i think that he fully acknowledges the reason for that.. but maybe because of brain damage or woolly overly liberal thinking - would still like to somehow still include some men in that separate women's category..
@@andipandi5641 I like your comment so much that I want to give you another YouT channel you might like: type this into search line: You're Kiddin', Right?
@@andipandi5641 What argument can you give for putting transgenders in women's sports that doesn't also apply to plain old non transitioned men in women's sports?
Well yeah that's the end result of his entire argument, which is of course incredibly weak and misguided. "Everyone who wins has an advantage so no advantage is unfair".. ok Peter so then lets have unisex sports, why are we segregating women off if no advantage is unfair and its only winners and losers in the end? Its a pathetic argument, and to be honest it sounds like the argument of a man who has never competed in a physical sport and hasn't competed much in the real world full stop. The sadest thing is when he started the discussion basically apologising that he would be talking to a trans person but wasn't one himself "but I am a Ally, please allow me to speak I'm your friend!!" pathetic.
Peter is full of it and he knows it. There is a clear and distinct advantage of the male physique over the female physique and it is very well documented. Why does he think men and women have separate sports classes in the first place?!? How does he envision, say, a Mike Tyson taking up boxing in the women's boxing league? Surely he must realise that this would be not only absurd, but downright dangerous? He would kill the first female opponent he would box against. This idiotic and obscene IOC ruling will be the death of women's sports!
Stop comparing men to women and conflating that with cis women versus transgender women. Transgender women are not physically the same as men due to HRT. Debbie is a TERF, they may consider themselves transgender but they do not reflect the views of the transgender community at large. No surprise that Debbie is pulled in to validate the hate aimed at transgender women. Debbie speaks for herself and has a view that does not align with the community at large.
@@meagan8666 I'm sorry, but what you're saying is factually incorrect. Biologically they are exactly the same as other men, except they have taken HRT and possibly sex reassignment surgery. This, however, does not undo the physical changes that they underwent when they went through testosterone-fueled puberty. I'm sorry to break this scientific fact to you. Bigger joints, bigger cardiovascular capacity, different pelvic structure which results in a different Q-angle (the femur to tibia angle), muscle size and density. Even a man's individual muscle fibers are larger than those of a woman. This is all basic biology. Again, this does not get undone by HRT. The person in question may lose some upper-body strength but next to nothing of their leg strength. And you might want to dispense with the TERF insult. The only thing it does is show your affiliation with certain fringe groups that are not interested in an open debate where facts matter. If you cannot see that allowing biological men to participate in women's sports will end said sports you are not being honest. Not to yourself and most certainly not to the biological women bearing the brunt of this unfairness.
@@swokatsamsiyu3590 You are completely wrong. Muscle mass is definitely impacted by HRT as is hemoglobin levels among other things. A transgender woman on HRT can not compete anywhere near the level of a cis man. I am speaking from experience as a transgender woman who has taken HRT for many many years. Most internet warrior experts are pouring over the data for one reason and one only to build support for an argument that places transgender women at odds with cis women….it is literally just a way to spark fear into people by saying such outlandish things as “this is an end to women’s sports”. Transgender people are not even a full percent of the population…you are only concerned with transgender women so cut that number in half. Now you need to find transgender women who want to play sports instead of I don’t know…anything else but that. Even if that number of transgender women were at peak performance you are talking about a handful of people. There are scientific documents that say exactly what you are saying and the people that have written those are 99.9% of the time gender critical and they got the “scientific” answer they looked for. As far as “having a debate” - you don’t get to have a debate on the validity of someone else’s existence….end of.
Nope. They don’t speak for the community and are only called on because they consider themselves transgender and have they have the anti-trans view. They do not speak for the community as a whole.
Who the hell do you think you are talking sense ? Did you not know that is frowned on by all and thickerie ? Shame on you for being logical.... Again shame on you ! Aaaah! sod it, ok then you,re right. ;-)
This miserable decision is the complete DESTRUCTION of women's sports. Henceforward, there are only men's sports leagues - standard men's sports and men-who-pretend-to-be-women's sports.
Transgender women have been able to compete in the Olympics for over 15 years in the female categories….how many gold medals have they won? I’ll help you……zero.
@@meagan8666 how many women tend to win against the best men in their sports? i tell you: zero. Absolute ZERO. No woman is able to win against the top hundred of their sports. not one women. and you are fine with biological men, WITHOUT HORMONE THERAPY, or any lower testosterone levels, to join women's sports. You are a disgrace
problem is that so many "trans" people wrap up so much of the value of their life in the validation that they hope to gain from everyone else validating their female "identity" ..
@@meagan8666 biologically and genetically? Really? Wow, if you can show the proof for that you’ve got an easy Nobel Prize win! Looking forward to your acceptance speech. 🤣
You're not going to get anywhere discussing this using logic and reason. Logic & reason have no power in the face of 'feelings' especially in relation to 'fe/male' issues.
This is the latest one I've seen, Lia Thomas, a senior at the University of Pennsylvania, “scorched the Penn women’s records” in the 200 free and 500 free individual events and “swept” the 100 free individual event. From: Women Are Human.
the real challenge is for women athletes to boycott all sports events that include any men in the women's category.. that could be a more powerful gesture than the black power salute at the 1968 Olympics..
@@markmacpherson90 "Why do women have to stop playing sports because of men?" read what i said again.. and more fully consider it and the implications - and hopefully you will recognise that i did not advocate for women to stop playing sports.. you might assume that if you also assumed that women are incapable of organising their own events.. or if you do not think that organised sport will immediately be forced to capitulate if all women did that.. if an outright boycott - seems too audacious - the other option would be for the female winners of any event to refuse to stand on the podium with any man and instead invite whichever woman or women would have achieved a place to stand together with them to one side of the podium..
Boycott seems a reasonable move today. This will clear messages to the policymakers that don't mess up with the majority just to please the minority with nonsensical science and arguments. If it succeeds, I believe they will rethink the decision
@@wapleviathan4006 to be honest - i seldom give a fuck about any majority - i am only concerned about individuals recognising and asserting their own power when they need to in order to serve their own best interests and to stand with their fellows to best insist on having their own rights respected..
Go back 50 years or thereabouts - the word "trans" was all to do with airlines and world travel. Trans people??????? What do you mean? NOW the word is misappropriated to mean an unnatural transformation. "TRANS" is an "in" word because people now have surgical changes, to "align" their self-image, with physical appearance. FINE - if that's what they want BUT - the CHROMOSOMES DO NOT LIE!!! Normal, ordinary people are sick of their bleating about "RIGHTS"! They have HUMAN rights - nothing else - nothing "special" - just for them! Nobody forced them to have the operation!!!! When a trans-woman gives birth, via natural conception and gestation - THEN there will be something to discuss. If you catch a cat - and cut it's tail off (please don't!!!) - it IS NOT A MANX CAT!!
Thanks for having the discussion. Peter, humans who have ovaries (functioning or not) are female, humans who have testes (functioning or not) are male. Its as simple as that.
Of course there's a conflict when you say trans women and women are the same. They are categorically and literally NOT the same, thus their issues should not be treated as such. Women need sex-segregated spaces and sex-based rights.
It is unbelievable that we are having this conversation. Essentially, based on the new regulations, I could declare myself a woman, compete as I am, and completely annihilate the women's powerlifting records with relative ease. More to the important point, I would be displacing a biological female from competing. If what they are saying is true, then why not just get rid of the women's division and just compete straight across the board? Why are trans women afraid to compete against the men if there is no difference? Answer me that honestly, and we can have a discussion about it.
In addition to the growth advantages of elevated testosterone experienced throughout puberty, the IOC has now basically green lit trans athletes to use anabolic steroids right up to the competition. The old regs were nonsense, but at least they required suppression of test levels for 12 months before comp. In the interests of fairness, biological female athletes should be allowed to juice right up to comp day too.
@@keithrobinson5752 well, that is a good point. On top of flimsy science, there is also no consistency. If you ask questions, you are automatically a bigot. The entire thing is just silly, but there are real world consequences, particularly for the athletes that are bumped off the teams as a result. Those are the women/girls that I am advocating for. As a father of a beautiful young lady, all I want is for a system that recognizes her as a priority over a male that is possibly suffering from a medical condition.
@@XXXX-yc6wv So biological women have to juice and potentially damage their health in order to complete against men, someone please make this make sense.
i think that ultimately it is about an overall and distinct advantage - or there would not need to be a separate category in the first place.. but once there is that distinction - it is entirely silly to try to quibble about how strong that advantage is or whether that it always applies..
@@andipandi5641 Im actually in favour of open and closed categories, closed for females. Do we allow able bodied people compete in the Special Olympics? Its all a lie to say they dont know the difference. Open and closed categories for equality fairness now!
@@sarahharris2729 i by contrast would be all in favour of able bodied people competing in the special olympics as i also like things much more cut and dried: i would just put blindfolds on all competitors in the blind categories and similarly categorically disable everyone else in each of the other categories.. however - adjusting hormone levels really does not address the overall and fundamental differences between the two sexes..
Those women rugby players would be destroyed by your average 1st 15 boys team. This ruling will eventually kill women's sport. They just don't understand by the time men are 20 testosterone has done its work and that body, will have advantages over a female body
Well Joe would you like to back that up by taking HRT for a year….after all doesn’t matter right. We can see how you feel when you can’t open a jar anymore and need a bras.
She actually isn't that uncommon in the trans community. Many trans people just want to live their life with dignity and respect, and they respect the feelings of others. They don't try to force themselves into spaces that they know would make others feel uncomfortable.
Always a pleasure to hear Debbie speak. She shot into fame for wearing a 'trans women are men' t-shirt and ironically she's a trans woman. Lovely lady and so much respect to her.
Transgender people are more self aware than most people will ever be, the confusion is perhaps with people that have closed their minds to the existence of transgender people who have been with us since before recorded history.
That's right - keep deleting the comment that points out that Tatchell campaigned to legalise sex with Children. I don't think we should be giving a platform to those sort of people.
“ The feeling they are women is so strong it must be founded on physical reality “… It’s hard to take anyone seriously who cannot make an intelligent logical argument. Claiming transgender women and biological women face the exact same issues is delusional.
Yeah, he is a bit more reasonable compared to most but I really loathe the "ally" term. That's the terminology of war, of us against them, the "allied" against the common enemy . It has the tendency to obliterate nuance and - funnily enough (given the gender debate) - reduce complex issues down to polarizing binaries (you either 100% share all our beliefs and values or you don't, which makes you what? The opposite of an ally - an enemy). BLM indulge in the same semantic warfare.
This is MADNESS, the average man has roughly double the upper body strength of the average woman. There's a video here on YT of average (non-athlete) men arm wrestling the strongest woman in the world, and the majority of them beat her pretty easily. When I saw the clips of the biologically male MMA fighter Alana McLaughlin smashing the living sh1t out of some poor woman in the ring, I was horrified, and this is only going to get worse if Tatchell has his way.
Regarding women's rugby and some female rugby players being bigger and stronger than others. That's exactly the same as men's rugby, men of different physiques play in different positions. One thing they should not be doing is playing against women!
I watched the England women's rugby match recently (against usa). Peter's wrong in my opinion, those players didn't look big, butch and comparable to Male players. They looked very fit and strong and very feminine. They wouldn't be able to compete very well against the Male England team because of strength power and speed.
I like the way Debbie presents a clear and logical argument. The other guy is delusional. He’s can’t represent womens rights. HE IS NOT A WOMAN. He wants to promote trans womens rights at the expense of women. Trans women are trans women. I am a woman I do not have a prefix to define me.
Peter is talking utter nonsense. We all know what a woman is so stop pretending we don’t. Trans people can play in sport but men should not be able to participate in woman’s sport. Make a new third category for trans people then they can play fairly against each other.
Andrew White Why not simply create a category for transwomen and whoever wants to watch that, can. It is not discrimination but basic common sense. Have followed Debbie Hayton on twitter for a while, love the balance and logic in his views.
Andrew I think you were rather soft on Peter Tatchell. His arguments were so weak, it would have been child's play to demonstrate that. I'm usually a big fan of yours & at least you are tackling subjects other media outlets don't dare to, but I'm disappointed. The only person who stood up for scientific facts & truth was Debbie.
Tatchell didn't have any true arguments. As usual, he just waffled on with reasonable-sounding soundbites that had no substance and no logic. He's a master at talking lots and saying absolutely nothing of any value.
She is the most rationale trans person and it's mostly because of her science background. I don't mind about using pronouns that they are comfortable with and how they express themselves, but biological sex is a reality. Either they should have their seperate space or included according to their sex.
The trouble with using preferred pronouns is that it makes a mockery of language, and language defines reality. Rape by trans women is now being recorded in women's crime statistics, because trans women are called 'she'. She raped her, doesn't really make much sense, does it? Pronouns are important.
@@BigDog366 I don't think language defines reality. Language can be made inclusive. It can be defined however we want it to defined. But your sex is a reality.
"biological sex is a reality" - YES it's determined by genetics, not a surgeons knife - it is the pairing of the chromosomes. No matter WHAT sort of invasive surgical modifications are made "She" is actually a "HE"!
Peter Tatchell - "Michael Phelps had big feet" - clearly the same as a man having greater power, strength, and higher muscle mass competing against a woman.
It's so refreshing to hear Debbie take on the issues from such a dispassionate fact based position. Too often these debates devolve into "but muh feelings!"
The fact that people are discussing this issue is almost like legitimising it. If a woman wants to compete against a man then let her, stupid is as stupid does.
They don’t want to though. They get threatened with their sponsors dropping them if they kick up a fuss. It has to be sorted from the top down. It’s not fair to expect individual female athletes to deal with it alone.
"feeling passionately" that you are a woman doesn't make you one unfortunately. Same as feeling passionately that I am 25 years old doesn't make me a 25 years old, same as feeling passionately that I am a great singer doesn't make me one. Great respect for Debbie.
@venswim Perhaps English is not your first language, so I shouldn't be too harsh on you. However, in English, the noun phrase "some women" is explicitly plural. It means "more than one woman". It cannot be interpreted to mean "just one".
Peter is wrong about the two Namibian athletes. They are not women with naturally high testosterone. They are biologically male, with a DSD. They have internal testes pumping out male levels of testosterone. Let’s be clear about the situation. These athletes have not been through a female puberty, nor do they have the inconvenience of female biology when training.
Feeling passionately that you are a woman doesn’t make you a woman Peter. Feeling passionately that I’m a cheese sandwich doesn’t make me tasty and delicious.
Got no problem with trans athletes, but they should be given their own categorie and compete against each other. Instead of eradicating sportswoman. They say they have no advantage, really? show me a biological woman who has transitioned into a sportsman and excelled?
She did a great interview on Triggernometry. It's hard to argue with the points made by someone who is a) trans and b) a science teacher. Add in her common sense and it's game over for the men=women brigade. Well worth the watch.
Out of the two of them Debbie is the only one willing to consider a solution where both women and men are not disadvantaged in their respective sports. He is the first transgenderp person who I've heard publicly question why is the discussion not about trans in men's sport. Why is the narrative about forcing women to accept transwomen in their traditional sports.
I've been smugly watching from the sidelines for this issue to hit the fan for the last 5 years. I'm a bit disappointed women have just rolled over on this one.
Men have innate physical advantages over women and thinking it’s laudable to ignore this in the pursuit of inclusivity is utterly ridiculous and disingenuous.
Poor old Peter...looking very uncomfortable, and trapped and thinking.. 'Just gotta hang in there for another few years until retirement and then I can say what I like!!.'
So some women and men are pretty equal - BUT what if Mike Tyson said he was a woman (in his prime), would you allow him/her to fight the best female boxer? (even though you know she would be hospitalised)
@Meagan If Mike Tyson took HRT, he would lose some strength. Despite that loss, he would still be much stronger than any biological woman. The loss of strength isn't nearly enough to even the playing field, especially compared to the physiological advantages males have that remain unaffected by HRT, such as heart and lung size, bone density, pelvic shape etc.
Biological sex is a reality, sex identity is a personal fantasy, for narcissist's. Some male some female athletes have advantages due to their physiology, a statement of the obvious, rugby a example used by Tatchell. Several physical types make up a rugby team, its what's great about the sport. But their genders are fixed there is no jumping back and forward, and I note that the case of women identifying as men, playing mens sport is not a issue, why because there is no advantage to the women, there is a advantage to trans women. By all means have a third category in sport where all can compete, just don't expect me to watch it, the very idea is revolting. I have seen trans men beating up women in MMA, I never want to see anything like that again.
Doesn't anybody think that all this Gender Targeting is Wrong? How is it possible to try and justify this as acceptable? (Womens sport for Women.) (Mens Sport for Men) (Transgender Sport for Transgender) There can be no Argument, Everyone is included with in Sport. It seems to me a Simple Solution for all concerned.
I believe that the distinct biological differences between the different sexes mean that some sort of separation is needed to ensure that the playing field is as fair as can be made
Now gays are equal in the UK, he needs another fight to stay relevant. This is easier and safer than fighting for gay rights in less tolerant countries around the world
He seriously hates women and he’s a liar when he says he’s supported women’s rights. He pretends to, but we see the real Peter and his real objective which is to destroy women’s rights.
Transgender women are not a threat to women’s rights and are often found side by side with cis women in feminist pursuits. The whole transgender women are a threat to women is a disguise for bigotry….that’s it.
But gender identity is imagined and biological sex is real. There is literally no end to gender identity because peoples imaginations define it. Which is why we have cat gender in Bristol university. Also mens sport doesn't seem to be threatened by trans men, I wonder why?
Is it possible that his transwoman friend who is small and plays football, just sucks at playing football at a mans level so much so... that they're on par with the women's game, which is much less competitive? I can't believe that the transgendered individual has more sense than the "trans ally" and I respect transgenders that accept they have gender dysphoria, don't let it get them down and push forward with their life-- they can do what they want, they shouldn't be beating up women in UFC or anything else.
while it's useful to have HAYTON making some of these points, it doesnt help the case when HE demands HIS students call him MISS, when HE uses FEMALE facilities and when HIS gender woo-woo BS is still part of the curriculum taught in many UK schools.... hayton is creating a 'i'm the right/true kind of trans' profile for himself, hoping to be spared the backlash when it comes fully into force...
This dude "ally" on the left is ridiculous...so many fallacies in his arguments (especially the: "every individual is different and T-dudes are just another kind of different...soooo, no biggie") I dont even start... The only proof we need: just merge a 100 years history of male and female records at the olympics (or in basically any physical sport in existance, for what matters), and see how many TOP records are held by women over men... NONE! ZERO! NADA! Well done IOC...the coming years in sport will be fun...
Nobody mentioning that women’s legs connect to the knee joint at a different angle to men’s legs, due to women’s wider childbearing hips. This is one contributing factor to men running faster than women.
Gender identity is a individuals choice, sex m/f is a indisputable scientific fact. This is not a difficult concept to understand. 'Inclusion' of male (sex) athletes in female (sex) sports is by definition the exclusion of women from female only (sex) from sports.
Dissolve the categories as the Brits did. Then trans people, men and women won't have to argue about categories. Biological women will just never win anything again but at least a tiny fraction of the population will feel better. By that I don't mean Trans people I mean far left activists.
Peter, your position is that women and transwomen share the same battering from men -such as beatings, rape- and therefore our interests are the same. So Peter, how many transwomen get pregnant from a rape? Have to undergo an abortion from the rape? Have to give birth to child conceived in rape? Put a child up for adoption because of conception from rape? Decide to raise a child that is a product of rape? NONE! We women do not share the same interests as transwomen., ie trans identifying males. Leave our sports to all-female participants. And the fact that transwomen are more comfortable in women’s sports than in men’s sports is not a selling point. What about women’s comfort? Why is our comfort secondary to a small minority that has a clear advantage over us in sports? Transwomen are men. Join the men’s sport teams. Leave us alone.
As a little side thought. How lovely to see a discussion with no interuptions, different points of view, and well presented by Andrew. What struck me was the ability to listen and debate reasonably....whatever your views ( and I have strong ones ), it was fair and good to watch.
The man arguing about lung capacity and feet etc, does not negate the argument about men and women competing. Men with inate advantages should be competing with other men with inate advantages. Women with inate advantages should be competing with other women with inate advantages. Why cant these men compete with men when they are physiologically male.
Thank you Debbie for your voice on TW in women’s sport. A colliding rights issue and a seemingly unsolvable problem. Appreciated Peter’s comment that TW often share the same problems/threats as woman. I don’t think any decent person would disagree but on the sport front, we must find a solution for both categories to compete safely, fairly and inclusively.
Tatchell's argument is that there should be no special category for women. Why we do is what needs to be discussed. I have presumed its to encourage women to compete in sport.
Great content - Peter Tatchell is a truly decent and reasonable person. I think he is struggling here a bit, in an attempt to accommodate conflicting reason, but he is consistent, polite and reasonable. Debbie Hayton is, as usual, consistent and intelligent.
Sport is a physical activity. Men and women are physically different. What sex people THINK they are is irrelevant to sport.
It really is as simple as that isn't it.
@@raia9 it really is
@@raia9 you’d think so but here we are
Agreed 👍🏻 but if the real women athletes don't stand up and fight, no one can help them. Stand up for yourself women.
Amen
I wish someone would've asked Peter why we have women's sport in the first place.
i think that he fully acknowledges the reason for that.. but maybe because of brain damage or woolly overly liberal thinking - would still like to somehow still include some men in that separate women's category..
@@andipandi5641 I like your comment so much that I want to give you another YouT channel you might like:
type this into search line: You're Kiddin', Right?
@@andipandi5641 What argument can you give for putting transgenders in women's sports that doesn't also apply to plain old non transitioned men in women's sports?
@@markh.876 why are you asking me ??
Peter has already done his best to answer that..
Well yeah that's the end result of his entire argument, which is of course incredibly weak and misguided. "Everyone who wins has an advantage so no advantage is unfair".. ok Peter so then lets have unisex sports, why are we segregating women off if no advantage is unfair and its only winners and losers in the end? Its a pathetic argument, and to be honest it sounds like the argument of a man who has never competed in a physical sport and hasn't competed much in the real world full stop.
The sadest thing is when he started the discussion basically apologising that he would be talking to a trans person but wasn't one himself "but I am a Ally, please allow me to speak I'm your friend!!" pathetic.
Peter is full of it and he knows it. There is a clear and distinct advantage of the male physique over the female physique and it is very well documented. Why does he think men and women have separate sports classes in the first place?!? How does he envision, say, a Mike Tyson taking up boxing in the women's boxing league? Surely he must realise that this would be not only absurd, but downright dangerous? He would kill the first female opponent he would box against. This idiotic and obscene IOC ruling will be the death of women's sports!
Stop comparing men to women and conflating that with cis women versus transgender women. Transgender women are not physically the same as men due to HRT. Debbie is a TERF, they may consider themselves transgender but they do not reflect the views of the transgender community at large. No surprise that Debbie is pulled in to validate the hate aimed at transgender women. Debbie speaks for herself and has a view that does not align with the community at large.
@@meagan8666
I'm sorry, but what you're saying is factually incorrect. Biologically they are exactly the same as other men, except they have taken HRT and possibly sex reassignment surgery. This, however, does not undo the physical changes that they underwent when they went through testosterone-fueled puberty. I'm sorry to break this scientific fact to you. Bigger joints, bigger cardiovascular capacity, different pelvic structure which results in a different Q-angle (the femur to tibia angle), muscle size and density. Even a man's individual muscle fibers are larger than those of a woman. This is all basic biology. Again, this does not get undone by HRT. The person in question may lose some upper-body strength but next to nothing of their leg strength.
And you might want to dispense with the TERF insult. The only thing it does is show your affiliation with certain fringe groups that are not interested in an open debate where facts matter. If you cannot see that allowing biological men to participate in women's sports will end said sports you are not being honest. Not to yourself and most certainly not to the biological women bearing the brunt of this unfairness.
100% Full of it
How dare you! - Greta Thunberg
@@swokatsamsiyu3590 You are completely wrong. Muscle mass is definitely impacted by HRT as is hemoglobin levels among other things. A transgender woman on HRT can not compete anywhere near the level of a cis man. I am speaking from experience as a transgender woman who has taken HRT for many many years. Most internet warrior experts are pouring over the data for one reason and one only to build support for an argument that places transgender women at odds with cis women….it is literally just a way to spark fear into people by saying such outlandish things as “this is an end to women’s sports”. Transgender people are not even a full percent of the population…you are only concerned with transgender women so cut that number in half. Now you need to find transgender women who want to play sports instead of I don’t know…anything else but that. Even if that number of transgender women were at peak performance you are talking about a handful of people.
There are scientific documents that say exactly what you are saying and the people that have written those are 99.9% of the time gender critical and they got the “scientific” answer they looked for.
As far as “having a debate” - you don’t get to have a debate on the validity of someone else’s existence….end of.
Debbie literally destroys the whole argument when she says ' we are 3 men talking"...
I thought am the only one who heard that lol.
Lmao.....love it.
Them why do you refer to him as "she"?
🤡🤡🤡
@@koldeybekov Because I am polite...
Nope. They don’t speak for the community and are only called on because they consider themselves transgender and have they have the anti-trans view. They do not speak for the community as a whole.
It's very simple. Sports is separated by sex, not by gender. There shouldn't even be a discussion about this.
Totally agree.
Who the hell do you think you are talking sense ? Did you not know that is frowned on by all and thickerie ? Shame on you for being logical.... Again shame on you ! Aaaah! sod it, ok then you,re right. ;-)
@@mobyd7990 😁👍
The is the most intelligent concise comment I've seen here.
But gender is completely linked to sex anyway
This miserable decision is the complete DESTRUCTION of women's sports. Henceforward, there are only men's sports leagues - standard men's sports and men-who-pretend-to-be-women's sports.
Transgender women have been able to compete in the Olympics for over 15 years in the female categories….how many gold medals have they won? I’ll help you……zero.
THE CHROMOSOMES CANNOT LIE!!!
Exactly
@@meagan8666 Did you listen to the opening statement about the change in the requirements
@@meagan8666 how many women tend to win against the best men in their sports? i tell you: zero. Absolute ZERO. No woman is able to win against the top hundred of their sports. not one women. and you are fine with biological men, WITHOUT HORMONE THERAPY, or any lower testosterone levels, to join women's sports. You are a disgrace
Has there ever been a trans man (woman) win in a male sport competing against men..? ...NO.!!
because they all lose.
And because, very strangely, they don’t feel as entitled
Why cant Trans people just be proud of being trans and go and have their own Trans-sports!!!!
Jeez, it's not that difficult is it??????????????
problem is that so many "trans" people wrap up so much of the value of their life in the validation that they hope to gain from everyone else validating their female "identity" ..
The media/politicians like to create unnecessary problems for trans people so that way they can take credit for “fixing them.”
There aren’t enough transgender people and transgender women are women.
@@meagan8666 biologically and genetically? Really? Wow, if you can show the proof for that you’ve got an easy Nobel Prize win! Looking forward to your acceptance speech. 🤣
@@meagan8666 trans women are not women, they are trans women. And nothing is wrong with that.
If there was no difference between men and women, why do trans women have such an impact in women's sport, while trans men have none in men's ?
You're not going to get anywhere discussing this using logic and reason. Logic & reason have no power in the face of 'feelings' especially in relation to 'fe/male' issues.
They don't have an impact on women's sports.
And trans men are also equal in men's sports.
@@asmrplushpaws Thank you for demonstrating the point. Fair day & be well.
@@M-S_4321 talk
You couldn’t have been handed a better line! 😂
This is the latest one I've seen,
Lia Thomas, a senior at the University of Pennsylvania, “scorched the Penn women’s records” in the 200 free and 500 free individual events and “swept” the 100 free individual event.
From: Women Are Human.
the real challenge is for women athletes to boycott all sports events that include any men in the women's category.. that could be a more powerful gesture than the black power salute at the 1968 Olympics..
Totally agree, and well said.
Why do women have to stop playing sports because of men? Why don't Men get their shit together and stop this nonsense.
@@markmacpherson90 "Why do women have to stop playing sports because of men?"
read what i said again.. and more fully consider it and the implications - and hopefully you will recognise that i did not advocate for women to stop playing sports..
you might assume that if you also assumed that women are incapable of organising their own events.. or if you do not think that organised sport will immediately be forced to capitulate if all women did that..
if an outright boycott - seems too audacious - the other option would be for the female winners of any event to refuse to stand on the podium with any man and instead invite whichever woman or women would have achieved a place to stand together with them to one side of the podium..
Boycott seems a reasonable move today. This will clear messages to the policymakers that don't mess up with the majority just to please the minority with nonsensical science and arguments. If it succeeds, I believe they will rethink the decision
@@wapleviathan4006 to be honest - i seldom give a fuck about any majority - i am only concerned about individuals recognising and asserting their own power when they need to in order to serve their own best interests and to stand with their fellows to best insist on having their own rights respected..
"Why are we singling out trans women?"
Oh how about cause they are not women?
Yes they are. Be mad about it.
@@meagan8666 nah, they’re really not. Biological reality is important.
Go back 50 years or thereabouts - the word "trans" was all to do with airlines and world travel. Trans people??????? What do you mean?
NOW the word is misappropriated to mean an unnatural transformation.
"TRANS" is an "in" word because people now have surgical changes, to "align" their self-image, with physical appearance.
FINE - if that's what they want BUT - the CHROMOSOMES DO NOT LIE!!!
Normal, ordinary people are sick of their bleating about "RIGHTS"! They have HUMAN rights - nothing else - nothing "special" - just for them!
Nobody forced them to have the operation!!!!
When a trans-woman gives birth, via natural conception and gestation - THEN there will be something to discuss.
If you catch a cat - and cut it's tail off (please don't!!!) - it IS NOT A MANX CAT!!
Exactly, totally agree.
@@meagan8666 you are mad about that. they will never be females. NEVER
It’s ok to be wrong and Peter is very wrong.
Thanks for having the discussion. Peter, humans who have ovaries (functioning or not) are female, humans who have testes (functioning or not) are male. Its as simple as that.
As Exulsanic says "Humans come in two flavors, male n female." End of discussion🌬🕊💜
Of course there's a conflict when you say trans women and women are the same. They are categorically and literally NOT the same, thus their issues should not be treated as such. Women need sex-segregated spaces and sex-based rights.
ISN'T IT A SAD STATE OF AFFAIRS, THAT WHAT YOU SAY IS TRUE?
It is unbelievable that we are having this conversation. Essentially, based on the new regulations, I could declare myself a woman, compete as I am, and completely annihilate the women's powerlifting records with relative ease. More to the important point, I would be displacing a biological female from competing.
If what they are saying is true, then why not just get rid of the women's division and just compete straight across the board? Why are trans women afraid to compete against the men if there is no difference? Answer me that honestly, and we can have a discussion about it.
In addition to the growth advantages of elevated testosterone experienced throughout puberty, the IOC has now basically green lit trans athletes to use anabolic steroids right up to the competition.
The old regs were nonsense, but at least they required suppression of test levels for 12 months before comp.
In the interests of fairness, biological female athletes should be allowed to juice right up to comp day too.
Thank you
Even better , you can as easly 'trans' back to being a man at anytime , and repeat the process when its suits.
@@keithrobinson5752 well, that is a good point. On top of flimsy science, there is also no consistency. If you ask questions, you are automatically a bigot. The entire thing is just silly, but there are real world consequences, particularly for the athletes that are bumped off the teams as a result. Those are the women/girls that I am advocating for. As a father of a beautiful young lady, all I want is for a system that recognizes her as a priority over a male that is possibly suffering from a medical condition.
@@XXXX-yc6wv So biological women have to juice and potentially damage their health in order to complete against men, someone please make this make sense.
In Peter Tatchell's world there would be no paralympics. He'd want athletes with disabilities to compete against able-bodied athletes.
It's not about advantage, its about saying NO because they are not female. JFC.
Thank you.
i think that ultimately it is about an overall and distinct advantage - or there would not need to be a separate category in the first place..
but once there is that distinction - it is entirely silly to try to quibble about how strong that advantage is or whether that it always applies..
@@andipandi5641 Im actually in favour of open and closed categories, closed for females. Do we allow able bodied people compete in the Special Olympics? Its all a lie to say they dont know the difference. Open and closed categories for equality fairness now!
@@sarahharris2729
i by contrast would be all in favour of able bodied people competing in the special olympics as i also like things much more cut and dried:
i would just put blindfolds on all competitors in the blind categories and similarly categorically disable everyone else in each of the other categories..
however - adjusting hormone levels really does not address the overall and fundamental differences between the two sexes..
How dare you! - Greta Thunberg
Those women rugby players would be destroyed by your average 1st 15 boys team. This ruling will eventually kill women's sport. They just don't understand by the time men are 20 testosterone has done its work and that body, will have advantages over a female body
Oh you mean like what happened to the US womens football team.
Well Joe would you like to back that up by taking HRT for a year….after all doesn’t matter right. We can see how you feel when you can’t open a jar anymore and need a bras.
@@meagan8666 have you ever competed in a sport at a level higher than the school sports day?
Debbie blew me away for once a voice of reason from the trans community.
She actually isn't that uncommon in the trans community. Many trans people just want to live their life with dignity and respect, and they respect the feelings of others. They don't try to force themselves into spaces that they know would make others feel uncomfortable.
Let trans have their own categories
I don’t get that they don’t input this simple and fair solution.
They could have their own category at the paralympics or compete against others of their biological sex.
Always a pleasure to hear Debbie speak. She shot into fame for wearing a 'trans women are men' t-shirt and ironically she's a trans woman. Lovely lady and so much respect to her.
What a sad, confused world we live in.
Transgender people are more self aware than most people will ever be, the confusion is perhaps with people that have closed their minds to the existence of transgender people who have been with us since before recorded history.
@@meagan8666 The confusion you seem to have is biological facts or have you decided to close your mind on that ?.
That's right - keep deleting the comment that points out that Tatchell campaigned to legalise sex with Children. I don't think we should be giving a platform to those sort of people.
Men on average have larger heart and lung capacity and higher bone and muscle density all of which give them advantages in athletic pursuits.
Do not forget a radically different pelvic shape as well. This directly influences things like speed, strength etc.
@@swokatsamsiyu3590 Yup, forgot that one.
The rugby women's do train to be that size and strength, but she will never be as strong as a Male man by birth or a transgender male to a woman,
“ The feeling they are women is so strong it must be founded on physical reality “… It’s hard to take anyone seriously who cannot make an intelligent logical argument. Claiming transgender women and biological women face the exact same issues is delusional.
Awesome job Debbie. I don’t agree with Peter’s position but he’s at least easy to listen to compared to other trans activists.
Yeah, he is a bit more reasonable compared to most but I really loathe the "ally" term. That's the terminology of war, of us against them, the "allied" against the common enemy . It has the tendency to obliterate nuance and - funnily enough (given the gender debate) - reduce complex issues down to polarizing binaries (you either 100% share all our beliefs and values or you don't, which makes you what? The opposite of an ally - an enemy). BLM indulge in the same semantic warfare.
This is MADNESS, the average man has roughly double the upper body strength of the average woman. There's a video here on YT of average (non-athlete) men arm wrestling the strongest woman in the world, and the majority of them beat her pretty easily. When I saw the clips of the biologically male MMA fighter Alana McLaughlin smashing the living sh1t out of some poor woman in the ring, I was horrified, and this is only going to get worse if Tatchell has his way.
Regarding women's rugby and some female rugby players being bigger and stronger than others. That's exactly the same as men's rugby, men of different physiques play in different positions. One thing they should not be doing is playing against women!
XY doesn't magically become XX through wishing it to be so, no matter what medications and hormones are taken. SCIENCE
Exactly.....no getting away from that wee Y chromosome....no matter what surgery or drugs .....it will always be there
I watched the England women's rugby match recently (against usa). Peter's wrong in my opinion, those players didn't look big, butch and comparable to Male players. They looked very fit and strong and very feminine. They wouldn't be able to compete very well against the Male England team because of strength power and speed.
I like the way Debbie presents a clear and logical argument. The other guy is delusional. He’s can’t represent womens rights. HE IS NOT A WOMAN. He wants to promote trans womens rights at the expense of women. Trans women are trans women. I am a woman I do not have a prefix to define me.
Hear, Hear👏👏👏👏👏
Possibly more importantly, trans women are men and therefore do not belong in sex segregated categories or places which are designated “women”
If you ever wanted to see the face of misogyny, it's Peter Tatchell.
Peter is talking utter nonsense. We all know what a woman is so stop pretending we don’t. Trans people can play in sport but men should not be able to participate in woman’s sport. Make a new third category for trans people then they can play fairly against each other.
Imagine being a teenager in this day and age, things like this being worthy of debate. Absolutely mental
I’m with you how do we lead when th(s is not debated in a health wa/
Boycott Beijing's winter Olympics untill the new guidelines change.
Otherwise there is now point in any women's competition going forward.
Andrew White Why not simply create a category for transwomen and whoever wants to watch that, can. It is not discrimination but basic common sense. Have followed Debbie Hayton on twitter for a while, love the balance and logic in his views.
Andrew I think you were rather soft on Peter Tatchell. His arguments were so weak, it would have been child's play to demonstrate that. I'm usually a big fan of yours & at least you are tackling subjects other media outlets don't dare to, but I'm disappointed. The only person who stood up for scientific facts & truth was Debbie.
Tatchell didn't have any true arguments. As usual, he just waffled on with reasonable-sounding soundbites that had no substance and no logic. He's a master at talking lots and saying absolutely nothing of any value.
So, the IOC has essentially green lit certain athletes to have the equivalent of anabolic steroids in their system?
Debbie seems like a decent, Genuine person. I wish her well.
Him
Him
Him. He destroyed his family for a fetish.
Him
She is the most rationale trans person and it's mostly because of her science background. I don't mind about using pronouns that they are comfortable with and how they express themselves, but biological sex is a reality. Either they should have their seperate space or included according to their sex.
The trouble with using preferred pronouns is that it makes a mockery of language, and language defines reality. Rape by trans women is now being recorded in women's crime statistics, because trans women are called 'she'. She raped her, doesn't really make much sense, does it? Pronouns are important.
@@BigDog366 I don't think language defines reality. Language can be made inclusive. It can be defined however we want it to defined. But your sex is a reality.
"biological sex is a reality" - YES it's determined by genetics, not a surgeons knife - it is the pairing of the chromosomes.
No matter WHAT sort of invasive surgical modifications are made "She" is actually a "HE"!
3 males discussing fairness for women.
So what?
Peter Tatchell - "Michael Phelps had big feet" - clearly the same as a man having greater power, strength, and higher muscle mass competing against a woman.
How many biological women will make it into men’s rugby team
Debbie is so spot on, men's sports inclusion. Amazing! Instead of trampling the rights of women and girls.
It's insane. It's literally as if they're trying to end Women's sports.
It's so refreshing to hear Debbie take on the issues from such a dispassionate fact based position. Too often these debates devolve into "but muh feelings!"
The fact that people are discussing this issue is almost like legitimising it. If a woman wants to compete against a man then let her, stupid is as stupid does.
They don’t want to though. They get threatened with their sponsors dropping them if they kick up a fuss. It has to be sorted from the top down. It’s not fair to expect individual female athletes to deal with it alone.
female athletes do not want to, nor are they asking for shit like that. they get cancelled if they say something even
"feeling passionately" that you are a woman doesn't make you one unfortunately. Same as feeling passionately that I am 25 years old doesn't make me a 25 years old, same as feeling passionately that I am a great singer doesn't make me one.
Great respect for Debbie.
They are not woman they are men
Hey GBNews, just a thought, but when debating trans inclusion in women's sports, perhaps invite a woman involved in sport on to the show?
Or a woman
Or anyone involved in sports
In this very video (4:09), Andrew Doyle said that they did invite some women, but that they couldn't make it.
@venswim Perhaps English is not your first language, so I shouldn't be too harsh on you. However, in English, the noun phrase "some women" is explicitly plural. It means "more than one woman". It cannot be interpreted to mean "just one".
Peter is wrong about the two Namibian athletes. They are not women with naturally high testosterone. They are biologically male, with a DSD. They have internal testes pumping out male levels of testosterone. Let’s be clear about the situation. These athletes have not been through a female puberty, nor do they have the inconvenience of female biology when training.
Feeling passionately that you are a woman doesn’t make you a woman Peter. Feeling passionately that I’m a cheese sandwich doesn’t make me tasty and delicious.
Got no problem with trans athletes, but they should be given their own categorie and compete against each other. Instead of eradicating sportswoman. They say they have no advantage, really? show me a biological woman who has transitioned into a sportsman and excelled?
Once trans women start winning all the gold medals then people will realize something's "up".
This Debbie person really surprised me, pleasantly.
She did a great interview on Triggernometry. It's hard to argue with the points made by someone who is a) trans and b) a science teacher. Add in her common sense and it's game over for the men=women brigade. Well worth the watch.
@@Diamondphobe thanks, must check that out!
Men's category, Women's category, Trans category that's the only way sports can be fair
@Andyk those categories apply to disabled athletes too.
Otherwise, it’s like you are saying disabled are not human
Seems like common sense doesn't it...
Just because you say you are a chair doesn't make you one or make it true
Debbie may well be the only man on the panel.
No, no, no. There is no “nuance”, Peter. Period.
Out of the two of them Debbie is the only one willing to consider a solution where both women and men are not disadvantaged in their respective sports. He is the first transgenderp person who I've heard publicly question why is the discussion not about trans in men's sport. Why is the narrative about forcing women to accept transwomen in their traditional sports.
I've been smugly watching from the sidelines for this issue to hit the fan for the last 5 years. I'm a bit disappointed women have just rolled over on this one.
So why not have a trans gender category.
i guess cos no one would want to watch it ..
An Open category instead of Mens would work. It is open to all 1275 genders and may the best one win. Women’s is for women only.
Why don't biological men just compete against men.
No
Men have innate physical advantages over women and thinking it’s laudable to ignore this in the pursuit of inclusivity is utterly ridiculous and disingenuous.
Poor old Peter...looking very uncomfortable, and trapped and thinking.. 'Just gotta hang in there for another few years until retirement and then I can say what I like!!.'
Debbie is talking so much sense !
That’s the stupidest goddamn decision the IOC could have made. So, of course, they went with that.
So some women and men are pretty equal - BUT what if Mike Tyson said he was a woman (in his prime), would you allow him/her to fight the best female boxer? (even though you know she would be hospitalised)
If he took HRT he wouldn’t still be physically the same. I have some excess right here, you want to try it for a year and then get back to me.
@Meagan If Mike Tyson took HRT, he would lose some strength. Despite that loss, he would still be much stronger than any biological woman. The loss of strength isn't nearly enough to even the playing field, especially compared to the physiological advantages males have that remain unaffected by HRT, such as heart and lung size, bone density, pelvic shape etc.
Trans rights? What about women's rights? Are trans rights to completely overshadow women's rights? That is not a definition of Human rights.
Wonderful wise Debbie.
Think about the opinions and who's having them. Can you appreciate how bizarre it is?
Biological sex is a reality, sex identity is a personal fantasy, for narcissist's. Some male some female athletes have advantages due to their physiology, a statement of the obvious, rugby a example used by Tatchell. Several physical types make up a rugby team, its what's great about the sport. But their genders are fixed there is no jumping back and forward, and I note that the case of women identifying as men, playing mens sport is not a issue, why because there is no advantage to the women, there is a advantage to trans women. By all means have a third category in sport where all can compete, just don't expect me to watch it, the very idea is revolting. I have seen trans men beating up women in MMA, I never want to see anything like that again.
When someone is the director of a foundation in their own name I question their motives and ego.
i dont give a shit about testosterone levels. literally the only thing that matters in this debate is whether you were born a male or female
Peter is laughable....surely?
Doesn't anybody think that all this Gender Targeting is Wrong? How is it possible to try and justify this as acceptable? (Womens sport for Women.) (Mens Sport for Men) (Transgender Sport for Transgender) There can be no Argument, Everyone is included with in Sport. It seems to me a Simple Solution for all concerned.
I believe that the distinct biological differences between the different sexes mean that some sort of separation is needed to ensure that the playing field is as fair as can be made
This guy really hates real women.
Peter doesn’t care about women one bit, his assertions to the contrary notwithstanding.
Now gays are equal in the UK, he needs another fight to stay relevant. This is easier and safer than fighting for gay rights in less tolerant countries around the world
He seriously hates women and he’s a liar when he says he’s supported women’s rights. He pretends to, but we see the real Peter and his real objective which is to destroy women’s rights.
Transgender women are not a threat to women’s rights and are often found side by side with cis women in feminist pursuits. The whole transgender women are a threat to women is a disguise for bigotry….that’s it.
@@meagan8666 ha ha 🤣 seriously 😳
But gender identity is imagined and biological sex is real. There is literally no end to gender identity because peoples imaginations define it. Which is why we have cat gender in Bristol university.
Also mens sport doesn't seem to be threatened by trans men, I wonder why?
I would say to GBN to stop giving PT the platform to spout his warped views!
The reason transmen in general don't alter record breaking results in men's categories is proof transwomen have ALOT of advantages.
Debbie is fabulous.
Is it possible that his transwoman friend who is small and plays football, just sucks at playing football at a mans level so much so... that they're on par with the women's game, which is much less competitive?
I can't believe that the transgendered individual has more sense than the "trans ally" and I respect transgenders that accept they have gender dysphoria, don't let it get them down and push forward with their life-- they can do what they want, they shouldn't be beating up women in UFC or anything else.
12:21 funny how a man is telling women how we should do things.
while it's useful to have HAYTON making some of these points, it doesnt help the case when HE demands HIS students call him MISS, when HE uses FEMALE facilities and when HIS gender woo-woo BS is still part of the curriculum taught in many UK schools....
hayton is creating a 'i'm the right/true kind of trans' profile for himself, hoping to be spared the backlash when it comes fully into force...
This dude "ally" on the left is ridiculous...so many fallacies in his arguments (especially the: "every individual is different and T-dudes are just another kind of different...soooo, no biggie") I dont even start...
The only proof we need: just merge a 100 years history of male and female records at the olympics (or in basically any physical sport in existance, for what matters), and see how many TOP records are held by women over men...
NONE! ZERO! NADA!
Well done IOC...the coming years in sport will be fun...
Females may have to form separate leagues with 'Female' only participants.
Let's just pretend, shall we?
Why doesn't that bloke use the plural of "woman", which is WOMEN.
Nobody mentioning that women’s legs connect to the knee joint at a different angle to men’s legs, due to women’s wider childbearing hips. This is one contributing factor to men running faster than women.
Gender identity is a individuals choice, sex m/f is a indisputable scientific fact. This is not a difficult concept to understand. 'Inclusion' of male (sex) athletes in female (sex) sports is by definition the exclusion of women from female only (sex) from sports.
So are you not a women?
No!
Classic
Why are we listening to Peter Tichell, what experience does he have on anything other than being an trans ally.
Dissolve the categories as the Brits did. Then trans people, men and women won't have to argue about categories. Biological women will just never win anything again but at least a tiny fraction of the population will feel better. By that I don't mean Trans people I mean far left activists.
Peter, your position is that women and transwomen share the same battering from men -such as beatings, rape- and therefore our interests are the same. So Peter, how many transwomen get pregnant from a rape? Have to undergo an abortion from the rape? Have to give birth to child conceived in rape? Put a child up for adoption because of conception from rape? Decide to raise a child that is a product of rape? NONE!
We women do not share the same interests as transwomen., ie trans identifying males. Leave our sports to all-female participants. And the fact that transwomen are more comfortable in women’s sports than in men’s sports is not a selling point. What about women’s comfort? Why is our comfort secondary to a small minority that has a clear advantage over us in sports?
Transwomen are men. Join the men’s sport teams. Leave us alone.
As a little side thought. How lovely to see a discussion with no interuptions, different points of view, and well presented by Andrew. What struck me was the ability to listen and debate reasonably....whatever your views ( and I have strong ones ), it was fair and good to watch.
The man arguing about lung capacity and feet etc, does not negate the argument about men and women competing. Men with inate advantages should be competing with other men with inate advantages. Women with inate advantages should be competing with other women with inate advantages. Why cant these men compete with men when they are physiologically male.
Thank you Debbie for your voice on TW in women’s sport. A colliding rights issue and a seemingly unsolvable problem. Appreciated Peter’s comment that TW often share the same problems/threats as woman. I don’t think any decent person would disagree but on the sport front, we must find a solution for both categories to compete safely, fairly and inclusively.
You put a woman's rugby team against a man's rugby team and the men will annihilate the women
1:10 Lol! Try doing a test cycle and see for yourself what happens. "Not well understood"...these jokers...
Tatchell's argument is that there should be no special category for women. Why we do is what needs to be discussed. I have presumed its to encourage women to compete in sport.
Great content - Peter Tatchell is a truly decent and reasonable person. I think he is struggling here a bit, in an attempt to accommodate conflicting reason, but he is consistent, polite and reasonable. Debbie Hayton is, as usual, consistent and intelligent.