are banned across the board. Using performance enhancing software,during a poker tourney is exactly the same as using a drug. Phones must be banned from all tourney tables. If players don't like it,too bad,..rules are rules and they will learn to live with it.
It’s kind of funny. When I was a tournament director in an amateur league, I had a venue where the older crowd kept complaining about phones at the table. Mainly because players took too long to act. It got so bad I literally banned phones unless they were playing music. YES, phones SHOULD BE banned. But the rule I would word it would be “no phones allowed while sitting at a live table. In the event that a player is caught FOR ANY reason having a phone or other electronic device, a FULL BlIND penalty will be applied for first offense. A subsequent offense will result in a full disqualification.”
I don't know ANYTHING about any of these programs or apps or A.i., so my knowledge of their purpose or advantages they provide is irrelevant, but to me...i feel like poker (just like any other game or sport) requires ability and skills to become one of the best. If you need to use ANYTHING extra that EVERYONE involved in the game is not also using then you shouldn't be at the table. If people want or need to use a program then every player in the game should be using the exact same program. In any other sport every player involved is issued matching equipment and one set of rules to abide by. Everyone starts on an equal playing field, the only thing that gives you an upper edge is your personal abilities that you had to train yourself to have.... That's why steroids and P.E.Ds are not allowed. My personal opinion on apps and programs and ai and all that other shit is that it's equal to a player using steroids against a player who's not.
The card house I play at does not allow any solvers or charts at the table in addition to can not use your phone while in a hand and can not take a phone call unless you step away from the table
Doug, I got into poker as part of the 'Moneymaker' effect in '03' and have been consuming poker content ever since. I watched a couple of your videos in the early days of this channel but stopped watching because you were shouting at me in every one of them. I'm glad to see that you have changed that and are now talking to me in a NORMAL voice. I'll watch a few more of your vids and if the trend continues I may even subscribe this time. Thank you for the change.
I think phone's should be banned players should have to "present" while playing but that's just my personal opinion, you don't need to use a phone to vlog you can use a camera which has less capabilities
10:00 Where are you going to put people's phones? How are you going to deal with collecting, holding, and then returning 100+ people's phones in a large tournament? Do people have to wait around? Are you going to pay out when somebody's phone is inevitably lost? How does insurance feel about this? Can people plan dinner etc.? It makes sense in your card room but for an out of towner, and even moreso an out of country-er who might rely on a translation app to get around, no phone is a complete non option. collecting phones has so many logistical challenges that outweigh how it is the purely best option from a pure playing poker perspective.
In my opinion though, the whole point of poker is playing human vs. human , if one has better memory, smarter, better learner, that is his/her advantage. This is a game, where a human "fights" an other human. Not a job where you can use whatever tool you have your hands on. It's like you could use an encyclopaedia in a Who wants to be a millionaire show.
There was a time when I started playing that phones weren't allowed at the table. The first place I was allowed to used a phone at the table was in Vegas and it slowly made its way to my local casinos.
Get better at poker (but do it later!) with Lucid GTO Trainer: upswingpoker.com/lucid-gto-trainer/
BREAKING NEWS. Doug "The Punk" Polk, goes 3 seconds without talking about himself!!!
Dose Jeff boski use it on twitch he’s the one you have to watch
So you want to allow people to have cell phones and read GTOw on their phones while playing live. Well then why not just allow friends to look at the cards and give a player advice from behind directly into their ear at the table? That's the same thing.
GTO solvers are only "optimal" for cash games. Tournament Theory Optimal (TTO) requires sacrificing a little equity in the current hand in order to maximize % to NOT get eliminated. What good is gaining .7 BB on average when blinds keep doubling and making the GTO play comes with a 40% chance of being knocked out of the tournament! TTO bet sizes (as opposed to GTO bet sizes) are often either $0 or an amount that would pot commit the short stack in the hand. That power bet can harvest all the available fold equity without much risk of a return bet for 100% of your chips by a non nut hand since the oversized bet makes bluffing attempts pointless. Seems like a crazy insight, but if a player NEVER has to risk all their chips - they absolutely will 100% win the tournament! If a player gets all-in with AA vs. 72 using perfect "unbeatable" GTO they will be getting maximum equity for that hand, but one hand does not a tournament win, and they absolutely will be beaten and eliminated from any tournament 16% the first time, and >99% if they happen to be lucky or foolish enough to keep repeating this TTO mistake by playing GTO developed for cash games.
I have a video of Ebony Kenny using GTO Wizard in the ACR Venom
Somehow people have been playing poker for the past 200 years without phones.
And with out internet too. So I guess it's time to banned online poker.
"somehow people have been living for the last 2394732874378 years without electricity"
@@ProfGlitchElectricity is cheating?
@@ProfGlitch You don't need electricity to play poker, either!
@@clifforddavidson7273lol online poker is already banned here in Australia smh
It's incredibly simple: no phones while you have an active hand. If you do, hand is dead. No warnings. That will make both sides happy.
Happy to see that someone else also can see the blindingly obvious! Why is that apparently so hard?
And the we still get the cool videos of amateur games.
so easy even a caveman can do it.
pocket 2s? *pulls out phone*
@@fearlv1rattata Same as "pocket 2s? pushes glasses up on nose or scratches ear"
It actually blows my mind they don't ban phones in a game with so much money on the line and so many ways to use a phone to your advantage. Even at my little hometown casino they do not allow any phone use at the table.
Phones are banned for players in a current hand. They want people to be able to use their phone once they fold since alot of wsop players play live while playing online tournaments on their phone
@@LetsAlllThinkTogether You're actually allowed to be on your phone during the hand if you're only playing the WSOP app. Being allowed to use your phone between hands is more about taking notes, changing music, sending texts, etc. There is a /lot/ of down time at a poker table. Some tables have fun vibes and you can talk and hang out but other tables sometimes you just want to text your friends or whatever while you wait for the next hand.
Regardless you play a lot you know odds.
Surely if you need your phone so badly "to keep up with life" during a poker game then muck your cards, step away from the table and come back when you're ready. You don't need your phone at the table.
No phones allowed by any player actively in a hand. Phone must be turned upside-down or put away.
Exactly it's really not that difficult
That is what they do at my local room. 2 players at the same table can relay information about the cards the folded or other angles using a phone
This is what they do at my local poker room aswell. Most sensible solution imo.
Exactly
.
Back in the late 90s CA banned indoor smoking, including in card rooms. Lots of FUD that it would ruin the game, people wouldn't play, games would always be 1/2 filled etc. Games are fine. Whether addicted to tobacco or your phone, people can adjust to not having access.
Whether addicted to tobacco or your phone, people will always be more addicted to gambling 😉
Yea . Nowadays it’s all BGN at the tables .
That's not just poker and it wasn't banned for game reasons. Not even the same conversation.......
100% of phone use is not addiction. A lot of people using the phones to run their businesses while at the poker table and some, I’d say many actually, that are not pro poker players, need to be able to check their phones many times throughout the day while playing poker. It’s not the same thing as being addicted to tobacco, it’s not even in the same class of things.
@@davids4063, writes _" It’s not the same thing as being addicted to tobacco [...]"_
Actually it is very similar, while it's not a physical addiction it can be a mental addiction -- many, many people will go through standard withdraw symptoms if you take their phone away.
It's insane that phones are allowed at an irl poker table.
Dude openly admitted to using it and somehow was beaten or banned
They're not supposed to be allowed during the hand. Aka players who fold, can Check their phone after they fold
Shouldn't be allowed to use the software online either ..
@@LetsAlllThinkTogether I think this is the best way to make it universal. dealer can kill anyones hand if they touch a phone or have it screen up. if people have folded and (esp at wsop/main event type tourneys where you might not have cards for 3+ minutes regularly) if you want to text someone or whatever thats fine. I suppose ideally away from table too but in big crowded rooms thats harder to do.
Why would they not be allowed in a 30$ rebuy tournament? Tell me one good reason why this tourney should be treated the same as a$25k$ WSOP series event in terms of the rules for phones? Solution is simple in low stakes you allow phones at all time whatever the players want to do on their device , in mid stakes only forbid the use of phones when you personally are in a hand and in high stakes dont allow phones at all.
I have been a part of organizing tournaments around Europe for almost two decades. (Fields close to 1500 players per tournament) We have always banned the usage of phones as long as you have a hand. So as long as you have not folded it is a no-go, but as soon as you have folded your hand, you can use your phone again. I am actually surprised this is not the norm across the globe...
I played a lot in the era of no-phones at the table. Was great and people respected it. That said, people weren't as married to their phones at that time. In general, phones at the table bugs me. Even non-cheaters slow down the game.
I remember when smoking at the tables were allowed with guns. Not only did you worry about catching a stray... but lung cancer could also take you out. It was a great time !!
Where are you playing at so I can tank fold every hand while watching ufc
@@MarsMarshal810 invite only
I think phones should have been banned at the table as soon as they became mini computers in our pockets. It's that simple.
anything electronic really. within reason i guess. i learned people will always lie, cheat, steal etc. so i just avoid the bs
@@NotHappening-b8t I do think people should be allowed to vlog tho. Which kinda sucks for people that don't want to have to buy a separate camera to use to do so when their phone would work fine. But there is no way in hell I think a computer should be allowed out in use during a poker game. So vloggers should have to get another camera to use.
@@NotHappening-b8tnice idea, but casinos want you sitting in your seat. People arent gonna be away from their phone for long.
Am i crazy for thinking the rules about this should be totaly different depending ot the stakes. In my local casino where there are small stakes tourneys i am not really worried about old guy scrolling hes facebook app all the time while he is playing that he might go see a solution for a hand. In fact everybody is on the phone texting or watching youtube or scrolling instagram or whatever .All the time during the hand, inbetween the hand as he is putting chips in the pot and scrolling with the other hand. They should be able to, i would kinda agree with Tom Dwan it would severely inconvinience them. If it was a 10k Wsop event then its entirely different. I think the solutions is to allow phones all the time in low stakes, but ban them completely when it is a higher stakes game , maybe in mid stakes allow phones only in between hands. Do i make sense?
It’s that simple
You're thinking from a card room owner's perspective and making MONEY. I'm a dealer and phones are a huge pain in the ass. I was always telling people they can't have their phone while in the hand, and they would argue, I'd have to call the floor, and because of it, I was making mistakes running the game. They always caused problems, no matter what.
So “grown up” poker players are really just middle school kids?
Live poker dies as we know it if you ban phones entirely. Sorry! Not happening.
So you are incompetent ??
Those players come to your room because they have been banned from the others🎉
What? As a tournament player I’d also not like for ANY % of the field to not play. It makes your buy in worth less and makes the tournament less fun
This is by far your best blog i have ever seen on your channel. Very well said and put. I can say the poker world needed this. KUDDOS.
I don’t follow why it’s even a blurry line. It is cheating unless you think the game is truly more luck than skill.
Imagine phones at any other skill game tournament, like chess. Immediate ban.
The difference between chess and poker is that chess is a game of complete information. It's like playing poker knowing your opponent's hole cards, you know exactly what they have and therefore you know exactly how to counter it.
The rule should be that you can never have your phone on the table or in your hands at the table - also you can not step away from the table to use your phone while you have a hand. For really high limit games and the last few tables at a tournament it would make sense to remove all phones from the players while in the game.
@@ticenits1926 Then why aren't all the professional chess players tied as #1 in the world?
@@ticenits1926 That's illogical. Chess is a good analogy. Using outside assistance bridges the gap between the good and lesser players.
Poker IS more luck than skill, but your point still stands.
You are correct, poker on ESPN definitely grew the game. How many people had phones on the table the year Moneymaker won? How many phones were at the table during Helmuths wins, Negraneaus wins, Ivys wins.....my point exactly. You wanna play low stakes non tournament poker, sure use your phone, if its a tourney, no phones. Simple.
Pretty simple. If you get caught using GTO software or silvers while at a table at WSOP, you get a lifetime ban.
you get banned from life*
If you want to pratice through GTO wizard during the tournament?
@@viniciuscollacoPracticing in general is great. But you can and should do it off table at home using the convenient trainer tool in GTO wizard that lets you set up drills and then play against the GTO bots to train thousands if not millions of different spots. If you wanna practice your ranges, do it at home, but when you come to the casino to play that doesn’t mean you get to check the chart every hand. That’s not fair to the players that have actually put in the off-table work and done the study and memorization over hundreds if not thousands of hours at home in preparation for tourneys.
@@viniciuscollaco don't do it
@@viniciuscollaco how idiotic is that. if you want to play football while in church? if you want to read books while in an exam? do it after!
What I don't understand is why people want to use their phone while they're in a hand anyways? I know when I'm in a hand all my attention and focus is on winning the hand, nothing else. Looking at my phone isn't even a thought.
the harder it is to enforce a rule, the harsher you make the penalty to discourage the act. allow phones, but DQ anyone using a solver. even in between hands; you need to memorize the hand and analyze later. that's always been a skill needed for improving your poker.
thats bullshit. would you bann chess players checking engine between games as well? why the hell do you care what people do on their phones while they are not in hand?? you creep..
Nah, nothing wrong with looking at Charts if you don’t have cards
@@richardsimmonseternal7590 no dude. this makes for a bad environment, everyone checking on everyone what they are doing on the phones. make it easy, check your effing hands when the game is over. can you not wait for that? this is how poker is studied. you write down your hands in a notebook, you study them later. or you just memorize them. just have the phones down for an emergency call. if caught cheating, ban from the game forever.
@richardsimmonseternal7590 if you allow it between hands, it's harder to disallow it during hands.
The harder it is to enforce a rule, the less compliance you'll get & the more effort you'll waste enforcing it. 'No phones at tables' is easy to understand, easy to enforce, and stops players using solvers. And if you need to note your hands down for later analysis, pencil & paper has worked a treat for generations of poker players... why stop now.
Always entretaining to watch Doug give his opinions with jokes mixed in between. Doug, please, more videos like this, doesn't even need to be poker related
Thanks for the shoutout, the Upswing boys know what's up!!
so random, Upswing has a guy with the same name as you
@@newstandardaccount hahaha what are the odds
"There are many many stories from the wild west gambling saloon days, where people would cheat, knowing that they could get killed for doing so"
...can we go back to this being the standard, entirely legal response to cheating? Please?
I’m down
Great point about the content, Doug. I got more 'into' the game after watching vloggers, live streams etc. They do a lot for the game. Tons of great shorts out there too that are funny but also about poker (which go viral). Excited to visit the Lodge in August for the Monster tourney
I love the joke about still gambling on their sportsbook and app, it’s very characteristic of a casino, I got busted counting at a Detroit casino, they politely asked me to grab my chips, follow them, they took me to the cage and told me I could not play anymore card games in the casino, but I was welcome to play all other games then compted me a room
I'm all for making sure you're going after somebody for the right reasons, but the guy had GTO Wizard open, he just hadn't used it yet.
If I walk into a bank and take out a firearm and approach the teller, and then she recoils and I say, "WAIT - I didn't even say I was going to rob you!" then the bank is still entitled to draw the obvious inference.
of course. oh i dropped by accident the phon and gto wizard opened. no, dude. you wanted to get into it. intentions do matter in court.
I think it's a bad comparison. I think it's closer to a guy walking in a bank with a concealed weapon and being arrested before pulling it out or doing anything.
@@mully107 walking by a bank with a concealed weapon is something you could do for a number of innocent reasons that have nothing to do with bank robbery. Walking to a teller with an exposed firearm isn't.
This guy had GTOWizard open on his phone, during a hand. There is no innocent reason you'd do that, unlike casually walking by a bank with a concealed firearm, so the original analogy is much closer than yours.
Even if by SOME miracle this guy needed to use GTO Wizard for reasons that had nothing to do with the current hand, a reasonable person would think, "Oh if I do this it will seem very suspicious", just like somebody walking up to a teller that for some unknown reason that had nothing to do with robbery, he had to have his firearm out.
@@newstandardaccount Yep, logging in to GTOW is the same as readying (drawing) your weapon in a bank.
@@DreadX10 I'm not claiming they're the same thing - it is an analogy. A is to B as X is to Y. That's different than claiming A and X are the same.
Poker tournaments are just like tests in school. Looking at GTO wizards is equivalent to bringing an answer sheet to tests 😅 of course it’ll drive out casual or even pro poker players . Imagine someone using a chess bot during a chess competition
People in my classes used to be going over their study notes until the moment tests got handed out, much like someone looking up a spot on GTO wizard after folding while waiting until they get their next hand. (the person in that twitter thread didn't have cards) If the person isn't involved in a hand, it makes no difference to me if they look at a chart at the table or in the bathroom.
poker tournaments are not tests -- Give it a rest !! so many bad comparisons....
I noticed at some casinos, there's no reception in the card room, now i know why. Lol
In Brazil, according to the rule, if a player has their phone in their hand when the dealer is distributing cards, they will not be dealt their cards. Furthermore, if a player takes out their phone during the course of a hand, their hand is considered dead.
There are a few rooms near me and if any one of them would ban phones I would exclusively play there. It's not even cheating I'm worried about (although obviously it occurs), it's players not paying attention, being slow or distracted, and just generally being disengaged and not creating an enjoyable atmosphere.
I rather you not pay attention because i am watching you make mistakes & make bad calls -- and spreading your money all over the place. Thats more fun than talking about soccer moms and sports I don't play.
For any officially organized tournament there shouldn’t be phones, tablets, headphones, etc. I get why people wear sunglasses, but even then people will try to look at your hand. If you need to bring spreadsheets or have an app to calculate your odds, you aren’t good enough to be at a competitive event
With the ever advancing technology, relaying signals to a rigged player in the middle of a game is only going to get more sophisticated. Organisers should realise that, by now…
Given what you say, I won't be shocked to find out that it's already happening and the cheaters are actually very good at it. These morons getting "caught" with an app open on their phone are not the people I'd be worried about.
Not sure why chess players can do without their phones, but poker players can't.
Ban the phones. Players will adapt.
Yeah, some by not playing
@@MeMe-in8tj Their loss.
Lodge member here. It couldn't hurt to run a couple of tourneys (maybe the weekend evening tourneys) without phones and see how it goes. Would be interesting to see everyone's reaction in real time
No phones. Phone in a box at your position in case you have “stuff to do”. You get a call, take your phone away from the table and do your stuff.
I think no phones is a great idea. People are addicted to everything, especially their phones, it would be good for humanity.
If I'm in a hand, can I have a person behind me telling me what I should do? If not, then why should you be able to use gto wizard
Lmao at the Berkey impersonation
yeah, that was hilare
Simple solution, absolutely no phones or tablets at the table. I still don't see why this isn't a rule. Used to be in a few places I played.
No phones is the best idea ever
If one out three players won't play without their phones, then we've identified the people who are cheating or using the phones as a crutch. The heck with them all. They will be replaced by the honest players that they have driven away from the tables. You wouldn't play tennis against someone who took unfair advantage, like using a racket 2x larger than standard.
Not sure if a giant racket gives an advantage in tennis 🤣 but yea ban phones
Competitive TCGs prohibit accessing phones during matches. It's doable to do the same at tables. Easier, even, as each table has an authority figure in the dealer, which isn't so with TCG events.
First, I agree 100% with your assessment on this....I do have one question: is talking to your coach between hands at the rail almost the same? Love the channel!
Using your phone in this manner is considered using a cheating device and it is a felony under Nevada law.
The only people who could want no phones at the table are Recs who do not play
The only people who want phones are degens. Haha. Most I have seen is people just saying if you want to use your phone you have to leave the table. I don't think it's that unreasonable.
Win a bracelet mofo 🤘🏿
A ton of people play at The Orleans -- it's a locals' spot with big poker room .
In the State of South Dakota use of cell phone while in a hand at poker table is banned by the gaming commission actually, stemming from an incident of suspected collusion. It is very much enforced you actually have to stand up and step away to use phone.
Good rule must be nice to play there
Thanks for talking about my PokerNews article Doug!
Doug your shorts where getting good, and it gave me a piece of classic UA-cam back (like this video) pls do them
I thought you were also gonna talk about the Men Nguyen kerfuffle. I guess I have to wait for Joey to spend 55 hours reviewing the footage.
This is easy to fix. Interact with a device during a hand your hand is dead.
Take the phones away, get people talking to each other and improve the social aspect.
Do you want to socialize with poker players?
Said it before, and I'll say it again- why on earth are phones allowed to be brought out at the tables? There is zero reason to allow it, and so many reasons to ban it.
Wait until AR tech advances and you can see GTO through your glasses.
Through your eyes, more likely
I see through your fucking sunglasses you’re using wizard the whole time!
Doug hit him with the "let's see if you're around in 5 years, kid." 😂
actually skilled players should easily be able to commit to playing without a device on hand, the "having stuff to do" argument from dwan doesn't make much sense in light of him being an actual professional player who makes his entire living from the game, the "stuff to do" could surely wait until after the game?
The professionals also know they're supposed to be folding the majority of their hands, which means the majority of the time you're not actively involved in what's happening at the table. I'm fine with people playing on their phones, I don't even care if they look at charts, because maybe they won't notice patterns in the way I'm playing. Professionals want people on their phones so they have a disadvantage of information from being distracted.
I presume he's talking about cash, not tournament. Players looking up ranges in tournaments is going to be more likely.
@@Nerdsie This is true. Playing passively vs one player and aggro the next, those on the phone have no idea I'm adapting, and also how to adapt to other players themselves. Is a huge edge in the £200-£500 tournies I play.
Obviously the "stuff to do" is live sports betting, can't wait until afterwards for that!
@@verdesmarald Often it's online poker, and if you're playing an online tournament with 100k up top, you don't want to have to put your phone away and pull it out to realize you auto-folded aces
It amazes me that using software during a game is even debated, to be honest. Of course it shouldn't be used. As far as phone bans. A ban wouldn't stop me from playing. But also, I'd just be okay with if anyone is caught using software during game. Just making it auto DQ. I don't think a phone ban would stop many people from playing either. If people want to play poker they'll play poker.
I mean, is it bad to use steroids in mma only during a fight? No, it's banned at all times.
So, if this is cheating, then using range charts and whatnot out of a tournament to get better is also cheating.
Nobody had to figure the info out themselves. They're all using information someone else figured out. So it's not like each player had to do it themselves, but this guy is the only one using community information.
If they all use it, why ban it during play?
Imagine you could play blackjack and use your phone? As a counter, as a what to-do on 16 facing a 10 etc. The casino would never allow it.
They don't lose money from poker cheaters, they do from advantage players in blackjack.
Casinos literally sell basic strategy charts, and often encourage people to use them.
Most casinos allow people to do this because even using a perfect play chart they still have an edge
I actually tried it... and yes they don't care. I was trying to learn how to play and the dealer encouraged it. What happens when you win ? You give it back through tips to dealer... you eat at their restaurants... $$ you buy drinks and tip waitress... It feeds on its own ecosystem !! The HOUSE always.... I mean ALWAYS wins.
@@AlexanderJordan-sv7nm They also do it because regulars stop playing if the table is always just doing random things, because it can ruin their strategy.
I play regularly at a casino with a rule that you can't use your phone while in a hand. I've always thought it was a good rule, incase two friends are at the same table they can't cheat by texting what they have. When I play at other casinos and people are using their phone while in a hand it always feels icky, since I'm so use to it not being allowed.
Does anyone remember who phil said that too? "See if your around in 5 years kid" is he still around?
Yeah but he got in trouble with the Chinese and is some billionaire gangsters little poker pet now.😊
Doug is there a way to contact you if it's in a seeking guidance and advice and not in a stalkery Sorta way?
The "he's been using GTO solver the whole time" rant sounds so much more urgent at 1.25 speed
I used to work at the Lodge and one time i caught doug eating a whole steam tray of enchilada that was meant for the dealers.
I was there. I didn’t get an enchilada that day!
I was so hungry that day and they were all gone within an hour. Unbelievable Doug
I am so sorry for that incident, which absolutley happened. Next time I'll eat half the tray like a civilized gentleman
You should be allowed to have a phone, but not use it during a hand.
Matt savage coordinated a no phones, no hoodies, no headphone tournament a few years ago at the Commerce casino and they did get a lot of players. It was ok. You could use it on breaks
Have you seen that Postle has actually came out of hiding in the last couple weeks?
yeah, crazy that guy has the audacity to show his face in a casino
Degens gonna degen
All he did was make it look like he was cheating to troll the locals. Weird a year and a half and not a shred of actual evidence. Just influencers n blonde chick who lied about all the so called data for attention
@@kays5377show a shred of actual evidence he did anything wrong. Not the fake data either. Actual evidence
I ubered 4 guys from out of town to the lodge who came to meet you for the first time. You have done more for poker than you know. Keep up the great content. ❤
Simple solution, have no phone tables and/or tournaments so that those who don't want phones can feel motivated to play in that environment. Ban GTO wizard for those tourneys that allow phones.
I think phones should be in pockets while at the table. if you need to get it you have to step away from table. if you have to leave for a phone trip you have to be in a designated area in the room to use phone and your next hand you return will be automatically mucked discouraging players from leaving the table to use phone. if phone is out at table you get 1 warning. 2nd time you have to be penalized one orbit. 3rd time dqed. if in a series 4 time you cant register in a tourney for rest of series.
just no phone use while at the table, if you get a text or call must decide if the call is worth getting up and away from the table to answer
Exactly and do your online banking or booking flights rooms whatever before you play .
I agree you should not have phones/charts/any help during a hand. But you were adamant to have your charts playing heads up with Dnegs...
No phones during the hand seems standard to me. I also agree with not looking at solvers or anything in between hands, if it’s an MTT do it on dinner break or in the bathroom if you want, I don’t care what you do away from the table. I listen to music when I play basically always. When I play live, I try to be social so I keep one earbud out and make sure it’s low enough to hear people and talk to them.
I never have to really touch my phone for more than a few seconds. I’ll put a playlist on shuffle and let it go. Once in a while I’ll hit next on the lock screen x times to find a new song, so a couple taps and that’s it. Maybe once every hour or two (varies) when I’m not in a hand I’ll switch playlists or do something of that sort. I’ve never had any issues doing that at home games, cash or MTT at a casino, and I’ve been playing poker forever. I used to have an iPod touch or whatever those were called just for poker.
I haven’t played on a livestream, but I’ve played with cameras around a couple times and with microphones attached to your shirt or w/e (been a long time lol) twice. One time they let me continue to listen to music which in hindsight was crazy, it was an HPT FT (sick brag) and filmed for local TV. When I got a copy of it, there were a couple hands during 3 handed and HU (I lost) where you could p clearly hear music.
I listened to hip hop and I def heard a few curse words, and could make out what song was playing and the lyrics a few times. Mostly you couldn’t hear it, or it was very faint, but during a couple big pots or all ins when the announcers were quiet it was VERYYYY clear 😂. I doubt more than a couple hundred ppl saw that tho. It was a super long time ago and HPT here was replaced by MSPT I think. The other times they just asked me to take my earbud out, and if it’s deep in a tournament I have 0 issues with that.
Just my thoughts. If I had to go get a device that wasn’t able to send messages but could store music (do those even exist anymore?) specifically for non home game live poker like the iPod touch I had way back, fine. But as long as you don’t slow down action, you can still hear people and it doesn’t make you completely anti social especially at home games, you aren’t actively using a phone during the hand or literally watching a movie on an iPad (yes I’ve seen this multiple times, p sure Deeb did it once) I don’t care.
✌️
2:45 you were smiling way too hard getting that “assistance” Doug… 😂😂
The Phil Galfond joke has me rolling. Love your sense of humor Doug 😂
A 'No Phone Tournament' I think would be interesting, but the idea of No Phones at the table will never stick
They did it for many years at the Casinos in the Northeast. I remember Mohegan finally allowed it during the NAPT because D'Negs and couple of other pros wanted it lifted. After that they allowed it. During that time though solvers weren't even a thing.
I wish Doug's last name was Polker so his channel name would be Doug Polker Poker. Its just so fun to say especially if you have a Philly accent.
I've been playing poker in casinos since '04. It has gone from a non-issue to no phones to "everyone needs their phone." No phones when you're in a hand.
Phone is not problem. Players using phone while they are in hand is the problem. Nobody should allowed to use phone untill they fold.
Professional poker has to be considered in the same light as other professional sport,
Performance enhancing drugs are banned across the board.
Using performance enhancing software,during a poker tourney is exactly the same as using a drug.
Phones must be banned from all tourney tables.
If players don't like it,too bad,..rules are rules and they will learn to live with it.
Doug back with the heat 🔥
No phone is the best idea i heard in a while:)
11:30 love the Berkey impression!
📵 no phones enhances the poker experience. At least provide tables with that option
It’s kind of funny. When I was a tournament director in an amateur league, I had a venue where the older crowd kept complaining about phones at the table. Mainly because players took too long to act. It got so bad I literally banned phones unless they were playing music.
YES, phones SHOULD BE banned. But the rule I would word it would be “no phones allowed while sitting at a live table. In the event that a player is caught FOR ANY reason having a phone or other electronic device, a FULL BlIND penalty will be applied for first offense. A subsequent offense will result in a full disqualification.”
Another quality video. Thanks mate 👊 keep it fun
No phones at the table.
I don't know ANYTHING about any of these programs or apps or A.i., so my knowledge of their purpose or advantages they provide is irrelevant, but to me...i feel like poker (just like any other game or sport) requires ability and skills to become one of the best. If you need to use ANYTHING extra that EVERYONE involved in the game is not also using then you shouldn't be at the table. If people want or need to use a program then every player in the game should be using the exact same program. In any other sport every player involved is issued matching equipment and one set of rules to abide by. Everyone starts on an equal playing field, the only thing that gives you an upper edge is your personal abilities that you had to train yourself to have.... That's why steroids and P.E.Ds are not allowed. My personal opinion on apps and programs and ai and all that other shit is that it's equal to a player using steroids against a player who's not.
Good video Doug glad to see you back!
The card house I play at does not allow any solvers or charts at the table in addition to can not use your phone while in a hand and can not take a phone call unless you step away from the table
No phones, no watches, no exceptions.
Doug, I got into poker as part of the 'Moneymaker' effect in '03' and have been consuming poker content ever since. I watched a couple of your videos in the early days of this channel but stopped watching because you were shouting at me in every one of them. I'm glad to see that you have changed that and are now talking to me in a NORMAL voice. I'll watch a few more of your vids and if the trend continues I may even subscribe this time.
Thank you for the change.
Doug I love your content. I like it most when you start rambling off topic
You’re a legend at these videos🥵
"I feel strongly, but I do not know what the answer is." LOL
easy solution, no use of phone at the table and no phones on the table
Is it that big of a benefit to use these apps?
No phones, no head phones, no hoodies, no sunglasses, no hats
I think phone's should be banned players should have to "present" while playing but that's just my personal opinion, you don't need to use a phone to vlog you can use a camera which has less capabilities
10:00 Where are you going to put people's phones? How are you going to deal with collecting, holding, and then returning 100+ people's phones in a large tournament? Do people have to wait around? Are you going to pay out when somebody's phone is inevitably lost? How does insurance feel about this?
Can people plan dinner etc.? It makes sense in your card room but for an out of towner, and even moreso an out of country-er who might rely on a translation app to get around, no phone is a complete non option.
collecting phones has so many logistical challenges that outweigh how it is the purely best option from a pure playing poker perspective.
The dealer collects the phone at the table. Whats so hard about that.
People can just turn phone off and keep in pocket
Leave it in your hotel room.
Phone is confiscated and destroyed at security.
In my opinion though, the whole point of poker is playing human vs. human , if one has better memory, smarter, better learner, that is his/her advantage.
This is a game, where a human "fights" an other human. Not a job where you can use whatever tool you have your hands on.
It's like you could use an encyclopaedia in a Who wants to be a millionaire show.
Just ban all electronic devices at the table
There was a time when I started playing that phones weren't allowed at the table. The first place I was allowed to used a phone at the table was in Vegas and it slowly made its way to my local casinos.