Nice video! I had no idea there were so many bullet-heavens, I've only played Vampire Survivors and Halls of Torment, currently working on my first game inspired by those two so this video was very informative - Thanks! 😎
Glad you enjoyed the video! I have only barely played SAP myself, but I have considered maybe diving into it some more sometime. You play it quite a bit? And it was nice making a video showcasing some of my thoughts, definitely considering making another like this at some point. Thanks for watching!
@@LukusWho I appreciate the kind words, my friend! I am always looking for more content to watch myself, so I look forward to checking out your videos as well! :)
I appreciate the kind words, my friend! I spent a lot of time and effort crafting this video, so I am glad you found some value in it. I wish you luck in both your college career and your game development venture. Thanks for watching!
Loved the video!! Glad I can finally get back into catching up on your content! I wanted to mention that when talking about level design I feel like Deep Rock Galatic: Survivor makes it interesting by incorporating the mining aspect. Since it allows you to breakdown the walls, which can often give you resources, I think that is a unique take on level design from what I know of these types of games. I was always thinking, in terms of the XP pickup, I almost wonder if there would be a way to receive XP for every kill, but maybe a smaller amount, and then also have XP drops. So getting kills still allows you to level up, but if you want to level up faster, you can continue picking up gems, or weird little circle things (that part made me laugh.) Overall, it's clear that for a genre that feels simplistic in a way, there is obviously a lot that goes in to making the games feel unique! Thanks for giving us some insight into what that looks like! I'd be interested to see more of this type of video. I was thinking maybe something along the lines of "What makes a Roguelite good?" :) Either way, I'll be following along to see what else you come up with!
Glad you got some enjoyment out of the video! It definitely took quite a bit of time and effort, but I thought it came out rather well. I think the mining mechanic in DRGS is a nice touch, in allowing you to create escape routes, even though it does not always work out seamlessly like that. I certainly am interested to see if anyone implements a new take on the XP drop system. I think what you said could potentially work, but it would take some balance to see what would be most effective. If I end up making another video like this, I am unsure what the direction would be. Definitely would need to be something that I have had a good deal of experience with. Thanks for adding some thoughts here, and thanks for watching!
Excellent video! I have a few thoughts: Regarding the XP "pickup" trend, I think it is done well in a few of these games, but it feels like in a lot of them it is only there because.. Vampire Survivors did it. I would not be opposed to a more streamlined systems, such as: Kill enemy, gain XP. That's it! Revolutionary, I know. Any devs reading this comment feel free to send me my royalties :) Run length has always been a turn-off for me in games like these. Especially in games with little to no enemy variety the 20-30 min timer just feels like an artificial way to increase my playtime. I would like to see more of these games have shorter 15ish min runs! I had a few more things I wanted to add, but I forgot.. Whoops! Regardless, loved the video, keep up the amazing content!
I appreciate the thoughts! I completely agree that Vampire Survivors gave a lot of these games their inspiration, so it feels like a significant reason for it. And I REALLY want some of these games to lean into shorter runs, because, as you say, it feels like an artificial way to increase playtime without adding a lot more substance/variety to your runs. Will definitely be interested to see what new games in this genre produce, and I am sure I will continue playing many of these. Thanks for watching!
Awesome and informative video, Penguin!! Has a lot of valuable insights especially the part about dodging projectiles. I will be taking notes. Thank you so much for this Penguin (and also for including Roguenarok to the video 😄)!!!
I appreciate you taking the time out to watch it! I am always playing so many of these games, that I cannot help but develop a ton of thoughts on the subject. If you ever need someone to bounce ideas off of for Roguenarok, let me know! I am glad to be able to mention it briefly in the video, and am excited to see what its official release version looks like! Thanks for watching :)
love your thoughts and insights on the bullet heaven genre!! you were able to show the uniqueness of each game you show cased even though they are all bullet heaven, it would be great to hear your other thoughts and opinion on different genres like JRPGs and Tower defense games! keep up the good work!!
For me these are the most important factors: - Game design (Simplicity, easy to view, good colors, compactness, easy to read, easy to focus what you're looking on the screen) - Progression (A non linear progression where player can choice what to upgrade or do next while getting even more powerful) - Giving the player options but varied options like you can choose a trashy weapon that is useless in early but powerful when fully upgrade or a good weapons from the start that don't get too much damage scale but descent for the whole run - Good music makes every game outstanding and enjoyable, gives a completely different mood to each game - The last point is... Give the player stimulation could be in-game events, flashy images, rewards, easter eggs that have impressive rewards, funny hidden spots, etc.
In regards to the level up system. I think collecting gem thingies is not perfect but good. It keeps the player from staying in one place their entire run. It makes the player consider their path strategy (is the build vertical or horizontal oriented? Is the build designed to chip away health large areas or focus at a single enemy at a time?), and it makes them consider leveling up movement options. I think a good alternative would be sacrificing a portion of their health or maybe giving up a perk to auto collect all gems dropped on the map. That way it makes the player make more on-the-spot decisions. Might be a horrible idea who knows?
I always appreciate the input! I think the best part of the system is that it kind of gives the players a sense of purpose in their movements, much like you said. Without it, you would wander aimlessly, or not move at all, which some games like Brotato and Bounty of One execute into their gameplay. I know there are some games that use health as a form of resource, and that could be an intriguing option here. My biggest complaint about it is just that it becomes much harder to collect once the map is covered in enemies, especially when they are not extremely weak ones, and some builds just end up not being very strong, which can of course be on the player, but it makes that run start to feel like a wash early on when leveling up becomes much tougher. Thanks for watching!
8:16 - in HoloCure collab system doesn't work with regular logic. Game made by fan for fans. Why Axe can collab with Lava Bucket and transforms into Comet? Only fans know that Axe represents Siusei and Bucket represents Miko, their collab refers to real partnership between them called MiComet. Or why Plug tail + Beam is a Dragon Fire? But thanks to that result unpredictable. Every weapon has 2-3 collaborations, you never know what to expect. 10:24 - in HoloCure 4 metaprogression systems. Unlockables through completing achievments, classic VS stat ups, character dublicates in gacha and Fandom progression for getting starting bonuses. 13:06 - there around 36 characters, everyone has unique weapon with its Awakened form, 1 Special attack and 3 passive skills synergises with each other and helps to create best build. Fubuki for example dealing damage agter getting damage based on her speed, Roboco doing great damage during level up moment and her skills giving her bonus exp, Ollie as proper zombie getting invincibility and atk bonus when reaching 0 HP, Kaela mining during stage run and getting stat ups for gem stacks, etc 19:13 - in last big update In Holocure appeared "fans." They waving glowsticks and based on its light healing/buffing enemies or debuffing us. And sometimes there 2 of them, healing boss and slow down you...
I actually have not played HoloCure, although I have heard good things about it. Sounds like it incorporates a good amount of content variety and progression to make the runs feel unique and worthwhile. Thank you for sharing your insights, and thanks for watching!
Bullet Heaven. Huh. Why didn't I think of that? Better of a name for a genre than survivor-like. But it sometimes overlaps with twin stick shooters. The first came to mind is Alien Shooter by Sigma Team Inc. Without the roguelite aspect.
I absolutely love metaprogression. Especially if it’s a skill tree. To me the game needs to be beatable with just skill alone, but if I get the choice to turn on meta progression, slowly unlocking better and better skills, that makes a game so much more fun to me. It gives a permanent rewarding feeling to me. But I think you always need to be able to turn it off for free and have things still be possible. That way people who don’t like meta progression don’t feel the downsides of the metaprogression and those like me that adore it can have their fun getting overpowered without needing to focus as hard
Yeah, I know what you mean. Metaprogression is such a divide for lovers of video games, especially indie roguelikes/lites, because when it is done well and offers up unique experiences, it adds so much replayability. And I agree that games should technically be beatable in the first run, even if it is not super likely, it should still be possible. If winning AND fun are locked behind metaprogression, that is not ideal in my eyes. And do not even get me started on games that force you to lose runs to progress the story, LOL. Thanks for the comments, and thanks for watching!
I think the run length aspect is both subjective and game-based. For example, in games where you can only get a finite number of upgrades or items (VS and Halls of Torment for example), I like runs to last 2-5 minutes more than the time it takes a decent/good run to close up a build, so that the run doesn't end right after I close it without giving me the time to see it in action or even worse if it finishes when I'm one or two upgrades off, but having it take like 10+ minutes from full build makes it so you appreciate your work for a few minutes and then you can just go afk for 10 minutes and have time to get bored. Instead, in games with unlimited upgrades, I think 20 Minutes and Soulstone Survivors do it best. One of them because it gives you enough time to reasonably get most of the upgrades related to a given play style (summons, elemental, big bullets or whatever else) and play around with it a few minutes during the hardest waves, and the other because it gives you time to reasonably close out a good build before the end so you can be satisfied by that part of the game and exit and then gives you the 2 endless options, one with normal scaling where you can aim for an ultra specific build with enemies that scale normally and the other that basically becomes a boss rush where you can test the really OP builds against more and more frequent/numerous bosses.
I respect and appreciate the analysis. So would you say that Vampire Survivors/Halls of Torment are currently a good length, or too long? I personally think they are a bit too long, but it could be preference. And I think you're right that 20 minutes is a good length for 20 Minutes Till Dawn, although I still find myself enjoying the 10 minute mode as well. Soulstone Survivors, I still feel it can definitely pan out where you are just chipping away at bosses for a while, unless you end up with a strong enough build, and while I do agree that is partial on the player for not crafting a strong enough combination, I also think it just kind of falls into place that way sometimes, and those runs can feel a bit long, but as a whole, I do enjoy most aspects of Soulstone Survivors quite a bit. Thank you for engaging in discourse, and thanks for watching!
@@Penguin_Sal It's definitely worse when you end up with a bad build because most of the genre offers little more than optimized circle strafing in terms of mechanical skill expression so salvaging a bad run is pretty much waiting for the right upgrade or giving up and restarting when the inevitable happens. It doesn't hit me all that much because when I play run-based games I tend to only stick with interesting runs anyways but I can definitely see it negatively impacting people that take all of them to the end. Vampire Survivors run length depends on the build I'm doing, if I'm running the birds and the guns there's barely enough time to finish my build while if I'm not running either of those it could be 5 minutes shorter to be perfect for me. As for Halls of Torment my only problem is the final boss being way too tanky, because I have a lot of fun during the last waves even if I'm not upgrading anything because the variety of different behaviours the different mob types have make them very dynamic and intense. Also, I should have said this at the beginning but I'm far from the average player when it comes to play patterns in this kind of power fantasy games, I have like 5k hours in Path of Exile and mindless grinding is almost therapeutic to me, to the point where I've spent hundreds of hours in it just grinding away with a completed build multiple times, which is pretty much the equivalent of playing the last 5 minutes of bullet heaven games with the addition of dropping currency to build future characters.
@@Dan77111 I think that is fair, that the run type definitely matters, and certain builds can take longer to piece together. And it is funny to me that so many of these games prioritize killing weak mobs of enemies for the majority of it, and then include a tanky boss at the end that essentially counteracts the playstyle of the rest of the game leading up to it. I wonder if there would be a better way to make a boss feel like a mob fight still. Makes me think of the Rat King boss in Snake Farm, that is essentially 100 Rat Snakes making up a boss. Kind of allows you to keep playing to your strengths, if the strength is killing a larger quantity, as opposed to a single enemy with a large amount of health. Also, this is tertiary, but it makes me think of the optimal team builds in Diablo 3 runs, as some players would be crafted to handle the large waves of weaker enemies, and other players would be centered around doing significant damage to a single target, so they paired up well to handle both aspects of the game, but bullet heavens do not exactly line themselves up to do this same thing. And wow, 5k hours is quite the feat! I do not think I am anywhere close to that in a single game, but I do think that is useful information when understanding how you approach these games, as opposed to someone who will likely commit far less hours. Thanks for sharing!
I appreciate you taking the time to check this out! I did put a lot of effort into the video, so I always enjoy people watching this one. I certainly am no expert when it comes to game theory or design, but I think I have played enough to have some thoughts, and I always stick to honesty, both good and bad, so hopefully you could get something out of this. Thanks for watching!
Thank you, my friend! I am glad you enjoyed it! And here is a list of every game mentioned in this video, and there are links for each in the video description! (I may forget one or two, LOL): Vampire Survivors, Brotato, Halls of Torment, Soulstone Survivors, God Of Weapons, Boneraiser Minions, Bio Prototype, Bounty of One, Spellbook Demonslayers, Snake Farm, Goobies, SNKRX, 20 Minutes Till Dawn, Disfigure, BloodDome Classic, Nomad Survival, Void Survivors, Super Kill-BOI 9000, as well as demos for: Froguelike, Deep Rock Galactic Survivors, Cursorblade, Roguenarok, Happy hunting and thanks for watching!
It’s August of 2024 and so meny of these games are getting removed from steam normally for developers violations but I’ve not been able to find out what these violations are? Did they steal art or IP’s kinda like what palworld was accused of?
I'm a newbie indie game dev with data analysis background. Do you think this genre is still worth trying if I make my first game? It seems to me that the genre is very saturated, lots of game feel like a copy-cat of Vampire survivor/Brotato/20 mins till dawn mostly because they don't have creative mechanic or suffer from grinding, boring meta-progression system
The more I play them, the more they start to feel like that to me too, honestly. I think there are some that bring a bit of thunder to the table, but like 85% are too dang similar. Thanks for watching!
There are definitely a lot, but if you are a fan of the genre, there are some really good ones out there, and I am sure some of the many that continue to be released will also be quite good. It does beg the question though of how long this saga will go on for, and when it has eventually died out (which I believe it will), what comes next? Thanks for watching!
Hello- game dev here. I think the best part about wave-survival games is that they can generally be duck-taped into other genres really easily. For example, If you create a roguelike, it’s really easy to create a wave-survival mode ON TOP of your existing infrastructure. Obviously it will still take effort; but it’s much easier to create
@@user-ob5hj5vn8c You can also duct tape a food and health survival mechanics into any other genre really easily. This doesn't make it a good idea. Unless you have unlimited budged and development time, less is more.
@TourFaint hmm, I see your point, but I also think that general roguelikes and wave-survival likes share many common systems. For example: - permadeath - item/stat progression - killing of enemies - creating fun builds - Rerolling / build-crafting / synergies My main point is that they share very much common systems, so if you can engineer your code such that your game "could" support both styles, then I would say it's a decent idea. As a dev, I honestly believe that it wouldn't be hard to reuse systems between these two modes.
Nice video! I had no idea there were so many bullet-heavens, I've only played Vampire Survivors and Halls of Torment, currently working on my first game inspired by those two so this video was very informative - Thanks! 😎
Same
Such a true video! I do love me some roguelike game when I'm not playing sap. Nice to see other youtubers with the same perspectives
Glad you enjoyed the video! I have only barely played SAP myself, but I have considered maybe diving into it some more sometime. You play it quite a bit? And it was nice making a video showcasing some of my thoughts, definitely considering making another like this at some point. Thanks for watching!
Always good finding new fellow youtubers, keep up the great videos@@Penguin_Sal
@@LukusWho I appreciate the kind words, my friend! I am always looking for more content to watch myself, so I look forward to checking out your videos as well! :)
Hello! This is such an amazing video. As a computer-science grad who is spending this summer creating a game project, this is awesome content. Thanks!
I appreciate the kind words, my friend! I spent a lot of time and effort crafting this video, so I am glad you found some value in it. I wish you luck in both your college career and your game development venture. Thanks for watching!
Loved the video!! Glad I can finally get back into catching up on your content!
I wanted to mention that when talking about level design I feel like Deep Rock Galatic: Survivor makes it interesting by incorporating the mining aspect. Since it allows you to breakdown the walls, which can often give you resources, I think that is a unique take on level design from what I know of these types of games.
I was always thinking, in terms of the XP pickup, I almost wonder if there would be a way to receive XP for every kill, but maybe a smaller amount, and then also have XP drops. So getting kills still allows you to level up, but if you want to level up faster, you can continue picking up gems, or weird little circle things (that part made me laugh.)
Overall, it's clear that for a genre that feels simplistic in a way, there is obviously a lot that goes in to making the games feel unique! Thanks for giving us some insight into what that looks like!
I'd be interested to see more of this type of video. I was thinking maybe something along the lines of "What makes a Roguelite good?" :)
Either way, I'll be following along to see what else you come up with!
Glad you got some enjoyment out of the video! It definitely took quite a bit of time and effort, but I thought it came out rather well.
I think the mining mechanic in DRGS is a nice touch, in allowing you to create escape routes, even though it does not always work out seamlessly like that.
I certainly am interested to see if anyone implements a new take on the XP drop system. I think what you said could potentially work, but it would take some balance to see what would be most effective.
If I end up making another video like this, I am unsure what the direction would be. Definitely would need to be something that I have had a good deal of experience with.
Thanks for adding some thoughts here, and thanks for watching!
Excellent video! I have a few thoughts:
Regarding the XP "pickup" trend, I think it is done well in a few of these games, but it feels like in a lot of them it is only there because.. Vampire Survivors did it. I would not be opposed to a more streamlined systems, such as: Kill enemy, gain XP. That's it! Revolutionary, I know. Any devs reading this comment feel free to send me my royalties :)
Run length has always been a turn-off for me in games like these. Especially in games with little to no enemy variety the 20-30 min timer just feels like an artificial way to increase my playtime. I would like to see more of these games have shorter 15ish min runs!
I had a few more things I wanted to add, but I forgot.. Whoops! Regardless, loved the video, keep up the amazing content!
I appreciate the thoughts! I completely agree that Vampire Survivors gave a lot of these games their inspiration, so it feels like a significant reason for it. And I REALLY want some of these games to lean into shorter runs, because, as you say, it feels like an artificial way to increase playtime without adding a lot more substance/variety to your runs. Will definitely be interested to see what new games in this genre produce, and I am sure I will continue playing many of these. Thanks for watching!
I made it before "vampires" in my game "zomoby" (you can find it on youtube). Collectable loot is satisfying, this is why it is good mechanic.
@@Penguin_Sal magic survival the game that vampire survivors take inspiration from have you kill to gain xp
Awesome and informative video, Penguin!! Has a lot of valuable insights especially the part about dodging projectiles. I will be taking notes. Thank you so much for this Penguin (and also for including Roguenarok to the video 😄)!!!
I appreciate you taking the time out to watch it! I am always playing so many of these games, that I cannot help but develop a ton of thoughts on the subject. If you ever need someone to bounce ideas off of for Roguenarok, let me know! I am glad to be able to mention it briefly in the video, and am excited to see what its official release version looks like! Thanks for watching :)
That's awesome! That would be an honor, I would very much love to!! Thaank you so much, Penguin!! I appreciate it!! 😄
love your thoughts and insights on the bullet heaven genre!! you were able to show the uniqueness of each game you show cased even though they are all bullet heaven, it would be great to hear your other thoughts and opinion on different genres like JRPGs and Tower defense games! keep up the good work!!
For me these are the most important factors:
- Game design (Simplicity, easy to view, good colors, compactness, easy to read, easy to focus what you're looking on the screen)
- Progression (A non linear progression where player can choice what to upgrade or do next while getting even more powerful)
- Giving the player options but varied options like you can choose a trashy weapon that is useless in early but powerful when fully upgrade or a good weapons from the start that don't get too much damage scale but descent for the whole run
- Good music makes every game outstanding and enjoyable, gives a completely different mood to each game
- The last point is... Give the player stimulation could be in-game events, flashy images, rewards, easter eggs that have impressive rewards, funny hidden spots, etc.
I forgot Vampire Survivors had characters who weren’t the old man with the garlic.
In regards to the level up system. I think collecting gem thingies is not perfect but good. It keeps the player from staying in one place their entire run. It makes the player consider their path strategy (is the build vertical or horizontal oriented? Is the build designed to chip away health large areas or focus at a single enemy at a time?), and it makes them consider leveling up movement options.
I think a good alternative would be sacrificing a portion of their health or maybe giving up a perk to auto collect all gems dropped on the map. That way it makes the player make more on-the-spot decisions. Might be a horrible idea who knows?
I always appreciate the input! I think the best part of the system is that it kind of gives the players a sense of purpose in their movements, much like you said. Without it, you would wander aimlessly, or not move at all, which some games like Brotato and Bounty of One execute into their gameplay. I know there are some games that use health as a form of resource, and that could be an intriguing option here. My biggest complaint about it is just that it becomes much harder to collect once the map is covered in enemies, especially when they are not extremely weak ones, and some builds just end up not being very strong, which can of course be on the player, but it makes that run start to feel like a wash early on when leveling up becomes much tougher. Thanks for watching!
great video. thanks!🍸
8:16 - in HoloCure collab system doesn't work with regular logic. Game made by fan for fans. Why Axe can collab with Lava Bucket and transforms into Comet? Only fans know that Axe represents Siusei and Bucket represents Miko, their collab refers to real partnership between them called MiComet. Or why Plug tail + Beam is a Dragon Fire? But thanks to that result unpredictable. Every weapon has 2-3 collaborations, you never know what to expect.
10:24 - in HoloCure 4 metaprogression systems. Unlockables through completing achievments, classic VS stat ups, character dublicates in gacha and Fandom progression for getting starting bonuses.
13:06 - there around 36 characters, everyone has unique weapon with its Awakened form, 1 Special attack and 3 passive skills synergises with each other and helps to create best build. Fubuki for example dealing damage agter getting damage based on her speed, Roboco doing great damage during level up moment and her skills giving her bonus exp, Ollie as proper zombie getting invincibility and atk bonus when reaching 0 HP, Kaela mining during stage run and getting stat ups for gem stacks, etc
19:13 - in last big update In Holocure appeared "fans." They waving glowsticks and based on its light healing/buffing enemies or debuffing us. And sometimes there 2 of them, healing boss and slow down you...
I actually have not played HoloCure, although I have heard good things about it. Sounds like it incorporates a good amount of content variety and progression to make the runs feel unique and worthwhile. Thank you for sharing your insights, and thanks for watching!
@@Penguin_Sal , all I can say, try it out. It's free. Pure passion project
Bullet Heaven. Huh. Why didn't I think of that? Better of a name for a genre than survivor-like. But it sometimes overlaps with twin stick shooters. The first came to mind is Alien Shooter by Sigma Team Inc. Without the roguelite aspect.
I absolutely love metaprogression. Especially if it’s a skill tree. To me the game needs to be beatable with just skill alone, but if I get the choice to turn on meta progression, slowly unlocking better and better skills, that makes a game so much more fun to me. It gives a permanent rewarding feeling to me. But I think you always need to be able to turn it off for free and have things still be possible. That way people who don’t like meta progression don’t feel the downsides of the metaprogression and those like me that adore it can have their fun getting overpowered without needing to focus as hard
Yeah, I know what you mean. Metaprogression is such a divide for lovers of video games, especially indie roguelikes/lites, because when it is done well and offers up unique experiences, it adds so much replayability. And I agree that games should technically be beatable in the first run, even if it is not super likely, it should still be possible. If winning AND fun are locked behind metaprogression, that is not ideal in my eyes. And do not even get me started on games that force you to lose runs to progress the story, LOL. Thanks for the comments, and thanks for watching!
I think the run length aspect is both subjective and game-based.
For example, in games where you can only get a finite number of upgrades or items (VS and Halls of Torment for example), I like runs to last 2-5 minutes more than the time it takes a decent/good run to close up a build, so that the run doesn't end right after I close it without giving me the time to see it in action or even worse if it finishes when I'm one or two upgrades off, but having it take like 10+ minutes from full build makes it so you appreciate your work for a few minutes and then you can just go afk for 10 minutes and have time to get bored.
Instead, in games with unlimited upgrades, I think 20 Minutes and Soulstone Survivors do it best. One of them because it gives you enough time to reasonably get most of the upgrades related to a given play style (summons, elemental, big bullets or whatever else) and play around with it a few minutes during the hardest waves, and the other because it gives you time to reasonably close out a good build before the end so you can be satisfied by that part of the game and exit and then gives you the 2 endless options, one with normal scaling where you can aim for an ultra specific build with enemies that scale normally and the other that basically becomes a boss rush where you can test the really OP builds against more and more frequent/numerous bosses.
I respect and appreciate the analysis. So would you say that Vampire Survivors/Halls of Torment are currently a good length, or too long? I personally think they are a bit too long, but it could be preference. And I think you're right that 20 minutes is a good length for 20 Minutes Till Dawn, although I still find myself enjoying the 10 minute mode as well. Soulstone Survivors, I still feel it can definitely pan out where you are just chipping away at bosses for a while, unless you end up with a strong enough build, and while I do agree that is partial on the player for not crafting a strong enough combination, I also think it just kind of falls into place that way sometimes, and those runs can feel a bit long, but as a whole, I do enjoy most aspects of Soulstone Survivors quite a bit. Thank you for engaging in discourse, and thanks for watching!
@@Penguin_Sal It's definitely worse when you end up with a bad build because most of the genre offers little more than optimized circle strafing in terms of mechanical skill expression so salvaging a bad run is pretty much waiting for the right upgrade or giving up and restarting when the inevitable happens. It doesn't hit me all that much because when I play run-based games I tend to only stick with interesting runs anyways but I can definitely see it negatively impacting people that take all of them to the end.
Vampire Survivors run length depends on the build I'm doing, if I'm running the birds and the guns there's barely enough time to finish my build while if I'm not running either of those it could be 5 minutes shorter to be perfect for me.
As for Halls of Torment my only problem is the final boss being way too tanky, because I have a lot of fun during the last waves even if I'm not upgrading anything because the variety of different behaviours the different mob types have make them very dynamic and intense.
Also, I should have said this at the beginning but I'm far from the average player when it comes to play patterns in this kind of power fantasy games, I have like 5k hours in Path of Exile and mindless grinding is almost therapeutic to me, to the point where I've spent hundreds of hours in it just grinding away with a completed build multiple times, which is pretty much the equivalent of playing the last 5 minutes of bullet heaven games with the addition of dropping currency to build future characters.
@@Dan77111 I think that is fair, that the run type definitely matters, and certain builds can take longer to piece together. And it is funny to me that so many of these games prioritize killing weak mobs of enemies for the majority of it, and then include a tanky boss at the end that essentially counteracts the playstyle of the rest of the game leading up to it. I wonder if there would be a better way to make a boss feel like a mob fight still. Makes me think of the Rat King boss in Snake Farm, that is essentially 100 Rat Snakes making up a boss. Kind of allows you to keep playing to your strengths, if the strength is killing a larger quantity, as opposed to a single enemy with a large amount of health. Also, this is tertiary, but it makes me think of the optimal team builds in Diablo 3 runs, as some players would be crafted to handle the large waves of weaker enemies, and other players would be centered around doing significant damage to a single target, so they paired up well to handle both aspects of the game, but bullet heavens do not exactly line themselves up to do this same thing. And wow, 5k hours is quite the feat! I do not think I am anywhere close to that in a single game, but I do think that is useful information when understanding how you approach these games, as opposed to someone who will likely commit far less hours. Thanks for sharing!
I'm about to make one with a genre that's not been done before :D putting all my money in.
Interesting dive into a Genre I know little/nothing about.
I appreciate you taking the time to check this out! I did put a lot of effort into the video, so I always enjoy people watching this one. I certainly am no expert when it comes to game theory or design, but I think I have played enough to have some thoughts, and I always stick to honesty, both good and bad, so hopefully you could get something out of this. Thanks for watching!
This was an awesome video on Bullet Heavens.
Now I need to know all these because I do not have a lot of these... Yet I own near 50 😂😂
Thank you, my friend! I am glad you enjoyed it! And here is a list of every game mentioned in this video, and there are links for each in the video description! (I may forget one or two, LOL):
Vampire Survivors,
Brotato,
Halls of Torment,
Soulstone Survivors,
God Of Weapons,
Boneraiser Minions,
Bio Prototype,
Bounty of One,
Spellbook Demonslayers,
Snake Farm,
Goobies,
SNKRX,
20 Minutes Till Dawn,
Disfigure,
BloodDome Classic,
Nomad Survival,
Void Survivors,
Super Kill-BOI 9000,
as well as demos for:
Froguelike,
Deep Rock Galactic Survivors,
Cursorblade,
Roguenarok,
Happy hunting and thanks for watching!
@@Penguin_Sal Well damn, time to go hunting. Thanks. I'll be sure to send the bill to you as my wallet won't be happy with this.
@@ChaoticFear19 No, please. I can barely sustain my own video game purchases. Two will bankrupt me, LOL.
It’s August of 2024 and so meny of these games are getting removed from steam normally for developers violations but I’ve not been able to find out what these violations are? Did they steal art or IP’s kinda like what palworld was accused of?
wow I thought I knew most of the latest bullet heavens... guess I was wrong 😅
More and more coming out every day. It's a part-time job just sourcing through them all, LOL. Thanks for watching!
I'm a newbie indie game dev with data analysis background. Do you think this genre is still worth trying if I make my first game? It seems to me that the genre is very saturated, lots of game feel like a copy-cat of Vampire survivor/Brotato/20 mins till dawn mostly because they don't have creative mechanic or suffer from grinding, boring meta-progression system
To me it feels like these games are all the same.
The more I play them, the more they start to feel like that to me too, honestly. I think there are some that bring a bit of thunder to the table, but like 85% are too dang similar. Thanks for watching!
if you are aspiring to make the next great meta progression wave survival bullet hell game...please don't.
There are definitely a lot, but if you are a fan of the genre, there are some really good ones out there, and I am sure some of the many that continue to be released will also be quite good. It does beg the question though of how long this saga will go on for, and when it has eventually died out (which I believe it will), what comes next? Thanks for watching!
Hello- game dev here.
I think the best part about wave-survival games is that they can generally be duck-taped into other genres really easily.
For example, If you create a roguelike, it’s really easy to create a wave-survival mode ON TOP of your existing infrastructure. Obviously it will still take effort; but it’s much easier to create
@@user-ob5hj5vn8c
You can also duct tape a food and health survival mechanics into any other genre really easily. This doesn't make it a good idea. Unless you have unlimited budged and development time, less is more.
@TourFaint hmm, I see your point, but I also think that general roguelikes and wave-survival likes share many common systems.
For example:
- permadeath
- item/stat progression
- killing of enemies
- creating fun builds
- Rerolling / build-crafting / synergies
My main point is that they share very much common systems, so if you can engineer your code such that your game "could" support both styles, then I would say it's a decent idea. As a dev, I honestly believe that it wouldn't be hard to reuse systems between these two modes.
This comment inspired me to make the next great meta progression wave bullet hell game. Thanks!