The extractor drone heal seems to be a bug. The code for cancelling a building contains the lines auto prev_hp = fp8::integer(u->previous_hp); if (unit_is(u, UnitTypes::Zerg_Extractor)) { unit_t* drone = create_unit(UnitTypes::Zerg_Drone, u->sprite->position, u->owner); if (drone) { finish_building_unit(drone); complete_unit(drone); set_unit_hp(drone, prev_hp); } else { display_last_error_for_player(u->owner); } kill_unit(u); The problem here is that u->previous_hp does not hold the HP that the drone which constructed the extractor previously had, as you would expect. That's because drones do not morph into extractors. Rather, the drone is killed and then the geyser is morphed into an extractor with ownership changed to the drone's owner. You can see this in the order_DroneBuild function. if (unit_is(build_type, UnitTypes::Zerg_Extractor)) { unit_t* build_unit = build_refinery(u, build_type); if (build_unit) { u->user_action_flags |= 4; kill_unit(u); zerg_building_start_construction(build_unit); create_image(get_image_type(ImageTypes::IMAGEID_Vespene_Geyser2), build_unit->sprite, {}, image_order_below); } else { done(); } } else { add_completed_unit(u, -1, false); u_unset_status_flag(u, unit_t::status_flag_completed); morph_unit(u, build_type); zerg_building_start_construction(u); See, the code for extractors runs build_refinery (which actually morphs the geyser into a refinery, assimilator, or extractor and changes ownership) and then kill_unit on the drone. But the code for other buildings runs morph_unit on the drone. So for extractors, u->previous_hp actually stores the HP that the *geyser* had, which for whatever reason is 100000 by default. So set_unit_hp tries to set the drone's current HP to 100 thousand, but since that exceeds the drone's max HP of 40, it sets it to 40 instead.
@@ozar_midrashim Like niamhleeson3522 said, it's the openbw code. It's reverse-engineered, not copied from the actual source code of the game. We don't know what the real source code looks like, but we do know how the game actually behaves, so we can write code that behaves exactly the same way. That's the basic idea.
3:10 -- there's actually *A BIT MORE to that whole thing* about Drones regaining their health when starting + cancelling an Extractor, *but NOT **_ANY OTHER_** building...* They actually lose their "control-grouping" too when starting an Extractor... You see, it's weird... In *ALL other buildings' cases* , when you start spawning the building with your drone, *that BUILDING actually retains the control grouping of the Drone !!* So, for example, if you start a Queen's Nest (just an example, it's the same for them all, *_except_** Extractor* ), and you had Drone grouped to Control-1 ... pressing 1 will ... *...pressing 1 will.... select that Queen's Nest !!* ... BOTH during its construction *AND **_AFTER_** its completion !! :D* So, in a sense... The Drone has actually... *BECOME that building !! :D* In the case of an Extractor, however, *it's different !!* ... The Drone is actually *REMOVED FROM THE GAME* upon initiating construction, so upon cancellation of a spawning Extractor, what happens is actually that *A NEW DRONE gets created !!* Weird, but it's there for a reason, due to various balance / ВUG exploits that were in use in the past precisely concerning the drone + geyser + extractor interaction !! :) .
When a drone builds a non-extractor building, the game runs the morph_unit function on the drone at some point to turn it into the target building. But when Terran or Protoss builds a refinery or assimilator, the game runs morph_unit on the geyser, transforming it into the target building. (It also transfers ownership to the builder.) So what to do when a drone makes an extractor? The way the coders decided to handle this was to morph the geyser into an extractor and just kill the drone. If you cancel an extractor, it morphs it back into a geyser, transfers ownership back to the neutral player, partially refunds the cost, and then spawns a new drone. When it spawns this new drone, it tries to set its HP to the HP of the old drone, but the way it does this is flawed. It accidentally sets its HP to the HP of the old geyser, which is 100000 by default, but it gets capped at the drone's max HP of 40. This also explains why the drone loses its spot in a control group. It's actually a brand new drone, so it was never in that control group in the first place.
@@EebstertheGreat You can learn something about this game even 26 years later. I knew about the new drone being made, but I didn't know about the HP setting bug. Thanks.
This style looks like it's a nightmare to control, but that early game aggression, the non-stop muta harassment looked SO strong. Not even implying the protoss was a worse player, but it looked like he could do nothing against it, even with the really good storms that he put, the zerg was so on top that not a single archon was able to morph
@@ObeliskM yeah thats sort of what I was thinking too, but honestly if you spend the gas on dark archons you are still probably going to have some trouble vs the hydras
@@EebstertheGreat still thats way too many dragoons, even to deal with lurkers. Not to mention that dark swarm would have made them useless soon. Flood of lings would have countered them as well, since Motive had zero archons and few zealots.
Purely as a theorycrafter, I find that this sort of stuff is better against protoss because they will just become too efficient over time if not pressed like this; heading to hive doesn't actually breed any benefits since whilst ur doing that the protoss can just turtle in these chockeholds with 0 pressure whilst getting more upgrades/energy and then will take a good fight late game and ur not coming back from it. It's also a lot easier for protoss to start harassing using shuttles etc late game compared to zerg so even if u managed to get a few extra bases they will not last long...
There's one unit protoss has that nearly completely shuts this muta-heavy style down, and that's the Dark Archon. For whatever reason, many pros seem to be allergic to them.
@@matrix3509 agreed but they require a crap load of gas though since you need them on top of high templar...and in this case gas was something that was in short supply since protoss was kept on 2 bases for a long time. The good news is maelstrom also efffects hydras/other bio, so once you get them going they are v cost effective. The last fight was so close 1-2 dark archons could've easiy turned it around.
@@trololkhil9868 That's true, but also I think the most difficult thing is being able to hide the Dark Archon from the roaming mutas before it has the energy for a maelstrom. If mutas fly into your base and find it before it has energy, they will 100% kill it, and you've basically lost the game at that point. So even tho Dark Archons are IMO the correct play in this situation, its much easier said than done when the mutas can almost freely fly into your base.
I think, on this map, this style from the Zerg makes a lot of sense. 3 gas is extremely easily accessed and defended from ground units (no real risk of zealots getting into an underdefended 3rd like on a normal map), and minerals are a lot more limited than normal, which makes the air harass killing/forcing more probes and static defense similarly more impactful in the long run. If Protoss doesn't get enough corsairs to shut down the Mutas early, they can very easily find damage by swinging around to the 2 side bases while still having plenty of time to attack the army in the center of the map, and ground units don't have an easy time working their way up the ramps into the expansions. By contrast, it's relatively more difficult for lurker/hydra, or any non-mech ground composition, to attack in, and kill a base, since it can't split units off to attack a 3rd, and containing with lurkers is a lot weaker than normal, because it won't deny the 3rd gas; Protoss will have an easier time busting out than on normal because they can get a higher templar count.
Really like HyuN's style. He was active and in Motive's face the entire game, even starting with his first sets of lings. Keeping pressure on your opponent is a really underrated skill in RTS. Remember the Motive's +1 zealot anti-timing? I bet HyuN's pressure had a lot to do with that! One thing I would like to see HyuN improve with this style is to take burrow and try to hide some burrowed lings along the protoss rally path. We saw some HT pickoffs with the mutas but I bet we'd see even more of them with more vision! Motive didn't make a lot of obs in this game (and we saw one get picked off near the end). Burrowed hydra counterattacks can also be a big thing!
That was very scary zerg. It's amazing to watch as Zerg has to non-stop attack with mutalisk and then overwhelm protoss in cinematic style but menaging that and actually moving those masses of units seems like nightmare. Zerg had to click nearly double as fast as Protoss this game, no wonder they are not very active on ladder one 20 minute game like this must be really tiring.
It's really been a while since people did this! Cool. So micro intensive though, if you don't have immaculate control those high templar will cause your flock of mutas to fold like a cheap suit. Two bad storms can cost you over 1k gas in mutalisks, it's nuts
I think this game was a textbook example of why modern PvZ revolves around corsairs so much. When unchecked, mutas beat everything Protoss has except maybe archons. If Motive scouted that HyuN is going mass muta + scourge, he could have made archons to help defend. In most ZvPs I've seen, Protoss at least trades corsairs/archons with mutas/scourges and the game goes back to ground units. HyuN's style looks more dominant, but it needs that clear air superiority.
Keeping them on their toes is the best style. Having the option to switch back and forth between threatening mutalisk harassment or a hydra lurker contain allows the Zerg player to dictate the flow of the game as they see fit.
The very mobile unit comp, seems very good on these quick-to-mine-out maps, where you need to keep expanding often. Really cool game on a very cool map!
Right?! You've got Lurkers, you've got Mutas, you've got Hydras. You've got QUEENS. Like, the only thing you're missing out on are cracklings and Defilers. Lair Zerg is already strong enough.
this game was so great, love to see zerg playing like this, reminds me of sc2 kind of a style and I think its a great pick for this map in particular. I think if Zergs really pushed this style they could use it to get an economy advantage they dont usually have in the match up. I also think that the Zerg did a great job keeping HT energy low the entire early game, one mistake into a storm and this build kind of crumbles right
I think that lurker/hydra is the strongest contain in the game and it takes a lot of discipline from toss to deal with it. So in general, it's probably a stronger style than this. However, unless toss is willing to go double stargate (which they won't if they expect a hydra/lurker bust/contain), this style can catch them off-guard and building from that, zerg can push their advantage (similar dynamic to PvT when toss can just gatewayman-bully their way in after a successful early aggression). Had Motive saved that Nexus, that would've made things different of course, but considering how zerg could afford the luxury of 60+ drones, this game seemed to be ended the moment those first 13 mutas came out.
You know who else makes pure Hydra/Muta? The Zerg Original AI. It just needs ages to get off, because it's on 1 hatchery for so long (until it makes about 12 Hydras, which on 1 hatch seems like an eon). If anyone wonders why, the patch 1.04 (when BW came out) slowed the larva spawning rate by 50%. In other words, the original Zerg AI was unintentionally nerfed.
nice game! For seeing purposes, this strategy (mass muta hydra) is funnier. IMAGINE playing with lurker positions should be a little bit more ..not easy, less macro intensive?
I noticed in the last engagement, Hyun flying over Motive's army with the mutalisks baited Motive into storming his own backline four times. I think if Motive saved those storms for the hydras instead it would have saved the new base and given him the game.
if he didnt storm he would have lost every templar instead of 4/6, the mutas take too long to die from just dragoons. I think he needed some archons and a dark archon but he was under so much pressure and usually zergs dont keep making mutas so he must have just not been able to recognize that in time
no. if he doesnt storm, all the templars die and 50 hydras will beat 15 dragons 1000% of the time. Protoss cannot beat hydras without storm. The ONLY play was spam storming and hoping the mutas dont kill at the HTs
After watching Stork's games during ASL/SSL and now this, wow what a difference. The level is much lower here, and no wonder motive didn't go to the next round to be honest.
The muta build seems to me that it is a VERY risky gamble. If you do not get rid of those Templars ASAP, you are doomed. The Lurker build seems safer and attempts to force a late game into Lurker Defiler comps. Different styles for different players of expertise. Makes me want to see SoulKey try something like this 😀 TY again RT Keep it up and I
For some reason, many Protoss's seem to be allergic to Dark Archons, even though they are by far the best choice when the Zerg goes all-in on mutas like Hyun did in this game. Dark Archons are THE most underrated unit in the game, and it seems like none but the most unorthodox Protoss pros ever use them. Hell, even if the only maelstrom you get off is on a group of hydras, its already paid for itself. There's basically no situation in PvZ where a Dark Archon is completely useless.
Hey I didn't get the point you made about lower resources per base = not as punishing if you lose map control? Don't you mine out even faster and get wrecked even harder? Map control guy can expand easier, no?
@@sagacity1071 Yeah, it feels so weird using random eggs or sunkens as simple obstacles. It's honestly why I prefer playing casually on Blizzard's maps only.
My feeling, watching pretty much every game you've posted for the last six months, is that lurker is increasingly a dead end against capable players. It isn't proactive enough and is so vulnerable to getting ground down by storms and irradiates unless the zerg's position is already impossibly far ahead. I don't remember the last game I saw where lurker was decisive, and I feel like I've watched a lot of zerg players in strong positions relying on lurker get ground down by the more proactive use of storm / irradiate to clean them up. Lurker feels like a throw right now.
Lurkers are defensive units so… that checks out. Not that hard to figure out how to play against them. They’ve never been a game winning scenario unit, in the entire history of competitive brood war. Hold position on them has also always been a decisive move. Getting them in a great position will always be decisive as well.
This video is about a StarCraft 2 game between Motive and Hun. The map they are playing on is Kickback. Motive is playing Zerg, while Hun is playing Protoss. In the beginning of the game, Motive does a successful runby, but Hun is able to defend well and get some early probes. Motive then goes for a heavy Zealot pressure, while Hun makes a lot of Zerglings. Mid-game, Hun gets a good storm off and kills a lot of Motive's Zealots. Motive then tries to go for a three base push, but Hun is able to defend with his Mutas and Hydras. Late game, Hun is able to take down Motive's fourth base and win the game. Here are some additional details about the game: * Motive's APM was 350. * Hun's APM was 450. * The game lasted 19 minutes and 56 seconds. * Motive used a lot of Zealots and Hydras. * Hun used a lot of Mutas and Hydras. * Hun's macro was very good. * Motive's micro was also very good. * This was a very close and exciting game.
SO APPARENTLY, WE'RE NO LONGER INTERESTED IN WATCHING THE GREATEST GAMER OF ALL TIME, THE PINNACLE MIND OF THE HUMAN SPECIES, PLAY BROOD WAR. BIG MISTAKE.
What do u mean his macro is insane?! he let his 5th die with all drones while he had 30+ hydra in front he literally drowned microing his hydra counter and didnt get anything done with them really - B rank zerg muta sniping templar is always nicer for the viewer
The extractor drone heal seems to be a bug. The code for cancelling a building contains the lines
auto prev_hp = fp8::integer(u->previous_hp);
if (unit_is(u, UnitTypes::Zerg_Extractor)) {
unit_t* drone = create_unit(UnitTypes::Zerg_Drone, u->sprite->position, u->owner);
if (drone) {
finish_building_unit(drone);
complete_unit(drone);
set_unit_hp(drone, prev_hp);
} else {
display_last_error_for_player(u->owner);
}
kill_unit(u);
The problem here is that u->previous_hp does not hold the HP that the drone which constructed the extractor previously had, as you would expect. That's because drones do not morph into extractors. Rather, the drone is killed and then the geyser is morphed into an extractor with ownership changed to the drone's owner. You can see this in the order_DroneBuild function.
if (unit_is(build_type, UnitTypes::Zerg_Extractor)) {
unit_t* build_unit = build_refinery(u, build_type);
if (build_unit) {
u->user_action_flags |= 4;
kill_unit(u);
zerg_building_start_construction(build_unit);
create_image(get_image_type(ImageTypes::IMAGEID_Vespene_Geyser2), build_unit->sprite, {}, image_order_below);
} else {
done();
}
} else {
add_completed_unit(u, -1, false);
u_unset_status_flag(u, unit_t::status_flag_completed);
morph_unit(u, build_type);
zerg_building_start_construction(u);
See, the code for extractors runs build_refinery (which actually morphs the geyser into a refinery, assimilator, or extractor and changes ownership) and then kill_unit on the drone. But the code for other buildings runs morph_unit on the drone.
So for extractors, u->previous_hp actually stores the HP that the *geyser* had, which for whatever reason is 100000 by default. So set_unit_hp tries to set the drone's current HP to 100 thousand, but since that exceeds the drone's max HP of 40, it sets it to 40 instead.
Did Blizzard open source their Starcraft code or something? This is way too specific, haha. Good job either way.
Maybe from the openbw source?
@@ozar_midrashim Like niamhleeson3522 said, it's the openbw code. It's reverse-engineered, not copied from the actual source code of the game. We don't know what the real source code looks like, but we do know how the game actually behaves, so we can write code that behaves exactly the same way. That's the basic idea.
PErFeCt fOr iTs FlaWs
Bwahaha, that's an oopsie.
every new style I see= 1 chill
3:10 -- there's actually *A BIT MORE to that whole thing* about Drones regaining their health when starting + cancelling an Extractor, *but NOT **_ANY OTHER_** building...*
They actually lose their "control-grouping" too when starting an Extractor...
You see, it's weird... In *ALL other buildings' cases* , when you start spawning the building with your drone, *that BUILDING actually retains the control grouping of the Drone !!*
So, for example, if you start a Queen's Nest (just an example, it's the same for them all, *_except_** Extractor* ), and you had Drone grouped to Control-1 ... pressing 1 will ...
*...pressing 1 will.... select that Queen's Nest !!* ... BOTH during its construction *AND **_AFTER_** its completion !! :D*
So, in a sense... The Drone has actually... *BECOME that building !! :D*
In the case of an Extractor, however, *it's different !!* ...
The Drone is actually *REMOVED FROM THE GAME* upon initiating construction, so upon cancellation of a spawning Extractor, what happens is actually that *A NEW DRONE gets created !!*
Weird, but it's there for a reason, due to various balance / ВUG exploits that were in use in the past precisely concerning the drone + geyser + extractor interaction !! :)
.
Thanks for explaining! I learned something new :)
Yes. That's why I sometimes hotkey my Drone before it's about to make an expansion. I still retain the hotkey once the Hatchery is up.
When a drone builds a non-extractor building, the game runs the morph_unit function on the drone at some point to turn it into the target building. But when Terran or Protoss builds a refinery or assimilator, the game runs morph_unit on the geyser, transforming it into the target building. (It also transfers ownership to the builder.) So what to do when a drone makes an extractor?
The way the coders decided to handle this was to morph the geyser into an extractor and just kill the drone. If you cancel an extractor, it morphs it back into a geyser, transfers ownership back to the neutral player, partially refunds the cost, and then spawns a new drone. When it spawns this new drone, it tries to set its HP to the HP of the old drone, but the way it does this is flawed. It accidentally sets its HP to the HP of the old geyser, which is 100000 by default, but it gets capped at the drone's max HP of 40.
This also explains why the drone loses its spot in a control group. It's actually a brand new drone, so it was never in that control group in the first place.
@@EebstertheGreat You can learn something about this game even 26 years later. I knew about the new drone being made, but I didn't know about the HP setting bug.
Thanks.
Does the kill count reset too? It does seem like the extractor cancel creates an entirely different drone.
Why netflix and chill when you can artosis and chills?
This style looks like it's a nightmare to control, but that early game aggression, the non-stop muta harassment looked SO strong. Not even implying the protoss was a worse player, but it looked like he could do nothing against it, even with the really good storms that he put, the zerg was so on top that not a single archon was able to morph
1-2 dark archons would have changed everything.
@@ObeliskM yeah thats sort of what I was thinking too, but honestly if you spend the gas on dark archons you are still probably going to have some trouble vs the hydras
@@BinxyBrown he could build less dragoons. He did not need that many. They suck vs mutas anyway.
@@ObeliskM Motive kept waiting for the lurkers to arrive.
@@EebstertheGreat still thats way too many dragoons, even to deal with lurkers. Not to mention that dark swarm would have made them useless soon. Flood of lings would have countered them as well, since Motive had zero archons and few zealots.
I feel this style is more entertaining
but the lurker Hydra defiler seems so hard to beat
Purely as a theorycrafter, I find that this sort of stuff is better against protoss because they will just become too efficient over time if not pressed like this; heading to hive doesn't actually breed any benefits since whilst ur doing that the protoss can just turtle in these chockeholds with 0 pressure whilst getting more upgrades/energy and then will take a good fight late game and ur not coming back from it.
It's also a lot easier for protoss to start harassing using shuttles etc late game compared to zerg so even if u managed to get a few extra bases they will not last long...
There's one unit protoss has that nearly completely shuts this muta-heavy style down, and that's the Dark Archon. For whatever reason, many pros seem to be allergic to them.
@@matrix3509 agreed but they require a crap load of gas though since you need them on top of high templar...and in this case gas was something that was in short supply since protoss was kept on 2 bases for a long time.
The good news is maelstrom also efffects hydras/other bio, so once you get them going they are v cost effective.
The last fight was so close 1-2 dark archons could've easiy turned it around.
@@matrix3509 I think Best is one of the only guys that uses them if memory serves
@@trololkhil9868 That's true, but also I think the most difficult thing is being able to hide the Dark Archon from the roaming mutas before it has the energy for a maelstrom.
If mutas fly into your base and find it before it has energy, they will 100% kill it, and you've basically lost the game at that point.
So even tho Dark Archons are IMO the correct play in this situation, its much easier said than done when the mutas can almost freely fly into your base.
It's funny how chill, calm and collected Artosis is casting those, but when I turn his stream on it's constant rage and yelling :D
I think, on this map, this style from the Zerg makes a lot of sense. 3 gas is extremely easily accessed and defended from ground units (no real risk of zealots getting into an underdefended 3rd like on a normal map), and minerals are a lot more limited than normal, which makes the air harass killing/forcing more probes and static defense similarly more impactful in the long run. If Protoss doesn't get enough corsairs to shut down the Mutas early, they can very easily find damage by swinging around to the 2 side bases while still having plenty of time to attack the army in the center of the map, and ground units don't have an easy time working their way up the ramps into the expansions.
By contrast, it's relatively more difficult for lurker/hydra, or any non-mech ground composition, to attack in, and kill a base, since it can't split units off to attack a 3rd, and containing with lurkers is a lot weaker than normal, because it won't deny the 3rd gas; Protoss will have an easier time busting out than on normal because they can get a higher templar count.
I'm excited to see this. I also like to see a Zerg who knows how to "get ahead" after the initial rush did enough damage. This was a perfect example.
Really like HyuN's style. He was active and in Motive's face the entire game, even starting with his first sets of lings. Keeping pressure on your opponent is a really underrated skill in RTS. Remember the Motive's +1 zealot anti-timing? I bet HyuN's pressure had a lot to do with that! One thing I would like to see HyuN improve with this style is to take burrow and try to hide some burrowed lings along the protoss rally path. We saw some HT pickoffs with the mutas but I bet we'd see even more of them with more vision! Motive didn't make a lot of obs in this game (and we saw one get picked off near the end). Burrowed hydra counterattacks can also be a big thing!
That was very scary zerg. It's amazing to watch as Zerg has to non-stop attack with mutalisk and then overwhelm protoss in cinematic style but menaging that and actually moving those masses of units seems like nightmare. Zerg had to click nearly double as fast as Protoss this game, no wonder they are not very active on ladder one 20 minute game like this must be really tiring.
07:25 -- did the protoss REALLY just initiate that major engagement ... *...just BEFORE his upgrade was finished ?? O_o ://*
Man...
you gotta keep the opponent guessing by constantly engaging in anti-timings
It's really been a while since people did this! Cool. So micro intensive though, if you don't have immaculate control those high templar will cause your flock of mutas to fold like a cheap suit. Two bad storms can cost you over 1k gas in mutalisks, it's nuts
I think this game was a textbook example of why modern PvZ revolves around corsairs so much. When unchecked, mutas beat everything Protoss has except maybe archons. If Motive scouted that HyuN is going mass muta + scourge, he could have made archons to help defend.
In most ZvPs I've seen, Protoss at least trades corsairs/archons with mutas/scourges and the game goes back to ground units. HyuN's style looks more dominant, but it needs that clear air superiority.
Thanks for the cast as always Artosis.
Keeping them on their toes is the best style. Having the option to switch back and forth between threatening mutalisk harassment or a hydra lurker contain allows the Zerg player to dictate the flow of the game as they see fit.
I've heard, Motive's "cheese" zealots still looking for Rush's base.
Definitely a style that's hard to micro with huge potential to lose everything to storms. But if done well it's powerful
Lore accurate zerg let's goo
The very mobile unit comp, seems very good on these quick-to-mine-out maps, where you need to keep expanding often. Really cool game on a very cool map!
Lair tech all day. More dynamic interactions possible
Right?! You've got Lurkers, you've got Mutas, you've got Hydras. You've got QUEENS. Like, the only thing you're missing out on are cracklings and Defilers.
Lair Zerg is already strong enough.
I think motive put up an excellent show this asl 😂
this game was so great, love to see zerg playing like this, reminds me of sc2 kind of a style and I think its a great pick for this map in particular. I think if Zergs really pushed this style they could use it to get an economy advantage they dont usually have in the match up. I also think that the Zerg did a great job keeping HT energy low the entire early game, one mistake into a storm and this build kind of crumbles right
Hydra / muta is super fun to watch, especially when it works
Arty i was eating and it was just the perfect length of the video. The 20 minute mark is magic. Keep that in mind and start your third earlier.
Zerg just constantly harassing Protoss seems like the play. Has worked for a long time :)
Best counter to this is maelstorm.
I don't know why even pro players won't utilize dark archons.
Motive did AMAZING at SSL/ASL! He provided a ton of entertainment for years to come!
I think that lurker/hydra is the strongest contain in the game and it takes a lot of discipline from toss to deal with it. So in general, it's probably a stronger style than this.
However, unless toss is willing to go double stargate (which they won't if they expect a hydra/lurker bust/contain), this style can catch them off-guard and building from that, zerg can push their advantage (similar dynamic to PvT when toss can just gatewayman-bully their way in after a successful early aggression). Had Motive saved that Nexus, that would've made things different of course, but considering how zerg could afford the luxury of 60+ drones, this game seemed to be ended the moment those first 13 mutas came out.
high templar snipe by muta gives me insane chills
Motive stormed his own templars. He had enough mana to storm only those hydras and win the game
18:35 Certified Donny Vermillion moment from RT
Hanging out here as usual. Today I am also waiting for Maynarde
You know who else makes pure Hydra/Muta?
The Zerg Original AI. It just needs ages to get off, because it's on 1 hatchery for so long (until it makes about 12 Hydras, which on 1 hatch seems like an eon). If anyone wonders why, the patch 1.04 (when BW came out) slowed the larva spawning rate by 50%. In other words, the original Zerg AI was unintentionally nerfed.
nice game! For seeing purposes, this strategy (mass muta hydra) is funnier. IMAGINE playing with lurker positions should be a little bit more ..not easy, less macro intensive?
Motive has huge balls for delaying his forge so much with lings in his base
I noticed in the last engagement, Hyun flying over Motive's army with the mutalisks baited Motive into storming his own backline four times. I think if Motive saved those storms for the hydras instead it would have saved the new base and given him the game.
if he didnt storm he would have lost every templar instead of 4/6, the mutas take too long to die from just dragoons. I think he needed some archons and a dark archon but he was under so much pressure and usually zergs dont keep making mutas so he must have just not been able to recognize that in time
no.
if he doesnt storm, all the templars die and 50 hydras will beat 15 dragons 1000% of the time.
Protoss cannot beat hydras without storm. The ONLY play was spam storming and hoping the mutas dont kill at the HTs
Wow, great advice, you should start mentoring pro players 🙄
Zerg is so HYPE!
I always love seeing good muta play
Every chill I get= 1 new style
a completely different chill
Oldschool zerg , its just good templar snipes , and missing corsairs , nr 1 unit zvp😊
How come the neutral sunken doesn't have creep for protoss? How does that work?
After watching Stork's games during ASL/SSL and now this, wow what a difference. The level is much lower here, and no wonder motive didn't go to the next round to be honest.
Ahh. So good to be here ❤
I feel hive tech is probably a little stronger. Although it depends on what you can do with the mutas.
Muta style, it gives me good chills
I hope motive doesn’t try some revolutionary cheese in this match…
the game was over halfway thru the cast
The muta build seems to me that it is a VERY risky gamble. If you do not get rid of those Templars ASAP, you are doomed. The Lurker build seems safer and attempts to force a late game into Lurker Defiler comps.
Different styles for different players of expertise. Makes me want to see SoulKey try something like this 😀
TY again RT Keep it up and I
For some reason, many Protoss's seem to be allergic to Dark Archons, even though they are by far the best choice when the Zerg goes all-in on mutas like Hyun did in this game. Dark Archons are THE most underrated unit in the game, and it seems like none but the most unorthodox Protoss pros ever use them. Hell, even if the only maelstrom you get off is on a group of hydras, its already paid for itself. There's basically no situation in PvZ where a Dark Archon is completely useless.
Protoss So IMBA.
That was so awesome.
With this style you need the RED archon, since you dont have air units and dragoons vs mutas suck.
Artosis Chills
Do you think Motive would rather win CNSL or be knocked out of the Ro24 in SSL?
I much prefer this zerg style. What's anti timing?
I prefer the mutalisk style. Because they are missile attacks.
this is the new way
I prefer to play agaisnt this style lol. Eff Lurkers.
Hey I didn't get the point you made about lower resources per base = not as punishing if you lose map control? Don't you mine out even faster and get wrecked even harder? Map control guy can expand easier, no?
wasted all those storms on the mutas
agreed with the titles
If Protoss invested in Maesltrom vs Mutas it would negate their ability to crush bases and defenses like that. 1 Mael + storm and they're gone. 🤷♂
Why didn't Motive make a Dark Archon and maelstorm the Mutas? Even if HyuN stopped making muats maelstorm still has value against Hydras.
how about subtext in the title the players playing?
after the huge fiasco at SSL, he is still making horrible decisions
Is artosis ok? He has not uploaded yet wtf
why doesnt SSL show the production tab like your casts here?
These casts are watching replay files.
SSL games are observed live and do not have that functionality.
13 mutas = 13 chills
Dark archon is the key vs zerg using mutas mid/late game ...
There has to be one intern at blizzard that gives enough shits to make a couple sprites for multiplayer use.... so we dont have random sunks.
@@sagacity1071 Yeah, it feels so weird using random eggs or sunkens as simple obstacles.
It's honestly why I prefer playing casually on Blizzard's maps only.
Artosis CHILLAX 😊
front facing baby chick
I miss flash...
With ASL and RT i cant keep up with all the video's 😅
Artosis has a crush on Motive
Mutas always fun
I like Deja Vu
muta hydra is more entertaining than defiler play
My feeling, watching pretty much every game you've posted for the last six months, is that lurker is increasingly a dead end against capable players. It isn't proactive enough and is so vulnerable to getting ground down by storms and irradiates unless the zerg's position is already impossibly far ahead.
I don't remember the last game I saw where lurker was decisive, and I feel like I've watched a lot of zerg players in strong positions relying on lurker get ground down by the more proactive use of storm / irradiate to clean them up.
Lurker feels like a throw right now.
Devourer = useless. And now Lurkers, too.
Finally someone said it, Brood War was a mistake.
Lurkers are defensive units so… that checks out. Not that hard to figure out how to play against them. They’ve never been a game winning scenario unit, in the entire history of competitive brood war. Hold position on them has also always been a decisive move. Getting them in a great position will always be decisive as well.
This video is about a StarCraft 2 game between Motive and Hun. The map they are playing on is Kickback. Motive is playing Zerg, while Hun is playing Protoss.
In the beginning of the game, Motive does a successful runby, but Hun is able to defend well and get some early probes. Motive then goes for a heavy Zealot pressure, while Hun makes a lot of Zerglings.
Mid-game, Hun gets a good storm off and kills a lot of Motive's Zealots. Motive then tries to go for a three base push, but Hun is able to defend with his Mutas and Hydras.
Late game, Hun is able to take down Motive's fourth base and win the game.
Here are some additional details about the game:
* Motive's APM was 350.
* Hun's APM was 450.
* The game lasted 19 minutes and 56 seconds.
* Motive used a lot of Zealots and Hydras.
* Hun used a lot of Mutas and Hydras.
* Hun's macro was very good.
* Motive's micro was also very good.
* This was a very close and exciting game.
Huh?
Begone AI slop
Small Game Hunters
SO APPARENTLY, WE'RE NO LONGER INTERESTED IN WATCHING THE GREATEST GAMER OF ALL TIME, THE PINNACLE MIND OF THE HUMAN SPECIES, PLAY BROOD WAR. BIG MISTAKE.
We prefer super active muta style
As a protoss I hate Kickback
Cool style if you have like 500 APM
Posted 7 seconds ago. Man, I'm early.
Also, great game!
"no views", may be the first time I saw this
.
ggs
gg
Slightly too early gg maybe ?
Can you please not zoom out so much, I think Artosis forgets that we watch this on our phones and when he zooms out so much you cant see as well.
Cant see anything anyway with 360p
Zerg is unfair race
GG
useless psynic storms
What do u mean his macro is insane?! he let his 5th die with all drones while he had 30+ hydra in front
he literally drowned microing his hydra counter and didnt get anything done with them really - B rank zerg
muta sniping templar is always nicer for the viewer
gtfo lurker, hydra is the best
Where's Flash?
Comments