Great vid. I completely agree with confronting who Jesus is. Even he asked his followers "who do men say that I am" vs "who do you say that I am". In my story, I had to stop having the discourse with others and start having it with him. Discourse with man needs a "winner" vs "loser" which is too simple when discussing Jesus. It's a quest. Eventually, he revealed himself and it DEFINITELY came with a limp but well worth it. and the journey only continues but more free. Praying for yours in your own time.
I distanced myself from Christianity over ten years ago, feeling a sense of disconnection from Jesus, whom I associated with confusion. However, in 2020, I came across A Course in Miracles, and it completely transformed my life. Jesus describes this as my path back to God. Now, with Jesus Christ as my guide, I am actively working to trancend my ego. It's fascinating to realize that Jesus resides in everyone's mind, whether we are aware of it or not. Reconnecting with Jesus was unexpected, but my journey has been remarkable. Love is truly the essence of everything. I extend peace and love to all on their own paths❤
Nostalgic days when watching this, I remember watching your chaseGod wepisodes back in my high school days, I'll be turning 27 this year. And I can't tell you enough of how grateful I am being blessed with your videos Joe.
1. It’s great to see you’re not afraid to ask the questions that a lot of us wouldn’t dare to. 2. Your transparency is making me check myself. Hearing you talk about your journey is mind opening and challenging. Especially processing through years of taught belief vs what I’ve come to terms with through my own experiences.
I have a humble (and slightly tangential) contribution to make to this conversation for anyone it may help. I realize that what I may type may sound profoundly insane and admittedly subjective… but it’s helped me immensely. I didn’t grow up in the church. I came to faith at 20. So I was a skeptical Christian from the beginning and didn’t take everything at face value. I wanted a thoroughly tested faith that didn’t buckle at any hint of scrutiny. I had many questions but what remained intact was my belief in a Sovereign God. I didn’t know growing up that my family was heavily involved in the occult. So 15 years into my Christianity, everything I’d been taught about what being a Christian is, was far from complete. Going through the most terrifying and inexplicable supernatural experiences taught me that the atmosphere of Christianity is polluted with cultural nuances that we have mistaken as faith. I always thought the Church never explained the need for Jesus comprehensively enough. It’s strange to tell someone a God they know nothing about died for them. The Bible is a profoundly supernatural book and our attempt to detach it from its ancient Near Eastern and supernatural influences makes the book largely nonsensical. Let’s remember that the Bible was written primarily by Jews to a Jewish audience who was steeped in a supernatural world view. Talking donkeys, strange looking Cherubims, and four headed beasts made sense to them… not us in a post Christian, scientific era. Proving these things empirically and using today’s measures of historicity is near impossible. The major thing that keeps me from doubt is the spiritual experiences that neither western Christianity nor science can explain (and gifts I didn’t ask for). The emphasis of the New Testament is to make supernatural connections to the Old Testament and other related ancient texts. Walking on water, exorcisms, and healings make no life changing impact on us… but to a believing Jew in the early Church… they meant the Messianic defeat of evil. I am still learning… Living in a world where myth and the tangible collide inextricably. I completely agree to the complexity of faith… we will only really know on the other side.
I think it’s kinda cool that you’re interested in the mysteries of God cuz I am too. A few months back I stumbled upon this guy on here named Darnell Craig. He teaches about some of the basic things in ways I hadn’t heard but he also teaches on the more mysterious stuff. He’s definitely helped me see God in a new light while reinforcing what I already know. I pray you will have much grace, peace and faith for your journey Joe.
“The unexamined Christ is not worth having” that part. That quote made me think if Jesus is a believer’s King, Father, and Master, should they know Him intently in a visceral way not superficially to even be a faithful servant of His. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, learned a new perspective. Prayerfully I hope you follow Jesus again, and I agree with you that it would look different from your previous walk with Him, as it should.
Thank you for being transparent. I used to watch your videos right when I was starting to take my exit. It's been so many years now and I just really appreciate when people are honest with their stories. So thank you❤❤
"An unexamined Jesus is not one worth having." That's powerful. I resonate with the rampant intellectual dishonesty and intentional ignorance in the church. Even something like church history isn't known or really taught.(which crazy to me.) After I got saved I was told I shouldn't study philosophy because I'd lose my way. But I ended up loving it. In general, the notion that we shouldn't question God always felt weird to me. Like, this is God we're talking about, if He can't answer those questions then no one can and, for me, hearing the answer from God is the only one that really sticks. I loved the analogy of putting what we think of God on the altar. I alwasy say that at times Christians are "holier than God." We create barries and boundaries where God hasn't, rituals that he never asked and then crucify the ones we're called to loved on our false holiness. Instead of a real Jesus we want a fairytale. The examined Jesus is facing the reality of how crazy it is to believe. Even Paul said if we're wrong about Jesus then we are to be pitied. But that examined Jesus is also the only one that saves. We need a high priest who's aware of our weaknesses. A real incarnation who came in flesh to die. Not a blonde-haired blue-eyed prosperity genie of our imagination. I appreciate your videos and I genuinely do learn a lot. I was a big fan of your worship so it was a shock but I am grateful you are letting us into your journey. And I do pray you.
yeah I've dealt with my doubts by saying, "if my faith can't hold up to scrutiny, I need a better faith." not in a rational, systematic theological way, but just asking myself questions like, "am I being honest?" or "can this theology help me or does it hurt me?" dogma, especially dogma believed by people with no real understanding, its really scary
This is so good! Thank you Joseph for sharing your honest thoughts. This has truly blessed me. I am a Christian (almost 5 years) and I came to know Jesus through supernatural encounters but since I was 12 I struggled with disbelief. I was not raised in the church but my mom had a Catholic background so the concept of God and Jesus was introduced to me. I think the spiritual aspect is often the missing link in these sort of conversations. These are the scriptures that came to me Matthew 16:17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. Acts 9: 3-6 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” 1 Corinthians 2:1-5 “And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.” When Jesus healed me from my depression He also healed me from my spiritual blindness. It was the day I understood the cross and His immense love for me. For I was in sin when He healed me. After this encounter I began having blasphemous thoughts about Jesus which I did not understand because it was on that day I fell utterly in love with Him. I’ll end with this. My salvation was sealed through this question I had asked God in the midst of these attacks in my mind, “isn’t Jesus my advocate?” It was right after I had said this in my mind a woman at my church came up to me and told me my name was written in the book of life. Afterwards I felt a gentle fire throughout my body. I was baptized with the Holy Spirit. No one knew about the attacks and no one knew about my question. A week later I choose to get baptized in water and even during this I was still dealing with blasphemous thoughts. When I was lifted up from the water my pastor’s face changed from joy to disgust. He placed his hands over my head and began to pray for me. Again no one knew about these thoughts and no one knew about my question. I eventually confessed to my friends at church what I was dealing with and it took about 4 months of prayer for me to be fully delivered from those thoughts. Thank you for taking the time to read my comment. Much love 💗
this. I've been wondering this for a while. You put words to my thoughts. It's been strange watching you through the years. I've gone from shaking my head, hoping you'd 'wake up' and come back to having you echo the very thoughts I've been wondering to myself. Thank you for doing this
Hopefully this is a change of atmosphere for you in this comment (nothing against others). Thank you for being honest in your journey. “All cards on the table” I am an outspoken Christian former agnostic and am glad where i am but i would be lying if i were to say i haven’t gone on a similar journey. My conclusion has led me a different path but i do love seeing your journey and commentary. It’s very introspective and well displayed. Whatever conclusions you land on, much love for your future endeavors and keep searching.
Side comment: I don’t know if you have done this yet but a few words on “I cannot unread what i’ve read”. I would like to see video on everything that led you away and then exploring arguments against them. If anything for a thought exercise. I’m sure you’ve done this yourself but it would be interesting to see it in this form.
Thank you Joseph for your intellectual honesty. Hearing your arguments for and against Christianity allows me to reflect greatly on my own faith and personal relationship with God. I find your existential muses to be therapeutic and relatable as a Christian who often struggles to balance being rational with having faith. I have a podcast called Ike's Inspiration where I have engaging conversations with people from different facets of life. I would love to have you on the podcast and have a candid conversation about Christianity and faith. I have no intentions of arguing or trying to prove what's the right way to think about Christianity. Exploring our relationship with faith and Christianity would be interesting, introspective, and informative. I would be honor to have you on the platform. I will shoot you a DM as well.
There is a book called “A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing” by the physicist Lawrence M. Krauss. The main theme of the book is the claim that we have discovered that all signs suggest a universe that could and plausibly did arise from a deeper nothing-involving the absence of space itself and-which may one day return to nothing via processes that may not only be comprehensible but also processes that do not require any external control or direction. It’s good
I’d love to see you have a live conversation with a Christian who is an intellectual… it seems to me that you haven’t met a Christian who is as philosophically inclined as yourself and you mistake that to mean that Christianity does not have a philosophical, historical, or intellectual leg to stand on and I can tell you that it does. You can make long videos where you ask yourself questions and answer them yourself, but I’d like to see how you respond to actual good answers, not the bad answers you bring attention to in your talks….I will agree though there are many bad answers to choose from! I think you’re smart, I think your ultimate goal is knowing truth, and I think you have good intentions. Just saying I’d love to see you have a back and forth conversation instead of just talking.
hey. i’d just ask you to not be so quick to make assumptions. because i don’t have those conversations in front of people doesn’t mean i don’t have that. i don’t think i’d be all that smart if i didn’t spend time around people were pretty darn smart. i mean after all, who do you think suggested this book to me? lol how do you think i *became* philosophically inclined? it was with other christians lol i’ve said on this channel that i credit much of my critical thinking skills *to* christian teachers. me bringing up a dumb tik tok comment doesn’t mean im not engaging with intellectual christian thought. i was simply using her as a hyperbole of how many christian intellectuals actually feel. they pretend the case for christianity is a pretty straightforward process, even if they don’t express it as arrogantly as the commenter did. i don’t simply highlight “bad arguments”. the fine tuning argument is one that many of your favorite leading apologists make, i.e. william lane craig. arguing that Mark authorized the gospel of mark is an argument i learned in seminary lol so no, kierkegaard, considered to be a philosophical mind on par with Nietzsche, was an intellectual christian who acknowledged the subjectivity of faith and the chasm between faith and rationality.these aren’t simply “bad” or unpopular arguments ive considered. i just know that even the best arguments, are simply arguments at best. they are never “proof”. faith will always eventually have to walk alone. also, my channel isn’t really about engaging with arguments, though that’s part of it. this is really trying to explore the subjective experience of faith or losing faith, though of course, engaging with intellectual arguments is a bit inevitable. i quite like the “just get in front of the camera and talk” vibe. im not looking for a public debate, as a lot christian’s in my comments seem to be looking for. i’m here for reflections and expressing what *i* currently believe and think. there are thousands of debates on youtube if you want to hear debates. if you prefer not to just hear me talk, then you’re free to not watch me talk lol
This is why I enjoy how your channel operates because even if people agree or don’t agree you have such a strong humility to yourself to be vulnerable and able to communicate clearly. I applaud even how you responded to a critic type of comment!!
I’ve been torn about my Christian walk for a while now but I’ve never expressed it to anyone because no safe space exists for me to explain it. Thanks for your videos Joe 👏🏾
Your honesty and openness is refreshing. I went looking for your poem re: doubts today, obviously - I couldn't find it & was met by hours of thought provoking content which, challenged me and my "faith". I will have to check out some of the literature you mentioned. What you mentioned regarding putting Jesus "on the altar" is true... It is as if you may lose him. I hate your content as much as I love it - it's challenging and I resonate with your reasoning, your thoughts and your questions. Yet (maybe through fear) I selfishly worry for myself if I continue asking the same questions that what little faith I have left will dwindle, yet that that thought alone shows me just how weak and pathetic the faith I currently possess is. I crave intellectual honesty within myself, yet knowing how to attain it through the mist of my own epistemology and background is paralyzing. Don't get dragged into negativity by some of the poor comments your getting, some are concerned and don't voice it clearly or with any sort of articulation. "Deconstruction" or leaving the Christian faith is not a trivial thing. Shout out from Aus 🤙
A couple of things: For one, as someone in a similar place, open- minded like you but with a LOT of questions, which book would recommend first? Two, I really get a lot out of your videos. Usually, when people go through a "deconstruction" of sorts, you see the beginning or the end but never the middle. This is where the internal wrestling, growth, and maturity happen. These are fundamental pieces of the journey that can help others work through their questions but oftentimes gets overlooked or under-explained ESPECIALLY in a church setting. All that to say, I appreciate your candor. Three, what do you use to record? The camera quality is amazing
mmm idk if there's ever a book that someone should read "first". i think the order of which we find books interesting is kinda charm of the journey. depends on what answers or conversations you're specifically interested in entering. also, i'd say a lot of books that are not specific to this discussion have also helped me in bringing new thoughts to the discussion. some books i've recently read that i'd highly recommend are: the book from this video, the historical christ and the theological jesus. the bonobo and the atheist is another book i read this year that i really enjoyed. fear and trembling by Soren Kierkegaard. camera is a sony fx3
Christian here. I genuinely enjoyed this video to be honest. Really agree with the sentiment that a Christ not examined, is a Christ not worth believing. I appreciate the intellectual honesty concerning arguments for Christ, the seeming murkiness of various elements. I really appreciate the thought that faith really is a separate thing on its own. It may work with reason or rationality (insofar as we can reason), but ultimately, it is a separate thing needed to believe, not just a conclusion to reason per se. There are many reasonable people, who don’t believe and many reasonable ones who do. Loads was said in this vid, and I’d rather not have this comment be a dissertation lol. But really enjoyed this video 🙏🏾
Thank you Joe for your honesty and insights. Still learning from you all these years even though we're in different places. Feeling second hand embarrassment from all the cringe comments on here from my brothers and sisters. But these are my people. I'm sorry for this - it must be exhausting and I pray God forgives us. The lack of empathy and wisdom is palpable - people being so bold to say things behind keyboard that they'd never say to your face. It's very sad to see immature, not well considered comments. Honestly its been very disappointing to read these.
When I was little I read about the talking snake and I was like " this is stupid" but I didnt care cause I loved the story of Jesus and that he loved me. As I got older and read the entire bible, I was like this doesnt make a lot of sense, but once again, I didnt care cause the message of Jesus captivated me. As long as I try to folllow what Jesus taught, ill be alright. But I know its hard to take some and leav some, but thats what I do lol. Im going TRY to feed the poor, visit the sick, care for the orphan widowed, respect all creations (expect roaches) and put others about myself.
I’m glad I stumbled upon your video today. My exit out of Christianity was similar, where I felt the need to explore other supernatural concepts. It was a journey I had fun with, exploring various practices I previously just dismissed because I was told to do so. It felt good to making decisions using my own reasoning to decide whether or not I believe something. I’ve since moved on from any of that and I just don’t worry about it. If there is a force out there that knows me then it knows how to reach me. As far as Jesus, the idea that Jesus died for me because he loved me was a concept I just believed because it sounded good. As I got older, focusing more on what was happening I was always perplexed by the crucifixion story. The story just didn’t make sense to me but I went along with it because believing it was necessary to be a Christian. But I grew up strongly adversed to the idea of blood sacrifice due to my exposure to Indiana Jones movies. I knew killing someone to make something happened was just wrong. I had my own internal sense of morality that wasn’t just what the Bible says is good or what the Bible said was bad is bad. I understood what was wrong was wrong but when I saw it in the Bible I just avoided those parts so I could keep believing it. The cognitive dissonance was very strong It took several years for me to explore the Bible without ignoring or excusing problematic passages. I finally realized I belonged to a group that worships a human sacrifice. I could never make peace with a god that requires something like that. There’s so much more involved with my deconstruction and deconversion but that’s my situation with Jesus.
Hi, I appreciate your thoughtful post. The Old Testament is full of examples of God denouncing and detesting human sacrifice (Deut 18:10, Jer 7:31 to name a couple). Jesus’ life is different. Regarding His life he says, “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again” (John 10:18). As a parent, this makes me think of how I would die to protect my kids from harm.
Proverbs: 3: 5-6 5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.
What's always made you a dope dictator is that your videos are thought provoking and challenging. As a sort of intellectual person myself, I like (sometimes not, as the questions pull up uninvited and I try to welcome them w open arms regardless) to challenge God and my own self with questions very often. And from a Christian perspective, I think that we never stop learning about/getting to know Jesus as He constantly works in us thru the Holy Spirit that teaches, humbles and brings us wisdom and shows us the way He works. But anyway, bless you fam, it's always nice to hear your perspective of things, know that you keep being an inspiration to many of us by just being human, you're aknowledged and respected
Joseph, Jesus loves you bro. I feel like you’re on a journey that won’t actually lead to a place of complete understanding of whatever it is you’re looking for because life with Christ is all about faith. I don’t believe that those of us we will ever understand everything about who God is, why he does what he does, or the history of everything. But I just wonder why knowing he existed and exists now isn’t enough. Just as much as we choose a partner for life to marry, we never fully know 100% about who they are, but based on what we’ve learned about them and the faith we have in them to be a forever partner, we choose to do life with them. Is not knowing that the sun, moon, the stars, the wind that blows but we can’t see, the large bodies of water across the world that no man has handmade, the brain functioning the way that it does in intricate detail, and all of the more obvious things in life, not enough for you to have even the conclusion that something way larger than you exists… I hope that you don’t get offended by my thoughts on all this, but I feel this is all a distraction for what I feel you could truly experience when having a real encounter and relationship with the Holy Spirit. He’s real bro and I hope you one day soon surrender to Him and choose to trust Him even in the things that you may not understand.
your first two sentences immediately prove you don’t actually listen to what i say on this channel. so the rest is irrelevant. if you actually listened to this video or even the video i posted before this one, that sentence would actually be quite redundant and unnecessary. but because all yall hear is “he doesn’t believe”, you have pre-made conclusions and responses. it’s really a disservice to me, yourself, your god, and whoever else in your personal life that may have a similar experience.
@@flightsfeelings Joseph, I don’t understand where you are coming from bro. So forgive me if the first two sentences make no sense to you. I think the mere fact of me taking time out of my day to comment here asking a question on your video shows that I actually am at very least TRYING to understand you bro. I definitely listened to your video but didn’t understand completely and knew that if I were to just write in the comment section “what are you talking about?” it would most likely be ignored or dismissed just as this was one. You have to understand that most of us aren’t reading and studying the books and things you are talking about. So we are going to naturally have questions and even misunderstandings about the information you’re sharing. All I know is faith. My comment was intended to be encouraging and possibly be the start of a conversation to help me better understand where you’re coming from, how you got to this place of thought, and what you’re getting after. So no, I’m not doing anyone a disservice to you or anyone by trying to get an understanding. I’m doing the opposite. I have watched your videos on another channel and am still struggling to understand, again what happened, how you got to this place of thought, and what the goal is. If you would rather dismiss me and everyone else that has followed you throughout the years rather than help me understand where you’re coming from, I completely respect your decision.
@@flightsfeelings I genuinely just don’t know what your goal is and wanted to understand that. But it seems like even asking a question comes off as an attack to you and that alone helps no one. Just as much as you would expect those of us who don’t understand to try and meet you where you are, you should be willing to do the same for us who don’t understand.
i have plenty of followers who have stuck around and are here in this comment section. they ask questions that are not piously condescending or presumptuous. i have maintained nearly all of my christian friendships and converse about god regularly with them and we both disagree and offer pushback without condescension. 1. i think one thing that has been most annoying about some interactions with christians online is this perpetual need to let me know that they pity me. and because they can only see it coming from a kind, godly place they lack the self-awareness to see how that would come off in the other direction. 2. your comment said “ I FEEL like your journey won’t lead to a place of complete understanding because life with christ is all about faith.” fam… ive literally said that exact thing over and over on this channel. and i said it on this video. and it said it most overtly in my last video. the entire video about was about the irrationality of faith and how that is very intriguing to me and i’m desiring of that. i said i desire to enjoy that fully literally in this video. this video you’re commenting on is me discussing at length that if i ever came to faith it would be just that: faith. i haven’t said this in coded language. it’s been pretty overt. but when some christians hear me simply asking rational questions they automatically assume i think that i expected or expect to reach “complete understanding” at some point and ive never said that. i’ve consistently said the exact opposite. so forgive me if i see a long comment starting off with a sentence that clearly shows complete misunderstanding or misrepresentation of my experience and be turned off immediately. if you didn’t watch the video or you couldn’t watch it attentively without making presumptions about me, just say that… 3. fam, no you can’t play the uno reverse card and act like im trying to alienate people for simply asking questions. there is not even a single question mark in your entire first comment lol. not one! your whole angle can’t be “i’m just asking questions. you mad at me for asking questions” and you didn’t ask no questions 😂 but plenty of “ i feel… i feel… i feel…”. plenty statements of opinion. you were making assumptions that were opposite of what i’ve already spoke at length about on my channel. lastly, i find it ironic that christians accuse me of needing to have all the rational answers, when i am actually the one trying to sit in the mystery. for you, there is no real mystery. and if god seems so obvious and black and white, then that doesn’t make him all the mysterious. if you choose not to engage in intellectual conversations around faith, that’s fine fam. that’s all you! but there are many godly and kind christian’s who do, so don’t dismiss me or their inquiries just because it’s not concern to you. just watch from a distance.
@@flightsfeelings 1. Prior to your reply I was wondering if “this was all a distraction keeping you from experiencing a deeper intimacy with God that comes from accepting that faith can sometimes means not trying to figure everything out but just trusting.” But I now have a different understanding on where you are and am interested to know and grow more in my own faith, based on your statement: “sitting in the mystery”. I respect that and it totally helps me to see where you are and is now interesting to me. I don’t intend to misunderstand you. I don’t intend to misrepresent your experience. I don’t intend to make presumptions about you. I didn’t understand and I agree my comment comes off very simplified when what you’re journeying through is much bigger than that. So I apologize if what I said came off in those ways. I can only speak from what I know and where I am. I would hope that you would have grace for me in that. 2. If you read my comment again, I did ask a question. I missed adding the question mark. I asked: “Is not knowing that the sun, moon, the stars, the wind that blows but we can't see, the large bodies of water across the world that no man has handmade, the brain functioning the way that it does in intricate detail, and all of the more obvious things in life, not enough for you to have even the conclusion that something way larger than you exists...”. And I now understand your response to that question in your second point. 3. I can honestly say I have never taken time other than now to try and have an intellectual conversation about my faith because I don’t know that I’ve studied enough to even be able to do so. Growing up it was all about have faith and that was that. You were never taught to dissect, inspect, or ask questions about your faith. So I wouldn’t have known where to start in writing that comment. So again, please forgive me if my comment didn’t come across the right way. I can only speak from where I am and what I currently know. I would just ask that next time for someone who may make another comment like mine, understand we’re not as learned in this journey that you’re on. Give us some grace. And that the mere fact that everyone understands and receives information differently are grounds for misunderstanding and misinterpretation. For me, depending on the subject I will need someone to break concepts, ideas, and things to me on a greater level. And you did that. So I genuinely and very much appreciate you for doing that. 4. I don’t intend nor want to dismiss you. I now see how my comment definitely comes off misrepresenting of what you’re sharing and discussing. I appreciate the additional insight you’ve shared about where you are in your journey and helping me to see where I was missing understanding. 5. I’ll end with saying I wasn’t intentionally choosing to not have an intellectual conversation about faith but I believe that it is something I simply would have to first find then gain the tools to do. But I now think (not that you care or are asking) what you’re doing is necessary and would be considered brave. Especially for those who also like me grew up just being told to have faith just because that’s what you do. I think what you’re doing has now challenged me to dig deeper in my faith and ask the necessary questions to have a true understanding of what I believe and why. The comment about sitting in the mystery has stuck with me.
listening back to the video to see what i said that could trigger or put me at enmity at christians lol. i’m thinking like “man i must’ve really overstated my point…” listening back, im actually quite surprised that christians can listen to someone saying “hey i see the beauty of faith. i’d like faith, and even faith in jesus is on the table. it just would look very different and i would have to acknowledge that rational arguments won’t get me across the finish line because after years of careful consideration, history is too gray and rationality too limited.” that’s the the gist of this video. and i said it all in a generally hospitable tone lol how is any of this combative? lol why would you look to argue with someone like this, rather than encourage and ask questions? like… is yall default setting “argue with anyone who doesn’t say the exact things my favorite preacher says?”
It all depends on the person, they’re either listening to understand or listening to respond, when it’s important to do both. I really agree with what you say about stepping out of the rational world of thought in order to come into true faith. Regarding belief around the Trinity, I would say, it’s wrong to deny its existence having already known about it. The people in the Bible times had received the spirit if they were believers of Christ. Hope that makes sense. I really enjoyed this video, didn’t expect to watch the full thing. Everyone is on their own journey, and that’s part of what this life is given to us for. It’s so important that conversations like this can be had.
Funny you mentioned the fine-tuning argument, I was thinking about this a few weeks ago. As a Christian, I believe that God created an ordered world but at the same time, I'm confronted by just how disorderly the world can be. The writer of Ecclesiastes was confronted by this reality too, saying that everything was vanity (or like a puff of smoke; impossible to crab). I appreciate the conversations you have because it challenges me to think about what I believe. It's good to think about what we say we believe, not just blindly defend it because we have chosen a side.
Not every argument is equally grasped or attractive to every person. Usually only those that have a deep interest in the natural sciences are deeply touched by fine tuning/design arguments for a creators existence. For example Richard Dawkins said he thinks (if I’m not mistaken) that fine thing or design is the best theist argument. Anthony Flew became a deist bc of the design argument, etc. etc. Solomon seems more philosophical in nature, I’m not surprised that he isn’t particularly fond of fine tuning. However as far as I’m concerned bc I am to an existent a science nerd, fine tuning is indeed convincing when you deeply study nature and see how interconnected everything is, even the chaos in nature. Different strokes for different folks.
@@justchilling704 You're right. Different strokes for different folks. I think what I was trying to communicate was that fine-tuning has its limits. For example: Why do babies get cancer? Seems like the order is lost when you hear stories like that. Don't you agree? Side note - Part of what the creation story tells us is how God brought about order from the chaos. And how humans undone the order in their "sin". Back to the point - It's not that I don't agree with you about using fine-tuning as a tool to point to God, I just feel it falls short. I've seen the pain of many Christians who are on the brink of losing their trust in God (good people who have had bad things happen to them), and the last thing they want to hear is how the world is fine-tuned.
@@justchilling704 i too am quite a science nerd. especially the natural sciences. between my bookshelves, my audible app and my youtube homepage algorithm you’ll find astrophysics, anthropology, evolutionary biology, cosmology, neuroscience. the point i was trying to make in the video, or should i say the question, is 1. the world may not be as ordered as we first presumed. that may come more to light later. 2. if god can create any type of natural world he wanted to, why would an ordered natural world be something to point to him? he could very well make a world not ordered at all like the one we see. after all, christians believe that there is in fact another world that is not ordered like this one, and it is the supernatural world. if he indeed sustains the world by his own power, why do we need natural order and laws to sustain the world? order, then, only seems to be a convenience, but not a necessity for a world created by god.
@@OnTheEmmausRd I 100% agree. It may have been lost in my comment but my only real point, was that I think certain arguments are more effective on an individual level depending on interest of the person. For example, if I want to convince someone the earth isn’t flat, I’ll try to understand how they think and their interest to best argue for a round earth. I think the best argument against God’s existence is the problem of evil, specifically random natural evils like deformities, childhood cancer etc. I think that’s the evil harder to rationalize or justify (not impossible).
@@flightsfeelings My fault on the presuming, perhaps I was reading my biggest leaning (philosophy/introspection). I actually agree that God could have created any type of world imaginable, the design argument only works if it can be proven that design requires an intelligent agent. It’s what the William Lane Craig types try to prove (as I’m sure you know). So yeah I guess in a way order is something in a theist view that God does for us, not some necessity. But it’s great to know that you’re a science nerd too, for the record I didn’t think you’re adverse to science or don’t like, but from your videos on this channel I definitely see the philosopher in you man.
Thoughts.. (Former Christian here) I think God delights in co-creating with us. Just like we get to choose God or not choose god, we are given the dignity of the rest of that free-will to create whatever we wish to create. I watched your video on why you did and didn’t leave “the faith”. Thank you for sharing. That can’t be easy. My transition was mostly private and still something I grieved. What happened for me was that I found an epiphany and a longing within myself to get rid of the box (Christianity) that I was trying to fit around god. Like I was trying to understand God with the limited capacity of my brain (and religion) when God is actually ever-expansive. I realized that my personal experience of god was most complete when I came with my heart instead of my head. Specifically in worship via song (most beautiful, your cover, being my favorite.. even still 💜) I think because my “Christian” experience was always a lot less about dogma and way more about heartspace encounters, god’s withness.. those of the personally undeniable kind, “leaving the faith” for me was a very natural evolution as the next stage in my experience of god. But then again, I’m a lot more comfortable w mystery than science. Either way, I think it really is all good. And for the record, you don’t owe anybody anything (explanations). And also, I appreciate you sharing as you do. 💜🙏🏽
Don’t be misled my brothers and sisters, I remember well this brother saying negative things about Christianity and he literally denounced himself as a follower of Christ. So my understanding is it’s either you’re team Christ or you’re on the other team. May the good Lord provide you all with wisdom and discernment to be able to stand against those who mislead you. In Jesus’ name. Amen
yes. i have said many critical things about christianity. and i see the ability to see the negative and positive in things as a virtue, not a vice. there’s nothing to mislead anyone here. there’s no gimmick or schtick. christianity is not all bad and not all good either. and that’s okay. such is life.
@@flightsfeelings it’s funny how some UA-camrs do all this hokum just to get views. I get it, you do you. The problem is when one publicly denounce our Lord Jesus Christ, I have no doubt in my mind that they are working for the devil. One can never serve 2 masters, and you know it. If you just do it for UA-cam then be careful yourself too. I am actually one of those people who followed your channel for a longtime and I must say, it was good until when you switched masters
I used to be a Christian too, Alhamdulillah now I am a muslim. I studied christianity, judaism and Islam before reverting. The only one that made sense for me is Islam. Finally my soul is at peace.
Outside the topic of religion we know that in general the truth doesn’t convince or motivate everyone. But in Christianity most believe we need God's Spirit to regenerate us prior to accepting "the truth." I know you're living with a different worldview now, but what are your thoughts on the doctrine of depravity and more so on the person of the Holy Spirit? I.e. would a god/miracle be necessary to bridge the gap between rationality and faith? On a more personal note, do you look back on when you were a Christian and question total [or partial] depravity? If there is a God must he necessarily be the Motivator for good works (i.e. faith, evangelism, prayers, etc)?
i dont think i really have any views about total depravity, other than i know a lot of people use it against me and other non-believers to not have to deal with a lot of our pushback lol " If there is a God must he necessarily be the Motivator for good works (i.e. faith, evangelism, prayers, etc)?" i'm not sure i understand this question. can god be the only motivator for good works in the world even if God exists? is that what you're asking? i think it's clear that humans carry the capacity to do "good" even without acknowledging god, so i dont think god is necessary for that. whether or not those good works have any eternal meaning is different story.
@thshores Thanks for interacting. I don't subscribe to the doctrine of total depravity because I don't think it's congruent with divine hardening (e.g the hardening of Israel against jesus or of pharoah). A lot of your push back is quite good and often warranted. Sorry i wasn't clear in the second question. Of course people of all beliefs do good and righteous acts all the time, regardless of their eternal value. What I was trying to draw out was where you stand on the Holy Spirit. You've shed some light on where you're at with Jesus, but I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on the HS. Especially because I believe you were genuine in your Christian arc and I think the HS was actually working through you in your old videos. I wanted to hear your take on it all -- not to be crude, but what were you on? Or what do you chalk it up to?
i think that kinda goes back to my video “was i ever really a christian?” i believe my efforts were genuine. in the time of being christian, i felt “led by the holy spirit” in various ways and experiences. obviously, without a current confidence in an idea of a “holy spirit”, i’d have different explanations of that experience retrospectively. for now, i chalk it up to genuinely misguided but said a lot of things that i think were genuinely helpful to people and things that i still believe in some figurative sense.
You're setups are always so clean! There's something about this one in particular that I'm really taking a liking to. Do you mind sharing what hard and software you use?
The church added way too much to the belief in God that was not necessary and went to great length to protect some wrong beliefs. That’s why it was and is important for me to read and study the words of Jesus. The timeline the church uses is untrue, if we took Jesus at his word.
Have you read N.T. Wright's 4-part "Christian Origins and the Question of God" series? And have you explored the Catholic or Orthodox traditions? Jonathan Pageau maybe? There is a deep well of spiritual life within the Church of Jesus, friend. Would love to see you continue exploring more Christian avenues of belief and thought!
But when Jesus returns at that time, when yall least expect it You can't say u wasn't warned. It will be no more time for questioning your beliefs bro lol I'm telling u.. U make ur own choices and decisions. That's the freewill that God have given us. But just accept that there's a hellfire and a heaven, and through jesus, we r only saved. If u can at least accept that, then eternity for your soul shouldn't matter even if u decided to choose hell over Jesus..At least be honest about where u r going without him.. Also I'm not tryna start a debate on this, people have their own beliefs about Jesus and most of it is Wrong!. Regardless of what u believe he's still coming back to judge the world and it'll be a scary sight to see for the ones who reject him. Again I'm not tryna debate if u dont believe he's God or not. He's still coming back no matter how many questions u have about the bible or christianity. He's still coming back!.
Right - I've commented on a couple of your videos before Joe (sometimes where I respectfully disagree and i offer my own opinions/insights accordingly). For this one though, it was a treat (Wish I saw this video earlier, but I just had time to find & watch this) - I find myself nodding & agreeing with you wholeheartedly, basically on everything that's been mentioned XD (& i was paying attention throughout - there's really nothing that I disagree on, e.g. on Biblical inerrancy, Mystery vs "Rationality" - i think a balance of both is paying honest respects to the whole ordeal as it is as such, Historicity, etc.). For instance, you mentioned that some really just think - "if you follow this line, then that's where the evidence leads and so it has to be this way", but that they're not really "malicious" in any way. I agree - I think the reformation in the 16th century that birthed Calvinism was a product of a really particular literalist view that is just misguided - for those reasons; so point being nothing malicious in intent (but lest I digress here). I've read somewhere that the Bible is like a bit of a puzzle in some sense - in that you can fit the puzzle pieces to form different pictures (while using all/most of the pieces). But I'd like to think that puzzles could form a more "whole" or complete/harmonious picture (if the analogy, e.g. pieces have details, etc. is carried out fully), or a better "fit". I guess the same applies to life in some sense. Also on the point about being a bit of a "Heretic" - I actually agree. For instance some of my favourite writers actually disregard Church Authority to a certain extent (Orthodoxy). I think this is wise, because humans are fallible, and even if a "right" decision is upheld by one or more - others within the church or places of authority can disagree (and usually decisions are made via votes in certain cases, same for translations of Bible versions & translations of translations, etc.). And I don't think "majority rules" or "religious authority" (though a good & useful thing of course - in a world such as this) is always the best case. To parallel what I've said - in my own introspection (I haven't read anyone making this connection - though honestly it's not that hard to make), 1) I think of the time of Christ: Pharisees vs Jesus, and 2) for example Nicodemus (a Pharisee) was actually drawn to Christ's teaching compared to the others. In such light, I think being a heretic sometimes (contra mainstream views - as such was the time of Christ), is actually more "orthodox" or even prudent. A Funny but quite True Paradox (but not really a Paradox) imo. On Genesis, if i may share a bit, I take the view that it's a myth, and yet that this doesn't undermine the thought that Paul had of Adam (as a 1st century Hellenistic jew), which of course could be a much different view of Adam than those we have as of now (that shouldn't be surprising even as a first-pass thought). There's scholars that hold this view that I find are in a sense prudent - in the sense of being honest and truthful (in such a way that you have described). On Revelation I'm a Partial-Preterist (I believe a prudent reading with the context and the specific language used in mind at the time points to & shows that Nero was the antichrist at the time) - though I think it/that could also foreshadow some future events in our lifetime/after - Because History repeats itself (this I find true, so I'm completely open to the possibility). I think you'd enjoy David Bentley Hart's books & substack - He's incredibly intelligent and well read on many facets (Religions, Art, Language, Music, Philosophy of Mind, Metaphysics, Philosophy, Baseball, Etc.). He is also currently (i believe) on tour in the University of Cambridge giving out Stanton lectures on Christology (which are to be recorded to the best of ability and should be published soon). imo he does more than apologetics, and in terms of apologetics (Out of all that I've come across, he's definitely one of my favourites). I have no issue crediting a lot of my beliefs/knowledge to him, I'm grateful actually for his prudent insight. I also find I can relate to him as always having an aversion to contemporary worship at church services (though it could just be a deficiency in me), though speaking for myself personally - what I feel is that I think in some sense sometimes the music takes away from the words/content (and could even distract via fleeting "feelings" induced by the accompanying music, whereby I think worship should be grasped from the intellect/soul/heart authentically), but truly to each their own. A bit of a "Heretic", but good-natured imo & very intelligent. He also has a new book coming out on Philosophy of Mind, and he's written a book on the Future of Christianity (in terms of how to conceptualise such a concept/what to think of it/make of it - that you may find interesting), and a translation of the NT based off the Greek. You might also enjoy Richard Swinburne on Divine Hiddenness (he also wrote a good book on Revelation/interpreting scripture), which I've read about a while back ago - but I've come to terms with the topic intellectually as of now. :) Also on the point that its not all clear-cut, I totally agree (I think any honest intellectual would agree on this), and so it's an on-going journey (which I think is a good thing in of itself - which ties into the point above) I have some views where I diverge from others I look up to (or moreso I find myself agreeing with different authors of conflicting ideas, regarding different fields) & surely i understand i can't get everything right but nor can anyone else really, but let's just say i'm glad my belief is in Christ that saves & reconciles, and not a specific set of knowledge :) In my humble opinion though, I think its best to leave/allow for certain interpretations on things that are less clear, that such would be a more honest & prudent way, and also to determine or put more weight on the things that matter - e.g. NT Content vs Genesis (but in life and such too, in general imo), e.g. on grounds of relevancy to its respects, etc., and move from there Much Love & Peace :) Just sharing some of my thoughts, mostly I just want to bring up that the points you brought up are all fair & good P.s.: I read somewhere that this was just you being upset at God, but I really don't see that at all LOL - if anything this was pure honesty and intellectual curiosity, which is refreshing Bless You & Thank You for this Video Bro
I keep asking Jesus if it’s okay if I don’t know for sure. Is that enough? Can I have the faith of a mustard seed and still say I don’t know? And even then, I’m still talking to Jesus like he’s in the room with me. It’s hard to walk away. You’d think it would be easy cause on the other side is living my life however whichever way I want to. I should feel free. Instead I feel depressed, and a little betrayed. I think my next step now is to figure out why Christianity has survived beyond ethnic and regional boundaries? How did we get from a few 12 or so to millions. From both an academic and historical standpoint but I’m also not going to discount the experiential. But I’m mostly interested in the Pauline and apostolic ministries in that first century. Why were first century Jews willing to believe in Jesus as the Messiah at great cost to their lives in first century Rome? Were there pressures other than simply a belief in a resurrection that made “Christianity” attractive? Jesus came at a time where people were just as hostile to his claim to be the messiah, I mean, he was crucified. John was beheaded. Paul was jailed and murdered. So it’s a misconception to believe that people of that time were more ready to believe in Jesus than we are cause we’re just free critical thinkers and they weren’t. I would actually argue the opposite. As difficult as I’m finding it to walk away, I mean the leap they would’ve had to make. Anyway, I’m talking to myself but if you have any resources to share, please do.
no expert here. just some ideas that you can chase down in your free time. NONE of the things im going to say by default completely rule out supernatural intervention through these events. but it's also not all that difficult to connect some dots without invoking the supernatural: 1."Why were first century Jews willing to believe in Jesus as the Messiah at great cost to their lives in first century Rome?" this was an apologetic question that i sort of assumed the premise to be true: first century jews were willing to believe at great cost to their lives. far as we know, christianity was only outlawed in Rome for about ten years and this was in the 3rd century, right before Constantine inversely made it the official religion. though there may have been some persecution of christians in the first century, there actually isn't any evidence of widespread persecution of christians, especially for their specific claim in the resurrection. we have no evidence that Nero was looking deconvert Christians. Rome occupied Judea, and the jesus movement wasn't the only jewish-offshoot that was going on at the time. Nero's persecution of Christians was a political one. that's one idea you can chase down. but in any case, people dying for deeply held beliefs is not uncommon. 2. of course, that may lead to "what about those who claimed to be eyewitnesses to the resurrection? why would they lie?" this is largely an assumption among apologists. as you go on the sincere journey of trying to answer this question, you may soon realize that it may be quite difficult to find historical evidence (including the bible) of christians in the first century who claimed to be actual eyewitnesses to the resurrection (not second-hand story) and chose to die rather than recanting belief in jesus example: Paul is not an eyewitness to the resurrection. jesus came to him in a vision, and even Paul was unsure if it was the physical appearance or just a vision (2 Cor 12:2) there is no account, even in the bible, that tells us the nature of his death or why he died. all we have is church tradition. most scholars believe he was killed but the exact details are unknown. Peter and Paul were likely killed around the time Nero was blaming Christians for a large fire that started in Rome. political. nothing to do with a resurrection. even if we attribute the authorship of 1/2 Peter and book of James to Peter and James respectively (which many scholars don't) we still have no first hand account of the resurrection from James or Peter. only a claim to seeing the transfiguration during his life. If you attribute Revelation to John (again many scholars don't), he only attests to seeing Jesus in heaven. outside of the gospels, and even including Acts, we have very little information on the lives and deaths of the other apostles. they seem to all but vanish from historical sources . 3. Jesus was crucified for claiming to be king of the jews. to the jews, this may have been a theological problem. for rome, this was a political problem (even the gospels attest that many of his disciples understood him to be ushering in a physical kingdom rather than just a spiritual one), and jesus is not the only insurrectionist who was crucified in this time. 4. "So it’s a misconception to believe that people of that time were more ready to believe in Jesus than we are" It actually isn't. Did they have a mature conception of what a resurrection was prior to Jesus' death? no. But as apocalyptic Jews, they had a few things: 1. The deep belief that Jesus was the Messiah and he would usher in a new kingdom 2. Unlike us today, they had no conception of a disembodied existence after death. 3. They were not* expecting him at all to die, as he would usher in this new kingdom. But he did die. 4. as few as one or two of them could have sincere visions of Jesus after his death (people have visions all the time), but a vision that must reconcile with their concept of a fully embodied existence and king. pull up any article you'd like, and you'll see in today's times there are many people convinced that they saw their dead loved one. the difference is, we have a cultural context that allows for disembodied existence. apocalyptic jews did not. just because something isn't a fully matured idea doesn't mean the pieces for it aren't there for it, given cultural context. 5. let's not also assume that christianity then immediately exploded in Rome in the first century. Christians remained a relatively small obscure jewish sect among other jewish sects for quite some time. in the centuries to come long after the death of Jesus, it grew in popularity, particularly among the lower class because of its emphasis on care for the poor and its deemphasis on class stratification. eventually leading to the adoption by the Emperor Constantine in the 300's, making it the state sponsored religion. And when you've got the largest imperial power in the world endorsing your religion, the sky is the limit. again, NONE of the things by default completely rule out supernatural intervention throughout. but it's also not all that difficult to connect some dots without invoking the supernatural.
”For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.“ 1 Corinthians 13:12-13 NIV This is what has helped me on things I don’t know! If Paul who had received a revelation so great that he got a thorn in his flesh to prevent him from being conceited, says he doesn’t know about God’s mysteries fully what makes us think we can ever know, but one promise stands!! That at that glorious day when we stand before him we shall fully know and understand all. And in the meantime what he asks us to hold firm to us faith, hope and love. And if we do that it’s all good. Love you fam ❤️❤️ stand firm in him ❤️
I appreciate your perspective. I agree that we (Christians) should interrogate the faith that we claim to have. Whilst I disagree with some of your premises, I do think that they provide interesting points to be explored. I pray that as you navigate Christianity outside of faith in Jesus, you'll find your way back to Jesus.
Agree with points raised on honesty when analysing the rationality of things in Christiandum and thanks for highlighting the Author mentioned. This is always an on the edge of your seat, mind blowing learning experience. Appreciate your shared thoughts! I'm just in the state of how have we as "Christians" (myself included) been bamboozled by the current Political state of Israel, formed in 1948 vs. The Israel/ (Palestine), in the "correct" Biblical historical context. I'm investigating this. Any help?
i’m no expert and this has nothing to do with my personal political stance on israel…but i believe it starts with dispensationalist eschatology. john darby introduces this in the 1800’s and it’s the first time ever in christian history that christian’s start believing in the now popular idea of a “rapture”. and this theology centers israel, which did not currently exist, in the end times narrative. the nation of israel made in 1948 was made PURELY on political reasons and even partly supported by ANTI-SEMITIC ideas - i.e. “no one wants jews in their country so yes please let them have their own country so we don’t have to deal with them”. christians who have a belief that a literal war surrounding the nation of israel is necessary for the return of jesus saw being on the side of israel was a THEOLOGICAL issue, not simply a sociopolitical issue. again, something you will find nowhere in christian thought until the 1800’s.
@@flightsfeelings WOW, that's alot for me to feast on! I've raised this with my Mentor and can't wait to sit this one and flesh out with her. THANKS so much! And yep, 100% agree - it's NOT personal on my end either re: the state of Israel. It just kept me awake a few weeks back on this one. Thanks Joe!
ok so you should not close the curtain after showering. that allows air to flow so the shower doesn’t stay moist. also, spraying an after-shower anti-mildew spray is super helpful.
Have you considered Seminary or looking into Systematic Theology? You mentioned Keurcoguard so I am assuming you’ve done your due diligence. I’d also suggest if you haven’t already look into “The Spirit of Intimacy” by Sobonfu Some. Also Howard Thurman “Meditations Of The Heart” is great! There are soooooo many awesome theological commentaries that address and provide perspective on what you shared! I’m happy to share some books with you!
i went to seminary lol didn’t graduate but i did go. Soren Kierkegaard wasn’t a really systematic theologian tho. very much a philosopher and writer just influenced by his theology. but yes familiar with different approaches to systematic theology. i am subtly addressing systematic theology through many of these videos. theological commentaries, though i would never be close to exhausting all perspectives, this is not something new for me. this has been a 15 year long journey. i think my experience with systematic theology is partly why i am now adverse to it. as alluded to in this video, i am interested in the mystery of faith. western systematic theology by default largely attempts to tie up the mystery. this is where the earliest split in the church happens between the western rationalism of catholicism (which the protestants flowed from) and mystery of eastern orthodoxy. i dont think i would benefit from going to seminary at this point in my life, especially ones that require statement of faiths. i’m an artist lol a singer and creative. i will continue to be a serious enthusiast.
Just listened to Rhett from Ear Biscuits relating his story at 4 years since his public declaration on 'exiting Christianity'. This was two months ago. I mention it because I think it will be interesting to you, Joe, and to you, reader of comments.
the book in the video for sure! The Historical Christ and the Theological Jesus by Dale Allison. also, another popular non-christian new testament scholar, Bart Erhman: “Did Jesus Exist?”
I think you could really benefit from looking into seminary. Welsey Theological Seminary, Union Theological Seminary, Yale Theological Seminary, & Princeton Theological Seminary, & Duke Divinity
hey jo, thanks for this video. Kierkegaard is my philosophy hero, and i echo everything everybody has said. these videos are helpful. my wife introduced me to you. she loves your old content and you helped teacher her The Way when she was a young christian. now shes still a Christian and was devastated by your original coming out video, but truthfully i hope she comes to see how honest youre being here. at least you're honest, man. most christians arent. If i can take the liberty to share, i wanna give you a piece to chew on that comes to me from G. K. Chesterton by way of a Hegelian philosopher known as Slavoj Zizek. Zizek is a Marxist, he did a debate with Peterson a few years back, it was wild to watch and it helped deprogram my far right wing bias. but in the middle of the debate, Zizek explains, borrowing from the climax of Chesterton's masterwork Orthodoxy, that on the cross, when Jesus says the aramaic line from matthew thats translated as, "father why have you forsaken me?" in this moment, God himself becomes an atheist. Zizek puts this in Hegelian terms by saying, "you become free when you realize that separation from God is inscribed upon divinity itself." This is getting way into real heresy, and even full preterism and the idea that this life is the new earth and the end of history. There is nobody coming to save us now, so to speak. but anyway... I call this doctrine, "Chesterton's escape hatch". It, along with my beautiful wife, have kept me in the faith for a few years now, and I believe it is an excellent remedy for the material reality that modernism exposed us to. Satre says in his pamphlet about Humanism that, as an atheist, he doesnt feel the same despair that Christians do at the thought of their being no God. Hes special. Maybe youre like me, and like i said i love Kierkegaard too... I remain a christian not because of the truth values --- it could all be made up --- but because I love Jesus. in the words of Peter, "where else will we go?" So anyway, again, this was long and thanks for letting me share. I hope this is read and I hope it helps somebody. peace be with you all!
man. you seem like a really interesting person. thanks for this comment. i’m somewhat familiar with Slavoj. not gonna lie, i actually felt like i would LOVE him but it’s so difficult to get past his incessant sniffing and wiping his nose mixed with the very thick accent lol. it takes such concentration but maaaan he’s sharp. i shall give him another shot. “when god became an atheist” is my kinda heresy lol when it comes to despair around god, i have found despair just as deeply as i have when i was with god. but this is really good stuff to chase down and think on. thanks for chiming in. grace to you on your journey max.
@@flightsfeelings ua-cam.com/video/ukRYFoPCwEQ/v-deo.html there's a synthwave track of the clip from the debate. there are a lot of youtubers on philosophy side of YT that deal with zizek, including Sisyphus55 and Julian DeMuertos. Julian has a couple videos explaining zizeks "Christian atheism". zizek has also wrote a book with that title coming out this year. I've tried reading zizek in the past 📚 but his style is dense and im not familiar enough with continental philosophy yet. but better yet to go back to the source. G.K. Chesterton's Orthodoxy is short. ten chapters, a couple hundred pages. thats the book I wish I had been given before I became disillusioned with evangelicalism and started the ball rolling toward skepticism. im not trying to bring you back into the faith or anything, im just excited 😁 zizek is fun to share because he's one of the few atheist philosphers who is willing to discuss Christian metaphysics in a meaningful, insightful, modern way. my atheist friends don't care and my Christian friends pee their pants out of fear, so there's nobody to talk to about it. but I like his ideas, for personal reasons, and it gets me goin. thanks again for letting me share. zizek is a living legend of philosophy, but I totally understand he's hard to listen to.
So as I’m on the way to work listening to this video I see a billboard that’s says “Without reasonable doubt, Jesus is Alive.” Because our doubt is ABSOLUTELY reasonable. Faith can be illogical&give cult vibes. We shouldn’t follow anything blindly. Question everything. I believe Yaweh enjoys your desire for truth and curious mind.
Really honest reflections here man! You ever read some Dostoyevsky? He’s a good go to for existentialism! The Karamazov Brothers is really good! Tome of a read though
You said correct you if you’re wrong so…. You have faith that you’re gonna wake up in the morning, faith that when eat food your intestines will digest it, faith that your camera worked for this video….. but faith is illogical? I hope I’m not misunderstanding your conclusion….. but if I am, you’re making your own version of God instead of having faith in the absolute truth of who God is….. which would be illogical in and of itself. It’s like not having faith that the man who made the instruction manual of a table or your car is the creator of it and everyone around is telling “Nope, that’s him”. It’s either everyone’s in a cult, or I’m in a matrix.
yes because because believing a camera will turn on is the same as believing all the claims of the bible. you’re so smart and right. i don’t even think this warrants a real response from me because your insight is so wise and inscrutable.
Ephesians 4:29 ESV Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. A few years ago, the most googled question about him was 'how old is Joseph Solomon?' he's not a 'young boy' but a mature man who has wrestled for YEARS and is very well versed in this conversation. Do you have no empathy? do you think this is a game for him or he wants clout? Do you know how much it would have cost him to go through this process? If you don't agree, move on. But to say something so patronizing and to reduce all his work to some 'teenage angsty phase' is completely beyond me. Honestly, it's embarrassing. I fear what atheists and agnostics will take away from this comment section...
@@chikineeter I only said he will get over this phase of his life. If he once tested the goodness of the Lord and strongly stood for it he will find his way back. He doesn’t seem entirely lost as far as am concerned.
Joseph, one thing I will commend on you is stepping down from ministry while you are deconstructing your faith. It was very bold of you especially since you were making good money from it.
A lot of things man has instituted through traditions (eg creeds of various denominations), even making it the end all be all if to one is or is not one of the faith. Man can overcomplicate things, but ultimately, and it made me so stressed and confused when I became a believer. But through growth God helped me understand the Bible makes it simple. The whole duty of man is to fear Elohim and keep His Torah, Ecclesiastes 12:13. Yeshua said we will know who a person is by their fruit in Matthew 7:15-20. We don't have to overcomplicate things or view things through a greek mindset that has been kindv'e perpetuated into our belief systems. We are to believe in the Fathers Son and love God and others through keeping His Torah (1 John 3:23, 1 John 5:3). A thing that helps a lot in my study is examining the Hebrew context of the Scriptures, and examining the Bible as one cohesive book rather New Testament vs Old Testament. In the Torah a testimony is established on the account of two or three witnesses, and I know some people are skeptical on how to understand Sculpture, and what is the correct application/interpretation of the Scripture, but something that helps me in my study is when I'm having two or 3+ witnesses of that interpretation consistently in the Scriptures. I say this just in case it may help you in the future in your studies and gaining understanding. Thank you for your transparency with us!!
It's me again Margaret. Still to get to Keikegard. He on my TBR list. I read novels as a pastime but Dostoyevsky's works are dense and require commitment to get past the threshold where enough steam has been gathered, in my experience.
I think all of your rational arguments about the validity of Scripture will remain standing as long as you don’t take into consideration that “All scripture is God-breathed…” (2 Tim.3:16). A core belief of Christianity and faith is exactly the fact that the rational mind can only go so far. To believe in God, is to accept that He is far too great to be understood and explained by our rational, limited mind and experience.
“a core belief is that the rational mind can go so far…” i swear yall don’t actually listen to what i be saying in these videos. yall watch like two minutes and then just wanna disagree. it’s so obvious.
Did you ever end up looking into other Christian expressions? My search for Christ led me to leaving Western Evangelicalism and going East. The mysticism of Eastern Orthodoxy and our choice of not trying to pack everything into legal language is what showed me that mysticism is needed in life. Whether or not you return to the faith, I do think it is necessary for these conversations to be had so that we are constantly challenged to review and investigate why we believe what we do.
I would love to have a conversation with you to just really get into why you chose your path away from the truth. I’m definitely a firm believer in Jesus Christ. And by the way, everything biblical is factual and evident. Especially Jesus the Messiah…let’s link
There are people that speak/read/write Aramaic and who also fluently read/write/speak in English to this day. I’m pretty sure there would have been whistle blowers if translations were all that different. People get caught up in trivial things. Anyway, I hope you come back to the faith and believe in Jesus as the son of God. Hopefully, the Holy Spirit convicts you. It may already be happening since you’re taking the time out to make this video. You’d realize you are like the prodigal son. Also, if you were truly a believer you would know that you can ask God to show you himself. It’s worth it and I think he loves you that much to show you. ❤❤❤
but i literally said in this video that even knowing this about translations, you could believe in inerrancy of the bible. that was me intentionally not making a big deal about this point. i had other much more important points. maybe it’s possible you’re the one who got caught up in trivial things? “also if you were truly a believer you would know that you an god to show you himself” you think i was a christian decades and never thought to ask that? lol yes i asked and pleaded with god many times before. now i am here.
@@flightsfeelings I didn’t say that “you” get caught up in trivial things. I said “people”. But you did say there is a translation issue. It’s still a trivial point. The Bible is inspired through Gods spirit. And still the word of God is also alive and powerful. It’s sharper than the sharpest two-edge sword, cutting between, soul and spirit, between bone and marrow. It exposes the inner most thoughts and desires. My honest opinion is that the spirit is trying to convict you. The Bible tells us that in the last days some will turn away from the faith and follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. Anyway, I am just a vessel so I’m just here to be used by God. Nothing more nothing less.
i’m only 6 minutes in and i have a question. do you think that love is rational ? isn’t that an argument of the christian faith? that god is love. so does that mean that god CAN exist within a disordered system? also, you’re work is like phd level! very insightful and thought provoking!!
its very interesting to see the shift from your earlier apologetic stance to your now very philosophical almost mathematical worldview. These days you appear hyper-rational as before you were more apologetic/unscientific perhaps at the heart of this shift lies the reasons behind your faith complex. Addressing rationality, consider greek LOGOS - in the beginning was the word (logos) and the word was God. further greek supplication of logos is that it is the foundation for logic and reasoning, hence LOGOS corresponding with LOGIC
well i think people may make the mistake of oversimplifying people’s experience because of certain snapshots. i’ve been guilty of this too. but this isn’t a shift, per se. the thoughts i share today aren’t much different than thoughts ive had for over a decade, just more developed. people would ask me “was this more of a logical decision or an emotional decision?” and i’d quickly say, “Both!”. it’s not a faith complex but faith (or lack thereof) is complex. i know that im too dynamic of a human (as we all are) to think my grand decisions lay in one single basket or the other.
@@flightsfeelings My apologies for the oversimplification. I would agree that "developed" is the better word, what i was trying to say in my earlier message is that you appear more logically refined. Now i haven't watched every video but i recall - approximately 6 years ago in my college dorm how pivotal your "shadow of a doubt" was for me during my own sort of intellectual faith struggle. Believers tend to disregard logic,/consider it the work of the "enemy", i ee this as a fundamnetal fundamentalist problem, in no way shape or form Christianity, more so human struggle. Years later i too took a departure from more so Church culture/ fundamentalist dogma instead of Christian doctrine. As you said part of you still very much believes in Jesus, i imagine this is testament to the notion that Christian doctrine holds core existential truth. i guess what im trying to say is thanks, thanks for being so raw and honest.. on the internet at that. shadow of a doubt is still hands down one of my favorite.
I love your covers, I always check your channel for new covers. However, I have to be brutally honest with you, you've left Christianity but you're still getting clout off the name "Jesus". You can't claim to leave a girl and constantly talk about her, especially if it's in the negative way. It's just a sign you haven't moved on🤷🏾 Jesus is real and that's a fact you'll never deny. You're mostly led by your feelings which are supported by books written by atheists to comfort your perspectives. Whether you follow Christ or leave him, He'll still be God
and i could say christians are mostly led by feelings which are supported by books written by christians. and what would that prove? but the funny part about you saying “supported by books written by atheists” is that the main book talked about in this particular video is from a christian author. and the last video that i discussed a book at length was ALSO from a christian author, both of whom i had very much to agree with on. so fam just say you’ve already formed an opinion of me without actually paying attention. and that’s okay. you don’t have to pay attention. this is a small channel with very long videos. just don’t pretend to have a read on someone, that’s all. do i have permission to also be brutally honest? i gotta call bs. y’all keep saying “you’re not over it if you keep talking about it”, yet don’t follow your own logic. y’all say yall tired of hearing me talking about yet yall keep coming to watch me talk about it lol so in the same respect, if you really believe what i’m saying is a bunch of feelings and clout chasing, just don’t watch fam. it’s really that easy.
i disagree that it’s a sign he hasn’t moved on. regardless of his current position, this was all apart of his journey. he can speak on his journey. it has largely shaped who he is today. he never speaks on the topic of Jesus bitterly or angrily, just simply sharing his experience & that’s cool.
I don’t believe you never knew Jesus. You’re allowing Satan to take you on his journey. I’ll pray that you’ll be guided to accept Christ as your savior.
@@flightsfeelings honesty, but is it true? You could be honest but just wrong. So where do that gets you and people that adhere to it? It’s like you are missing the one key element of being a believer an that’s Faith. Seem to be leaning unto your own understanding. When God said Mark 10:25 states, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” He was not just talking about material possessions but being rich in any area, so much so, that you lean on that before Him. Basically that’s your comfort, your backbone and ultimately your God. I pray you seek Him diligently and wholeheartedly. It’s interesting and funny how we use other books which have other authors to teach us about The Book with The Author. Not saying there is no merit or value doing further research but do you need it? I would argue no. It gives you all you NEED. Need being the key word. Now it’s time to trust Him.
Nah brother. I’m minutes in and you’re only confusing yourself even more. I wish I could sit and talk to you. You seem smart, but comments won’t do it.
lol yall be so self-unaware. fam be honest with yourself. ask yourself… why would anyone wanna talk to someone whose knee-jerk reaction to me is to say “you were never a christian.” ? be for real. there’s nothing discuss. you talk about intellectual vs heart and yet all your words to me are all intellectual jabs and no heart. why would i want to talk to you?
Will comment as I go! About here [[ 6:35 ]] in the video. Quick thought: The idea that the Earth is *perfectly* positioned for life to exist is a bit of a false claim IMO. The Earth’s orbit is elliptical, so it changes all the time. It’s closest to the sun in January and farthest from the sun in July. It’s a bit of a technicality, but I’ve heard people really, really stress the absolute *precision* of the distance of the Earth as an argument for fine-tuning and it simply doesn’t hold water if we’re looking THAT closely.
Listen, if we’re a REAL apostate, the Bible says that it is impossible to be renewed unto repentance. So either there was no REAL relationship with Jesus, or we’re damned.
researching pageau currently. the only credibility stamp i can find so far is jordan peterson. people pointing out lack of cross referencing and bibliography. doesn’t seem scholarly. i’m not currently interested in non-scholarly interpretations of genesis. your counter thoughts? may i ask what you found intriguing or persuasive about his writing?
@@flightsfeelings yeah I really don't think it's meant to be a scholarly book, so perhaps it's not what you want. Still, I think it's worthwhile because it personally affected me. Individuals who have a natural creative instinct (myself included) have an easier way of understanding elements of the world when laid out in a "story" format. I think a lot of the modern apologetics really abandon the mystery of the story we're all living in, trying to prove elements of the text with rationalism/reason. But at the heart of this all is really a story. (And stories can be truer than reality.) We even view our lives in this way but typically don't take the time to realize it until something major occurs. (For example, you don't take the time to write the best man speech 'til there's a wedding about to happen... or the euology until there's a funeral.) M. Pageau does a REALLY good job in that book of laying out how the ancients understood things in this fashion much more up front than we acknowledge today. I could write a lot about this but the long and short of it is: if you're tired of materialism, it's a really good read. I'll end with a quote from the beginning of it: "The story of the Garden of Eden describes a state of innocence, where humans occupied a central place in a relatively natural environment. This naive perspective conveniently provided humans with a full understanding of their role in the universe and the spiritual purpose of existence. However, the garden was also a sheltered place; it was a tiny portion of a much greater world. Therefore, as soon as humans looked beyond the limits of the garden, their 'eyes were opened' to a strange universe devoud of spiritual meaning. They 'knew that they were naked' and saw their previous bubble had been shattered, all attempts at 'covering it up' were in vain, and humans had no choice but to wander in a meaningless universe until they return to the ground. At the meta-cognitive level, the narrative of the fall perfectly matches the plight of humanity since the scientific revolution. So, even though these technical discoveries have locally debunked traditional cosmology, they have ironically proven its significance at a higher level. In general, the narratives of the Bible are about humanity's conflicted attempts to reconcile spiritual truth with physical reality in the hopes of acquiring divine knowledge. For that reason, the ancient stories of the Bible will survive and eventually transcend any scientific discovery, as long as we recognize that level of interpretation." (I should note as well that Matthieu, the author, is the brother of Jonathan Pageau who runs the Symbolic World youtube channel. I had the pleasure of seeing both Jonathan and Jordan Peterson in person back in February- really interesting discussions.)
Oh I'm definitely a heretic lol. I've said that for a while. Do I believe many of the stories in the bible are historical? Not necessarily. I am a trinitarian. No. Do I believe the bible is infallible? No. Do I believe John wrote the book of john himself? Not convinced. But am I still a stonch follower of christ? Reading my bible everyday, praying everyday, fasting, fleeing from sin? As much as I possible can. Heretic through and through. And my life is better for it
@@flightsfeelings Nah I feel you. The main reason I didn't deconvert fully (and stay deconverted) is because I got the details in bits and pieces over time. I don't believe because I know everything is necessarily true. I have looked through the history. Things don't add up. Stories don't line up with fact. Things are off in places. From adam and eve, noah, exodus. I mean we can go on. I think I could make many christians deconvert. But those things are just not why I believe anymore. And I'll be in church praying and speaking in tongues on sunday and through out my week lol. Something about spirtuality. Something about prayer. Something about it. Seems a necessary tenet to our human existence and to mine. So I choose to believe and I have found peace
Jesus is the only God that spoke in the spiritual World and then came and took on flesh and born in the physical world to prove that it was him the whole time, all those other so called gods can only speak in the spiritual world
Joseph, I say this not to antagonize you, genuinely just curious of your thoughts. I’ve questioned my faith for a solid 6 months, of course I’ve stumbled upon the likes of Bart Ehrman, and other objectors just like you have. Now to the question, Do you not think that IF there is a personable God that has revealed himself to humanity in a more relatable way, that Jesus is quite literally the best and only candidate? I think so. I’ve wrestled with similar thoughts that you have had. Looking at the fact that Christianity was and is the religion that has quite literally altered humanity in terms of literature, culture, language, music, history, science, all of these things at least give a credence of divine intervention whether Jesus did the things written in the book about him or not. Like you said maybe being a “heretic” ain’t that bad. 😂
Joseph, did Christianity hurt you? Genuine question. Because you come off very defensive in the comments and it seems like you’re mad at a God who you don’t believe exists.
hello alysa! because this is a common misguided assumption about me, what i’m about to say in response will be a bit straightforward. and because text makes emotion vague, i ask that you for a moment imagine that i am simply speaking matter-of-factly and not combatively. could you point me to specific comments on this video that has language that suggests anger at god? and i mean plural, because you seem to suggest that my disposition is a pattern and not just an isolated comment. could you point me to a specific quote(s) from this video that has language that suggests anger at god? i don’t believe that if i defend my position, that im somehow automatically “defensive”. defending ≠ defensive. in my videos, i have consistently critiqued and praised christian faith. i critiqued and praised christians. i even say in this video, that you’re currently commenting on, that im genuinely interested in faith but express where the rational hangups are. if you believe where i currently stand is only hurt, then im convinced you dont actually watch, listen to or are willing to understand my videos. and thats fine if you dont, but its not fine to pretend you have taken time to honestly understand my position. if you dont know how to or dont wish to actually thoughtfully engage with intellectual conversation surrounding christian faith, then thats also fine. but its disingenuous and, dare i say, emotionally and intellectually lazy to simply say “oh he’s just hurt”. so, i ask to you… did i hurt you? genuine question. because you come off very defensive in the comments and it seems like you’re mad at me for not believing god exists.
@@flightsfeelings I hear you. You’re streaming your consciousness and you should have the space to do so. No, you haven’t hurt me and no I’m not mad at you at all. I didn’t simply say “oh he’s hurt” though, I asked if you were so that I didn’t jump to assumptions. At any rate, thank you for responding, and so thoughtfully at that. I’ve been following for a while so it’s nice to have a brief moment of connection.
@alysarenee3915 respectfully, even the question alone is not neutral. “did christianity hurt you?” is asked because you assumed my language in the comments suggested anger. at best, in question form, it is passive aggressively suggesting what is being asked. which is further shown in the next sentences which were not questions. you made a suggestion and ultimately an assumption. “you come off very defensive in the comments and it seems like you’re mad at a god who you don’t believe exists.” that’s not a question. that’s an assertion. it is an assumption you jumped to. stand on what you said tho fam. or if you believe it was wrong, you can openly backtrack it/apologize but let’s not feign ignorance fam. you made an unfounded assumption and i challenged it. it happens. i appreciate the engagement. if you wish to continue to engage, all i ask is that you enter conversation in good faith and curiosity.
Im sorry Joseph, ive been following your journey just because im nosey i guess. But stating "you dont know" on topic that are critical to peoples eternal life sounds careless. Why do i say so? Well you claim to be "leading people through their journey out of the belief" yet you know not enough to be sure that you might be wrong.
how is it careless to be honest? if after all, you truly don’t know, i believe it’s careless when people pretend to act like they do. my “i don’t know” isn’t “i haven’t cared to even think or read through these things”. my “i don’t know” is “i’ve read and thought a lot and continue to do so, and i truly don’t know.” maybe one day i’ll have more certainty, and if so, i’ll probably share that and why. but the point of this channel is show where i currently am, not where i want to pretend i am. “leadership” on this channel is not simply “knowing” the way, but being bold enough to be honest when you don’t know. i wish more of your “leaders” would do the same.
@@flightsfeelings You're right. In fact, I think one of the reasons people are leaving the church is because of leaders' unwillingness to admit their uncertainty about certain issues or questions within the church.
@@flightsfeelings i hear you joseph, and the intention behind my comment was coming from a friendly confrontation. That being said.. we all have "i dont know"s, but i think what set us apart is knowing the magnitude behind every message we deliver. Theres no problem sharing your journey as you do matter and your story matters, however i think because of what you do and the amount of influence you have, you should be careful. Your videos are filled with insight and i guess encouragement to others who are journeying through their doubt but again i think it would be wise to really key on these "i dont knows" cause as you know and as u mentioned - Jesus is the key figure to the faith, and everything leads to Him and the end reveals Him. Anyways, again, this is a friendly confrontation sir, i dont mean no harm. I continue to watch your videos regardless. Thanks
well i’m not a christian. i’m not trying to get anyone to heaven (or into hell for that matter). and if jesus is so important, then it makes willingness to admit ignorance and error even more important. my channel first and foremost is not to encourage people who doubt, but offer encouragement to those who have already left or are on their way out, and catharsis for myself. christians, though they may be plentiful in the comments and though i may address them, are not my primary audience. as said in this video, the unexamined christ is not worth having. if you are willing to put him on the altar, you may get him back.
@@flightsfeelings i hear you brother. And i appreciate you for giving me the audience btw. Thank you! "The unexamine Christ is not worth having" and i totally agree, my response to that however (as a christian) is from scripture where Christ says to Thomas who didnt want to believe unless He examines the wounds - , “Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed. Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:29 And i dont think this was anyway trying to disregard examining things and even these accounts found in scripture but going through them with the mind of - I know not but im willing to believe if i do see the provided evidence goes a long way. and i know God is good enough to reveal (no disrespect cause i did follow ur journey so im in no way direspecting your journey while u were still figuring and seeking things out) Anyways, this is from a christian so my response and reaction might somewhat be biased according to you.
This is your honest opinion, but is it true? You could be honest but just wrong. So where do that gets you and people that adhere to it? It’s like you are missing the one key element of being a believer an that’s Faith. Seem to be leaning unto your own understanding. When God said Mark 10:25 states, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” He was not just talking about material possessions but being rich in any area, so much so, that you lean on that before Him. Basically that’s your comfort, your backbone and ultimately your God. I pray you seek Him diligently and wholeheartedly. It’s interesting and funny how we use other books which have other authors to teach us about The Book with The Author. Not saying there is no merit or value doing further research but do you need it? I would argue no. It gives you all you NEED. Need being the key word. Now it’s time to trust Him.
Exit? Bro… I respect it. Respect it as in, God allows such decision. But, what kills me about the “I used to be Christian” folks is this strange idea that you have millions of years to figure it out. As if, the odds are on your side to live another 40-50 years. Then what? Your rendering of your “reading” gave you some deep insight as to what would be negotiated in front of God if the odds of Pascal’s wager don’t favor you. You got that much time?…Do the unbiased studying. That’s the problem with folks and their belief. They will claim to have studied it all but can’t conceptualize much of what is read. You read (whatever it was) and conveyed, “I am no longer a Christian”. Paul says you never were a Christian according to this stance. You only chose mammon brother. Your decision doesn’t substantiate the truth. It just sheds light on a banality with atheism, or any other religion. You don’t really know Jesus, despite the mountain of evidence. There is more evidence for Jesus than any other figure in history. So, I’ll listen to the rest of your video, but I can almost guarantee, I’ve heard it before. Why? It’s not an intellectual issue, it’s a heart issue. No matter how calm you sound in front of that camera…. I’ll be praying. I’ve seen people come back into the fold. But, I’m sure I won’t hear anything new because I’ve listened and studied both sides; belief and disbelief and it always goes back to the heart.
“you don’t have millions of years”. so you suggest that the fear of losing time should force me to continue “believing” something i’m not convinced of? Pascal’s wager is your suggestion? this is a false dichotomy cooked with presuppositions. i’m not an atheist. not a staunch materialist. “there is more evidence for jesus than any figure in history”. this is categorically false lol. jesus being the most talked about figure today is not the same as him being the most historically documented person in history. historical evidence of what early followers thoughts of jesus is not the same as having evidence of the historical jesus himself. if you “listened and survived both sides” and not simply your favorite apologists, you’d know what we can know about the historical christ is actually quite obscure. to assert otherwise is a statement of large faith. give a list of all the testimonies from direct eyewitnesses of jesus life, death or resurrection. it’s not paul. i’ll wait… what we have are shared memories. and i said in this video that i don’t have an issue with this. there’s clearly something we can know and believe about jesus. i don’t have an issue with this. christian’s married to having inerrant direct eyewitness evidence of jesus are married to a dogma, not jesus. if you listened to my video and the one before this, i repeatedly assert that belief in jesus is a matter of faith and not simply rational arguments. christian’s know this and yet also want to pretend as tho “mountains of evidence” somehow magically turn into faith. if yall weren’t always in war mode to disagree with any and everyone, you’d realize there’s actually plenty room for fruitful and even agreeable conversation. “paul says you never were a christian” that’s great for paul. happy for him. if you’re actually concerned about the state of my soul, then pray. engage in good faith convo. if you’re only concerned about being right, then in your mind you’re already right. i’m genuinely confused as to why christian’s think telling me over and over that i was never christian is supposed to make me wanna be a christian again. but again, if your goal is not actually to see me come to faith, then what’s the point of this whole comment? i haven’t disparaged those who have faith or the faith itself. only gave my personal stance. so there’s no one to defend. there’s nothing to discuss. you’re right. i’m wrong. i’ll continue to be wrong in my corner of the internet. and you can continue being right in yours.
This is what I’ve been trying to say!!! The church has made cardinal beliefs about things we cannot prove. What makes someone a Christian is that they believe and follow the teachings of Christ, not beliefs they hold about Christ.
I agree with you but I think being a Christian is both; we believe & follow the teachings of Jesus Christ BECAUSE of what we believe about Jesus Christ.
When ppl are led by the wrong shepherd and don't read the Bible then yes they don't know what they believe but when you sit under a preacher chosen by Christ that reads and shares the Gospel and you yourself read the Bible then one begins to see the world and that the Bible foretold and is the Only Truth to foretell what happened then, now and the future....many ppl question cuz they never Read the Bible but once you do you see science etc in the Bible before things of today even knew it
Great vid. I completely agree with confronting who Jesus is. Even he asked his followers "who do men say that I am" vs "who do you say that I am". In my story, I had to stop having the discourse with others and start having it with him. Discourse with man needs a "winner" vs "loser" which is too simple when discussing Jesus. It's a quest. Eventually, he revealed himself and it DEFINITELY came with a limp but well worth it. and the journey only continues but more free. Praying for yours in your own time.
🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
How so a "limp"?
I distanced myself from Christianity over ten years ago, feeling a sense of disconnection from Jesus, whom I associated with confusion. However, in 2020, I came across A Course in Miracles, and it completely transformed my life. Jesus describes this as my path back to God. Now, with Jesus Christ as my guide, I am actively working to trancend my ego. It's fascinating to realize that Jesus resides in everyone's mind, whether we are aware of it or not. Reconnecting with Jesus was unexpected, but my journey has been remarkable. Love is truly the essence of everything. I extend peace and love to all on their own paths❤
Nostalgic days when watching this, I remember watching your chaseGod wepisodes back in my high school days, I'll be turning 27 this year. And I can't tell you enough of how grateful I am being blessed with your videos Joe.
are you still a Christian?
1. It’s great to see you’re not afraid to ask the questions that a lot of us wouldn’t dare to. 2. Your transparency is making me check myself. Hearing you talk about your journey is mind opening and challenging. Especially processing through years of taught belief vs what I’ve come to terms with through my own experiences.
I have a humble (and slightly tangential) contribution to make to this conversation for anyone it may help. I realize that what I may type may sound profoundly insane and admittedly subjective… but it’s helped me immensely.
I didn’t grow up in the church. I came to faith at 20. So I was a skeptical Christian from the beginning and didn’t take everything at face value. I wanted a thoroughly tested faith that didn’t buckle at any hint of scrutiny. I had many questions but what remained intact was my belief in a Sovereign God.
I didn’t know growing up that my family was heavily involved in the occult. So 15 years into my Christianity, everything I’d been taught about what being a Christian is, was far from complete. Going through the most terrifying and inexplicable supernatural experiences taught me that the atmosphere of Christianity is polluted with cultural nuances that we have mistaken as faith. I always thought the Church never explained the need for Jesus comprehensively enough. It’s strange to tell someone a God they know nothing about died for them.
The Bible is a profoundly supernatural book and our attempt to detach it from its ancient Near Eastern and supernatural influences makes the book largely nonsensical.
Let’s remember that the Bible was written primarily by Jews to a Jewish audience who was steeped in a supernatural world view. Talking donkeys, strange looking Cherubims, and four headed beasts made sense to them… not us in a post Christian, scientific era. Proving these things empirically and using today’s measures of historicity is near impossible. The major thing that keeps me from doubt is the spiritual experiences that neither western Christianity nor science can explain (and gifts I didn’t ask for).
The emphasis of the New Testament is to make supernatural connections to the Old Testament and other related ancient texts. Walking on water, exorcisms, and healings make no life changing impact on us… but to a believing Jew in the early Church… they meant the Messianic defeat of evil.
I am still learning… Living in a world where myth and the tangible collide inextricably. I completely agree to the complexity of faith… we will only really know on the other side.
I have come to a very similar conclusion, especially because of my family's experience in the occult and my own gifts/spiritual experiences.
I think it’s kinda cool that you’re interested in the mysteries of God cuz I am too. A few months back I stumbled upon this guy on here named Darnell Craig. He teaches about some of the basic things in ways I hadn’t heard but he also teaches on the more mysterious stuff. He’s definitely helped me see God in a new light while reinforcing what I already know. I pray you will have much grace, peace and faith for your journey Joe.
“The unexamined Christ is not worth having” that part. That quote made me think if Jesus is a believer’s King, Father, and Master, should they know Him intently in a visceral way not superficially to even be a faithful servant of His. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, learned a new perspective. Prayerfully I hope you follow Jesus again, and I agree with you that it would look different from your previous walk with Him, as it should.
Thank you for being transparent. I used to watch your videos right when I was starting to take my exit. It's been so many years now and I just really appreciate when people are honest with their stories. So thank you❤❤
"An unexamined Jesus is not one worth having." That's powerful.
I resonate with the rampant intellectual dishonesty and intentional ignorance in the church. Even something like church history isn't known or really taught.(which crazy to me.) After I got saved I was told I shouldn't study philosophy because I'd lose my way. But I ended up loving it. In general, the notion that we shouldn't question God always felt weird to me. Like, this is God we're talking about, if He can't answer those questions then no one can and, for me, hearing the answer from God is the only one that really sticks. I loved the analogy of putting what we think of God on the altar. I alwasy say that at times Christians are "holier than God." We create barries and boundaries where God hasn't, rituals that he never asked and then crucify the ones we're called to loved on our false holiness. Instead of a real Jesus we want a fairytale. The examined Jesus is facing the reality of how crazy it is to believe. Even Paul said if we're wrong about Jesus then we are to be pitied. But that examined Jesus is also the only one that saves. We need a high priest who's aware of our weaknesses. A real incarnation who came in flesh to die. Not a blonde-haired blue-eyed prosperity genie of our imagination.
I appreciate your videos and I genuinely do learn a lot. I was a big fan of your worship so it was a shock but I am grateful you are letting us into your journey. And I do pray you.
yeah I've dealt with my doubts by saying, "if my faith can't hold up to scrutiny, I need a better faith."
not in a rational, systematic theological way, but just asking myself questions like, "am I being honest?" or "can this theology help me or does it hurt me?"
dogma, especially dogma believed by people with no real understanding, its really scary
This is so good! Thank you Joseph for sharing your honest thoughts. This has truly blessed me. I am a Christian (almost 5 years) and I came to know Jesus through supernatural encounters but since I was 12 I struggled with disbelief. I was not raised in the church but my mom had a Catholic background so the concept of God and Jesus was introduced to me. I think the spiritual aspect is often the missing link in these sort of conversations. These are the scriptures that came to me
Matthew 16:17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
Acts 9: 3-6 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
1 Corinthians 2:1-5 “And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.”
When Jesus healed me from my depression He also healed me from my spiritual blindness. It was the day I understood the cross and His immense love for me. For I was in sin when He healed me. After this encounter I began having blasphemous thoughts about Jesus which I did not understand because it was on that day I fell utterly in love with Him.
I’ll end with this. My salvation was sealed through this question I had asked God in the midst of these attacks in my mind, “isn’t Jesus my advocate?” It was right after I had said this in my mind a woman at my church came up to me and told me my name was written in the book of life. Afterwards I felt a gentle fire throughout my body. I was baptized with the Holy Spirit. No one knew about the attacks and no one knew about my question. A week later I choose to get baptized in water and even during this I was still dealing with blasphemous thoughts. When I was lifted up from the water my pastor’s face changed from joy to disgust. He placed his hands over my head and began to pray for me. Again no one knew about these thoughts and no one knew about my question. I eventually confessed to my friends at church what I was dealing with and it took about 4 months of prayer for me to be fully delivered from those thoughts. Thank you for taking the time to read my comment. Much love 💗
this. I've been wondering this for a while. You put words to my thoughts. It's been strange watching you through the years. I've gone from shaking my head, hoping you'd 'wake up' and come back to having you echo the very thoughts I've been wondering to myself. Thank you for doing this
Hopefully this is a change of atmosphere for you in this comment (nothing against others). Thank you for being honest in your journey. “All cards on the table” I am an outspoken Christian former agnostic and am glad where i am but i would be lying if i were to say i haven’t gone on a similar journey. My conclusion has led me a different path but i do love seeing your journey and commentary. It’s very introspective and well displayed. Whatever conclusions you land on, much love for your future endeavors and keep searching.
Side comment: I don’t know if you have done this yet but a few words on “I cannot unread what i’ve read”. I would like to see video on everything that led you away and then exploring arguments against them. If anything for a thought exercise. I’m sure you’ve done this yourself but it would be interesting to see it in this form.
The depth of your exploration always makes me dig deeper, thank you for sharing your journey…🙏🏽💓
Thank you Joseph for your intellectual honesty. Hearing your arguments for and against Christianity allows me to reflect greatly on my own faith and personal relationship with God. I find your existential muses to be therapeutic and relatable as a Christian who often struggles to balance being rational with having faith. I have a podcast called Ike's Inspiration where I have engaging conversations with people from different facets of life. I would love to have you on the podcast and have a candid conversation about Christianity and faith. I have no intentions of arguing or trying to prove what's the right way to think about Christianity. Exploring our relationship with faith and Christianity would be interesting, introspective, and informative. I would be honor to have you on the platform. I will shoot you a DM as well.
Those closing comments really hit me hard. Thank you for being so open about this journey Joe, for christians and non-christians alike ❤
There is a book called “A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing” by the physicist Lawrence M. Krauss. The main theme of the book is the claim that we have discovered that all signs suggest a universe that could and plausibly did arise from a deeper nothing-involving the absence of space itself and-which may one day return to nothing via processes that may not only be comprehensible but also processes that do not require any external control or direction. It’s good
What I wish I had before I left Jesus was something like this UA-cam channel. You're helping a lot of people feel less alone.
I just learned you had this channel and I really feel you with walking away and asking questions. Appreciate you being real my guy.
I’d love to see you have a live conversation with a Christian who is an intellectual… it seems to me that you haven’t met a Christian who is as philosophically inclined as yourself and you mistake that to mean that Christianity does not have a philosophical, historical, or intellectual leg to stand on and I can tell you that it does.
You can make long videos where you ask yourself questions and answer them yourself, but I’d like to see how you respond to actual good answers, not the bad answers you bring attention to in your talks….I will agree though there are many bad answers to choose from!
I think you’re smart, I think your ultimate goal is knowing truth, and I think you have good intentions. Just saying I’d love to see you have a back and forth conversation instead of just talking.
hey. i’d just ask you to not be so quick to make assumptions. because i don’t have those conversations in front of people doesn’t mean i don’t have that. i don’t think i’d be all that smart if i didn’t spend time around people were pretty darn smart. i mean after all, who do you think suggested this book to me? lol how do you think i *became* philosophically inclined? it was with other christians lol i’ve said on this channel that i credit much of my critical thinking skills *to* christian teachers.
me bringing up a dumb tik tok comment doesn’t mean im not engaging with intellectual christian thought. i was simply using her as a hyperbole of how many christian intellectuals actually feel. they pretend the case for christianity is a pretty straightforward process, even if they don’t express it as arrogantly as the commenter did. i don’t simply highlight “bad arguments”. the fine tuning argument is one that many of your favorite leading apologists make, i.e. william lane craig. arguing that Mark authorized the gospel of mark is an argument i learned in seminary lol so no, kierkegaard, considered to be a philosophical mind on par with Nietzsche, was an intellectual christian who acknowledged the subjectivity of faith and the chasm between faith and rationality.these aren’t simply “bad” or unpopular arguments ive considered. i just know that even the best arguments, are simply arguments at best. they are never “proof”. faith will always eventually have to walk alone.
also, my channel isn’t really about engaging with arguments, though that’s part of it. this is really trying to explore the subjective experience of faith or losing faith, though of course, engaging with intellectual arguments is a bit inevitable.
i quite like the “just get in front of the camera and talk” vibe. im not looking for a public debate, as a lot christian’s in my comments seem to be looking for. i’m here for reflections and expressing what *i* currently believe and think. there are thousands of debates on youtube if you want to hear debates. if you prefer not to just hear me talk, then you’re free to not watch me talk lol
This is why I enjoy how your channel operates because even if people agree or don’t agree you have such a strong humility to yourself to be vulnerable and able to communicate clearly. I applaud even how you responded to a critic type of comment!!
@@flightsfeelings
You could always attempt to bring those issues up in the videos
@@Qwerty-jy9mj what issues am i not bringing up?
Crystals3883 I feel like you've overlooked the purpose of this channel.
Sirr! You are preaching. The sitting in betweeen, in thr nuance is refreshing.
I’ve been torn about my Christian walk for a while now but I’ve never expressed it to anyone because no safe space exists for me to explain it. Thanks for your videos Joe 👏🏾
Your honesty and openness is refreshing. I went looking for your poem re: doubts today, obviously - I couldn't find it & was met by hours of thought provoking content which, challenged me and my "faith".
I will have to check out some of the literature you mentioned.
What you mentioned regarding putting Jesus "on the altar" is true... It is as if you may lose him.
I hate your content as much as I love it - it's challenging and I resonate with your reasoning, your thoughts and your questions. Yet (maybe through fear) I selfishly worry for myself if I continue asking the same questions that what little faith I have left will dwindle, yet that that thought alone shows me just how weak and pathetic the faith I currently possess is.
I crave intellectual honesty within myself, yet knowing how to attain it through the mist of my own epistemology and background is paralyzing.
Don't get dragged into negativity by some of the poor comments your getting, some are concerned and don't voice it clearly or with any sort of articulation.
"Deconstruction" or leaving the Christian faith is not a trivial thing.
Shout out from Aus 🤙
A couple of things:
For one, as someone in a similar place, open- minded like you but with a LOT of questions, which book would recommend first?
Two, I really get a lot out of your videos. Usually, when people go through a "deconstruction" of sorts, you see the beginning or the end but never the middle. This is where the internal wrestling, growth, and maturity happen. These are fundamental pieces of the journey that can help others work through their questions but oftentimes gets overlooked or under-explained ESPECIALLY in a church setting. All that to say, I appreciate your candor.
Three, what do you use to record? The camera quality is amazing
mmm idk if there's ever a book that someone should read "first". i think the order of which we find books interesting is kinda charm of the journey. depends on what answers or conversations you're specifically interested in entering. also, i'd say a lot of books that are not specific to this discussion have also helped me in bringing new thoughts to the discussion.
some books i've recently read that i'd highly recommend are: the book from this video, the historical christ and the theological jesus. the bonobo and the atheist is another book i read this year that i really enjoyed. fear and trembling by Soren Kierkegaard.
camera is a sony fx3
Christian here. I genuinely enjoyed this video to be honest. Really agree with the sentiment that a Christ not examined, is a Christ not worth believing. I appreciate the intellectual honesty concerning arguments for Christ, the seeming murkiness of various elements. I really appreciate the thought that faith really is a separate thing on its own. It may work with reason or rationality (insofar as we can reason), but ultimately, it is a separate thing needed to believe, not just a conclusion to reason per se. There are many reasonable people, who don’t believe and many reasonable ones who do. Loads was said in this vid, and I’d rather not have this comment be a dissertation lol. But really enjoyed this video 🙏🏾
Thank you Joe for your honesty and insights. Still learning from you all these years even though we're in different places. Feeling second hand embarrassment from all the cringe comments on here from my brothers and sisters. But these are my people. I'm sorry for this - it must be exhausting and I pray God forgives us. The lack of empathy and wisdom is palpable - people being so bold to say things behind keyboard that they'd never say to your face. It's very sad to see immature, not well considered comments. Honestly its been very disappointing to read these.
When I was little I read about the talking snake and I was like " this is stupid" but I didnt care cause I loved the story of Jesus and that he loved me. As I got older and read the entire bible, I was like this doesnt make a lot of sense, but once again, I didnt care cause the message of Jesus captivated me. As long as I try to folllow what Jesus taught, ill be alright. But I know its hard to take some and leav some, but thats what I do lol. Im going TRY to feed the poor, visit the sick, care for the orphan widowed, respect all creations (expect roaches) and put others about myself.
I’m glad I stumbled upon your video today. My exit out of Christianity was similar, where I felt the need to explore other supernatural concepts. It was a journey I had fun with, exploring various practices I previously just dismissed because I was told to do so. It felt good to making decisions using my own reasoning to decide whether or not I believe something. I’ve since moved on from any of that and I just don’t worry about it. If there is a force out there that knows me then it knows how to reach me.
As far as Jesus, the idea that Jesus died for me because he loved me was a concept I just believed because it sounded good. As I got older, focusing more on what was happening I was always perplexed by the crucifixion story. The story just didn’t make sense to me but I went along with it because believing it was necessary to be a Christian. But I grew up strongly adversed to the idea of blood sacrifice due to my exposure to Indiana Jones movies. I knew killing someone to make something happened was just wrong. I had my own internal sense of morality that wasn’t just what the Bible says is good or what the Bible said was bad is bad. I understood what was wrong was wrong but when I saw it in the Bible I just avoided those parts so I could keep believing it. The cognitive dissonance was very strong
It took several years for me to explore the Bible without ignoring or excusing problematic passages. I finally realized I belonged to a group that worships a human sacrifice. I could never make peace with a god that requires something like that. There’s so much more involved with my deconstruction and deconversion but that’s my situation with Jesus.
Hi,
I appreciate your thoughtful post. The Old Testament is full of examples of God denouncing and detesting human sacrifice (Deut 18:10, Jer 7:31 to name a couple). Jesus’ life is different. Regarding His life he says, “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again” (John 10:18). As a parent, this makes me think of how I would die to protect my kids from harm.
Proverbs: 3: 5-6
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.
cool
The title alone lets me know this finna be...🍿
What's always made you a dope dictator is that your videos are thought provoking and challenging. As a sort of intellectual person myself, I like (sometimes not, as the questions pull up uninvited and I try to welcome them w open arms regardless) to challenge God and my own self with questions very often. And from a Christian perspective, I think that we never stop learning about/getting to know Jesus as He constantly works in us thru the Holy Spirit that teaches, humbles and brings us wisdom and shows us the way He works. But anyway, bless you fam, it's always nice to hear your perspective of things, know that you keep being an inspiration to many of us by just being human, you're aknowledged and respected
Joseph, Jesus loves you bro. I feel like you’re on a journey that won’t actually lead to a place of complete understanding of whatever it is you’re looking for because life with Christ is all about faith. I don’t believe that those of us we will ever understand everything about who God is, why he does what he does, or the history of everything. But I just wonder why knowing he existed and exists now isn’t enough. Just as much as we choose a partner for life to marry, we never fully know 100% about who they are, but based on what we’ve learned about them and the faith we have in them to be a forever partner, we choose to do life with them. Is not knowing that the sun, moon, the stars, the wind that blows but we can’t see, the large bodies of water across the world that no man has handmade, the brain functioning the way that it does in intricate detail, and all of the more obvious things in life, not enough for you to have even the conclusion that something way larger than you exists… I hope that you don’t get offended by my thoughts on all this, but I feel this is all a distraction for what I feel you could truly experience when having a real encounter and relationship with the Holy Spirit. He’s real bro and I hope you one day soon surrender to Him and choose to trust Him even in the things that you may not understand.
your first two sentences immediately prove you don’t actually listen to what i say on this channel. so the rest is irrelevant. if you actually listened to this video or even the video i posted before this one, that sentence would actually be quite redundant and unnecessary. but because all yall hear is “he doesn’t believe”, you have pre-made conclusions and responses. it’s really a disservice to me, yourself, your god, and whoever else in your personal life that may have a similar experience.
@@flightsfeelings Joseph, I don’t understand where you are coming from bro. So forgive me if the first two sentences make no sense to you. I think the mere fact of me taking time out of my day to comment here asking a question on your video shows that I actually am at very least TRYING to understand you bro. I definitely listened to your video but didn’t understand completely and knew that if I were to just write in the comment section “what are you talking about?” it would most likely be ignored or dismissed just as this was one. You have to understand that most of us aren’t reading and studying the books and things you are talking about. So we are going to naturally have questions and even misunderstandings about the information you’re sharing. All I know is faith. My comment was intended to be encouraging and possibly be the start of a conversation to help me better understand where you’re coming from, how you got to this place of thought, and what you’re getting after. So no, I’m not doing anyone a disservice to you or anyone by trying to get an understanding. I’m doing the opposite. I have watched your videos on another channel and am still struggling to understand, again what happened, how you got to this place of thought, and what the goal is. If you would rather dismiss me and everyone else that has followed you throughout the years rather than help me understand where you’re coming from, I completely respect your decision.
@@flightsfeelings I genuinely just don’t know what your goal is and wanted to understand that. But it seems like even asking a question comes off as an attack to you and that alone helps no one. Just as much as you would expect those of us who don’t understand to try and meet you where you are, you should be willing to do the same for us who don’t understand.
i have plenty of followers who have stuck around and are here in this comment section. they ask questions that are not piously condescending or presumptuous. i have maintained nearly all of my christian friendships and converse about god regularly with them and we both disagree and offer pushback without condescension.
1. i think one thing that has been most annoying about some interactions with christians online is this perpetual need to let me know that they pity me. and because they can only see it coming from a kind, godly place they lack the self-awareness to see how that would come off in the other direction.
2. your comment said “ I FEEL like your journey won’t lead to a place of complete understanding because life with christ is all about faith.” fam… ive literally said that exact thing over and over on this channel. and i said it on this video. and it said it most overtly in my last video. the entire video about was about the irrationality of faith and how that is very intriguing to me and i’m desiring of that. i said i desire to enjoy that fully literally in this video. this video you’re commenting on is me discussing at length that if i ever came to faith it would be just that: faith. i haven’t said this in coded language. it’s been pretty overt. but when some christians hear me simply asking rational questions they automatically assume i think that i expected or expect to reach “complete understanding” at some point and ive never said that. i’ve consistently said the exact opposite. so forgive me if i see a long comment starting off with a sentence that clearly shows complete misunderstanding or misrepresentation of my experience and be turned off immediately. if you didn’t watch the video or you couldn’t watch it attentively without making presumptions about me, just say that…
3. fam, no you can’t play the uno reverse card and act like im trying to alienate people for simply asking questions. there is not even a single question mark in your entire first comment lol. not one! your whole angle can’t be “i’m just asking questions. you mad at me for asking questions” and you didn’t ask no questions 😂 but plenty of “ i feel… i feel… i feel…”. plenty statements of opinion. you were making assumptions that were opposite of what i’ve already spoke at length about on my channel.
lastly, i find it ironic that christians accuse me of needing to have all the rational answers, when i am actually the one trying to sit in the mystery. for you, there is no real mystery. and if god seems so obvious and black and white, then that doesn’t make him all the mysterious. if you choose not to engage in intellectual conversations around faith, that’s fine fam. that’s all you! but there are many godly and kind christian’s who do, so don’t dismiss me or their inquiries just because it’s not concern to you. just watch from a distance.
@@flightsfeelings
1. Prior to your reply I was wondering if “this was all a distraction keeping you from experiencing a deeper intimacy with God that comes from accepting that faith can sometimes means not trying to figure everything out but just trusting.” But I now have a different understanding on where you are and am interested to know and grow more in my own faith, based on your statement: “sitting in the mystery”. I respect that and it totally helps me to see where you are and is now interesting to me. I don’t intend to misunderstand you. I don’t intend to misrepresent your experience. I don’t intend to make presumptions about you. I didn’t understand and I agree my comment comes off very simplified when what you’re journeying through is much bigger than that. So I apologize if what I said came off in those ways. I can only speak from what I know and where I am. I would hope that you would have grace for me in that.
2. If you read my comment again, I did ask a question. I missed adding the question mark. I asked: “Is not knowing that the sun, moon, the stars, the wind that blows but we can't see, the large bodies of water across the world that no man has handmade, the brain functioning the way that it does in intricate detail, and all of the more obvious things in life, not enough for you to have even the conclusion that something way larger than you exists...”. And I now understand your response to that question in your second point.
3. I can honestly say I have never taken time other than now to try and have an intellectual conversation about my faith because I don’t know that I’ve studied enough to even be able to do so. Growing up it was all about have faith and that was that. You were never taught to dissect, inspect, or ask questions about your faith. So I wouldn’t have known where to start in writing that comment. So again, please forgive me if my comment didn’t come across the right way. I can only speak from where I am and what I currently know. I would just ask that next time for someone who may make another comment like mine, understand we’re not as learned in this journey that you’re on. Give us some grace. And that the mere fact that everyone understands and receives information differently are grounds for misunderstanding and misinterpretation. For me, depending on the subject I will need someone to break concepts, ideas, and things to me on a greater level. And you did that. So I genuinely and very much appreciate you for doing that.
4. I don’t intend nor want to dismiss you. I now see how my comment definitely comes off misrepresenting of what you’re sharing and discussing. I appreciate the additional insight you’ve shared about where you are in your journey and helping me to see where I was missing understanding.
5. I’ll end with saying I wasn’t intentionally choosing to not have an intellectual conversation about faith but I believe that it is something I simply would have to first find then gain the tools to do. But I now think (not that you care or are asking) what you’re doing is necessary and would be considered brave. Especially for those who also like me grew up just being told to have faith just because that’s what you do. I think what you’re doing has now challenged me to dig deeper in my faith and ask the necessary questions to have a true understanding of what I believe and why. The comment about sitting in the mystery has stuck with me.
listening back to the video to see what i said that could trigger or put me at enmity at christians lol. i’m thinking like “man i must’ve really overstated my point…”
listening back, im actually quite surprised that christians can listen to someone saying “hey i see the beauty of faith. i’d like faith, and even faith in jesus is on the table. it just would look very different and i would have to acknowledge that rational arguments won’t get me across the finish line because after years of careful consideration, history is too gray and rationality too limited.” that’s the the gist of this video. and i said it all in a generally hospitable tone lol
how is any of this combative? lol why would you look to argue with someone like this, rather than encourage and ask questions? like… is yall default setting “argue with anyone who doesn’t say the exact things my favorite preacher says?”
It all depends on the person, they’re either listening to understand or listening to respond, when it’s important to do both. I really agree with what you say about stepping out of the rational world of thought in order to come into true faith. Regarding belief around the Trinity, I would say, it’s wrong to deny its existence having already known about it. The people in the Bible times had received the spirit if they were believers of Christ. Hope that makes sense. I really enjoyed this video, didn’t expect to watch the full thing. Everyone is on their own journey, and that’s part of what this life is given to us for. It’s so important that conversations like this can be had.
Funny you mentioned the fine-tuning argument, I was thinking about this a few weeks ago. As a Christian, I believe that God created an ordered world but at the same time, I'm confronted by just how disorderly the world can be. The writer of Ecclesiastes was confronted by this reality too, saying that everything was vanity (or like a puff of smoke; impossible to crab).
I appreciate the conversations you have because it challenges me to think about what I believe. It's good to think about what we say we believe, not just blindly defend it because we have chosen a side.
Not every argument is equally grasped or attractive to every person. Usually only those that have a deep interest in the natural sciences are deeply touched by fine tuning/design arguments for a creators existence. For example Richard Dawkins said he thinks (if I’m not mistaken) that fine thing or design is the best theist argument. Anthony Flew became a deist bc of the design argument, etc. etc. Solomon seems more philosophical in nature, I’m not surprised that he isn’t particularly fond of fine tuning.
However as far as I’m concerned bc I am to an existent a science nerd, fine tuning is indeed convincing when you deeply study nature and see how interconnected everything is, even the chaos in nature.
Different strokes for different folks.
@@justchilling704 You're right. Different strokes for different folks.
I think what I was trying to communicate was that fine-tuning has its limits. For example: Why do babies get cancer? Seems like the order is lost when you hear stories like that. Don't you agree?
Side note - Part of what the creation story tells us is how God brought about order from the chaos. And how humans undone the order in their "sin".
Back to the point - It's not that I don't agree with you about using fine-tuning as a tool to point to God, I just feel it falls short. I've seen the pain of many Christians who are on the brink of losing their trust in God (good people who have had bad things happen to them), and the last thing they want to hear is how the world is fine-tuned.
@@justchilling704 i too am quite a science nerd. especially the natural sciences. between my bookshelves, my audible app and my youtube homepage algorithm you’ll find astrophysics, anthropology, evolutionary biology, cosmology, neuroscience. the point i was trying to make in the video, or should i say the question, is 1. the world may not be as ordered as we first presumed. that may come more to light later. 2. if god can create any type of natural world he wanted to, why would an ordered natural world be something to point to him? he could very well make a world not ordered at all like the one we see. after all, christians believe that there is in fact another world that is not ordered like this one, and it is the supernatural world. if he indeed sustains the world by his own power, why do we need natural order and laws to sustain the world? order, then, only seems to be a convenience, but not a necessity for a world created by god.
@@OnTheEmmausRd I 100% agree. It may have been lost in my comment but my only real point, was that I think certain arguments are more effective on an individual level depending on interest of the person.
For example, if I want to convince someone the earth isn’t flat, I’ll try to understand how they think and their interest to best argue for a round earth. I think the best argument against God’s existence is the problem of evil, specifically random natural evils like deformities, childhood cancer etc. I think that’s the evil harder to rationalize or justify (not impossible).
@@flightsfeelings My fault on the presuming, perhaps I was reading my biggest leaning (philosophy/introspection). I actually agree that God could have created any type of world imaginable, the design argument only works if it can be proven that design requires an intelligent agent. It’s what the William Lane Craig types try to prove (as I’m sure you know).
So yeah I guess in a way order is something in a theist view that God does for us, not some necessity. But it’s great to know that you’re a science nerd too, for the record I didn’t think you’re adverse to science or don’t like, but from your videos on this channel I definitely see the philosopher in you man.
Thoughts.. (Former Christian here) I think God delights in co-creating with us. Just like we get to choose God or not choose god, we are given the dignity of the rest of that free-will to create whatever we wish to create.
I watched your video on why you did and didn’t leave “the faith”. Thank you for sharing. That can’t be easy. My transition was mostly private and still something I grieved.
What happened for me was that I found an epiphany and a longing within myself to get rid of the box (Christianity) that I was trying to fit around god. Like I was trying to understand God with the limited capacity of my brain (and religion) when God is actually ever-expansive. I realized that my personal experience of god was most complete when I came with my heart instead of my head. Specifically in worship via song (most beautiful, your cover, being my favorite.. even still 💜) I think because my “Christian” experience was always a lot less about dogma and way more about heartspace encounters, god’s withness.. those of the personally undeniable kind, “leaving the faith” for me was a very natural evolution as the next stage in my experience of god. But then again, I’m a lot more comfortable w mystery than science.
Either way, I think it really is all good. And for the record, you don’t owe anybody anything (explanations). And also, I appreciate you sharing as you do. 💜🙏🏽
To truly walk with God, will require faith, humility, meekness, and sacrifice.
This is also the truth of true love.
Don’t be misled my brothers and sisters, I remember well this brother saying negative things about Christianity and he literally denounced himself as a follower of Christ. So my understanding is it’s either you’re team Christ or you’re on the other team. May the good Lord provide you all with wisdom and discernment to be able to stand against those who mislead you. In Jesus’ name. Amen
yes. i have said many critical things about christianity. and i see the ability to see the negative and positive in things as a virtue, not a vice. there’s nothing to mislead anyone here. there’s no gimmick or schtick. christianity is not all bad and not all good either. and that’s okay. such is life.
@@flightsfeelings it’s funny how some UA-camrs do all this hokum just to get views. I get it, you do you. The problem is when one publicly denounce our Lord Jesus Christ, I have no doubt in my mind that they are working for the devil. One can never serve 2 masters, and you know it. If you just do it for UA-cam then be careful yourself too. I am actually one of those people who followed your channel for a longtime and I must say, it was good until when you switched masters
@@globeExplorer365 lol okay well. i guess i work for the devil so the conversation stops there. have a great week.
I used to be a Christian too, Alhamdulillah now I am a muslim. I studied christianity, judaism and Islam before reverting. The only one that made sense for me is Islam. Finally my soul is at peace.
Outside the topic of religion we know that in general the truth doesn’t convince or motivate everyone. But in Christianity most believe we need God's Spirit to regenerate us prior to accepting "the truth." I know you're living with a different worldview now, but what are your thoughts on the doctrine of depravity and more so on the person of the Holy Spirit? I.e. would a god/miracle be necessary to bridge the gap between rationality and faith?
On a more personal note, do you look back on when you were a Christian and question total [or partial] depravity? If there is a God must he necessarily be the Motivator for good works (i.e. faith, evangelism, prayers, etc)?
i dont think i really have any views about total depravity, other than i know a lot of people use it against me and other non-believers to not have to deal with a lot of our pushback lol
" If there is a God must he necessarily be the Motivator for good works (i.e. faith, evangelism, prayers, etc)?" i'm not sure i understand this question. can god be the only motivator for good works in the world even if God exists? is that what you're asking? i think it's clear that humans carry the capacity to do "good" even without acknowledging god, so i dont think god is necessary for that. whether or not those good works have any eternal meaning is different story.
@thshores Thanks for interacting. I don't subscribe to the doctrine of total depravity because I don't think it's congruent with divine hardening (e.g the hardening of Israel against jesus or of pharoah). A lot of your push back is quite good and often warranted.
Sorry i wasn't clear in the second question. Of course people of all beliefs do good and righteous acts all the time, regardless of their eternal value. What I was trying to draw out was where you stand on the Holy Spirit. You've shed some light on where you're at with Jesus, but I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on the HS. Especially because I believe you were genuine in your Christian arc and I think the HS was actually working through you in your old videos. I wanted to hear your take on it all -- not to be crude, but what were you on? Or what do you chalk it up to?
i think that kinda goes back to my video “was i ever really a christian?” i believe my efforts were genuine. in the time of being christian, i felt “led by the holy spirit” in various ways and experiences. obviously, without a current confidence in an idea of a “holy spirit”, i’d have different explanations of that experience retrospectively. for now, i chalk it up to genuinely misguided but said a lot of things that i think were genuinely helpful to people and things that i still believe in some figurative sense.
@@flightsfeelings Fair enough. Your videos were quite helpful. Am I ever gonna see any of them again?
You're setups are always so clean! There's something about this one in particular that I'm really taking a liking to. Do you mind sharing what hard and software you use?
The church added way too much to the belief in God that was not necessary and went to great length to protect some wrong beliefs. That’s why it was and is important for me to read and study the words of Jesus.
The timeline the church uses is untrue, if we took Jesus at his word.
Have you read N.T. Wright's 4-part "Christian Origins and the Question of God" series? And have you explored the Catholic or Orthodox traditions? Jonathan Pageau maybe? There is a deep well of spiritual life within the Church of Jesus, friend. Would love to see you continue exploring more Christian avenues of belief and thought!
But when Jesus returns at that time, when yall least expect it
You can't say u wasn't warned. It will be no more time for questioning your beliefs bro lol I'm telling u.. U make ur own choices and decisions. That's the freewill that God have given us.
But just accept that there's a hellfire and a heaven, and through jesus, we r only saved. If u can at least accept that, then eternity for your soul shouldn't matter even if u decided to choose hell over Jesus..At least be honest about where u r going without him..
Also I'm not tryna start a debate on this, people have their own beliefs about Jesus and most of it is Wrong!. Regardless of what u believe he's still coming back to judge the world and it'll be a scary sight to see for the ones who reject him.
Again I'm not tryna debate if u dont believe he's God or not. He's still coming back no matter how many questions u have about the bible or christianity. He's still coming back!.
when intellectual arguments are few, just resort to fear lol k
you’re right. no debate from me. lol you got it. 🙏🏽
@theshoressomewhere you can intellectually argue all day and get nowhere. The truth still stands.🧍♂️ lol. Good day ✌️
@@taylorangel7700 lol k thanks for your contribution
Right - I've commented on a couple of your videos before Joe (sometimes where I respectfully disagree and i offer my own opinions/insights accordingly). For this one though, it was a treat (Wish I saw this video earlier, but I just had time to find & watch this) - I find myself nodding & agreeing with you wholeheartedly, basically on everything that's been mentioned XD (& i was paying attention throughout - there's really nothing that I disagree on, e.g. on Biblical inerrancy, Mystery vs "Rationality" - i think a balance of both is paying honest respects to the whole ordeal as it is as such, Historicity, etc.).
For instance, you mentioned that some really just think - "if you follow this line, then that's where the evidence leads and so it has to be this way", but that they're not really "malicious" in any way. I agree - I think the reformation in the 16th century that birthed Calvinism was a product of a really particular literalist view that is just misguided - for those reasons; so point being nothing malicious in intent (but lest I digress here). I've read somewhere that the Bible is like a bit of a puzzle in some sense - in that you can fit the puzzle pieces to form different pictures (while using all/most of the pieces). But I'd like to think that puzzles could form a more "whole" or complete/harmonious picture (if the analogy, e.g. pieces have details, etc. is carried out fully), or a better "fit". I guess the same applies to life in some sense.
Also on the point about being a bit of a "Heretic" - I actually agree. For instance some of my favourite writers actually disregard Church Authority to a certain extent (Orthodoxy). I think this is wise, because humans are fallible, and even if a "right" decision is upheld by one or more - others within the church or places of authority can disagree (and usually decisions are made via votes in certain cases, same for translations of Bible versions & translations of translations, etc.). And I don't think "majority rules" or "religious authority" (though a good & useful thing of course - in a world such as this) is always the best case. To parallel what I've said - in my own introspection (I haven't read anyone making this connection - though honestly it's not that hard to make), 1) I think of the time of Christ: Pharisees vs Jesus, and 2) for example Nicodemus (a Pharisee) was actually drawn to Christ's teaching compared to the others. In such light, I think being a heretic sometimes (contra mainstream views - as such was the time of Christ), is actually more "orthodox" or even prudent. A Funny but quite True Paradox (but not really a Paradox) imo.
On Genesis, if i may share a bit, I take the view that it's a myth, and yet that this doesn't undermine the thought that Paul had of Adam (as a 1st century Hellenistic jew), which of course could be a much different view of Adam than those we have as of now (that shouldn't be surprising even as a first-pass thought). There's scholars that hold this view that I find are in a sense prudent - in the sense of being honest and truthful (in such a way that you have described).
On Revelation I'm a Partial-Preterist (I believe a prudent reading with the context and the specific language used in mind at the time points to & shows that Nero was the antichrist at the time) - though I think it/that could also foreshadow some future events in our lifetime/after - Because History repeats itself (this I find true, so I'm completely open to the possibility).
I think you'd enjoy David Bentley Hart's books & substack - He's incredibly intelligent and well read on many facets (Religions, Art, Language, Music, Philosophy of Mind, Metaphysics, Philosophy, Baseball, Etc.). He is also currently (i believe) on tour in the University of Cambridge giving out Stanton lectures on Christology (which are to be recorded to the best of ability and should be published soon). imo he does more than apologetics, and in terms of apologetics (Out of all that I've come across, he's definitely one of my favourites). I have no issue crediting a lot of my beliefs/knowledge to him, I'm grateful actually for his prudent insight. I also find I can relate to him as always having an aversion to contemporary worship at church services (though it could just be a deficiency in me), though speaking for myself personally - what I feel is that I think in some sense sometimes the music takes away from the words/content (and could even distract via fleeting "feelings" induced by the accompanying music, whereby I think worship should be grasped from the intellect/soul/heart authentically), but truly to each their own. A bit of a "Heretic", but good-natured imo & very intelligent. He also has a new book coming out on Philosophy of Mind, and he's written a book on the Future of Christianity (in terms of how to conceptualise such a concept/what to think of it/make of it - that you may find interesting), and a translation of the NT based off the Greek.
You might also enjoy Richard Swinburne on Divine Hiddenness (he also wrote a good book on Revelation/interpreting scripture), which I've read about a while back ago - but I've come to terms with the topic intellectually as of now. :)
Also on the point that its not all clear-cut, I totally agree (I think any honest intellectual would agree on this), and so it's an on-going journey (which I think is a good thing in of itself - which ties into the point above) I have some views where I diverge from others I look up to (or moreso I find myself agreeing with different authors of conflicting ideas, regarding different fields) & surely i understand i can't get everything right but nor can anyone else really, but let's just say i'm glad my belief is in Christ that saves & reconciles, and not a specific set of knowledge :) In my humble opinion though, I think its best to leave/allow for certain interpretations on things that are less clear, that such would be a more honest & prudent way, and also to determine or put more weight on the things that matter - e.g. NT Content vs Genesis (but in life and such too, in general imo), e.g. on grounds of relevancy to its respects, etc., and move from there
Much Love & Peace :)
Just sharing some of my thoughts, mostly I just want to bring up that the points you brought up are all fair & good
P.s.: I read somewhere that this was just you being upset at God, but I really don't see that at all LOL - if anything this was pure honesty and intellectual curiosity, which is refreshing
Bless You & Thank You for this Video Bro
I keep asking Jesus if it’s okay if I don’t know for sure. Is that enough? Can I have the faith of a mustard seed and still say I don’t know? And even then, I’m still talking to Jesus like he’s in the room with me. It’s hard to walk away. You’d think it would be easy cause on the other side is living my life however whichever way I want to. I should feel free. Instead I feel depressed, and a little betrayed.
I think my next step now is to figure out why Christianity has survived beyond ethnic and regional boundaries? How did we get from a few 12 or so to millions. From both an academic and historical standpoint but I’m also not going to discount the experiential. But I’m mostly interested in the Pauline and apostolic ministries in that first century. Why were first century Jews willing to believe in Jesus as the Messiah at great cost to their lives in first century Rome? Were there pressures other than simply a belief in a resurrection that made “Christianity” attractive? Jesus came at a time where people were just as hostile to his claim to be the messiah, I mean, he was crucified. John was beheaded. Paul was jailed and murdered. So it’s a misconception to believe that people of that time were more ready to believe in Jesus than we are cause we’re just free critical thinkers and they weren’t. I would actually argue the opposite. As difficult as I’m finding it to walk away, I mean the leap they would’ve had to make. Anyway, I’m talking to myself but if you have any resources to share, please do.
no expert here. just some ideas that you can chase down in your free time. NONE of the things im going to say by default completely rule out supernatural intervention through these events. but it's also not all that difficult to connect some dots without invoking the supernatural:
1."Why were first century Jews willing to believe in Jesus as the Messiah at great cost to their lives in first century Rome?" this was an apologetic question that i sort of assumed the premise to be true: first century jews were willing to believe at great cost to their lives. far as we know, christianity was only outlawed in Rome for about ten years and this was in the 3rd century, right before Constantine inversely made it the official religion. though there may have been some persecution of christians in the first century, there actually isn't any evidence of widespread persecution of christians, especially for their specific claim in the resurrection. we have no evidence that Nero was looking deconvert Christians. Rome occupied Judea, and the jesus movement wasn't the only jewish-offshoot that was going on at the time. Nero's persecution of Christians was a political one. that's one idea you can chase down. but in any case, people dying for deeply held beliefs is not uncommon.
2. of course, that may lead to "what about those who claimed to be eyewitnesses to the resurrection? why would they lie?" this is largely an assumption among apologists. as you go on the sincere journey of trying to answer this question, you may soon realize that it may be quite difficult to find historical evidence (including the bible) of christians in the first century who claimed to be actual eyewitnesses to the resurrection (not second-hand story) and chose to die rather than recanting belief in jesus example: Paul is not an eyewitness to the resurrection. jesus came to him in a vision, and even Paul was unsure if it was the physical appearance or just a vision (2 Cor 12:2) there is no account, even in the bible, that tells us the nature of his death or why he died. all we have is church tradition. most scholars believe he was killed but the exact details are unknown. Peter and Paul were likely killed around the time Nero was blaming Christians for a large fire that started in Rome. political. nothing to do with a resurrection.
even if we attribute the authorship of 1/2 Peter and book of James to Peter and James respectively (which many scholars don't) we still have no first hand account of the resurrection from James or Peter. only a claim to seeing the transfiguration during his life. If you attribute Revelation to John (again many scholars don't), he only attests to seeing Jesus in heaven. outside of the gospels, and even including Acts, we have very little information on the lives and deaths of the other apostles. they seem to all but vanish from historical sources .
3. Jesus was crucified for claiming to be king of the jews. to the jews, this may have been a theological problem. for rome, this was a political problem (even the gospels attest that many of his disciples understood him to be ushering in a physical kingdom rather than just a spiritual one), and jesus is not the only insurrectionist who was crucified in this time.
4. "So it’s a misconception to believe that people of that time were more ready to believe in Jesus than we are" It actually isn't. Did they have a mature conception of what a resurrection was prior to Jesus' death? no. But as apocalyptic Jews, they had a few things: 1. The deep belief that Jesus was the Messiah and he would usher in a new kingdom 2. Unlike us today, they had no conception of a disembodied existence after death. 3. They were not* expecting him at all to die, as he would usher in this new kingdom. But he did die. 4. as few as one or two of them could have sincere visions of Jesus after his death (people have visions all the time), but a vision that must reconcile with their concept of a fully embodied existence and king. pull up any article you'd like, and you'll see in today's times there are many people convinced that they saw their dead loved one. the difference is, we have a cultural context that allows for disembodied existence. apocalyptic jews did not. just because something isn't a fully matured idea doesn't mean the pieces for it aren't there for it, given cultural context.
5. let's not also assume that christianity then immediately exploded in Rome in the first century. Christians remained a relatively small obscure jewish sect among other jewish sects for quite some time. in the centuries to come long after the death of Jesus, it grew in popularity, particularly among the lower class because of its emphasis on care for the poor and its deemphasis on class stratification. eventually leading to the adoption by the Emperor Constantine in the 300's, making it the state sponsored religion. And when you've got the largest imperial power in the world endorsing your religion, the sky is the limit.
again, NONE of the things by default completely rule out supernatural intervention throughout. but it's also not all that difficult to connect some dots without invoking the supernatural.
”For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.“
1 Corinthians 13:12-13 NIV
This is what has helped me on things I don’t know! If Paul who had received a revelation so great that he got a thorn in his flesh to prevent him from being conceited, says he doesn’t know about God’s mysteries fully what makes us think we can ever know, but one promise stands!! That at that glorious day when we stand before him we shall fully know and understand all.
And in the meantime what he asks us to hold firm to us faith, hope and love. And if we do that it’s all good. Love you fam ❤️❤️ stand firm in him ❤️
I appreciate your perspective. I agree that we (Christians) should interrogate the faith that we claim to have. Whilst I disagree with some of your premises, I do think that they provide interesting points to be explored. I pray that as you navigate Christianity outside of faith in Jesus, you'll find your way back to Jesus.
Agree with points raised on honesty when analysing the rationality of things in Christiandum and thanks for highlighting the Author mentioned.
This is always an on the edge of your seat, mind blowing learning experience. Appreciate your shared thoughts!
I'm just in the state of how have we as "Christians" (myself included) been bamboozled by the current Political state of Israel, formed in 1948 vs. The Israel/ (Palestine), in the "correct" Biblical historical context. I'm investigating this. Any help?
i’m no expert and this has nothing to do with my personal political stance on israel…but i believe it starts with dispensationalist eschatology. john darby introduces this in the 1800’s and it’s the first time ever in christian history that christian’s start believing in the now popular idea of a “rapture”. and this theology centers israel, which did not currently exist, in the end times narrative. the nation of israel made in 1948 was made PURELY on political reasons and even partly supported by ANTI-SEMITIC ideas - i.e. “no one wants jews in their country so yes please let them have their own country so we don’t have to deal with them”. christians who have a belief that a literal war surrounding the nation of israel is necessary for the return of jesus saw being on the side of israel was a THEOLOGICAL issue, not simply a sociopolitical issue. again, something you will find nowhere in christian thought until the 1800’s.
@@flightsfeelings WOW, that's alot for me to feast on! I've raised this with my Mentor and can't wait to sit this one and flesh out with her. THANKS so much! And yep, 100% agree - it's NOT personal on my end either re: the state of Israel. It just kept me awake a few weeks back on this one. Thanks Joe!
I don't "plan" for mildew to grow in my shower...but, the circumstances just happen to be right for it to grow.
ok so you should not close the curtain after showering. that allows air to flow so the shower doesn’t stay moist. also, spraying an after-shower anti-mildew spray is super helpful.
Have you considered Seminary or looking into Systematic Theology? You mentioned Keurcoguard so I am assuming you’ve done your due diligence. I’d also suggest if you haven’t already look into “The Spirit of Intimacy” by Sobonfu Some. Also Howard Thurman “Meditations Of The Heart” is great! There are soooooo many awesome theological commentaries that address and provide perspective on what you shared! I’m happy to share some books with you!
i went to seminary lol didn’t graduate but i did go. Soren Kierkegaard wasn’t a really systematic theologian tho. very much a philosopher and writer just influenced by his theology. but yes familiar with different approaches to systematic theology. i am subtly addressing systematic theology through many of these videos. theological commentaries, though i would never be close to exhausting all perspectives, this is not something new for me. this has been a 15 year long journey. i think my experience with systematic theology is partly why i am now adverse to it. as alluded to in this video, i am interested in the mystery of faith. western systematic theology by default largely attempts to tie up the mystery. this is where the earliest split in the church happens between the western rationalism of catholicism (which the protestants flowed from) and mystery of eastern orthodoxy.
i dont think i would benefit from going to seminary at this point in my life, especially ones that require statement of faiths. i’m an artist lol a singer and creative. i will continue to be a serious enthusiast.
Just listened to Rhett from Ear Biscuits relating his story at 4 years since his public declaration on 'exiting Christianity'. This was two months ago. I mention it because I think it will be interesting to you, Joe, and to you, reader of comments.
Thank you for these videos & book recommendations! Do you recommend any literature on the historical (maybe not Biblical) Jesus actually existing?
the book in the video for sure! The Historical Christ and the Theological Jesus by Dale Allison. also, another popular non-christian new testament scholar, Bart Erhman: “Did Jesus Exist?”
I love this video ,this is what I've been going through
I think you could really benefit from looking into seminary. Welsey Theological Seminary, Union Theological Seminary, Yale Theological Seminary, & Princeton Theological Seminary, & Duke Divinity
33:14 good point I wrestled with the Trinity for years and thought the same thing
hey jo, thanks for this video. Kierkegaard is my philosophy hero, and i echo everything everybody has said. these videos are helpful.
my wife introduced me to you. she loves your old content and you helped teacher her The Way when she was a young christian. now shes still a Christian and was devastated by your original coming out video, but truthfully i hope she comes to see how honest youre being here. at least you're honest, man. most christians arent.
If i can take the liberty to share, i wanna give you a piece to chew on that comes to me from G. K. Chesterton by way of a Hegelian philosopher known as Slavoj Zizek.
Zizek is a Marxist, he did a debate with Peterson a few years back, it was wild to watch and it helped deprogram my far right wing bias.
but in the middle of the debate, Zizek explains, borrowing from the climax of Chesterton's masterwork Orthodoxy, that on the cross, when Jesus says the aramaic line from matthew thats translated as, "father why have you forsaken me?" in this moment, God himself becomes an atheist.
Zizek puts this in Hegelian terms by saying, "you become free when you realize that separation from God is inscribed upon divinity itself."
This is getting way into real heresy, and even full preterism and the idea that this life is the new earth and the end of history. There is nobody coming to save us now, so to speak.
but anyway... I call this doctrine, "Chesterton's escape hatch". It, along with my beautiful wife, have kept me in the faith for a few years now, and I believe it is an excellent remedy for the material reality that modernism exposed us to.
Satre says in his pamphlet about Humanism that, as an atheist, he doesnt feel the same despair that Christians do at the thought of their being no God. Hes special.
Maybe youre like me, and like i said i love Kierkegaard too... I remain a christian not because of the truth values --- it could all be made up --- but because I love Jesus. in the words of Peter, "where else will we go?"
So anyway, again, this was long and thanks for letting me share. I hope this is read and I hope it helps somebody. peace be with you all!
man. you seem like a really interesting person. thanks for this comment. i’m somewhat familiar with Slavoj. not gonna lie, i actually felt like i would LOVE him but it’s so difficult to get past his incessant sniffing and wiping his nose mixed with the very thick accent lol. it takes such concentration but maaaan he’s sharp. i shall give him another shot. “when god became an atheist” is my kinda heresy lol
when it comes to despair around god, i have found despair just as deeply as i have when i was with god.
but this is really good stuff to chase down and think on. thanks for chiming in. grace to you on your journey max.
@@flightsfeelings
ua-cam.com/video/ukRYFoPCwEQ/v-deo.html
there's a synthwave track of the clip from the debate.
there are a lot of youtubers on philosophy side of YT that deal with zizek, including Sisyphus55 and Julian DeMuertos. Julian has a couple videos explaining zizeks "Christian atheism".
zizek has also wrote a book with that title coming out this year. I've tried reading zizek in the past 📚 but his style is dense and im not familiar enough with continental philosophy yet. but better yet to go back to the source. G.K. Chesterton's Orthodoxy is short. ten chapters, a couple hundred pages. thats the book I wish I had been given before I became disillusioned with evangelicalism and started the ball rolling toward skepticism.
im not trying to bring you back into the faith or anything, im just excited 😁 zizek is fun to share because he's one of the few atheist philosphers who is willing to discuss Christian metaphysics in a meaningful, insightful, modern way. my atheist friends don't care and my Christian friends pee their pants out of fear, so there's nobody to talk to about it. but I like his ideas, for personal reasons, and it gets me goin. thanks again for letting me share. zizek is a living legend of philosophy, but I totally understand he's hard to listen to.
@@flightsfeelings i made a followup comment but i don't think yt punished it. thanks for the reply. peace
31:09 I wrestled with that also that’s why I don’t read the Bible straight through no more
So as I’m on the way to work listening to this video I see a billboard that’s says “Without reasonable doubt, Jesus is Alive.” Because our doubt is ABSOLUTELY reasonable. Faith can be illogical&give cult vibes. We shouldn’t follow anything blindly. Question everything. I believe Yaweh enjoys your desire for truth and curious mind.
at about 25-26 min, i think you're getting at the concept of Linguistic determinism
possibly
Really honest reflections here man! You ever read some Dostoyevsky? He’s a good go to for existentialism! The Karamazov Brothers is really good! Tome of a read though
man i've been trying to finish Crime and Punishment for like a year now lol. i just cracked it back open a couple weeks ago. 600+ pages is tough lol
You said correct you if you’re wrong so…. You have faith that you’re gonna wake up in the morning, faith that when eat food your intestines will digest it, faith that your camera worked for this video….. but faith is illogical? I hope I’m not misunderstanding your conclusion….. but if I am, you’re making your own version of God instead of having faith in the absolute truth of who God is….. which would be illogical in and of itself. It’s like not having faith that the man who made the instruction manual of a table or your car is the creator of it and everyone around is telling “Nope, that’s him”. It’s either everyone’s in a cult, or I’m in a matrix.
yes because because believing a camera will turn on is the same as believing all the claims of the bible. you’re so smart and right. i don’t even think this warrants a real response from me because your insight is so wise and inscrutable.
@@flightsfeelings You said faith is illogical but you use it all day long, that was the point bro.
oh no i got the point. i just think it’s such a bad argument that i wasn’t even gonna even it serious reply lol
Ah this is just a young boy acting rebellious. He is going to be fine.
ima stop deleting all the the ridiculous comments i get from christians. just gonna leave em up so people can see how wild yall are.
Acting? Don’t genuinely believe that his current position is simply a byproduct of young angst and rebellion?
Ephesians 4:29 ESV
Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.
A few years ago, the most googled question about him was 'how old is Joseph Solomon?' he's not a 'young boy' but a mature man who has wrestled for YEARS and is very well versed in this conversation. Do you have no empathy? do you think this is a game for him or he wants clout? Do you know how much it would have cost him to go through this process?
If you don't agree, move on. But to say something so patronizing and to reduce all his work to some 'teenage angsty phase' is completely beyond me. Honestly, it's embarrassing. I fear what atheists and agnostics will take away from this comment section...
@@chikineeter I only said he will get over this phase of his life. If he once tested the goodness of the Lord and strongly stood for it he will find his way back. He doesn’t seem entirely lost as far as am concerned.
Joseph, one thing I will commend on you is stepping down from ministry while you are deconstructing your faith. It was very bold of you especially since you were making good money from it.
Okay this is completely off topic but that lighting setup is awesome
A lot of things man has instituted through traditions (eg creeds of various denominations), even making it the end all be all if to one is or is not one of the faith. Man can overcomplicate things, but ultimately, and it made me so stressed and confused when I became a believer. But through growth God helped me understand the Bible makes it simple. The whole duty of man is to fear Elohim and keep His Torah, Ecclesiastes 12:13. Yeshua said we will know who a person is by their fruit in Matthew 7:15-20. We don't have to overcomplicate things or view things through a greek mindset that has been kindv'e perpetuated into our belief systems. We are to believe in the Fathers Son and love God and others through keeping His Torah (1 John 3:23, 1 John 5:3). A thing that helps a lot in my study is examining the Hebrew context of the Scriptures, and examining the Bible as one cohesive book rather New Testament vs Old Testament. In the Torah a testimony is established on the account of two or three witnesses, and I know some people are skeptical on how to understand Sculpture, and what is the correct application/interpretation of the Scripture, but something that helps me in my study is when I'm having two or 3+ witnesses of that interpretation consistently in the Scriptures. I say this just in case it may help you in the future in your studies and gaining understanding. Thank you for your transparency with us!!
5:23 - incorrect. the fundamental construct of everything is order/logic. This is why the LOGOS is conducive to LOGIC
It's me again Margaret.
Still to get to Keikegard. He on my TBR list.
I read novels as a pastime but Dostoyevsky's works are dense and require commitment to get past the threshold where enough steam has been gathered, in my experience.
I think all of your rational arguments about the validity of Scripture will remain standing as long as you don’t take into consideration that “All scripture is God-breathed…” (2 Tim.3:16).
A core belief of Christianity and faith is exactly the fact that the rational mind can only go so far. To believe in God, is to accept that He is far too great to be understood and explained by our rational, limited mind and experience.
“a core belief is that the rational mind can go so far…” i swear yall don’t actually listen to what i be saying in these videos. yall watch like two minutes and then just wanna disagree. it’s so obvious.
Did you ever end up looking into other Christian expressions? My search for Christ led me to leaving Western Evangelicalism and going East. The mysticism of Eastern Orthodoxy and our choice of not trying to pack everything into legal language is what showed me that mysticism is needed in life. Whether or not you return to the faith, I do think it is necessary for these conversations to be had so that we are constantly challenged to review and investigate why we believe what we do.
I would love to have a conversation with you to just really get into why you chose your path away from the truth. I’m definitely a firm believer in Jesus Christ. And by the way, everything biblical is factual and evident. Especially Jesus the Messiah…let’s link
i’m good fam
There are people that speak/read/write Aramaic and who also fluently read/write/speak in English to this day. I’m pretty sure there would have been whistle blowers if translations were all that different. People get caught up in trivial things. Anyway, I hope you come back to the faith and believe in Jesus as the son of God. Hopefully, the Holy Spirit convicts you. It may already be happening since you’re taking the time out to make this video. You’d realize you are like the prodigal son. Also, if you were truly a believer you would know that you can ask God to show you himself. It’s worth it and I think he loves you that much to show you. ❤❤❤
but i literally said in this video that even knowing this about translations, you could believe in inerrancy of the bible. that was me intentionally not making a big deal about this point. i had other much more important points. maybe it’s possible you’re the one who got caught up in trivial things?
“also if you were truly a believer you would know that you an god to show you himself” you think i was a christian decades and never thought to ask that? lol yes i asked and pleaded with god many times before. now i am here.
@@flightsfeelings
I didn’t say that “you” get caught up in trivial things. I said “people”. But you did say there is a translation issue. It’s still a trivial point. The Bible is inspired through Gods spirit. And still the word of God is also alive and powerful. It’s sharper than the sharpest two-edge sword, cutting between, soul and spirit, between bone and marrow. It exposes the inner most thoughts and desires. My honest opinion is that the spirit is trying to convict you. The Bible tells us that in the last days some will turn away from the faith and follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. Anyway, I am just a vessel so I’m just here to be used by God. Nothing more nothing less.
👌🏽
i’m only 6 minutes in and i have a question. do you think that love is rational ? isn’t that an argument of the christian faith? that god is love. so does that mean that god CAN exist within a disordered system?
also, you’re work is like phd level! very insightful and thought provoking!!
Also, commenting for the algorithm.
Thanks fo sharing.
appreciate that!
its very interesting to see the shift from your earlier apologetic stance to your now very philosophical almost mathematical worldview. These days you appear hyper-rational as before you were more apologetic/unscientific
perhaps at the heart of this shift lies the reasons behind your faith complex.
Addressing rationality, consider greek LOGOS
- in the beginning was the word (logos) and the word was God.
further greek supplication of logos is that it is the foundation for logic and reasoning, hence LOGOS corresponding with LOGIC
well i think people may make the mistake of oversimplifying people’s experience because of certain snapshots. i’ve been guilty of this too. but this isn’t a shift, per se. the thoughts i share today aren’t much different than thoughts ive had for over a decade, just more developed. people would ask me “was this more of a logical decision or an emotional decision?” and i’d quickly say, “Both!”. it’s not a faith complex but faith (or lack thereof) is complex. i know that im too dynamic of a human (as we all are) to think my grand decisions lay in one single basket or the other.
@@flightsfeelings My apologies for the oversimplification. I would agree that "developed" is the better word, what i was trying to say in my earlier message is that you appear more logically refined. Now i haven't watched every video but i recall - approximately 6 years ago in my college dorm how pivotal your "shadow of a doubt" was for me during my own sort of intellectual faith struggle. Believers tend to disregard logic,/consider it the work of the "enemy", i ee this as a fundamnetal fundamentalist problem, in no way shape or form Christianity, more so human struggle. Years later i too took a departure from more so Church culture/ fundamentalist dogma instead of Christian doctrine. As you said part of you still very much believes in Jesus, i imagine this is testament to the notion that Christian doctrine holds core existential truth. i guess what im trying to say is thanks, thanks for being so raw and honest.. on the internet at that. shadow of a doubt is still hands down one of my favorite.
Anyone compiled a list of the books Joe mentioned here?
hey ! might be a dumb question but do you still believe in hell or such a place ? genuine question
i do not confidently or actively believe in any type of afterlife.
I love your covers, I always check your channel for new covers. However, I have to be brutally honest with you, you've left Christianity but you're still getting clout off the name "Jesus". You can't claim to leave a girl and constantly talk about her, especially if it's in the negative way. It's just a sign you haven't moved on🤷🏾 Jesus is real and that's a fact you'll never deny. You're mostly led by your feelings which are supported by books written by atheists to comfort your perspectives. Whether you follow Christ or leave him, He'll still be God
and i could say christians are mostly led by feelings which are supported by books written by christians. and what would that prove? but the funny part about you saying “supported by books written by atheists” is that the main book talked about in this particular video is from a christian author. and the last video that i discussed a book at length was ALSO from a christian author, both of whom i had very much to agree with on. so fam just say you’ve already formed an opinion of me without actually paying attention. and that’s okay. you don’t have to pay attention. this is a small channel with very long videos. just don’t pretend to have a read on someone, that’s all.
do i have permission to also be brutally honest? i gotta call bs. y’all keep saying “you’re not over it if you keep talking about it”, yet don’t follow your own logic. y’all say yall tired of hearing me talking about yet yall keep coming to watch me talk about it lol so in the same respect, if you really believe what i’m saying is a bunch of feelings and clout chasing, just don’t watch fam. it’s really that easy.
i disagree that it’s a sign he hasn’t moved on. regardless of his current position, this was all apart of his journey. he can speak on his journey. it has largely shaped who he is today. he never speaks on the topic of Jesus bitterly or angrily, just simply sharing his experience & that’s cool.
I don’t believe you never knew Jesus. You’re allowing Satan to take you on his journey. I’ll pray that you’ll be guided to accept Christ as your savior.
not interested in conversing with anyone who makes a demon out of honest inquiry.
@@flightsfeelings honesty, but is it true? You could be honest but just wrong. So where do that gets you and people that adhere to it? It’s like you are missing the one key element of being a believer an that’s Faith. Seem to be leaning unto your own understanding. When God said
Mark 10:25 states, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.”
He was not just talking about material possessions but being rich in any area, so much so, that you lean on that before Him. Basically that’s your comfort, your backbone and ultimately your God. I pray you seek Him diligently and wholeheartedly. It’s interesting and funny how we use other books which have other authors to teach us about The Book with The Author.
Not saying there is no merit or value doing further research but do you need it? I would argue no. It gives you all you NEED. Need being the key word. Now it’s time to trust Him.
@@kingjay1524 “you could be honest but just wrong.” i could be. and yet i’m willing to bet you don’t think that could be you: honest and wrong.
Nah brother. I’m minutes in and you’re only confusing yourself even more. I wish I could sit and talk to you. You seem smart, but comments won’t do it.
lol yall be so self-unaware. fam be honest with yourself. ask yourself… why would anyone wanna talk to someone whose knee-jerk reaction to me is to say “you were never a christian.” ? be for real. there’s nothing discuss. you talk about intellectual vs heart and yet all your words to me are all intellectual jabs and no heart. why would i want to talk to you?
Will comment as I go! About here [[ 6:35 ]] in the video. Quick thought: The idea that the Earth is *perfectly* positioned for life to exist is a bit of a false claim IMO. The Earth’s orbit is elliptical, so it changes all the time. It’s closest to the sun in January and farthest from the sun in July. It’s a bit of a technicality, but I’ve heard people really, really stress the absolute *precision* of the distance of the Earth as an argument for fine-tuning and it simply doesn’t hold water if we’re looking THAT closely.
Listen, if we’re a REAL apostate, the Bible says that it is impossible to be renewed unto repentance. So either there was no REAL relationship with Jesus, or we’re damned.
lol cool
Prayers to your hip socket my brother.
You should read “The Language of Creation” by Matthieu Pageau
researching pageau currently. the only credibility stamp i can find so far is jordan peterson. people pointing out lack of cross referencing and bibliography. doesn’t seem scholarly. i’m not currently interested in non-scholarly interpretations of genesis. your counter thoughts? may i ask what you found intriguing or persuasive about his writing?
@@flightsfeelings yeah I really don't think it's meant to be a scholarly book, so perhaps it's not what you want. Still, I think it's worthwhile because it personally affected me. Individuals who have a natural creative instinct (myself included) have an easier way of understanding elements of the world when laid out in a "story" format. I think a lot of the modern apologetics really abandon the mystery of the story we're all living in, trying to prove elements of the text with rationalism/reason. But at the heart of this all is really a story. (And stories can be truer than reality.) We even view our lives in this way but typically don't take the time to realize it until something major occurs. (For example, you don't take the time to write the best man speech 'til there's a wedding about to happen... or the euology until there's a funeral.) M. Pageau does a REALLY good job in that book of laying out how the ancients understood things in this fashion much more up front than we acknowledge today.
I could write a lot about this but the long and short of it is: if you're tired of materialism, it's a really good read. I'll end with a quote from the beginning of it:
"The story of the Garden of Eden describes a state of innocence, where humans occupied a central place in a relatively natural environment. This naive perspective conveniently provided humans with a full understanding of their role in the universe and the spiritual purpose of existence. However, the garden was also a sheltered place; it was a tiny portion of a much greater world. Therefore, as soon as humans looked beyond the limits of the garden, their 'eyes were opened' to a strange universe devoud of spiritual meaning. They 'knew that they were naked' and saw their previous bubble had been shattered, all attempts at 'covering it up' were in vain, and humans had no choice but to wander in a meaningless universe until they return to the ground. At the meta-cognitive level, the narrative of the fall perfectly matches the plight of humanity since the scientific revolution. So, even though these technical discoveries have locally debunked traditional cosmology, they have ironically proven its significance at a higher level. In general, the narratives of the Bible are about humanity's conflicted attempts to reconcile spiritual truth with physical reality in the hopes of acquiring divine knowledge. For that reason, the ancient stories of the Bible will survive and eventually transcend any scientific discovery, as long as we recognize that level of interpretation."
(I should note as well that Matthieu, the author, is the brother of Jonathan Pageau who runs the Symbolic World youtube channel. I had the pleasure of seeing both Jonathan and Jordan Peterson in person back in February- really interesting discussions.)
Oh I'm definitely a heretic lol. I've said that for a while. Do I believe many of the stories in the bible are historical? Not necessarily. I am a trinitarian. No. Do I believe the bible is infallible? No. Do I believe John wrote the book of john himself? Not convinced. But am I still a stonch follower of christ? Reading my bible everyday, praying everyday, fasting, fleeing from sin? As much as I possible can. Heretic through and through. And my life is better for it
the only way i could be christian in the future is by way of blatant heresy 😂
@@flightsfeelings Nah I feel you. The main reason I didn't deconvert fully (and stay deconverted) is because I got the details in bits and pieces over time. I don't believe because I know everything is necessarily true. I have looked through the history. Things don't add up. Stories don't line up with fact. Things are off in places. From adam and eve, noah, exodus. I mean we can go on. I think I could make many christians deconvert. But those things are just not why I believe anymore. And I'll be in church praying and speaking in tongues on sunday and through out my week lol. Something about spirtuality. Something about prayer. Something about it. Seems a necessary tenet to our human existence and to mine. So I choose to believe and I have found peace
Lmfaooooo I love this so so so much
Jesus is the only God that spoke in the spiritual World and then came and took on flesh and born in the physical world to prove that it was him the whole time, all those other so called gods can only speak in the spiritual world
ok
Joseph, I say this not to antagonize you, genuinely just curious of your thoughts.
I’ve questioned my faith for a solid 6 months, of course I’ve stumbled upon the likes of Bart Ehrman, and other objectors just like you have.
Now to the question,
Do you not think that IF there is a personable God that has revealed himself to humanity in a more relatable way, that Jesus is quite literally the best and only candidate?
I think so. I’ve wrestled with similar thoughts that you have had.
Looking at the fact that Christianity was and is the religion that has quite literally altered humanity in terms of literature, culture, language, music, history, science, all of these things at least give a credence of divine intervention whether Jesus did the things written in the book about him or not.
Like you said maybe being a “heretic” ain’t that bad. 😂
Best video so far!
What are you living for and why?
i’m sure you’d like to tell me
Joseph, did Christianity hurt you? Genuine question. Because you come off very defensive in the comments and it seems like you’re mad at a God who you don’t believe exists.
hello alysa! because this is a common misguided assumption about me, what i’m about to say in response will be a bit straightforward. and because text makes emotion vague, i ask that you for a moment imagine that i am simply speaking matter-of-factly and not combatively.
could you point me to specific comments on this video that has language that suggests anger at god? and i mean plural, because you seem to suggest that my disposition is a pattern and not just an isolated comment. could you point me to a specific quote(s) from this video that has language that suggests anger at god?
i don’t believe that if i defend my position, that im somehow automatically “defensive”. defending ≠ defensive.
in my videos, i have consistently critiqued and praised christian faith. i critiqued and praised christians. i even say in this video, that you’re currently commenting on, that im genuinely interested in faith but express where the rational hangups are.
if you believe where i currently stand is only hurt, then im convinced you dont actually watch, listen to or are willing to understand my videos. and thats fine if you dont, but its not fine to pretend you have taken time to honestly understand my position. if you dont know how to or dont wish to actually thoughtfully engage with intellectual conversation surrounding christian faith, then thats also fine. but its disingenuous and, dare i say, emotionally and intellectually lazy to simply say “oh he’s just hurt”.
so, i ask to you… did i hurt you? genuine question. because you come off very defensive in the comments and it seems like you’re mad at me for not believing god exists.
@@flightsfeelings I hear you. You’re streaming your consciousness and you should have the space to do so. No, you haven’t hurt me and no I’m not mad at you at all. I didn’t simply say “oh he’s hurt” though, I asked if you were so that I didn’t jump to assumptions.
At any rate, thank you for responding, and so thoughtfully at that. I’ve been following for a while so it’s nice to have a brief moment of connection.
@alysarenee3915 respectfully, even the question alone is not neutral. “did christianity hurt you?” is asked because you assumed my language in the comments suggested anger. at best, in question form, it is passive aggressively suggesting what is being asked. which is further shown in the next sentences which were not questions. you made a suggestion and ultimately an assumption. “you come off very defensive in the comments and it seems like you’re mad at a god who you don’t believe exists.” that’s not a question. that’s an assertion. it is an assumption you jumped to. stand on what you said tho fam. or if you believe it was wrong, you can openly backtrack it/apologize but let’s not feign ignorance fam. you made an unfounded assumption and i challenged it. it happens.
i appreciate the engagement. if you wish to continue to engage, all i ask is that you enter conversation in good faith and curiosity.
Im sorry Joseph, ive been following your journey just because im nosey i guess.
But stating "you dont know" on topic that are critical to peoples eternal life sounds careless.
Why do i say so?
Well you claim to be "leading people through their journey out of the belief" yet you know not enough to be sure that you might be wrong.
how is it careless to be honest? if after all, you truly don’t know, i believe it’s careless when people pretend to act like they do. my “i don’t know” isn’t “i haven’t cared to even think or read through these things”. my “i don’t know” is “i’ve read and thought a lot and continue to do so, and i truly don’t know.” maybe one day i’ll have more certainty, and if so, i’ll probably share that and why. but the point of this channel is show where i currently am, not where i want to pretend i am. “leadership” on this channel is not simply “knowing” the way, but being bold enough to be honest when you don’t know. i wish more of your “leaders” would do the same.
@@flightsfeelings
You're right. In fact, I think one of the reasons people are leaving the church is because of leaders' unwillingness to admit their uncertainty about certain issues or questions within the church.
@@flightsfeelings i hear you joseph, and the intention behind my comment was coming from a friendly confrontation.
That being said..
we all have "i dont know"s, but i think what set us apart is knowing the magnitude behind every message we deliver.
Theres no problem sharing your journey as you do matter and your story matters, however i think because of what you do and the amount of influence you have, you should be careful.
Your videos are filled with insight and i guess encouragement to others who are journeying through their doubt but again i think it would be wise to really key on these "i dont knows" cause as you know and as u mentioned - Jesus is the key figure to the faith, and everything leads to Him and the end reveals Him.
Anyways, again, this is a friendly confrontation sir, i dont mean no harm. I continue to watch your videos regardless.
Thanks
well i’m not a christian. i’m not trying to get anyone to heaven (or into hell for that matter). and if jesus is so important, then it makes willingness to admit ignorance and error even more important. my channel first and foremost is not to encourage people who doubt, but offer encouragement to those who have already left or are on their way out, and catharsis for myself. christians, though they may be plentiful in the comments and though i may address them, are not my primary audience.
as said in this video, the unexamined christ is not worth having. if you are willing to put him on the altar, you may get him back.
@@flightsfeelings i hear you brother.
And i appreciate you for giving me the audience btw. Thank you!
"The unexamine Christ is not worth having" and i totally agree, my response to that however (as a christian) is from scripture where Christ says to Thomas who didnt want to believe unless He examines the wounds - , “Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed. Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:29
And i dont think this was anyway trying to disregard examining things and even these accounts found in scripture but going through them with the mind of - I know not but im willing to believe if i do see the provided evidence goes a long way. and i know God is good enough to reveal (no disrespect cause i did follow ur journey so im in no way direspecting your journey while u were still figuring and seeking things out)
Anyways, this is from a christian so my response and reaction might somewhat be biased according to you.
This is your honest opinion, but is it true? You could be honest but just wrong. So where do that gets you and people that adhere to it? It’s like you are missing the one key element of being a believer an that’s Faith. Seem to be leaning unto your own understanding. When God said
Mark 10:25 states, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.”
He was not just talking about material possessions but being rich in any area, so much so, that you lean on that before Him. Basically that’s your comfort, your backbone and ultimately your God. I pray you seek Him diligently and wholeheartedly. It’s interesting and funny how we use other books which have other authors to teach us about The Book with The Author.
Not saying there is no merit or value doing further research but do you need it? I would argue no. It gives you all you NEED. Need being the key word. Now it’s time to trust Him.
if you’d prefer to have an unexamined faith, that’s on you.
This the kind of people I want to talk.
Maybe you should tap in with Prophet Lovy Elias
Exit? Bro… I respect it. Respect it as in, God allows such decision. But, what kills me about the “I used to be Christian” folks is this strange idea that you have millions of years to figure it out. As if, the odds are on your side to live another 40-50 years. Then what? Your rendering of your “reading” gave you some deep insight as to what would be negotiated in front of God if the odds of Pascal’s wager don’t favor you. You got that much time?…Do the unbiased studying. That’s the problem with folks and their belief. They will claim to have studied it all but can’t conceptualize much of what is read.
You read (whatever it was) and conveyed, “I am no longer a Christian”. Paul says you never were a Christian according to this stance. You only chose mammon brother. Your decision doesn’t substantiate the truth. It just sheds light on a banality with atheism, or any other religion. You don’t really know Jesus, despite the mountain of evidence. There is more evidence for Jesus than any other figure in history. So, I’ll listen to the rest of your video, but I can almost guarantee, I’ve heard it before. Why? It’s not an intellectual issue, it’s a heart issue. No matter how calm you sound in front of that camera…. I’ll be praying. I’ve seen people come back into the fold. But, I’m sure I won’t hear anything new because I’ve listened and studied both sides; belief and disbelief and it always goes back to the heart.
“you don’t have millions of years”. so you suggest that the fear of losing time should force me to continue “believing” something i’m not convinced of? Pascal’s wager is your suggestion? this is a false dichotomy cooked with presuppositions.
i’m not an atheist. not a staunch materialist.
“there is more evidence for jesus than any figure in history”. this is categorically false lol. jesus being the most talked about figure today is not the same as him being the most historically documented person in history. historical evidence of what early followers thoughts of jesus is not the same as having evidence of the historical jesus himself. if you “listened and survived both sides” and not simply your favorite apologists, you’d know what we can know about the historical christ is actually quite obscure. to assert otherwise is a statement of large faith. give a list of all the testimonies from direct eyewitnesses of jesus life, death or resurrection. it’s not paul. i’ll wait… what we have are shared memories. and i said in this video that i don’t have an issue with this. there’s clearly something we can know and believe about jesus. i don’t have an issue with this. christian’s married to having inerrant direct eyewitness evidence of jesus are married to a dogma, not jesus.
if you listened to my video and the one before this, i repeatedly assert that belief in jesus is a matter of faith and not simply rational arguments. christian’s know this and yet also want to pretend as tho “mountains of evidence” somehow magically turn into faith. if yall weren’t always in war mode to disagree with any and everyone, you’d realize there’s actually plenty room for fruitful and even agreeable conversation.
“paul says you never were a christian” that’s great for paul. happy for him.
if you’re actually concerned about the state of my soul, then pray. engage in good faith convo. if you’re only concerned about being right, then in your mind you’re already right. i’m genuinely confused as to why christian’s think telling me over and over that i was never christian is supposed to make me wanna be a christian again. but again, if your goal is not actually to see me come to faith, then what’s the point of this whole comment? i haven’t disparaged those who have faith or the faith itself. only gave my personal stance. so there’s no one to defend. there’s nothing to discuss. you’re right. i’m wrong. i’ll continue to be wrong in my corner of the internet. and you can continue being right in yours.
This is what I’ve been trying to say!!! The church has made cardinal beliefs about things we cannot prove. What makes someone a Christian is that they believe and follow the teachings of Christ, not beliefs they hold about Christ.
I agree with you but I think being a Christian is both; we believe & follow the teachings of Jesus Christ BECAUSE of what we believe about Jesus Christ.
Whats missing from this is have you encountered Jesus ? When you supernaturally encounter the living God there isn’t any turning back
When ppl are led by the wrong shepherd and don't read the Bible then yes they don't know what they believe but when you sit under a preacher chosen by Christ that reads and shares the Gospel and you yourself read the Bible then one begins to see the world and that the Bible foretold and is the Only Truth to foretell what happened then, now and the future....many ppl question cuz they never Read the Bible but once you do you see science etc in the Bible before things of today even knew it
It doesn't even seem like Christians follow the teachings of Christ at this point🥲