Also gotta admit jim and mark do a great job facilitating the conversation, It's obvious they ask questions they know the answers to frame the podcast as a listener who doesn't know as much about cartridges, with that said I wish there was an elementary and advanced talk about the same cartridges
I'd love to see a 10 minute talk on .450 Bushmaster or .350 Legend load data or capabilities. I love that Ryan has some really niche and interesting info like hinting at his reloading buddies' secret sauce for .280 Ackley Improved video. (Would *love* to see a further explanation of that data as well btw.) Every time I see you guys put a video out I'm like "Welp, gotta get a .280 Ackley." "Well, time to get a .350 Legend." "Gee, time to get a 6.8 Western." Haven't done any of that yet as I'm working towards building out a .300 WinMag for my move up to Alaska next year. Also will be going hunting for the very first time this year with a .270 WSM rifle, chosen in part due to Mark's dogged love of his .300 Whizzm.
Super cool, Thomas! We'll certainly add those to the list - we appreciate it! The beautiful thing about firearms is there is always room for one more ;) Good luck on your hunt! Keep us posted with how it goes.
Been hunting deer with a Marlin 44mag since 2005. Ive lost track of how many deer ive killed but what I do know is ive never had a deer go more than 30 yards in that time. 🤠
For the next 10 minute cartridge talk, the 250 savage (first cartridge to reach the 3000fps barrier), or the 300 savage (parent cartridge of the 308 Winchester), would be fantastic.
357 magnum, single shot break action, with a 3x9x40 scope on top. This rifle will use all the 38sp and +P stuff. Seems to be a good supply of factory 357 ammo and I handload. This brings out a complete new chapter for the 357 Magnum cartridge. 110-125 grain, HP for PSD. The heavy bullets, 130-180 grain for Hunting. Deer and Feral Hogs have been taken. LHCSWC 158 grain on top of 13 grains of Little Gun. A 125 HP at 100 yards will turn a groundhog inside out.
Love listening to you guys. I love the way you all discuss things. Ryan is a great guy, to be as smart as he is with history and firearm knowledge but never to me comes off as a know-it-all. Even though sometimes I don't always agree with everything he says due to what I was taught and read in the past. It is still a preveledge to hear from is knowledge and point of view, just to learn more or brings me to do more research on my end. All of you a smart and professional guys that I listen to on hear. Just thanks to all of you and please keep it going. 💯
I totally agree, 45/70 is the class of the field.. I had a friend back in the eighties who used to shoot 357 maximum and he loved it I totally agree with Ryan. 357 maximum in AR platform... I am absolutely down With that, Coming from A 45/70 fanboy , That should tell you something
That is certainly an intriguing combination. I love the 45-70 as well. Straight wall rifle cartridges just do what they do really, really well. I’m partial to lever actions too though, so I’m probably biased.
Metal cartridges with a neck or taper open up higher pressures, which leads to speed. Prior to that, power could only be achieved with heavier bullets at lower speeds, so we got to .72! The 30-30 started it, being the first smokeless and being used by the lever actions that were designed for the pressure.
Great video. Full of good info. P.S. I live in Illinois and 2023 was the first year that single shot rifles were allowed for deer hunting. Prior to this year, it was shot guns with slugs, muzzleloaders. Effective Jan. 1, 2023, the legal calibers for single-shot rifles in Illinois are: a bottleneck centerfire cartridge of .30 caliber or larger with a case length not exceeding one and two-fifths inches, OR a straight-walled centerfire cartridge of .30 caliber or larger. Both must be available as a factory load with the published ballistic tables of the manufacturer showing a capability of at least 500-foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. Full-metal jacket bullets may not be used to harvest deer. The cartridge can not be .50 caliber or greater. These caliber specifications are the same that hunters may be familiar with for handgun deer hunting in previous years. The barrel of a handgun shall be at least 4 inches. "Single shot" means a gun that is either manufactured or modified to only be capable of holding a total of one round in the magazine and chamber combined. "Single shot" does not include a rifle in the possession of a person who is also in possession of or in close proximity to a magazine that would allow the rifle to be capable of holding more than one round or a revolver. A rifle shall be considered a single shot if there is no magazine in possession of or in close proximity to a hunter in the field and the gun can only hold a total of one round.
Great overview of some fun cartridges. I for one have been thinking 🤔 about a few of them. I have two bottleneck cartridges in the .270 Win and .300 WSM, but outside of my CVA Optima V2 50 cal I don’t have any rifles or slug guns to take to my neighboring state of Ohio (I live in West Virginia) where my wife’s Mom and Stepdad live. I was interested before I recently got married. I have a quandary in that part of me likes the .450 BM in the same gun that you have on the table in the Ruger American Go Wild (but the 22 in barrel). I almost bought a standard A2 style upper in the bargain cave of Cabela’s multiple times 6+ years ago but never pulled the trigger. The other part of me really really wants a lever gun. I just love everything about them. They have such a cool 😎 factor, Cowboy action, a fun repeater, etc… So I have thought about the classic 45/70 Government, the 444 Marlin or 44 Mag. My youngest brother and Dad both have 30/30s so I want something larger. My youngest brother has the 350 Legend in an AR which is fun, he might let me borrow it if needed. I have thought about that same 350 Legend on the table for my wife as her first gun. No recoil and pre 2020 not too expensive ammo wise.
I chose to add a 350 legend upper to my arsenal because 350 legend ammo was on the shelf at quite a few Walmarts that I stopped in at. I live in Virginia and it seems like a pretty sweet deer and pig cartridge for reasonably close ranges. Plus, huge efficiency in a carbine!!!
I shoot the 350 Legend in a Savage 110 “18 inch barrel “ with a Crossfire regular BDC. Zeroed at 100 yards at 9x, 150 grain Deer Season second line is 200 yards, 180 grain PowerPoint 2.5 is 200 yards.
Drop another straight wall podcast when you release the .44 mag and .357 mag BDC scopes in 1-4 LPVO. As a hunter who only seems to hunt in these straight wall states I really enjoyed this podcast. P.S. out of the three people including myself who own ruger american predators in .350 legend...all three are sub moa guns @ 100 yards
They're making .44mag BDC scopes?! Told myself I'd never put a scope on my Redhawk or 1894, but that is tempting... Might be a good excuse to find one of those Ruger .44 carbines too, lol
What took me by surprise is I just recently found out they added 350 legend to our primitive weapons season cartridge list down in Louisiana and that was introduced a few years ago. But other than that we have 45-70, 444, and 35 Whelen we can shoot down here as long as they're being shot out of a single shot rifle... I love primitive weapons season it adds about 3 weeks to my deer season normally when not as many people are hunting... Great podcast guys yall rock!!!
Unless it has changed recently its anything over .35 caliber, and is single shot with an exposed hammer. The fact that .35 whelen is "primitive" is insane.
@@sstrongman1667 yeah 35 Whelen is kind of crazy because it's basically 30-06 necked up to a 35 cal but it's an older cartridge. The 350 legend is a modern cartridge I'm assuming since it met the 35 cal and firearms were made is why it got accepted in the primitive weapons list... Personally I shoot the Thompson Center Encore in 444 Marlin but I'm really thinking about getting a 350 legend... Take care brother and good luck this season!!
I went the 444 route myself before they dropped the requirement from 44 caliber to 35 caliber. It does pretty good out to 150 or so. Good luck to you as well.
I shot a crossfire II with my 450 Bushmaster (with brake removed) and loved it, but the recoil broke the scope in about 30 rounds fired. Rather than take advantage of Vortex's legendary customer service and get it fixed, I decided to return it but double down on Vortex and pick up the Viper HS in 2.5-10x44. It's shorter and lighter than the 3-9x50, so it goes better on my Ruger Ranch brush gun. It does better in low light despite having a smaller diameter objective, so I guess it's true what they say about glass quality and coatings. And ---here's what sold me on the Viper...the BDC hashes on the dead hold are reaaally close to those that were used on the 3-9x50 Straightwall. They are all a bit thinner, which has pros and cons. I think I liked the reticle on the Crossfire II better to my eye. But the extra field of view at 2.5x is really noticeable and really appreciated. If you're willing to take the risk of recoil damage, grab the Crossfire II. If money is no object (haha), put that $500 Viper HS on your $500 rifle and be done with it.
I think it’s awesome you guys did a Crossfire II for straight walls. I feel like you need to revisit having a slug gun/muzzleloader scope in your catalog of offerings. I remember the podcast…I believe it was the one that talked about the roots of vortex and the hits/misses the company has had…and that you used to have one of these scopes, but that it might have been the wrong timing. That happens with a lot of products…like the flop of a full-size SUV Subaru Tribeca that they could barely sell…now all you see are people driving the even bigger Subaru Ascent (you’re welcome for the car analogy Jimmy!). Curious why you chose 3-9x50 though? Seems like 40mm has been more popular than 50mm for a long time. Not saying 50 is bad…I know it gathers more light or whatever but just seemed like an interesting choice. Keep up the great work guys! Can’t wait for the next one!
Love the 45-70 and I have 4 rifles chambered in that cartridge. An 1874 Sharps, !885 High Wall, 1886 Wincbester, 1895 Marlin. J'm 72 and old school but looking forward to a 350 Legend rifle.
You might want to mention that one reason for moving from rim fire to center fire is because the rim fire case was much softer so could not be charged as highly as a centerfire.
Just added Info here in Indiana we aren't a straight wall state but we have size requirements 357 minimum diameter and case length min of 1.16in to 1.80in maximum
He was surprised the .444 Marlin was being used in some states in deer hunting season. I wonder why, the .35 Whelen is also allowed in some of those same states. In some cases I believe it might have to do with the diameter of the bullet. The .444 Marlin of mine harvested my 2018 elk at 244 yards and the elk did not take another step after the bullet struck.
The Population density of some states. Straight wall cartridge projectiles are lower velocity, like the 45-70 have trajectories like a brick. This lessens the likelihood of an errant roung going through a house.
This song reminds me so much of my beautiful son. We always watched sunrises and sunsets. We would lay outside and watch. We would watch meteor showers too. His love of sunsets entered into his love life too. He and his fiance would sit outside every day after work and just watch... I lost my beautiful son January 5th of 2022. I listen to this song over and over when I'm alone and just think about our time together with God's majesty andjust cry..... Damnedcif I do and damned if I don't is the way his life was with her..... Yes they loved each other, but were toxic... Thank you to anyone who reads this and feels the pain in my heart everyday 💔 Hanks mom, forever 30 and 25 days 12/11/1991-1/5/2022 (Destroyed by jumping out of a car to get away from arguing) Yes Hanks choice, but if anyone else does experience this toxic relationship, please escape. He didn't hurt himself on purpose, but ended up with Traumatic Brain Injury..................
I inherited a model 94 chambered in 38-55 10+ years ago. Fun gun to shoot. Cartridges have been difficult to come across. I just cast my own from tire weights. Loading up some hot rounds, was significant over Winchesters only offering. I read they under power them because alot of barrel bore dimension variance over the years. Don’t want to damage your antique.
357 maximum out of a handi rifle, 158 gr xtp, 23.5 grains of H110, 2200fps, smokin straight wall deer killer. Also a forgotten cartridge is the 38-55 or the 375 Winchester.
straight wall is where its AT! especially for reloading. 4570, 357, 44, 350 all awesome for reloading and turning them into some really awesome rounds more than already awesome! especially the expensive ammo such as underwood ammo xtreme hunter ammo you can reload for half if not more than half cheaper than you can buy and make that ammo better like better deviation and hotter if you want. so just better ammo! also can load any bullet you want for either target or hunting. hot rounds or weak rounds, so versitile
It is so serendipitous to have this particular episode of the podcast, which I know was timed to coincide with the release the the Straight Wall Crossfire II. People are going to ask, why not just use the Crossfire II Dead Hold? Or any of the LPVO like the 1-6 type of scopes. First off, this is not a long range cartridge and so you need a reticle that is designed for a max of about 300 yards. And there is no need to spend $1800 on a scope when this will literally be all you need. And now I get to the serendipity. Right this very day, I am in the middle of reading "Elmer Keith Big Game Hunting," (kindle version on my tablet) and I could recommend this book to anyone and you will get to read stories of actual hunts using these and similar cartridges. .450 Bushmaster can hunt deer up to moose and bear. I know Mark hunted bear with the .300 WSM (regardless of how us texans pronounce it, and I live in Texas and don't know how we pronounce it other than 300 Short Mag. We assume the Winchester part.) In the book, they are shooting .35 Whelen and .405 Win. Even a triple 3. Average grain weight around 250 and average MV around 2200 fps, some even slower. What is this for? Hunting big game in woody areas where you shots are less than 300 yards. In fact, many is the shot taken through the woods at less than 100 yards. If you shoot a .30-06 that close, even with an expanding bullet, the fear is that it will be moving to fast and blow through and not do enough damage. There are plenty of stories shooting twice and thrice with a .270 Win heavy grain and the harvest still escapes. This is tough backwoods hunting and it is going to be far easier to harvest and haul meat if the beast drops right where you shot him. And that is, the theory goes, best accomplished by a large caliber moving slowly and having time inside the target animal to expand and stop the functioning of heart and lungs right now, or very soon. An animal shot by a hunter dies of brain death. Allow me to man-splain. So, you were steady on your tripod and got a round right through the vital v blew off the top of the heart and some gaping holes in lung tissue. And rather than knock the beast over, he simply stumbled and fell. But his legs are still moving. The "ghost run." Eventually that stops when the brain stops. The brain stops because the damaged heart and lungs are no longer able to deliver oxygenated blood to the brain of the moose or elk that you shot. On the converse, I have seen a person bring down a moose with one shot from a 6.5 Creedmoor at 143 grain. Placement is key, of course. Right on about the semi-auto. I have two semi-autos from Windham Weaponry but they also have a 450 Bushmaster called the 450 Thumper for less than $2k (bare bones.) And you have the Rugers there. I just checked Mossberg. There is the Patriot synthetic stock at 450 dollars, the walnut stock at 539 dollars. Totally affordable. Amazon carries this scope. If you ordered right now, on Monday night, you could have it Friday the 3rd. You would get it possibly before the rifle shows up. By the way, the Vortex sport mount is great for rails on semi-autos. My Windham Weaponry R16SFST-308 had a Diamondback Tactical 6-24/ 50 mm and then I changed out to the Venom using Vortex AR style sport mounts because they have the right amount of offset and don't let go. Otherwise, on the bolt actions, the Vortex 1 inch tall rings will work on the Mossberg. I know because I did that on My Mossberg Patriot .308 win and just did it again on my TC Compass II .308 Win with one of the Diamondback Tacticals I had laying around after upgrading other rifles to the Venom. Get the synthetic stock 450, scope 180 after tax. Good Vortex rings. Splurge and get the Pro medium height rings at 70 dollars. 10 dollars for a generic sling but I am not going to count that because everyone has a few slings laying around. that's about 700 right now. You can add a cheek riser and ammo grip and finger grips from Goda Grip for about 60 bucks. Or do your cheek rise the old fashioned way with craft foam and vet tape from Amazon, 20 bucks - ish. Call it an even 750 for all of your outfitting. Spend the next 200 on ammo and a little bit left for range fees. Outfitted, sighted in, and ready for mule deer for $1,000. With a rig that will last a really long, long time. And you can hunt anything within 300 yards. And most deer hunting is within that distance. Ryan did an outstanding video on how to true your reticle. Granted, the engineers have to assume some averages. So, you take the specific data from your cartridge and input it into a ballistics calculator, such as the LRBC at Vortex's site. Choose 10 yard increments, and a 500 yard max range. In the reticle manual that comes with the scope, there will be a drawing that shows what the actual MOA of the hash marks are. I think the first one down is 2 MOA. Look on the drop chart that you just created and look down to 2 MOA or as close as you can get and look to your left and see the yardage. That yardage is now what that the hash mark means. If you wanted to get fancy, you could print just that reticle drawing and save as a PDF. Then go in to the pdf reader and choose "fill and sign" and type in your trued yardage. Then reduct and then print current view to the size you need. There is also a phone app called Strelok Pro for a few bucks that will take your information and not only come up with a reticle diagram but depending on the distance you are shooting, will show you should aim with your reticle. Given enough time, you will just memorize it and say, okay, first hash mark down is 175 and I am shooting 200 yards so, kind of halfway in between that one and the next. I just went to LRBC and chose Hornady .450 Bushmaster 250 grain. The closest on the list is 2.1 MOA and that equals 160 yards. so, actually, pretty dang close. You get back on to that first mark, that is going to be 150 yards, within 1 MOA. Anyway, for not a lot of money, you can hunt any large game. I know you want to say, Ron, how can you sneak up on an elk to less than 300 yards? Because my friend, John, hunted deer all the time and once got an elk with his .50 caliber black powder muzzleloader. That is just about all he ever hunted with. Even down to whitetail deer on his aunt's property. His cousin, however, was the one good at getting feral hogs and I smoked one on my grill and man, was that every good. I should retire from my day job and open a barbecue restaurant. The book I mentioned is full of stories of getting within 100 yards of the big game. The author smokes a pipe. It's called using the wind to your advantage. If you are upwind of the prey, they will smell you and your scent hider spray and be gone. Come up down wind of them on a windy day and you will get close enough that these cartridges are going to do what you want and drop the dinner, right there.
Glad he brought up the .357 Rem Max.........I had one of the first 200 14 inch TC barrels that came out of the factory and had a set of dies for it before the guns were available. I've been hand loading, swaging, and casting for it since it was available, as well as hunting deer with it forever. Our (upstate NY) area was shotgun for years, and only handguns from the early to mid 80's on.......for me it was a no brainer once handguns were legal. Being originally from the "rifle legal" area of northern NY, then moving to the shotgun only southern tier really sucked, but the handgun addition added a better option. To be honest, after all the deer I killed with the .357 Max, anything within 200 yds. using Sierra's 170 gr. Power Jackets dropped like being hit with "Thor's Hammer"......the visual reactions overall were much better than the rifles I ever used, as well as the lowly slug gun. Also wished they made a lever action for it....they'd clean up. I bought a new single shot Henry in .357 Mag and it's off being rechambered now.......
The .357 Rem max is AWSOME!! Set my wife up with a TC Contender rifle in the "Max". It is so awesome I am jealous of my wife having it and not me. Easy to load. Easy to shoot. And you can run 38 special and .357 Mag. Out of it. I have hounded Henry Repeating arms to make one in their single shot, or lever gun. Anyone interested in this cartridge should visit Bellm's TCs. It is truly "Maximum "!!!!
@@cornbreadburgess1950I was so intrigued by the Big Horn Armory M89 in 500 S&W when I handled on at Cabela’s. But something about the lever on closing…just didn’t feel right. Then I watched Hickok45 while he was shooting his and his lever was giving him trouble. A lot of money for taking a chance on an employee having a bad day and taking it out on a rifle he/she is building.That’s the only repeater I know of in 500 S&W. Sad
Great pod cast. My case for the 450 bush master is just another tool in the tool chest. I use mine for short distances (corn/bean) fields. My 308 for other hunting situations.
Great job love these. My son took his first deer last year with a 357 single shot Henry. Did a wonderful job. As far as the Reticle goes, has there been any thought of circles? I know another company used to do that, and I really liked it. Because it gave a person 3 reference points to further help with the challenges of averaging our all the data.
Picked up a 350 Legend recently, because most of my shots are inside of 50 yards, and I wanted a light recoiling bolt action that would hit game with authority. Plus, now I can hunt in a straight wall state, if I want. The Savage axis is a great short, lightweight, handy woods gun.
You mentioned 357 Remington maximum would be a great cartridge for a rifle. It's really awesome. I have a MGM barrel chambered for 357 RM mounted on a TC Encore frame. Using near the max. charge of 296 and 140 grain Sie. JHP on top for best accuracy and speed of 2170 fps @ the muzzle. It's a wonderful cartridge. BTW practice with any given gun at distances intended will take a lot of guess work out of BDC tuning. I'm pre everything of the modern world optics and shoot a number of cartridges out to 450 yards my max distance for respectable animal takedown. I use a nice crosshair combined with high-end glass and human eye holdover. About to turn 70 and taking down whitetail every year using the same process since 1968 and it's been working just fine without using my fancy BDC supplied in many of my scopes. Practice want make perfect as the old saying goes but it will make a great marksman out of ya. Rangefinder is my best friend and the trained human eye in the field!
I'd love an episode on the history of a cartridge that Ryan thinks was a flop, or doesnt perform well at anything, or was designed poorly. If it even exists.
I like straight wall cartridges. Always have. My favorite to shoot is a .44 magnum, which, performance-wise, is the modern, high pressure equivalent of the old .44-40. My next favorite to shoot is a .375 Winchester or .38-55.
Wish you would have touched on Mississippi and Louisiana primitive weapon season, that allows large bore, single shot, center fires in muzzle loader season. Not sure if any other states are on board yet, but
I bought a ruger 350 legend….and tried like hell to get the vortex 350 scope….but everytime i got a text or email that it was back in stock….its was gone again. I put a vortex crossfire 2 1-4x24mm on it…..worked just fine after sighting it in. Love the illuminated red dot……but if the 350 scope ever comes back in stock I will def grab one.
My pop brought a semiautomatic 20ga with a rifled barrel. Shoots a 240 grain .44cal jacketed hollow point sabot load at around 2100fps. Here in the hills of eastern Ohio where ranges rarely reach beyond 125 yards it is dynamite. I chose to pick up a $250 Bear Creek upper in .450 and love it.
I currently live in Michigan where the .450BM was created. Rumor here has it that Randy's Gun Center in Bad Axe, Mi worked with Ruger to create the 450 round. In Michigan about half way through the state there's a "rifle line," which is just a freeway that runs across the state, east to west. If you are above the rifle line, you can use any rifle, but if you are below the line, you're limited to shotguns, muzzleloaders and straight walled cartridges. I bought my .450BM a few years ago, taken several deer with it since buying it and I must say I am in love with that round. The furthest track job I've had is about 10 yards. 9 times out of 10 will drop them in their tracks. Most of the shots I take are beyond 100 yards, but definitely within 200 yards. After reading some of the other comments below, someone mentioned size requirements. We have that too in Michigan. You can use a 350 Legend, .357 sized cartridges but you cannot use a 45/70 because it is too long of a cartridge, even though it is straight wall. Love the podcast, keep up the great content
If Ruger was involved in creating the 450 Bushmaster then why didn't they call it the 450 Ruger just think about it and you'll find the answer oh and Randy had nothing to do with it
@Lukas zzstu Sikorski Randy working with Ruger to create a .450BM bolt action rifle is completely different from Randy working with Ruger to create the .450BM cartridge. That's what I was pointing out. Infact it was Tim LeGender who was behind it's creation. He licensed his cartridge to Bushmaster and they worked with Hornady to modify it slightly giving us the .450BM that we know today.
I hunt in the shotgun zone in MN and the distance is one factor. I'm more worried about party hunting or road hunters with rifles. I've had multiple people get out of their truck on the gravel road, gun in hand trying to get closer to a deer that I'm going to let walk, while I'm sitting in my deer stand. I'm not opposed to opening the slug zone to straight wall, but those are my concerns.
here in ohio we are only allowed to use straight wall catridges for hunting The only reason I could quickly found is the response to search below "Why do some states not allow bottleneck cartridges? Why do some states and jurisdictions ban bottleneck cartridges in rifles for hunting? It generally has to do with density of population. As a rule bullets from bottleneck cartridges travel further than those of straight wall."
Michigan southern lower peninsula is shotgun only. They opened it up to straight walled with a maximum case length. Can’t remember off the top of my head what the length is but 350 Legend 450 bushmaster 460 S&W are all legal. 45-70 isn’t. Not sure about 444 marlin. I live in northern lower but picked up a Ruger ranch in 450 bushmaster. Was thinking it would be super handy and great handling in a blind when hunting in thick woods with short shots. Going to out a LPVS on it. Also got a CVA scout pistol (similar size and function as a TC encore) in 350 legend. It’s pretty sweet shooting. They won’t replace my long range 6.5cm that I built for out in the fields but I think the 450 will be a great woods rifle
I've seen hoopla on forums about states that spec a 357min, that the 350 legend doesn't meet the requirement as it's a 355. I'm not sure if it's actually upheld or just overlooked I've never bumped into an actual case involving it.
I've got one of your 1-6 Strike Eagles on my 50 Beowulf. I've got dope out to 500 with my 350g load. It's like watching box cars fall from the sky 🤣 I especially enjoyed this podcast guys. Well done! 450 marlin is another sledgehammer...maybe I missed you guys talking about it.
I have a model 1873 U .S .Springfield in 45-70 in a very low serial number or at least I believe to be a low number. But because it is so old I will never shoot it again because of the fear of damaging it . I have shot it many years ago and with the steel butt plate it does put a hurting on you . Love your Pod Casts
I have a stainless steel Siamese mouser , with a 24 inch barrel. I shoot a 405 grain 45-70 at 2375 ft/sec. This has over 5,000 ft.lbs of e ergy . No excessive pressure signs.
Grew up pretty poor. Our deer guns were single shot 20 gauge Steven’s break actions. Absoloutley incredibly punishing recoil for a kid. My dad never thought twice about it. Bad side is you will develop a flinch as a 13 year old kid. Good news is a .300 win mag seems fairly tame.
Great video fellas. Well done. Side note: You Vortex boys need to get on Savage a little bit with their QC. I just bought a 110 APEX in 350L, w/ the Vortex Crossfire II 3-9x40 allegedly mounted properly, boresighted, etc. Suffice it to say, that scope was canted as hell when I pulled the gun from the box. 🤦♂ Not sure if it was made on Friday or before Christmas perhaps? Good help is a diamond in the rough these days. I suppose its possible a lax FedEx driver threw the box over the fence when he dropped it off at the ffl (jk), but the box appeared unscathed. I guess I will find out when I go to the range. Anyhow/nonetheless, I can't wait to try it out. Thanks again.
Here in Iowa we can now use the 35 whelen with our straight walls. 350 is great but if you want the extra range potential 450/35 whelen is the way to go. I have a Browning 12g A-bolt too. Did we just become friends?!?!
Love the show. Listen to y’all podcast almost everyday!!!! Just picked me up a CVA SCOUT .350 legend for primitive hunting here in Louisiana…. Also listened to yall show on 35 whelen and down here it’s a hugely popular round because it can be used for primitive and regular deer season here… primitive just has to be single shot, breach load and larger than .35 caliber in LA..
I am shooting a new Winchester 1886 extra light 4570 I am using cutting edge bullets Safari raptor 250 grain I shoot them over 2700 ft per second no trouble to kill a deer at 300 yards
I think the MAIN reason we moved away from rimfire is the fact in order to fire bigger projectiles faster, (further/flatter etc.), the case needs to be stronger and thicker.......
We can use the 350 in brake open for our primitive weapon season in Mississippi. Primitive Season we can use anything over a 35cal. only if brake open like New England, H&H, or CVA.
You can use .357 and .44 mag in Indiana because they meet the cartridge overall minimum, but unfortunately the .45-70 is over the maximum and is not allowed.
Great talk, with Illinois being added to the list of strait wall single shots, year 2023, what would you choose with new Remington 360 Buckhammer thrown in the mix???
Its always been my understanding that the main driving element in bottle neck cartridge design was because of the advent of smokeless powder. and the straight wall cartridge states was because of the low velocity its maximum range was really limited versus many bottle necked cartridges that are high velocity that will travel 2 to 3 times the distance before smacking the ground
For the safety factor of people shooting moving dear from the ground, add a law to say you have to be 6' off the ground to hunt meaning your rifle eventually have to stop in the dirt by the angle of the shot. thats what law we have in NC. now our clubs do not allow dog pushing of dear as we view that as dangerous or would be buck shot only with measurement between hunter rules.
Just got into straight walled cartridges I never knew in my county that I could hunt with them and I’m stuck between a 45-70 and a 350 legend for the new hunting rig
I don't know why I didn't I didn't notice this video when it came out but here are some facts and opinions. For the 2021 season Iowa (a state where I hunted in my youth and was shotgun with slugs only) now allows some center fire rifle cartridges that really are not straight wall cases BUT minimum bullet diameter ...350" and not over .500" AND minimum muzzle energy of 500 ft lbs. There is a published list on the Iowa DNR website but it states that it is not a complete list. It says if your not sure, contact a local conservation officer. For example the 35 Remington is not listed, but the 350 Bushmaster is. Thus the 35 Remington appears to meet the requirements but the 30/30 Winchester clearly does not. Any rifle with smaller bullet diameter, regardless of case shape or energy is still not legal. The 35 Whelen is on the list of approved cartridges along with the 357 Magnum, 44 Magnum, 444 Marlin, 45-70 Gov't and both your beloved 350 and 450 Bushmasters, but you better check what types of rifles are allowed. I would add 358 Winchester to the list, but I suppose the folks who compiled the list never heard of it. Hand guns that meet the requirements must have a minimum barrel length of 4". New for the 2023 season is that AR-15's shooting a bullet with a minimum diameter of .224 will be legal in a antlerless only season in certain zones or counties. For the bigger, more powerful is always better crowd, if you've got your favorite 358 Norma Magnum, 375 H&H, 416 Rigby or 458 Winchester and you don't want to lay out the cash for something less punishing to shoot some Iowa corn fed deer, you're set to go! I guess that no one there knows how far you can bounce 400 grain 45/70 but farm houses are not as close together as they used to be. The rules were written by the legislature, not DNR, so I won't try to figure anything else. Mississippi and Louisiana both allow 35 Whelen and larger diameter cartridges during their "primative" seasons, but only in break action rifles with exposed hammers. I've hunted in Mississippi several times with friends and relatives during the regular firearms seasons, always with my 270 Winchester. I was always surrounded by hunters with all kinds and sizes of arms. I would not consider the 35 Whelen or a single shot rifle to be a primative weapon. I guess the law allowing that was a nod from the legislature(s) to the folks that didn't have the money or didn't want to spend the money for anything as difficult to operate as even an in-line muzzle loader to hunt during the "primative" season. Illinois is still behind the 8-ball. Shotguns or Muzzleloaders only. In Indiana the only center fire rifle you can use is 243 Winchester unless that has changed in recent years. Try to figure that one out! Oh yeah, law written by legislature. In Kansas, where I live, we can use any center fire rifle, .224 or larger, in any platform, shotguns 20 gauge or larger, slugs only, handguns (I don't remember caliber limitations) and Muzzleloaders, any type, I believe 40 caliber or larger during muzzleloader only season or regular firearms deer season if you desire. I'd like to go deer hunting with my relatives on their farms in Iowa, but I find their non-resident fees are outrageously expensive. I read one report that said that is because some folks think all us non-residents would wipe out the deer herd. 🤥. Wow! Those evil high powered rifles, AR's! What will they think of next?!
I just confirmed shipping on a 17" 350L for an stoner platform. Planning on using the 4-12 x 56 AO scope. All I need now is some of that post-2020 priced ammo.
Another terminal ballistics episode on specific hunting bullets would be awesome. Is anything needed other than a good old Nosler Partition? Would love to hear y’all’s experience with different bullets
I’ve loved Partitions for decades. But they’ve become so grossly expensive(even way over more precious homogeneous bullets. How has lead gotten that much more expensive than lead?!) I question Nosler’s motives regarding the Partition
From what I've been reading in the regs Iowa has started to allow bottleneck cartridges provided they are 35 cal or larger. Theres a list of allowable cartridges on the Iowa hunting regulations website and it says the lost is not all inclusive then list the benchmarks you have to meet. Thinking of building a 35 Whelen.
Smokeless powder was the technology that made bottleneck cartridges possible, even early pistol cartridges at the dawn of smokeless powder were bottleneck cartridges like 7.63 Mauser
I have a CVA Scout single shot in 350L. 20” barrel. It’s topped with the Diamondback HP 4-16x42 with the Dead-Hold BDC reticle. I shoot the Barnes 170 grain ammo for whitetail deer. No access to a chrono. Wonder what my holds would be.
The other why when it comes to .450 bushmaster vs .45-70 is the case length requirement in southern Michigan. That brings us to .360 buckhammer, which has a case length that exactly matches that case length.
It would be nice to hear about the 30 Rem. AR in your podcast. P.S. love your show I think that this cartage is unknown but one of the better AR calibers Love to hear Ryan's thought's on it
The old 444 Marlin with Marshal of Bear tooth bullets load data . Takes the Triple 4 to a new level. Think I was 2100 fps with a 300gr bullet from my '78 336 444. That load would give just shy of 3k ft lbs of energy. Anchoring deer is an understatement lol
Good ol Wisconsin used to be like that with the no rifle thing. When I used to live up there, first started hunting after getting my DNR Hunters Safety certificate at the age of 12. I was so sad as a kid to learn in Southern Wisconsin it was a shotgun slug or handgun only. I totally wanted to get my first deer with my dads old 30-06!!! Seriously bummed me out, LOL They changed that though so now statewide unless in a unit otherwise restricted, one can now use the rifles.
Bear Creek Ballistics (I guess the link was removed). They have a 160gr all Cu. I had to wait several weeks, but I ordered these. I have not had a chance to get out there and fire them. My barrel is shipping soon.
I know some states that used to not allow centerfires have begun allowing straight walled cartridges. Well, my state has always allowed centerfires because we aren't a shitty state like that, but if the SC DNR would start allowing straight walls during muzzleloader season, I would quit breaking the law during muzzleloader season. I've shot several deer with the old muzzleloading .308 and 30-06.
My 8” barreled 460 S&W Mag has an average velocity of 2350FPS with 200gn FTX rounds. I can only imagine what that velocity would be in a 16.5”-22” deer hunting rifle 😮. Seems it might be faster and hitting harder than many of the new straight walls (350 legend, 360 Buckhammer, 450 bushmaster rounds). Wonder why more rifles weren’t chambered for this?
I would listen to Ryan talk cartridges on his own dedicated podcast.
When Ryan talks, it makes my brain happy
Agreed could listen to Ryan talk for 48 hours straight, so many questions for him...
When I saw Ryan in the preview I knew we were in for a cracking episode
I shoot a new Winchester 1886 4590 I am using cutting edge bullets Safari raptor 250 grain I am shooting them over 2900 ft per second
Also gotta admit jim and mark do a great job facilitating the conversation, It's obvious they ask questions they know the answers to frame the podcast as a listener who doesn't know as much about cartridges, with that said I wish there was an elementary and advanced talk about the same cartridges
Ryan: That cartridge is phenomenal.
Mark: We haven't told you what it is yet.
Ryan: .... phenomenal
😂😂😂
And the ______(animal) folded up like a 5 dollar tent!
I'd love to see a 10 minute talk on .450 Bushmaster or .350 Legend load data or capabilities. I love that Ryan has some really niche and interesting info like hinting at his reloading buddies' secret sauce for .280 Ackley Improved video. (Would *love* to see a further explanation of that data as well btw.) Every time I see you guys put a video out I'm like "Welp, gotta get a .280 Ackley." "Well, time to get a .350 Legend." "Gee, time to get a 6.8 Western." Haven't done any of that yet as I'm working towards building out a .300 WinMag for my move up to Alaska next year. Also will be going hunting for the very first time this year with a .270 WSM rifle, chosen in part due to Mark's dogged love of his .300 Whizzm.
Super cool, Thomas! We'll certainly add those to the list - we appreciate it! The beautiful thing about firearms is there is always room for one more ;) Good luck on your hunt! Keep us posted with how it goes.
We need the 450 bushmaster 10 min talk
If Ryan was taking on an apprentice to teach everything he knows, I’d apply for that so fast.
You'd be better off to listen to GUNBLUE490 or the REAL GUNSMITH Randy Selby.
Been hunting deer with a Marlin 44mag since 2005. Ive lost track of how many deer ive killed but what I do know is ive never had a deer go more than 30 yards in that time. 🤠
Me as well except an H&R handi rifle and Dan Wesson revolver. 44 mag is awesome 👍
What load are you using?
@@jasonweishaupt1828 mostly Hornady leverevolution 44mag 225gr FTX.
I enjoy the heck out of these podcasts.
Amen, twin brother from another mother.
We appreciate that, my friend! Thanks for being a part of Vortex Nation! :)
Greetings from Germany. I don’t have a straightwall, but you guys planted a seed. Waidmannsheil 👍🏻
Right on! Thanks for tuning in, my friend! 👊
For the next 10 minute cartridge talk, the 250 savage (first cartridge to reach the 3000fps barrier), or the 300 savage (parent cartridge of the 308 Winchester), would be fantastic.
357 magnum, single shot break action, with a 3x9x40 scope on top.
This rifle will use all the 38sp and +P stuff. Seems to be a good supply of factory 357 ammo and I handload. This brings out a complete new chapter for the 357 Magnum cartridge.
110-125 grain, HP for PSD. The heavy bullets, 130-180 grain for Hunting. Deer and Feral Hogs have been taken. LHCSWC 158 grain on top of 13 grains of Little Gun. A 125 HP at 100 yards will turn a groundhog inside out.
You guys need to talk about the .375 H&H. The first "magnum" cartridge. The first belted cartridge.
Agreed
.400/375 Veloplex.
Agree 💯 also the 300 H&H I love them more than my boyfriend!!
second
Love listening to you guys. I love the way you all discuss things. Ryan is a great guy, to be as smart as he is with history and firearm knowledge but never to me comes off as a know-it-all. Even though sometimes I don't always agree with everything he says due to what I was taught and read in the past. It is still a preveledge to hear from is knowledge and point of view, just to learn more or brings me to do more research on my end. All of you a smart and professional guys that I listen to on hear. Just thanks to all of you and please keep it going. 💯
I totally agree, 45/70 is the class of the field.. I had a friend back in the eighties who used to shoot 357 maximum and he loved it I totally agree with Ryan. 357 maximum in AR platform... I am absolutely down With that,
Coming from A 45/70 fanboy , That should tell you something
That is certainly an intriguing combination. I love the 45-70 as well. Straight wall rifle cartridges just do what they do really, really well. I’m partial to lever actions too though, so I’m probably biased.
3 of my favourite guys on you tube and the encyclopaedia that is Ryan I never get tired of he’s knowledge. Keep up the great work gentlemen
You're too kind, Nick! :) Thanks for being a part of Vortex Nation!
The 357 Maximum was a great rounds for a lever gun. I’d prefer a Marlin 336 in 357 Maximum.
Metal cartridges with a neck or taper open up higher pressures, which leads to speed. Prior to that, power could only be achieved with heavier bullets at lower speeds, so we got to .72! The 30-30 started it, being the first smokeless and being used by the lever actions that were designed for the pressure.
30 caliber on 30 grains, not exactly a screamer but it sure lit a fire that hasn’t went out!
I love that you are creating these podcasts, and doubly so for having videos. Information is endless and appreciated.
Great video. Full of good info. P.S. I live in Illinois and 2023 was the first year that single shot rifles were allowed for deer hunting. Prior to this year, it was shot guns with slugs, muzzleloaders.
Effective Jan. 1, 2023, the legal calibers for single-shot rifles in Illinois are:
a bottleneck centerfire cartridge of .30 caliber or larger with a case length not exceeding one and two-fifths inches, OR
a straight-walled centerfire cartridge of .30 caliber or larger.
Both must be available as a factory load with the published ballistic tables of the manufacturer showing a capability of at least 500-foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.
Full-metal jacket bullets may not be used to harvest deer.
The cartridge can not be .50 caliber or greater.
These caliber specifications are the same that hunters may be familiar with for handgun deer hunting in previous years. The barrel of a handgun shall be at least 4 inches.
"Single shot" means a gun that is either manufactured or modified to only be capable of holding a total of one round in the magazine and chamber combined.
"Single shot" does not include a rifle in the possession of a person who is also in possession of or in close proximity to a magazine that would allow the rifle to be capable of holding more than one round or a revolver.
A rifle shall be considered a single shot if there is no magazine in possession of or in close proximity to a hunter in the field and the gun can only hold a total of one round.
Great overview of some fun cartridges. I for one have been thinking 🤔 about a few of them. I have two bottleneck cartridges in the .270 Win and .300 WSM, but outside of my CVA Optima V2 50 cal I don’t have any rifles or slug guns to take to my neighboring state of Ohio (I live in West Virginia) where my wife’s Mom and Stepdad live. I was interested before I recently got married.
I have a quandary in that part of me likes the .450 BM in the same gun that you have on the table in the Ruger American Go Wild (but the 22 in barrel). I almost bought a standard A2 style upper in the bargain cave of Cabela’s multiple times 6+ years ago but never pulled the trigger.
The other part of me really really wants a lever gun. I just love everything about them. They have such a cool 😎 factor, Cowboy action, a fun repeater, etc… So I have thought about the classic 45/70 Government, the 444 Marlin or 44 Mag. My youngest brother and Dad both have 30/30s so I want something larger.
My youngest brother has the 350 Legend in an AR which is fun, he might let me borrow it if needed. I have thought about that same 350 Legend on the table for my wife as her first gun. No recoil and pre 2020 not too expensive ammo wise.
I chose to add a 350 legend upper to my arsenal because 350 legend ammo was on the shelf at quite a few Walmarts that I stopped in at.
I live in Virginia and it seems like a pretty sweet deer and pig cartridge for reasonably close ranges. Plus, huge efficiency in a carbine!!!
I shoot the 350 Legend in a Savage 110 “18 inch barrel “ with a Crossfire regular BDC. Zeroed at 100 yards at 9x, 150 grain Deer Season second line is 200 yards, 180 grain PowerPoint 2.5 is 200 yards.
By second line, do you mean the first line down from dead center is the 2nd line? Or the actual second hash mark from dead center with a 100yrd zero?
Drop another straight wall podcast when you release the .44 mag and .357 mag BDC scopes in 1-4 LPVO. As a hunter who only seems to hunt in these straight wall states I really enjoyed this podcast. P.S. out of the three people including myself who own ruger american predators in .350 legend...all three are sub moa guns @ 100 yards
I think 99.9% of Ruger Americans, regardless of caliber, shoot sub MOA. If they had a bolt lock mechanism I’d own a bunch of them.
They're making .44mag BDC scopes?! Told myself I'd never put a scope on my Redhawk or 1894, but that is tempting... Might be a good excuse to find one of those Ruger .44 carbines too, lol
Listening here from Ireland 🇮🇪 would love to here a 10 minute talk on the 6.5x55
Is that a popular hunting cartridge in Ireland?
What took me by surprise is I just recently found out they added 350 legend to our primitive weapons season cartridge list down in Louisiana and that was introduced a few years ago. But other than that we have 45-70, 444, and 35 Whelen we can shoot down here as long as they're being shot out of a single shot rifle... I love primitive weapons season it adds about 3 weeks to my deer season normally when not as many people are hunting... Great podcast guys yall rock!!!
Unless it has changed recently its anything over .35 caliber, and is single shot with an exposed hammer. The fact that .35 whelen is "primitive" is insane.
@@sstrongman1667 yeah 35 Whelen is kind of crazy because it's basically 30-06 necked up to a 35 cal but it's an older cartridge. The 350 legend is a modern cartridge I'm assuming since it met the 35 cal and firearms were made is why it got accepted in the primitive weapons list... Personally I shoot the Thompson Center Encore in 444 Marlin but I'm really thinking about getting a 350 legend... Take care brother and good luck this season!!
I went the 444 route myself before they dropped the requirement from 44 caliber to 35 caliber. It does pretty good out to 150 or so. Good luck to you as well.
That explains why CVA is making to scout in 35 whelen. Thought it was a strange chambering in a single shot rifle
@@sstrongman1667sshhhhhh!!!
I shoot a 450 Bushmaster - pistol and rifle. Reload for it. Just love it! Can load it to the stats of a 460 S&W with no signs of pressure.
We are missing the Big Bores!!! .375 Winchester or 38-55
I shot a crossfire II with my 450 Bushmaster (with brake removed) and loved it, but the recoil broke the scope in about 30 rounds fired. Rather than take advantage of Vortex's legendary customer service and get it fixed, I decided to return it but double down on Vortex and pick up the Viper HS in 2.5-10x44. It's shorter and lighter than the 3-9x50, so it goes better on my Ruger Ranch brush gun. It does better in low light despite having a smaller diameter objective, so I guess it's true what they say about glass quality and coatings. And ---here's what sold me on the Viper...the BDC hashes on the dead hold are reaaally close to those that were used on the 3-9x50 Straightwall. They are all a bit thinner, which has pros and cons. I think I liked the reticle on the Crossfire II better to my eye. But the extra field of view at 2.5x is really noticeable and really appreciated. If you're willing to take the risk of recoil damage, grab the Crossfire II. If money is no object (haha), put that $500 Viper HS on your $500 rifle and be done with it.
I think it’s awesome you guys did a Crossfire II for straight walls. I feel like you need to revisit having a slug gun/muzzleloader scope in your catalog of offerings. I remember the podcast…I believe it was the one that talked about the roots of vortex and the hits/misses the company has had…and that you used to have one of these scopes, but that it might have been the wrong timing. That happens with a lot of products…like the flop of a full-size SUV Subaru Tribeca that they could barely sell…now all you see are people driving the even bigger Subaru Ascent (you’re welcome for the car analogy Jimmy!).
Curious why you chose 3-9x50 though? Seems like 40mm has been more popular than 50mm for a long time. Not saying 50 is bad…I know it gathers more light or whatever but just seemed like an interesting choice.
Keep up the great work guys! Can’t wait for the next one!
I love when the vortex podcast comes right in my ears. I actually look forward to it, kind of addicted one may say.
Love the 45-70 and I have 4 rifles chambered in that cartridge. An 1874 Sharps, !885 High Wall, 1886 Wincbester, 1895 Marlin. J'm 72 and old school but looking forward to a 350 Legend rifle.
You might want to mention that one reason for moving from rim fire to center fire is because the rim fire case was much softer so could not be charged as highly as a centerfire.
Just added Info here in Indiana we aren't a straight wall state but we have size requirements 357 minimum diameter and case length min of 1.16in to 1.80in maximum
He was surprised the .444 Marlin was being used in some states in deer hunting season. I wonder why, the .35 Whelen is also allowed in some of those same states. In some cases I believe it might have to do with the diameter of the bullet. The .444 Marlin of mine harvested my 2018 elk at 244 yards and the elk did not take another step after the bullet struck.
The Population density of some states. Straight wall cartridge projectiles are lower velocity, like the 45-70 have trajectories like a brick. This lessens the likelihood of an errant roung going through a house.
so much fun to watch/listen to you guys! Keep it coming!
This song reminds me so much of my beautiful son.
We always watched sunrises and sunsets. We would lay outside and watch. We would watch meteor showers too.
His love of sunsets entered into his love life too. He and his fiance would sit outside every day after work and just watch...
I lost my beautiful son January 5th of 2022.
I listen to this song over and over when I'm alone and just think about our time together with God's majesty andjust cry.....
Damnedcif I do and damned if I don't is the way his life was with her.....
Yes they loved each other, but were toxic...
Thank you to anyone who reads this and feels the pain in my heart everyday 💔
Hanks mom, forever 30 and 25 days
12/11/1991-1/5/2022
(Destroyed by jumping out of a car to get away from arguing)
Yes Hanks choice, but if anyone else does experience this toxic relationship, please escape. He didn't hurt himself on purpose, but ended up with Traumatic Brain Injury..................
I wish the 375 Winchester would make a comeback
I inherited a model 94 chambered in 38-55 10+ years ago. Fun gun to shoot. Cartridges have been difficult to come across. I just cast my own from tire weights. Loading up some hot rounds, was significant over Winchesters only offering. I read they under power them because alot of barrel bore dimension variance over the years. Don’t want to damage your antique.
357 maximum out of a handi rifle, 158 gr xtp, 23.5 grains of H110, 2200fps, smokin straight wall deer killer. Also a forgotten cartridge is the 38-55 or the 375 Winchester.
straight wall is where its AT! especially for reloading. 4570, 357, 44, 350 all awesome for reloading and turning them into some really awesome rounds more than already awesome! especially the expensive ammo such as underwood ammo xtreme hunter ammo you can reload for half if not more than half cheaper than you can buy and make that ammo better like better deviation and hotter if you want. so just better ammo! also can load any bullet you want for either target or hunting. hot rounds or weak rounds, so versitile
It is so serendipitous to have this particular episode of the podcast, which I know was timed to coincide with the release the the Straight Wall Crossfire II. People are going to ask, why not just use the Crossfire II Dead Hold? Or any of the LPVO like the 1-6 type of scopes.
First off, this is not a long range cartridge and so you need a reticle that is designed for a max of about 300 yards. And there is no need to spend $1800 on a scope when this will literally be all you need. And now I get to the serendipity. Right this very day, I am in the middle of reading "Elmer Keith Big Game Hunting," (kindle version on my tablet) and I could recommend this book to anyone and you will get to read stories of actual hunts using these and similar cartridges. .450 Bushmaster can hunt deer up to moose and bear. I know Mark hunted bear with the .300 WSM (regardless of how us texans pronounce it, and I live in Texas and don't know how we pronounce it other than 300 Short Mag. We assume the Winchester part.)
In the book, they are shooting .35 Whelen and .405 Win. Even a triple 3. Average grain weight around 250 and average MV around 2200 fps, some even slower. What is this for? Hunting big game in woody areas where you shots are less than 300 yards. In fact, many is the shot taken through the woods at less than 100 yards. If you shoot a .30-06 that close, even with an expanding bullet, the fear is that it will be moving to fast and blow through and not do enough damage. There are plenty of stories shooting twice and thrice with a .270 Win heavy grain and the harvest still escapes.
This is tough backwoods hunting and it is going to be far easier to harvest and haul meat if the beast drops right where you shot him. And that is, the theory goes, best accomplished by a large caliber moving slowly and having time inside the target animal to expand and stop the functioning of heart and lungs right now, or very soon.
An animal shot by a hunter dies of brain death. Allow me to man-splain. So, you were steady on your tripod and got a round right through the vital v blew off the top of the heart and some gaping holes in lung tissue. And rather than knock the beast over, he simply stumbled and fell. But his legs are still moving. The "ghost run." Eventually that stops when the brain stops. The brain stops because the damaged heart and lungs are no longer able to deliver oxygenated blood to the brain of the moose or elk that you shot. On the converse, I have seen a person bring down a moose with one shot from a 6.5 Creedmoor at 143 grain. Placement is key, of course.
Right on about the semi-auto. I have two semi-autos from Windham Weaponry but they also have a 450 Bushmaster called the 450 Thumper for less than $2k (bare bones.) And you have the Rugers there. I just checked Mossberg. There is the Patriot synthetic stock at 450 dollars, the walnut stock at 539 dollars. Totally affordable. Amazon carries this scope. If you ordered right now, on Monday night, you could have it Friday the 3rd. You would get it possibly before the rifle shows up. By the way, the Vortex sport mount is great for rails on semi-autos. My Windham Weaponry R16SFST-308 had a Diamondback Tactical 6-24/ 50 mm and then I changed out to the Venom using Vortex AR style sport mounts because they have the right amount of offset and don't let go.
Otherwise, on the bolt actions, the Vortex 1 inch tall rings will work on the Mossberg. I know because I did that on My Mossberg Patriot .308 win and just did it again on my TC Compass II .308 Win with one of the Diamondback Tacticals I had laying around after upgrading other rifles to the Venom. Get the synthetic stock 450, scope 180 after tax. Good Vortex rings. Splurge and get the Pro medium height rings at 70 dollars. 10 dollars for a generic sling but I am not going to count that because everyone has a few slings laying around. that's about 700 right now. You can add a cheek riser and ammo grip and finger grips from Goda Grip for about 60 bucks. Or do your cheek rise the old fashioned way with craft foam and vet tape from Amazon, 20 bucks - ish. Call it an even 750 for all of your outfitting. Spend the next 200 on ammo and a little bit left for range fees. Outfitted, sighted in, and ready for mule deer for $1,000. With a rig that will last a really long, long time. And you can hunt anything within 300 yards. And most deer hunting is within that distance.
Ryan did an outstanding video on how to true your reticle. Granted, the engineers have to assume some averages. So, you take the specific data from your cartridge and input it into a ballistics calculator, such as the LRBC at Vortex's site. Choose 10 yard increments, and a 500 yard max range. In the reticle manual that comes with the scope, there will be a drawing that shows what the actual MOA of the hash marks are. I think the first one down is 2 MOA. Look on the drop chart that you just created and look down to 2 MOA or as close as you can get and look to your left and see the yardage. That yardage is now what that the hash mark means. If you wanted to get fancy, you could print just that reticle drawing and save as a PDF. Then go in to the pdf reader and choose "fill and sign" and type in your trued yardage. Then reduct and then print current view to the size you need.
There is also a phone app called Strelok Pro for a few bucks that will take your information and not only come up with a reticle diagram but depending on the distance you are shooting, will show you should aim with your reticle.
Given enough time, you will just memorize it and say, okay, first hash mark down is 175 and I am shooting 200 yards so, kind of halfway in between that one and the next.
I just went to LRBC and chose Hornady .450 Bushmaster 250 grain. The closest on the list is 2.1 MOA and that equals 160 yards. so, actually, pretty dang close. You get back on to that first mark, that is going to be 150 yards, within 1 MOA.
Anyway, for not a lot of money, you can hunt any large game. I know you want to say, Ron, how can you sneak up on an elk to less than 300 yards? Because my friend, John, hunted deer all the time and once got an elk with his .50 caliber black powder muzzleloader. That is just about all he ever hunted with. Even down to whitetail deer on his aunt's property. His cousin, however, was the one good at getting feral hogs and I smoked one on my grill and man, was that every good. I should retire from my day job and open a barbecue restaurant.
The book I mentioned is full of stories of getting within 100 yards of the big game. The author smokes a pipe. It's called using the wind to your advantage. If you are upwind of the prey, they will smell you and your scent hider spray and be gone. Come up down wind of them on a windy day and you will get close enough that these cartridges are going to do what you want and drop the dinner, right there.
Love the 450!! One hole accuracy and flattens everything I shoot with it!
Glad he brought up the .357 Rem Max.........I had one of the first 200 14 inch TC barrels that came out of the factory and had a set of dies for it before the guns were available. I've been hand loading, swaging, and casting for it since it was available, as well as hunting deer with it forever. Our (upstate NY) area was shotgun for years, and only handguns from the early to mid 80's on.......for me it was a no brainer once handguns were legal. Being originally from the "rifle legal" area of northern NY, then moving to the shotgun only southern tier really sucked, but the handgun addition added a better option. To be honest, after all the deer I killed with the .357 Max, anything within 200 yds. using Sierra's 170 gr. Power Jackets dropped like being hit with "Thor's Hammer"......the visual reactions overall were much better than the rifles I ever used, as well as the lowly slug gun. Also wished they made a lever action for it....they'd clean up. I bought a new single shot Henry in .357 Mag and it's off being rechambered now.......
The .357 Rem max is AWSOME!! Set my wife up with a TC Contender rifle in the "Max". It is so awesome I am jealous of my wife having it and not me. Easy to load. Easy to shoot. And you can run 38 special and .357 Mag. Out of it. I have hounded Henry Repeating arms to make one in their single shot, or lever gun. Anyone interested in this cartridge should visit Bellm's TCs. It is truly "Maximum "!!!!
Field test time! Would love hear about 350 legend and 450 bushmaster after all 3 of you guys took them out for a spin. Either hunting or the range.
The 500 mag in e rifle will give you food for thought crazy power , watching it again and saw your comment,👍❤️ happy travels bro.
@@cornbreadburgess1950I was so intrigued by the Big Horn Armory M89 in 500 S&W when I handled on at Cabela’s. But something about the lever on closing…just didn’t feel right. Then I watched Hickok45 while he was shooting his and his lever was giving him trouble. A lot of money for taking a chance on an employee having a bad day and taking it out on a rifle he/she is building.That’s the only repeater I know of in 500 S&W. Sad
Great pod cast. My case for the 450 bush master is just another tool in the tool chest. I use mine for short distances (corn/bean) fields. My 308 for other hunting situations.
Great to hear a plug for 357max, it never gets enough attention.
Great job love these. My son took his first deer last year with a 357 single shot Henry. Did a wonderful job. As far as the Reticle goes, has there been any thought of circles? I know another company used to do that, and I really liked it. Because it gave a person 3 reference points to further help with the challenges of averaging our all the data.
Picked up a 350 Legend recently, because most of my shots are inside of 50 yards, and I wanted a light recoiling bolt action that would hit game with authority. Plus, now I can hunt in a straight wall state, if I want. The Savage axis is a great short, lightweight, handy woods gun.
Give the people what they want: Ryan on podventures
I am insanely attracted to Ruger #1 .450 but already have a .44 mag rifle. Resist the urge to buy more guns. Resist!
Resistance is futile
You mentioned 357 Remington maximum would be a great cartridge for a rifle. It's really awesome. I have a MGM barrel chambered for 357 RM mounted on a TC Encore frame. Using near the max. charge of 296 and 140 grain Sie. JHP on top for best accuracy and speed of 2170 fps @ the muzzle. It's a wonderful cartridge. BTW practice with any given gun at distances intended will take a lot of guess work out of BDC tuning. I'm pre everything of the modern world optics and shoot a number of cartridges out to 450 yards my max distance for respectable animal takedown. I use a nice crosshair combined with high-end glass and human eye holdover. About to turn 70 and taking down whitetail every year using the same process since 1968 and it's been working just fine without using my fancy BDC supplied in many of my scopes. Practice want make perfect as the old saying goes but it will make a great marksman out of ya. Rangefinder is my best friend and the trained human eye in the field!
I'd love an episode on the history of a cartridge that Ryan thinks was a flop, or doesnt perform well at anything, or was designed poorly.
If it even exists.
40 S&W
@@JohnMaxGriffin ah yes. The "not quite a 10mm, not quite a 9mm" cons of both without the pros of either.
7-30 Waters
50 Beowulf
30/03
25-20 Winchester
25 Remington
30 Remington
35 Remington
@@ChitFromChinola do not disparage the 50 Beowulf
I like straight wall cartridges. Always have. My favorite to shoot is a .44 magnum, which, performance-wise, is the modern, high pressure equivalent of the old .44-40. My next favorite to shoot is a .375 Winchester or .38-55.
Wish you would have touched on Mississippi and Louisiana primitive weapon season, that allows large bore, single shot, center fires in muzzle loader season. Not sure if any other states are on board yet, but
Always enjoy listening. Keep em coming!
I bought a ruger 350 legend….and tried like hell to get the vortex 350 scope….but everytime i got a text or email that it was back in stock….its was gone again. I put a vortex crossfire 2 1-4x24mm on it…..worked just fine after sighting it in. Love the illuminated red dot……but if the 350 scope ever comes back in stock I will def grab one.
Heck yeah - that's awesome!👊
My pop brought a semiautomatic 20ga with a rifled barrel. Shoots a 240 grain .44cal jacketed hollow point sabot load at around 2100fps. Here in the hills of eastern Ohio where ranges rarely reach beyond 125 yards it is dynamite.
I chose to pick up a $250 Bear Creek upper in .450 and love it.
I currently live in Michigan where the .450BM was created. Rumor here has it that Randy's Gun Center in Bad Axe, Mi worked with Ruger to create the 450 round. In Michigan about half way through the state there's a "rifle line," which is just a freeway that runs across the state, east to west. If you are above the rifle line, you can use any rifle, but if you are below the line, you're limited to shotguns, muzzleloaders and straight walled cartridges. I bought my .450BM a few years ago, taken several deer with it since buying it and I must say I am in love with that round. The furthest track job I've had is about 10 yards. 9 times out of 10 will drop them in their tracks. Most of the shots I take are beyond 100 yards, but definitely within 200 yards. After reading some of the other comments below, someone mentioned size requirements. We have that too in Michigan. You can use a 350 Legend, .357 sized cartridges but you cannot use a 45/70 because it is too long of a cartridge, even though it is straight wall. Love the podcast, keep up the great content
If Ruger was involved in creating the 450 Bushmaster then why didn't they call it the 450 Ruger just think about it and you'll find the answer oh and Randy had nothing to do with it
@Lukas zzstu Sikorski Randy working with Ruger to create a .450BM bolt action rifle is completely different from Randy working with Ruger to create the .450BM cartridge. That's what I was pointing out. Infact it was Tim LeGender who was behind it's creation. He licensed his cartridge to Bushmaster and they worked with Hornady to modify it slightly giving us the .450BM that we know today.
Best primitive weapon for hunting....the longbow
I hunt in the shotgun zone in MN and the distance is one factor. I'm more worried about party hunting or road hunters with rifles. I've had multiple people get out of their truck on the gravel road, gun in hand trying to get closer to a deer that I'm going to let walk, while I'm sitting in my deer stand. I'm not opposed to opening the slug zone to straight wall, but those are my concerns.
here in ohio we are only allowed to use straight wall catridges for hunting
The only reason I could quickly found is the response to search below
"Why do some states not allow bottleneck cartridges?
Why do some states and jurisdictions ban bottleneck cartridges in rifles for hunting? It generally has to do with density of population. As a rule bullets from bottleneck cartridges travel further than those of straight wall."
Michigan southern lower peninsula is shotgun only. They opened it up to straight walled with a maximum case length. Can’t remember off the top of my head what the length is but 350 Legend 450 bushmaster 460 S&W are all legal. 45-70 isn’t. Not sure about 444 marlin. I live in northern lower but picked up a Ruger ranch in 450 bushmaster. Was thinking it would be super handy and great handling in a blind when hunting in thick woods with short shots. Going to out a LPVS on it. Also got a CVA scout pistol (similar size and function as a TC encore) in 350 legend. It’s pretty sweet shooting. They won’t replace my long range 6.5cm that I built for out in the fields but I think the 450 will be a great woods rifle
Love to see a new bolt action 45/70. So much aftermarket for 45/70. 45/70 forever!
Not on topic but 8mm Lebel is an interesting example of something that can be stacked in tubular magazine with a pointy tip.
I've seen hoopla on forums about states that spec a 357min, that the 350 legend doesn't meet the requirement as it's a 355. I'm not sure if it's actually upheld or just overlooked I've never bumped into an actual case involving it.
Look at SAAMI, its .357 -0.002". So, its from .355 to .357 pills in Legend.
I've got one of your 1-6 Strike Eagles on my 50 Beowulf. I've got dope out to 500 with my 350g load. It's like watching box cars fall from the sky 🤣
I especially enjoyed this podcast guys. Well done! 450 marlin is another sledgehammer...maybe I missed you guys talking about it.
The Beowulf was the first cartridge I thought of, and on down the list of A.R. large bore calibers.
I have a model 1873 U .S .Springfield in 45-70 in a very low serial number or at least I believe to be a low number. But because it is so old I will never shoot it again because of the fear of damaging it . I have shot it many years ago and with the steel butt plate it does put a hurting on you . Love your Pod Casts
Dang - that is awesome! Hold on to that for sure. We appreciate you tuning in, Willie. Thanks for being a part of Vortex Nation! :)
The valves in your car engine have tapered seats for a better seal and more power.
Canadian Listener Here. Keep up the excellent work.
I have a stainless steel Siamese mouser , with a 24 inch barrel. I shoot a 405 grain 45-70 at 2375 ft/sec. This has over 5,000 ft.lbs of e ergy . No excessive pressure signs.
Grew up pretty poor. Our deer guns were single shot 20 gauge Steven’s break actions. Absoloutley incredibly punishing recoil for a kid. My dad never thought twice about it. Bad side is you will develop a flinch as a 13 year old kid. Good news is a .300 win mag seems fairly tame.
Great video fellas. Well done.
Side note: You Vortex boys need to get on Savage a little bit with their QC. I just bought a 110 APEX in 350L, w/ the Vortex Crossfire II 3-9x40 allegedly mounted properly, boresighted, etc. Suffice it to say, that scope was canted as hell when I pulled the gun from the box. 🤦♂ Not sure if it was made on Friday or before Christmas perhaps? Good help is a diamond in the rough these days. I suppose its possible a lax FedEx driver threw the box over the fence when he dropped it off at the ffl (jk), but the box appeared unscathed. I guess I will find out when I go to the range.
Anyhow/nonetheless, I can't wait to try it out. Thanks again.
Here in Iowa we can now use the 35 whelen with our straight walls. 350 is great but if you want the extra range potential 450/35 whelen is the way to go. I have a Browning 12g A-bolt too. Did we just become friends?!?!
Love the show. Listen to y’all podcast almost everyday!!!! Just picked me up a CVA SCOUT .350 legend for primitive hunting here in Louisiana…. Also listened to yall show on 35 whelen and down here it’s a hugely popular round because it can be used for primitive and regular deer season here… primitive just has to be single shot, breach load and larger than .35 caliber in LA..
Heck yeah - we appreciate that, Tyler! Good luck this season.👊
It totally depends on the States Hunting Regs for Primitive Fire Arms your planning to Whack & Stack in
I am shooting a new Winchester 1886 extra light 4570 I am using cutting edge bullets Safari raptor 250 grain I shoot them over 2700 ft per second no trouble to kill a deer at 300 yards
I think the MAIN reason we moved away from rimfire is the fact in order to fire bigger projectiles faster, (further/flatter etc.), the case needs to be stronger and thicker.......
We can use the 350 in brake open for our primitive weapon season in Mississippi. Primitive Season we can use anything over a 35cal. only if brake open like New England, H&H, or CVA.
Nice to see some normal people range hunting stuff.
🤜🤛
You can use .357 and .44 mag in Indiana because they meet the cartridge overall minimum, but unfortunately the .45-70 is over the maximum and is not allowed.
Great talk, with Illinois being added to the list of strait wall single shots, year 2023, what would you choose with new Remington 360 Buckhammer thrown in the mix???
You guys covered it very well, in my humble opinion. 👍
Its always been my understanding that the main driving element in bottle neck cartridge design was because of the advent of smokeless powder. and the straight wall cartridge states was because of the low velocity its maximum range was really limited versus many bottle necked cartridges that are high velocity that will travel 2 to 3 times the distance before smacking the ground
Some county's in PA are shotgun or straight wall only for Deer. I shoot the 1895, 450 Marlin..
For the safety factor of people shooting moving dear from the ground, add a law to say you have to be 6' off the ground to hunt meaning your rifle eventually have to stop in the dirt by the angle of the shot. thats what law we have in NC. now our clubs do not allow dog pushing of dear as we view that as dangerous or would be buck shot only with measurement between hunter rules.
Just got into straight walled cartridges I never knew in my county that I could hunt with them and I’m stuck between a 45-70 and a 350 legend for the new hunting rig
I don't know why I didn't I didn't notice this video when it came out but here are some facts and opinions. For the 2021 season Iowa (a state where I hunted in my youth and was shotgun with slugs only) now allows some center fire rifle cartridges that really are not straight wall cases BUT minimum bullet diameter ...350" and not over .500" AND minimum muzzle energy of 500 ft lbs. There is a published list on the Iowa DNR website but it states that it is not a complete list. It says if your not sure, contact a local conservation officer. For example the 35 Remington is not listed, but the 350 Bushmaster is. Thus the 35 Remington appears to meet the requirements but the 30/30 Winchester clearly does not. Any rifle with smaller bullet diameter, regardless of case shape or energy is still not legal. The 35 Whelen is on the list of approved cartridges along with the 357 Magnum, 44 Magnum, 444 Marlin, 45-70 Gov't and both your beloved 350 and 450 Bushmasters, but you better check what types of rifles are allowed. I would add 358 Winchester to the list, but I suppose the folks who compiled the list never heard of it. Hand guns that meet the requirements must have a minimum barrel length of 4". New for the 2023 season is that AR-15's shooting a bullet with a minimum diameter of .224 will be legal in a antlerless only season in certain zones or counties. For the bigger, more powerful is always better crowd, if you've got your favorite 358 Norma Magnum, 375 H&H, 416 Rigby or 458 Winchester and you don't want to lay out the cash for something less punishing to shoot some Iowa corn fed deer, you're set to go! I guess that no one there knows how far you can bounce 400 grain 45/70 but farm houses are not as close together as they used to be. The rules were written by the legislature, not DNR, so I won't try to figure anything else.
Mississippi and Louisiana both allow 35 Whelen and larger diameter cartridges during their "primative" seasons, but only in break action rifles with exposed hammers. I've hunted in Mississippi several times with friends and relatives during the regular firearms seasons, always with my 270 Winchester. I was always surrounded by hunters with all kinds and sizes of arms. I would not consider the 35 Whelen or a single shot rifle to be a primative weapon. I guess the law allowing that was a nod from the legislature(s) to the folks that didn't have the money or didn't want to spend the money for anything as difficult to operate as even an in-line muzzle loader to hunt during the "primative" season.
Illinois is still behind the 8-ball. Shotguns or Muzzleloaders only. In Indiana the only center fire rifle you can use is 243 Winchester unless that has changed in recent years. Try to figure that one out! Oh yeah, law written by legislature.
In Kansas, where I live, we can use any center fire rifle, .224 or larger, in any platform, shotguns 20 gauge or larger, slugs only, handguns (I don't remember caliber limitations) and Muzzleloaders, any type, I believe 40 caliber or larger during muzzleloader only season or regular firearms deer season if you desire.
I'd like to go deer hunting with my relatives on their farms in Iowa, but I find their non-resident fees are outrageously expensive. I read one report that said that is because some folks think all us non-residents would wipe out the deer herd. 🤥. Wow! Those evil high powered rifles, AR's! What will they think of next?!
I just confirmed shipping on a 17" 350L for an stoner platform. Planning on using the 4-12 x 56 AO scope. All I need now is some of that post-2020 priced ammo.
Another terminal ballistics episode on specific hunting bullets would be awesome. Is anything needed other than a good old Nosler Partition? Would love to hear y’all’s experience with different bullets
I’ve loved Partitions for decades. But they’ve become so grossly expensive(even way over more precious homogeneous bullets. How has lead gotten that much more expensive than lead?!) I question Nosler’s motives regarding the Partition
From what I've been reading in the regs Iowa has started to allow bottleneck cartridges provided they are 35 cal or larger. Theres a list of allowable cartridges on the Iowa hunting regulations website and it says the lost is not all inclusive then list the benchmarks you have to meet. Thinking of building a 35 Whelen.
Smokeless powder was the technology that made bottleneck cartridges possible, even early pistol cartridges at the dawn of smokeless powder were bottleneck cartridges like 7.63 Mauser
I have a CVA Scout single shot in 350L. 20” barrel. It’s topped with the Diamondback HP 4-16x42 with the Dead-Hold BDC reticle. I shoot the Barnes 170 grain ammo for whitetail deer. No access to a chrono. Wonder what my holds would be.
In Louisiana and Mississippi you are allowed to use 35 Whelen as long as it is single shot and has an exposed hammer!
The other why when it comes to .450 bushmaster vs .45-70 is the case length requirement in southern Michigan. That brings us to .360 buckhammer, which has a case length that exactly matches that case length.
It would be nice to hear about the 30 Rem. AR in your podcast. P.S. love your show
I think that this cartage is unknown but one of the better AR calibers
Love to hear Ryan's thought's on it
The old 444 Marlin with Marshal of Bear tooth bullets load data . Takes the Triple 4 to a new level. Think I was 2100 fps with a 300gr bullet from my '78 336 444. That load would give just shy of 3k ft lbs of energy. Anchoring deer is an understatement lol
Good ol Wisconsin used to be like that with the no rifle thing. When I used to live up there, first started hunting after getting my DNR Hunters Safety certificate at the age of 12. I was so sad as a kid to learn in Southern Wisconsin it was a shotgun slug or handgun only. I totally wanted to get my first deer with my dads old 30-06!!! Seriously bummed me out, LOL They changed that though so now statewide unless in a unit otherwise restricted, one can now use the rifles.
the 350 Legend in a bolt gun sounds really interesting but so far I haven't seen any lead free ammo options as needed here in California for hunting.
Bear Creek Ballistics (I guess the link was removed). They have a 160gr all Cu. I had to wait several weeks, but I ordered these. I have not had a chance to get out there and fire them. My barrel is shipping soon.
Barnes should have something for you.
In the 50s, deer season in the upper Mid-West was when Government Cattle started grazing too much in your pasture.
I know some states that used to not allow centerfires have begun allowing straight walled cartridges. Well, my state has always allowed centerfires because we aren't a shitty state like that, but if the SC DNR would start allowing straight walls during muzzleloader season, I would quit breaking the law during muzzleloader season. I've shot several deer with the old muzzleloading .308 and 30-06.
My 8” barreled 460 S&W Mag has an average velocity of 2350FPS with 200gn FTX rounds. I can only imagine what that velocity would be in a 16.5”-22” deer hunting rifle 😮. Seems it might be faster and hitting harder than many of the new straight walls (350 legend, 360 Buckhammer, 450 bushmaster rounds). Wonder why more rifles weren’t chambered for this?