I feel like Dany and Jon are two halves of Paul. With Jon having the background parallel to Paul with the honorable father and set of ethical standards, and Dany has the 'Chosen One wandering the desert, I'm a superior human and will guide the lesser people to better things/her personal Jihad' - part of the story.
I’ve loved ASOIAF and Dune for a while, but you guys drew a lot of parallels between them that I never really meditated on before. This conversation honestly helped me better understand why I like both things. Please keep up the great work
Read Martin's science fiction earlier work. You'll see plenty especially in the House of the Worm with God Emperor. But it is also inspired by Time Machine, seemingly.
wtf is Bionicles lol Edit: after searching Bionicles and unlocking a whole era of memories from my childhood loving LEGO and agree would love a series on it
I always found it funny how everyone in the throniverse was like "oh good heavens, the Freys are such ghastly nouveau riche parvenus: they've only been landed aristocrats for six hundred years. Lord Walder deigns to marry his daughter off to Lord Tully, but we all know his great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather was a common fisherman. They'll never be fancy" and ASX was just like "the Lannisters are new money"
I'm not sure the fremen wildling parallel works that well, its works insofar that the great houses consider them a disorganized group of savages on the fringe of civilization that pose no real threat. The only difference is that in Asoiaf the great houses are kind of correct. Stannis whose army had suffered desertions, disease, and the battle of the blackwater and the nights watch that had grown so understrength it was considered a joke were able to beat Mance rayder's wildling army. Where as the sardaukar are repeatedly beaten by the fremen in open combat.
@@juwebles4352 Instead of the truth being that they are a bunch of badasses, the great houses think the purpose of the Wall is to keep out the wildlings. Both are fundamentally misunderstood by "civilization" until the hero goes amongst them and learns their ways. Both also involve the hero in an early encounter with them meeting a woman trying to kill them but they fall in love.
juwebles4352 Ok and? Did you know there is not one single exact similarity between the two series? Imagine that. Wow. It's almost like plagiarism and taking inspiration are not the same thing. Whoa crazy! Do the Starks actually live on a water planet?! The Harks aren't eventually lead by a crazy blonde woman with 2 sons and a daughter made from incest? Leto doesn't get his head chopped off by a child king? Paul doesn't own a super wolf he warg into??! Wow you're right! The novels clearly have zero correlations!
I was here during the live chat and something Alt Shift didn’t talk about was the role of Jamis and Qhorin Halfhand and how it’s basically the same for the main character that slays them? The motif is used often in fantasy now but I can now clearly see Jon killing Qhorin Halfhand as Paul killing jamis, someone he thought was going to “lead” him through his next few steps in his life. Jon thought the same of the Halfhand on the ranging he went with him. Legendary ranger. Hope this comment gets a pin :)
I can’t believe Arya killed Leto II when she ate him out of the Kindly Man’s eye in AFFC! This is worse than when he said Jaime Lannister would just punch Hermione Granger to death.
I always enjoy Aziz's take on History of Westeros, and it was fun to see him here discussion Dune as well :) It is quite... funny (?) how both stories have gotten too big and complicated for the authors. Frank basically said, "oh no the characters are getting away" as he and his wife looked on. I really hope George manages to pull out at least one more book, even if Dream will never actually become reality.
When that 90 mins - 2hr Jon Snow vid drops you can bet your ass I'm booking a day off, putting everything on do not disturb and sitting down with popcorn and snacks to fully enjoy it
@RealestGaround 😂 if we can wait 13 years plus for the big man himself to drop this novel, then I've got all the patience in the world for this video, and I'll believe in its imminent arrival with just as much delusion 👌 But you're right, we shouldn't put it past Schwifty here to pull a 13 year wait just for the f*ckin bants
*I see a lot of similarities between Dune and A Song of Ice and Fire. Just as I see similarities between The Lord of the Rings and ASOIAF. But it's not a problem because GRRM knows the difference between copying and being inspired, and he was obviously inspired by these worlds/stories to create his own giant world. He himself (George Martin) admitted that there would be no ASOIAF if it weren't for Tolkien.*
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy right, being completely generous I would want to believe that but there are just too many heavy handed similarities. It’s quite odd, I wish someone would ask him about Dune during an interview. I don’t want to believe he felt it could go undetected and nobody would call it out since at the time, GoT (the show) was incredibly mainstream and Dune, while always having a fandom, was a bit antiquated for some. Now with the stellar movie it found a new generation of fans and many more people have noticed the many connections to works like ASOIAF, Star Wars, ect.
I’ve been travelling a lot for work recently and this video is in my downloads file. I’ve fallen asleep to it 4x now. There’s something about that just drags me to sleep.
Oh snap, I'm definitely going to try to watch this soon. I too can talk for about 3 hours or so in discussing the parallels between Dune & Game of Thrones, both thematically and direct homages. I have also in the past stated that despite the other blaring influences evident in ASOIAF (Lovecraft, Howard, Smith, Moorcock, Marvel (comics), world mythology, and Medieval history, etc.), that in some way the Dune saga seems to me to be the largest influence in some unquantifiable way. Almost as if ASOIAF is the epic fantasy answer to Dune. So anyway, yes, very much looking forward to this video. Thanks for making it!
I've read a great quote about any project in regards of Martin writing: "the first 99% of project are as not as hard as last 99% of the project" :D So it is kind of hard to predict how close the finish line really is in the middle. Personally I'm rooting for 5-6 more years to settle all the complicated knots of characters without loosing the main theme (where 1 year would be requires for all the redacting and printing preparations).
I think a better comparison to the Fremen in GOT is the Wildlings, I don't think Vas Dathrak can be considered as extreme of an environment. Whereas the Wildlings are surviving in severe cold, while contending with the White Walkers, and befriending giants and mammoths.
But they are comparing the Fremen to both, because both the Wildings and Dothraki share narrative similarities to Fremen. And While north of the wall is harsher than where the Dothraki live, where they live is still a brutal, lethal wasteland that most people avoid at all cost.
Dragons being a catalyst for magic and the worms being the catalyst for spice might be the most telling trajectory for how the dragons will end up. Thanx for being a catalyst for this discussion, alt shift x!
also DARK OVER series by Marion Zimmer Bradley should be a heavy influnce on GRRM. it even got a giant wall of ice, houses, fancy swords, and characters called "ashara" for example
> Fremen are reduces to Museum Fremen But I guess they must be rather happy? I mean, they don't have to die of dehydration anymore... Some of them might even die drowning every once in a while.
4:36 I don‘t think Ned is meant to be a model for someone who uses power well. One of his first scenes is beheading a frightened man without a real trial juristically or any empathy emotionally. I would interpret Ned as a criticism of hierarchy (especially of course feudal hierarchy) insofar that even when following every detail of medieval honorary code, and not abusing power, one is not able to act morally within this system.
I really like this point, but I do think they establish guilt when explaining that the guy ran. They took away doubt which was similar to a trial. On the other hand the guy was talking about white walkers IIRC, so he cut off an important warning people needed to hear. If that was the case it could mean what you described but not just impeding morals but existence entirely.
It’s explicably explained that you cannot abandon your position in the Nights watch. It’s literally like a prison / and a sort of military. And doing so is punishable by death. Ned was teaching bran Duty, integrity
@@LeSeulGarcon i‘m talking about a modern understanding of morality. I think we both agree that a soldier, or prison escapee should not be immediately killed, especially if they didn‘t hurt anyone during their escape, and are clearly heavily disturbed. Ned didn‘t properly hear the guy out, as then they might have found the site where his squad was attacking (this would be a necessary component, even in a military trial). Seeing this execution as a kind of moral lesson from an outside perspective, is just wrong. Neds uncompromising following of the codes of his society eventually leads to his death, where he gets executed in an unfair way as another commenter mentioned.
3:12:00 as far as Frank being more concerned with humanity going extinct, I wonder how much of that comes from living during the Cold War with nuclear extinction in the back of everyone’s mind
Have you read the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn books? There are some pretty heavy comparisons to Song of Ice and Fire in that one too, especially in regards to the North and the children of the forest.
"I Claudius" is more of an inspiration for ASoIaF. Reading it I had Leo-Di-Caprio face every 5 minutes as I thought "That's the same in ASOS!", "He's literally Littlefinger" or "Ooh, that's probably gonna happen in Winds"
Personally, I think Battletech is more of an inspiration. Many factions feel like they were removed from the sci-fi setting and tweaked into Game of Thrones. Plus, Geroge R. R. Martin did say he was inspired by science fiction and was meant by the White Walkers. Though nothing was said, he could not be inspired by multiple sources. As for comparison: House Stark = House Davion, both in how they want to be portrayed as honorable but are actually willing to do in history. They mostly kept to themselves for a large portion of history. Still, they always made the most significant political moves when active in the galactic community, causing great harm to the family and nearly causing the family to go extinct several times. Also, get away with many things by being the good guy faction. North = Federated Suns ruled by House Davion, the largest territory, one of the most potent military but vastly underdeveloped. The only difference is the wide variety of worlds and having the largest population. Also, they are the primary center of an old religion that few believe in outside the Federated Suns (Christianity). Also, the North is similar to the Turrian Concordont, but I felt Federated Suns are a better example. House Lannister = House Kuriata with the Lyran Common Wealth. They are the most ruthless House and demand utmost loyalty, use tricky to usurp thrones of others on the flimsy excuse and trick their way into power, and outsmart the previous ruling family, which were family. Westerland = Draconis Combine ruled by House Kurita, in they state that uses fear to keep their subjects in line where might make right with many lords using the sword to enact control House Tyrell = House Stinner in that they are bumbling fools until they are not; then, they are perfect rulers or leaders. Also, they are incredibly wealthy due to being a merchant and never forgetting it, and they mostly flaunt wealth to keep in control. However, House Steiner does it by choice, for they could be as tyrannical as House Kuriata. Reach = Lyran Commonwealth rich territory that supplies many goods to all other factions and earns great wealth. House Mudd and Tully = House Marrik are trying to keep warring factions that answer to him from killing each other and get usurped by outside forces making a mess of their House that fight to retake their head status. Riverlands = Free World League as they spend more time fighting each other, and the heads desperately try to keep it together. House Greyjoy = House Leoa small-time commanders of a fleet that usurp power from the previous ruling House to reform the government into what it is today. Think they are master-class chess players and warriors, but their plans depend on backstabbing and no one retaliating. Also, a good number of their wars started due to finding a girl attractive and tried to raid the nation to claim the girl as a sex slave, only to kill them in the end. Mad King = Max Leoa he was the ruler of a state in the succession war and was utterly mad to the point that caused a lot of death and destruction and led House Davion to go after them in revenge. Also, he is easily manipulated by Comstar to be his own doom. Ironborn = Copellan Confederation is the group that backstabs everyone; everyone knows they backstab others and can pull surprise attacks but get shit on when the other factions take them seriously and constantly lose lives and territory. Also, they used to be a mighty state and one of the largest, now a former shadow of themselves that barely survives. Depend on the Star League for protection as it was like picking at other powers, thought it was their time to rise when it went to fight in the Succession Wars, but soon regretted their decision when they started losing lives regularly. One of the most unstable states with infight for the seat of power but has the most brainwashed citizens that are too loyal to the state, and labor depends on slaves that are not considered slaves but survivors. House Targaryen = House Cameron is the head of state and became First Lord of the Star League. The family started off great by convincing and conquering all the great powers but quickly declined after their success with a few great reformers that were unlikely, had a priest turn ruler, and the last First Lord died to stupidity and trust in a friend he should not have trusted. Rahegar Targaryen = Richard Cameron was the hope of House Targaryen and turned out more as a liability that eventually led to the end of House Cameron to only a few survivors (if any), with many speculating his sister survived. Crownlands = Terran Hegemony Once the center of power of Star League, it was one of the riches of territory and offered great wealth in terms of technology and resources, but is a former shadow of itself swallowed up slowly by others with only the capital now essential and fought over by other factions for the right of rulership. Kingsgaud = Black Watch, the elite army that defends the king and utterly fails to do so. They are considered the top of the crop, extremely elite, legends in their own right, and impossible to put down without losing a lot of people. Was briefly resurrected Stormland = the Rimworld Republic, a powerful state outside the everyday politics of the Star League that became a significant player within a few categories. The Amaris Family usurped control from House Cammeran and Terran Hegemony but quickly lost its power within two decades. It was reduced to a puppet state to be absorbed by the Lyran Commonwealth. Dorne = Conopus is a state with connections that are occasionally good with the Inner Spear, has a history of female rules as opposed to the mostly male rulers of others, very open sexually, Have a surprisingly powerful military but are also mostly blustered and depend more on home-field advantage and enemies not engaging in pure scorch-earth policies to win. Also, fought against unification with the Star League and broke away when they could. Free States = Outerworld Alliance, a collection of city-states outside the Inner Spear that is allied only on paper and Maesters = Comstar, the organization everyone is forced to use, for they have no choice but to secretly try to keep the factions fighting each other, horde information, and hide information they consider dangerous. White Walkers = Clanners, originally humans; they are genetically enhanced humans with advanced technology that seems alien yet familiar and incredibly advanced that invaded the Inner Sphere from somewhere beyond known human territory and come to reclaim what they think is theirs. At the same time, the factions were engaged in each other's threats until they were beaten in a single battle, and the different factions then returned to pummel each other. Use the name the Great Houses from Battletech to describe the rulers. The War of Five Kings = The Succession Wars, the Great Houses fighting over the First Lord's Chair of the Star League. It will likely end the same way in A Song of Fire and Ice: a return to an age of constant wars with no true victor in sight. Baleish = Amaris, a man who tried to usurp the throne of the Star League that kickstarted the Succession Wars and sort of succeeded in his plans, but his actions caused the failure that ultimately led to his death at the hands of the person that he tried to come to his side, Alexander Krensky, a man he considers a more after taught after things do not go his way. At the same time, he also severely harms the man personally and makes him have to retake his home before going after him. Also, the Amris family started as minor nobility and usurped power outside their home territory, a master manipulator. They personally did it due to perceived slights he wanted vengeance on and greed. There are far more, but it was getting too long. These are just the surface examples.
Everyone always says Ned was bad at politicking, but Secrets of the Citadel (if you're reading this, come back, we miss your rich Derbyshire accent) made a good point about how sending Beric to capture the Mountain would have snookered Tywin if Cersei's dumbass scheme didn't pan out the way it was meant to out of sheer fluke
2:24:10 "...I have been thinking of an April Fool's joke explaining BIONICLE's lore." Tell it in chronological order for extra confusion. The Toa Mata won't show up until two-thirds way through the video.
Thufir and Leeuwin have another parallel! They both served the enemy because they thought their rightful young rulers were dead, and they also both saw them alive one last time, *as they were dying*, and seemed to find peace.
I guess, you can find a lot of books and authors who "inspired" GRRM, if we go down that lane. As far as I know though, he dubbed The Accursed Kings "the original game of thrones", citing Druon's novels as an inspiration for his own series.
@JohnV170 "no one gives shit that you feel so ignored by everyone that you feel the need to correct YT comments that do not require capitalization or commas"
> Thufir is much more villainous dude than Luwin Well, I wouldn't be so sure... Thufir was at least on Atreides side for sure. Luwin's true allegiances are unknown, but he didn't have to be poisoned to work for Stark enemies.
Sorry for the off topic comment, but I'd love to see this channel also covering the Foundation series on Apple TV+. I know it's not as popular as GoT or Dune, but it has been a great show so far. Cheers.
The very first book of game of thrones was just as much as dune be it the medieval version, because, if not for the obvious Robot Jihad and the Robert Rebellion similarities the stark and Atreides moving from their ancestral home in the behest of their king was infact a sign calamity will happen for mostly the family head, but still they're creative difference in their storytelling telling is still unique in their respective worlds
Robert's Rebellion is closer to the previous "war of assassins" that involved multiple houses. The Jihad is closer to Aegon's Conquest in that it occurred long before any of the main characters were born and is what established the feudal system they find themselves in.
I think your view of having to do bad things for power is a great one. Ned literally demonstrates this well. He thinks that Joffrey is illegitimate so he tries to plot a way to block the Queen in installing him as king when Robert is about to die. Two individuals present a morally questionable method of gaining that power, Renly says that Ned must assault at night so that teh Queen will be vulnerable, whereas Littlefinger suggests they get hands on Joffrey and install him as puppet and hold the threat of revealing his bastardy to set up another ruler. Ned rejects both offers. Even when he is caught and captured he does not compromise his morality. But he does compromise his morality though, when he thinks it will save Sansa and Arya: he admits to treason to be sent to the Wall to guarantee the safety of his children. I think at this point he dies because he compromised his morals. Except that's not a very GRRM story. He actually already compromised his morals: he knew that Joffrey was illegitimate, when he was at Robert's death bed. Instead of revealing this fact to Robert he aduterates Robert's will: he replaces Robert's dictation "Until my son Joffrey comes of age" to "Until the true heir comes of age". He did not tell Robert the truth but adulterated the will with his cowardice. In a sense the failure of his coup is ironically justice: he is there with a fake document to usurp the one whom Robert designated as heir. Even though they aren't his children, the will is a forgery, since Ned changed the words. Ned's literal downfall begins with his attempt to usurp the one Robert designated as heir. In a way his story closes with him being correctly executed for treason, even though he thinks the heir is illegitimate.
Yes! Aziz! He's not only one of the most knowledgable ASOIAF podcasters, but his predictions for the books and show are not based in magical thinking and delusions of grandeur like... well, Preston Jacobs.
I disagree with a lot of Preston Jacobs’ takes, but what magician thinking and delusions of grandeur are you referring to? He doesn’t like the magic, and he’s actually well read on George and has pointed out many similarities and parallels to previous works that I’ve found quite revealing. He takes odd turns often but the legwork is pretty much always done well. I’ll take him over any other ASOIAF UA-camr. I also like that there are different corners in the fandom that like and prefer different things. I don’t care for David Lightbringer on a personal level and can’t stand to head his “this is X type figure” etc but he’s got an audience
@@Galero15my favourite example is the Littlefinger plot video, where Preston has good takes, good information, setting the scene... And then his conclusion is that Littlefinger is trying to appease the Old Gods because Sansa has red hair or something
@@Galero15hmm, people seem to have a lot of speculative-but-definite (because it's obvious!) diagnoses for UA-camrs and podcasters... but the comments are interesting to read at least. PS *gasp* I love David Lightbringer! I must just be "one of X type of figures..." 😅 💚
Joe Magician is the GOAT for theories. Crowfood's daughter is also great, as well as In Deep Geek. Hills Alive doesn't do theories as much as analysis but she has some very original takes as well LML and Preston Jacobs are definitely not high on my list either lol
I disagree that Frank Herbert is cynically telling the reader to coldly trust in logic and reason above everything. In "Messiah" Paul Atreides says he is worse than Hitler; if that isn't Frank telling us that Paul/kwisatz haderach/omniscience is bad then I don't know.
Because the golden path is a lie. It’s a set of predictions based on our extremely limited understanding of the universe. Can it really account for every note of dust, every bacterium, every neuron in a man’s brain? Of course it can’t. It’s why it takes Leto II 4 thousand years to actually do anything of note. We must have faith, faith in the goodness of others to progress as a species. Forgiveness for our enemies and compassion for those who harm us. If a better world cannot be achieved that way then I want no part in this world. But this is why I have faith. By the end of the dune books people are just back to square one, nothing has really changed the only thing Leto II did was make sure nobody else could use prescience to do what he did.
George obviously doesn't care to finish the books. I kind of don't blame him, he's made his money, and he spent a lot of time with GOT, he's doing other projects too. With that said, I think he should hand it off to a team, get people like you help, he gives high level notes they do the grunt work and touch up. At least finish it in some capacity it doesn't have to be perfect. Do it now while he's still alive. You don't see many old overweight people. Just saying time is running out!
Dune also inspired as did the Time Machine Martin's earlier stories, which were science fiction. Specifically In the House of the Worm. direct God Emperor of Dune parallels but others.
@@calebhorton4701 I like that type of writing though, the more they become inhuman but powerful the more unrelatable they become I think its boring how some Sci/Fantasies have these ultra powerful gods that are kinda human but still very human and likable, it doesn't make too much sense to me
Literary analysis of ASOIAF and not just people arguing over in-universe everything? This is madness! But seriously, this is one of the few channels that actually does this. Literary analysis of ASOIAF is pretty uncommon in general. You certainly don't find much of it on the fan boards. It's all "What if Jaime had done x or y or what if the Kingsguard had all been at the Battle of the Trident or who would win between a and b and what was x person's motivation and what if, what if, what if..." Lol
GRR Martin said multiple times that most of ASOIF was mainly inspired by a french series of novels called "Les Rois Maudits" (the cursed kings) which in turn is a romanced version of a dynasty of french kings. Jon Snow was inspired by a famous historical imposter who claimed to be then deceased royal heir Jean le Posthume (John the posthumous) who died a day after his birth but was rumored to have been kidnapped or hidden to avoid assassination. Part of the french novel plot is that this character is actually telling the truth. Robert Baratheon was inspired by another French king also featured in the same series of novels: king Philip IV who died after falling from his horse during a wild boar hunt. Several other characters are inspired by this series of novels. The Lannisters are inspired by the Plantagenet family and Cersei is inspired by Alienor of Aquitaine. Ned Stark is inspired by another historical figure named Guillaume de Nogaret (William of Nogaret). The Targaeryans seem to borrow more from the greek myths (survivors of the fall of Atlantis, with Valyrian steel being a variation on the theme of "orichalk", a magic alloy the atlanteans were supposed to have mastered), just as the Atréides family.
1:03:37 I would read the hell out of a Dream of Spring if it was just about some portly man in Bravos lamenting to his pet turtle about the War of the Five Kings and the Battle of the Dawn.
GOT (show) was definitely GRRM's ending: [SPOILERS] It ends the same as Dune Messiah (John goes North, and Paul...walks into the desert.) Also, both stories have fraternal twins. Cersei and Jamie are incestuous, and L2 & G marry. And regarding Petyr & Piter: Both want the same woman: Catelyn/Jessica.
I haven't read the books yet but watching the movie I thought it was obvious Ned Stark to a certain degree was inspired by Duke Leto and now that I think about it Jon is a little inspired by Paul Atreidis? like how Leto is loved for being an honorable leader and as soon as he moves away from his home things turn dark for them? and a bunch of other things that are similar, Spice and the Shade of the Evening? Maesters and Mentat Baron is like a more villainous Tywin, I think Aerys Targaryen is influenced by him, or maybe Maegor? and that wormlike transformation could kind of be similar to Bloodraven and how he's entangled with a tree and can see visions and the future and he's inhuman but very powerful(the current bloodraven, not when he was human) but what I love about both is how anti-war and obviously political both are, warning us about Powerful and Charismatic leaders that think its their birthright to herd the sheep and how they manipulate regular people, and how the average person gets crushed by war and its just seen as regular business by the Elite, I'd go as far as saying GRRM actually continued Herbert's political points with how he called his first book 'Game of Thrones' which shows how some people in power deliberately not only won't try to stop crisis or war but they're Accelerationists who use that Chaos as opportunity without caring about what happens to the average joe, and I'm not talking about crazy conspiracies and Illuminati or some stupid shit, in case of Dune its clear its partly about Strong Man Theory and Fascism, where people give all their power to one man who they stupidly consider to be Extraordinary, like what happened in Nazi Germany, but that's just a part of his writing, there's a lot more to it.
I read both books in a short time frame and was struck by the Atreides-Stark similarities. Mainly Duke Leto - Ned, Jessica - Catelyn and Paul - Jon/Robb/Bran. The first half of Dune is very very similar in style to ASOIAF.
@@aldeayeah now that I think about it Paul is more like Bran than Jon, probably? with the visions and everything, but its probably not a one to one similarity, unless Bran becomes that one magical leader everyone starts following instead of Jon? but it looks like Jon will be that guy
@@Ar1AnX1x SPOILERS (if you aren't familiar with the books) Before his attempt at committing spice-icide (yes, I'm very proud of the joke lol), he is more akin to Jon. Jon also has some magical aptitude, with his dreams and Ghost, and we also see him growing up, having to deal with the death of his father and the harsher reality of life as as a commoner (who still has some special privileges). But there are definitely also similarities to Bran - before the spice-trance Paul is still very much a student, like Bran. After the spice awakening he is more akin to what Bran will become. Wanted to compare it to Bloodraven at first, but he's more like poor Leto II after his worm power-up. Or maybe future Bran will be like Leto II, and Bloodraven is more like post-spice bath Paul.
@@mejuliie yeah and that's why I like GRRM's writing, its inspired by a lot of different things but its not a one to one copy pasted, the inspirations are mostly organically grown all over his writing and its complicated and I haven't read Dune so I didn't wanna pretend like I know if Bran is more like Paul or Jon
@Ar1AnX1x honestly I see Jon, Brandon, and Dany as three aspects of Paul. I'm not sure which is more "him" than the other two because they all contain a bit. I'm guessing the dragon having 3 heads means that they each share a part of that archetype: Bran has visions and access to time and space, Jon is the noble warrior who embodies a type of masculine leadership, and Dany is the charismatic leader with access to powerful weapons in her dragons
Pretty sure Quaith is Elissa Farman. Quaith is obsessed with Danny traveling to westeros via asshai (the way she got there but reversed/ backwards to go forwards, east to go west = circle the globe) She knows Danny has the eggs she stole.
I notice that a lot of medieval-fantasy, at least those which maintain any meaningful analog to real history, often underplay the Islamic factor, probably because of how much it smacks of orientalism. However, I do consider "falling stars" and "mysterious black" stone as being indictive of the fact that George is likely more knowledgeable about this religious element factoring into his own story. I suppose I thought of it because of how Dune is so obviously influenced by the Middle East as well. It definitely seems relevant.
Only if George RR Martin's last book in the series ends with the new King Bran the Broken fusing together with the flesh of a dragon and he rules Westeros for 3,500 years using his powers to predict the future as well as looking deep into the past.
I don't think you talked about Rodrik Cassel and Gurney Halleck -- not that they're similar characters, but there is a parallel in that in both stories one of the mentors for the protagonist(s) is the weapons trainer. Also some similarity between Syrio Forel and Duncan Idaho.
I would watch an Alt Shift X Bionicle lore video of any length
PLEASE
You watch the 9 hour Bionicle Lore vid from DuckBricks? 😂
Good ipf
@@shehansoysa571 at the same time i definitely need to watch it, but i will also know i am gonna cry
When Jamis used his crysknife to castrate Theon Greyjoy, I knew that the whole thing was connected.
😂
That was Cersei not Jamie.
@JohnV170 go back to the short bus and don't return until you learn to read. No one said JAMIE and you are wrong REGARDLESS
@@JohnV170he is talking about dune jami💀 its a joke
Cheating on Glimbus
Wdym… glimbus collabs with alt schwift x, both of whom hate alt shift x
contrary to popular belief, i have NEVER worked with alt shift x. i'm a man of principles.
Cheating on Quinn then
@@Glidusyet you’re here trolling his comments🤔stay classy glimbus
Yup
I feel like Dany and Jon are two halves of Paul. With Jon having the background parallel to Paul with the honorable father and set of ethical standards, and Dany has the 'Chosen One wandering the desert, I'm a superior human and will guide the lesser people to better things/her personal Jihad' - part of the story.
With a little Bran thrown in cuz of the whole seeing the future thing.
@@ser_ryon_vine6392 If you think about it Targaryens have premonition-like dreams
@@ser_ryon_vine6392Nah, Bran is Leto II
Do you even know the meaning of the word jihad ☠️
@@panzequest-1226 Yes I do, both minor and major Jihad. I'm thinking you don't.
I’ve loved ASOIAF and Dune for a while, but you guys drew a lot of parallels between them that I never really meditated on before. This conversation honestly helped me better understand why I like both things. Please keep up the great work
Read Martin's science fiction earlier work. You'll see plenty especially in the House of the Worm with God Emperor. But it is also inspired by Time Machine, seemingly.
I love how through you I get such a niche content that feels like it's just MADE for me. Thanks so much :)
Forget as an April fools, I'd love a lore series on Bionicles. I used to read the comics and there's alot of story there
FACTS
wtf is Bionicles lol
Edit: after searching Bionicles and unlocking a whole era of memories from my childhood loving LEGO and agree would love a series on it
@@Dogmitry-Puplushkaund dann noch mal uuuu
Short answer : yes
Long answer : this video
Well worth the watch regardless!
"You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it." - The Night King
I always found it funny how everyone in the throniverse was like "oh good heavens, the Freys are such ghastly nouveau riche parvenus: they've only been landed aristocrats for six hundred years. Lord Walder deigns to marry his daughter off to Lord Tully, but we all know his great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather was a common fisherman. They'll never be fancy" and ASX was just like "the Lannisters are new money"
The Wildlings =The Fremen? As well as the attempt on Bran’s life = The hunter-seeker attempt to kill Paul.
nice
I'm not sure the fremen wildling parallel works that well, its works insofar that the great houses consider them a disorganized group of savages on the fringe of civilization that pose no real threat. The only difference is that in Asoiaf the great houses are kind of correct. Stannis whose army had suffered desertions, disease, and the battle of the blackwater and the nights watch that had grown so understrength it was considered a joke were able to beat Mance rayder's wildling army. Where as the sardaukar are repeatedly beaten by the fremen in open combat.
@@juwebles4352 Instead of the truth being that they are a bunch of badasses, the great houses think the purpose of the Wall is to keep out the wildlings. Both are fundamentally misunderstood by "civilization" until the hero goes amongst them and learns their ways. Both also involve the hero in an early encounter with them meeting a woman trying to kill them but they fall in love.
juwebles4352 Ok and? Did you know there is not one single exact similarity between the two series? Imagine that. Wow. It's almost like plagiarism and taking inspiration are not the same thing. Whoa crazy! Do the Starks actually live on a water planet?! The Harks aren't eventually lead by a crazy blonde woman with 2 sons and a daughter made from incest? Leto doesn't get his head chopped off by a child king? Paul doesn't own a super wolf he warg into??! Wow you're right! The novels clearly have zero correlations!
@Mordalon i would not bother bro some people are extremely slow
I was here during the live chat and something Alt Shift didn’t talk about was the role of Jamis and Qhorin Halfhand and how it’s basically the same for the main character that slays them? The motif is used often in fantasy now but I can now clearly see Jon killing Qhorin Halfhand as Paul killing jamis, someone he thought was going to “lead” him through his next few steps in his life. Jon thought the same of the Halfhand on the ranging he went with him. Legendary ranger.
Hope this comment gets a pin :)
I can’t believe Arya killed Leto II when she ate him out of the Kindly Man’s eye in AFFC!
This is worse than when he said Jaime Lannister would just punch Hermione Granger to death.
See In the House of the Worm by Martin.
@woksippingwigga for five years olds
I always enjoy Aziz's take on History of Westeros, and it was fun to see him here discussion Dune as well :) It is quite... funny (?) how both stories have gotten too big and complicated for the authors. Frank basically said, "oh no the characters are getting away" as he and his wife looked on. I really hope George manages to pull out at least one more book, even if Dream will never actually become reality.
The Whens of Winter.
When that 90 mins - 2hr Jon Snow vid drops you can bet your ass I'm booking a day off, putting everything on do not disturb and sitting down with popcorn and snacks to fully enjoy it
That Jon snow vid is the winds of winter of swifto, good luck waiting on that
@RealestGaround 😂 if we can wait 13 years plus for the big man himself to drop this novel, then I've got all the patience in the world for this video, and I'll believe in its imminent arrival with just as much delusion 👌 But you're right, we shouldn't put it past Schwifty here to pull a 13 year wait just for the f*ckin bants
@saminator4497 brother, I can't believe I'm writing you this but it just dropped, the Jon snow video just dropped ✊️
@RealestGaround We are so back! In Shwifty we trust 🙌 if this can happen then so can Winds 😂
…And Mushroom from Fire and Blood is, of course, Bijaz.
Holy shit
When I read messiah I actually imagined bijaz as a tyrion in another universe
Has anyone done a video on the fact that House Atreides is actually a house from Ancient Greek myth?
Isn't that just part of the story? It's mentioned in passing and more explicitly brought up in the prequel series.
My two favorite content creators for fantasy! What a combo can’t wait to listen
*I see a lot of similarities between Dune and A Song of Ice and Fire. Just as I see similarities between The Lord of the Rings and ASOIAF. But it's not a problem because GRRM knows the difference between copying and being inspired, and he was obviously inspired by these worlds/stories to create his own giant world. He himself (George Martin) admitted that there would be no ASOIAF if it weren't for Tolkien.*
LOTR and Dune inspired all modern fantasy and science fiction respectively
Right, but I don’t think I have ever heard GRRM praise and cite Dune as an inspiration like he does LOTR.
@hectorg1752 it is a bit odd, is it possible it was a subconscious influence? Because there's no way that it wasn't an influence
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy right, being completely generous I would want to believe that but there are just too many heavy handed similarities. It’s quite odd, I wish someone would ask him about Dune during an interview. I don’t want to believe he felt it could go undetected and nobody would call it out since at the time, GoT (the show) was incredibly mainstream and Dune, while always having a fandom, was a bit antiquated for some. Now with the stellar movie it found a new generation of fans and many more people have noticed the many connections to works like ASOIAF, Star Wars, ect.
@hectorg1752 yeah there's simply no way it wasn't fundamental to that first book. I wish someone would ask that too
I like when baron harkonnen says I am your father after he cuts off Jon’s hand
Love these in-depth chats... always such a treat!
Alt shift trying to combine the two things his channel does so he only has to make 1 video a year
I’ve been travelling a lot for work recently and this video is in my downloads file. I’ve fallen asleep to it 4x now. There’s something about that just drags me to sleep.
Just yesterday I was craving some new Alt Shift X content. Cheers mate!
Oh snap, I'm definitely going to try to watch this soon. I too can talk for about 3 hours or so in discussing the parallels between Dune & Game of Thrones, both thematically and direct homages. I have also in the past stated that despite the other blaring influences evident in ASOIAF (Lovecraft, Howard, Smith, Moorcock, Marvel (comics), world mythology, and Medieval history, etc.), that in some way the Dune saga seems to me to be the largest influence in some unquantifiable way. Almost as if ASOIAF is the epic fantasy answer to Dune. So anyway, yes, very much looking forward to this video. Thanks for making it!
I've read a great quote about any project in regards of Martin writing: "the first 99% of project are as not as hard as last 99% of the project" :D So it is kind of hard to predict how close the finish line really is in the middle. Personally I'm rooting for 5-6 more years to settle all the complicated knots of characters without loosing the main theme (where 1 year would be requires for all the redacting and printing preparations).
I think a better comparison to the Fremen in GOT is the Wildlings, I don't think Vas Dathrak can be considered as extreme of an environment. Whereas the Wildlings are surviving in severe cold, while contending with the White Walkers, and befriending giants and mammoths.
But they are comparing the Fremen to both, because both the Wildings and Dothraki share narrative similarities to Fremen. And While north of the wall is harsher than where the Dothraki live, where they live is still a brutal, lethal wasteland that most people avoid at all cost.
Dragons being a catalyst for magic and the worms being the catalyst for spice might be the most telling trajectory for how the dragons will end up. Thanx for being a catalyst for this discussion, alt shift x!
Catalyst
@@Slechy_Lesh thanks for the correction
Dragon farts == Pixie dust
also DARK OVER series by Marion Zimmer Bradley should be a heavy influnce on GRRM.
it even got a giant wall of ice, houses, fancy swords, and characters called "ashara" for example
The Leto/Ned thumbnail is perfect. Leto and Ned both were killed in the first season.
Durrrr no shit
@@6tiple6ix6afia khuuu khuuu khuuu smash the beetles, smash them!
27:50 yes, Baron Vladimir Harkonnen, the most beautiful character in all of Dune 😍💀
> Fremen are reduces to Museum Fremen
But I guess they must be rather happy? I mean, they don't have to die of dehydration anymore... Some of them might even die drowning every once in a while.
4:36 I don‘t think Ned is meant to be a model for someone who uses power well. One of his first scenes is beheading a frightened man without a real trial juristically or any empathy emotionally. I would interpret Ned as a criticism of hierarchy (especially of course feudal hierarchy) insofar that even when following every detail of medieval honorary code, and not abusing power, one is not able to act morally within this system.
I really like this point, but I do think they establish guilt when explaining that the guy ran. They took away doubt which was similar to a trial. On the other hand the guy was talking about white walkers IIRC, so he cut off an important warning people needed to hear. If that was the case it could mean what you described but not just impeding morals but existence entirely.
It’s explicably explained that you cannot abandon your position in the Nights watch. It’s literally like a prison / and a sort of military. And doing so is punishable by death. Ned was teaching bran Duty, integrity
And the book ends with his own execution showing the karma.
@@LeSeulGarcon i‘m talking about a modern understanding of morality. I think we both agree that a soldier, or prison escapee should not be immediately killed, especially if they didn‘t hurt anyone during their escape, and are clearly heavily disturbed. Ned didn‘t properly hear the guy out, as then they might have found the site where his squad was attacking (this would be a necessary component, even in a military trial). Seeing this execution as a kind of moral lesson from an outside perspective, is just wrong. Neds uncompromising following of the codes of his society eventually leads to his death, where he gets executed in an unfair way as another commenter mentioned.
Great, insightful convos with one caveat: Aziz laughing for no reason at all, every 10 seconds. Brutal.
The French book series "The Accursed Kings," is a *HUGE* influence on ASOIAF.
George wrote the forward when the books were republished in English.
3:12:00 as far as Frank being more concerned with humanity going extinct, I wonder how much of that comes from living during the Cold War with nuclear extinction in the back of everyone’s mind
Bionicle lore videos sounds like an amazing idea. April Fools doesn't need to be a prerequisite.
I love how you can pronounce 'Piter de Vries' name as 'Petyr de Varys'
Have you read the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn books? There are some pretty heavy comparisons to Song of Ice and Fire in that one too, especially in regards to the North and the children of the forest.
I believe MST was said by George himself to be an inspiration.
@@carriedoan817 Didn't know that, thanks! :)
"I Claudius" is more of an inspiration for ASoIaF. Reading it I had Leo-Di-Caprio face every 5 minutes as I thought "That's the same in ASOS!", "He's literally Littlefinger" or "Ooh, that's probably gonna happen in Winds"
Personally, I think Battletech is more of an inspiration. Many factions feel like they were removed from the sci-fi setting and tweaked into Game of Thrones. Plus, Geroge R. R. Martin did say he was inspired by science fiction and was meant by the White Walkers. Though nothing was said, he could not be inspired by multiple sources.
As for comparison:
House Stark = House Davion, both in how they want to be portrayed as honorable but are actually willing to do in history. They mostly kept to themselves for a large portion of history. Still, they always made the most significant political moves when active in the galactic community, causing great harm to the family and nearly causing the family to go extinct several times. Also, get away with many things by being the good guy faction.
North = Federated Suns ruled by House Davion, the largest territory, one of the most potent military but vastly underdeveloped. The only difference is the wide variety of worlds and having the largest population. Also, they are the primary center of an old religion that few believe in outside the Federated Suns (Christianity).
Also, the North is similar to the Turrian Concordont, but I felt Federated Suns are a better example.
House Lannister = House Kuriata with the Lyran Common Wealth. They are the most ruthless House and demand utmost loyalty, use tricky to usurp thrones of others on the flimsy excuse and trick their way into power, and outsmart the previous ruling family, which were family.
Westerland = Draconis Combine ruled by House Kurita, in they state that uses fear to keep their subjects in line where might make right with many lords using the sword to enact control
House Tyrell = House Stinner in that they are bumbling fools until they are not; then, they are perfect rulers or leaders. Also, they are incredibly wealthy due to being a merchant and never forgetting it, and they mostly flaunt wealth to keep in control. However, House Steiner does it by choice, for they could be as tyrannical as House Kuriata.
Reach = Lyran Commonwealth rich territory that supplies many goods to all other factions and earns great wealth.
House Mudd and Tully = House Marrik are trying to keep warring factions that answer to him from killing each other and get usurped by outside forces making a mess of their House that fight to retake their head status.
Riverlands = Free World League as they spend more time fighting each other, and the heads desperately try to keep it together.
House Greyjoy = House Leoa small-time commanders of a fleet that usurp power from the previous ruling House to reform the government into what it is today. Think they are master-class chess players and warriors, but their plans depend on backstabbing and no one retaliating. Also, a good number of their wars started due to finding a girl attractive and tried to raid the nation to claim the girl as a sex slave, only to kill them in the end.
Mad King = Max Leoa he was the ruler of a state in the succession war and was utterly mad to the point that caused a lot of death and destruction and led House Davion to go after them in revenge. Also, he is easily manipulated by Comstar to be his own doom.
Ironborn = Copellan Confederation is the group that backstabs everyone; everyone knows they backstab others and can pull surprise attacks but get shit on when the other factions take them seriously and constantly lose lives and territory. Also, they used to be a mighty state and one of the largest, now a former shadow of themselves that barely survives. Depend on the Star League for protection as it was like picking at other powers, thought it was their time to rise when it went to fight in the Succession Wars, but soon regretted their decision when they started losing lives regularly. One of the most unstable states with infight for the seat of power but has the most brainwashed citizens that are too loyal to the state, and labor depends on slaves that are not considered slaves but survivors.
House Targaryen = House Cameron is the head of state and became First Lord of the Star League. The family started off great by convincing and conquering all the great powers but quickly declined after their success with a few great reformers that were unlikely, had a priest turn ruler, and the last First Lord died to stupidity and trust in a friend he should not have trusted.
Rahegar Targaryen = Richard Cameron was the hope of House Targaryen and turned out more as a liability that eventually led to the end of House Cameron to only a few survivors (if any), with many speculating his sister survived.
Crownlands = Terran Hegemony Once the center of power of Star League, it was one of the riches of territory and offered great wealth in terms of technology and resources, but is a former shadow of itself swallowed up slowly by others with only the capital now essential and fought over by other factions for the right of rulership.
Kingsgaud = Black Watch, the elite army that defends the king and utterly fails to do so. They are considered the top of the crop, extremely elite, legends in their own right, and impossible to put down without losing a lot of people. Was briefly resurrected
Stormland = the Rimworld Republic, a powerful state outside the everyday politics of the Star League that became a significant player within a few categories. The Amaris Family usurped control from House Cammeran and Terran Hegemony but quickly lost its power within two decades. It was reduced to a puppet state to be absorbed by the Lyran Commonwealth.
Dorne = Conopus is a state with connections that are occasionally good with the Inner Spear, has a history of female rules as opposed to the mostly male rulers of others, very open sexually,
Have a surprisingly powerful military but are also mostly blustered and depend more on home-field advantage and enemies not engaging in pure scorch-earth policies to win. Also, fought against unification with the Star League and broke away when they could.
Free States = Outerworld Alliance, a collection of city-states outside the Inner Spear that is allied only on paper and
Maesters = Comstar, the organization everyone is forced to use, for they have no choice but to secretly try to keep the factions fighting each other, horde information, and hide information they consider dangerous.
White Walkers = Clanners, originally humans; they are genetically enhanced humans with advanced technology that seems alien yet familiar and incredibly advanced that invaded the Inner Sphere from somewhere beyond known human territory and come to reclaim what they think is theirs. At the same time, the factions were engaged in each other's threats until they were beaten in a single battle, and the different factions then returned to pummel each other.
Use the name the Great Houses from Battletech to describe the rulers.
The War of Five Kings = The Succession Wars, the Great Houses fighting over the First Lord's Chair of the Star League. It will likely end the same way in A Song of Fire and Ice: a return to an age of constant wars with no true victor in sight.
Baleish = Amaris, a man who tried to usurp the throne of the Star League that kickstarted the Succession Wars and sort of succeeded in his plans, but his actions caused the failure that ultimately led to his death at the hands of the person that he tried to come to his side, Alexander Krensky, a man he considers a more after taught after things do not go his way. At the same time, he also severely harms the man personally and makes him have to retake his home before going after him. Also, the Amris family started as minor nobility and usurped power outside their home territory, a master manipulator. They personally did it due to perceived slights he wanted vengeance on and greed.
There are far more, but it was getting too long. These are just the surface examples.
Everyone always says Ned was bad at politicking, but Secrets of the Citadel (if you're reading this, come back, we miss your rich Derbyshire accent) made a good point about how sending Beric to capture the Mountain would have snookered Tywin if Cersei's dumbass scheme didn't pan out the way it was meant to out of sheer fluke
2:24:10 "...I have been thinking of an April Fool's joke explaining BIONICLE's lore."
Tell it in chronological order for extra confusion. The Toa Mata won't show up until two-thirds way through the video.
Thanks both - great discussion ❤
I would like to point out to the archetype of noble knight in both Dune and ASIOF:
Duncan Idaho and Duncan the Tall
Love seeing this combo!
Alt shift X upload? We are blessed lads.
Check out the Elric saga it was a major inspiration to George
This was great. Thank you both.
Great discussion. Thanks guys
Aziz! History of Westeros is the best in the game, so happy to see a collab
I totally see the parallels. Especially when Jon Snow screams “Father! The sleeper has awaken!”
Didn’t War of the Roses also inspire a song of Ice and Fire?
Yes, it inspired war of the five kings, you are correct
Been thinking about this for a while...thanks for the video ✌️
Thufir and Leeuwin have another parallel! They both served the enemy because they thought their rightful young rulers were dead, and they also both saw them alive one last time, *as they were dying*, and seemed to find peace.
I guess, you can find a lot of books and authors who "inspired" GRRM, if we go down that lane. As far as I know though, he dubbed The Accursed Kings "the original game of thrones", citing Druon's novels as an inspiration for his own series.
😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊0😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊0😊😊😊😊😊😊😊0😊
Anyone looking for asoiaf levels of medieval political intrigue should read the prince of nothing series!
"Prince Of Nothing"
@JohnV170 "no one gives shit that you feel so ignored by everyone that you feel the need to correct YT comments that do not require capitalization or commas"
> Thufir is much more villainous dude than Luwin
Well, I wouldn't be so sure...
Thufir was at least on Atreides side for sure.
Luwin's true allegiances are unknown, but he didn't have to be poisoned to work for Stark enemies.
Maybe the maesters parallel the Bene Gesserit in secretive long range plans
@@kidgforce1 They definitely do to some extent.
But they can't control the temperature of their genitalia, so they aren't as fun.
Sorry for the off topic comment, but I'd love to see this channel also covering the Foundation series on Apple TV+. I know it's not as popular as GoT or Dune, but it has been a great show so far. Cheers.
Agree! Foundation is wonderful!!!!
The very first book of game of thrones was just as much as dune be it the medieval version, because, if not for the obvious Robot Jihad and the Robert Rebellion similarities the stark and Atreides moving from their ancestral home in the behest of their king was infact a sign calamity will happen for mostly the family head, but still they're creative difference in their storytelling telling is still unique in their respective worlds
Robert's Rebellion is closer to the previous "war of assassins" that involved multiple houses. The Jihad is closer to Aegon's Conquest in that it occurred long before any of the main characters were born and is what established the feudal system they find themselves in.
I think your view of having to do bad things for power is a great one.
Ned literally demonstrates this well. He thinks that Joffrey is illegitimate so he tries to plot a way to block the Queen in installing him as king when Robert is about to die. Two individuals present a morally questionable method of gaining that power, Renly says that Ned must assault at night so that teh Queen will be vulnerable, whereas Littlefinger suggests they get hands on Joffrey and install him as puppet and hold the threat of revealing his bastardy to set up another ruler. Ned rejects both offers. Even when he is caught and captured he does not compromise his morality.
But he does compromise his morality though, when he thinks it will save Sansa and Arya: he admits to treason to be sent to the Wall to guarantee the safety of his children. I think at this point he dies because he compromised his morals. Except that's not a very GRRM story.
He actually already compromised his morals: he knew that Joffrey was illegitimate, when he was at Robert's death bed. Instead of revealing this fact to Robert he aduterates Robert's will: he replaces Robert's dictation "Until my son Joffrey comes of age" to "Until the true heir comes of age". He did not tell Robert the truth but adulterated the will with his cowardice. In a sense the failure of his coup is ironically justice: he is there with a fake document to usurp the one whom Robert designated as heir. Even though they aren't his children, the will is a forgery, since Ned changed the words. Ned's literal downfall begins with his attempt to usurp the one Robert designated as heir. In a way his story closes with him being correctly executed for treason, even though he thinks the heir is illegitimate.
Yes! Aziz! He's not only one of the most knowledgable ASOIAF podcasters, but his predictions for the books and show are not based in magical thinking and delusions of grandeur like... well, Preston Jacobs.
I disagree with a lot of Preston Jacobs’ takes, but what magician thinking and delusions of grandeur are you referring to? He doesn’t like the magic, and he’s actually well read on George and has pointed out many similarities and parallels to previous works that I’ve found quite revealing. He takes odd turns often but the legwork is pretty much always done well. I’ll take him over any other ASOIAF UA-camr.
I also like that there are different corners in the fandom that like and prefer different things. I don’t care for David Lightbringer on a personal level and can’t stand to head his “this is X type figure” etc but he’s got an audience
@@Galero15my favourite example is the Littlefinger plot video, where Preston has good takes, good information, setting the scene... And then his conclusion is that Littlefinger is trying to appease the Old Gods because Sansa has red hair or something
@@Galero15hmm, people seem to have a lot of speculative-but-definite (because it's obvious!) diagnoses for UA-camrs and podcasters... but the comments are interesting to read at least.
PS *gasp* I love David Lightbringer! I must just be "one of X type of figures..." 😅 💚
Joe Magician is the GOAT for theories. Crowfood's daughter is also great, as well as In Deep Geek. Hills Alive doesn't do theories as much as analysis but she has some very original takes as well
LML and Preston Jacobs are definitely not high on my list either lol
interesting spoiler part finally starts at 2:25:55 if you want to skip all the preamble like i did
In Dune do they ever go over the Fremen's view point on turning their planet into a paradise and how that could possibly kill Shai-hulud?
Yes, in later books.
Takes till about book 3
I disagree that Frank Herbert is cynically telling the reader to coldly trust in logic and reason above everything. In "Messiah" Paul Atreides says he is worse than Hitler; if that isn't Frank telling us that Paul/kwisatz haderach/omniscience is bad then I don't know.
Because the golden path is a lie. It’s a set of predictions based on our extremely limited understanding of the universe. Can it really account for every note of dust, every bacterium, every neuron in a man’s brain? Of course it can’t.
It’s why it takes Leto II 4 thousand years to actually do anything of note.
We must have faith, faith in the goodness of others to progress as a species. Forgiveness for our enemies and compassion for those who harm us. If a better world cannot be achieved that way then I want no part in this world.
But this is why I have faith.
By the end of the dune books people are just back to square one, nothing has really changed the only thing Leto II did was make sure nobody else could use prescience to do what he did.
(Tywin referring to Jaime's capture in AGoT)
"They have my Son!"
(Duke Leto referring to the hunter-seeker)
"They tried to take the life of my son!!"
How do we get his before the S02 E08 explained????? Explain that, Shift??
so professional 37:15 im not being sarcastic he went right back into it
X spoiling us with quality content
George obviously doesn't care to finish the books. I kind of don't blame him, he's made his money, and he spent a lot of time with GOT, he's doing other projects too. With that said, I think he should hand it off to a team, get people like you help, he gives high level notes they do the grunt work and touch up. At least finish it in some capacity it doesn't have to be perfect. Do it now while he's still alive. You don't see many old overweight people. Just saying time is running out!
He hates us for enjoying his work.
Loved this!
Haven't watched the video but when I was watching the first season of GoT, all I could think of was how much it reminded me of dune
So can we all agree that Winds will be the new Chapterhouse
Can't believe I missed this. I didn't get a notification
when does the jon snow video come out???
Dune also inspired as did the Time Machine Martin's earlier stories, which were science fiction. Specifically In the House of the Worm. direct God Emperor of Dune parallels but others.
Great chat 😊
I was listening to this while sleeping and literally woke up after I heard him cut the dude off. What WAS that line when-?
Dune = Dorne
Sapho juice = Shade of the evening
Bran Stark = Leto II one a tree and other a worm
You’re so right about Bran and Leto, also they’re both insufferable to listen to once they become all powerful
@@calebhorton4701 I like that type of writing though, the more they become inhuman but powerful the more unrelatable they become
I think its boring how some Sci/Fantasies have these ultra powerful gods that are kinda human but still very human and likable, it doesn't make too much sense to me
Trees have apples and apples have worms, it's all connected!!!
Literary analysis of ASOIAF and not just people arguing over in-universe everything? This is madness!
But seriously, this is one of the few channels that actually does this. Literary analysis of ASOIAF is pretty uncommon in general. You certainly don't find much of it on the fan boards. It's all "What if Jaime had done x or y or what if the Kingsguard had all been at the Battle of the Trident or who would win between a and b and what was x person's motivation and what if, what if, what if..." Lol
GRR Martin said multiple times that most of ASOIF was mainly inspired by a french series of novels called "Les Rois Maudits" (the cursed kings) which in turn is a romanced version of a dynasty of french kings. Jon Snow was inspired by a famous historical imposter who claimed to be then deceased royal heir Jean le Posthume (John the posthumous) who died a day after his birth but was rumored to have been kidnapped or hidden to avoid assassination. Part of the french novel plot is that this character is actually telling the truth. Robert Baratheon was inspired by another French king also featured in the same series of novels: king Philip IV who died after falling from his horse during a wild boar hunt. Several other characters are inspired by this series of novels. The Lannisters are inspired by the Plantagenet family and Cersei is inspired by Alienor of Aquitaine. Ned Stark is inspired by another historical figure named Guillaume de Nogaret (William of Nogaret). The Targaeryans seem to borrow more from the greek myths (survivors of the fall of Atlantis, with Valyrian steel being a variation on the theme of "orichalk", a magic alloy the atlanteans were supposed to have mastered), just as the Atréides family.
Not available on Spotify
No one gives a shit
1:03:37 I would read the hell out of a Dream of Spring if it was just about some portly man in Bravos lamenting to his pet turtle about the War of the Five Kings and the Battle of the Dawn.
This is awesome, BUT WHERE IS THE JON SNOW VIDEO
@@anonymous-hz2un yeah, I just finished it!
@@anonymous-hz2unbro really has become George RR Martin 😭😂😂
GOT (show) was definitely GRRM's ending: [SPOILERS] It ends the same as Dune Messiah (John goes North, and Paul...walks into the desert.) Also, both stories have fraternal twins. Cersei and Jamie are incestuous, and L2 & G marry. And regarding Petyr & Piter: Both want the same woman: Catelyn/Jessica.
"I think GRRM has a better chance of finishing his story" I was so waiting for you to finish with "Because he's still alive"
I haven't read the books yet but watching the movie I thought it was obvious Ned Stark to a certain degree was inspired by Duke Leto and now that I think about it Jon is a little inspired by Paul Atreidis?
like how Leto is loved for being an honorable leader and as soon as he moves away from his home things turn dark for them?
and a bunch of other things that are similar, Spice and the Shade of the Evening? Maesters and Mentat
Baron is like a more villainous Tywin, I think Aerys Targaryen is influenced by him, or maybe Maegor?
and that wormlike transformation could kind of be similar to Bloodraven and how he's entangled with a tree and can see visions and the future and he's inhuman but very powerful(the current bloodraven, not when he was human)
but what I love about both is how anti-war and obviously political both are, warning us about Powerful and Charismatic leaders that think its their birthright to herd the sheep and how they manipulate regular people, and how the average person gets crushed by war and its just seen as regular business by the Elite, I'd go as far as saying GRRM actually continued Herbert's political points with how he called his first book 'Game of Thrones' which shows how some people in power deliberately not only won't try to stop crisis or war but they're Accelerationists who use that Chaos as opportunity without caring about what happens to the average joe, and I'm not talking about crazy conspiracies and Illuminati or some stupid shit, in case of Dune its clear its partly about Strong Man Theory and Fascism, where people give all their power to one man who they stupidly consider to be Extraordinary, like what happened in Nazi Germany, but that's just a part of his writing, there's a lot more to it.
I read both books in a short time frame and was struck by the Atreides-Stark similarities. Mainly Duke Leto - Ned, Jessica - Catelyn and Paul - Jon/Robb/Bran. The first half of Dune is very very similar in style to ASOIAF.
@@aldeayeah now that I think about it Paul is more like Bran than Jon, probably? with the visions and everything, but its probably not a one to one similarity, unless Bran becomes that one magical leader everyone starts following instead of Jon? but it looks like Jon will be that guy
@@Ar1AnX1x
SPOILERS (if you aren't familiar with the books)
Before his attempt at committing spice-icide (yes, I'm very proud of the joke lol), he is more akin to Jon. Jon also has some magical aptitude, with his dreams and Ghost, and we also see him growing up, having to deal with the death of his father and the harsher reality of life as as a commoner (who still has some special privileges).
But there are definitely also similarities to Bran - before the spice-trance Paul is still very much a student, like Bran. After the spice awakening he is more akin to what Bran will become.
Wanted to compare it to Bloodraven at first, but he's more like poor Leto II after his worm power-up. Or maybe future Bran will be like Leto II, and Bloodraven is more like post-spice bath Paul.
@@mejuliie yeah and that's why I like GRRM's writing, its inspired by a lot of different things but its not a one to one copy pasted, the inspirations are mostly organically grown all over his writing and its complicated
and I haven't read Dune so I didn't wanna pretend like I know if Bran is more like Paul or Jon
@Ar1AnX1x honestly I see Jon, Brandon, and Dany as three aspects of Paul. I'm not sure which is more "him" than the other two because they all contain a bit. I'm guessing the dragon having 3 heads means that they each share a part of that archetype: Bran has visions and access to time and space, Jon is the noble warrior who embodies a type of masculine leadership, and Dany is the charismatic leader with access to powerful weapons in her dragons
Pretty sure Quaith is Elissa Farman. Quaith is obsessed with Danny traveling to westeros via asshai (the way she got there but reversed/ backwards to go forwards, east to go west = circle the globe) She knows Danny has the eggs she stole.
Wait a minute what's this doing on the food reviewer man's channel?
I notice that a lot of medieval-fantasy, at least those which maintain any meaningful analog to real history, often underplay the Islamic factor, probably because of how much it smacks of orientalism. However, I do consider "falling stars" and "mysterious black" stone as being indictive of the fact that George is likely more knowledgeable about this religious element factoring into his own story. I suppose I thought of it because of how Dune is so obviously influenced by the Middle East as well. It definitely seems relevant.
I'd be interested in a comparison between ASoIaF and the Elric Saga by Michael Moorcock. Quite a few substantial comparisons there
Only if George RR Martin's last book in the series ends with the new King Bran the Broken fusing together with the flesh of a dragon and he rules Westeros for 3,500 years using his powers to predict the future as well as looking deep into the past.
Why are there so many similarities? Bc they're in the same universe
Planatos is only a few hundred light-years away from Rakis arakis arakiss whatever
i have no idea how i ended up watching this but it helped me sleep so thank you keep producing amazing sleep videos
Ever thought about taking a look at the wheel of time . Also a lot of similarities with both asoiaf
Paul Atreides has 6 aliases in addition to being Harry Potter, Aegon the Conqueror, the Prince that was Promised and the Attack Titan
Should point out that houses Gardener, Stark and Lannister all claim descent from the Age of Heroes.
DOES GLIMBO KNOW ABOUT THIS
Why does Glidus sound so nerdy and American?
I don't think you talked about Rodrik Cassel and Gurney Halleck -- not that they're similar characters, but there is a parallel in that in both stories one of the mentors for the protagonist(s) is the weapons trainer. Also some similarity between Syrio Forel and Duncan Idaho.