A year ago I bought my MG ZS EV. At the time I had a 3 year old Kia Ceed estate GT diesel which I owned outright. I wanted a new car. The start price for the same car as what I had was £27k. The MG cost me £30k. Taking into account fuel cost etc I worked out that what the Kia would have cost me to run in diesel per month was the same as the finance payment on the MG. No brainer!
With the best will in the world you can't compare an MG ZS to a Kia Ceed. MG is a decent car but it is built to a price. A more valid comparison would be a Kia Ceed and a Kia EV6
But then the new base spec Astra is considerably better kitted out than a basic Astra was a few years ago. People's expectations are constantly rising, and car makers have to try to meet those expectations to get sales. I guess if you are happy to settle for a more modest spec car at less cost, then you'd need to look at something like a Dacia....
@@Brian-om2hh Much of the new features added to cars are compulsory (lane departure, brake assist etc) which often people don't want and switch off. I'm happy with Aircon, front electric windows and central locking for a good price. :(
Another excellent video which clearly shows and explains the important facts. I am fortunate enough to have an EV, although it is leased, not purchased. I decided to lease my Hyundai Kona Ultimate on a 2-year contract because it was my first foray into EV's and I wanted to establish if driving electric would suit me and my needs. I'm pleased to report it does and the running costs are significantly lower than would have been the case if I'd stuck with my Lexus RC 300 hybrid. I acknowledge the huge increase in petrol costs over the last 12 months has made the running cost benefit greater, but this was outside my control, so I simply got lucky. I'm intending to buy my next car, (which will be an EV), and then keep it for quite a long time so the running cost benefits help recover some of the initial higher cost of buying. No matter which way you cut it, the pleasure and freedom provided by having your own car is, and always will be, an expensive luxury for those who can afford it.
Very good comparison of prices and spot on. We purchased a 2023 Kona EV Ultimate trim about a month ago. I easily justified the $10,000 price premium to a gas Kona in fuel savings, maintenance costs, etc., We put high miles on our vehicles (40,000 - 50,000 km +) so we do easily 5 oil changes a year, our fuel prices have been anywhere between $1.50 - 2.20/litre. We do 85 - 90% of our charging at home in off peak (.08 cents/kwh) so the operational cost for the Kona EV is about .02 - .04 cents per kilometer, our Toyota RAV4 ICE vehicle, very efficient, costs us about .16 per kilometer + maintenance costs. Also, used Kona EV's are through the roof...a local dealer has a 2 year old Kona EV, lower trim level, with 56,000km on the odometer and they are asking the same money that my new Kona listed for! They will get it as demand is danmed high for ev's at the moment. Anyway, here in Canada we are seeing the same trends you are. Thanks for the video. Mike 🇨🇦 👍
A follow-up about devaluation after 5, 10, 15+ years would be interesting, or you could do a retrospective for ICE v electric cars that are 5, 10 years old now? Perhaps the electrics will plummet in value when they reach the age where the batteries need replacing, while old ICE cars that keep going without major faults will retain value?
The biggest elephant in the room is going to be the mahoosive energy hikes, I'm self employed and with the cost rocketing I will need to find an extra 12k to run my business and with fixed contracts for businesses you carnt shop and change providers like domestic suppliers so when the cost to charge your car will 50 to 60p per unit and then the gov will come out with a tax system for evs it won't work out any cheaper than an ice.
Excellent analysis as usual. Depressing for people like me though, I normally buy nearly new cars (cash) and save a few grand, but on the secondhand market EVs are so much more expensive than their petrol equivalent. Not helped by people daft enough to pay over new list price for a used EV because they are too impatient to wait.
So the Niro lost £7k (although you can buy it cheaper) and the EV varient lost £6k. There is also the extra finance cost for the 8.5k difference. So not a huge amount overall. The potential running costs could be much lower though as you say.
@@tonymaloan Yes unless you are on an EV tariff (or charge from solar) then EVs will become a hard sell. I expect the big players like Ionity will be charging about 99p per kWh. I guess many drivers will be driving for work so won't care. A vast majority of privately owned EVs only use public charging as last resort anyway so this won't change.
My concern would also be that electric rates are only going one way for the foreseeable future , and yes petrol and diesel went up but not at the same rate as electric rates are increasing. Now the cost of diesel and petrol is now creeping down again. My Mondeo costing just over 12.5p a mile in fuel. Comparable electric cost on even a very efficient car home charging only would have been around 4.5p a mile on a standard tarrif. Now come Oct, Jan , April that 4.5p turns into 14.5p mile. I'm wanting to be an electric convert but the buying cost difference between ice or elec won't be negated by cheaper running costs.
@@JohnR31415 Because to get that cheaper 'narrow band' tariff you have to pay a premium rate for all your other electric, so you should factor in that premium into your cost model.
Yes, my elec consumption daytime rate would wipe out any off peak rate at 7.5p per kWh. My commute mileage is only 30 miles a day so would only need 6 kWh a night at that rate, and up to 20 kWh at day time rate currently ? 50-70p? You have to be a specific type of user to benefit from off peak .I'm not an electric car hater by any means but in the current climate, electric cars charging cheaply is not any benefit compared to my diesel car. Putting off the change until the chaotic energy markets play out to a sensible level again.
Depreciation is a slippery topic right now. The current used car prices are not representing the real equilibrium in the long term. At some point supply will start to meet demand, and then the used values will plummet. And we don't know when that will be. So it is best to assume a standard ICE depreciation curve for the long term and i would recommend that people base purchase calculations on that. In the long term it is wise to base calculations on normal ownership costs. My experience (and my calculations) suggest that insurance is more expensive for an EV, but fuel costs comfortably more than offset that if you can charge at home. If you are relying on public chargers though, then it is more complicated - AC public charging will cost around half as much as an ICE (in fuel), but DC public charging is so close to costing the same that it doesn't matter. Servicing is where you save the money: If your EV even has an annual service, over a 5 year period it should cost substantially less than an ICE equivalent. I think it also very likely that long term costs on an ICE will go up now too. In order to meet emissions controls far more complexity is needed in the engine, with sensors and electronics all over the place. Most companies are moving to lower capacity engines to reduce intrinsic losses (less mass is moving) and putting turbos on to compensate for power loss. That means the engines are much more highly stressed, and even with the better engineering and tighter tolerances of 2022 i really don't think they will last as long as older cars without quite expensive repairs. And there will be extra costs associated with hybrid drivetrains later in the car's life. So bottom line is: Going into the future, cars are probably going to be more expensive to own, whether you buy an ICE or an EV.
But the used values of ICE cars will also plummet similarly, because they'll be less sought after. The introduction of Clean Air Charging schemes in many towns and cities, will hammer the values of used ICE cars.....
@@Brian-om2hh I would agree about the depreciation, but any car that is bought today will meet the requirements for the clean air schemes in most cities for many years. And as we are finding here in Norway now, incentives get phased out once uptake is high. So don't expect to drive your EV into london for free in 5 years.
When a new car launches there is always a large number of posts on social media and forums highlighting/complaining about the price - welcome to 2022 cars prices !! When a base spec Vauxhall Corsa is £17,500 there is no chance a new EV will come in at under £20k
Thanks for this - always interesting to see these sorts of comparisons. Comparability between cars is very tricky though - as mentioned in the video the EV version might be more powerful which may be more important to some people. But for me, range is the biggest issue. I've done hundreds of thousands of miles in a car the same class as a Peugeot 208, so I might consider an ICE version of that. But the e208 has mediocre range which couldn't manage the journeys I do several times a year. So on that criteria, something like the 208 and e208 really aren't comparable. And I think most cars in that class are the same; either no EV version at all or one with poor range (I imagine because of the physical size of the cars in that class vs the size of EV batteries required to give decent range). So if you want a smaller car, and if range is important, then an EV is much more expensive because (AFAIK) you can't buy a small EV with decent range so have to go up a couple of car classes to get one which is usable.
Having owned an EV for over a year now, I can say that range isn’t the issue, it’s charge speed. Watching a Porsche charge at 150kw/h whilst I am lucky to get 60kw/h is demoralising. Even so, I do regular journeys over the range of my EV and the infrastructure is still problematic, using apps and rfid cards - when it’s contactless it’s fine.
@@sterlingarcher4989 I tend to agree that it's charge speed which will be more important (at least in the short term) to make EVs more widely usable. I think a "charge 200 miles range in 5 minutes" car might be easier to produce, and available sooner, than an affordable car with 400 mile range. But I think my point is that using the traditional "classes" of car based on size gets more complex in the world of EVs. Hence a Peugeot 208 and e208 are not in the same category (despite presumably using the same bodyshell) if your category is defined as "cars which will take 2 people and their luggage on a long journey, for a given budget ". 20 years ago all cars around the same physical size would more or less be the same against that sort of criteria. Now, not so much.
People don’t realise just how much they spend on fuel too. My 435d for example. I put in £60 a week. That totals around £3100 a year. Compare that to around £800 a year in electricity, if charging at home on a standard tariff. So over 3 years, you save around £6900. So that £690l0 comes off the cost of ownership, whereas with the diesel, you have to add on £9300 over 3 years. Plus servicing, tax etc.
It’s difficult to get this type of information across to your average car buyer (and even more experienced ones), as a lot/possibly most people look at the initial cost and monthly payments only (my wife does that even with the weekly shop). Last October I looked at the resale value of our Mazda CX-5 2.0 petrol and noticed it actually had a positive value based on the finance settlement figure at the time. My wife had also started grumbling about fuel costs and how driving a high riding car around the country lanes where we live was making her feel dizzy and sick, so I worked out the annual savings (over £1200 pa) inc monthly payments, servicing and tax, and in November picked up an Ioniq electric. I would have preferred the Ioniq 5 for looks and interior space, but it’s still a crossover of sorts and was out of my price range. Doing a bit research for any car, let alone an EV can actually save you more money than just the purchase price. Another useful video 👍🏾
I think we'll want to factor in two things (sorry if I missed them): 1) inflation, at least when we're comparing the price of today with the price of 2 years ago. If you bought the car for 40K 3 years ago, you probably lost more than 4K in inflation. A cheaper car would lose less (in absolute amounts) 2) government grants. In Romania you get 11K Euros for a new electric car (yes, you read it right). So you can imagine how crazy the second hand market is here :) Both of which are subject to change. Though I think pretty much everywhere the argument stands that if you can afford and EV (and if it fits your needs), it's likely to be cheaper to own.
All depends what you want of course. If you’re not at the 3 year old car price point and are happy with something older, ICE unfortunately still remains unbeatable. I agonised for ages over EV or hybrid but in the end couldn’t justify to myself spending £20+k on such a car that would have limited range for those long trips and usually a compromised boot as well. Plus the £1k charger installation cost as well. I spent less than £1k on a 2008 vectra and if it lasts me a year or two I’m still saving on the depreciation of the newer car. I’d love to be more electric but the economics don’t stack up for me
Great video. Could you talk about the cost of running an EV with the energy price hike next month? Are they still cheaper to run? I guess with company car BIK it may still be worth it? Thanks
No doubt BEVs makes sense buying new, however my Niro PHEV has entered a period in ownership where the depreciation has slowed down and the repair costs are statistically not expected to increase. The timing for purchasing a replacement car is also a factor to consider in when considering BEV or the ICE equipped alternatives.
Looking at the prices of the Citroën C4 and the ë-C4 in Denmark they are a lot closer, electric cars have much less registration taxes. C4: Iconic with 130 HP and automatic transmission cost DKK 325,000 (£37,100) ë-C4: Iconic with 136 HP cost DKK 300,000 (£34,250)
Same in Norway. Here i was comparing a Model 3 LR with a Skoda Octavia 4x4 at the same purchase price. At the same overall 5 year ownership price i was comparing the Model 3 to a Toyota Corolla. That latter was not a difficult choice to make....
@@EwanV Probably a few factors. The e208 should have marginally more range and better acceleration because it weighs a bit less, and Peugeots generally cost a little more than their Citroen counterparts (and, of course, there's that cabin)... but they're also built on the same platform, despite the e-C4 being larger. Badge snobbery doesn't come into it here, so it's probably a case of weighing up form (e-208) versus function (e-C4)... and the latter does very well, especially if you just want something to waft about in.
Narrowing by increasing ICE price not lowering EV which most people assumed a few years back. When I point that out a few years ago I was told I was wrong and EV will be 20k
Another great video! Would be interesting to see comparison between petrol / diesel pricing vs electricity charges and how this impacts day to day cost of owning & using ev & ice cars. kWh prices are rising faster than diesel/ petrol. I’ve done my maths but would be great to see your perspective
This gets pretty complicated because if you charge at home on an ev tariff (like octopus Go for example) your costs for the ev are a world different to someone who has to charge publicly. At the moment octopus go is about 7.5p kWh whereas InstaVolt is more like 60p. Some people will charge 100% time at home. Some will use public chargers 100% of the time and most will have a mix of the two.
When I bought my 21' TM3 LR, I was originally looking at something along the lines of a BMW 330e, I wanted away from diesel due to ensuing city centre emission stuff. I originally would have been looking at 2nd hand on the 330e (to factor in running costs), after lockdown and not spending a small fortune on fuel etc, I was in a position to look at other options. I wanted to retain the relative performance I had with my big audi (without the fuel bill 25mpg avg! @15k/yr, I swear it leaked fuel!) As other options had opened up, a newer 330e didn't have the tax benefits and my job changed location so there was no way to do a commute on electric only. A new 330e at the time was IRO £51k optioned correctly, the Tesla with it's running costs significantly lower became more reasonable. Test drive of the LR later I was sold, if nervous. One of the best cars I've ever owned, will not go back to ICE for general driving. I was lucky and in a position to buy the car in the first place and before the prices went completely bonkers. Crazy how I could probably sell it for more than I paid for it.
Interesting, you could do a part 2 showing monthly PCP or similar prices which might close the gap in terms of practical cost for most people, is it 80% buy on finance now? That would show up at least the expected depreciation
Love the video! However what about used car prices? For instance I could get a 2012 Nissan Leaf currently for about £7k, whereas a 2012 Nissan Qashqai (significantly bigger) only £2.5k - do the sums add up with man maths?
Thanks for this comparison. It will hopefully help those planning to switch to EVs. It would be great if you could do a video adding ownership costs (fuel, maintenance , tool, etc. ) to these base prices.
As all energy companies have withdrawn ev tariffs for new customers, the takeup of new ev cars is now likely to be limited. Not many are going to swallow the premium over the price of an ice car if there's nothing to be saved on fuelling it.
I always said that the ev prices will eventually be cheaper than ice but that the ice will just get more expensive rather than bringing ev prices down. This world makes me feel sick , I mean that literally too, I feel really ill these days worrying about the future where I cant afford to heat my house and cook my meals never mind affording a car.
I wondered at first whether 'The lamps are going out all over Europe, we shall not see them lit again in our lifetime' with the Russians activities, but I've not heard anything on the news so i remain hopeful. Thanks for the evaluation, and for keeping it real.
what you are forgetting is checking the car discount sites where some ICE cars can be had for 20% discount some as factory order, couple that with fuel prices coming down and electric cost going up, then running an EV can be more expensive if you keep your car a long time
But the sting in the tail with ICE used values is just around the corner, in another 3 to 4 years Michael. They will become considerably less sought after, and this will be reflected in their worth..... One reason for that will be the upcoming roll out of Clean Air Zone charging schemes in towns and cities.... Yep, it's coming. Paris and Berlin have already banned diesel cars from their city centres..... It'll be here before too long....
Don't think he forgot. He literally said at the start of the video he was checking list prices. Very tricky to compare like for like costs if you're going to include searching for deals and would be a much longer video. You can find deals on just about everything, though I do take your point that there are probably more for ICE currently.
Government purchase grants? The current fuel price challenges? Potential future electricity costs? Taxes that won't be 'zero' forever? You've taken a 'snapshot' in the middle of an energy crisis scenario that puts EV's in demand and ICE on the back foot. If you did this comparison 3 years ago (or do it again in three years time) the outcomes will be different. Your assessment is correct.... BUT....
Where have you been hiding? You've got that completely wrong. Petrol and diesel has been falling but electricity has doubled and is set to go up 80% in October and another 50% in january. Evs are on the back foot now.
Could I use my ev as a mobile battery storage for my house? Charge at off peak rate and discharge during peak rates when available? Or charge at my work at no cost then plug into home to supply power? Thanks for any advice
The electric car I ordered in October 2021 which turned up in March is now 30% more expensive from the same dealer than what I payed when I ordered it in October.
So a petrol Niro costs £27.745. Minus the middle example of a 3 year old one £20.885 means a loss of £6860. An electric Niro costs £36.245. Minus the middle example of a 3 year one £28400 means a loss of £7845. Eh?
spot on buddy.....slightly bias video IMO. sure your depreciation is lower pound on pound (about 21% vrs 26% in your example) but you've still got best part of 8.5k list price to make up. By my non-white wall of truth to make ev's cheaper your "servicing" and "road tax" and "all that" would need to equate to about 7k over 3 years..last time I checked servicing and road tax wasn't anywhere near that.
@@M0nTheFish In my first year of ownership it's cost me £216 in electric to do 13000 miles. In diesel (my old car) that same mileage would have cost me £1989 (given an average of £1.70 a litre) There's more to it than that though. I looked at cost per month and basically my finance payment is the same as what i was spending on diesel.
How can I argue when someone says 13k miles costs £216. So basically the video which has no mention of fuel costs is totally based on fuel costs…..interesting,
@@M0nTheFish I guess if you have a cheap night-time tariff it makes sense. But many people don't have or cannot get one now which would mean charging at normal rates.. Going up and up. Plus to do long distance driving you would have to use public chargers which are getting more expensive also. Personally I am still unsure, if you have the right setup it's great but if you don't it's still a bit of a mess.
Think I will just run my dirty diesel till it dies, as millions of others are going to do. Only pay £30 tax and get 50+mpg. For the miles I do no way going to pay 34k + for a longer range EV like the MG, as much as i would like one. And no one cares about power if they are buying the models you are using (except maybe BMW), so that is no justification for paying more for electric.
I am retired and do very little mileage these days so my running costs are way lower than the repayments would be on a new EV. Also because I do so little mileage I reckon that my carbon footprint is still lower than if I bought a new EV.
@@eclecticcyclist exactly. As long as there arent any big repair Bill's we are far better off running old cars and leaving the evs to those who do the miles, we can pick up a cheap old used ev in 5 years or whatever if it makes sense then. I find I've done more miles on my ebike than my car.
@@FlyingFun. During the Covid lockdown I did twice as many miles on my conventional bike than I did in my car. I even find myself riding 20 miles to go shopping these days.
@@eclecticcyclist I'd just got back into cycling and built an ebike before lockdown and it was fantastic, really quiet roads and I went on some big rides to new places and really noticed how much cleaner the rivers and lakes were than usual. Cycling is very therapeutic away from traffic.
Automatics cost more over in the UK, mainly because they are the twin clutch DSG types, not traditional autos. EVs dont actually have a transmission at all. All the extra money is due to the battery packs, yet they are simpler to make and manufacture. We are being gouged for EVs.
My Fiat 500e convertible is about twice the price of the petrol version..But mine has a lot more tech and trying to find an equivalent ICE version is impossible. Night time electricity is a fraction of petrol costs , running costs are lower and residuals are better. ..
for me personally, this argument is a mute point. both cars r gonna be uneconomical to repair in about 15 years time. in 15 years, i would have paid roughly 13k€ more for gas and road tax than the EV. i reckon the gas car would have broken down more often since it has tons of moving parts and quite a lot of sensors. the battery of the EV can degrade for 30% and it will still be useful since most of the models u mentioned have 40+KWh and my current car(which is my only car) had 27kWh new. i actually have great conditions when it comes to holding back battery degradation but i think that age alone has an effect. therefore, the EV that costs 10k more is still cheaper to own, has luxuries like preheat, loads of power, vehicle to load(if we are talking about the upcoming Niro), low center of gravity... and most importantly, if i want to go to a lake 20 miles away from my home once a month or 20 times a month, it bearly makes a difference to me financially.
Hi, I'm not knocking the extra power of equivalent EVs, but they are (I believe?) heavier as well. I know you didn't count it as a plus, but we all did, I think.. I think you can't really haggle on a new EV, can you on a new ICE?
The White Board of Truth needs its own jingle. I could buy and run a used eg.Peugeot 208 for ten years, for less than a basic new car for £15-20k. So why buy anything other than a used eg.208?
I pay 7.5p per kwh to charge my EV on my overnight tariff. This gives me a per mile cost of around 2 to 2.5p per mile. The cost of charging at home would need to rise at least 6 to 8 fold, to be on a par with petrol. The EV will retain it's running cost advantage for a long time yet...... Sure, public charging costs will probably increase, but as the average EV owner might only use public charging 5 or 6 times a year, on average, the additional cost pales into insignificance when you charge at home 95% of the time....
@@Brian-om2hh really interesting, just had a quick look online and overnight EV tariffs seem to have been frozen. Sounds great if you have one already.
@Brian What about the higher than normal rates during the day your paying extra . To make any savings on those tariffs you must have to utilise the max of 28kh every night for the tarrif to be worth while. So doing fairly long commutes each day. For someone who does only daily commutes of 30miles or so the likes of octopus go tarrifs would be pointless as majority of energy use would be at an inflated rate compared to normal tarrifs
It shouldn’t be narrowing it should be cheaper than a v6 model if anything normal cars have added 5k to there pricing over 2 years it’s ridiculous battery raw product shot up from 1.50 dollars per kw to 4 dollars just because of a deliberate restrictions of raw materials, someone is making a fortune now
Will the 250% increase in electric ( and probably more later on ) make the running costs compatible with ICE cars as an efficient 1.0 litre petrol can do 50-60 gallon especially with Fuel prices are coming back down . (£ 1.67 near me ) ? A 3 year deal usually includes a warranty so maintenance is also negated as an additional cost. High initial purchase verses Depreciation was always countered with but look at the running costs. Much more difficult now .
Most people charge overnight on a cheaper tariff. My overnight cheap rate has just gone up 50% to 7.5p per k/wh which means I only get around 300mpg instead of the 500mpg I was getting .
Enjoy your high resale value while you can because when EV supply can catch up with demand (sometime in the next ten years?) we could see a fall in new car prices. Tesla have engineered so many cost savings into the manufacture of their cars that Sandy Munro estimates that it costs less for Tesla to manufacture a Model3 in America than it costs Ford to manufacture the Mach-E in Mexico.
Cost to run EV per mile at home [after October cap increase based on 51p/kWhr domestic tarrif] is 22p/mile. Charging at a public charge point or service station will be considerably more. Cost to run petrol car per mile [based on £1.80/litre] is 15.2p/mile Cost to run a diesel car per mile [based on £1.90/litre] is 12.2p/ mile... The price of domestic electricity is going to stop the EV market in its tracks.
@@ElectricVehicleMan Few do... and even then the price per kWhr is going to skyrocket in October... the wheels are going to come off unless we can force the Governments around the world to lower wholesale energy prices.
I have a plugg in hybrid as 90+% of the journeys I do which can't be done on a bike or walking are less than 36 miles which is the hybrid's range... but the domestic tariff means it's cheaper not to charge and use petrol which is ridiculous!
@@ElectricVehicleMan Wow, please tell me more. I am on a variable tariff with OVO, using an installed Project EV 7kWhr charger.though my car is limited to 3.4kWhr charging rate- OVO don't provide Economy 7 or an equivalent so I have been looking at Octopus as I'm waiting for a solar PV with battery storage to be installed and want to be ready. Many thanks, Chris [Please could you reply or send me a DM with the contact email/ tel no. for Go? I can find a website for Go Electric but that appears to be limited to the Yorkshire/Derbyshire/Midlands, not the NE.]
what about the higher cost of electricity coming our way, charging at home will be significantly more expensive to charge a ev, im due to get a vw id3 and im a bit worried about getting it
@@ElectricVehicleMan Do you think the ToD tariff will remain untouched? Cant see it staying as it is, and I wonder if the providers can even afford to allow them to continue
So about 9/10K more for an EV over an ICE and dont forget to add in the extra cash to have a home charger fitted as well. I did the maths for my driving mostly long trips and 6000 miles a year and a EV was poor value. I work from home so my longer journeys are from when I am away so no home charging which means expensive fast chargers on the way. My insurance is 115 quid a year so much cheaper than an EV not even offset by the free RFL.
Pretty much came to the same conclusion David. If you are somebody who regularly pays 30-40k for a new car (every 3 years say) then moving to an EV isn't too much of a leap depending on your circumstances. My 2 x diesels both get over 50-55mpg, and I think the real 'savings' when converting are for those motorists who have really high annual mileage and stupidly low mpg. You are right to factor in insurance as well, it's a significant jump.
The gap is narrowing however its still a way to go and there is still No "Good deal " on any used ev or ice still. Like you said your 2.5 year old standard range plus can sell for over list 2.5 years on and 35k miles later. The markets bonkers. No good deal anywhere i dont care where you look.
A straight list price comparison isn't that helpful as there are many variables which would affect decision making. Are you a company car driver who does a high mileage, who would also benefit from the 0% BIK, maybe a private buyer who could charge at home, or would you need to use public chargers? 18 months ago, I changed my car and bought a 208. At the time I did a comparison with the e208, I can't remember the figures at the time, however, the e208 wasn't financially viable for me. I've just been on Peugeot's website to configure both in GT spec with no options and on the "Just add fuel" PCP : 208 130 auto : OTR £26,470 - PEU UK contribution £2,350, Deposit £5k - monthly £321 balloon £13k e208 136 EV : OTR £33.445 - PEU UK contribution £650 Deposit £5k - monthly £501 balloon £17k The insurance part of the monthly payment on both would be £31, the servicing plan element £16 208 v £8 e208. The other point which made it a complete non starter for the EV was charging. I can't charge at home like about 30-35% of the population. Number of fast chargers in this town at the time, population 60k, none, nil zero. 18 months later number of fast chargers, none, nil, zero! Even with fast charging available, due to the low mileage I do, the fuel cost savings would be minimal.
maybe lease pricing has messed with peoples’ heads and all this EV bashing with ‘so much more than petrol cars’ is based on ‘in my day a new car was 12 shillings and sixpence’
@@Brian-om2hh as petrol goes up ice cars will be less and less attractive I guess, but electricity prices are going up too. Some Old ice cars prices might go up because there will be fewer of them but most likely just drop through the floor . Being a low mileage family I do question the benefits of electric considering the price compared to just running our old civic 1.5 diesel which gives 60mpg.
If you can't non-subsidized costs then the electric cars are not any more expensive, but they are a environmental disaster. The electric car is something like your phone. It will take about 500 full recharge cycles. This can be extended a little bit by not fully discharging and not fully charging for a little while. But at the end of the day you are stuck with a battery that will cost you tens of thousands of dollars. Make the car an economic right off and be a disposal nightmare, not counting the procurement nightmare for batteries alone. On top of this, the range of an electric vehicle is an issue in big countries or in places where you're not handy to either recharge stations or your local supermarkets. As well as all of this, then the recharging of electric vehicles suburb by suburb and will require a complete retuning of the entire electric grid network because the cost of putting transport into the energy requirements via electricity is astronomical.
@@ElectricVehicleMan another point is - many people don't want, and, let's be honest, nobody needs - the crazy performance of most EVs! However, you get in anyway - and you have to pay for it...! I watched a review recently of yet another 'family SUV' which was described as NOT having sporty performance.. ..it did 0 to 62 mph in 5.9 seconds!!! W.T.F....!?!?
You lost me at list price. Who pays list price, even if you wanted to, it will likely only be sold at a dealer price. Theoretically, the list price of my EV was 10k more than the petrol equivalent, after comparing the dealer purchase price on like for like, the difference was about £5k. I reckon with petrol prices as they are, I will have broken even in around 2 or 3 years. That's before considering depreciation voodoo.
So you calculation demonstrates that you should by a second hand petrol car. Alternatively lease a petrol which cost me £4k for 2 years. Finally if you are rich buy a Tesla ?
You still are no where near being able to fill it up once and drive over 700 miles without stopping, how about a Dacia Jogger family car 7 seats automatic £15,000 to 18,000 show me an EV that can even manage 150 miles on a charge in the dark at 0 Degrees temperature for that. maybe in ten to twenty years.
My Hyundai Kona Electric drives fine in -15 here in Sweden. I get about 350 km range then. So 0 degrees in the dark is nothing. That's called November or December.
My Model 3 will easily do 150 miles in the dark in the norwegian winter (-15C). The whole 700 mile thing is really overrated in most cases. When you properly question people you will find that most actually stop every 2.5 to 3 hours on a long journey, which is no problem with a long range EV. And the 35-40 mins needed to recharge quickly disappears once you've taken a pee, bought a coffee and eaten a sandwich. The inconvenience is actually not during the journey, it's at the end: If you don't have destination charging then there is a genuine inconvenience with an EV, as you have to add an extra 30-45 mins to the journey to make that extra charge. At that point an ICE has a benefit, especially for someone who travels a lot with work and doesn't have a lot of spare time in the day. I would agree completely that the Dacia's are a total bargain. They are basically disposable cars at that price.
@@jimh5031 I just ran round from central Norway to the UK (and back) this summer. Going out was 3000km in 3 days, so i think it's fair to say that an EV is not an impediment to long distance travel. As for time and stops, i can tell you that i made it from Stockholm to Hamburg (730 miles) in just over 13hrs, with 4 stops. The longest stint between stops was 214 miles and 3.5 hours, and that used 90% of the battery. Total charging time was around 110 mins (plus exit/entry to the motorway). I would be lying if i said i couldn't do it faster with an ICE, but i would still have needed at least 2 decent stops (30-40 mins) on the journey. So the EV didn't really cost all that much extra time. For someone who doesn't do long journeys, i would definitely recommend looking at an EV. Especially if you can have home charging installed. If you tend to go to places over 120 miles away which don't have easy destination charging, then you will need to tolerate a little inconvenience i admit. But if it's only a couple of times a year then the cost savings (and convenience of home charging) are probably worth it. If you go every 2-3 weeks, then yeah they might not be.
@@15bit62 I would buy an EV if they were actually green and saving the planet. A lot of the latest evidence is suggesting they are WORSE than ICE cars which is devastating and worrying.
You still insist on not having lost any money on your three year old Tesla by saying you’ll get the same back. A couple of minutes later you rightly add, though, that everything is more expensive in the world. So I’ll say it again: there’s no way that three year old forty thousand pounds will buy you the same amount of anything today. So yes, you have suffered depreciation.
I doubt it. EVM has his own large storage battery, charged via the solar on his roof. He could have the lights back on in seconds, using his battery....
You are clearly biased. On one hand you say extra HP would cost premium, but you somehow forget that so would extra range or faster recharge. Your own screenshots show similar or higher depreciation on niro EV, yet you claim otherwise. And you forgot one massive cost - insurance. Thats calculated from a price and will be much higher for ev versions. And there’s one hidden cost - petrol version base price is artificially increased in some countries by not selling the real base version of the vehicle there. Look for C4 in eastern EU and you will see that you can buy non ev version for less than half of ev. Btw I’m not against EVs. My model 3 is on a way from a factory. I’m against ev bias (or any bias).
The Niro EV was £32500 at launch and is now £30k 3 years later! How is that higher depreciation? What are you saying I’m bias on? That EVs aren’t more expensive? They clearly are.
@@ElectricVehicleMan You addressed single complaint and again showed bias by rounding in the unfavourable direction for ICEs/favourable for BEVs (again as in the video). As for the numbers: 32.9-27.8 = 5.1k depreciation for the EV. Non-evs started at 25.7k (new 3 years ago) and that's 25.7-20.4 = 5.3k depreciation.
I would not buy an electric car or even want one ever they are shit you are all being fooled if you believe they are the future, certainly not in the next 25 -50 years
I believe electric vehicles will never be widely used. They are too expensive and complicated. Most people live in apartments and won't have easy access to charging points and since apartments in the city costs the same as 3-4 large houses on the countryside, the listing price for EVs is too much for some low-income citydweller like myself.. It saddens me, because EVs are cool AF.
Nobody does this type of content, or at least as good as you do. Thank you for what you do.
I agree. Really well researched and clearly presented. Well done 🇦🇺🏳️🌈
A year ago I bought my MG ZS EV. At the time I had a 3 year old Kia Ceed estate GT diesel which I owned outright. I wanted a new car. The start price for the same car as what I had was £27k. The MG cost me £30k. Taking into account fuel cost etc I worked out that what the Kia would have cost me to run in diesel per month was the same as the finance payment on the MG. No brainer!
With the best will in the world you can't compare an MG ZS to a Kia Ceed.
MG is a decent car but it is built to a price.
A more valid comparison would be a Kia Ceed and a Kia EV6
@@bigjml maybe slightly closer but the ev6 is a much better car than the Ceed
The price is narrowing because petrol car prices are rocketing, the new Astra is over 5k more than the previous model new. And that’s the base model.
Rip off Britain (again) Just like in the 1970's, then we joined the Common Market.
But then the new base spec Astra is considerably better kitted out than a basic Astra was a few years ago. People's expectations are constantly rising, and car makers have to try to meet those expectations to get sales. I guess if you are happy to settle for a more modest spec car at less cost, then you'd need to look at something like a Dacia....
@@Brian-om2hh Much of the new features added to cars are compulsory (lane departure, brake assist etc) which often people don't want and switch off.
I'm happy with Aircon, front electric windows and central locking for a good price. :(
Another excellent video which clearly shows and explains the important facts.
I am fortunate enough to have an EV, although it is leased, not purchased. I decided to lease my Hyundai Kona Ultimate on a 2-year contract because it was my first foray into EV's and I wanted to establish if driving electric would suit me and my needs.
I'm pleased to report it does and the running costs are significantly lower than would have been the case if I'd stuck with my Lexus RC 300 hybrid.
I acknowledge the huge increase in petrol costs over the last 12 months has made the running cost benefit greater, but this was outside my control, so I simply got lucky.
I'm intending to buy my next car, (which will be an EV), and then keep it for quite a long time so the running cost benefits help recover some of the initial higher cost of buying.
No matter which way you cut it, the pleasure and freedom provided by having your own car is, and always will be, an expensive luxury for those who can afford it.
Very good comparison of prices and spot on.
We purchased a 2023 Kona EV Ultimate trim about a month ago. I easily justified the $10,000 price premium to a gas Kona in fuel savings, maintenance costs, etc., We put high miles on our vehicles (40,000 - 50,000 km +) so we do easily 5 oil changes a year, our fuel prices have been anywhere between $1.50 - 2.20/litre. We do 85 - 90% of our charging at home in off peak (.08 cents/kwh) so the operational cost for the Kona EV is about .02 - .04 cents per kilometer, our Toyota RAV4 ICE vehicle, very efficient, costs us about .16 per kilometer + maintenance costs.
Also, used Kona EV's are through the roof...a local dealer has a 2 year old Kona EV, lower trim level, with 56,000km on the odometer and they are asking the same money that my new Kona listed for! They will get it as demand is danmed high for ev's at the moment.
Anyway, here in Canada we are seeing the same trends you are.
Thanks for the video.
Mike 🇨🇦 👍
A follow-up about devaluation after 5, 10, 15+ years would be interesting, or you could do a retrospective for ICE v electric cars that are 5, 10 years old now?
Perhaps the electrics will plummet in value when they reach the age where the batteries need replacing, while old ICE cars that keep going without major faults will retain value?
The biggest elephant in the room is going to be the mahoosive energy hikes, I'm self employed and with the cost rocketing I will need to find an extra 12k to run my business and with fixed contracts for businesses you carnt shop and change providers like domestic suppliers so when the cost to charge your car will 50 to 60p per unit and then the gov will come out with a tax system for evs it won't work out any cheaper than an ice.
Excellent analysis as usual. Depressing for people like me though, I normally buy nearly new cars (cash) and save a few grand, but on the secondhand market EVs are so much more expensive than their petrol equivalent. Not helped by people daft enough to pay over new list price for a used EV because they are too impatient to wait.
So the Niro lost £7k (although you can buy it cheaper) and the EV varient lost £6k. There is also the extra finance cost for the 8.5k difference. So not a huge amount overall.
The potential running costs could be much lower though as you say.
You may want to rethink the running cost argument in a months time, when a KW costs 51p+ at home, what will it be on the motorway then ?
@@tonymaloan Yes unless you are on an EV tariff (or charge from solar) then EVs will become a hard sell. I expect the big players like Ionity will be charging about 99p per kWh.
I guess many drivers will be driving for work so won't care. A vast majority of privately owned EVs only use public charging as last resort anyway so this won't change.
My concern would also be that electric rates are only going one way for the foreseeable future , and yes petrol and diesel went up but not at the same rate as electric rates are increasing. Now the cost of diesel and petrol is now creeping down again. My Mondeo costing just over 12.5p a mile in fuel.
Comparable electric cost on even a very efficient car home charging only would have been around 4.5p a mile on a standard tarrif. Now come Oct, Jan , April that 4.5p turns into 14.5p mile.
I'm wanting to be an electric convert but the buying cost difference between ice or elec won't be negated by cheaper running costs.
you have to hope/assume thats a short term pain though. Or we’re all screwed regardless what car we drive.
Why would you stay on a standard tariff?
Get an EV tariff - charge at 7.5p/kWh or under 2p/mile.
@@JohnR31415 Because to get that cheaper 'narrow band' tariff you have to pay a premium rate for all your other electric, so you should factor in that premium into your cost model.
Yes, my elec consumption daytime rate would wipe out any off peak rate at 7.5p per kWh. My commute mileage is only 30 miles a day so would only need 6 kWh a night at that rate, and up to 20 kWh at day time rate currently ? 50-70p? You have to be a specific type of user to benefit from off peak .I'm not an electric car hater by any means but in the current climate, electric cars charging cheaply is not any benefit compared to my diesel car. Putting off the change until the chaotic energy markets play out to a sensible level again.
@@iantaylor1172 if it’s an option EV with ToU tariff can be a good way to make a battery cost effective
Depreciation is a slippery topic right now. The current used car prices are not representing the real equilibrium in the long term. At some point supply will start to meet demand, and then the used values will plummet. And we don't know when that will be. So it is best to assume a standard ICE depreciation curve for the long term and i would recommend that people base purchase calculations on that.
In the long term it is wise to base calculations on normal ownership costs. My experience (and my calculations) suggest that insurance is more expensive for an EV, but fuel costs comfortably more than offset that if you can charge at home. If you are relying on public chargers though, then it is more complicated - AC public charging will cost around half as much as an ICE (in fuel), but DC public charging is so close to costing the same that it doesn't matter. Servicing is where you save the money: If your EV even has an annual service, over a 5 year period it should cost substantially less than an ICE equivalent.
I think it also very likely that long term costs on an ICE will go up now too. In order to meet emissions controls far more complexity is needed in the engine, with sensors and electronics all over the place. Most companies are moving to lower capacity engines to reduce intrinsic losses (less mass is moving) and putting turbos on to compensate for power loss. That means the engines are much more highly stressed, and even with the better engineering and tighter tolerances of 2022 i really don't think they will last as long as older cars without quite expensive repairs. And there will be extra costs associated with hybrid drivetrains later in the car's life.
So bottom line is: Going into the future, cars are probably going to be more expensive to own, whether you buy an ICE or an EV.
But the used values of ICE cars will also plummet similarly, because they'll be less sought after. The introduction of Clean Air Charging schemes in many towns and cities, will hammer the values of used ICE cars.....
@@Brian-om2hh I would agree about the depreciation, but any car that is bought today will meet the requirements for the clean air schemes in most cities for many years. And as we are finding here in Norway now, incentives get phased out once uptake is high. So don't expect to drive your EV into london for free in 5 years.
When a new car launches there is always a large number of posts on social media and forums highlighting/complaining about the price - welcome to 2022 cars prices !!
When a base spec Vauxhall Corsa is £17,500 there is no chance a new EV will come in at under £20k
I paid £9.5k for a 24kWh LEAF 5 years ago, I sold it for £8.5k 3 years later, if I bought it back now it would cost me £10.5k 😳
Thanks for this - always interesting to see these sorts of comparisons.
Comparability between cars is very tricky though - as mentioned in the video the EV version might be more powerful which may be more important to some people. But for me, range is the biggest issue. I've done hundreds of thousands of miles in a car the same class as a Peugeot 208, so I might consider an ICE version of that. But the e208 has mediocre range which couldn't manage the journeys I do several times a year. So on that criteria, something like the 208 and e208 really aren't comparable.
And I think most cars in that class are the same; either no EV version at all or one with poor range (I imagine because of the physical size of the cars in that class vs the size of EV batteries required to give decent range).
So if you want a smaller car, and if range is important, then an EV is much more expensive because (AFAIK) you can't buy a small EV with decent range so have to go up a couple of car classes to get one which is usable.
Having owned an EV for over a year now, I can say that range isn’t the issue, it’s charge speed.
Watching a Porsche charge at 150kw/h whilst I am lucky to get 60kw/h is demoralising.
Even so, I do regular journeys over the range of my EV and the infrastructure is still problematic, using apps and rfid cards - when it’s contactless it’s fine.
@@sterlingarcher4989 I tend to agree that it's charge speed which will be more important (at least in the short term) to make EVs more widely usable. I think a "charge 200 miles range in 5 minutes" car might be easier to produce, and available sooner, than an affordable car with 400 mile range.
But I think my point is that using the traditional "classes" of car based on size gets more complex in the world of EVs.
Hence a Peugeot 208 and e208 are not in the same category (despite presumably using the same bodyshell) if your category is defined as "cars which will take 2 people and their luggage on a long journey, for a given budget ". 20 years ago all cars around the same physical size would more or less be the same against that sort of criteria.
Now, not so much.
People don’t realise just how much they spend on fuel too. My 435d for example. I put in £60 a week. That totals around £3100 a year. Compare that to around £800 a year in electricity, if charging at home on a standard tariff. So over 3 years, you save around £6900. So that £690l0 comes off the cost of ownership, whereas with the diesel, you have to add on £9300 over 3 years. Plus servicing, tax etc.
It’s difficult to get this type of information across to your average car buyer (and even more experienced ones), as a lot/possibly most people look at the initial cost and monthly payments only (my wife does that even with the weekly shop).
Last October I looked at the resale value of our Mazda CX-5 2.0 petrol and noticed it actually had a positive value based on the finance settlement figure at the time. My wife had also started grumbling about fuel costs and how driving a high riding car around the country lanes where we live was making her feel dizzy and sick, so I worked out the annual savings (over £1200 pa) inc monthly payments, servicing and tax, and in November picked up an Ioniq electric. I would have preferred the Ioniq 5 for looks and interior space, but it’s still a crossover of sorts and was out of my price range. Doing a bit research for any car, let alone an EV can actually save you more money than just the purchase price.
Another useful video 👍🏾
Right, because the average car buyer doesn’t even factor in maintenance and depreciation at all!
Just checked how much my 1 year old Kona Electric would go for on AutoTrader. Looking at about 7 grand more than what I paid for it. Crazy.
I think we'll want to factor in two things (sorry if I missed them):
1) inflation, at least when we're comparing the price of today with the price of 2 years ago. If you bought the car for 40K 3 years ago, you probably lost more than 4K in inflation. A cheaper car would lose less (in absolute amounts)
2) government grants. In Romania you get 11K Euros for a new electric car (yes, you read it right). So you can imagine how crazy the second hand market is here :)
Both of which are subject to change. Though I think pretty much everywhere the argument stands that if you can afford and EV (and if it fits your needs), it's likely to be cheaper to own.
All depends what you want of course. If you’re not at the 3 year old car price point and are happy with something older, ICE unfortunately still remains unbeatable.
I agonised for ages over EV or hybrid but in the end couldn’t justify to myself spending £20+k on such a car that would have limited range for those long trips and usually a compromised boot as well. Plus the £1k charger installation cost as well. I spent less than £1k on a 2008 vectra and if it lasts me a year or two I’m still saving on the depreciation of the newer car.
I’d love to be more electric but the economics don’t stack up for me
Great video. Could you talk about the cost of running an EV with the energy price hike next month? Are they still cheaper to run? I guess with company car BIK it may still be worth it? Thanks
No doubt BEVs makes sense buying new, however my Niro PHEV has entered a period in ownership where the depreciation has slowed down and the repair costs are statistically not expected to increase. The timing for purchasing a replacement car is also a factor to consider in when considering BEV or the ICE equipped alternatives.
Looking at the prices of the Citroën C4 and the ë-C4 in Denmark they are a lot closer, electric cars have much less registration taxes.
C4: Iconic with 130 HP and automatic transmission cost DKK 325,000 (£37,100)
ë-C4: Iconic with 136 HP cost DKK 300,000 (£34,250)
Same in Norway. Here i was comparing a Model 3 LR with a Skoda Octavia 4x4 at the same purchase price. At the same overall 5 year ownership price i was comparing the Model 3 to a Toyota Corolla. That latter was not a difficult choice to make....
I was staring at that board and thinking, there is no difference between the e-208's cost and the e-C4... why would you buy the e-208!
@@EwanV I ordered a Model Y (£66K), going to pick it up in a week
@@EwanV Probably a few factors. The e208 should have marginally more range and better acceleration because it weighs a bit less, and Peugeots generally cost a little more than their Citroen counterparts (and, of course, there's that cabin)... but they're also built on the same platform, despite the e-C4 being larger. Badge snobbery doesn't come into it here, so it's probably a case of weighing up form (e-208) versus function (e-C4)... and the latter does very well, especially if you just want something to waft about in.
Narrowing by increasing ICE price not lowering EV which most people assumed a few years back. When I point that out a few years ago I was told I was wrong and EV will be 20k
Yep! Everybody 'in the know' was droning on about EV/ICE price parity by 2020!!
Tee hee.......
Great content, and I'm across the pond. I especially like your general energy cost videos (heat pumps vs. fossil fuel).
Another great video! Would be interesting to see comparison between petrol / diesel pricing vs electricity charges and how this impacts day to day cost of owning & using ev & ice cars. kWh prices are rising faster than diesel/ petrol. I’ve done my maths but would be great to see your perspective
I.e kWh is expected to be 0.50p in October vs say 190p for a liter of diesel
This gets pretty complicated because if you charge at home on an ev tariff (like octopus Go for example) your costs for the ev are a world different to someone who has to charge publicly. At the moment octopus go is about 7.5p kWh whereas InstaVolt is more like 60p. Some people will charge 100% time at home. Some will use public chargers 100% of the time and most will have a mix of the two.
When I bought my 21' TM3 LR, I was originally looking at something along the lines of a BMW 330e, I wanted away from diesel due to ensuing city centre emission stuff.
I originally would have been looking at 2nd hand on the 330e (to factor in running costs), after lockdown and not spending a small fortune on fuel etc, I was in a position to look at other options.
I wanted to retain the relative performance I had with my big audi (without the fuel bill 25mpg avg! @15k/yr, I swear it leaked fuel!)
As other options had opened up, a newer 330e didn't have the tax benefits and my job changed location so there was no way to do a commute on electric only.
A new 330e at the time was IRO £51k optioned correctly, the Tesla with it's running costs significantly lower became more reasonable. Test drive of the LR later I was sold, if nervous.
One of the best cars I've ever owned, will not go back to ICE for general driving.
I was lucky and in a position to buy the car in the first place and before the prices went completely bonkers.
Crazy how I could probably sell it for more than I paid for it.
Interesting, you could do a part 2 showing monthly PCP or similar prices which might close the gap in terms of practical cost for most people, is it 80% buy on finance now? That would show up at least the expected depreciation
Love the video! However what about used car prices? For instance I could get a 2012 Nissan Leaf currently for about £7k, whereas a 2012 Nissan Qashqai (significantly bigger) only £2.5k - do the sums add up with man maths?
Thanks for this comparison. It will hopefully help those planning to switch to EVs. It would be great if you could do a video adding ownership costs (fuel, maintenance , tool, etc. ) to these base prices.
What he never does is to look at how the battery range deteriorates over time. After ten years you have to replace the battery at huge cost.
As all energy companies have withdrawn ev tariffs for new customers, the takeup of new ev cars is now likely to be limited. Not many are going to swallow the premium over the price of an ice car if there's nothing to be saved on fuelling it.
All energy companies haven’t withdrawn it.
I always said that the ev prices will eventually be cheaper than ice but that the ice will just get more expensive rather than bringing ev prices down.
This world makes me feel sick , I mean that literally too, I feel really ill these days worrying about the future where I cant afford to heat my house and cook my meals never mind affording a car.
I wondered at first whether 'The lamps are going out all over Europe, we shall not see them lit again in our lifetime' with the Russians activities, but I've not heard anything on the news so i remain hopeful. Thanks for the evaluation, and for keeping it real.
So you are saying if you can afford to buy an EV outright - do it and sell it in 3 years to trade up?
what you are forgetting is checking the car discount sites where some ICE cars can be had for 20% discount some as factory order, couple that with fuel prices coming down and electric cost going up, then running an EV can be more expensive if you keep your car a long time
But the sting in the tail with ICE used values is just around the corner, in another 3 to 4 years Michael. They will become considerably less sought after, and this will be reflected in their worth..... One reason for that will be the upcoming roll out of Clean Air Zone charging schemes in towns and cities.... Yep, it's coming. Paris and Berlin have already banned diesel cars from their city centres..... It'll be here before too long....
Don't think he forgot. He literally said at the start of the video he was checking list prices. Very tricky to compare like for like costs if you're going to include searching for deals and would be a much longer video. You can find deals on just about everything, though I do take your point that there are probably more for ICE currently.
Do a chart comparing EV and ICE models with the same driving range.
Government purchase grants? The current fuel price challenges? Potential future electricity costs? Taxes that won't be 'zero' forever? You've taken a 'snapshot' in the middle of an energy crisis scenario that puts EV's in demand and ICE on the back foot. If you did this comparison 3 years ago (or do it again in three years time) the outcomes will be different. Your assessment is correct.... BUT....
Where have you been hiding? You've got that completely wrong. Petrol and diesel has been falling but electricity has doubled and is set to go up 80% in October and another 50% in january. Evs are on the back foot now.
Could I use my ev as a mobile battery storage for my house?
Charge at off peak rate and discharge during peak rates when available?
Or charge at my work at no cost then plug into home to supply power?
Thanks for any advice
In theory yes. In practice, probably not.
The electric car I ordered in October 2021 which turned up in March is now 30% more expensive from the same dealer than what I payed when I ordered it in October.
my wife was looking at a polo. Needs an automatic but only a base spec. £21.5k !
So a petrol Niro costs £27.745. Minus the middle example of a 3 year old one £20.885 means a loss of £6860. An electric Niro costs £36.245. Minus the middle example of a 3 year one £28400 means a loss of £7845. Eh?
spot on buddy.....slightly bias video IMO. sure your depreciation is lower pound on pound (about 21% vrs 26% in your example) but you've still got best part of 8.5k list price to make up. By my non-white wall of truth to make ev's cheaper your "servicing" and "road tax" and "all that" would need to equate to about 7k over 3 years..last time I checked servicing and road tax wasn't anywhere near that.
@@M0nTheFish In my first year of ownership it's cost me £216 in electric to do 13000 miles. In diesel (my old car) that same mileage would have cost me £1989 (given an average of £1.70 a litre) There's more to it than that though. I looked at cost per month and basically my finance payment is the same as what i was spending on diesel.
How can I argue when someone says 13k miles costs £216. So basically the video which has no mention of fuel costs is totally based on fuel costs…..interesting,
@@M0nTheFish I guess if you have a cheap night-time tariff it makes sense. But many people don't have or cannot get one now which would mean charging at normal rates.. Going up and up. Plus to do long distance driving you would have to use public chargers which are getting more expensive also. Personally I am still unsure, if you have the right setup it's great but if you don't it's still a bit of a mess.
@@jammymark Must have been some poor / avg mpg you had before then?
Think I will just run my dirty diesel till it dies, as millions of others are going to do. Only pay £30 tax and get 50+mpg. For the miles I do no way going to pay 34k + for a longer range EV like the MG, as much as i would like one. And no one cares about power if they are buying the models you are using (except maybe BMW), so that is no justification for paying more for electric.
Me too, my 2015 civic does 60mpg and is worth 11k , I paid 8k 4 years ago lol.
I am retired and do very little mileage these days so my running costs are way lower than the repayments would be on a new EV. Also because I do so little mileage I reckon that my carbon footprint is still lower than if I bought a new EV.
@@eclecticcyclist exactly. As long as there arent any big repair Bill's we are far better off running old cars and leaving the evs to those who do the miles, we can pick up a cheap old used ev in 5 years or whatever if it makes sense then.
I find I've done more miles on my ebike than my car.
@@FlyingFun. During the Covid lockdown I did twice as many miles on my conventional bike than I did in my car. I even find myself riding 20 miles to go shopping these days.
@@eclecticcyclist I'd just got back into cycling and built an ebike before lockdown and it was fantastic, really quiet roads and I went on some big rides to new places and really noticed how much cleaner the rivers and lakes were than usual.
Cycling is very therapeutic away from traffic.
The other side to it is if you are buying used buy petrol or diesel
Remember EVs don’t have manual transmissions so should be compared with ICE automatics for price.
Automatics cost more over in the UK, mainly because they are the twin clutch DSG types, not traditional autos. EVs dont actually have a transmission at all. All the extra money is due to the battery packs, yet they are simpler to make and manufacture. We are being gouged for EVs.
good point
@@handlesarefeckinstupid That is not factual.
Another, interesting and convincing video - thanks! I like your sensible, down to earth style... 👍
My Fiat 500e convertible is about twice the price of the petrol version..But mine has a lot more tech and trying to find an equivalent ICE version is impossible. Night time electricity is a fraction of petrol costs , running costs are lower and residuals are better. ..
So what did you achieve? A lot more tech at twice the price big deal.
for me personally, this argument is a mute point. both cars r gonna be uneconomical to repair in about 15 years time. in 15 years, i would have paid roughly 13k€ more for gas and road tax than the EV. i reckon the gas car would have broken down more often since it has tons of moving parts and quite a lot of sensors. the battery of the EV can degrade for 30% and it will still be useful since most of the models u mentioned have 40+KWh and my current car(which is my only car) had 27kWh new. i actually have great conditions when it comes to holding back battery degradation but i think that age alone has an effect. therefore, the EV that costs 10k more is still cheaper to own, has luxuries like preheat, loads of power, vehicle to load(if we are talking about the upcoming Niro), low center of gravity... and most importantly, if i want to go to a lake 20 miles away from my home once a month or 20 times a month, it bearly makes a difference to me financially.
I’m not sure how you think you would of paid £13k more for gas car. 😂😂Wild over exaggeration.
If it's a mute point nobody's going to hear you
A pity you didn't include the Nissan Leaf @ £25k upwards, and a new mid spec petrol Focus, Astra or Golf at £25 to £28k.......
Leaf is an old car now. Not quite comparable.
No direct ICE equivalent to a Leaf is there? A Pulsar might come close but not exactly the same.
Hi, I'm not knocking the extra power of equivalent EVs, but they are (I believe?) heavier as well.
I know you didn't count it as a plus, but we all did, I think..
I think you can't really haggle on a new EV, can you on a new ICE?
The White Board of Truth needs its own jingle.
I could buy and run a used eg.Peugeot 208 for ten years, for less than a basic new car for £15-20k. So why buy anything other than a used eg.208?
Do the PCP balloon prices assume this lower depreciation? If so, the monthly payments might actually be lower.
Disposal of the batteries are worse than you'd think.
Unfortunately the price of electric rising and at a massive rate , I’ve decided to keep my diesel car as it would be far cheaper to keep
Mini is a good comparison as coopers s and mini electric v2 are similar
The upcoming price of electricity is surely going to be changing the amount of running costs for EVs quite dramatically?
Not really as EVs are more efficient.
@@starvictory7079 cool thanks.
I pay 7.5p per kwh to charge my EV on my overnight tariff. This gives me a per mile cost of around 2 to 2.5p per mile. The cost of charging at home would need to rise at least 6 to 8 fold, to be on a par with petrol. The EV will retain it's running cost advantage for a long time yet...... Sure, public charging costs will probably increase, but as the average EV owner might only use public charging 5 or 6 times a year, on average, the additional cost pales into insignificance when you charge at home 95% of the time....
@@Brian-om2hh really interesting, just had a quick look online and overnight EV tariffs seem to have been frozen. Sounds great if you have one already.
@Brian What about the higher than normal rates during the day your paying extra . To make any savings on those tariffs you must have to utilise the max of 28kh every night for the tarrif to be worth while. So doing fairly long commutes each day. For someone who does only daily commutes of 30miles or so the likes of octopus go tarrifs would be pointless as majority of energy use would be at an inflated rate compared to normal tarrifs
It shouldn’t be narrowing it should be cheaper than a v6 model if anything normal cars have added 5k to there pricing over 2 years it’s ridiculous battery raw product shot up from 1.50 dollars per kw to 4 dollars just because of a deliberate restrictions of raw materials, someone is making a fortune now
Will the 250% increase in electric ( and probably more later on ) make the running costs compatible with ICE cars as an efficient 1.0 litre petrol can do 50-60 gallon especially with Fuel prices are coming back down . (£ 1.67 near me ) ? A 3 year deal usually includes a warranty so maintenance is also negated as an additional cost. High initial purchase verses Depreciation was always countered with but look at the running costs. Much more difficult now .
Most people charge overnight on a cheaper tariff. My overnight cheap rate has just gone up 50% to 7.5p per k/wh which means I only get around 300mpg instead of the 500mpg I was getting .
@@jammymark who’s your provider I can’t find any EV tariffs at the moment?
@@adammachin likely Octopus Energy with their Go tariff
Enjoy your high resale value while you can because when EV supply can catch up with demand (sometime in the next ten years?) we could see a fall in new car prices. Tesla have engineered so many cost savings into the manufacture of their cars that Sandy Munro estimates that it costs less for Tesla to manufacture a Model3 in America than it costs Ford to manufacture the Mach-E in Mexico.
Cost to run EV per mile at home [after October cap increase based on 51p/kWhr domestic tarrif] is 22p/mile.
Charging at a public charge point or service station will be considerably more.
Cost to run petrol car per mile [based on £1.80/litre] is 15.2p/mile
Cost to run a diesel car per mile [based on £1.90/litre] is 12.2p/ mile...
The price of domestic electricity is going to stop the EV market in its tracks.
Only if you don’t move to the best EV tariff.
@@ElectricVehicleMan Few do... and even then the price per kWhr is going to skyrocket in October... the wheels are going to come off unless we can force the Governments around the world to lower wholesale energy prices.
I have a plugg in hybrid as 90+% of the journeys I do which can't be done on a bike or walking are less than 36 miles which is the hybrid's range... but the domestic tariff means it's cheaper not to charge and use petrol which is ridiculous!
@@ChrisBrummitt Not on Go it isn’t. A tenth of petrol.
@@ElectricVehicleMan Wow, please tell me more. I am on a variable tariff with OVO, using an installed Project EV 7kWhr charger.though my car is limited to 3.4kWhr charging rate- OVO don't provide Economy 7 or an equivalent so I have been looking at Octopus as I'm waiting for a solar PV with battery storage to be installed and want to be ready.
Many thanks,
Chris
[Please could you reply or send me a DM with the contact email/ tel no. for Go? I can find a website for Go Electric but that appears to be limited to the Yorkshire/Derbyshire/Midlands, not the NE.]
what about the higher cost of electricity coming our way, charging at home will be significantly more expensive to charge a ev, im due to get a vw id3 and im a bit worried about getting it
Not if you’re on the right tariff.
@@ElectricVehicleMan Do you think the ToD tariff will remain untouched?
Cant see it staying as it is, and I wonder if the providers can even afford to allow them to continue
So about 9/10K more for an EV over an ICE and dont forget to add in the extra cash to have a home charger fitted as well. I did the maths for my driving mostly long trips and 6000 miles a year and a EV was poor value. I work from home so my longer journeys are from when I am away so no home charging which means expensive fast chargers on the way. My insurance is 115 quid a year so much cheaper than an EV not even offset by the free RFL.
Pretty much came to the same conclusion David.
If you are somebody who regularly pays 30-40k for a new car (every 3 years say) then moving to an EV isn't too much of a leap depending on your circumstances.
My 2 x diesels both get over 50-55mpg, and I think the real 'savings' when converting are for those motorists who have really high annual mileage and stupidly low mpg.
You are right to factor in insurance as well, it's a significant jump.
Lights have gone off... It's a sign of the energy crisis upon us
Be plenty of cars hanging around come the Winter.
How does insurance compare?
Same as an equivalently priced/performance petrol car.
@@ElectricVehicleMan I guess I'd pay more..struggling along with a huge 86HP beast at the moment. £190 / year.
The gap is narrowing however its still a way to go and there is still No "Good deal " on any used ev or ice still. Like you said your 2.5 year old standard range plus can sell for over list 2.5 years on and 35k miles later. The markets bonkers. No good deal anywhere i dont care where you look.
I notice that your kia Nero ev is about €1000+ more expensive than here in NL.
Welcome to your brexit sir
No Mini example?
Petrol is about 16p mile at 50mpg , electric can be dearer I paid 75p /kWh which equals 20p mile
Prices coming together I imagine because they're deliberately increasing petrol car prices
A straight list price comparison isn't that helpful as there are many variables which would affect decision making. Are you a company car driver who does a high mileage, who would also benefit from the 0% BIK, maybe a private buyer who could charge at home, or would you need to use public chargers?
18 months ago, I changed my car and bought a 208. At the time I did a comparison with the e208, I can't remember the figures at the time, however, the e208 wasn't financially viable for me. I've just been on Peugeot's website to configure both in GT spec with no options and on the "Just add fuel" PCP :
208 130 auto : OTR £26,470 - PEU UK contribution £2,350, Deposit £5k - monthly £321 balloon £13k
e208 136 EV : OTR £33.445 - PEU UK contribution £650 Deposit £5k - monthly £501 balloon £17k
The insurance part of the monthly payment on both would be £31, the servicing plan element £16 208 v £8 e208.
The other point which made it a complete non starter for the EV was charging. I can't charge at home like about 30-35% of the population. Number of fast chargers in this town at the time, population 60k, none, nil zero. 18 months later number of fast chargers, none, nil, zero! Even with fast charging available, due to the low mileage I do, the fuel cost savings would be minimal.
ill stop you there YES
A bit closer on the price of the Fiesta out by a couple of Thuo but miles out on the Golf, both low estimates however.
The golf is 36k so spot on?
BYD and MG are coming.. they’re going to shake it up.
Just had a thought on you last video about selling your car , your price loss of 1500 pounds is no actually true in money terms now
Am I right in thinking tyres for Electric cars, are a lot more expensive?
Can use any tires you like.
Electric cars are a lot of fun to drive. Running costs much less
maybe lease pricing has messed with peoples’ heads and all this EV bashing with ‘so much more than petrol cars’ is based on ‘in my day a new car was 12 shillings and sixpence’
Now do a whole life cost comparison.
Not really possible just now, as huge changes to ICE car values are coming in the next few years....
@@Brian-om2hh as petrol goes up ice cars will be less and less attractive I guess, but electricity prices are going up too.
Some Old ice cars prices might go up because there will be fewer of them but most likely just drop through the floor .
Being a low mileage family I do question the benefits of electric considering the price compared to just running our old civic 1.5 diesel which gives 60mpg.
@@Brian-om2hh Disagree, you simply project at current prices. We know that prices can change but it is for comaprison purposes only.
What happened to the lights?
Stay away from the light!
@@ElectricVehicleMan isn't that vampires...?!
..bet you love Whitby ... !?!?!
Thank you
If you can't non-subsidized costs then the electric cars are not any more expensive, but they are a environmental disaster.
The electric car is something like your phone. It will take about 500 full recharge cycles.
This can be extended a little bit by not fully discharging and not fully charging for a little while.
But at the end of the day you are stuck with a battery that will cost you tens of thousands of dollars. Make the car an economic right off and be a disposal nightmare, not counting the procurement nightmare for batteries alone.
On top of this, the range of an electric vehicle is an issue in big countries or in places where you're not handy to either recharge stations or your local supermarkets.
As well as all of this, then the recharging of electric vehicles suburb by suburb and will require a complete retuning of the entire electric grid network because the cost of putting transport into the energy requirements via electricity is astronomical.
Power as a standalone figure is fairly meaningless - power to weight ratio would be better for equivalency.
Not for cost.
@@ElectricVehicleMan another point is - many people don't want, and, let's be honest, nobody needs - the crazy performance of most EVs!
However, you get in anyway - and you have to pay for it...!
I watched a review recently of yet another 'family SUV' which was described as NOT having sporty performance..
..it did 0 to 62 mph in 5.9 seconds!!!
W.T.F....!?!?
You lost me at list price. Who pays list price, even if you wanted to, it will likely only be sold at a dealer price.
Theoretically, the list price of my EV was 10k more than the petrol equivalent, after comparing the dealer purchase price on like for like, the difference was about £5k. I reckon with petrol prices as they are, I will have broken even in around 2 or 3 years.
That's before considering depreciation voodoo.
People will be kicking themselves in few weeks if they miss the opportunity to buy and invest in Crypto as it's retracing....BE WISE
So you calculation demonstrates that you should by a second hand petrol car. Alternatively lease a petrol which cost me £4k for 2 years. Finally if you are rich buy a Tesla ?
You still are no where near being able to fill it up once and drive over 700 miles without stopping, how about a Dacia Jogger family car 7 seats automatic £15,000 to 18,000 show me an EV that can even manage 150 miles on a charge in the dark at 0 Degrees temperature for that. maybe in ten to twenty years.
Who drives 700 miles without stopping?
My Hyundai Kona Electric drives fine in -15 here in Sweden. I get about 350 km range then.
So 0 degrees in the dark is nothing. That's called November or December.
My Model 3 will easily do 150 miles in the dark in the norwegian winter (-15C). The whole 700 mile thing is really overrated in most cases. When you properly question people you will find that most actually stop every 2.5 to 3 hours on a long journey, which is no problem with a long range EV. And the 35-40 mins needed to recharge quickly disappears once you've taken a pee, bought a coffee and eaten a sandwich.
The inconvenience is actually not during the journey, it's at the end: If you don't have destination charging then there is a genuine inconvenience with an EV, as you have to add an extra 30-45 mins to the journey to make that extra charge. At that point an ICE has a benefit, especially for someone who travels a lot with work and doesn't have a lot of spare time in the day.
I would agree completely that the Dacia's are a total bargain. They are basically disposable cars at that price.
@@jimh5031 I just ran round from central Norway to the UK (and back) this summer. Going out was 3000km in 3 days, so i think it's fair to say that an EV is not an impediment to long distance travel. As for time and stops, i can tell you that i made it from Stockholm to Hamburg (730 miles) in just over 13hrs, with 4 stops. The longest stint between stops was 214 miles and 3.5 hours, and that used 90% of the battery. Total charging time was around 110 mins (plus exit/entry to the motorway). I would be lying if i said i couldn't do it faster with an ICE, but i would still have needed at least 2 decent stops (30-40 mins) on the journey. So the EV didn't really cost all that much extra time.
For someone who doesn't do long journeys, i would definitely recommend looking at an EV. Especially if you can have home charging installed. If you tend to go to places over 120 miles away which don't have easy destination charging, then you will need to tolerate a little inconvenience i admit. But if it's only a couple of times a year then the cost savings (and convenience of home charging) are probably worth it. If you go every 2-3 weeks, then yeah they might not be.
@@15bit62 I would buy an EV if they were actually green and saving the planet. A lot of the latest evidence is suggesting they are WORSE than ICE cars which is devastating and worrying.
You still insist on not having lost any money on your three year old Tesla by saying you’ll get the same back. A couple of minutes later you rightly add, though, that everything is more expensive in the world.
So I’ll say it again: there’s no way that three year old forty thousand pounds will buy you the same amount of anything today. So yes, you have suffered depreciation.
Only if replacing the car.
Yes, they are. Cheapest EV I can buy is about £5k for a 2011 car, cheapest Petrol I can get is a couple hundred quid.
Its a crazy word
So ev have kept there price but are people buying them"
They wouldn’t keep their price if people weren’t.
Ev are motor powerful because they are heavier.
he did not pay his electric bill so they cut him off thats why the lights went out heheheeheh
I doubt it. EVM has his own large storage battery, charged via the solar on his roof. He could have the lights back on in seconds, using his battery....
The electric cars are not more powerfull because electric cars lose power as they go faster. opposite to a petrol car.
Hello mate
You are clearly biased. On one hand you say extra HP would cost premium, but you somehow forget that so would extra range or faster recharge. Your own screenshots show similar or higher depreciation on niro EV, yet you claim otherwise. And you forgot one massive cost - insurance. Thats calculated from a price and will be much higher for ev versions.
And there’s one hidden cost - petrol version base price is artificially increased in some countries by not selling the real base version of the vehicle there. Look for C4 in eastern EU and you will see that you can buy non ev version for less than half of ev.
Btw I’m not against EVs. My model 3 is on a way from a factory. I’m against ev bias (or any bias).
The Niro EV was £32500 at launch and is now £30k 3 years later! How is that higher depreciation?
What are you saying I’m bias on? That EVs aren’t more expensive? They clearly are.
@@ElectricVehicleMan You addressed single complaint and again showed bias by rounding in the unfavourable direction for ICEs/favourable for BEVs (again as in the video).
As for the numbers: 32.9-27.8 = 5.1k depreciation for the EV. Non-evs started at 25.7k (new 3 years ago) and that's 25.7-20.4 = 5.3k depreciation.
@@petrkubena 27.8 was the cheapest eNiro on the market, most were well above £30k still. Go look.
🤦♂️
@@ElectricVehicleMan Whatcar article from 2018/2019 "LRRP price range £25,715 - £41,745L
I would not buy an electric car or even want one ever they are shit you are all being fooled if you believe they are the future, certainly not in the next 25 -50 years
Yeah they sh*t innit!
Times5
Eshtop
I believe electric vehicles will never be widely used. They are too expensive and complicated. Most people live in apartments and won't have easy access to charging points and since apartments in the city costs the same as 3-4 large houses on the countryside, the listing price for EVs is too much for some low-income citydweller like myself.. It saddens me, because EVs are cool AF.
Was the ZS EV the standard range version. I'm sure the long range version is over £30k
Cheapest version.