oh my god. This is the first time that sdi has been CLEARLY explained to me. Now I know that it is only in effect during the last frame of hitlag. thanks a lot
No, SDI could have been output on hitlag frame 2 and 3 as well, not only 4 like I did at 1:50. On frame 3, I input SDI to the right (as indicated by the change of the controller input display at 1:53), and it is output on frame 4. I could have input it on frame 1 (output on frame 2) or on frame 2 (output on frame 3) as well. These can even add up, which I will show in the followup video (Teching and advanced DI).
Wow this video helped me so much and far better than any other video ive seen, not saying its perfect for everybody but it definitly was for me! Thanks alot subscribed
“Tap directional influence” is a term exclusively used by brawlers for SDI. These videos are Melee only (though some stuff might apply to PM and Brawl as well) so I only care about Melee terms.
So if I were to both hold the C-stick and smash the control stick during hitlag, the control stick would give me SDI and the C-stick would give me ASDI (on the last frame of hitlag)?
so from what i understand: -SDI can be input by smashing the control stick a direction on frame 1 of hitlag until the second to last frame of hitlag, at which point it becomes ASDI -ASDI is input by holding either control stick or c-stick a direction on second to last frame of hitlag, c-stick taking priority over control stick -TDI/DI/Survival+ComboDI is also read on second to last frame of hitlag, and performed by holding a direction with control stick during that time also, will your next video (Teching and advanced DI) go over shield-SDI? that would be very helpful
In Smash Bros 3DS, would SDI'ing your control stick diagonally top left, then straight up, then diagonally top right repeatedly work? I'm wondering this since the 3DS doesn't have a Gamecube-like control stick and therefore doesn't have *corners*, per say.
Does this all apply to attacks on shield too, or is there a different formula for calculating hit lag on shield? Also if anyone has any resources on general shield mechanics that would also be appreciated (currently looking into calculating shield advantage and various forms of shield DI).
+Arashi Kariudo Yes. When you attack someone's shield, they go into shieldstun (GuardSetOff) which AFAIK is calculated in precisely the same way as hitlag.
Any tip on SDI for getting out of jab spamming? Melee CPU sure loves doing it, but when I jab combo, they always SDI the first or second hit. If I'm lucky I connect all three hits.
Regarding the illustration at 3:24, is it the perpendicular distance/displacement rather than the relative angle that determines TDI? The ikneedata calculator seems to indicate that this is the case. I'm assuming the formula is something along the lines of new_angle := (old_angle + 18 * perp_disp / max_perp_dist) mod 360.
It is based on perpendicular distance, however beyond the software thresholds for maximum input strength, different hardware angles will have the respective dimension scaled down from the angle. So holding a hardware offset of, say, 20% from the base knockback axis with near-maximum shift along the axis from neutral causes considerably less total trajectory DI affect than the same 20% hardware offset near the center of the base knockback axis. Sycorax made a great writeup that explains this more in-detail than I did here: smashboards.com/threads/the-specifics-of-trajectory-di.437171/ And yes, hitlag is calculated from post-staling.
This video is amazing; though I have one important question which I can't seem to find an answer to (as of now): Is there a required displacement in axis values which must occur in order for SDI to take affect? For instance, with quarter circle SDI, I would think that the game not only requires that you change the axis position to keep you from just holding a direction and getting an SDI input buffered for every frame of hitlag, but that it also requires a _significant_ change in value such that very slight movements wouldn't also trigger SDI inputs. That said, if that _IS_ the case, what is the minimum displacement in axis position required to achieve an additional consecutive SDI input?
If you don't input any trajectory di on the last frame of hitlag, can you at any point during the hitstun start to di at an angle by inputting it late? So if I get hit by a falcon knee and I don't input survival DI until after the hitlag is over, does it do anything?
One question: So in the last segment of this video, you clearly showed that ASDI and "regular" DI can be buffered. I assume this can not be done with smash DI, that the game requires a change from one direction to another *during* hitstun? Or will a buffered directional input do "one SDI"? Great video as usual. I would love to start helping with this stuff, but my PC can't record dolphin at 60FPS.
***** yeah, that’s correct. (Unnecessary post, but I’ve read so many UA-cam comments that gave completely false information, so it might be nice for 1gunthix1 to know for sure that yours isn’t one of those. =))
at 2:48 didn't you mean to say that ASDI is read from the C-stick (control stick) and analog stick for your tragectory DI? or do the roles of c-stick and analog stick change when you use them both at the same time?
one question i've always had is, let's say you are the marth who got upsmashed and DI'd all the way to the top right corner ... at what point do you stop holding the survival DI and switch to DI towards the stage? do you make the switch suddenly? do you gradually ease back towards the stage? is there an optimal DI curve? and if you are at the top right corner ... if you jump would you die?
So if i'm understanding correctly, the frames of hitlag are added to the amount of frames the move would take to finish if it didn't hit someone? (As in theorhetically if a move took 30 frames to finish from start to end, and there were 10 frames of hitlag, the move would take a total of 40 frames to finish opposed to 30 if it didn't hit somoene). Also, concerning a move's IASA, if it hits would the new IASA frame just be whatever many frames of hitlag there is on top of the regular frame that the move could be interrupted if it did not hit? Hopefully that last quesiton made sense, was hard to word lol.
Hey kadano, thanks for the video :). I have this doubt that bugs me, someone told me that you couldn't ASDI and SDI to the same direction. Is that true? and if that is so, what are the best combination of directions/angles to avoid fox's UpAir?
Melee Mechanics I thought so, but I didn't quite get it. So if you are holding right on the control stick when Fox's uair begins, you'll only alter your trajectory slightly and still get hit by the second hit, but if you smash the stick from neutral to right immediately after recieving the first hit, you'll SDI out of the way and miss the meat of the attack?
***** It is during the hitlag of the first hit of fox's upair. So, you must smash di and asdi during the hitlag of fox's first hit of upair in whichever direction it is that will get you out of the second hit. Since the hitlag of the first hit of fox's upair is pretty short, and you can only sdi during the hitlag frames, the timing is pretty tight. Practice is the best way to get it.
I have a couple questions for you Kadano 1. is there no type of DI which is read on the last frame of hitlag? 2. if ASDI is OUTPUT on the last frame of hitlag before you enter knockback, then why is it that you can ASDI down and tech off the ground, but not SDI down and tech off the ground?
The frame counting notation I used back then was a bit different than how many people use it. When I wrote "On the last frame of hitlag, ASDI is output", I meant that "if you hold a direction while the last frame of hitlag is being drawn to the screen and then press frame advance, you have ASDI output right afterwards". The way I worded that was unintuitive and confusing, sorry about that. I chose it because it was the most useful way to look at it from a frame advance perspective - if the frame the game is currently frozen at is [last frame of hitlag], and you hold a direction on that frame, it takes effect as soon as you hit the frame advance button. It probably would have been better to write "after the last frame of hitlag, ASDI is output".
The TDI and ASDI check is performed directly after the last frame of hitlag has been output to the GPU and directly before the first frame of hitstun is calculated in the CPU.
So with normal trajectory DI, what frames do you have to input a direction on the control stick? Is it only during the last frame of hitlag or can it be inputted during hitstun as well?
At 0:30 should it actually read "For projectile attacks, only the target suffers hitlag" since you prove right after that special attacks (such as Shine from your example) do have hitlag for the attacker?
There are specials that aren’t projectiles, but still don’t cause attacker hitlag. Sheik’s up-B and spacies’ side-B, for example. You are right in that it’s worded in a misleading way right now-I should have gone for “certain special attacks” instead.
Melee Mechanics by Kadano Things like Falcon kick do have attacker hitlag, that's why they cover less distance when they connect right? what about Up-b and other grabs?
Is there a window for normal DI after the hit where there's a more significant impact, or is just an "as soon as possible" thing that takes effect throughout the entire knockback?
SkaterLauro if you are gonna tech the floor (Amsah tech), you want to ASDI down and DI as low as possible. SDI is useless in this case since you are generally already on the ground during hitlag. generally, since they are calculated at different times, if you SDI something, you also ASDI it. they stack on top of each other, so to escape fox's upair, for instance, you want to do both.
Oh, Alright, I've been slowly going by your videos 1 by 1 till I had full understanding, and plus I have school so I haven't got there yet but thank you :D Keep making any videos you can?
I'm not sure how much more you know about DI but if you do know more you should go more in-depth on SDI and show more examples of situations it will get you out of like you showed with the fox upsmash SDI. You also didn't make it clear when showing survival DI what the DI'ing marth that lived actually input.
Whoops, I watched the videos in the wrong order and missed where you explained trajectory DI. I guess that's what I get for watching videos during meetings at work.
See 2:35. So holding it at that point / frame is required. It does not matter for how long you’ve been holding it, so both prior to the move and at the moment of impact work.
Melee Mechanics by Kadano Thank you. While we're on the subject of advanced techs, how many frames do you have to properly input L upon touching the ground to l cancel?
Excellent video, thank you for showing how "Combo DI" isn't always fail-proof for escaping combos.
and highlighting that the real beauty of it all is mixing it up
oh my god.
This is the first time that sdi has been CLEARLY explained to me. Now I know that it is only in effect during the last frame of hitlag.
thanks a lot
No, SDI could have been output on hitlag frame 2 and 3 as well, not only 4 like I did at 1:50. On frame 3, I input SDI to the right (as indicated by the change of the controller input display at 1:53), and it is output on frame 4. I could have input it on frame 1 (output on frame 2) or on frame 2 (output on frame 3) as well. These can even add up, which I will show in the followup video (Teching and advanced DI).
newbie, you're mixing up ASDI and SDI.
mikecmtong that's a typo, my bad.
I was almost really confused by melee mechanics' reply lol
Finally a clear, concise reference for all things DI. Awesome.
i learned more about melee DI in this 5 minute video than i have in the years that i've been playing casually since the doc came out
this song is actually pretty chill.
I legitimately learned from this, and the music isn't fucking obnoxious. Kudos to you, sir. You've made a fantastic tutorial
Excellent video. Most informative and clear DI resource I've seen.
thanks for this. your work is amazing! Please keep it up.
Wow this video helped me so much and far better than any other video ive seen, not saying its perfect for everybody but it definitly was for me! Thanks alot subscribed
Love what you're doing! Keep the videos coming!
great work dude. keep it up
SO HELPFUL
Literally fucking complex. This makes me feel like a casual again lol
Sick song and video very helpful
TDI is "tap directional influence" for me, which is not to be confused with Trajectory directional influence
“Tap directional influence” is a term exclusively used by brawlers for SDI. These videos are Melee only (though some stuff might apply to PM and Brawl as well) so I only care about Melee terms.
Very nice graphics God bless
This is so helpful!
Fantastic, though I would have liked to see SDI incorporated into the combo DI example.
I need to memorize this
So if I were to both hold the C-stick and smash the control stick during hitlag, the control stick would give me SDI and the C-stick would give me ASDI (on the last frame of hitlag)?
so from what i understand:
-SDI can be input by smashing the control stick a direction on frame 1 of hitlag until the second to last frame of hitlag, at which point it becomes ASDI
-ASDI is input by holding either control stick or c-stick a direction on second to last frame of hitlag, c-stick taking priority over control stick
-TDI/DI/Survival+ComboDI is also read on second to last frame of hitlag, and performed by holding a direction with control stick during that time
also, will your next video (Teching and advanced DI) go over shield-SDI? that would be very helpful
In Smash Bros 3DS, would SDI'ing your control stick diagonally top left, then straight up, then diagonally top right repeatedly work? I'm wondering this since the 3DS doesn't have a Gamecube-like control stick and therefore doesn't have *corners*, per say.
Does this all apply to attacks on shield too, or is there a different formula for calculating hit lag on shield? Also if anyone has any resources on general shield mechanics that would also be appreciated (currently looking into calculating shield advantage and various forms of shield DI).
+Arashi Kariudo Yes. When you attack someone's shield, they go into shieldstun (GuardSetOff) which AFAIK is calculated in precisely the same way as hitlag.
Any tip on SDI for getting out of jab spamming? Melee CPU sure loves doing it, but when I jab combo, they always SDI the first or second hit. If I'm lucky I connect all three hits.
crouch cancel
Is it possible to buffer ASDI in a direction using the C stick BEFORE getting in hitlag?
Regarding the illustration at 3:24, is it the perpendicular distance/displacement rather than the relative angle that determines TDI? The ikneedata calculator seems to indicate that this is the case. I'm assuming the formula is something along the lines of new_angle := (old_angle + 18 * perp_disp / max_perp_dist) mod 360.
Also, is "hitbubble damage" at 0:40 the base damage or after-calculation(s) damage (more to the point: Does stale-move negation affect hitlag?)?
It is based on perpendicular distance, however beyond the software thresholds for maximum input strength, different hardware angles will have the respective dimension scaled down from the angle. So holding a hardware offset of, say, 20% from the base knockback axis with near-maximum shift along the axis from neutral causes considerably less total trajectory DI affect than the same 20% hardware offset near the center of the base knockback axis.
Sycorax made a great writeup that explains this more in-detail than I did here: smashboards.com/threads/the-specifics-of-trajectory-di.437171/
And yes, hitlag is calculated from post-staling.
Nice video! Does this apply to every smash game after meele?
This video is amazing; though I have one important question which I can't seem to find an answer to (as of now):
Is there a required displacement in axis values which must occur in order for SDI to take affect? For instance, with quarter circle SDI, I would think that the game not only requires that you change the axis position to keep you from just holding a direction and getting an SDI input buffered for every frame of hitlag, but that it also requires a _significant_ change in value such that very slight movements wouldn't also trigger SDI inputs.
That said, if that _IS_ the case, what is the minimum displacement in axis position required to achieve an additional consecutive SDI input?
If you don't input any trajectory di on the last frame of hitlag, can you at any point during the hitstun start to di at an angle by inputting it late? So if I get hit by a falcon knee and I don't input survival DI until after the hitlag is over, does it do anything?
One question: So in the last segment of this video, you clearly showed that ASDI and "regular" DI can be buffered. I assume this can not be done with smash DI, that the game requires a change from one direction to another *during* hitstun? Or will a buffered directional input do "one SDI"?
Great video as usual. I would love to start helping with this stuff, but my PC can't record dolphin at 60FPS.
So for SDI I have to input at the frames before last, but for normal DI can I input even after the hit say if I'm already flying in the air?
No. Normal DI is decided based on your input on the last frame of hitlag. After hitlag ends you can't alter your trajectory.
***** yeah, that’s correct. (Unnecessary post, but I’ve read so many UA-cam comments that gave completely false information, so it might be nice for 1gunthix1 to know for sure that yours isn’t one of those. =))
Melee Mechanics (Kadano) Also if I get hit straight to the right would I DI upwards?
1gunthix1 Yes, but you never get hit straight to the right, it's almost always at an angle. Up and slightly left is probably your best bet.
Well thank you all very much, very helpful.
at 2:48 didn't you mean to say that ASDI is read from the C-stick (control stick) and analog stick for your tragectory DI? or do the roles of c-stick and analog stick change when you use them both at the same time?
one question i've always had is, let's say you are the marth who got upsmashed and DI'd all the way to the top right corner ... at what point do you stop holding the survival DI and switch to DI towards the stage? do you make the switch suddenly? do you gradually ease back towards the stage? is there an optimal DI curve? and if you are at the top right corner ... if you jump would you die?
So if i'm understanding correctly, the frames of hitlag are added to the amount of frames the move would take to finish if it didn't hit someone? (As in theorhetically if a move took 30 frames to finish from start to end, and there were 10 frames of hitlag, the move would take a total of 40 frames to finish opposed to 30 if it didn't hit somoene). Also, concerning a move's IASA, if it hits would the new IASA frame just be whatever many frames of hitlag there is on top of the regular frame that the move could be interrupted if it did not hit? Hopefully that last quesiton made sense, was hard to word lol.
+SnorlaxMTG Yes. During hitlag, the game's internal frame counter (which is the basis for IASA) freezes, as you can see at 3:48.
Should I DI fox's up smash horizontaly towards him are away from him?
+cool “stink” man why towards?
Hey kadano, thanks for the video :).
I have this doubt that bugs me, someone told me that you couldn't ASDI and SDI to the same direction. Is that true? and if that is so, what are the best combination of directions/angles to avoid fox's UpAir?
What is "smashing" the stick referring to?
Pushing it from neutral to the desired position very quickly.
Melee Mechanics I thought so, but I didn't quite get it. So if you are holding right on the control stick when Fox's uair begins, you'll only alter your trajectory slightly and still get hit by the second hit, but if you smash the stick from neutral to right immediately after recieving the first hit, you'll SDI out of the way and miss the meat of the attack?
ssb4smasher
Exactly.
Melee Mechanics Got it, thanks.
ssb4smasher arent you supposed to smash the stick WHILE the attack is connecting you? and not immediately after?
came here from lupe
Hey Kadano, when you demonstrated Marth getting out of Fox's Up-Air, did you use 1 sdi input?
What frame is Trajectory DI calculated/measured on? Is it on the last frame of hitlag that the game checks your Analog stick?
What I find hard is: when is the time to smash your control stick to get out of the 2nd hit of fox' upair?
***** It is during the hitlag of the first hit of fox's upair. So, you must smash di and asdi during the hitlag of fox's first hit of upair in whichever direction it is that will get you out of the second hit. Since the hitlag of the first hit of fox's upair is pretty short, and you can only sdi during the hitlag frames, the timing is pretty tight. Practice is the best way to get it.
So can you hold the C-stick before you get hit for ASDI and use the control stick to SDI as well?
yes
I have a couple questions for you Kadano
1. is there no type of DI which is read on the last frame of hitlag?
2. if ASDI is OUTPUT on the last frame of hitlag before you enter knockback, then why is it that you can ASDI down and tech off the ground, but not SDI down and tech off the ground?
The frame counting notation I used back then was a bit different than how many people use it. When I wrote "On the last frame of hitlag, ASDI is output", I meant that "if you hold a direction while the last frame of hitlag is being drawn to the screen and then press frame advance, you have ASDI output right afterwards".
The way I worded that was unintuitive and confusing, sorry about that. I chose it because it was the most useful way to look at it from a frame advance perspective - if the frame the game is currently frozen at is [last frame of hitlag], and you hold a direction on that frame, it takes effect as soon as you hit the frame advance button.
It probably would have been better to write "after the last frame of hitlag, ASDI is output".
The TDI and ASDI check is performed directly after the last frame of hitlag has been output to the GPU and directly before the first frame of hitstun is calculated in the CPU.
I see now man, thanks for clarifying.
So with normal trajectory DI, what frames do you have to input a direction on the control stick? Is it only during the last frame of hitlag or can it be inputted during hitstun as well?
+Brian Kane did you read the text at 2:38? Your question is implicitly answered there.
+Melee Mechanics by Kadano oops sorry. Thanks
At 0:30 should it actually read "For projectile attacks, only the target suffers hitlag" since you prove right after that special attacks (such as Shine from your example) do have hitlag for the attacker?
There are specials that aren’t projectiles, but still don’t cause attacker hitlag. Sheik’s up-B and spacies’ side-B, for example. You are right in that it’s worded in a misleading way right now-I should have gone for “certain special attacks” instead.
Melee Mechanics by Kadano Things like Falcon kick do have attacker hitlag, that's why they cover less distance when they connect right? what about Up-b and other grabs?
Does SDI reduce knockback, and if so by how much? Or does it *only* displace your character during the hit stun frames?
It only moves you around, knockback is not affected.
I see. Thanks!
Would C stick take priority if you try to Smash DI at the same time with it over control stick? (in theory?)
LivingLegendX21 it’s never mentioned in the video that you could SDI with C-stick, so no.
I was just curious, I think about these things, so thanks :D
So smash DI only works if you input the direction during hitstun correct? Holding it before the attack hits will only do ASDI?
Shadoninja During hitlag (= hitstop). Not during hitstun.
Melee Mechanics by Kadano But holding the direction prior to the moment of contact will not perform smash DI, correct?
yes.
Melee Mechanics by Kadano thanks!
Is there a window for normal DI after the hit where there's a more significant impact, or is just an "as soon as possible" thing that takes effect throughout the entire knockback?
+Thompson Ferguson The input at the one frame mentioned alone determines your entire flight path during hitstun.
+Melee Mechanics by Kadano Ohhh ok, I caught it that time. Thanks!
When would ASDI be more useful over regular smash DI?
SkaterLauro if you are gonna tech the floor (Amsah tech), you want to ASDI down and DI as low as possible. SDI is useless in this case since you are generally already on the ground during hitlag.
generally, since they are calculated at different times, if you SDI something, you also ASDI it. they stack on top of each other, so to escape fox's upair, for instance, you want to do both.
With smash DI, Is it good to and/or does it have any value to smash DI multiple times?
+LivingLegendX21 yeah, see the follow-up video on Advanced DI.
Oh, Alright, I've been slowly going by your videos 1 by 1 till I had full understanding, and plus I have school so I haven't got there yet but thank you :D Keep making any videos you can?
If you SDI a hit barely enough to take a stock away from the blast zone, can the SDI save your life?
Yeah, sure.
I'm not sure how much more you know about DI but if you do know more you should go more in-depth on SDI and show more examples of situations it will get you out of like you showed with the fox upsmash SDI.
You also didn't make it clear when showing survival DI what the DI'ing marth that lived actually input.
Also can you smash DI in hitstun? not hitlag, but hitstun?
LivingLegendX21 no.
When do you do the input for "normal DI"?
Nathan Walker start holding DI as soon as you think you're about to get hit. DI is read on the last frame of hitlag.
Do these also apply for Project M?
I have no idea. Brawl, and thus PM, have no accessible debug mode so I can't easily compare their mechanics.
Yes, more or less. There might be very slight differences but Melee's physics were almost completely recreated in PM, so all these things work.
Is TDI different than ASDI?
Yes, it’s explained in the video.
Whoops, I watched the videos in the wrong order and missed where you explained trajectory DI. I guess that's what I get for watching videos during meetings at work.
When exactly are you supposed to input your TDI? Is it the moment of impact, during hitstun, during flight, or prior to the move?
See 2:35. So holding it at that point / frame is required. It does not matter for how long you’ve been holding it, so both prior to the move and at the moment of impact work.
Melee Mechanics by Kadano Thank you. While we're on the subject of advanced techs, how many frames do you have to properly input L upon touching the ground to l cancel?
7 frames. See my newest video for more information on that.