Roguelikes Vs Roguelites: What's The Difference?
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- Опубліковано 28 чер 2024
- Roguelikes are one of the top up and coming genres on the market at the moment, and for some it may feel like a new fad, but they've been around for forty years now. Roguelites on the other hand are the new fad, but apart from switching the K to a T, what's the difference between the two, and why does it matter?
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Chapters:
00:00 - Intro
00:31 - What's In A Name?
02:27 - What Is Rogue?
04:08 - Acknowledging The Berlin Interpretation
05:51 - The Three Components Of A Roguelike
08:10 - What Are Roguelites?
11:28 - Caveats
12:20 - Conclusion
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Here are some sources on The Berlin Interpretation:
www.gamesetwatch.com/2009/12/c...
www.roguebasin.com/index.php?t...
And on the Roguelike vs Roguelite debate:
www.gamesofgrey.com/blog/?p=403
www.gamasutra.com/view/featur...
arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/0...
www.engadget.com/2014-01-18-t...
www.gamasutra.com/blogs/LarsD...
www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Tanya...
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The music in this video is from A Shell In The Pit's Rogue Legacy OST!
Get it on Bandcamp: tettixashellinthepit.bandcamp...
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Check Out My Main Channel: / wanderbots
Wanderbot Prime is my side channel for highly edited, high effort, low output, gaming, tabletop, and VLOG content that doesn't really fit on my main LP channel. If you want to see more gaming content by me, go check my main channel out!
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Support me on Patreon: / wanderbot
My Twitter: wanderbots
Watch Me Live: twitch.tv/wanderbot
"sci fi horror third person shooter" definitely rings the "dead space series" bell for me.
The “roguelike,” not to be confused with the “roguelite,” not to be confused with the “roguelikelike,” not to be confused with the “coffee-break roguelike,” not to be confused with the “minimalist roguelike,” not to be confused with the “tiny roguelike,” not to be confused with…
Well I can only assume that “fantasy sports visual novel” is Pyre
Really cool to see you branch out into different things and your coverage of this topic was in my eyes spot on.
Excellent video, Wander. Will definitely be looking forward to more of these.
I’ve been wondering about this for a while. Thanks for clearing it up!
This is such a wonderfully constructed video! You explained everything in great detail, but kept it clear and concise. I really appreciate the effort you put in for this video!
I'm actually really glad for this. I've never been able to figure out the difference between the two, so this has helped a lot. Also, I'm happy to see Wander branch out into different genres(?) and try new things.
I love this form. You've got a great voice for teaching and discussion.
Action platformer cooking simulator
"Over Cooked" is my guess. 🤷♂️
Battle chef brigade
the cooking simulator one, it's the Battle Chef Brigade, right?
This is actually pretty good, keep it up wander! :D
Great video! Found your channel through this recommendation and subbed. I'm a huge fan of roguelikes, metroidvanias, and indie games in general.
Nice and informative video! 💪
Thank you for this because I've been so confused for ages lol
Been following since your anarcute lets play. Love hearing your voice; would like to see more of these videos
i love this style of video, please make more
I was wondering what was the difference between the two recently, thanks for the video!
Excellent video!
Huh... I heard it was Northernlion who coined the term "Roguelite". But I didn't ever fact check that.
Good essay. One recommendation would be to make the gameplay window bigger so viewers can see more. particularly on mobile
I always thought the difference is that roguelites have some kind of metaprogression but rogue*likes* don't
Most of the time, yeah.
But that does beg the question, do roguelites become roguelikes after finishing the progression?
Let's take Hades as an example, you have plenty of metaprogression to go through, but when people talk about the runs it's from the assumed perspective of having it all unlocked. Basically when there's no more progression to be made.
This question is extremely on point and philosophically elevated. Indeed so. "lites" turn into "likes" once the meta progression is finished. I doubt someone is willing to try a 64-heat run in Hades without having bought everything that could help.
Hey Wander!
Another good example from a big developer is Nifleheim? Svatlheim? I forget the name, but the roguelite world in God of War 2018 where you had to run through a procedurally generated labyrinth that had meta progression to make subsequent runs last longer until you could fully run through the labyrinth and reap the greatest rewards from the prize room.
Good luck on growing this channel, you've got my sub!
Nifleheim.
I honestly wondered the difference. Thanks wander!!!
I LOVED rogue. Nice synopsis. For me unlocks are solidly in the Roguelike category. The key element that differentiates a light for me is any real meta progression where you START a run objectively improved/altered. Being able to unlock more possibilities for what happens during a run is, to me, a "like" mechanic that keeps the game fresh.
Its alright,but the issue i have with it is unlocking shit by dying.If i beat the game and the game decided to give me brand new item,i wouldnt complain.
Roguelikes: Turn based, grid based, permadeath, no meta progression (except maybe new characters)
Rougelite: Run based, meta progression, can be any genre
As an example: Isaac is a rougelite, TOME is a rogelike
Thank you for saving me 14 minutes
Thank you
If there is any progression even when you die, it defies the idea of Rogue the classic 80s turnbased RPG. And to remotely relate to Rogue any game has to be an RPG where death is the ultimate punishment. And most games are not even close, lite or heavy.
i love roguelites. as a more casual gamer its a great balance between challenge and progression to a final goal.
I like them too, but I only dislike if they heavily rely upon these upgrades to progress and win. The ones that keep a fair balance where upgrades exist to keep you invested, but at the same time keep the game challenging are the best ones for me.
'Sentai Tactical Role Playing Game'
Chroma Squad!?
Thank you wander! I never knew any of this!
1:43 I remember a game where all the weapons were love targets
While I, like a lot of other people who used to play what the video labels "Traditional Roguelikes", have long ago given up on attempting to draw a differentiation between those games and things like the Binding of Isaac or Slay the Spire I do think that it's important to still have discussions about genre. This was a good video on the topic, and while I disagree with some points you make, I do think it's a good way to go forward with it.
Part of the issue I think stems from people often misunderstanding what a "genre" is. While it is a classification system, modern day (as opposed to, say, ancient greek strict classifications of literature and theater) genres are conventions - if enough common characteristics are shared between two things, then they are said to be part of the same "genre". Thus, genre is descriptive, not prescriptive. This, however, requires having a commonly agreed upon list of characteristics by which to measure a work of art so it can then be classified. Aaaand that's where roguelikes run into a bit of issue - The Berlin Interpretation was exactly that, an attempt to create a commonly agreed upon list of characteristics. The problem is - nobody actually agreed to those. Not really.
This video itself makes a good attempt at creating such a list, but I think some of the aspects that you deem as less crucial for classification, I would deem to be quite integral - in this case, meta progression. I would argue a very core characteristics of a roguelike game is that EVERY SINGLE run you start - from the first one to your 200th one, should contain the exact same amount of game and game components in it. As such Binding of Isaac would not qualify as the game unlocks not only different items, but also different characters, different enemies, different levels and such that only can be accessed after playing the game for some time, rather than being available from the get go. That's kind of the main thing I'd argue against in the video - Unlocks absolutely are meta-progression, as an unlock changes something about the game.
Still, I think the most important topic that gets lost a lot online is that just because a game does or does not fit into a specific genre classification does not in any way relate to that game's quality! I think Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup is a good game. I think Slay the Spire is a good game. I have spent way too much of my life playing both of those. But I think the first one is a roguelike, and the second one isn't. And that statement should not somehow invalidate the previous one.
I think there's a huge difference between the unlocks in Slay The Spire, which are little more than a difficulty curve to keep some of the more complex builds away from extremely new players, and then the unlocks in Isaac, which frankly have supplanted the entire game at this point.
I'd definitely agree that Isaac's status at this point is solidly more in the roguelite camp, but I'm not so sure I'd apply the same logic to Spire. Now, if you were approaching this from the angle of 'ascension levels are a form of negative megaprogression', then I'd probably have to agree a lot more.
Cool video! My guesses are as follows in the order you listed.
1. Dead Cells
2. Dead space
3. Boyfriend dungeon? Tbh could be a lot of games
4. Pyre (without a doubt)
5. No clue (i really don't know)
6. Fire Emblem
7. Battle chef Brigade?
Hollow knight
I see the Persona series instead of Boyfriend Dugeon, but your right about how many that describes. As for the 5 game, the one you dont know, it could be one of the Atelier series like Riza or Sophia.
@@HeavenLeahSky that has no roguelike or roguelite elements. it is a platformer, but there are save points, you don't have to start from the beginning when you die, the world is not procedurally generated, etc.
Finally, a video to point people to to tell then what I actually mean.
Thank you wander!
I need to rewatch just to write down some games for my play next list!
"a fantastic roguelike based entirely upon minesweeper"
I'm buying this game asap those are two of my favorite things hell yeah
very exciting to see you venture into new areas :D I like it!
the Diablo Series is actually heavily based on and inspired by rogue likes, so that would probably one of the closer games to a AAA rogue-x title.
Though they did move away from that a lot in part 3, they might go back to the roots a little more with part 4.
Returnal is the best triple A roguelike
I thought dead cells was an indie game
@@pachurro2762 yes dead cells is an indie game.
Only the Hardcore mode, probably.
I didn't think I'd like the genre until I tried it. Tangledeep, Hades, Deep Sky Derelicts, Dicey Dungeons, Rogue heroes Ruins of Tasos, Dungeonmans...All have been loads of fun.
Always felt you had a good voice for videos essays. You came off a bit stiff and could tell you were reading off a script. Once you get the flow from your let's play commenty into your video essays you will be golden. Keep it up man can't wait to see what else you drop in the future.
Cool video i like
The Berlin Interpretation is not a binary, it's a scale. There are different "point systems" people have come up with to see how rouge-like a game is.
The four first are a must, in my opinion, though. (as i do belive that to even qualify to be called rouge-like it *must* be turn-based and grid-based.
Thank you some jargin is esy to pick up but this is some i realy dident pin down properly
You should make the screen displaying the topic bigger
Itd be super cool to see a Vtuber style model for wander for these kinds of videos. Simple hand and head gestures with like the light on the helmet flickering with each spoken word
Undermine:Othermine. Has the spiders from dont starve. That is amazing exact drawing.
Also if you ses this wonderbot, im very curious on what you would call, diablo. Hammerwatch, and Heroes of Hamerwatch. If you do respond, very appreciated.
1:41 I'm betting dead space?
This video told me everything I wanted to know.
Now I might consider getting Scarlet Maiden.
Returnal and Deathloop have come out since this video came out, two AAA examples of that genre. Thoughts?
"We haven't really seen a big studio make a game in this space before"
Nintendo just released Side Order for Splatoon 3 c:
ARNF > Dead Space > Boyfriend Dungeon??? > Pyre > SpaceChem/Opus (except that's alchemy) > Chroma Squad? > Battle Chef Something... can't remember the full name. I always wanted to play it, but it went over my radar.
Edit: I know there is another visual novel dungeon crawler, but I cannot for the life of my remember the name.
"Battle chef brigade"
What would the mystery dungeon series be considered then? They have most of the core of rogue like games do, with the only exception being the perma death bit, but it does still kick you out of the dungeon.
I'd argue they probably fall under the Roguelite banner because of the lack of perma death- but since they already have the fantastic "Mystery Dungeon" genre label, I'd rather use that instead.
From what I've seen there is WAY higher chance that harcore classical rogue-like community will consider than a roguelike than anything like FTL or Spelunky, because it shares the core ideas about the gameplay despite lacking one of the most recognizable mechanics of the genre.
Well, this is also my way I like to differiante that: "rogue-like" is specific type of gameplay, "rogue-lite" is using some elements commonly associated with rogue-likes like permadeath and randmoness for other types of gameplay (like platformers, space sims, fps etc)
The platformer metroidvania was that Hollow Knight? (Never watched but, interested in playing)
Roguelike: Same simultaneous turnbased, top down, gridbased gameplay as Rogue.
RogueLITE: an indie game.
Whenever I heard people talk about them I didn’t know there was 2 words.
I always think of
Binding of Isaac Enter the gungeon
Undermine and Hades.
Prefer when you have permadeath and you start from scratch and being able to sent money back to shop like undermine.
Going in fresh first time is great then after a couple times you played buying small starters that help or sometimes even small upgrades.
I think the whole point is every run is meant to be different and that’s what I love nothing is the same.
Anyway great video.
Same! I thought I was mishearing or thinking it was one of those pronouncations things
Action platformer is that battle chef game you played a while back, and that fantasy sports game is the supergiant game pyre? I dont know how to spell it.
Yup and yup!
the first description thing described dead cells im pretty sure, and action platformer cooking simulator is probably overcooked
My guesses are:
1) Hollow Knight
2) Dead Space
3) Persona 3/4/Golden/5/Royal
4) Pyre (only one I dont know)
5) Atelier Riza (or one of the others)
6) Viewtifull Joe
7) Dungeon Munchies
I think 1 is Dead Cells, because Hollow Knight isn't a roguelite. Good guesses though, you got more than I did
#3 is far more likely Boyfriend Dungeon and #7 could be Dungeon Munchies but my money is on Battle Chef Brigade. Which I think is the point that we can debate these as many can fit some of these categories. Oh, and #6 is definitely not Viewtiful Joe, since that's not a tactical game. Chroma Squad is definitely what he meant here.
Hollow Knight is a metroidvania.
I think a good name for rougelike would be Sisyphean, a virtually impossible task, and rougelite would be herayclean (Herculean is Roman myth) a almost impossible task.
I don't the difference in the genre names being a single letter, especially since like and lite sound the same in certain accents
I don't see why Procedural Death Labyrinth is that bad considering Role Playing Game is pretty vague yet has become apart of typical lexicon to just describe things vaguely inheriting tabletop tropes and systems.
Maybe Procedural Death Game is a better descriptor?
It kinda is, but its probably terrible marketing tbh. Way less appealing than roguelite/like
Metaverse Keeper is one of my favorite roguelites
Tbh im coining the term *“DeathCrawler”*
Closest thing I could think of.
Also “Repeat DeathCrawlers” or “Complex DeathCrawlers”
Gonna be honest was falling asleep during this love the idea though. Just felt like i was a kid being read a story book. Wich tbf isn't bad but makes it hard to retain info.
He's very good at putting people to sleep
Id like to add Wazhack to the list of great Roguelikes
2nd one is Dead Space :D
Rogue like name ideas:
1. Death progression
2. Randomly generated and replayable (RGR)
3. Repetitive and randomly-generated (RRG)
4. Death is temporary! But procedurally-generated levels are eternal! (DIT!BPGLAE!)
5. Rogue-ish / Rogue-esk
Rogue-like -> death progression
Rogue-lite -> death, upgrade, progression
First one is Salt and Sanctuary
Is the action platformer cooking simulator dungeon munchies
one of the most well known roguelites that are similar to rogue in my mind is pokemon mystery dungeon
I have a suggestion, “Redeath forward
Esoteric chemistry simulator could be Noita
Is a randomizer nuzlocke a roguelike?
does this mean it could be argued that randomizers, like a super metroid randomizer run, would count as roguelites? They have procedural generation for each run, and are certainly complex, but there just isnt permadeath at all. 'normal' save style
Kiiinda. The big issue is that while the powerups (and sometimes the whole map) is randomized, there just isn't enough variety to qualify. Compare a Super Metroid randomizer run to A Robot Named Fight and the difference becomes pretty clear.
So, crimson and burgundy, would those be rouge-likes?
5:45 I can hear they're screaming
i never hear anyone mention UNDERMINE .. such a GREAT game
Is board games, where you play against the game like Pandemic and Robinson Crusoe are consider rougelike?
I think there are similarities, but not enough to call them roguelikes.
Good script, but you sound stilted, like this was your first take recording it.
The game backdrops are at the annoying middle ground between taking up too much of the screen to tune out, and not enough of the screen to be the focus. Making it difficult for me to relate what you are saying to what you are showing.
If rouge like was made by triple AAA -A-
"to unlock the next pool of iteams and areas, buy a lootbox -gamble- open the boxes and have chance being and we totally didn't rig it"
Dungeon crawler dating sim: Stardew Valley?
Pretty sure three of the games you listed by genre are A Robot Named Fight (possibly Dead Cells), Boyfriend Dungeon and Chroma Squad. Not a clue on the others.
Pretty sure the dating sim dungeon crawler sounded like persona
@@deathblade32 that explains why I had no clue on that one. The game never interested me, so I don’t know the ins and outs of it.
Santa Monica was that big studio then
It’s actually really simple. If you’re getting something permanent from previous runs and it is an item or skill it’s lite otherwise it’s like, and I’ll avoid like like the plague.
Unlocks by definition are lite.
so is the Zelda a Roguelike or Roguelite?
Moonligther is such a good Roguelite
1:51 that's way to many to even count
1. Dead Cells
2. Dead Space
3. Boyfriend Dungeon
4. Pyre
5. Spacechem
6. Chroma Squad
7. Battle Chef Brigade (or Dungeon Munchies)
And now I feel pathetic for not struggling to name something in every category.
We can use the cool words To give some perspective, starter description/speech but nothing definitive
sentai is 100% chroma squad
So why isnt hades considered a rouguelite if it has meta progression
IMO the meta progression is more of an obligatory difficulty curve, where you aren't really scaling past the planned challenge of the game by maxing out the mirror, unlike Rogue Legacy where you can get pretty busted by the end.
It's definitely a grey area though.
The good thing about Hades is that it also lets you "roll back" on those upgrades, and basically strip yourself off of everything. But yeah, it *does* feel like the game was *not* intended to be played with zero stat upgrades (low health, no dash etc). It also has a mechanic to increase dungeon difficulty, which tries to balance the difficulty curve and prevent you from making the game way too easy through powerups.
So yeah.. definitely a grey area there
Is your name Brendon
So minecraft is a roglight and if you tern on peradeth its a roglike
Potentially, yeah. Might be too sandboxy. If you could introduce a more structured series of dungeons with a portal to the end at the bottom, I'd say yes, absolutely.
@@WanderbotPrime So roglight on both accounts than?
"Action platformer cooking simulator" - Zelda BOtW
Nope!
Well, I mean yes, but it's not the one I was thinking of when I wrote the script.
Roguelites are games with some features from a roguelikes. Like how a gatcha is technically one really long run. But that's not enough to make it a roguelite either. Something like Fire Emblem is Roguelite. It has a few features of roguelikes.
Throwing out the term PermaDepth for games that have perma death but give you upgrades after death to make you better and add more depth to the game.
So Hades and Dead cells and games like that
Action platformer cooking simulator made Zelda BOTW pop into my head, even though non-linear open world would be far better ways of explaining it. Still, it IS an action platformer cooking simulator so…
No, i have no idea what a “dating sim dungeon crAwler” is😅😂
Hardcore platformer metroidvania roguelite = hollow knight? (Specifically steel soul)
"Looter Slasher"
The names Roguelikes and Roguelites is a lost cause. Most people will have hard time differentiate them. If you search for Roguelikes and Roguelites on Steam, most games will show up on both. However on Steam there is a Tag call "Traditional Roguelike" which properly define the true Rougelikes. Also if you type "rogue" to search Tags. There are also Action Roguelike, Traditional Roguelike, Roguevania, Roguelike DeckBuilder. And as you can see, Roguelike become the standard name to also represent Roguelite. Slay the Sipre and Risk of Rain 2 are tag as Roguelike DeckBuilder and Action Roguelike respectively. Where clearly they are Rougelite.
Steam says Hades is both Roguelite and Roguelike, they are shooting themselves in the foot there.
Roguelike - Snake and FTL
Roguelite - Hades