Bullet heaven is elegant and immediately understandable. Rogue-like, lite, whatever is confusing. The genre is big enough now that it should have its own tag
rogue-like/lite is one of what I consider super-genres like puzzle games or action games it tells you something, but it's just too broad at this point to be meaningful by itself.
I like the amount an consistency of updates for bullet heavens. I’ve been playing Boneraiser Minions a lot recently and it has weekly major updates every Monday often adding new classes and minions and traps to mess with so whenever I play there is usually new content to try.
Now that you mentioned "turn based" I'll try to bring light on a game I found during this steam next: chess survivors. It's a quick turn (think crypt of the necrodancer) where your enemies are chess pieces and use those patterns to attack and move. I already mentioned it on a comment in another video, but it's such a neat idea that could work really well and I'd be sad if it never came to be.
@@WanderbotPrime Your trash level is other's peak performance. Could be a good learning experience for everyone involved? Series where the creator dumps can be fun when the haters are rooted out, but probably detrimental to the channel. If only there was an easy way to show off those poor performances without it tanking the channel. I'd like to get involved, but your godlike series actually leaves me no other choice than reducing my viewing to a podcast level. Other than fawning over your performance, I can't contribute in any way.
I don't know how I hadn't drawn the mental throughline of Flash games, and this new wave of low budget + low price games!?? That's like... supposed to be my whole thing! I suddenly better understand what has drawn me most to this side of the indie sphere. You don't flick on a video talking about game genres, and expect to learn something about yourself ;) Great work! I'll feel bad for Matt Roszak. But maybe it really is the best title for the genre?
As a person who lectures on games and serious games. I fully agree. Simple, short intuitive and most importantly communicates the necessary information. It's also just too catchy not to stick.
Hearing this video makes me want to make a bullet heaven! Looks relatively simple to make, if you get a few graphic bundles. Though iterating on it will probably be the most difficult part of it, mmmh...
Been waiting for this video for a while and I am glad you made it. I think Bullet Heaven works because it echoes another genre instead of another game ( the [Any game]-like is valid naming convention, for different cases like hommage or parodies imho) and with the mental image of bullet hell in mind, flipping it over by saying bullet heaven gives a fairly accurate sentiment of what the game is like and the intended experience. The genre is so fertile with great ideas and I'm hoping for more innovation within it so giving it a banner to rally toward will indeed help both games and gamers get their bearing in this ever expanding and densifying environment. Thank you for the time and effort for this video and your absolute amazing dedication to this genre and so many other incredible games you help put into the light.
So a friend introduced this video to me(and the genre name Bullet Heaven) because I wanted to make a Bullet Heaven game for my friends. The Power Fantasy aspect of Bullet Heavens is really appealing after all. This has been such a great dive into the genre and I hope that after playing a few more games of Bullet Heavens, I can make something truly unique for me and my friends' enjoyment.
Finally got aroudn to watching this 1. I really enjoyed it and agree with the points you made! 2. It's really nice to hear about Bullet Heaven (the duology of games) and EBF series as none of my friends ever heard of them. I played through all 5, 3 rekindled a love of jrpgs that was slowly fading during the middleschool and high school days, and it was a flash game!
I swear I know a bullet-heaven-like from the 2000-2010 era where you played some kind of anime girl with a bow, and each of your attack would stagger your enemies backwards, and if those staggered enemies hit other enemies they'd stagger as well, creating these huge waves of combo's of dying enemies. Of course, this was all over a decade before the genre was as much as defined.
Just use the soundtrack from Spellbook Survivors. Its...ummm....yeah, it's super chill. Like the voices Enya hears when she's self- medicating, or something. Gospel truth.
Bullet heaven is extremely fitting, simple, and memorable, hope people start using the term more and that it actually becomes a proper name for the genre. I love your vids on this channel, the essay style of videos suits you, and i love to just listen to these in the background while i draw or just oogle over your artstyle! Wish ya luck with everything going on right now too, hopefully things settle down soon!~
I was honestly boggled that Bullet Heaven wasn't an industry term after watching a few vids on your main channel, it just fits that well. Also, Yeah, I feel the backlog pain. Regarding flash games, a co-worker of mine got a write-up because he was so addicted to a early 2D tower defense flash game that he was letting the ammo inventory schedule slip lol. He'd play it for hours. We almost had to ban him from the pc.
you mentioned dynasty warriors having the inkling of bullet heaven and I'm just like.... I want that. Some of the Empires games have felt mildly roguelike but man.... Bullet heaven Dynasty warriors I could probably play forever, heh.
Thank you for reviewing easy-to-jump-into games like this. It satisfies my NES and SNES cravings from years gone by. Though I have games that require loading screens and are rather in-depth, sometimes I just want a game that is easy and fun to get into.
Excellent video, thanks Wander! I've tried many, but just don't quite click with beavens (even shorter!)...But I get the same effect from top down ARPGs and a few roguelikes. Grim Dawn is my fav, if I had to pick...But I like all of them. Even the PtW online only ones that are really getting popular now (I don't pay, I just quit when the grind gets to be too much). I do wish ARPGs loaded faster and had smaller, more enemy-dense dungeons, though. So I could get a more bite sized chunk.
Army of Ruin was my 1st Bullet Heaven. I absolutely love it and this genre! I used to play Dynasty Warriors up to the 7th one. You're right. That is damn near a BH game.
I think you and Splattercat were instrumental to popularizing the subgenre so I think you get a little pull on the name of it. I've always thought bullet heaven was an elegant wordplay on bullet hell. I'm a big fan of bullet heavens even though I lack the spacial awareness to be good at bullet hells but I do think there is a significant blurring of the two subgenres, especially as bullet heavens are trying to increase their difficulty now that the audience is getting good at them, to the point that a game could realistically be classified both bullet hell and bullet heaven. I think this is a point in the name's favour though. Bullet heavens to me are kind of like indie musou games and I enjoy them in much the same way I enjoy a good Dynasty Warriors game. Speaking of, something I find funny is that Koei Tecmo and Team Ninja refer to their souls-like games (e.g. Nioh) as 'masocore' rather than souls-like (soulsbournekiroring-like), despite how similar it is gameplay wise as basically a looter souls-like. I imagine it's because of their history with making hard as nails games like Ninja Gaiden in the pre Demon's Souls era (the dark times).
I like reverse-bullet hell and bullet heaven the most I can't call it survivors-like either since it's way too vague of a word and people might confuse it for a survival game
"Mobile Games > Over Monetized Skinner Boxes" Yup. Name checks out. 😆 More seriously, this was an awesome video and I definitely appreciate the push for better genre naming. On the topic of requirements, I'd actually argue the short runtimes are one of the core requirements of the genre, up there with hordes of enemies, as longer games tend to drift into other genres. For example, Nova Drift fits most of the requirements, but I'd consider it an Arcade game, more than a bullet heaven, in large part due to its much longer runs. With that said, a Dynasty Warriors Bullet Heaven would be AMAZING, especially if they kept the flashy combos. I'd be willing to drop a pretty penny on that game.
I’d love to see bullet heavens break the 3D barrier. I think that would draw a huge crowd of people to the genre for more than just the gameplay loop. They’ll come to see crazy visual effects and amazing boss fights. Similar to the jump space shooters made when they went from 2d arcade styles to more modern styles with colorful and bright effects
I love this video so much, thanks. I actually create a lot of convenient descriptive language and categories (words, terms, phrases, systems, and frameworks). That I hope will someday be commonly used in global society.
This has probably been said before but you have a gift for making games seem interesting and I fully agree with the name Bullet heaven rather than anything else. Great video dude and I hope you're having a great time doing the projekts that you're passionate about! Stay aweseome dude!
Great research work Wander! It's a great video explaining a lot about the genre and genre history. While I don't necessarily agree with everything you said, I'm going to give you the W and also start calling it bullet heaven. Because it's more important to have a way to easily precisely identify them over calling these games by a combination of an insane amount of genres.
Genre? Genre? The whole Elden Ring is a pong like got me laughing hard, I have to admit. Overall, another amazing video! Can't wait for the recommendation one.
I played a game like this a long time ago, Its the same genre but quite different from most bullet heavens since they mostly just try to mimic vimpire survivors. This game doesnt because it came out in 2017 and it its called magic survival(super creative title I know). the best way I can explain the artsyle is consentrated scribbles and it is amazing. Since this game is called magic survival all the attacks are magical, but thats not the coolest part. Every time you upgrade an attack enough the final upgrade is a choice between three powerful alternatives. Some might be powerful buffs while others may completely change the attack. One example is the fireball turning into a gas ball and dealing less damage on impact but leaving a residual damage area. Oh, and all the final upgrades visually change the attack as well because the devs are just amazing. There is also treasure chests with a choice of items you can find that give massive buffs or changes to your build, the enemy is this super cool dark chaotic ooze stuff, and the enemies don't drop xp> you immediatly gain a small amount of xp for killing enemies but thats just a small amount. The real way you get xp is from finding magical orbs that spawn randomly like the chests. Anyways I just felt I had to tell people about this game because it is super awesome and massively underrated and you should try it if you are interested in these kinds of games.
SmashTV-like Robotron-esque While I also like the bullet heaven, I am able to use the above examples to better describe these types of games to my own peers. Which I also agree with the not approval of -like descriptions :)
I've been working on a bullet heaven game of my own as of late, with the main gimmick being that the player and all the enemies are Cars. Just gotta get it on steam, which is taking forever :V Oh and it's called Angry Angus, because it's funny.
I thought I was being creative when I named my bullet hell game jam entry, where you play as an angel, "Bullet Heaven", turns out pretty much everyone on the internet already came up with that name and made it a whole genre... xD
I've come back to this, and while I do enjoy the name (which literally sums up what it is, at least in relation to a bullet hell game). on a side note: just as I was about to sleep, I had a thought: "Is Risk of Rain 2 a Bullet Heaven?", it consists of many of the Bullet Heaven elements, only lacking procedural generation, otherwise the runs can go on forever if you want, though some runs are lengthy (30 minutes on average to complete a run), it has some meta progression, I honestly don't know what to think about it.
I think the survival mode kinda works, but the vibe isn't quite there in the same way that Dynasty Warriors gets close, but doesn't actually count. I think it's largely due to the fact that you don't really change over the course of a RoR2 run. Sure your stats improve, but apart from a few red items/weird builds your core moveset remains unchanged. That said if it had an upgrade system closer to Brotato or Nova Drift, it could probably work.
@@WanderbotPrime yeah that's a fair comparison for it, so what matters most about a bullet heaven then would be how it's upgrade system functions in comparison to other roguelikes and the such? Other than the core components of a bullet heaven of course.
Your comments about meta-progression triggered my class roguelike rant to proc. A classic roguelike has no lasting progression either in runs or between runs, and this is an important characteristic. The reason it's important is instructive for bullet heavens, even though, being action games with meta progression, they're not classic roguelikes. The meta-progression of Nethack 3.0 or Caves of Qud is all in your head. You learn how to cheese the game, or at least overcome difficult obstacles. There's an end-game boss fight in Nethack. There are tough enemies, but progress isn't skill-gated by having to fight bullet sponges that defy all the rules you've just learned. Not having meta-progression has another benefit, though. It forces developers to make the game worth replaying just as it is. Nethack and Qud (and Rogue, xarn, Omega, Cataclysim Dark Days Ahead, Tome of Maj-Eyal, etc.) get where they got by being interesting and fun with a variety of different mechanics working together in unique ways that can be endlessly surprising. I'm not saying BH games shouldn't have meta-progression. What I'm bringing up is that like a classic Roguelike, what makes a standout game is replayability that you'd enjoy even if there was no meta-progression.
I've been wondering if a turn-based Bullet Heaven could work. Or, perhaps, something akin to Superhot. Maybe some powerups that are based on your continuous movement?
IMO if you took the combat system from The Last Spell and gave it a Bullet Heaven-y upgrade system instead (and no town to defend), you'd have a fantastic turn-based Bullet Heaven.
Personally I like "Arena Survival", as it's both an accurate summation of the gameplay style and has a light (but not -like or -vania levels of lazy and blatant) reference to the genre founders. And I think it's distinct enough from similar genre labels to be clear. ...But I ain't got no horse in this race, Bullet Heaven works well too.
Almost, but also not really. Even greed mode has you exiting the room frequently, enemies are complex, and the runs are far too long. You could totally turn it into a bullet heaven with ease, but at the moment it doesn't count. Same with nuclear throne.
Under the assumption that time and "room-hopping" are important factors, wouldnt that remove Rogue Genesia and Brotato from Bullet Heaven? Rogue Genesia easily reaches 90min+ runs on its latest World(I am aware that Endless exists). And technically with RG and Brotato you are going from one stage to another, changing Enemies (and distribution of Items, like Crates). While the current iterations of Bullet Heavens go to around 30 minutes(with exception of RG), I do not think that time nor "rooms" should be important factors of Bullet Heavens, even VS will(in 1.0) include ways to exceed 30 minutes. As both still yield undiscovered potential even for Bullet Heavens, excluding them from the get go, does not sit right.
I've been advocating for the name Bullet Heaven since it arised, strongly agree with everything you said, its definitely the name that best encapsulates the genre as a whole.
Man, finally a mention of magic survival. Always bothered me how popular this genre has gotten with basically no mention of a game that basically started the trend
Glad you said this. And credit to Wanderbots for mentioning it. I've wanted to rip my hair out when other content creators compared games like this to Vampire Survivors.
I think this analysis is on point. Thanks for advocating for a distinct name, it brings us closer to getting a fitting tag on steam which would be so important!
I think the "problem" with giving a tag / genre to a game can be hard when you get so "deep" in a spin off of a spin off of a genre, roguelikes is a good example, now its just understood as main mechanic and groups multiple idea together, like one life, no progression, hard, tile based and such, I mean yeah, we could create a new name for the category, but I think its get harder and harder, and then we get rogue lite being a spin off of rogue like. I mean, Battle Royale is just a sub category on how to play a game, its just a game but only one mode, instead of having like a game such as Quake 3 and having several mode to play, instagib, rockets only, etc etc.. BR is a sub category or mode of playing and dont consider it a "genre" in itself IMO I guess since indie made developing sub-sub genre and category, its hard to categorize a game unless you just describe the mechanic of the game itself, "twin stick shooter, bullet hell, tile base, meta progression, one life" So I dont know how we will rename or not roguelikes
This is top-notch analysis. Flash games are an interesting connection. I wonder if something like Amorphous Plus from back in the day could be considered a forerunner to the genre. It had many of the same features but lacked progression and the sheer number of enemies in waves so the gameplay was based more on skill and luck with the RNG since the slimes could create environmental interactions with each other
WOW did not expect to see Magic Survival here. i played that game for a week a while ago (definitely before vampire survivor came out) when it was quite new itself and thought it was neat. but because its a mobile game i didn't really take it serious and thought of a it as just a school project game that the student decided to developed and release (having studied game design myself i had seen similar projects before). now i found it again while looking into this new genre that popped up. to realise that i played the "first" game in a genre when it came out is quite exciting
I have had that game for literally years on my various phones but always forgot about it existence but played again and a syou said it's wild that it was one of, if not technically the first bullet heaven.
16:20 I have about 40 ish games on Steam and 167 games on Gog. I also have about 75 games on my GOG wishlist and about 175 games on my Steam wishlist. I try to buy "established" games on Gog that won't get updated often or don't need mods/online support for the whole DRM thing. I have literally wondered why I never wishlisted a game, only to realize that it's already in my library. And what I normally end up playing day in and out is Rimworld. I keep telling myself when I get a new PC I will play the newer games i have been waiting for. But the fridge died, the house needs painting...
I have this idea of a slasher and horror movie inspired bullet Heaven game. Characters inspired by the likes of Jason, Freddy, Pinhead, Patrick Bateman, Victor Crowley, Bruce from JAWS, Harry Warden, Ghostface, Michael Myers, Leatherface, Nemesis, Pinhead, Art the Clown, Pennywise, Sadako, Dracula, werewolves, mummies, etc. But also survivor characters inspired by characters like Ash Williams, James Sunderland, Laurie Strode, Chris Redfield, Simon Belmont, the Dream Warriors, and Sidney Prescott Perhaps powerful “final girl” and “final guy” enemies for the villain characters, while more heroic survivor characters will face the playable villains and slashers as stronger enemies and bosses. Levels inspired by iconic horror locations (summer camps, theme parks, abandoned hospitals, college campuses, movie theaters, cabins in the woods, etc.) and power ups named after horror tropes. For example, a brief shield of invincibility called “plot armor”, or a one-time resurrection power for villains called “sequel.” Weapons can include anything from axes, chainsaws, black magic spells, shotguns, demon summoning, summoning zombies, creepy phone calls that make enemies run away, summoning Lovecraftian monster tentacles, etc.
Bullet heaven is elegant and immediately understandable. Rogue-like, lite, whatever is confusing. The genre is big enough now that it should have its own tag
rogue-like/lite is one of what I consider super-genres like puzzle games or action games it tells you something, but it's just too broad at this point to be meaningful by itself.
"Genres don't exist - everything is PONG"
😅😅😅 0:20
I like the amount an consistency of updates for bullet heavens. I’ve been playing Boneraiser Minions a lot recently and it has weekly major updates every Monday often adding new classes and minions and traps to mess with so whenever I play there is usually new content to try.
Now that you mentioned "turn based" I'll try to bring light on a game I found during this steam next: chess survivors. It's a quick turn (think crypt of the necrodancer) where your enemies are chess pieces and use those patterns to attack and move.
I already mentioned it on a comment in another video, but it's such a neat idea that could work really well and I'd be sad if it never came to be.
It's a neat idea and I'm incredibly trash at it. Like, so bad that I deleted my footage in shame.
oh hey, i actually watched the Dev a lot on twitch. i recommended him the spawning algorithm.
@@WanderbotPrime
Your trash level is other's peak performance.
Could be a good learning experience for everyone involved?
Series where the creator dumps can be fun when the haters are rooted out, but probably detrimental to the channel.
If only there was an easy way to show off those poor performances without it tanking the channel.
I'd like to get involved, but your godlike series actually leaves me no other choice than reducing my viewing to a podcast level.
Other than fawning over your performance, I can't contribute in any way.
Thanks for recommending my game! Cheers :)
I don't know how I hadn't drawn the mental throughline of Flash games, and this new wave of low budget + low price games!??
That's like... supposed to be my whole thing! I suddenly better understand what has drawn me most to this side of the indie sphere. You don't flick on a video talking about game genres, and expect to learn something about yourself ;)
Great work!
I'll feel bad for Matt Roszak. But maybe it really is the best title for the genre?
Thanks for the shout out! Cool video!
As a person who lectures on games and serious games. I fully agree. Simple, short intuitive and most importantly communicates the necessary information. It's also just too catchy not to stick.
Hearing this video makes me want to make a bullet heaven!
Looks relatively simple to make, if you get a few graphic bundles.
Though iterating on it will probably be the most difficult part of it, mmmh...
Been waiting for this video for a while and I am glad you made it. I think Bullet Heaven works because it echoes another genre instead of another game ( the [Any game]-like is valid naming convention, for different cases like hommage or parodies imho) and with the mental image of bullet hell in mind, flipping it over by saying bullet heaven gives a fairly accurate sentiment of what the game is like and the intended experience. The genre is so fertile with great ideas and I'm hoping for more innovation within it so giving it a banner to rally toward will indeed help both games and gamers get their bearing in this ever expanding and densifying environment.
Thank you for the time and effort for this video and your absolute amazing dedication to this genre and so many other incredible games you help put into the light.
i love the 6 minutes on why they are compelling when the answer is so simple, BEEEG NUMBERS, and explosions dont forget those lol, great video man
I personally prefer bullet heaven it just sounds the best 👌
So a friend introduced this video to me(and the genre name Bullet Heaven) because I wanted to make a Bullet Heaven game for my friends. The Power Fantasy aspect of Bullet Heavens is really appealing after all.
This has been such a great dive into the genre and I hope that after playing a few more games of Bullet Heavens, I can make something truly unique for me and my friends' enjoyment.
My favorite quote from you is now "Genres don't exist, everything is pong."
:D
Genres don't exist, everything is *pog*
Finally got aroudn to watching this
1. I really enjoyed it and agree with the points you made!
2. It's really nice to hear about Bullet Heaven (the duology of games) and EBF series as none of my friends ever heard of them. I played through all 5, 3 rekindled a love of jrpgs that was slowly fading during the middleschool and high school days, and it was a flash game!
I actually recently convinced my friend to make the fights in his rpg game that he wants to make bullet heaven fights.
Every UA-camr I watch either says bullet heaven or horde-survival.
I swear I know a bullet-heaven-like from the 2000-2010 era where you played some kind of anime girl with a bow, and each of your attack would stagger your enemies backwards, and if those staggered enemies hit other enemies they'd stagger as well, creating these huge waves of combo's of dying enemies.
Of course, this was all over a decade before the genre was as much as defined.
"Bullet Heaven" might be a tough sell, now that someone has Cohh calling them " roguelike autobattlers" :(
That's a horrible option, since Despot's Game, Dungeon Beneath, Automon & Astronarch are all proper roguelike autobattlers.
@@WanderbotPrime wholeheartedly agree. But that's what someone told him the genre for Soulstone Survivors et al was called, sooooo
@@DocHogan idc what anyone else is calling it, for me its Bullet Heaven since the name came up and it will continue to be.
19:46 "You can stop whenever you want" -- Yeah. Uh-huh. Totally.
Great video!
Isaac is Isaac, isaacing the isaacs out of all other isaacs available in the Steam Isaac.
I feel like this video really needs some quiet subtle bg music. The just talking makes any of the empty spots or pauses, disruptingly noticeable.
Noted!
@@WanderbotPrime otherwise it was a pretty great video imo
oh! maybe it could have a well timed musical swell for dramatic effect. Someone call Hans Zimmer!
Just use the soundtrack from Spellbook Survivors. Its...ummm....yeah, it's super chill. Like the voices Enya hears when she's self- medicating, or something. Gospel truth.
Probably my #1 game tracks of the year, tbh
I love this! Your voice is great for video essays btw
Thanks!
so totally agree about the love of flash games and how this scratches that itch. there is so many places this can go
Bullet heaven is extremely fitting, simple, and memorable, hope people start using the term more and that it actually becomes a proper name for the genre.
I love your vids on this channel, the essay style of videos suits you, and i love to just listen to these in the background while i draw or just oogle over your artstyle!
Wish ya luck with everything going on right now too, hopefully things settle down soon!~
I was honestly boggled that Bullet Heaven wasn't an industry term after watching a few vids on your main channel, it just fits that well.
Also, Yeah, I feel the backlog pain.
Regarding flash games, a co-worker of mine got a write-up because he was so addicted to a early 2D tower defense flash game that he was letting the ammo inventory schedule slip lol. He'd play it for hours. We almost had to ban him from the pc.
you mentioned dynasty warriors having the inkling of bullet heaven and I'm just like....
I want that. Some of the Empires games have felt mildly roguelike but man....
Bullet heaven Dynasty warriors I could probably play forever, heh.
Thank you for reviewing easy-to-jump-into games like this. It satisfies my NES and SNES cravings from years gone by. Though I have games that require loading screens and are rather in-depth, sometimes I just want a game that is easy and fun to get into.
I wish we push this genre into existence. There's still no bullet heaven genre on steam yet.
Is there a way to do that? Like if enough people label these games as Bullet Heavens will Steam go and see them as that as well?
This video was 100% worth the wait! I never considered comparing bullet heavens to horde killers like dynasty warriors
Crema just announced what looks like a bullet heaven in temtem's universe... I can't wait to see what it plays like
I feel that "genre" outro - melee, genre, niche, and news have gotten to the point that no matter how I say/spell them they seem wrong lol
Excellent video, thanks Wander!
I've tried many, but just don't quite click with beavens (even shorter!)...But I get the same effect from top down ARPGs and a few roguelikes. Grim Dawn is my fav, if I had to pick...But I like all of them. Even the PtW online only ones that are really getting popular now (I don't pay, I just quit when the grind gets to be too much).
I do wish ARPGs loaded faster and had smaller, more enemy-dense dungeons, though. So I could get a more bite sized chunk.
Army of Ruin was my 1st Bullet Heaven. I absolutely love it and this genre!
I used to play Dynasty Warriors up to the 7th one. You're right. That is damn near a BH game.
Rogue Survivor
That easily applies to Don't Starve and Wayward, so nah.
I'm glad you put the games shown and mentioned on the video in the description.
also great job :^D
I think you and Splattercat were instrumental to popularizing the subgenre so I think you get a little pull on the name of it. I've always thought bullet heaven was an elegant wordplay on bullet hell. I'm a big fan of bullet heavens even though I lack the spacial awareness to be good at bullet hells but I do think there is a significant blurring of the two subgenres, especially as bullet heavens are trying to increase their difficulty now that the audience is getting good at them, to the point that a game could realistically be classified both bullet hell and bullet heaven. I think this is a point in the name's favour though.
Bullet heavens to me are kind of like indie musou games and I enjoy them in much the same way I enjoy a good Dynasty Warriors game. Speaking of, something I find funny is that Koei Tecmo and Team Ninja refer to their souls-like games (e.g. Nioh) as 'masocore' rather than souls-like (soulsbournekiroring-like), despite how similar it is gameplay wise as basically a looter souls-like. I imagine it's because of their history with making hard as nails games like Ninja Gaiden in the pre Demon's Souls era (the dark times).
I like reverse-bullet hell and bullet heaven the most
I can't call it survivors-like either since it's way too vague of a word and people might confuse it for a survival game
I call it before vampire-like.
Honestly, I prefer "Bullet Heaven" personally. It honestly fits very well.
That Lone Ruin game looks amazing visually - probably my favourite graphical style out of all games I've ever played
"Mobile Games > Over Monetized Skinner Boxes" Yup. Name checks out. 😆 More seriously, this was an awesome video and I definitely appreciate the push for better genre naming.
On the topic of requirements, I'd actually argue the short runtimes are one of the core requirements of the genre, up there with hordes of enemies, as longer games tend to drift into other genres. For example, Nova Drift fits most of the requirements, but I'd consider it an Arcade game, more than a bullet heaven, in large part due to its much longer runs.
With that said, a Dynasty Warriors Bullet Heaven would be AMAZING, especially if they kept the flashy combos. I'd be willing to drop a pretty penny on that game.
Eyy, someone spotted that joke.
I’d love to see bullet heavens break the 3D barrier. I think that would draw a huge crowd of people to the genre for more than just the gameplay loop. They’ll come to see crazy visual effects and amazing boss fights. Similar to the jump space shooters made when they went from 2d arcade styles to more modern styles with colorful and bright effects
i've been saying bullet heaven since the moment i learned the bullet hell moniker, like it's obvious it should be named that
Two favorite parts of this video (yes one is in the description of it) "yes I'm gonna credit pong" and "everything is pong"
I like to call em Bitrate evaporator
The dynasty warriors shout out! 😍😍 It kinda is a horde killer indeed, and mastering the simple combos perfectly feels soooooo good
I love this video so much, thanks. I actually create a lot of convenient descriptive language and categories (words, terms, phrases, systems, and frameworks). That I hope will someday be commonly used in global society.
Gonna start calling all games pong-like now
This has probably been said before but you have a gift for making games seem interesting and I fully agree with the name Bullet heaven rather than anything else. Great video dude and I hope you're having a great time doing the projekts that you're passionate about! Stay aweseome dude!
Great research work Wander!
It's a great video explaining a lot about the genre and genre history.
While I don't necessarily agree with everything you said, I'm going to give you the W and also start calling it bullet heaven. Because it's more important to have a way to easily precisely identify them over calling these games by a combination of an insane amount of genres.
Genre? Genre?
The whole Elden Ring is a pong like got me laughing hard, I have to admit.
Overall, another amazing video! Can't wait for the recommendation one.
Really like this video essay, wander, cant wait to see more!
I played a game like this a long time ago, Its the same genre but quite different from most bullet heavens since they mostly just try to mimic vimpire survivors. This game doesnt because it came out in 2017 and it its called magic survival(super creative title I know). the best way I can explain the artsyle is consentrated scribbles and it is amazing.
Since this game is called magic survival all the attacks are magical, but thats not the coolest part. Every time you upgrade an attack enough the final upgrade is a choice between three powerful alternatives. Some might be powerful buffs while others may completely change the attack. One example is the fireball turning into a gas ball and dealing less damage on impact but leaving a residual damage area. Oh, and all the final upgrades visually change the attack as well because the devs are just amazing.
There is also treasure chests with a choice of items you can find that give massive buffs or changes to your build, the enemy is this super cool dark chaotic ooze stuff, and the enemies don't drop xp> you immediatly gain a small amount of xp for killing enemies but thats just a small amount. The real way you get xp is from finding magical orbs that spawn randomly like the chests.
Anyways I just felt I had to tell people about this game because it is super awesome and massively underrated and you should try it if you are interested in these kinds of games.
Calling Novadrift a Bullet Purgatory was 👌
Bullet She'ol
SmashTV-like
Robotron-esque
While I also like the bullet heaven, I am able to use the above examples to better describe these types of games to my own peers.
Which I also agree with the not approval of -like descriptions :)
I've been working on a bullet heaven game of my own as of late, with the main gimmick being that the player and all the enemies are Cars. Just gotta get it on steam, which is taking forever :V
Oh and it's called Angry Angus, because it's funny.
New topic of discussion: Let's start using Neo-Arcade instead of Roguelike.
Similarly, I find a safe place to stand and let my character take care of things as a “Bullet Haven” as opposed to “Heaven”
I thought I was being creative when I named my bullet hell game jam entry, where you play as an angel, "Bullet Heaven", turns out pretty much everyone on the internet already came up with that name and made it a whole genre... xD
Awesome essay, a great description of the genre i've been loving recently!
you should make a short for the first part because it will most likely spread much faster (or tiktok)
10 Bullet Heavens Everybody Should Try when?
I've come back to this, and while I do enjoy the name (which literally sums up what it is, at least in relation to a bullet hell game). on a side note: just as I was about to sleep, I had a thought: "Is Risk of Rain 2 a Bullet Heaven?", it consists of many of the Bullet Heaven elements, only lacking procedural generation, otherwise the runs can go on forever if you want, though some runs are lengthy (30 minutes on average to complete a run), it has some meta progression, I honestly don't know what to think about it.
I think the survival mode kinda works, but the vibe isn't quite there in the same way that Dynasty Warriors gets close, but doesn't actually count.
I think it's largely due to the fact that you don't really change over the course of a RoR2 run. Sure your stats improve, but apart from a few red items/weird builds your core moveset remains unchanged.
That said if it had an upgrade system closer to Brotato or Nova Drift, it could probably work.
@@WanderbotPrime yeah that's a fair comparison for it, so what matters most about a bullet heaven then would be how it's upgrade system functions in comparison to other roguelikes and the such? Other than the core components of a bullet heaven of course.
On second thought: is it that you need to change how you play with upgrades?
I've actually never played a bullet heaven, but as a roguelike/lite simp I'll probably love the genre, LONG LIVE INDIES!
Start with 20 minutes till dawn or Brotato if you do, they're the best of the genre so far.
YES
Bullet Horde Survival it is.
I've been calling the genre Horde Survival
Your comments about meta-progression triggered my class roguelike rant to proc. A classic roguelike has no lasting progression either in runs or between runs, and this is an important characteristic. The reason it's important is instructive for bullet heavens, even though, being action games with meta progression, they're not classic roguelikes.
The meta-progression of Nethack 3.0 or Caves of Qud is all in your head. You learn how to cheese the game, or at least overcome difficult obstacles. There's an end-game boss fight in Nethack. There are tough enemies, but progress isn't skill-gated by having to fight bullet sponges that defy all the rules you've just learned.
Not having meta-progression has another benefit, though. It forces developers to make the game worth replaying just as it is. Nethack and Qud (and Rogue, xarn, Omega, Cataclysim Dark Days Ahead, Tome of Maj-Eyal, etc.) get where they got by being interesting and fun with a variety of different mechanics working together in unique ways that can be endlessly surprising.
I'm not saying BH games shouldn't have meta-progression. What I'm bringing up is that like a classic Roguelike, what makes a standout game is replayability that you'd enjoy even if there was no meta-progression.
Thanks for this presentation
I used to like bullet heavens, but at this point im just sick of them, i want a roguelike that is more like hades or deadcells at this point
I've been wondering if a turn-based Bullet Heaven could work. Or, perhaps, something akin to Superhot. Maybe some powerups that are based on your continuous movement?
IMO if you took the combat system from The Last Spell and gave it a Bullet Heaven-y upgrade system instead (and no town to defend), you'd have a fantastic turn-based Bullet Heaven.
There's already a turn-based bullet hell, so I don't see why you couldn't.
i would use bullet heaven roguelike or lite idfk, to describe the game
As soon as you said bullet heaven in one of your first few videos I agreed fully with the name. And no shadow realm yeeting for you.
Personally I like "Arena Survival", as it's both an accurate summation of the gameplay style and has a light (but not -like or -vania levels of lazy and blatant) reference to the genre founders. And I think it's distinct enough from similar genre labels to be clear. ...But I ain't got no horse in this race, Bullet Heaven works well too.
26:50 actually it's "genre"
It's a bone survivor
Jeanne-rah
Nice
I first heard Bullet Heaven from Splattercat, and he showed Vampire Survivors before it got big. I agree it is a good genre name.
After this video, I still have one question left.
By definition, isn't "The Binding of Isaac" a Bullet Heaven?
Almost, but also not really. Even greed mode has you exiting the room frequently, enemies are complex, and the runs are far too long.
You could totally turn it into a bullet heaven with ease, but at the moment it doesn't count.
Same with nuclear throne.
Under the assumption that time and "room-hopping" are important factors, wouldnt that remove Rogue Genesia and Brotato from Bullet Heaven? Rogue Genesia easily reaches 90min+ runs on its latest World(I am aware that Endless exists). And technically with RG and Brotato you are going from one stage to another, changing Enemies (and distribution of Items, like Crates).
While the current iterations of Bullet Heavens go to around 30 minutes(with exception of RG), I do not think that time nor "rooms" should be important factors of Bullet Heavens, even VS will(in 1.0) include ways to exceed 30 minutes.
As both still yield undiscovered potential even for Bullet Heavens, excluding them from the get go, does not sit right.
In germany Most people say surviver like
Bullet Heaven =/= Twin Stick
It's all very confusing when you put new tags and genres on already well defined games.
I am doing my part to spread this term.
Whrere Bullet-Earth?
Woot
SO true
Still not a fan of the name or description, but props for putting your foot down.
bullet heaven. survivor. auto-attacker..
never had this many solid name choices for a genre before
Honk
Bullet Heavens being generally 20-30minutes per run has been a Godsend. I can fit in a run or two between getting home from work and bedtime
I've been advocating for the name Bullet Heaven since it arised, strongly agree with everything you said, its definitely the name that best encapsulates the genre as a whole.
Man, finally a mention of magic survival. Always bothered me how popular this genre has gotten with basically no mention of a game that basically started the trend
Glad you said this. And credit to Wanderbots for mentioning it. I've wanted to rip my hair out when other content creators compared games like this to Vampire Survivors.
I know, right?
Congratulations on getting the video essay out! It turned out awesome! More please 👍
While many Bullet Heaven game feature metaprogression, Brotato has shown me that the core gameplay experience stays fairly unchanged without it.
I think this analysis is on point.
Thanks for advocating for a distinct name, it brings us closer to getting a fitting tag on steam which would be so important!
"Genres don't exist: everything is Pong"
I think the "problem" with giving a tag / genre to a game can be hard when you get so "deep" in a spin off of a spin off of a genre, roguelikes is a good example, now its just understood as main mechanic and groups multiple idea together, like one life, no progression, hard, tile based and such, I mean yeah, we could create a new name for the category, but I think its get harder and harder, and then we get rogue lite being a spin off of rogue like. I mean, Battle Royale is just a sub category on how to play a game, its just a game but only one mode, instead of having like a game such as Quake 3 and having several mode to play, instagib, rockets only, etc etc..
BR is a sub category or mode of playing and dont consider it a "genre" in itself IMO
I guess since indie made developing sub-sub genre and category, its hard to categorize a game unless you just describe the mechanic of the game itself, "twin stick shooter, bullet hell, tile base, meta progression, one life"
So I dont know how we will rename or not roguelikes
This is top-notch analysis. Flash games are an interesting connection. I wonder if something like Amorphous Plus from back in the day could be considered a forerunner to the genre. It had many of the same features but lacked progression and the sheer number of enemies in waves so the gameplay was based more on skill and luck with the RNG since the slimes could create environmental interactions with each other
I just added "Bullet Heaven" as a tag on Steam to some of these games. Do the same!
WOW did not expect to see Magic Survival here. i played that game for a week a while ago (definitely before vampire survivor came out) when it was quite new itself and thought it was neat. but because its a mobile game i didn't really take it serious and thought of a it as just a school project game that the student decided to developed and release (having studied game design myself i had seen similar projects before). now i found it again while looking into this new genre that popped up.
to realise that i played the "first" game in a genre when it came out is quite exciting
I have had that game for literally years on my various phones but always forgot about it existence but played again and a syou said it's wild that it was one of, if not technically the first bullet heaven.
16:20 I have about 40 ish games on Steam and 167 games on Gog. I also have about 75 games on my GOG wishlist and about 175 games on my Steam wishlist. I try to buy "established" games on Gog that won't get updated often or don't need mods/online support for the whole DRM thing. I have literally wondered why I never wishlisted a game, only to realize that it's already in my library.
And what I normally end up playing day in and out is Rimworld. I keep telling myself when I get a new PC I will play the newer games i have been waiting for. But the fridge died, the house needs painting...
I have this idea of a slasher and horror movie inspired bullet Heaven game. Characters inspired by the likes of Jason, Freddy, Pinhead, Patrick Bateman, Victor Crowley, Bruce from JAWS, Harry Warden, Ghostface, Michael Myers, Leatherface, Nemesis, Pinhead, Art the Clown, Pennywise, Sadako, Dracula, werewolves, mummies, etc.
But also survivor characters inspired by characters like Ash Williams, James Sunderland, Laurie Strode, Chris Redfield, Simon Belmont, the Dream Warriors, and Sidney Prescott
Perhaps powerful “final girl” and “final guy” enemies for the villain characters, while more heroic survivor characters will face the playable villains and slashers as stronger enemies and bosses.
Levels inspired by iconic horror locations (summer camps, theme parks, abandoned hospitals, college campuses, movie theaters, cabins in the woods, etc.) and power ups named after horror tropes. For example, a brief shield of invincibility called “plot armor”, or a one-time resurrection power for villains called “sequel.”
Weapons can include anything from axes, chainsaws, black magic spells, shotguns, demon summoning, summoning zombies, creepy phone calls that make enemies run away, summoning Lovecraftian monster tentacles, etc.