Why Do We Care So Much About Drum Resonance/Sustain?
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- Опубліковано 20 січ 2023
- Today I want to (carefully) open up the discussion regarding drum resonance. In reality I'm talking about sustain, which is often referred to as resonance. It's always struck me as strange that we talk about drums with maximum sustain as being superior. Here I'll try to articulate why that seems bizarre to me, and hopefully get some feedback from you all as well.
Thanks for watching!
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In terms of sustain, I typically want it short on bass drum, little longer on snare, little longer on floor tom. Even on the floor tom maybe max 1s before the tone severely decays.
I love the example you played... The 12 inch tom just sustains for 5 seconds. I couldn't stop laughing at that. Point well made. Here's the issue: If you're mic'd, IT DOESN'T MATTER! I'm sorry, I'm a Jazzer, and I don't mean to denigrate the rock guys, but if I'm mic'd... give me a $100 AliBaba Drum set and I will make them sound HOWEVER I WANT! The drums don't matter. Now take that same $100 set to an Acoustic Jazz gig, and now things have changed. If you're playing un-mic'd, then you have to understand the difference between stage sound and house sound. Playing thin single ply heads is not fun, and it sounds very harsh when you're behind the drum set, but in the house it sounds resonate. Put Emperor's on, and it will sound and feel great behind the set, but in the house it sounds like you're hitting cardboard boxes. That's why Jazzers chase after sustain, because the house will hear about 1/6 of the sustain you're hearing behind the kit.
Hi Cole! I engineer and drum regularly with a focus on metal and rock. Here's my perspective.
As a drummer I love to appreciate the tone of a nice sounding drum for as long as it'll go. I think this is where a lot of the hype over sustain comes from. When you're hitting a drum without the context of music, it's nice to be able to just hit it and appreciate the sound that comes out for a bit without having to hit it over and over again to keep listening to it. When you add music, this sort of fascination diminishes as the music itself takes center stage.
As a drummer with an engineer's perspective, there are a lot of things to consider when it comes to how much sustain I'd like out of my kit. Am I playing in a live setting to an audience or in a studio to the mics? What style of music am I playing and what purpose do the drums serve within the music? If I'm going to be playing faster parts, I'll likely want less sustain to keep things from getting muddy. However, there are certain instances where having some decent sustain would be preferable. As an example: if I'm about to dive into a breakdown that kicks off with a dual floor tom hit, I'm definitely going to want those bass frequencies sustaining for a bit before the beat drops back in. If it were choked, you'd lose the anticipation in the music during the part of the song where the audience is meant to go nuts.
Something else to consider is the room I'm playing in. If I'm trapped inside a plexiglass booth or a large reverberating room, I'll likely be getting tons of reflections muddying up the sound (this is actually my situation at home), so I'll probably want as little sustain as possible without killing the rest of the tone because the room will be giving a lot back to me. On the other end, if I'm in an acoustically treated studio setup that minimizes reflections and has a good room sound, I'll probably want my drums to sing a bit more because I'm able to let them and it's nice to get that sustain from the source rather than from reflections.
As far as my personal preferences, I'm not a huge fan of sustain. I like just enough to capture the sound of the drum and then it should get out of the way to make room for the next note. That said, having a drumset that can sustain for a long time is still my ideal because if I am looking for more sustain, I'd rather be able to get it from the source and dial it back if needed than to try to produce more sustain artificially after the fact.
Currently I'm playing on a Mapex Saturn Evolution kit. It's got some killer sustain and sounds beautiful, but in my applications I have the toms pretty much out of the way in under a second.
Thank you for starting this conversation! I hope this helps add to it!
Not sure how I failed to respond to this at the time. Appreciate the thoughts and your valuable insight!
This is a really fun thought experiment that forces you into actually considering how much sustain you might want in terms of time length, rather than just 'more is more.' Most drummers I watch use some kind of gel dampening, so it'd be fair to say we've reached peak sustain at this point. I like 'em short and punchy, so your demo with enhanced sustains was particularly amusing. Thanks for this!
I think you touched on a good point when you demonstrated that you can get sustain with effects after the fact. As for how long it should be, I tend to think for noticable length (peak at -6dB, End at -30dB) I like it around one measure at 85bpm. I'm not typically going to keep the drum at that level of sustain but I like the option. Most sound guys I've worked with seem to like a lot less than that. The thing I think you have to keep in mind is what heads you're using and how you have the drum tuned. On my live kit I've been using Evans Hydraulic drum heads, but in the studio I tend to use coated G2 heads. I do use more dampening in the studio than I do live, but I want that extra level of control to be able make adjustments.
It was a huge thing when they came out with RIMS mounts for toms back in the 80s. It changed the sustain game completely but it also lead to the development of a lot more dampening technology, like moon gels. Now people are trying to get that "vintage sound" and drum companies are releasing lines with 60° bearing edges with an outside round over. I think they're all valid sounds when used appropriately. I personally like having a decent amount of sustain so I can tweak it to exactly the amount I want to have when I'm playing, and I think modern drums in most cases do a really good job at that task.
My Zildjian K Custom ride cymbal rang for a damnn! minute & still vibrating. 😂🤣🤣🤣🤣
I very much subscribe to the argument that drums capable of having a longer sustain are more versatile because you can always reduce sustain through muffling but you can't get a dead sounding drum to sustain for longer (apart from through artificial means). That's actually one of the reasons I've never been very interested in buying vintage drums - to me they have a much narrower range of sound possibilities compared to something like a modern Sonor or Yamaha kit. That recording at 4:53 was interesting but I think one of the main reasons why it didn't sound that great was you were artificially adding sustain to a type of tuning that didn't call for it, rather than the drums naturally producing it, which I would say further supports my argument (btw I have no doubt those DWs could produce that kind of sound naturally if you were to take the tape off, tune them higher etc.).
I think also when people talk about drums "singing" or having "great sustain" they're also talking about the quality of the sustain as well as the note length itself. E.g. for me another reason why that recording at 4:53 didn't quite work was the big downward pitch bends those toms were producing, as well as the heavy low mids - neither of which worked with that level of sustain. They may have had a long sustain but tone wasn't dialled in to give the sustain any value. I think you're right when you talk at the end about the overall "tone" being the most important thing. And for my taste, the drums out there with the best tone are the ones that are able to (when called for) produce a nice clean sustain with a strong fundamental note that doesn't dip too much. For me, that's the sound I find the most satisfying personally and it's not a sound I've found all drums are able to deliver.
Your points on why my example didn't sound good, I think, are totally valid. A longer sustaining drum would definitely sound better than my artificially extended example. Your second point I also totally agree with - overall tone (timbre) should probably be more important than strictly sustain. I am curious though, since you want drums with more sustain rather than less, how long do you want the note from each of your toms to last?
@@ColeParamore I wouldn't go as far as just saying more sustain = a better drum sound. Obviously there is a point where it becomes more than you'd ever need or want in any situation (I find 14" floor toms can fall into this category). But I would say if we're just talking clear single ply heads, the sweet spot for me is pretty much this kit here: ua-cam.com/video/GwwvzrhjmnA/v-deo.html
@@ColeParamore But another factor for me is that I usually like to use coated 2 ply heads on the toms, as I like the fatness of their attack. I find quite a lot of drums tend to choke out with those kinds of heads on. So to have a kit that can still give me a nice amount of tom sustain with 2 ply heads is definitely an important thing for me too. Medium thickness maple drums such as the Ludwig Classic Maple, Sonor SQ2 Medium Maple and Yamaha Absolute Hybrid Maple seem to be really good at that doing that in my experience.
@@robinjohnson6301 Interesting. One would expect greater mass to sustain for longer though, no?
@@ColeParamore I'm wouldn't say I'm an expert on the physics but in my experience, 2 ply heads definitely seem to have less sustain than single ply. I still generally prefer them on toms overall as they have a certain fatness to their attack/overall tone that single ply heads don't quite have. I know I sound like I've backtracked here slightly but I feel like both the "fatness" and the sustain are both really important with toms. Like you quite rightly say, sustain isn't everything.
important topic! Of course, it depends on the way you tune your set, high or low and the relation between batter and reso side..... I tried so many different drum kits that i made a real strong experience for myself and the way I tune the drums. And we are talking about top of the line drum kits or at least kits for over 2500 E (or D). The perfect sustain (for me) coming from shells from Sonor and Yamaha. The most problems of endless ringing, especially the floor toms, had DW and Mapex. Gretsch and Pearl are in between .........
Since I don't have my own drumset, I'm not attached to any one particular snare or type of snare. So from my perspective, context is important for determining the optimal amount of snare sustain. Long sustain in death metal might get too muddy, whereas in something more laid back it would fill in the space between notes nicely.
Now, I really don't get the logic behind valuing a guitar based on its sustain, especially since that's mostly based on the strings. If you want a longer guitar sustain, just use a compressor!
Sm7b on the rack Tom? Interested. Is this a normal set up for you? Should I try it? I use a slate ml2!
I change mics around quite a lot, but I like 57s and consequently 7Bs on toms, floor as well. If you're rocking the ML2 throw the SM7 emulation on there and give it a go!
I think people like resonance/sustain because higher frequencies are affected more by ‘imperfect’ resonance aka dampening. Therefor a drum with more sustain wil also have more high frequency presence. Another reason is that well-resonating have a more of the character of the resonating elements in the sound. Which makes it more complex and pleasurable to listen to. An acoustic guitar sounds better than some strings suspended in the air, because the body adds to the complexity of the sound
I'm not sure I'm 100% aligned on a more "complex" sound being objectively better. I'm assuming you mean more harmonics, in which case you could argue that overdrive, saturation, and distortion are all more complex sounds and therefore more pleasurable to listen to. Now, I love distortion but if we take that logic to its natural conclusion white noise would be the most pleasurable sound, no?
@@ColeParamorebetter is never objective of course! But what I mean by complex is that the different resonating parts not only create overtones, but also take the sound of the heads and ‘EQ’ it. For example a 12x7 snare has a mid pitched thump to its attack which I believe is caused by the resonant frequencies of the drum (not the heads). I would liken it to an impulse response rather than a distortion. And I think a less resonant drum will have less of this character. But I base this mostly of what I hear and also playing around with physical modelling synths a little bit.
And, IMO, tuning is the most reliable means to increase sustain, not the drums' construction or materials. Also, we can utilize methods such as tuning a drum to "lowest possible pitch," versus tuning to the note made by striking the shell, which might produce a truer, more melodic pitch in the latter drum. Then there are means such as matching the batter and reso head, versus upwards or downwards pitching the reso.
Of course, whether or not longer sustain time will be good depends upon the tempo of the song and the number of divisions / notes played on fills, etc. If the tempo is fast and there are lots of 16th notes or even 32nd note fills, then sustain is not important or helpful. OTOH, if its a ballad like tempo with single tom notes or flams played, which might need to sustain until the next beat, then yes, I'd try to tune for more sustain on that song.
A lot I agree with on this comment and your other one as well. Another factor I didn't even talk about in the video is room ambience and reverb. This subject is probably worth a video on its own, but even for a ballad it isn't uncommon or difficult to have a relatively dead (or short sustaining) kit that ends up with a huge tail because of the reverb, whether real or fake.
Good point. Room mics which are heavily compressed can add a nice wide ambience which also adds some sustain, depth and size qualities. I think you alluded to the fact that having the sustain at the source, and not created by compression (or reverb) seems like a better start in recording, and I agree with this. In the 80's that long, hall reverb was the thing, but now, not so much. Gated rooms or compressed rooms ( especially on snare) just add something that reverb alone can''t.
Around one second of sustain, would be my maximum tom sustain. More than that, and the low frequency rumble gets in the way of “the music” in most musical settings
Yamaha Recording Customs are a studio staple for several reasons, but a big reason is controlled sustain.
Agreed! I think people like many vintage drums for the same reason.
@@ColeParamore Totally agree.
Poor drum manufacture, out of round drums, poorly cut bearing edges, lower density woods, sub-optimal mounting hardware, lack of isolation.... all add up to negatively affect the sustain of a drum.
Heads and tuning arguably make the biggest difference here, but in my experience with manufacturers in the industry, sustain is a basic yardstick in determining the potential quality of a drum.
Yes - there are many more pieces to consider in determining a great drum shell, but like so many other aspects of the industry, the 1% differences get overhyped in order to create a point-of-difference and ultimately sell product.
Honorable mention has to also go to the drummers who argue over wood type - like how its SO important to have 9plies of mahogany glued together at 30 degree angles with an inner and outer ply of 100-year old antarctic maple...in red - Like any of them could positiviely identify the wood by hearing the drum anyway...
I want a drum with a nice shell that CAN sustain for a long time. Partly, that's tuning... but also speaks to a good shell. Then I can dampen as needed. Better in my mind than having a drum that can't sustain as long as I want it to.
So how long do you want each shell to be capable of sustaining for?
@@ColeParamore Maybe 2 seconds or so. For toms. Shorter for bass drums and snare drums. Then I'll adjust as needed. For me, that usually means adding a moongel or two on the floor tom, one on the snare drum. Ok, and I have the EQ3 heads on my bass drum, so not too much actual sustain there - just a big thud :-)
@@DavidLeeKing Have you encountered kits that haven't been able to sustain for that long, and would this change from room to room?
@@ColeParamore No, I don't think it changes from room to room - at least with the drum itself. Obviously, you get huge amounts of natural reverb in some rooms, not so much in others. My carpeted basement vs a stone/wood/tile room with vaulted ceilings, for instance. But that's not actual drum resonance. And yes, I have played some kits that don't sustain that long. For example, I play a nasty old starter kit in the practice room of a band I'm in (someone else's kit that's always set up there). Works fine for band practice, but it doesn't really have that pure, sustain-y tone that I like.
@@DavidLeeKing The sustain of the drumhead definitely wouldn't change from room to room, but certainly our perception of how long the note lasts would change right? Is that not equally important?
A lot of the drum resonance (drums ringing out forever) I believe came from the DW marketing machine. IMHO They make a great drums, however over the years they’ve become quite ubiquitous and overrated-and overpriced. IMHO
Now I believe a lot of their hardware innovations can’t be beat, to include the 5000 pedals and hi hats.
Today's CCM hates tom sustain 😂
I want the sustain to last forever
The only way. 😂
You can stop sustaining with old drum skin & it sounds like piakk..
I always see drummers preach all kinds of dogmatic crap and then end up playing super boringly. Less is more is another classic example, a good philosophy in a lot of contexts, but it's often used as an excuse to not develop technique at all, to the point where even the "less" they're striving for doesn't even sound good. It's art. Constraints are good, but they do need to be pushed.