Like John Jones, I work onsite for all my projects as I don't have the room for a workshop with all my projects I have full plans and lists before I start the job. So I think it is down to the skill of the man not the set up that matters. I know I have lost a lot of business over the years as they wanted me to do work below my own standards using cheap quality material and hardware. The way I look at it is if the quality is not good enough for my house then I won't put it in someone else house as it just shows you up as they won't be thinking why did I tell him to use cheap material in 5 years time they will just say you are useless and that is all they will tell their friends and family.
Thanks for the analysis Alistair, helpful for both potential customers and furniture makers alike. I'm very grateful for the work of yourself and others such as Peter Millard and Andy Mac. Invaluable for guys like me in the first years of running a carpentry business.
michael burton thanks for the comment and I’m always quite pleased to be bracketed with Peter and Andy, I like to think we each have a slightly different slant on similar types of woodwork and that our content is hopefully complementary rather than competing!
Fantastic video as always! Love to hear your thoughts and opinions on methods and another great job done. I would probably put myself in between those two jobs and cost wise, probably to the lower end. But, like yourself, I would make a lot of it off site in my workshop. I also do the same method of making doors as you - but I cut the centre panel out myself with a plunge saw and use a rebating bit from the back to put the panel in and then glue and pin in place. I too do all my fillers and face frames the same as you and use a concealed hinge. I always give the choice to the customer - whether they want MDF or MRMDF. Things I don’t do - I don’t do detailed drawings, I don’t spray and I don’t use beech ply for the internals. But I do strongly recommend a painter that I trust to get the best possible finish with hand painting and tell customers the attention and care that MDF needs to get the best finish. Keep up the great work!
Hi Alastair. Brilliant channel. Only discovered a couple of months ago but am hooked. Late response to some brilliant comments. I’m a carpenter since leaving school. Now 53. Do a lot of fitted furniture wardrobes floating shelves. I love doing them & would like to just do them all the time. I make & fit on site but am in the process of converting my garage into a home workshop. I feel that’s the way to go to achieve better results & make life easier all round. I consider myself very fairly priced if anything underpriced. I’m finding I’ve not got a few jobs recently follow ons in a couple of cases where I’ve got a bit dearer due to increasing material costs. I buy 50 sheets of 18mm mdf. I think it’s medite. I paid about £850 for these from magnets early 2021 by buying them in bulk. Now the same amount at current costs will be £1800. As it’s £36 a sheet now. Other thing I find is quite often once I’ve fitted my work , customers then paint what I’ve done to keep costs down & make a right lash up of it. Clearly doing no rubbing down in between coats especially on edges. Hence getting a really poor finish which to someone not knowing looks like that’s how I’ve machined it.
Hi Tony thanks for commenting and I'm glad you like the channel. I reckon that if you are fitting unpainted MDF furniture you are definitely attracting a very price sensitive customer base and it will be hard to break out of that until you offer more. It's tricky because the step up to offering painted work feels like a big one. But the other route is to offer melamine carcases and bought-in vinyl wrap doors. look at @barrettsfittedfurniture on instagram, or the jounrye that John Jones took from raw MDF - @jonesinteriors_sw - coincidentally he commented on this thread 3 years ago! Howeer you do your doors, moving over to melamine internals is a must. Apart from that, marketing is key, as I learned too late,.
Good information. I too find it is incredibly difficult to convey quality and craftsmanship in proposing work to a client. Recommendations and referees are invaluable. When you were explaining the reason for a gap between rail and stile it seemed as if the rail shrank where I feel you were attempting to explain the movement of the timber would be across the width and not the length (therefore the shrinkage in the stile would be responsible for any gap between the two). And in my first floating panel doors it was not allowing for enough space for the expansion of the solid timber "floating" panel across its width that caused the gap between the rail and stile! Cheers, David
DRMNZ hi David maybe I’ll do a video on wood movement one day... I’m not saying I’m the biggest expert on it but as Inunderstand it, shrinkage/expansion along the length of the fibres (grain) is almost negligible, but is more significant across (perpendicular to) the grain, as you found in your solid panel door. So what’s actually happening with any hairline crack that appears at the joints of 5 piece doors is usually the differential of the rail shrinking/expanding in width against the side of the stile that is not shrinking. So it’s not a separation movement but a sort of glancing sideways movement that causes a crack to show. Alternatively as you have suggested it could also be a solid panel expanding and forcing those joints open. Does that makes sense?
+DRMNZ When trying to convey to clients standards of works and finish I always who them a sample of a products. I have small tables, cabinets and so on done to different grades that I can show them and explain to them. I even have do that with designers and architects at times because it is can be very difficult in words if the potential client has never seen such an example. It would be like trying to explain a Rolls Royce car to somebody who has only ever experienced a 1990s old Vauxhall car and has never seen anything like a Rolls Royce.
Good video Alistair I’d also argue some if your points. I don’t have a workshop either but get all my panels cut and edged by Cutwrights, all my doors are also made as 5 piece doors. I have seen some dodgy work out there produced in local workshops so I think it depends on the standards you work to. All my painting is done on site by a professional furniture painter and people assume his finish has been sprayed so it’s not all about having a workshop.
MDF had a bad rap for quite a few years in the UK -- to my untrained eyes / ears -- but having very recently waded into the woodworking world and started making very rudimentary things with it, I can honestly say I'm very impressed with it's strength and flexibility in terms of its applications and uses. Sealing edges and preparing them for paint is a little extra work when going for aesthetics and even long-term durability, but I think it's worth the extra outlay in effort.
Like the video. Think you handled the comparisons very well without putting the cheaper job down. I have worked on jobs where other people have done work and the customer is very happy with the finish. Quite often after we have completed our work, it is only then that they notice the difference in finish between previous work and ours. This is no disrespect to whoever did the other work, the work was to a good standard and the customer was happy with it, it's just to highlight that the customer sometimes has no idea of the different quality in work until they see a comparison. At the end of the day, as long as when you're doing a job, the quality of work is in line with what the customer is paying and the customer is happy - then you have done an excellent job. Think your video does a great job of comparing the quality differences you can expect between two similar jobs in different price ranges, this is always difficult to get across. Not all customers can afford or even want a high end product and there are markets for high end work right down to the most basic work. Providing companies don't promise better than they can deliver then there's work enough for all and happy customers - regardless of the quality.
alex mcneely thanks Alex I’m glad you thought it came across well. I often think, for years I was installing work with an ‘orange peel’ textured hand roller painted finish and all my customers were more than happy with everything but now that I do sprayed work I find the work I used to do poor quality. But I couldn’t have offered anything better at that stage of my business. You are right to say if the customer is happy and the price is right for them then it’s basically still a job well done.
Great video. It was good to see a comparison of others work. I make similar stuff for my own house as I renovate. I also know people who are winning work on price alone and wonder what their quality is like. I felt you went out of your way not to criticize the other job, but to me the items you pointed out (the slab doors, the hinges and the finish on that top) were not acceptable. The hinges are plain wrong. Whilst I could accept some things being done more easily and cheaply I would never accept that on my own amateur work. Your work on the other hand is superb and you clearly have high personal standards. Only found your channel recently but very interesting and I particularly enjoy the emphasis on the business aspects.
Definitely worth taking all said into consideration when choosing a company for such projects. If you treasure details, aesthetics and class rather then bare functionality I would definitely choose your company 👍. Great videos, love them.
I have watched your videos for well over a week now and you have inspired me to do better!. currently i make bespoke projects on site and before i never battered an eyelid. i thought that battling painting and dust were all part of the norm when going into customers houses but i have a new goal, to get a workspace to pre build so no cutting and painting needs to take up the clients time and frustrations. Thank you for showing me a great method to approach fitted furniture, i usually build everything into the alcoves , utilising all of the space but building a box and hiding that in the alcove is better in terms of shelving and time. i look forward to wathcing more of your videos as my time on this planet progresses . thank you once again
That's really nice to hear that the channel has inspired you! That was one of my aims. You will definitely find the extra content over at www.buymeacoffee.com/freebird valuable. There's a preview on this instagram post of the alcove blueprints available to members: instagram.com/p/B4qKiopA2Hj/? Lots of extra member only content too including a multipart video series covering a complex project from start to finish and covering more detail on the workshop preparation than in any of my public videos: instagram.com/p/B5TtHmPgxkW/?
Very helpful, thank you - to me as someone looking at making DIY fitted furniture (as even the lower budget version is too much at the moment!) so I can hopefully strive for a higher end finish. It won’t be your standard but will certainly be better than that warped door, furry end grain and split hinge fixings…
£250 for painting sounds very cheap? Thanks for the vids, it's so interesting to see how other people work. As a small manufacturer myself, I find pricing is always a pain, because obviously you want the work, but need to make a living and cover your costs. I think the joiner who built the other unit might have realised that he hadn't made a great deal of profit by the time he'd bought and fitted the glass shelves etc.. in terms of the doors I mainly use the method of gluing 6mm strips onto a 12mm back panel and routing a v through the join, also routing the edges depending on the design. Anyway, enjoy watching the Channel.
john parsons I’ve done the applied strips method on shaker doors too. In the end I felt it wasn’t that much easier than gluing and clamping up a 5 piece door - you have to either clamp the strips on or pin and fill them; then you have a poor edge to flatten off etc.
Freebird Interiors I started using mitre bond a while back. It means I get an instant bond. I allow a tiny overhang on the strips and trim back with the router. The join is practically invisible and it means I'm not holding up space in my small workshop. If I had extra space I would definitely use your method, but needs must.
john parsons interesting. How much of the surface do you cover with the glue and do you use the activator spray? My current method is actually to outsource the door manufacture to a CNC manufacturer! There’s a 3 part series about how we get these made on the channel. And in due course we will be getting a CNC machine of our own and doing it in house.
Freebird Interiors Hi. A straight bead of glue along both edges, and a staggered bead in between. I do use the activator. Do give an idea, I can get around 8 wardrobe size doors from 500ml/50ml activator and glue combination. My standard door construction is a 12mm Medite back, with 6mm strips. Once the strips are glued on, and before I take it off the bench I run my v groove along the inside of the strips and through the vertical joint. Then across the inside of the rails taking care to stop at the stiles. The edges are then trimmed square or quarter rounded. Going to watch your outsourcing video. Problem for me is at the moment I can produce and fit roughly a bedroom a week, and I'm not sure I want to expand.
john parsons wouldn’t it be easier to run a bearing guided chamfering bit all around all the strips prior to assembly, then you’ve got your v groove joint ready made?
So this is a problem I’m dealing with , after many years being someone who can do this for you as a “side job” I now want to take it on full time. I have space to build off site and spray units , but the difference in prices to charge baffles me , thanks for sharing your thoughts Alistair it make more sense. I think I under estimate actually what I do 😳
Great video, really shows the difference in quality. I think you could have also added that the national companies aren’t as able to bespoke it as much as they have set sizes to work with often.
MrBishbashbosh2012 good point. I think I might actually have talked about that in a bit of footage I trimmed to avoid the video being too long! The big national companies (I’m thinking Sharps, Hammond etc, not the higher end Neville Johnson etc) seem to price around my current prices (or usually starting higher, then coming back down with a ‘sale’ offer), but as you say they are not really so bespoke, using fixed door widths and very limited range of drawer runner lengths etc.
Hi What you need to do is take this video to your customers, and show them the quality of work they will pay for , I am sure they can see that they would get a very good job with your company. Keep the vids coming please. Stuart
stuart williams that’s the plan, this one is aimed more at customers. I’m about to get a new website online which will have certain videos like this one embedded in it 👍
Good video, explaining higher costs to customers is difficult. I get my boards cut, edged and primed, then joint everything with Dominos and biscuits in my small home workshop. I then take everything to site and assemble. I use Medite boards, Blum hardware and good fittings throughout, everything is finished to a really high standard. I don’t make a lot of money out of this but I’m still getting potential clients telling me they have had a quote for half the price. What I really want to tell them at this stage is that anything that cheap is going to be a total piece of shit. Obviously that’s not quite the approach to take with a client, so I try to explain things in a similar way to you and avoid criticising other tradesmen. But one day I will snap and start ranting!
I used those hidden hinges before. I did exactly the same as that guy did with the edge grain screws. It split because I joined two boards together. This was when I first started. Thankfully now I use concealed hinges.
If the customer wants traditional style butt hinges on MDF doors, you can glue a strip of solid timber to the edge of the door, then glue your 6mm panels ontop to hide the join. The timber allows you to securely fix butt hinges to the door. If you sand and seal all the edges this can work well.
Can't help think that a couple of hours with some p38, a sander, and a high density roller full of paint would bring that budget build far closer in terms of finish qualty, Add some budget euro hinges and you're even closer. Very interesting comparison though.
I’d make the cabinets you did as a sole trader for £2800 and £400 to paint. I’d finish the job in 2 days from start to finish for the joinery work and my painter can paint the job in a day. I use a third party to cut the materials for a small fee. Melamine all internal carcasses and completely edged. I’d use paintable edging on any rough mdf edge that includes doors and shelves to make the painters life easier, the same filler panels and hinges. I just can’t understand how you can turn a decent profit sending detailed drawings, spraying(which would take 2-3days in itself), carefully delivering etc...
+lovey dovey As a sole trader I assume you are working mostly by yourself? Scale and production is what defines costings in terms of your actually input cost and sales price. If you tomorrow decided to make a Cola drink you would never be able to get to the price and quality level of the bigger companies. You either would have to focus on quality which will mean higher cost or decide to focus on lower cost which will then affect the quality. If you were to invest in productivity such as using certain machines you will find that you can impact price but you need then focus investment. Most businesses that fail do not do so because of lack of sales it occurs because of poor finances.
Fair comparison however there are some small carpenter joiners who will make the units in their workshop who use moisture resistant MDF and spray paint them and would use the recessed kitchen type hinges and hardware
Yes absolutely true, I didn’t mean to be too black and white about differences, there is plenty of quality work from one man setups, in fact some of the best.
I have been working on new builds since I became a carpenter. I recently quit my job doing that as the original spark and enthusiasm for carpentry that I used to have was completely gone. I am trying to get into doing this kind of work and I've only just started out so I'm not going to be able to offer the pre sprayed finish that I would like. But I am a perfectionist so I wouldn't be able to live with myself putting out work like the lower end units you have shown here. I know I can offer a much higher standard to that even if i'm building it all on sight. Does anyone build on site but then sand fill and seal all the edges for the customer? Then they have a much better surface to work with when they paint it themselves? Or does anyone build on site and then also paint it on site as part of the service? I'm just looking for tips as i'm just starting but I also want to put out the best product I possibly can.
I been on both sides as a carpenter/ joiner. Learned my trade through apprenticeship and would always set up on site but covered all aspects from the roof to the kitchen. Would make units on site. But the more customers wanted furniture I moved to a workshop and changed my entire set up. For a shaker door I normally use a rail and stile method so would be interested to see the method you used on yours. Switched over to sayerlack paint and huge difference in finish.
@@Alastair_Freebird same as you I think. Acrylic primer and diamond White top coats. Saw your video and have movac down the road from me so tried them out. Massive difference. Much better finish using airless Graco fine finish
You were being really generous with that other guys work, the fit and finish on it is appalling even for a built on site job. Slab doors shouldn't warp like that as long as the MDF is decent quality, I'm guessing the stuff used there was absolutely cheapest available and then not moisture sealed after construction to stabilise it before painting. It all looked a bit of a cowboy job to be honest.
I would suggest that the biggest issue is how does the tradesperson convey to the potential client that his/her work will be worth the not inconsiderable extra cost. In the case shown, the client would probably be aware that the older units are beginning to show the signs of the lower costs - the painted edges, the splitting from screws. This case shows the benefit of getting recommendations from an independent third party ( interior designer in this instance). I agree that, for many people, the difference of around £3000 would entice them to have a site operation of about a week as against to the installation of the newer units of 3 days. So, I don’t think that extra 4 (?) days would be the critical factor in getting your workshop built product accepted. I also agree that having a workshop is not, in itself, the guarantee of higher quality. It should be because of the higher investment in equipment and time, but we have all probably seen crap from a workshop and excellence from an on-site cabinet maker. So, how do you convince someone to pay a lot more for higher quality? - does the client have the potential extra £3000? If not, walk away - does the client want better quality? Perhaps they are renting or about to sell the property. Again, walk away - controversially perhaps, are there signs in the house that the client values high quality? Ornaments, pictures, furniture etc. - that third party referral has almost done the sales job for you - but can you network with local influencers (what a horrible phrase) to get recommendations - get the client to your workshop if you can so that they can see the quality - and not just be told about it - have a library of samples (doors, hinges, edges, mouldings etc.) unpainted and painted, so that the client can make an informed decision - present yourself appropriately to the client ; don’t come over as a salesman when meeting the client but don’t go to the other extreme. Dress smartly, but not expensively; take your shoes off when going into the house; explain how yours is a family business - it’s success has come through quality and family values; don’t disparage other work on display - even if the client does; just say that every quality has its price and it’s place - our work is designed to last and last - for which there has to be a cost. That list is clearly not exhaustive - or necessarily totally appropriate as I’m not in the business and so don’t understand it’s nuances. However, I’ve been a (serious) amateur woodworker for over 40 years and, before retirement, had my own business employing around 40 people. I do actually do some consulting work for a couple of other businesses - but these are friends and I don’t expect payment.
Hi Karl thanks for asking, this is a question that has come up before and I’ve obviously laid myself open to it by sharing so much publicly. I’m not necessarily against it but I’m a bit sensitive after a web designer completely stole a whole page of my website for another joiner, text, job photos and pricing! I need to keep some semblance of intellectual propert on my output. But that said, it’s me in the video so if you want to reshare it and it helps you somehow I don’t see any harm in that!
@@Alastair_Freebird hey no worries Alistair, it's a really good breakdown of why you would pay more and how to make a informed decision. I won't share it though, but if anyone asks why fitted furniture cost so much I'll point them to your video 😊 keep up the good work mate, it's definitely inspiring to people like myself who are embarking on a similar journey. 😊
Hi, to paint a unit like that i would say a grand, i would probably fall inbetween the two prices that where stated (london) my products are always evolving, atm zinnser 123 plus, then crown undercoat \ primer then crown satin, crown because i have built up a good relationship with my crown shop, tou pret fillers in the early coats ,
Hi Alastair, I’m making a floor to ceiling display cabinet, 25 mm MDF top and bottom with hardwood corner posts, it has to be finished in black, I’ve rolled on white acrylic undercoat, rubbed down with 180 grit and re applied a second coat, will rub that down with 220, I need to start top coats soon, I need to put a top quality finish on in black, what paint do you recommend to use on the Leland acrylic undercoat ? Do I roll it and brush it on with a tin of paint or buy spray cans ? I’m not set up yet with my spray gun and compressor. Any help could be good 👍
Hi Graeme, sorry I took so long to see this and reply, perhaps I'm too late. Black paint can be a nightmare!!! I'd be wary of spray cans... might be incompatibilty with the base coat. Safest to use a compatible Leyland or Johnstones product - I'd get advice from a Johnstone's decorator centre.
@@Alastair_Freebird Hi , thanks for replying, yes I’ve dumped the spray can idea, dug out my compressor and gravity feed gun, it’s a white acrylic undercoat (leyland) would it be ok to use No nonsense water based gloss from a spray gun, also would you suggest watering it down ?
@@graemeeasterbrook4931 Honestly, the only thing I can wholeheartedly recommend is the Sayerlack AT99 paint we now use, preferably over their compatible undercoat. But have you seen this old video talking about our transition from the sorts of decorators paints you are discussing toward better spray paint? ua-cam.com/video/QjdIoW0rD3o/v-deo.html
Detailed info on how we prepare and paint mdf edges will feature in the second instalment of the ‘fitted furniture masterclass’ series which is currently going out to monthly supporters only. It’s only the price of a cup of coffee per month to support the channel that way: www.buymeacoffee.com/freebird
2k seems low for a week of work. After materials and expenses, the joiner probably made under 1k. Were the boxes made of particle board vs the plywood you used?
It depends on how hardworking the joiner in question was. I know people who will put in a 60 hour week but only really come out with a 40 hour pay but they are in real demand as their products are of a good quality. They have lasted through ups and downs that sank many competitors.
Nice measured comparison, you aren't coming accross like you're taking jabs at a jobbing joiner at all. I'm workshop based like yourself - wouldn't have it any other way!
Onsite construction can be just as good. It really all depends on cost. How much the client is willing to pay for the level of finish. I can produce cabinets on site that are just as good as off site but they are going to cost more because they require more work and maybe different materials as well. My business once did restoration and rebuild work and we choice specifically to do it onsite so every detail could be worked their and then but that costs a lot of money to do.
Love your videos and your work. However at just over 3 minutes in I feel I have to stop the video and disagree with some of the things you are saying. I do a lot of bespoke work myself and am not lucky enough to have a workshop. Living in London it’s not cost effective for my company at this stage. However, comparing these two jobs is fair, but, not a fair comparison to compare the on site work to all who work on site only. For example, I survey my jobs to the millimetre, use sketch up and produce a cut list from that. I then get my supplier (medite MR boards) to cut everything to size. I take this to site and unload all my festool gear including extraction and MFT (basically a portable workshop) and proceed to fit. My doors are always made up by dominos with 18mm stiles and rails and a 6mm centre sat in a rebate, clamped on site with 10 minute glue. Once I am done I then prep for finish. I then finish myself and spray in situ using HVLP Fuji spray q4 system with tikurilla paint. Everything is masked off and feel my level of finish is pretty comparable to yours although I expect it would be just that little better if I had that workshop. My price would be around 2/3's 3/4 of what you charge as a reference. My point is, not all joiners/Carpenter, whether mobile or from a workshop have the same standards. Just felt I had to get that out there. Keep up the great work. Best wishes
Good point, however would you charge 2000 for this job? I think the joiner vastly underpriced in this instance. It sounds like you have invested in your site setup considerably more than some.
jason child I’m glad for your input. What I said was oversimplified. Didn’t mean to tar anyone with the wrong brush. Thanks for saying it in respectful way 👍
@@jtrent90 'It sounds like you have invested in your site setup considerably more than some' exactly my point. And I'm sure some workshops have better setups and some probably worse than mine. Would I charge £2000? No, I would be charging much more. But then, I would be supplying a better standard of finish in my opinion. The old saying goes, you get what you pay for. I wouldn't want to criticise anybody's work but the flush hinges screwed directly to the side of the MDF would suggest to me that this joiner/carpenter is fairly inexperienced and priced up on what they thought was a good standard and rate for them personally. We have all underpriced work, doesn't mean you cut corners. You win some and you lose some....
@@Alastair_Freebird No offence taken, love your work and your videos. My point was a good tradesman can still get great results with the right amount of care and investment into their craft. If you know any cheap workshops going in South London.....😂
The 'other' units would have been vastly improved (& still could be!) with decent decoration. That was awful! However the thinner materials used certainly make for a much poorer quality product. Nice work Alastair. I always work on the adage that the in years to come the quality is remembered & not the price!
Alistair, Hi....with your waterbased paint you use which I believe is a single pack product (no catalyst added)..... do you have any issue with grain raising and swollen fibers on your MDF?.....as opposed to a pre-cat, AC or PU alternative?
Sharp Edge Woodworking you may be interested that the waterbased product we use does actually have the ability to be used as a 2 pack product: ua-cam.com/video/L-__eh0WuCE/v-deo.html
We have only ever used waterbased paints, to be honest I would love to get experience with the other types of paint but our workshop location next to a residential garden means we need to stick with waterbased. The Movac primer we use is designed to minimise grain raising in MDF, all the more so if you use the additive (though we actually don’t use it since we hardly noticed any difference) but yes there is some grain raising and lots of demobbing is needed. But this primer sands back very easily and very smooth and after the first coat and denib it’s all fairly flat. It’s also about the choice of MDF - we find Medite MR much better for surface finish compared to for example a kronospan board that seemed to raise a lot of big flecks on the surface when painted.
@@Alastair_Freebird Thanks for that reply Alistair.... Im mainly using Kronospan as this is what my merchant keeps on stock... though I think they can provide Medite as Lawkris are their supplier.... it just means I'd have to order it in advance rather then just being able to rock up and get what I need on the day.... It may be worth a try though, as I agree, I'm fining I do get some large swelling fibres in the Kronospan.... at least with the Leyland paints I'm spraying.
MySchizo Buddy we decide one day it looked better but also holds the screws better for the hinges. Had a job where the screws worked loose on the cheaper brown mdf.
Good video and you can defo see the difference in the finish. I know ur shop is home based was wondering do you get complaints from neighbours about noise. Ive set my workshop up and sound proofed and insulated and will be working from home next year
I think we are fortunate with understanding neighbours but also the distance from the noise making areas of the workshop is fairly far from the houses and we are careful to only work reasonable hours (8:30 to 5pm or occasional 6pm mon to fri only and no weekends). We are desperate to relocate and separate business from home life however this business is our only source of household income so all our eggs are in one basket and at present the figures just don’t seem to stack up to take on the extra overheads of a rented premises. But we are soon going to get a CNC machine which I think will be the key to producing work more profitably in-house and then when that’s all running smoothly we will relocate.
Hi Alistair great video I'm interested to know whether you had to inform the customer on the price difference or if they liked your work and its was fairly guaranteed ?
Hi Ben thanks, I quoted on the job and won it at that price, unaware of the price previously paid for the other work that had been done, and customer didn't query my price. I'd been recommended to the customer by an interior designer, I assume she understood already that we would do higher quality work.
For a hundred pounds or so of extra cost the £1,800 furniture could have been made to be just as good as the more expensive, workshop based product in my opinion. At £1,900 such a project would be a very good price indeed! I've been working as a self employed joiner making furniture for around fifteen years so I do have experience to back me up. I'm a 'one man band' that does have a workshop
One of the main sticking points would be matching the sprayed finish’s. The repeated denibbing between coats, the controlled environment of a spray booth, and the ability to spray parts separately laid flat would be very hard to replicate on site!
Paul Rossiter the time stamp must be wrong but I don’t doubt that you’re right, I can’t claim that we’re perfect in every way 😂 but I do know that Brady always takes care to sand off any slight splintering or fluff on the mitre cuts as seen on the other project (actually there shouldn’t be any splintering anyway of cut properly). Possibly there is a slight stop from a slight variation in the ogee profile - we have been getting this issue even within the same batch of mouldings from the same supplier that we always use. Have you got the actual time stamp you saw it at?
I was all prepared to say it’s a fair cop as I’m sure sometimes things are a little less than perfect but in truth what I think your seeing there is a difference in how the light is casting over the joints - landing evenly across the left one but picking out the opposing faces of the mitre in light and shade on the right one. But I am only checking on the phone not a big screen!
Lovely project, workshops always better. 5:39 your miter was a bit off square tho, moulding didn’t line up. Spotted and had to say 😂 just don’t ever look at my work ok.
Matthew Smith very impressive painting process! What products do you use, what application method, and what roughly would you be charging to paint a project like the £2k one in the video?
No doubt it's a tidy job...3x better hmmm - things the joiner could have done within budget to improve massivley says no to me..clean up the edges etc.
I'm a site building chippy and that unit was as rough as they come!!? Shame on that person leaving the finish like that! Gives the rest of us who take pride in their work a bad name.
Judging by this video I should of pursued the fitted furniture, and I should of also charged a lot more for the job I did 🤦♂️ I would of been ashamed with those edges 😮 ahh well nevermind
That 2k job was poor but you can’t ‘‘tis a one man band, we can have workshops aswell and have a high end finish. As for you 5k looks a tasty finish but it’s very basic Cabinetry and design for that price.
From which point of view - perceived value in the eyes of the customer, or the different business overhead and production costs? In truth there are more factors than those in pricing. Neville Johnson can charge £7k for a pair of alcove cabinets where I would charge less than £3k. The quality is no better (NJ staff member told me it’s probably slightly worse). Certain customers will still choose the £7k for the brand association.
Cant stand people who knock other people work... than on the next hand your telling people not to join mdf because it wharps .... than a few months later your Irish mate in hes joinery is doing the same thing so dont think you know what your talking about... as a Chippy who has worked for all the high end shops and homes I think your wrong mate ...please give up your day job
Why build furnitures from "shit" (MDF) which is painted after building it? Furnitures from "wood" you can build with boardr made from real wood. Not from glue with saw dust. MDF for furnitures is not worth the work and time you spend for working with. 5.000 Pound for scrap with paint!
palereinhold I had similar questions before I started trying to make a living from woodworking so I understand where you’re coming from. Are you interested in detailed answers? Happy to give them if you want.
@@Alastair_Freebird Hello back to the UK ;-) I think that's the difference between Germany and the peoples in the UK. In Germany we buy furnitures in a store. These are made from 16 or 19 mm chipboard and veneered. The hinges are "European style". You are making furnitures from MDF, painting it and they have horrible edges. Why so much of work for this result? "We" (in Germany) use MDF for workplace interieur... I think it's lost time to work with these materials and the result is poor. Excuse my bad english - it's a long time ago, that i visited the UK (Sheffield). I'm working with wood in my small shop (only 4 sm), but for my Livingroom i would never make such things. Regards and thank you for reading!
I’d love to do more solid wood work. But for white painted work consider this: at about £5k for this sort of work I am making a very modest living. It’s still very time consuming. If I offer solid wood, the most cost effective option would be radiata pine (knot free, paints well) but this is softer than MR MDF so less durable. Next option would be tulipwood, but this is no harder than the MR MDF. Top end option for solid wood for painting would be hard maple. But this would be hugely more expensive. I mean many times the cost in materials, but more than doubling the labour cost. And what would be the benefit? I mean, ok, to a customer who has £10k plus to spend yes it is better and I would prefer it myself, but it’s hard to justify for most customers. Also, in some respects it is not even a better material for this purpose. It could not be used for back panels. Even the deep countertops may be prone to cracking due to natural tendency of solid wood to shrink and expand. These are just some of the reason why most joiners use moisture resistant mdf for spray painted work like this - stability, hardness, smoothness of finish, and the best value material with those benefits.
Can see firing on your job on this video. I can also see badly finished mitres on your doors. Also why can’t a joiner working on his own be vat registered? Remember a video you recently uploaded that you’d gone back to that had opened up in all the joints. It’s the easiest job in the world to pick bad points on other people’s work.
Rothjon hi I was trying to take a measured view and not meaning to say I think our work is ‘perfect’ however I suppose I couldn’t help promoting our approach! Part of my intention was to say that there will probably be certain compromises at a lower price point but that’s not necessarily ‘bad’, the customer just needs to be informed and know the sorts of things they should check with a cheaper provider to be sure what they’re getting. I was expecting a degree of controversy about things I said and I welcome corrections or other viewpoints. I couldn’t afford my own prices if I was commissioning fitted furniture as a customer so I have no snobbery about the costs involved. I’m sure there are joiners working on their own who are VAT registered but to be turning over work above the VAT threshold (£85,000) without the overheads of staff etc suggests a level of earnings that would demand the sort of quality I am talking about from the mid to higher level providers. My categorisation was imperfect, apologies for any annoyance it may have caused 👍
Freebird Interiors no need to apologise. I came to this channel for clarification of the kind of work you do. Would your middle to high end work have a showroom in Tinsley? Sorry for my spelling mistake I didn’t get the opportunity to go to a grammar school, had to settle for Brinsworth comprehensive
Rothjon it feels a bit like you’re taking a dig at me here 😉 but you’re free to do so, it’s the risk I take putting this stuff out there! I honestly didn’t know if firing might be a painters term (I have no prior industry experience in painting) or I was guessing maybe you meant furring, I didn’t at all mean to sound ‘off’ about it. I don’t have any big agenda to big myself up here, or if I ever do I think I can cope with being brought down to size in a plain speaking way! At the moment it’s hard to imagine having a showroom, it also seems unnecessary. I think it makes sense for kitchen designers where the job values and margins are higher, however even then a lot of kitchen showrooms seem to be closing lately. In my experience it’s very hard to turn a genuine profit in this line of work. I think a lot of smart tradesmen are doing so by keeping it small and simple. Keeping overheads low gives you freedom and flexibility. Taking on more is tempting but it demands more and more of you before you see any real gain. There are all different approaches and space in the market for everyone, it’s not a matter of better or worse. The people who go for the real prestige positions in the market probably pay a high toll in terms of risk, stress and life balance.
Freebird Interiors I’m not taking a dig in any way. Promoting your business on your channel is a good thing. Like I said picking fault with others work is easy, good work speaks for itself without the need to give criticism to others. Unless the job was your work prior to having a workshop? None of this is in malice.
Like John Jones, I work onsite for all my projects as I don't have the room for a workshop with all my projects I have full plans and lists before I start the job. So I think it is down to the skill of the man not the set up that matters. I know I have lost a lot of business over the years as they wanted me to do work below my own standards using cheap quality material and hardware. The way I look at it is if the quality is not good enough for my house then I won't put it in someone else house as it just shows you up as they won't be thinking why did I tell him to use cheap material in 5 years time they will just say you are useless and that is all they will tell their friends and family.
Thanks for the analysis Alistair, helpful for both potential customers and furniture makers alike. I'm very grateful for the work of yourself and others such as Peter Millard and Andy Mac. Invaluable for guys like me in the first years of running a carpentry business.
michael burton thanks for the comment and I’m always quite pleased to be bracketed with Peter and Andy, I like to think we each have a slightly different slant on similar types of woodwork and that our content is hopefully complementary rather than competing!
I'm site based! And have never left an mdf edge like that!
Fantastic video as always! Love to hear your thoughts and opinions on methods and another great job done. I would probably put myself in between those two jobs and cost wise, probably to the lower end. But, like yourself, I would make a lot of it off site in my workshop. I also do the same method of making doors as you - but I cut the centre panel out myself with a plunge saw and use a rebating bit from the back to put the panel in and then glue and pin in place. I too do all my fillers and face frames the same as you and use a concealed hinge. I always give the choice to the customer - whether they want MDF or MRMDF. Things I don’t do - I don’t do detailed drawings, I don’t spray and I don’t use beech ply for the internals. But I do strongly recommend a painter that I trust to get the best possible finish with hand painting and tell customers the attention and care that MDF needs to get the best finish. Keep up the great work!
Great comparison! Very useful video.
Hi Alastair. Brilliant channel. Only discovered a couple of months ago but am hooked. Late response to some brilliant comments.
I’m a carpenter since leaving school. Now 53. Do a lot of fitted furniture wardrobes floating shelves. I love doing them & would like to just do them all the time.
I make & fit on site but am in the process of converting my garage into a home workshop. I feel that’s the way to go to achieve better results & make life easier all round.
I consider myself very fairly priced if anything underpriced. I’m finding I’ve not got a few jobs recently follow ons in a couple of cases where I’ve got a bit dearer due to increasing material costs.
I buy 50 sheets of 18mm mdf. I think it’s medite. I paid about £850 for these from magnets early 2021 by buying them in bulk. Now the same amount at current costs will be £1800. As it’s £36 a sheet now. Other thing I find is quite often once I’ve fitted my work , customers then paint what I’ve done to keep costs down & make a right lash up of it. Clearly doing no rubbing down in between coats especially on edges. Hence getting a really poor finish which to someone not knowing looks like that’s how I’ve machined it.
Hi Tony thanks for commenting and I'm glad you like the channel. I reckon that if you are fitting unpainted MDF furniture you are definitely attracting a very price sensitive customer base and it will be hard to break out of that until you offer more. It's tricky because the step up to offering painted work feels like a big one. But the other route is to offer melamine carcases and bought-in vinyl wrap doors. look at @barrettsfittedfurniture on instagram, or the jounrye that John Jones took from raw MDF - @jonesinteriors_sw - coincidentally he commented on this thread 3 years ago! Howeer you do your doors, moving over to melamine internals is a must. Apart from that, marketing is key, as I learned too late,.
Good information. I too find it is incredibly difficult to convey quality and craftsmanship in proposing work to a client. Recommendations and referees are invaluable. When you were explaining the reason for a gap between rail and stile it seemed as if the rail shrank where I feel you were attempting to explain the movement of the timber would be across the width and not the length (therefore the shrinkage in the stile would be responsible for any gap between the two). And in my first floating panel doors it was not allowing for enough space for the expansion of the solid timber "floating" panel across its width that caused the gap between the rail and stile! Cheers, David
DRMNZ hi David maybe I’ll do a video on wood movement one day... I’m not saying I’m the biggest expert on it but as Inunderstand it, shrinkage/expansion along the length of the fibres (grain) is almost negligible, but is more significant across (perpendicular to) the grain, as you found in your solid panel door. So what’s actually happening with any hairline crack that appears at the joints of 5 piece doors is usually the differential of the rail shrinking/expanding in width against the side of the stile that is not shrinking. So it’s not a separation movement but a sort of glancing sideways movement that causes a crack to show. Alternatively as you have suggested it could also be a solid panel expanding and forcing those joints open. Does that makes sense?
+DRMNZ
When trying to convey to clients standards of works and finish I always who them a sample of a products.
I have small tables, cabinets and so on done to different grades that I can show them and explain to them. I even have do that with designers and architects at times because it is can be very difficult in words if the potential client has never seen such an example.
It would be like trying to explain a Rolls Royce car to somebody who has only ever experienced a 1990s old Vauxhall car and has never seen anything like a Rolls Royce.
@@bighands69 great idea, showing the real thing is even better than a video!
Some great points made that customers should think about when choosing a maker as I’ve seen some many choose the cheapest then wish they hadn’t.
Good video Alistair I’d also argue some if your points. I don’t have a workshop either but get all my panels cut and edged by Cutwrights, all my doors are also made as 5 piece doors. I have seen some dodgy work out there produced in local workshops so I think it depends on the standards you work to. All my painting is done on site by a professional furniture painter and people assume his finish has been sprayed so it’s not all about having a workshop.
It is all about cost but his overall point does make sense.
MDF had a bad rap for quite a few years in the UK -- to my untrained eyes / ears -- but having very recently waded into the woodworking world and started making very rudimentary things with it, I can honestly say I'm very impressed with it's strength and flexibility in terms of its applications and uses. Sealing edges and preparing them for paint is a little extra work when going for aesthetics and even long-term durability, but I think it's worth the extra outlay in effort.
Jay K yeah it’s not a ‘bad’ material just needs to be used in the right way for the right purpose
Like the video. Think you handled the comparisons very well without putting the cheaper job down. I have worked on jobs where other people have done work and the customer is very happy with the finish. Quite
often after we have completed our work, it is only then that they notice the difference in finish between previous work and ours. This is no disrespect to whoever did the other work, the work was to a good standard and the customer was happy with it, it's just to highlight that the customer sometimes has no idea of the different quality in work until they see a comparison. At the end of the day, as long as when you're doing a job, the quality of work is in line with what the customer is paying and the customer is happy - then you have done an excellent job.
Think your video does a great job of comparing the quality differences you can expect between two similar jobs in different price ranges, this is always difficult to get across. Not all customers can afford or even want a high end product and there are markets for high end work right down to the most basic work. Providing companies don't promise better than they can deliver then there's work enough for all and happy customers - regardless of the quality.
alex mcneely thanks Alex I’m glad you thought it came across well. I often think, for years I was installing work with an ‘orange peel’ textured hand roller painted finish and all my customers were more than happy with everything but now that I do sprayed work I find the work I used to do poor quality. But I couldn’t have offered anything better at that stage of my business. You are right to say if the customer is happy and the price is right for them then it’s basically still a job well done.
Great video. It was good to see a comparison of others work. I make similar stuff for my own house as I renovate. I also know people who are winning work on price alone and wonder what their quality is like. I felt you went out of your way not to criticize the other job, but to me the items you pointed out (the slab doors, the hinges and the finish on that top) were not acceptable. The hinges are plain wrong. Whilst I could accept some things being done more easily and cheaply I would never accept that on my own amateur work. Your work on the other hand is superb and you clearly have high personal standards. Only found your channel recently but very interesting and I particularly enjoy the emphasis on the business aspects.
This channel is great. Really informative.
tom fox I’m so glad you think so, thank you!
Definitely worth taking all said into consideration when choosing a company for such projects. If you treasure details, aesthetics and class rather then bare functionality I would definitely choose your company 👍. Great videos, love them.
I have watched your videos for well over a week now and you have inspired me to do better!. currently i make bespoke projects on site and before i never battered an eyelid. i thought that battling painting and dust were all part of the norm when going into customers houses but i have a new goal, to get a workspace to pre build so no cutting and painting needs to take up the clients time and frustrations. Thank you for showing me a great method to approach fitted furniture, i usually build everything into the alcoves , utilising all of the space but building a box and hiding that in the alcove is better in terms of shelving and time. i look forward to wathcing more of your videos as my time on this planet progresses . thank you once again
That's really nice to hear that the channel has inspired you! That was one of my aims. You will definitely find the extra content over at www.buymeacoffee.com/freebird valuable. There's a preview on this instagram post of the alcove blueprints available to members: instagram.com/p/B4qKiopA2Hj/?
Lots of extra member only content too including a multipart video series covering a complex project from start to finish and covering more detail on the workshop preparation than in any of my public videos: instagram.com/p/B5TtHmPgxkW/?
Very helpful, thank you - to me as someone looking at making DIY fitted furniture (as even the lower budget version is too much at the moment!) so I can hopefully strive for a higher end finish. It won’t be your standard but will certainly be better than that warped door, furry end grain and split hinge fixings…
£250 for painting sounds very cheap?
Thanks for the vids, it's so interesting to see how other people work.
As a small manufacturer myself, I find pricing is always a pain, because obviously you want the work, but need to make a living and cover your costs.
I think the joiner who built the other unit might have realised that he hadn't made a great deal of profit by the time he'd bought and fitted the glass shelves etc..
in terms of the doors I mainly use the method of gluing 6mm strips onto a 12mm back panel and routing a v through the join, also routing the edges depending on the design.
Anyway, enjoy watching the Channel.
john parsons I’ve done the applied strips method on shaker doors too. In the end I felt it wasn’t that much easier than gluing and clamping up a 5 piece door - you have to either clamp the strips on or pin and fill them; then you have a poor edge to flatten off etc.
Freebird Interiors
I started using mitre bond a while back. It means I get an instant bond. I allow a tiny overhang on the strips and trim back with the router. The join is practically invisible and it means I'm not holding up space in my small workshop. If I had extra space I would definitely use your method, but needs must.
john parsons interesting. How much of the surface do you cover with the glue and do you use the activator spray? My current method is actually to outsource the door manufacture to a CNC manufacturer! There’s a 3 part series about how we get these made on the channel. And in due course we will be getting a CNC machine of our own and doing it in house.
Freebird Interiors
Hi.
A straight bead of glue along both edges, and a staggered bead in between.
I do use the activator. Do give an idea, I can get around 8 wardrobe size doors from 500ml/50ml activator and glue combination.
My standard door construction is a 12mm Medite back, with 6mm strips. Once the strips are glued on, and before I take it off the bench I run my v groove along the inside of the strips and through the vertical joint. Then across the inside of the rails taking care to stop at the stiles. The edges are then trimmed square or quarter rounded. Going to watch your outsourcing video. Problem for me is at the moment I can produce and fit roughly a bedroom a week, and I'm not sure I want to expand.
john parsons wouldn’t it be easier to run a bearing guided chamfering bit all around all the strips prior to assembly, then you’ve got your v groove joint ready made?
So this is a problem I’m dealing with , after many years being someone who can do this for you as a “side job” I now want to take it on full time. I have space to build off site and spray units , but the difference in prices to charge baffles me , thanks for sharing your thoughts Alistair it make more sense. I think I under estimate actually what I do 😳
Your work is exceptional by the way , well done my friend 👍
Great video, really shows the difference in quality. I think you could have also added that the national companies aren’t as able to bespoke it as much as they have set sizes to work with often.
MrBishbashbosh2012 good point. I think I might actually have talked about that in a bit of footage I trimmed to avoid the video being too long! The big national companies (I’m thinking Sharps, Hammond etc, not the higher end Neville Johnson etc) seem to price around my current prices (or usually starting higher, then coming back down with a ‘sale’ offer), but as you say they are not really so bespoke, using fixed door widths and very limited range of drawer runner lengths etc.
Hi
What you need to do is take this video to your customers, and show them the quality of work they will pay for , I am sure they can see that they would get a very good job with your company. Keep the vids coming please.
Stuart
stuart williams that’s the plan, this one is aimed more at customers. I’m about to get a new website online which will have certain videos like this one embedded in it 👍
Excellent video. We've learn a lot. Thank you.
Great, thanks for commenting!
Very helpful - thank you!
Good video, explaining higher costs to customers is difficult.
I get my boards cut, edged and primed, then joint everything with Dominos and biscuits in my small home workshop. I then take everything to site and assemble. I use Medite boards, Blum hardware and good fittings throughout, everything is finished to a really high standard. I don’t make a lot of money out of this but I’m still getting potential clients telling me they have had a quote for half the price. What I really want to tell them at this stage is that anything that cheap is going to be a total piece of shit. Obviously that’s not quite the approach to take with a client, so I try to explain things in a similar way to you and avoid criticising other tradesmen.
But one day I will snap and start ranting!
Very well done , you didn't knock the previous guy , just a straight comparison.
Richard Dempsey thanks 👍
I used those hidden hinges before. I did exactly the same as that guy did with the edge grain screws. It split because I joined two boards together. This was when I first started. Thankfully now I use concealed hinges.
If the customer wants traditional style butt hinges on MDF doors, you can glue a strip of solid timber to the edge of the door, then glue your 6mm panels ontop to hide the join. The timber allows you to securely fix butt hinges to the door. If you sand and seal all the edges this can work well.
Ok yes I see. I do prefer the ease and controlled motion of concealed hinges though!
Can't help think that a couple of hours with some p38, a sander, and a high density roller full of paint would bring that budget build far closer in terms of finish qualty, Add some budget euro hinges and you're even closer. Very interesting comparison though.
I’d make the cabinets you did as a sole trader for £2800 and £400 to paint. I’d finish the job in 2 days from start to finish for the joinery work and my painter can paint the job in a day. I use a third party to cut the materials for a small fee. Melamine all internal carcasses and completely edged. I’d use paintable edging on any rough mdf edge that includes doors and shelves to make the painters life easier, the same filler panels and hinges. I just can’t understand how you can turn a decent profit sending detailed drawings, spraying(which would take 2-3days in itself), carefully delivering etc...
And make £2k once everyone is paid.
+lovey dovey
As a sole trader I assume you are working mostly by yourself?
Scale and production is what defines costings in terms of your actually input cost and sales price.
If you tomorrow decided to make a Cola drink you would never be able to get to the price and quality level of the bigger companies.
You either would have to focus on quality which will mean higher cost or decide to focus on lower cost which will then affect the quality.
If you were to invest in productivity such as using certain machines you will find that you can impact price but you need then focus investment.
Most businesses that fail do not do so because of lack of sales it occurs because of poor finances.
Fair comparison however there are some small carpenter joiners who will make the units in their workshop who use moisture resistant MDF and spray paint them and would use the recessed kitchen type hinges and hardware
Yes absolutely true, I didn’t mean to be too black and white about differences, there is plenty of quality work from one man setups, in fact some of the best.
I have been working on new builds since I became a carpenter. I recently quit my job doing that as the original spark and enthusiasm for carpentry that I used to have was completely gone. I am trying to get into doing this kind of work and I've only just started out so I'm not going to be able to offer the pre sprayed finish that I would like. But I am a perfectionist so I wouldn't be able to live with myself putting out work like the lower end units you have shown here. I know I can offer a much higher standard to that even if i'm building it all on sight. Does anyone build on site but then sand fill and seal all the edges for the customer? Then they have a much better surface to work with when they paint it themselves? Or does anyone build on site and then also paint it on site as part of the service? I'm just looking for tips as i'm just starting but I also want to put out the best product I possibly can.
Yes that's definitely a valid approach - browse the comments, there are high quality workers that take this approach.
I been on both sides as a carpenter/ joiner. Learned my trade through apprenticeship and would always set up on site but covered all aspects from the roof to the kitchen. Would make units on site. But the more customers wanted furniture I moved to a workshop and changed my entire set up. For a shaker door I normally use a rail and stile method so would be interested to see the method you used on yours. Switched over to sayerlack paint and huge difference in finish.
sicpac66 what paint were you using before?
@@Alastair_Freebird same as you I think. Acrylic primer and diamond White top coats. Saw your video and have movac down the road from me so tried them out. Massive difference. Much better finish using airless Graco fine finish
You were being really generous with that other guys work, the fit and finish on it is appalling even for a built on site job. Slab doors shouldn't warp like that as long as the MDF is decent quality, I'm guessing the stuff used there was absolutely cheapest available and then not moisture sealed after construction to stabilise it before painting. It all looked a bit of a cowboy job to be honest.
Sanding inbetween being most important! Good brushes and rolllers too!
I would suggest that the biggest issue is how does the tradesperson convey to the potential client that his/her work will be worth the not inconsiderable extra cost. In the case shown, the client would probably be aware that the older units are beginning to show the signs of the lower costs - the painted edges, the splitting from screws. This case shows the benefit of getting recommendations from an independent third party ( interior designer in this instance).
I agree that, for many people, the difference of around £3000 would entice them to have a site operation of about a week as against to the installation of the newer units of 3 days. So, I don’t think that extra 4 (?) days would be the critical factor in getting your workshop built product accepted.
I also agree that having a workshop is not, in itself, the guarantee of higher quality. It should be because of the higher investment in equipment and time, but we have all probably seen crap from a workshop and excellence from an on-site cabinet maker.
So, how do you convince someone to pay a lot more for higher quality?
- does the client have the potential extra £3000? If not, walk away
- does the client want better quality? Perhaps they are renting or about to sell the property. Again, walk away
- controversially perhaps, are there signs in the house that the client values high quality? Ornaments, pictures, furniture etc.
- that third party referral has almost done the sales job for you - but can you network with local influencers (what a horrible phrase) to get recommendations
- get the client to your workshop if you can so that they can see the quality - and not just be told about it
- have a library of samples (doors, hinges, edges, mouldings etc.) unpainted and painted, so that the client can make an informed decision
- present yourself appropriately to the client ; don’t come over as a salesman when meeting the client but don’t go to the other extreme. Dress smartly, but not expensively; take your shoes off when going into the house; explain how yours is a family business - it’s success has come through quality and family values; don’t disparage other work on display - even if the client does; just say that every quality has its price and it’s place - our work is designed to last and last - for which there has to be a cost.
That list is clearly not exhaustive - or necessarily totally appropriate as I’m not in the business and so don’t understand it’s nuances. However, I’ve been a (serious) amateur woodworker for over 40 years and, before retirement, had my own business employing around 40 people. I do actually do some consulting work for a couple of other businesses - but these are friends and I don’t expect payment.
Excellent points!
Great video, very fair and well broken down content.
Glad you think so, thanks
@@Alastair_Freebird If its OK with you Alistair I'd like to share this video on my shop page. 😊
Hi Karl thanks for asking, this is a question that has come up before and I’ve obviously laid myself open to it by sharing so much publicly. I’m not necessarily against it but I’m a bit sensitive after a web designer completely stole a whole page of my website for another joiner, text, job photos and pricing! I need to keep some semblance of intellectual propert on my output. But that said, it’s me in the video so if you want to reshare it and it helps you somehow I don’t see any harm in that!
@@Alastair_Freebird hey no worries Alistair, it's a really good breakdown of why you would pay more and how to make a informed decision. I won't share it though, but if anyone asks why fitted furniture cost so much I'll point them to your video 😊 keep up the good work mate, it's definitely inspiring to people like myself who are embarking on a similar journey. 😊
Hi, to paint a unit like that i would say a grand, i would probably fall inbetween the two prices that where stated (london) my products are always evolving, atm zinnser 123 plus, then crown undercoat \ primer then crown satin, crown because i have built up a good relationship with my crown shop, tou pret fillers in the early coats ,
Hi Alastair, I’m making a floor to ceiling display cabinet, 25 mm MDF top and bottom with hardwood corner posts, it has to be finished in black, I’ve rolled on white acrylic undercoat, rubbed down with 180 grit and re applied a second coat, will rub that down with 220, I need to start top coats soon, I need to put a top quality finish on in black, what paint do you recommend to use on the Leland acrylic undercoat ? Do I roll it and brush it on with a tin of paint or buy spray cans ? I’m not set up yet with my spray gun and compressor. Any help could be good 👍
Hi Graeme, sorry I took so long to see this and reply, perhaps I'm too late. Black paint can be a nightmare!!! I'd be wary of spray cans... might be incompatibilty with the base coat. Safest to use a compatible Leyland or Johnstones product - I'd get advice from a Johnstone's decorator centre.
@@Alastair_Freebird Hi , thanks for replying, yes I’ve dumped the spray can idea, dug out my compressor and gravity feed gun, it’s a white acrylic undercoat (leyland) would it be ok to use No nonsense water based gloss from a spray gun, also would you suggest watering it down ?
@@graemeeasterbrook4931 Honestly, the only thing I can wholeheartedly recommend is the Sayerlack AT99 paint we now use, preferably over their compatible undercoat. But have you seen this old video talking about our transition from the sorts of decorators paints you are discussing toward better spray paint? ua-cam.com/video/QjdIoW0rD3o/v-deo.html
Thank you for this explanation!
Sadiq Akbar-Basha you’re welcome!
Hi could you tell me the process of painting the units please and what products you used and would recommend for mdf/mrmdf.
Thanks Aaron.
aaron coughlan info on paints we use and previously used here: ua-cam.com/video/QjdIoW0rD3o/v-deo.html
Detailed info on how we prepare and paint mdf edges will feature in the second instalment of the ‘fitted furniture masterclass’ series which is currently going out to monthly supporters only. It’s only the price of a cup of coffee per month to support the channel that way: www.buymeacoffee.com/freebird
Very interesting/informative video ! Subscribed!
asztapaszta9 thank you, I’m glad you think so!
2k seems low for a week of work. After materials and expenses, the joiner probably made under 1k. Were the boxes made of particle board vs the plywood you used?
a942687032679840126 yes I wonder if he felt he underpriced the job in the end. His internals were MDF.
It depends on how hardworking the joiner in question was. I know people who will put in a 60 hour week but only really come out with a 40 hour pay but they are in real demand as their products are of a good quality. They have lasted through ups and downs that sank many competitors.
Nice measured comparison, you aren't coming accross like you're taking jabs at a jobbing joiner at all. I'm workshop based like yourself - wouldn't have it any other way!
I’m relieved it doesn’t come across as having a dig, thank you
Onsite construction can be just as good. It really all depends on cost. How much the client is willing to pay for the level of finish.
I can produce cabinets on site that are just as good as off site but they are going to cost more because they require more work and maybe different materials as well.
My business once did restoration and rebuild work and we choice specifically to do it onsite so every detail could be worked their and then but that costs a lot of money to do.
Love your videos and your work. However at just over 3 minutes in I feel I have to stop the video and disagree with some of the things you are saying.
I do a lot of bespoke work myself and am not lucky enough to have a workshop. Living in London it’s not cost effective for my company at this stage. However, comparing these two jobs is fair, but, not a fair comparison to compare the on site work to all who work on site only. For example, I survey my jobs to the millimetre, use sketch up and produce a cut list from that. I then get my supplier (medite MR boards) to cut everything to size.
I take this to site and unload all my festool gear including extraction and MFT (basically a portable workshop) and proceed to fit. My doors are always made up by dominos with 18mm stiles and rails and a 6mm centre sat in a rebate, clamped on site with 10 minute glue. Once I am done I then prep for finish. I then finish myself and spray in situ using HVLP Fuji spray q4 system with tikurilla paint. Everything is masked off and feel my level of finish is pretty comparable to yours although I expect it would be just that little better if I had that workshop. My price would be around 2/3's 3/4 of what you charge as a reference.
My point is, not all joiners/Carpenter, whether mobile or from a workshop have the same standards. Just felt I had to get that out there.
Keep up the great work.
Best wishes
Good point, however would you charge 2000 for this job? I think the joiner vastly underpriced in this instance. It sounds like you have invested in your site setup considerably more than some.
jason child I’m glad for your input. What I said was oversimplified. Didn’t mean to tar anyone with the wrong brush. Thanks for saying it in respectful way 👍
@@jtrent90 'It sounds like you have invested in your site setup considerably more than some' exactly my point. And I'm sure some workshops have better setups and some probably worse than mine.
Would I charge £2000? No, I would be charging much more. But then, I would be supplying a better standard of finish in my opinion. The old saying goes, you get what you pay for. I wouldn't want to criticise anybody's work but the flush hinges screwed directly to the side of the MDF would suggest to me that this joiner/carpenter is fairly inexperienced and priced up on what they thought was a good standard and rate for them personally. We have all underpriced work, doesn't mean you cut corners. You win some and you lose some....
@@Alastair_Freebird No offence taken, love your work and your videos. My point was a good tradesman can still get great results with the right amount of care and investment into their craft. If you know any cheap workshops going in South London.....😂
The 'other' units would have been vastly improved (& still could be!) with decent decoration. That was awful! However the thinner materials used certainly make for a much poorer quality product. Nice work Alastair. I always work on the adage that the in years to come the quality is remembered & not the price!
I think that is the right way to think about it!
Alistair, Hi....with your waterbased paint you use which I believe is a single pack product (no catalyst added)..... do you have any issue with grain raising and swollen fibers on your MDF?.....as opposed to a pre-cat, AC or PU alternative?
Sharp Edge Woodworking you may be interested that the waterbased product we use does actually have the ability to be used as a 2 pack product: ua-cam.com/video/L-__eh0WuCE/v-deo.html
We have only ever used waterbased paints, to be honest I would love to get experience with the other types of paint but our workshop location next to a residential garden means we need to stick with waterbased. The Movac primer we use is designed to minimise grain raising in MDF, all the more so if you use the additive (though we actually don’t use it since we hardly noticed any difference) but yes there is some grain raising and lots of demobbing is needed. But this primer sands back very easily and very smooth and after the first coat and denib it’s all fairly flat. It’s also about the choice of MDF - we find Medite MR much better for surface finish compared to for example a kronospan board that seemed to raise a lot of big flecks on the surface when painted.
@@Alastair_Freebird Thanks for that reply Alistair.... Im mainly using Kronospan as this is what my merchant keeps on stock... though I think they can provide Medite as Lawkris are their supplier.... it just means I'd have to order it in advance rather then just being able to rock up and get what I need on the day.... It may be worth a try though, as I agree, I'm fining I do get some large swelling fibres in the Kronospan.... at least with the Leyland paints I'm spraying.
@7:09 looks like the cabinet frame is plywood. What's the reason for that? Why not mdf or particleboard?
MySchizo Buddy we decide one day it looked better but also holds the screws better for the hinges. Had a job where the screws worked loose on the cheaper brown mdf.
Birch ply or just regular?
Good video and you can defo see the difference in the finish. I know ur shop is home based was wondering do you get complaints from neighbours about noise. Ive set my workshop up and sound proofed and insulated and will be working from home next year
I think we are fortunate with understanding neighbours but also the distance from the noise making areas of the workshop is fairly far from the houses and we are careful to only work reasonable hours (8:30 to 5pm or occasional 6pm mon to fri only and no weekends). We are desperate to relocate and separate business from home life however this business is our only source of household income so all our eggs are in one basket and at present the figures just don’t seem to stack up to take on the extra overheads of a rented premises. But we are soon going to get a CNC machine which I think will be the key to producing work more profitably in-house and then when that’s all running smoothly we will relocate.
Thanks for the detailed response looking forward to seeing the cnc videos and good points made about the neighbors
Hi Alistair great video I'm interested to know whether you had to inform the customer on the price difference or if they liked your work and its was fairly guaranteed ?
Hi Ben thanks, I quoted on the job and won it at that price, unaware of the price previously paid for the other work that had been done, and customer didn't query my price. I'd been recommended to the customer by an interior designer, I assume she understood already that we would do higher quality work.
For a hundred pounds or so of extra cost the £1,800 furniture could have been made to be just as good as the more expensive, workshop based product in my opinion. At £1,900 such a project would be a very good price indeed! I've been working as a self employed joiner making furniture for around fifteen years so I do have experience to back me up. I'm a 'one man band' that does have a workshop
One of the main sticking points would be matching the sprayed finish’s. The repeated denibbing between coats, the controlled environment of a spray booth, and the ability to spray parts separately laid flat would be very hard to replicate on site!
Certainly shows you get what you pay for. Very interesting
17:09 hit pause left hand door mitre done properly. Right hand door mitre out of alignment. I’m no carpenter!
Paul Rossiter the time stamp must be wrong but I don’t doubt that you’re right, I can’t claim that we’re perfect in every way 😂 but I do know that Brady always takes care to sand off any slight splintering or fluff on the mitre cuts as seen on the other project (actually there shouldn’t be any splintering anyway of cut properly). Possibly there is a slight stop from a slight variation in the ogee profile - we have been getting this issue even within the same batch of mouldings from the same supplier that we always use. Have you got the actual time stamp you saw it at?
Sorry I read the wrong time, time was 5.38. Check either side of the door knobs.
I was all prepared to say it’s a fair cop as I’m sure sometimes things are a little less than perfect but in truth what I think your seeing there is a difference in how the light is casting over the joints - landing evenly across the left one but picking out the opposing faces of the mitre in light and shade on the right one. But I am only checking on the phone not a big screen!
Lovely project, workshops always better. 5:39 your miter was a bit off square tho, moulding didn’t line up. Spotted and had to say 😂 just don’t ever look at my work ok.
Where are you ?
Sheffield, UK
How many laps back and forth between rooms did you have to do to make this video? 😂 Hope you got it all in one take!
Antonia Lister not quite one take but not far off!!
Suprised the other chap didn't just glue an edge on those rough edges, would have had a perfectly smooth surface to then paint.
Ps, 2 coats of primer, 3 of under coat, 3 top coat, minimum, sand and fine fill inbetween!
Matthew Smith very impressive painting process! What products do you use, what application method, and what roughly would you be charging to paint a project like the £2k one in the video?
1800£ unbelievable. May be it was 20 years ago
No doubt it's a tidy job...3x better hmmm - things the joiner could have done within budget to improve massivley says no to me..clean up the edges etc.
I'm a site building chippy and that unit was as rough as they come!!? Shame on that person leaving the finish like that!
Gives the rest of us who take pride in their work a bad name.
Judging by this video I should of pursued the fitted furniture, and I should of also charged a lot more for the job I did 🤦♂️ I would of been ashamed with those edges 😮 ahh well nevermind
That 2k job was poor but you can’t ‘‘tis a one man band, we can have workshops aswell and have a high end finish. As for you 5k looks a tasty finish but it’s very basic Cabinetry and design for that price.
Brian Finnerty I oversimplified some comparisons, see comments below. And agreed there is plenty of better work out there than ours too!
👍
There isn’t 3 k difference between the two jobs
From which point of view - perceived value in the eyes of the customer, or the different business overhead and production costs? In truth there are more factors than those in pricing. Neville Johnson can charge £7k for a pair of alcove cabinets where I would charge less than £3k. The quality is no better (NJ staff member told me it’s probably slightly worse). Certain customers will still choose the £7k for the brand association.
8 cowboys disliked this video.
Still can't justify £5k though
From what point of view?
The 1800 pounds one looks absolutely crappy.
But you wouldn't know from an overall photo though would you?
Freebird Interiors a photo is just a photo. I do some work for a manufacturer of bespoke furniture also.
@@johnschotz1614 I mean I agree with you, I just think it's interesting how different things can look close up compared to first impressions!
Freebird Interiors your absolutely correct. The 1800 pounds one has a very low quality
Cant stand people who knock other people work... than on the next hand your telling people not to join mdf because it wharps .... than a few months later your Irish mate in hes joinery is doing the same thing so dont think you know what your talking about... as a Chippy who has worked for all the high end shops and homes I think your wrong mate ...please give up your day job
Did you watch the whole video? I’m trying to understand what you’re saying and what it refers to.
Why build furnitures from "shit" (MDF) which is painted after building it? Furnitures from "wood" you can build with boardr made from real wood. Not from glue with saw dust. MDF for furnitures is not worth the work and time you spend for working with. 5.000 Pound for scrap with paint!
palereinhold I had similar questions before I started trying to make a living from woodworking so I understand where you’re coming from. Are you interested in detailed answers? Happy to give them if you want.
@@Alastair_Freebird Hello back to the UK ;-)
I think that's the difference between Germany and the peoples in the UK. In Germany we buy furnitures in a store. These are made from 16 or 19 mm chipboard and veneered. The hinges are "European style". You are making furnitures from MDF, painting it and they have horrible edges. Why so much of work for this result? "We" (in Germany) use MDF for workplace interieur... I think it's lost time to work with these materials and the result is poor.
Excuse my bad english - it's a long time ago, that i visited the UK (Sheffield).
I'm working with wood in my small shop (only 4 sm), but for my Livingroom i would never make such things.
Regards and thank you for reading!
I’d love to do more solid wood work. But for white painted work consider this: at about £5k for this sort of work I am making a very modest living. It’s still very time consuming. If I offer solid wood, the most cost effective option would be radiata pine (knot free, paints well) but this is softer than MR MDF so less durable. Next option would be tulipwood, but this is no harder than the MR MDF. Top end option for solid wood for painting would be hard maple. But this would be hugely more expensive. I mean many times the cost in materials, but more than doubling the labour cost. And what would be the benefit? I mean, ok, to a customer who has £10k plus to spend yes it is better and I would prefer it myself, but it’s hard to justify for most customers. Also, in some respects it is not even a better material for this purpose. It could not be used for back panels. Even the deep countertops may be prone to cracking due to natural tendency of solid wood to shrink and expand. These are just some of the reason why most joiners use moisture resistant mdf for spray painted work like this - stability, hardness, smoothness of finish, and the best value material with those benefits.
Can see firing on your job on this video. I can also see badly finished mitres on your doors. Also why can’t a joiner working on his own be vat registered? Remember a video you recently uploaded that you’d gone back to that had opened up in all the joints. It’s the easiest job in the world to pick bad points on other people’s work.
Rothjon hi I was trying to take a measured view and not meaning to say I think our work is ‘perfect’ however I suppose I couldn’t help promoting our approach! Part of my intention was to say that there will probably be certain compromises at a lower price point but that’s not necessarily ‘bad’, the customer just needs to be informed and know the sorts of things they should check with a cheaper provider to be sure what they’re getting. I was expecting a degree of controversy about things I said and I welcome corrections or other viewpoints. I couldn’t afford my own prices if I was commissioning fitted furniture as a customer so I have no snobbery about the costs involved. I’m sure there are joiners working on their own who are VAT registered but to be turning over work above the VAT threshold (£85,000) without the overheads of staff etc suggests a level of earnings that would demand the sort of quality I am talking about from the mid to higher level providers. My categorisation was imperfect, apologies for any annoyance it may have caused 👍
Also what is firing? Or is it furring?
Freebird Interiors no need to apologise. I came to this channel for clarification of the kind of work you do. Would your middle to high end work have a showroom in Tinsley? Sorry for my spelling mistake I didn’t get the opportunity to go to a grammar school, had to settle for Brinsworth comprehensive
Rothjon it feels a bit like you’re taking a dig at me here 😉 but you’re free to do so, it’s the risk I take putting this stuff out there! I honestly didn’t know if firing might be a painters term (I have no prior industry experience in painting) or I was guessing maybe you meant furring, I didn’t at all mean to sound ‘off’ about it. I don’t have any big agenda to big myself up here, or if I ever do I think I can cope with being brought down to size in a plain speaking way! At the moment it’s hard to imagine having a showroom, it also seems unnecessary. I think it makes sense for kitchen designers where the job values and margins are higher, however even then a lot of kitchen showrooms seem to be closing lately. In my experience it’s very hard to turn a genuine profit in this line of work. I think a lot of smart tradesmen are doing so by keeping it small and simple. Keeping overheads low gives you freedom and flexibility. Taking on more is tempting but it demands more and more of you before you see any real gain. There are all different approaches and space in the market for everyone, it’s not a matter of better or worse. The people who go for the real prestige positions in the market probably pay a high toll in terms of risk, stress and life balance.
Freebird Interiors I’m not taking a dig in any way. Promoting your business on your channel is a good thing. Like I said picking fault with others work is easy, good work speaks for itself without the need to give criticism to others. Unless the job was your work prior to having a workshop? None of this is in malice.