Just to be clear, a jump buffer is active for 20 frames like a tech, but does not have an additional 20 frame downtime like a tech? So you can essentially spam jump to refresh the buffer?
It's really good to know the old idea of slamming the control stick left in right in tumble to get out of it faster was, well, partly true. I remember someone saying a few years ago that it was not true, but you have proven that it does remove the tumble status. Quite nifty to know!
Just some added info. In cases similar to the DamageFlyRoll animation like jumping immediately after a throw or after your own aerial, you can still buffer a jump by holding Up on joystick on the last 4 (or later) frames of hitstun. In comparison to using X and Y buttons, holding Up on joystick will be a 4 frame window to buffer the earliest jump while X/Y will be a 1 frame window buffer the earliest jump. In general, holding Up on joystick adds 3 more frames to the buffer window compared to X and Y.
xJin678 That’s true and something I should have mentioned. Still, it has the drawback of easily missing the maximum inward control stick input for the jump direction. That is read at the same time as the jump input, so if I’m not mistaken you can never get the same aerial jump forward momentum with stick jump as with button jump.
Melee Mechanics by Kadano I think both methods have its uses. If you wanted to jump out of a chaingrab, DamageFlyRoll animation, or survive a really low aerial (e.g. Falcon's dropzone on Yoshi's Story), then joystick Up would probably be the way to go since you're not worried about getting horizontal distance. Otherwise, X and Y should be used for every other situation for jump buffering.
I've noticed certain throws like fox's uthrow don't allow for jump buffering at uthrow upsmash kill %s (80-110%) in the ditto. Is that just me being bad or is it the cause where jump buffering just can't be done in this instance
Interesting the implementations of "smashing" versus "soft-usage" of the control stick in smash. Dashing vs walking. Smashing vs tilts. Exiting vs remaining in tumble-fall. Rolling vs shield tilt. Samus strong vs soft missles. I'd like to have an option for using soft uses easier like d-pad or something but idk.
smashboards.com/posts/9872129 If that’s too theoretical: the video number 2 in line will cover this phenomenon. It’s because of move staling, but quite a bit more complicated.
I just watched that video. So In theory, you can manipulate DI on his shine to get into fall every time? or is that only when he's on the ground? This is some crazy stuff
ClevelandClips I meant future video number 2 (A6). The next one will be “Knockdown, teching and advanced DI”, the one after that will be “(Jab) resets and zero gravity glitch”.
Since you have to be in KB > 80 (or grounded) to die off the top, does that mean you can save yourself with jumping if you're going to fly off top blast zone? By putting yourself in an animation that can't die off the top?
Knockback is a separate stat that is tracked regardless of animation. So you can jump above the blast zone without dying as long as your remaining KB is below 80. The animation you are in does not matter as long as it is an airborne one.
Do you know if this applies to PM, as well? I try to jump out of hitstun/knockback (damage*) and sometimes it doesn't work. I think it happens more from throws. I never have this issue in melee so I know there's a difference somewhere.
Quarter circle DI is the most feasible way to achieve two SDI outputs and will be covered soon. This video doesn’t have anything to do with it, though.
How does UpBing relate to knockback? would a marth(without jump) have "survived" with an UpB? (probably not, just wondering) And while it's awesome to know you live longer like this, using your jump that early usualy results in being edgeguarded :D Great Video nonetheless, i love Smash theory :)
Just to be clear, a jump buffer is active for 20 frames like a tech, but does not have an additional 20 frame downtime like a tech? So you can essentially spam jump to refresh the buffer?
Yes, and that’s what I recommend to do.
Getting out of tumble by smashing stick... How did I not know?
Daft Punk + SSBM, good good good !
It's really good to know the old idea of slamming the control stick left in right in tumble to get out of it faster was, well, partly true. I remember someone saying a few years ago that it was not true, but you have proven that it does remove the tumble status. Quite nifty to know!
Just some added info. In cases similar to the DamageFlyRoll animation like jumping immediately after a throw or after your own aerial, you can still buffer a jump by holding Up on joystick on the last 4 (or later) frames of hitstun. In comparison to using X and Y buttons, holding Up on joystick will be a 4 frame window to buffer the earliest jump while X/Y will be a 1 frame window buffer the earliest jump. In general, holding Up on joystick adds 3 more frames to the buffer window compared to X and Y.
xJin678 That’s true and something I should have mentioned. Still, it has the drawback of easily missing the maximum inward control stick input for the jump direction. That is read at the same time as the jump input, so if I’m not mistaken you can never get the same aerial jump forward momentum with stick jump as with button jump.
Melee Mechanics by Kadano I think both methods have its uses. If you wanted to jump out of a chaingrab, DamageFlyRoll animation, or survive a really low aerial (e.g. Falcon's dropzone on Yoshi's Story), then joystick Up would probably be the way to go since you're not worried about getting horizontal distance. Otherwise, X and Y should be used for every other situation for jump buffering.
Yeah, I agree with that.
Melee Mechanics by Kadano so as a general rule of thumb, x/y for survival di, up for combo di?
Yes.
Your channel is amazing man
That's gold, thank you.
I've noticed certain throws like fox's uthrow don't allow for jump buffering at uthrow upsmash kill %s (80-110%) in the ditto. Is that just me being bad or is it the cause where jump buffering just can't be done in this instance
Jump buffering can't be done off of throws I believe
Interesting the implementations of "smashing" versus "soft-usage" of the control stick in smash.
Dashing vs walking. Smashing vs tilts. Exiting vs remaining in tumble-fall. Rolling vs shield tilt. Samus strong vs soft missles.
I'd like to have an option for using soft uses easier like d-pad or something but idk.
This explains why characters sometimes gets into fall animation when I shine with Falco. But how is it determined? Move staleness or spacing?
smashboards.com/posts/9872129
If that’s too theoretical: the video number 2 in line will cover this phenomenon. It’s because of move staling, but quite a bit more complicated.
I just watched that video. So In theory, you can manipulate DI on his shine to get into fall every time? or is that only when he's on the ground? This is some crazy stuff
ClevelandClips I meant future video number 2 (A6). The next one will be “Knockdown, teching and advanced DI”, the one after that will be “(Jab) resets and zero gravity glitch”.
alright, looking forward to it
Melee Mechanics (Kadano) dat 6.00 damage tho
How do we know if an attack will cause the character to go into DamageFlyTop or DamageFlyRoll? Is it random?
Thaaaaanks Kandanoooo
helpful vid, thank you
will you be discussing meteor cancelling as well?
Can you buffer jump out of attack animations?
Since you have to be in KB > 80 (or grounded) to die off the top, does that mean you can save yourself with jumping if you're going to fly off top blast zone? By putting yourself in an animation that can't die off the top?
Knockback is a separate stat that is tracked regardless of animation. So you can jump above the blast zone without dying as long as your remaining KB is below 80. The animation you are in does not matter as long as it is an airborne one.
Do you know if this applies to PM, as well? I try to jump out of hitstun/knockback (damage*) and sometimes it doesn't work. I think it happens more from throws. I never have this issue in melee so I know there's a difference somewhere.
the 20 frame thing is not in PM, regular jump buffering is
So does that mean you can jump buffer a shine spike as Falcon?
Is this how japanese di, or quarter circle di works?
Quarter circle DI is the most feasible way to achieve two SDI outputs and will be covered soon. This video doesn’t have anything to do with it, though.
can you fastfall in tumble?
vincentchps3 yes.
How does UpBing relate to knockback? would a marth(without jump) have "survived" with an UpB? (probably not, just wondering)
And while it's awesome to know you live longer like this, using your jump that early usualy results in being edgeguarded :D
Great Video nonetheless, i love Smash theory :)
Annoying as hell music.
Do you have suggestions for future videos? I don’t have much background suited music.
Melee Mechanics (Kadano) Don't listen to him, I thought the music was perfect.
Melee Mechanics (Kadano) More daft punk the better
Rip song so good it got removed for copyright claims sadboys i ams