Steve Kirkham The reason why I am not fond of the Stormcloaks is because the Stormcloaks don't see how powerful the Aldmeri Dominion is, the empire will sort it out at some point, but it's not helping that the Stormcloaks are making the situation worse by creating a rebellion, Skyrim needs the empire to resist a future attack from the Thalmor.
Tuesday: killing you with your own daedric sword and bagging your body Wednesday: Destroying both the empire and the aldmeri dominion whith an army of dragons
I believe that with the dragonborn the stormcloaks would be able to defend against the dominion, I say that because the dragonborn could create an army of dragons and make deadric armor for the troops, and said dragonborn could train the troops and make them extremely dangerous.
Hammerfell alone could fend off the Aldmeri Dominion. If the Redguards can, why can't the Nords? Besides, it would be impossible for the Thalmor to get pass Skyrim easily, seeing that Skyrim is surrounded by mountainous regions. There is only one way to Skyrim from Cyrodiil and that is the Pale Pass. A small and easily guarded way. Stormcloak assassins would ambush the Thalmor easily if a battle would take place there. If the Thalmor tries to enter Skyrim through Morrowind, it would be over before it even begins. The Red Mountain is a huge threat and its unstable eruptions would damage the Dominion before they could reach Skyrim. If they try to engage the Nords via naval battles, they have to get past the Sea of Ghosts in the East and they are forced to deal with the Hammerfell and High Rock Navies in the west. It would be impossible for the Thalmor to conquer Skyrim. The Nords alone had a history of fighting the elves and most of the time they prevail.
While being a devout stormclock supporter, I disagree with Ulfric killing the high king. Solitudes Court wizard claims that Toryg respected Ulfric so much, that if he asked him to leave the Empire, that he would of done it.
The last time Ulfric trusted the Empire, he conquered an entire city for it and got betrayed right after and sent to jail to be tortured for weeks by the Thalmor ambassador Elenwen while the Jarl of Markath was busy committing war crimes against the Forsworn that he would later blame on Ulfric. You can't blame him for never trusting this disgusting Empire after that.
@@erikho6936 You shouldn't think about things with such simplicity. Torygg was an impressionable ignorant dude in his 20s who only cared about pleasing his wife. He may be moved by Ulfric's words, but all his counselors who have great economic and politic interests in the Empire would have convinced him to not do anything anyway.
@@dwight3555 You read that dossier......He went turncoat and became a fucking thalmor asset. He DID not care about his people. Even after he stop contracting the thalmor with updates he still bogged down Skyrim long enough for the AD to push on the redguards and should the redguards fall Skyrim would get steamrolled by the elves.....
I'm not fully sure I can consider Ulfric a true Nord, mainly because of how racist he is. To him, there's Nords, then there's everyone else, and everyone else is beneath Nords. That's the main reason why I join the Imperial Legion every time I played Skyrim, because of my real-life feelings of not wanting a High King who believes in that kind of bigotry and racism on the throne.
When I see Ulfric and heard his story I heard the story of a man who lost the things that were most dear to him and saw his home being stolen from him. His father executed he cried out for justice he tried to give his people a chance and they turned their noses down at him. It's no wonder he did what he did.
They both kept their honor, also the thu'um rules are only for the greybeards... so if say I learned it from them and then left to use it on the current high king of skyrim I technically didn't break their rules because I'm not a greybeard anymore. Still a dick move though.
"not all acts of goodness are always wise and not all acts of evil are always foolish" this statement describes Ulfric very well in my opinion, Ulfric is not a bad man he can be ignorant and short sighted at times but the fact he goes to sovangard when he dies and after that speech he gives to Galmar he definitely is a true nord. Also I don't think he is racist, he is not bothered about you being and elf while joining stormcloacks and he has few non nords as housecarls in other Cities. Although remember he is not a God or a perfect man like Galmar wants you to believe
"Everybody knows Ulfric, he's kind of a big deal." That triggered me. That huge ass plot point at the beginning is that Ulfric killed the High King *USING THE VOICE* yet nobody presumes him Dragonborn and everyone treats the PC like he's the first to shout in centuries. Oh and you're totally supposed to use the shout for war purposes. The thu'um was given by Kynareth to mankind specifically so they could go to war against the dragons.
Miraak | Well the way the voice works is that if you are in tune with the true meaning of a word, like you understand it in a fundamental level and speak it with enough power to project that understanding to the world, the world understands and materializes it's meaning in the the physical plane. So if you shout "fus" or force, a literal force appears in front of you. The way the Dragonborn works is that he absorbs a dragon's fundamental understanding and possesses the power naturally through his own Dragon soul. Therefore he can shout intuitively and without training.
Actually, that's because every Nord knows Ulfric studied with the Greybears for years. Also, self-defense is an okay excuse for using the shouts in combat. After all, if trolls and other invaders enter High Hrothgar, the Greybeards have no compunction in using shouts on them.
Jackson Smith, it was Kyne, the Nordic version who granted the Thu'um. Kynareth and every other Imperial god should have stayed out of Skyrim but no, because the devs decided to cheat us out of a unique pure Nordic culture.
"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil! I fight for their wives and children, whose names I heard whispered in their last breath. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing! I fight... because I must."―Ulfric Stormcloak[src]
The Lore of The Elder Scrolls with respect to "Sovngarde" dictated by "Shor" himself specified that: *“Sovngarde can only be entered by a Nord, who dies valiantly in honorable combat.”* Which means that Ulfric and Torygg's duel was honorable!
@@xd666xd Precisely dude! Otherwise.. Ulfric, Torygg, Galmar or Rikke could not be found in Sovngarde. Some of those depending of course, by the actions of the player.
@@xd666xd "Jorunn Skald-King" only says: *“After dear Nurnhilde fell in battle, my brother and I threw back the invaders. Afterward, we disagreed on who should succeed our sister. I believed in diplomacy and wisdom. Fildgor believed in rule by force. I couldn't let him take the throne. When I won the throne, I was forced to exile Fildgor. He never forgave me for that. I assume he's returned to take the throne. I wonder what he promised his Stormfist and Orc allies? I need to think about this. Please, tell Thane Mera that I'm fine.”*
@@xd666xd At no time Jorunn specifies, that not killing the opponent in a traditional duel is a rule. For what is simply implied, that he exiled his brother "Fildgor Orcthane" by his own decision. But killing Fildgor was also an option for him.
Yep! Not killing Fildgor was Jorunn's decicion only. Ulfric is simply not so.. naive as Jorunn was. After all, Fildgor later came back, desecrate the body of his late older sister, "Queen Nurnhilde", and even tried to kill Jorunn, something that would never have happened, in the event that Jorunn had killed Fildgor when he had the opportunity to do so!
I dunno, Ive got a fair bit of sympathy for all of them, really. The kids are bored out of their skulls with literally nothing to do (not even a doll or wooden sword is in that castle!). Can't say as I wouldn't be grumpy too, if I were a kid in that palace. Yikes. Proventus is entrusted with seeing potential dangers to the whole hold that Balgruuf might not, and bring those dangers to light. it's not an easy task, but he's dedicated and his heart is loyal. And as for Irileth, well, she's the one who has to stop Balgruuf from doing all the "hold my mead and watch this" stunts that Nord men are so fond of doing. You gotta admit that can NOT be an easy job, especially after he's had a few meads in him from sheer boredom. "Let's jump off the palace roof into the pools below!" You can see the job she has....... But, when you listen to the other Jarls in Skyrim, who also have Holds to manage and keep safe, Balgruuf is invariably spoken of with respect, "A good man" even if they don't personally agree with his views. He would be perfect to marry Elesif and settle the country down, the other Nords know and respect in a personal way and he's not a troublemaker who would go out and start another expensive war.
Agree to a duel and then use Unrelenting Force on them and see if they accept that. They won't. Shouting is a form of magic. Magic isn't accepted in duels ergo, shouting isn't accepted in duels.
I think the reason Torryg implies that Ulfric was dishonourable is because Ulfric knew that Torryg wasnt a warrior and that he would easily destroy so in that regard Ulfric didn't go there for a fair duel but with the intention to kill without risking his own life.
MiMiC Also Torryg can't use the voice so in a way it was as if Ulfric "brought a gun to a knife fight". He used a gift given to combat dragons against a man he most likely could have beaten in "fair" physical combat. It shows a clear lack of respect for the high King on a very personal level.
MiMiC i think Nords would see him not being a warrior as a problem cause you cannot be king of the Nords if you are just an appointed puppet of the Empire which is what some people thought of him with his speeches on the Empire. You cant be a king of a warrior like people when you are not a great warrior yourself
MiMiC also Ulfric says he killed Torryg as a way of showing how weak of a king he was and not worthy of being High King of Skyrim which in a society such as the Nords is a true statement
MiMiC skyrim kings are ment to be strong don't get me wrong I'm for empire but the duel was fair and allowed but... I think the empire is best bet against the thalmor. At same time I don't join sides for 2 reasons 1. Empire tried to cut my head off 2. Companions don't involve themselves in politics
Actually the whole thing with "a high king must Accept the duel" is not entirely true. However it is more of an unsaid law as declineing the offer is a great dishonor and a sign of unworthyness Declineing the duel would basically be the same as abdicateing
@@herowesley1804 A Nord is not judged on how he lived, But on how he Died! -Ysgramor if he hadn't accepted he would have essentially been forced to Abdicate as he would be refusing to accept a challenge to his authority. to remain as High King would have been to become a Tyrant as he would have lost his legal claim in the eyes of the other Jarls and His People. He would not be denied access to Sovngarde.
People always bring up Ulfric’s Thalmor connection as stated in the embassy dossier, then just gloss over the bit at the end where they state that “a stormcloak victory is also to be avoided.”🤔
@@wuj0-themanthemyththelegen856 Except they are not? Did you not see the ending of Dragonborn? You are literally teleported back to Nirn, get out of here with that BS lol.
@@wuj0-themanthemyththelegen856 The Redguards in Hammerfell resisted the Thalmore just fine in direct confrontation with out ANY support from the Imperial Legion. If you think Nords couldn't hold off a bit of elves who literally need to cross the sea just to get to them your way out of your mind.
Ulfric is not a murderer, he bested Torygg in a duel. Torygg even admits this, albeit in a sore-loserish fashion ("I faced him fearlessly - my soul and honor untainted. Can Ulfric say the same?" - Not 100% certain this is the exact quote, I know the "I faced him fearlessly..." bit is correct, not sure about the rest). Honestly, the whole Civil War is why I personally love Bethesda's story telling, for many reasons. For starters, neither side is ideal, both have their disadvantages: Both sides are racist (Stormcloaks hate anything that isn't a Nord, and the Imperials bow before the Thalmor, who hate anything that isn't a High Elf), both sides have leaders that leave much to be desired (Ulfric is a douche, and General Tullius who was going to willingly execute you despite having nothing to do with the Stormcloaks), and both sides would leave the Empire weakened. To explain my final disadvantage, think about it. It doesn't matter who wins in the end, the Empire is going to be weakened. Think about how many soldiers, both Stormcloak and Imperial, have died over the course of the war? Plus, if there's the fact that if the Stormcloaks win, Skyrim secedes from Tamriel, and if the Imperials win, Skyrim becomes demoralized. It's really a lose-lose for everyone. And the best part of the whole story is the fact that neither Ulfric nor General Tullius is the villain of the story; it's Elisif. Think about it? Who was the first person to claim that Ulfric murdered Torygg? Elisif. Who spread the word that Torygg was murdered instead of bested in battle? Solitude, presumably under Elisif's order. Who truly benefits the most in all of Skyrim from the idea that Torygg was murdered? Elisif. Think about the power she gained from his death. She became Jarl of Solitude, and with the support of the Empire, she's likely to become High Queen, where she's likely to become a "puppet" of the Empire, while getting to live lavishly. She gains so much from this Civil War, which all started with one single lie. Now, you could argue that she's so distraught from her husband's death, that this reaction and believing that her husband was murdered makes sense... except it doesn't, for one simple reason: She's a Nord, one who would know all about the traditions of the Nordic people, especially given her position, heritage, and access to knowledge. In the end, General Tullius and Ulfric, regardless of who wins, got played by the so called Elisif the Fair.
Torygg said something about his fate inescapable yet honor unstained, but you had the gist of it -'J I had a similar thought on the subject of Elisif a while back... but under further investigation, i've concluded that she is not smart enough to have such a plan to take power. she openly regards Nord traditions as foolishness, and has her orders questioned by her steward, who she submits to his judgement... she is a pawn, but one in a position of power, and I feel that when her Husband, Torygg died in an honorable and ratified Nord Duel (of which she finds foolish) she was in a volatile emotional state, and now, with the mantle of Jarl, she called out in rage for the death of Ulfric, and labeled him a murderer, escalating the civil war. ... The Civil war was already happening before Torygg died, after Ulfric was released from prison and became Jarl of Eastmarch, he rejected the WGC and the Thalmor forced the Imperial Legion to correct him... just like they did in the markarth incident.
Didn't read anything entirely. Tullius probably didn't even notice the thing that was going on in the background, that the Imperial Officer just went "Fak da list, send 'em to de Block."
That doesn't make any sense, she _already_ had a lavish life, as wife of the high king. Arguably even better, because it's unlikely that she had any real responsibilities.
it was legal and technically fine and torryg says so himself that ulfric had killed him by tradition but as im pretty sure MrRhexx said he also says he would have tried becoming independent if ulfric asked. Instead ulfric became very power hungry and aggressive and so instead of asking first he shouts his ass and then stabs him in the chest. Its a very cunt move but technically he did it right.. plus ulfric ends up in Sovngarde so theres that, he clearly was good enough to go there but it was still cunty on his half, and if you read the thalmor reports it seems very obvious that it was there plan for ulfric to start a civil war and do all this shit to try and waste the empire's resources.. you can find them in the chest when you goto the embassy.
Thing is, ending up in Sovngarde has nothing to do with being "good". It's about upholding nordic traditions, and being an honorable warrior. I'm a stormcloak supporter myself but Ulfric wasn't "good enough" to end up in sovngarde, he was honorable enough. A little pedantic but an important distinction nonetheless.
Ulfric didn’t need to challenge torygg to a duel in the first place and should campaigned further for his cause. It’s not illegal but unethical since he knew he would win so in that sense, it’s basically murder.
what everybody always seems to think is that ulfric killed torygg to become high-king. But that wasnt his reason for killing torygg (as evident by him fleeing the scene; if he realyl thought that he would become high-king this way he would have stayed). Ulfric wanted to show the Nords that they are reigned by a weak king that obides foreign laws even if they go straight against nordic tradition and law and that he is going to put and end to it. To make his point he had to duel Torygg AND also kill him. so sry guys... u are missing the point entirely.
joe the sheep thing is that Ulfric killing Torygg doesn’t make Torygg weak it makes Ulfric stronger. Ulfric would had inevitably won that fight because he had use of the Thu’um while Torygg didn’t. It’s as simple as that. You would have had a point if Ulfric won strictly by marshal ability rather than a supernatural force. It would have been no different if Ulfric was challenged by Savos for High King than Savos promptly blasting Ulfric into dust with a light bolt. It was not a fair fight. And Torygg knew he wouldn’t win yet he fought anyway. That takes sand. Besides that strength doesn’t always mean strength of arms. It also means the ability to lead your people into prosperity. And all the Jarls except Torygg and Barlgruff appear incapable of doing that since those are the only towns where we don’t see gross incompetence in the leadership. Riften’s Jarl is a gullible fool being lead by the nose by a scheming murderer. Winterhold’s Jarl wanted to get rid of the only source of income for his town in the College. Windhelm had a necromantic serial killer on the loose and untapped potential for the war effort in the Dark Elves, a race known for their proficiency in the magic arts and untapped potential in the Argonians a race known to produce some of the most lethal of all assassins. Morthal had a vampire uprising going on with none the wiser literally 100 feet from the main gate. Markarth was infiltrated by psychotic Daedra worshippers and the ringleader ran the fucking prison and the Jarl’s own advisors saw through this. The Jarl of Dawnstar literally believed that the dragons were coming back because Talos was angry at the Imperials and would disappear once Ulfric was on the throne. And Falkreath’s leadership is a literal corrupt, lazy lout who delegates all leadership duties to his advisors. It appears Torygg was the only thing holding Skyrim together because after he died the entire province became overrun with Daedra worshippers, necromancers, vamps, and bloodthirsty bandits. And ain’t shit changed when Ulfric took over.
for the nords the thuum is a weapon and those who weild it are already heroes just for being able to use it. Using a thuum in duel is also not prohibited by the Nord folk. Its prohibited by the greybeards. An important difference. Also Torygg could have learned to use it too and thats probably 1 main reason Ulfric even used it. In days of old every Nord king could do it but Torygg can not. Its just 1 more point to show the ppl that Torygg is weak. about your assessment concerning the Jarls: You are aware that it has to be like that for gameplayreasons and therefore cannot be used as an argument? Its like saying that bandits are the main population of Skyrim. Clearly u need more bandits than merchants or else you would run out of them in just a couple of hours playtime. Also claiming that Torygg would have somehow changed all this is really farfetched. Yeah Torygg would have surely walked into Morvaths lair and farted him to death before anyone knew what was going on.... yeah sure.
Well, I guess the real question to ask on a larger extent is: Are the Greybeards true Nords? They are some of the only the ones that have the ancient art of the Th’uum, considered a Nordic art/power. Disregard the fact that Shouts come from Dragons, many Nord Warriors learned how to Shout. Then Jürgen Windcaller restricted the Th’uum to only be taught as a way of meditation, worship of Kyne and Akatosh. Now only the Greybeards can really Shout, where it used to widely known across Skyrim. Much time has passed since then, but Nords will be Nords. They love battle, glory, song and strength of actions. These are not things you’d find in the Greybeards, they’re probably the least like Nords of all Nords in Tamriel. They would admonish Ulfric for using the Th’uum for battle and personal glory, yet they sit in the Monastery on High Hrothgar and do *nothing* . Who cares what the Greybeards think? Sure they are wise and possess knowledge best left kept away from most men to prevent misuse, but they would have let Alduin destroy the world for no reason other than Alduin had the birthright as the World-Eater. They don’t have much of right to say what is or isn’t “allowed” or what is true to the Nordic way of life. So if you think the Greybeards are what Nords should strive to be, then of course Ulfric is wrong to use the Th’uum to usurp the Empire and kill Toryyg. However, how many Nord heroes of legend were known for following the status quo? For doing as they were told by others? Ysgramor, Olaf One-Eye, Talos? Yeah those guys that forged the way for mankind were all known to be peaceful men who didn’t challenge authority. Toryyg could have learned the Th’uum, right or wrong, but he sat idly by while another Nord dared to act.
The Greybeards are also old men, so it's not like they'll be able to get down and dirty. The fact only only truly know the way of the Thu'um already shows that they (and the Skaal) have a link to the past that the Nords don't. The Nords have, for the most part, been watered down. And the Greybeards aren't too keen on being like Ysgramor and mass murdering all who oppose him across an entire province.
Ulfric learned the Thu'um from the Greybeards because he was meant to become one. Nords don't generally even know about the Thu'um other than hyperbole from old legends. Barring that the Nords, or rather, the Atmorans, had a magical side to their culture, whereas modern Nords reject magic as a whole.
From what I remember, there is no rule against using the Thu'um in a duel, but is just unusual since most of Skyrim's citizens/denizens do not possess any Thu'um training at all.
Ulfric is the Jarl who was Promised For the night is dark and full of errors Seriously its a freezing country with zombie warriors, before the Dragonborn came along it was Ulfric who used this mysterious power and rise to the status of war hero, if he were in Game of Thrones he would the King in the North
@@yagwebalkabsh21 he did, he didn't cheat did he. He had the advantage as he took the time to learn the voice and he used it. It's fair. If toryg(?) knew it, he would use it to.
@@darkpixel1128 The point of the duel isn't to just beat down your foe. It's purpose is to send a message, to show a better leader. However, what Ulfric did was the complete opposite, he impatiently and ruthlessly used a power, that only few Nords can do, only showing that he won on a whim, not bc of his skills. Had he bested Torygg through marshal skills and strategy, the duel wouldn't have been an issue. By your logic, the Dragonborn could just challenge any person of power and instantly kill them with his Thuum bc he has the ability, in no way showing his traits needed for that position. Ulfric's duel back fired bc by taking the easy way to ending the fight, he only portrayed himself as a power hungry tyrant. It's why Torygg said is Ulfric's honour stained, for half of Skyrim would see him as a murderer for his actions.
Here's what I think. I think Ulfric is walking a line, Leaning from both ends of the grey. Fact is, he played the game on the line and made sure that he got the better hand out of the situation. See, it's almost like when Torygg says; My honor is unstained, can Ulfirc say the same? I don't think it's about what he did. I think it's about *HOW* he did. And the *OUTCOME* that came about. And if those in Soverngaurd are watching us, like they say, then Torygg can see what happens as a result of his death. And I don't know if there was any clear indication of if people KNEW that he accepted the duel. That's a factor too. Because if you think about it like this, in Soverngaurd, when you talk to the ghosts and such, they talk about this a lot. This whole mystery of life and how they see the world now they are dead and that they aren't the same. Literally. Like, they are in a distorted version, well, to us. ... it's a lot of smoke and mirrors. Not really a clear answer and it's all fake. And by fake I mean, the fact that there's a lot of fakeness going on when it comes to why people did what they did or why they are here. Cause if you noticed the ghosts are very wise, but the wisdom has a cynical tone to it. At least some of the ghosts. So that leads back to what I was saying before which was, it wouldn't matter if he used the shout or not. Cause Torygg knew what was going to happen, he knew that there was a way this was going to go down, there was a clear code that Ulfric played by, and he knew that Ulfric was able to wade in between the lines of what's wrong and right. And lastly, to back up this point, go to Ulfrics throne, and go talk to him, don't ask him questions just go up to him and then exit the conversation menu, yeah there's the typical "gods be praised," or "Be safe" but if you stand a while or maybe just walk into the palace of kings, when he's talking to his right hand, he actually responds to his right hands' questions with a question. In fact, the questions Ulfric asks are not questions as to war or ethics, but actually, show how anxsty (spelling?) he is as a person and what he thinks is right and why. He constantly banters between Skyrim Nordic tradition but he also is pro new age and clams. "THERE NEEDS TO BE CHANGE!" so he doesn't know what fault he's in nor what side of what's right or wrong, He keeps questioning himself and looking at the battle map thinking. "Does this really have to go down?" But he does it anyway. In my opinion, I think he did what was smart, and he knew what can and couldn't be done. Torygg never saw it coming...... MR. Rhexx, I love your skyrim videos!!!!
I get this. Completely. Whether Ulfric is really a murderer I guess we won't really know. He stands on a fine, non existent line. To some people, he's past the line as a murderer. To others he's past the line as a hero, and what he did was alright. And then to the last bit, he's on the line of murderer and a hero because technically, what he did is legal but in the current time period this type of dueling had been looked passed and well, kind of out dated. Something that wasn't exactly honorable and to that situation, a little iffy of okay and not okay. Basically, your right. Ulfric did know what he was doing and how things would turn out I have faith in that. But he also questions himself whether it was honorable, and to the people, where he stands next to the line. Past it? Behind? Or right on it? So really, whether he's a murderer or a true Nord, that depends on the person.
The shouts are perfectly legal in a duel.They are a skill you must learn, like one handed,two handed etc. Toryg wasnt a good fightet,and ulfric would have defeated him without using that shout
excatly he just wanted the throne. any body could beat torygg but they he was rightful king. ulfric was a prisoner of war then right after being freed he wanted the throne.. thats not fishy.
ETB_EmperorWolfYT wrong What would you do if your people are leaded by a corupted empire, a pupet of the thalmor Ulfric was a true nord, no mather who says what He had a chance to help his people, and took it If ulfric only wanted the throne he would not declare independente for skyrim, and he would have served the thalmor like toryg But no Ulfric was a true nord and im pround he is the high king now Skyrim needed ulfric, and he have not gave up to it
While perfectly legal using a shout on someone with no means to defend against it isn't exactly fair, but what makes it scummy is that they both knew he would win if a fair fight anyway, ulfric was much more skilled and was a warrior, Toryg was a noble with minimal if any skill, the fact ulfric used the shout against an opponent who they both knew he would kill without it doesn't speak highly of him, it speaks more of a man who wants to make a show out of crushing their opponent then it does a fair, just, and honorable ruler. It's sort of like saying "Yeah I know I'm fighting a guy who might as well be crippled because of the difference between us in skill and could kill him easily with my knife, but i'm going to shoot him in the head with this gun I brought to the fight anyway."
Duels were legal in Skyrim, and IRL, but only if they're NON-LETHAL. A duel to the death was illegal whether or not the participants agreed. High king Torygg agreed to a non-lethal duel, was killed through the use of thum in a pre-meditated act of murder, Ulfric them fled the capital as fast as he could and rallied his pre-prepared troops to conquer & plunder the loyalists. Which is a extremely traditional method of illegally usurping the throne. So in truth, it actually was both.
+Hjalti Early-Beard could you provide a source where it states that its illegal to kill the opponent? I'm genuinely curious, of course what Ulfric did would count as murder in the Empire's eyes (which is the point btw, he wants to break away from the Empires laws) but I can't find any source that says Jorunn couldn't kill his brother because it was illegal. He couldn't kill his brother because it was his brother. "With a broken heart, Jorunn exiled his brother and chastened the Stormfist clan for supporting him."
Nobody forced Torygg to accept his challenge. Ulfric and the nord people were gravely betrayed after the Markarth incident. To see that puppet High Vassal Torygg submissive behaviour after all that happened since the war where Ulfric fought valiantly, was enough. Shout him to space!
the duplicity of claiming to be there to talk with Torryg, when his intent was purely to kill him, clearly damns Ulfric as a murderer, that and fact he can be over heard saying simply that Torryg was a message is all the proof you need.
@@MrXuliestaccording to ancient nordic tradition it is lawful. It is still murder. He knew torig wouldn't stand a chance. The Morgan tong lawfully murder people that doesn't mean it wasn't murder. Ulfric only follows the old ways if it suits him. He killed Torig with a shout which violates the way of the voice. Shouting to kill someone is not a service to the gods. Ulfric just wants to be high king. Ulfric could have tried to convince torig to succeed from the empire. From what we know torig was open to talking about it.
@@MrXuliest Ulfric backed him into a corner and Torryg had to accept. Also just like the guy above me said just because a kill is lawful doesn't mean it's not murder.
@@christopheralvarado4544 Are you all suffering from down syndrome? Do you hear yourself "Just because a kill is lawful doesn't mean it's murder!" I guess we should have JUSTICE FOR OSAMA BIN LADEN then!!
I didn't know Jarlship was hereditary...maybe I did but never thought about it.. There should've been a quest where one of the Jarl's dies, or is dying and it turns out he had two kids, one being a farmer in the reach and the other being a court wizard or perhaps a bard and you have to decide which one. Neither know, they each have different political affiliations, and both do things differently. That would've been WAY rad.
Just a minor correction: Ulfric did not run away after winning. He sheathed his sword, and walked casually out because he followed ancient nord laws and tradition. The reason he got called a murderer is because the high king was the Empire's puppet. And when they lost their puppet, and it was pretty clear that a moot would make Ulfric High King, someone that the Empire would not be able to control. So he was branded unjustly by the Empire, a murderer even though he followed Skyrim tradition and law. Also, shouting is an ancient nordic thing as well. Before the greybeards, nords shouted. And this tradition and law was made before the greybeards rule came into play. So yes, the shout is allowed. The only thing NOT allowed in a duel, is magic. And shouting is not considered magic.
Incorrect; he fled the city. The guard force tried to arrest him, but the coward ran like a chicken, and thanks to Roggvir, escaped. He broke Nordic Duel Custom, he murdered Torygg. Torygg was High King by two points of Nord tradition. The first, being in place since the First Era, being the fact that he was the High King's son. The second, also being in place since the First Era, being the fact that he was elected through the Moot. Before the Greybeards, the Nords went against Kyne's wishes. Kyne taught the Voice to the Nords to oppose the Dragon Cult; not for personal gain. The Dragon Cult and their supporters already had the Voice and already used it for their selfish ideas; Kyne did not want that. Also, fyi, Shouting *is* considered magic.
@@candicethelastone7737 The Voice being used is not the reason it is murder. The reason it is murder is because these duels,, traditionally, do not result in death. Frostbite venom is marked as a poison in your inventory. The Thu'um is marked as magic. There is no reason to think otherwise. Would you argue using souls for enchanting isn't magical in nature?
@@candicethelastone7737 Speaking with Jorunn the Skald-King in ESO and reading ''The Crown of Freydis''. There isn't a whole lot on it, but these two, alongside with Ulfric being called out as a murderer, add up. True, but then again, that's game mechanics. Some things can be attributed to a petty error in coding. This, however, was done on purpose, hence why the entire ''Shout'' category is in the magic category to begin with.
@@candicethelastone7737 No, none of the combatants in those duels knew the Voice, at least, as far as we know. I suppose the Nords could, at best, consider it dishonorable to use the Voice, but I don't think they'd care that much.
The problem I have with ulfric is that people in solitude say if he asked king torryg ( I think I spelled his name wrong) that he would have declared independence so it was s power grab I think it was by Nordic tradition legal and honorable since he goes to sovngarde but a power grab nonetheless
It was definitely a power grab. Ulfric is a man of action, and he needed a symbol for his cause. Torygg was the perfect symbol for the empire, so he took it.
Saying that Torygg sympathised with Ulfric and looked up to him is very different to claiming that he would have definitely left the Empire had Ulfric asked. If Torygg was so sympathetic to this point of view, why didn't he break off ties with the Empire beforehand? If Torygg cared about Skyrim, why didn't he decline the duel which he knew he would lose and offer Ulfric an alternative, namely declare independence? Remember Sybille Stentor gave a reason why Torygg didn't declare independence from the Empire, "Torygg wasn't ready to let it fall apart."
Ulfric was here during the previous moot and voted in favor of Torygg. (Even if he talked a while about the empire). Elisif is not High Queen, she is the Jarl of Solitude. She will probably become High Queen after the Civil War if the Empire wins. Yes, half. Not all. Then it would be fair because he would have to make an actual case and act like a real king to rally peoples not by threatening them with his army.
The thing is, Ulfric just blackmailed him. There was little reason to actually kill him because he only had to beat him (which doesn't immediately equate to killing). Ulfric had an unfair advantage (the shout) while if the High King refused he would be forced to step down. This was obviously a power grab, since Ulfric did a lot of unecessary things such as challenging Torig to a duel in the first place. Also Ulfric is just a shitty person in general, murder or otherwise.
Merkky ikr all discussions between empire and stormcloak supporters always look the same. The empire supporters bring facts and lore and logic Stormcloak supporters : BUT SKYRIM I FORR DA NORDZ?!!!?
Robert Baratheon I definitely support the Stormcloaks but I don't just scream SKYRIM FOR NORDS! It was a dual between Ulfric and Torryg, but he did it to prove the High king as weak, because he is representation of Skyrim hence Nords, but also serving the Empire, Ulfirc tried to prove that Skyrim can survive without the Empire. I personally think though that if Nords and discontent then other races in the other regions of the Empire will be too, maybe if Bethesda carried on with the storyline it could show a string of rebellions against the Empire, gradually dissolving it, meaning the Thalmor have no puppet and have to get their hands dirty in an attempt to conquer the whole of Tamriel again, but if the other regions and races rebel, then they could also unify, form truces to fight the Thalmor together, and the Stormcloaks could just have been the start of this series of events bringing down the Thalmor... Essay over
the Thu'uum is among the oldest of human magics, learned solely in Skyrim, from a gods grace no less. Its proof you have a Gods backing. It's an ancient magic, and all magic is valid during a duel. Of course the shout is a valid thing in a Nord duel.
"1" is the name i give my videos when I upload them to UA-cam, at which point, i change the name to whatever they are supposed to have. It's odd that it gave you that name instead, this is the way i have been doing it since i started UA-cam.
1st of all... let's keep in mind that this takes place in a medieval-like age.. killing someone in a duel isn't murder no matter how you look at it. He accepted the duel because his honour bound him to it, just as how Ulfric's honour doesn't allow him to stand idly by and let the imperials and thalmors terrorise his people. Nords want to go to Sovngard when they die and they don't know if they can do that if they're kept from worshipping Talos. It's like wanting to be cared for when you get old and not thrown out into the street to live your last days as a hobo. Ulfric might be a jerk sometimes but he's definitely right with his cause, and he might have used the voice not to get an upper hand (because he probably would have won either way) but to remind people of the old kings.
1st of all, it was. In medieval europe, most duals were non-lethal. The Thalmor? Those guys that Ulfric decided to work with? Yeah nah, that's just a lot of nonsense.
he didnt decided to work for them, they torture him for days and he only gave up after the citadel had fallen, and they told him his info make that possible, which obviously is a lie. sure he is unwillingly helping the talmor goals, but so does the empire by fighting the stormcloacks... the talmor wants the civil war to deplete skyrim and imperial manpower. if the empire renounced to Skyrim like it did to Hammerfell. the empire, skyrim hammerfell will united as allies against the talmor.
+Louis B Cruise False. After the war direct contact between Ulfric and the Thalmor was established, cooperative and willing contact. Ulfric proved his worth by staging the Markarth Incident with the Thalmor, only when he was thrown in jail did he become uncooperative to them.
well actually 1 thing of what I typed is false, they didn't torture for days.. but for months... and about the contact part... the dossier refers that they stablished contact.. not direct contact... big diference there...
+Louis B Cruise Do the math. They established contact. And later on they say Ulfric became: ''uncooperative to *direct* contact.'' How do you *become* uncooperative to that which you never were part of?
It was legal, but that didn't stop the Empire from being mad their puppet got killed lawfully and would be replaced by a rightful king who would nope Skyrim out of the decaying Cyrodiilic psychopathic need for control. That's why they had to use mass propaganda and execute innocents for no valid reason like Roggvir.
I empathize more with the Stormcloacks because I'm from México, a country that was crushed and stripped out of their ancient traditions by an empire. I wonder what most European players think about this topic. Excep for players from actual Nordic countries, I suppose they always fight for the Nords XD
Yeah, man. A lot of people don`t understand the meaning of being oppressed in your own country. It gets even worst for Nords since they have bled for Empire for so long. Their history tells us that all the Nords have to do is to return to their old ways. 500 companions beat the living crap of the Snow Elves. Skyrim is only weakened by the Empire`s scheming.
I FusRoDah'd Ulfric at the Palace of Kings, with the dragonborn force perk from Mora. Literally shouted him apart, like what they say he did to the High King.
Lying to the grey beards who only thought you the thu'um only for praising the gods, not for seeking power. So he is a liar. He used the voice to shout a man apart without warning nor honor for a fair duel between nords. He is a dishonorable coward. He unwittingly accepts thalmor help and supplies to prolong the civil war. He is a thalmor asset that weakens the Empire for the inevitable coming Empire-Thalmor war. Banning Talos is only a temporary measure as the Empire was desperate to have a truce to recuperate and regroup because the capital and countryside was sacked and massacred by the thalmor a blow that will take a while to recover.
Like you've talked about before when it came to this topic, Torygg respected Ulfric so much that if Ulfric would ask him to walk away from the empire and truly become independent, Torygg would listen and agree on this point. Even so, if Ulfric wished for Torygg to step down he would also do the same. I don't mean this as it wasn't within Ulfric's right to duel him and beat him, but at the same time he could have prevented civilwar if he used his tongue to actually speak sence into Torygg and let the nords worship their one true god even if it would happen that Skyrim would have to fight the Dominion, because then Skyrim would also have been supported by the Hammerfell against the Dominion which would have been an interesting outcome. And like you meantioned before, the reason why the Empire banned Talos was because they were building up their army to fight another war against the Dominion and hopefully win this time. But they needed time and the Dominion knew that, so in conclusion Ulfric helped the Dominion by letting the empire fight the Stormcloaks and spill their own blood because it halts the rebuild of the empire's army against the Dominion. It was most likely not within Ulfric's mind to help the Dominion but he is quite ambitious to be able to see that which is most likely why he wanted to duel Torygg. I like how you jump back on this topic though, its a very interesting one and I hope that you will do another one about the Empire and the Stormcloaks!
Even if the dual was lawful I can't help but think that it was unfair and kinda dodgy. Ulfric knew that Torygg HAD to accept, if he didn't he couldn't go to Sovngarde, he would lose any authority and Ulfic could legitimately start his rebellion. If he accept, he dies, go to Sovngarde and Ulfric still start a war. What bugs me is the hypocricity of Ulfric, he voted for Torygg durring the moot, even if he spoke against the Empire he still aggreed on Torygg becoming the High King. Coming back few years later, when everyone knew what he wanted and was ready to talk about it with him, probably ready to JOIN him, and abusing both the old tradition, an ancestral and sacred power that his teacher forbid the use outside of meditation (Thu'Um etc) and his own reputation just to be the next High King and satisfy his ego and xenophobism is, imo, a grave lack of honor. And once he does that, never again does he duel anyone. He just let his men do the dirty work. Because he doesn't want to take any risk against a more competent opponent. PS: That's why I use a soul trap weapon and a black gem when I kill him during Civil War :p No Sovngarde for you, coward.
The whole argument against Ulfric’s kill is based on how the imperials view Nords/imperial law. If Nords aren’t the ones who decide what makes a true Nord then there isn’t any point in asking the question in the first place. Also there’s no reason given that indicates that shouts wouldn’t be allowed in a duel, so saying that it not being clarified leaves room for discrepancy in the legitimacy of the duel is just a contrived baseless assumption
The tradition invoked dates back to the days when Jarls were Shout users by practice, before the greybeards were a thing. Shouts are allowed. The greybeards are a creation of Jurgen Windcaller from later on.
I know i'm rather late to the train but! I do believe that it was a lawful kill. And shouting? Most likely he used it to show his strength, for what he is capable of. he could've just killed Torygg, yes. But he wanted to make a statement. That HE IS the true nord, he has the VOICE and his combat prowess is near unmatched. I dislike the Empire on every turn. Not just that they wanted to chop my head off, i can forgive that. But as MrRhexx brought out, they're controlling the morrowind and skyrim with puppeteers, now who does that remind me of hmmm? But also yeah, i did take it into my heart that they were just willing to kill someone who they don't know about. Killing her was such a relief. Now every imperial soldier that i see, gets its head smashed in.
While I support the Empire, I do believe that Ulfric's cause is honorable and dignified. He may not be perfect, his ego and rage gets the better of him from time to time, and his battle with Torygg was pretty unfair and he knew it, but he is not selfish like most people believe. If all he wanted was to be High King, he would've immediately claimed that he was High King after Tullius' death if you side with the Stormcloaks, which is the exact opposite of what he said in his victory speech. He didn't want to claim the role of High King until the Moot decided that he was to be High King because he believed that everyone joining his cause were the real heroes. Also, if you side with the Empire and kill Ulfric, you can see him in Sovngarde in the final moments of the main questline, which pretty much proves that he was an honorable man as Sovngarde takes those who have done honorable and good deeds. I may be loyal to the Empire, but there's still that portion of my heart that supports Ulfric.
If he isn't selfish, then how come that the reason he hesitates to attend the peace council is because not all the Jarls support his claim for the throne? The only reason he allows the Moot to meet *after* he has installed puppet Jarls is to get the false idea across that he's been ''chosen by the Jarls''. It's the same reason he allows Elisif to remain Jarl - for the sake of politics. The one who had a claim to the throne bows to Ulfric, thus making Ulfric's claim legitimate. It's also why he refuses to allow Whiterun to remain neutral. Ulfric's only found in Sovngarde because he's a Nord who died in battle. Nothing more.
@@dutchpatriot17 Sovngarde is for those Nords who lived and died with Honor... note that there are no Bandits in Sovngarde, adn Jurgen Windcaller, the founder of a pacifistic order, The Greybeards, is there... do you believe Jurgen rejected the Way of The Voice in his last days and went off to war where he died o.0?
@@dutchpatriot17 Hypothetically, anyone who follows the Nord way of life may be granted entry into Sovngarde, but this is unproven at this time, and the Dragonborn is more a kin to the Divine. Perhaps it is the worthiness of the person at the time of death that determines their being granted entry to Sovngarde, but one who lives an honorable life would tend to die the way they lived, and with the case of Jurgen, unless we find some indication that he abandoned the way of the voice to go off to war, or died fighting off some attack on High Hrothgar, I feel we must dismiss the claim that dying in combat grants entry to Sovngarde.
Ulfric wanted to prove that Torryg was weak. He didn't want to by High King or anything he just wanted to make his point by challenging him in the old Nord way. Technically he shouldn't be a criminal because Torryg did agree to it because he didn't have a choice. If he didn't agree it would be very dishonorable, also using the Thu'um wasn't unfair, all Nord kings of old used the Thu'um or could learn how to use it, Torryg not knowing how to use it was another point probing his weakness. One last thing, what Ulfric didn't know is Torryg DEEPLY respected Ulfric and would have done anything he wanted if Ulfric had just asked. Now, after reading the chest in the Thalmor Embassy, when they captured Ulfric, they made him tell some secrets about the Empire which ultimately led to the Empires defeat, but the crazy thing is, I think Ulfric was brainwashed into killing Torryg and basically damning Skyrim. The fucking elves wanted this to happen and they made it so by using Ulfric. Crazy huh, fucking elves
It was unfair to use the thu'um specifically because it wasn't necessary, if you and the guy you're fighting both know you're going to kill him, then why would you pull out a gun and shoot him anyway? all he did was make a spectacle out of crushing his opponent instead of fighting fair, ulfric knew there wasn't a way toryg was going to win ad probably wasn't even going to harm him but nope, he just goes and uses his most powerful ability and kills him that way.
Nyghtking I definitely think Ulfric’s use of the Thu'um was to make a scene, and that was the whole point of the duel to begin with. Ulfric’s intention was to show Skyrim Torygg’s inadequacies as High King. Hiwever, I think Ulfric was far too quick to assume that Torygg wouldn’t have agreed with him on Skyrim’s secession. Given Torygg’s respect for Ulfric (and Ulfric’s status as a hero in Skyrim), I think Torygg would have declared Skyrim independent. That definitely wouldn’t have stopped the Civil War, because I’m more than certain that Tullius would still try to fight for Skyrim because at that point, the Empire only really had High Rock, Cyrodiil, and Skyrim under its full control, and losing Skyrim would be a blow to the Empire. The Nords are extremely capable fighters and Skyrim is one of the best places for the Legion to get it’s soldiers because of that fact. Losing Skyrim, while not being enough to cripple the Legion, would definitely put the Thalmor at the advantage in the coming war. Now, the Legion is in no way weak, and they’re probably even stronger than the Thalmor during Skyrim’s story, probably not by much though. The Legion has always been one of the strongest fighting forces in Tamriel, but again, with a loss of resources, in the way of soldiers, the Legion would be much weaker than it is during the events of Skyrim and put the Empire at the disadvantage I talked about earlier. Now, like I said, I do think that Ulfric’s use of the Voice was unnecessary because everyone knew that Torygg would never be able to defeat him, but again, Ulfric’s main goal was to prove a point, and I think the point he was trying to prove was that, with the Empire, Skyrim is weak. In the video, Rhexx explained that the moot isn’t just the Jarls, in fact, it’s a lot of people who have nothing to do with Skyrim, and even have no interest in her welfare as a country, but rather, as an extension of the Empire. These people were responsible for putting Torygg in the position of High King of Skyrim. The High King, the representation of power in Skyrim, the leader of the first foothold of humans in Tamriel, and the King of one of the most fierce and hardy races on the continent, was chosen by the Empire with “some” input from the Jarls. Showing Skyrim that he could obliterate the “Empire’s High King” would really more of Skyrim’s men and women to his cause because it would show that those the Empire supported were weak, and that by association, the Empire was weak. It was perfect move for both the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor really. Taking into account what the original commenter said and bringing up the idea that Ulfric was brainwashed into challenging and killing Torygg, it certainly helped the Stormcloaks, bolstering their ranks and making the fight for Skyrim harder for the Empire to win. This helped the Thalmor because no one benefitted more from the war being drawn out longer than the Thalmor. I’m more than sure that Ulfric is genuine in his intentions and wants the best for his country, but he doesn’t see the bigger picture, and maybe that’s because of the brainwashing done by the Thalmor. We just have to see what the outcome truly is in Elder Scrolls VI. Maybe the treaty is canon and the fighting stopped, or maybe, just maybe, one side finally triumphed over the other. Whatever the case may be, it’ll be good for a story and a song. We just have to wait and see.
@@dntwrryitsdj_ Indeed, but one thing people always seem to forget: a good king doesn't have to be a warrior and a good warrior does not a good king make, he wants to prove the nords are strong, but in doing so skyrim will fight the thalmor alone and will more the likely be crushed doing so, which is a vary stupid move, the only reason they failed to do so the first time was because the empire helped them out but letting every nord return home, officially they were allowed to return home for a break or something, unofficially the empire let them return home knowing they would fight the thalmor, and this move caught the thalmor off guard which lead to their defeat, that won't happen a second time, that and the first time the thalmor attacked they weren't using their full fighting capability, when they do so for the second time they will bring much more power and skyrim will fall, which is something i'm pretty sure both the empire and torygg knew.
Nyghtking Of course. I think the Empire and Skyrim are doomed without each other. If Skyrim were separate from the Empire at any other time where the Thalmor weren’t a thing, both powers would be fine. The Thalmor will absolutely stomp Skyrim (as much as it pains me to say that, it’s the truth) and after a few years of war, the remains of the Empire would fall to the Dominion. That’s why I said, Ulfric doesn’t see the bigger picture, and that could partially be due to brainwashing. Ulfric’s killing of Torygg was a mistake in the greater scheme when looking at it from the point of view of a human existence sympathizer, but if you’re a member of the Dominion, you’d be jumping for joy. Though, I think, if you gave Ulfric time after his victory over the Empire, and this is just me theorizing, Ulfric would be smart enough to put aside his differences with the Empire, and all the human races of Tamriel, and maybe the Dark Elves and Argonians as well, would be able to rise up, under one banner and defeat the Thalmor. That’s wishful thinking, I know, but if the powers at hand could see just how evil the Thalmor are, and realize that the Thalmor are a threat, not just to Nordic life, but the life all non-Altmer races, then the Thalmor would be in trouble. The leaders of the races are just too bone-headed to see that and are too busy being stubborn and idiotic. An independent Skyrim isn’t the end of the world really, but an independent and isolated Skyrim is. Does it really matter if Skyrim governs itself if it’s still allied with the Empire? It can secede from the Empire and still have trade. It can still have a real alliance. The Stormcloak Rebellion, with as good of intentions as it holds, dashes any sort of chance for Skyrim and the Empire to coexist in an alliance without war against the Thalmor being eminent. Again, Ulfric’s idea is justified and very much well intended, but his execution and actions are not ideal and do more harm than good.
@@dntwrryitsdj_ Indeed, I once had an idea where the dovakiin becomes high king, and after the war the dovakiin meets up secretly with general tullius to tell him "Skyrim will be independent, however, if as I believe will happen, a second war with the dominions occurs, you can call on skyrim in your time of need and we will fight beside you."
... The empire was already planning in the shadows, its just that they need to keep up an act, so the elves wont attack immediately. They were trying to buy time by pretending to comply... Now ulfric being a frikking idiot, decided to go ahead and attack the empire... sighhh
tripplehd #thedragon it's when you realize you're dreamed up being, so you don't exist so therefore you disappear from the whole universe and it'll be like you were never there.
Rhexx, I really like your videos, they are like academy level law school history lectures provided with such a well thought out world as TES. I also think they get more interesting towards a yet unseen/unknown release or announce of a next tes game, given it will be chronologically later than skyrim, even if it's not, I bet the previous games will be reflected in it. Your type of thinking in the videos provides food for thought and reflexion on our history and day to day life, on the importance of concepts, on ideas that lay the foundation of civility, on seemingly indubious laws, which really are projections and results of dice of history, objective reasons, chance and human ingredient. This virtual world with all of it's quite real godlinesses, creationisms and literal magic still is made by its creators as a reflection of our imperfect one with all of its historic cataclysms, tragedy, genocides and complexity and variety of the worldviews, knowledge and absurdity of being. So I think what you do with your game knowledge is a form of art, I'll definetely keep watching.
The thing you said about the voice being supposed to be used to praise the gods is false. Thats the greybeard/jurgen/paarthurnax opinion The way of the voice Grandfather of the voice Akatosh never stated that mortals were only supposed to use the voice to this specific goal only.
I think the thuum was perfectly legal bc the dragons used it to battle so do the greybeards then the line of the royals come from the dragon born so I would think it would be legal considering the emporer
The Greybeards very explicitly do NOT use the thu'um to do battle. That's kind of the whole purpose of the way of the voice. Even if they did, this wasn't a battle, it was a duel. And regardless of any of that, the Greybeards, while respected are not in charge and do not write laws for Skyrim or the empire, so what they do or do not do has no relevance to the legality of the topic. Dragons aren't in charge any more so them using the thu'um has no relevance to what is and isn't legal according to Skyrim or the empire. The emperor at the time of Skyrim has no relation to the Septim dynasty (which no longer exists after oblivion) and does not 'come from the dragon born'. Even if he did though, it's still made very clear that the Empire considers what Ulfric did to be illegal, so I don't understand what point you were trying to make here. None of your point have any relevance whatsoever with regards to what is or is not legal in Skyrim or the Empire.
Nah. Torygg was half his age with none of his battle experience. He used an over powered cheap shot to knock his enemy down and struck the killing blow while he couldnt defend himself. Thats not a duel. Thats murder
Rich Doe But the voice is a nord art, in the dragonborn bard song they say it’s a nord ancient art, so using the voice is something that a true nord should use
@Jyleninjago kyle it is also a handicap. A man with honor wouldn't have ussued the challange against such a lesser man to begin with, but he had to prove a point. At the very least he shouldnt have used the voice while making the demonstration.
Just to point out that by 4E when Skyrim takes place the Empire has been kicked out of Morrowind. House Redoran is dominant, the Emperor says nothing about it :p. Also, I'm not convinced the Elder Council replaces anyone... since its composition is not very detailed, we have no way to know. But to meet the argument at hand, I think you're right. It's a lawful kill despite the motive and the action of using the Voice.
Technically, the Empire abandoned Morrowind; the Red Year and argonian conflict rendered the province worthless to the Empire.... i'm sure if Morrowind stabilizes and becomes productive once again, the Empire would send the Legion to subjugate the territory... and with not Tribunal anymore, it could get messy
@Unkwon Malaysian Guy If he's racist, then why does he allow dark elves to live in 1/3 of his city? He even lets the Argonians live under his protection. Are there any Imperial jarls in Skyrim that allow that? Even in Solitude the citizens are racist to argonians.
and how much was Ulfric influenced by the Thalmor when he was a prisoner of them? He was considered an "asset" according to the docs you pick up at the Thalmore embassy!
Ulfric is a very controversial hardliner. He has done a lot of bad things, too, depending on who you ask. Ulfric clearly violated the rules of honor when using the thu'um in the duel, whether technically legal or not. Killing the high king destabilized the country. And wanting to split the empire is the wrong move when it comes to keep the Thalmor in check. Ulfric can't defend Skyrim in an all-out war without the empire backing him up against the elves. The concordat itself was a necessity for recovering strength after the war. All the internal fighting is exactly what the Thalmor want, because it further weakens the empire. Ulfric is a shortsighted fool, especially considering it was a Nord who founded the empire in the first place.
You talked about how a council decides who will be Jarl in each Hold if there is no heir, but Ulfric appointed Jarls of his own choosing when he conquered them. They were his puppet leaders.
And the people who replace the Stormclocks Jarls for the Imperial Legion aren't, if you're going to hold the enemy to such standards, you need to hold your allies to the same.
I chose the empire because i want all of us to work as a team against the thalmor, not split up into hundreds of disorganized fragments... Ps i used to be a stormcloak but i left because i dont think they give a damn about bretons...
TJ HedgeScout the empire destroys the nords army and piss off the redguard army (that will no longer be willing to help it anymore) and then be a team? lol
I dont know what else to do, I don't want Ulfric's people shitting on me because im not a nord and what about the rest of Tamriel? My species originated from High Rock, i'm worried about the thalmor, i fear they might try to destroy my home land.
first time i play skyrim, i join imperial, that time when i killed ulfric with his own sword, i realize that i made a huge mistake, i kill a leader of native people who want his homeland free from thalmor supremacy and the imperial, and free to worship a god their believe, from that moment, i restart my save game, play as nord, join stormcloak and yell "SKYRIM BELONG TO THE NORD"
Yeah, I don't know how people can wander around cities like Riften or Windhelm and not feel like shit for destroying the Nords way of life. The ending also clearly shows the Empire is led by incompetent psychopaths who are no better than the Thalmor. Tullius screams at Rikke for simply saying the word Talos, he has been a racist egocentric asshole all the time but he pretends he "learned to appreciate the Nord" after committing a genocide against them, and he talks about "the peace with the Thalmor not lasting for long" when the Empire is at its weakest point in History. And that's among the "best generals" of the Empire?
@@dwight3555 SCREAMS!? HE SCREAMS!??! As someone who Shouted Ulfric in the same way he did to Toryyg. Tullius did NOT scream at Rikke. He simply said "What was that Legate?" She said "Nothing, just saying goodbye" and he just goes "Ok". He was not pissed, he did not scream. He just "didn't catch that"
@@dwight3555 racist egocentric asshole... sounds like Ulfric, jk. But no, his not racist. His basically that American who went to a new country to learn. Of course he'll make mistakes and might accidentally be racist. Also genocide? Really? All you did was captured like 4 forts and siege a city. While killing less then 40 people. If you wanna learn what a genocide is, ask Knight-Paladin Gelebor
Ulfric is a murderer and ESO is my evidence. Jorunn the Skald-King is one of the few recorded people to participate in a traditional duel: 1. Both sides agree to the duel. 2. They fight until one of the two is bested, or if one of the two yields. 3. Victor takes the lands of the defeated and banishes the defeated from his lands. Ulfric straight up killed Torygg, it's murder, simple as that. When you kill someone in a duel you are just proving that you are strong, not that you are better leader.
The duel is something until someone lose, not until they die. if you have a duel with a certain NPC, you just let them suffocate and then they get up again, you don't kill them. because losing in a duel mean dead in real battle
"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil! I fight for their wives and children, whose names I heard whispered in their last breath. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing! I fight... because I must."
1. ''I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil!'' Ahh yes, the three years of war before he fled back to Skyrim.... 2. ''I fight for we few who did come home'' Don't kid yourself, Ulfric. You came home years before the Legions did. 3. ''an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves!'' Again, this Empire is currently massacring the Stormcloaks, and only branded Ulfric a criminal for commiting murder. As always, Ulfric and his Stormcloaks base everything on emotion.
@@RJM-rc6bd Then they were destroyed by the Nords and their land conquered. Right by Conquest ring any bells? Now return that sweet roll, thief! *Idles Menacingly*
In the end who cares? The thalmor are going to do the inevitable, destroy all of Nirn. The God's intended that anyways, but the dragonborn and all the rest stopped it out of ignorance and selfishness. Just let the world burn, I say!
I agree with this .... They disrupted the natural order of things ....just to get a few extra years...in the end Alduin will end all of it....as it should be. I am not an expert on lore....but this is how I see it. While I hate most of the Thalmor....I would say I sympathize with their ideals a little more...they believe that they are the Fae descendants from Aedra and wish to end the world so they can return to their Aedric existence.
fair and legally fought... the High King even ratified it. .... if anyone says it was an illegal fight, the King would be guilty of fighting it as well, so if he had won, the Empire would seek to execute him... bet no one thought of that possibility
Wolves600Gaming What exactly are you basing this off of? and why would no Nords in Skyrim, including Torygg who fully accepted the fact that he would die as a result of accepting the challenge, know about this if it were a legitimate term? ...Torygg accepted the challenge, for to not do so would mean his being deposed by his people.. and seeing as he knew he didn't stand a chance, if losing would have meant the same thing, why wouldn't he decline the challenge and be removed from power?
Do you think that King Torygg’s line might have started during the Oblivion crisis? I’ve been replaying Oblivion lately, and I’ve noticed that one of the dialogues between the citizens is “Skyrim is at war again”. Just speculation and theory at this point, but it could fit.
I really like your lore videos. Whereas most channels' videos just feel like people stating a list of facts like a teacher would (which is completely fine in and of itself), when you do lore videos it feels like you're having a conversation with us, not just stating a list of facts. It feels really... comfy? I guess is the right way to describe it?
While not set in stone it is assumed that the thuum is allowed because when you shout in any hold and a guard comes up to you and asks you to stop and youchoose an agressive option they will say that there are no laws against what you are doing so i assume that the same applies for other forms of combat
They say Ulfric Stormcloak murdered the High King...with his VOICE! Shouted him apart!
Yeah, but did you hear they're reforming the Dawnguard at the old fort near Riften?
Psst..hey I know who you are..Hail Sithis!
No lollygagging
Wait.. I know you
AR 05 You’re making a mistake..
Tuesday: Imperial decree outlaws mead.
Wednesday: All Imperial buildings in ruins, all imperial people are dead.
Steve Kirkham The reason why I am not fond of the Stormcloaks is because the Stormcloaks don't see how powerful the Aldmeri Dominion is, the empire will sort it out at some point, but it's not helping that the Stormcloaks are making the situation worse by creating a rebellion, Skyrim needs the empire to resist a future attack from the Thalmor.
Tuesday: killing you with your own daedric sword and bagging your body
Wednesday: Destroying both the empire and the aldmeri dominion whith an army of dragons
I believe that with the dragonborn the stormcloaks would be able to defend against the dominion, I say that because the dragonborn could create an army of dragons and make deadric armor for the troops, and said dragonborn could train the troops and make them extremely dangerous.
@@RJM-rc6bd a little more than just a rebellion.....lol, ulfric actually says this to general tallius (respectively)
Hammerfell alone could fend off the Aldmeri Dominion. If the Redguards can, why can't the Nords? Besides, it would be impossible for the Thalmor to get pass Skyrim easily, seeing that Skyrim is surrounded by mountainous regions. There is only one way to Skyrim from Cyrodiil and that is the Pale Pass. A small and easily guarded way. Stormcloak assassins would ambush the Thalmor easily if a battle would take place there. If the Thalmor tries to enter Skyrim through Morrowind, it would be over before it even begins. The Red Mountain is a huge threat and its unstable eruptions would damage the Dominion before they could reach Skyrim. If they try to engage the Nords via naval battles, they have to get past the Sea of Ghosts in the East and they are forced to deal with the Hammerfell and High Rock Navies in the west. It would be impossible for the Thalmor to conquer Skyrim. The Nords alone had a history of fighting the elves and most of the time they prevail.
While being a devout stormclock supporter, I disagree with Ulfric killing the high king. Solitudes Court wizard claims that Toryg respected Ulfric so much, that if he asked him to leave the Empire, that he would of done it.
And just as Balgruf said, he killed Toryg because he knew he could
The last time Ulfric trusted the Empire, he conquered an entire city for it and got betrayed right after and sent to jail to be tortured for weeks by the Thalmor ambassador Elenwen while the Jarl of Markath was busy committing war crimes against the Forsworn that he would later blame on Ulfric.
You can't blame him for never trusting this disgusting Empire after that.
@@dwight3555 well, he could have told Toryyg to _fight_ against the Empire. Ever thought of that?
@@erikho6936 You shouldn't think about things with such simplicity.
Torygg was an impressionable ignorant dude in his 20s who only cared about pleasing his wife. He may be moved by Ulfric's words, but all his counselors who have great economic and politic interests in the Empire would have convinced him to not do anything anyway.
@@dwight3555 You read that dossier......He went turncoat and became a fucking thalmor asset. He DID not care about his people. Even after he stop contracting the thalmor with updates he still bogged down Skyrim long enough for the AD to push on the redguards and should the redguards fall Skyrim would get steamrolled by the elves.....
It was legal to kill Torygg but it was still a pretty asshole move to use the thu'um.
Dewey Dezimal that and he ran away
Jennifer Henderson of course he ran away imperials we're chasing him wouldn't you?
Actually by Nordic law it is illegal to kill the person you are dueling, you can only best and banish them
Vertical The Cat Skyrim is fighting for independence so by that it is 2 sets of laws.
Artur Esteves so someone should handicap them self in a competition?
He's a true nord by Sovngarde standards. So was Torygg. Because they both end up in Sovngarde, which means they both acted honorably.
I'm not fully sure I can consider Ulfric a true Nord, mainly because of how racist he is. To him, there's Nords, then there's everyone else, and everyone else is beneath Nords. That's the main reason why I join the Imperial Legion every time I played Skyrim, because of my real-life feelings of not wanting a High King who believes in that kind of bigotry and racism on the throne.
Gabriel Drake just because he's racist doesn't mean he's not a true Nord just like how hating Jews doesn't not make you a true German in WW2
Bruh it’s a medieval based kingdom, of course modern democratic ideas aren’t there
Sean L. A nord is not judged by his acts or how he live, a nord is judged by how he dies!
Ege T and both of them died fighting a duel as per the Nord tradition.
When I see Ulfric and heard his story I heard the story of a man who lost the things that were most dear to him and saw his home being stolen from him. His father executed he cried out for justice he tried to give his people a chance and they turned their noses down at him. It's no wonder he did what he did.
They both kept their honor, also the thu'um rules are only for the greybeards... so if say I learned it from them and then left to use it on the current high king of skyrim I technically didn't break their rules because I'm not a greybeard anymore.
Still a dick move though.
I mean he kinda technically wasn't a Grey Beard before
"not all acts of goodness are always wise and not all acts of evil are always foolish"
this statement describes Ulfric very well in my opinion, Ulfric is not a bad man he can be ignorant and short sighted at times but the fact he goes to sovangard when he dies and after that speech he gives to Galmar he definitely is a true nord. Also I don't think he is racist, he is not bothered about you being and elf while joining stormcloacks and he has few non nords as housecarls in other Cities. Although remember he is not a God or a perfect man like Galmar wants you to believe
“So it’s like the Empire says, ‘We’ll now you can’t drink mead’”.
Not gonna lie, if that happened, even my staunchest Imperial character would rebel.
America did it for a while. People just drank in secret.
"Everybody knows Ulfric, he's kind of a big deal." That triggered me. That huge ass plot point at the beginning is that Ulfric killed the High King *USING THE VOICE* yet nobody presumes him Dragonborn and everyone treats the PC like he's the first to shout in centuries.
Oh and you're totally supposed to use the shout for war purposes. The thu'um was given by Kynareth to mankind specifically so they could go to war against the dragons.
ANYONE can use the voice.
The only special thing about the dragonborn is that he can absord DRAGONS' SOULS and get their knowledge after killing them.
Miraak | Well the way the voice works is that if you are in tune with the true meaning of a word, like you understand it in a fundamental level and speak it with enough power to project that understanding to the world, the world understands and materializes it's meaning in the the physical plane. So if you shout "fus" or force, a literal force appears in front of you. The way the Dragonborn works is that he absorbs a dragon's fundamental understanding and possesses the power naturally through his own Dragon soul. Therefore he can shout intuitively and without training.
Actually, that's because every Nord knows Ulfric studied with the Greybears for years. Also, self-defense is an okay excuse for using the shouts in combat. After all, if trolls and other invaders enter High Hrothgar, the Greybeards have no compunction in using shouts on them.
Jackson Smith, it was Kyne, the Nordic version who granted the Thu'um. Kynareth and every other Imperial god should have stayed out of Skyrim but no, because the devs decided to cheat us out of a unique pure Nordic culture.
PJ Demigod | Oh yeah. That aside of course.
"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil! I fight for their wives and children, whose names I heard whispered in their last breath. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing! I fight... because I must."―Ulfric Stormcloak[src]
The Lore of The Elder Scrolls with respect to "Sovngarde" dictated by "Shor" himself specified that:
*“Sovngarde can only be entered by a Nord, who dies valiantly in honorable combat.”*
Which means that Ulfric and Torygg's duel was honorable!
en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sovngarde,_a_Reexamination
@@xd666xd Precisely dude! Otherwise.. Ulfric, Torygg, Galmar or Rikke could not be found in Sovngarde. Some of those depending of course, by the actions of the player.
@@xd666xd "Jorunn Skald-King" only says:
*“After dear Nurnhilde fell in battle, my brother and I threw back the invaders. Afterward, we disagreed on who should succeed our sister. I believed in diplomacy and wisdom. Fildgor believed in rule by force. I couldn't let him take the throne. When I won the throne, I was forced to exile Fildgor. He never forgave me for that. I assume he's returned to take the throne. I wonder what he promised his Stormfist and Orc allies? I need to think about this. Please, tell Thane Mera that I'm fine.”*
@@xd666xd At no time Jorunn specifies, that not killing the opponent in a traditional duel is a rule. For what is simply implied, that he exiled his brother "Fildgor Orcthane" by his own decision. But killing Fildgor was also an option for him.
Yep! Not killing Fildgor was Jorunn's decicion only. Ulfric is simply not so.. naive as Jorunn was. After all, Fildgor later came back, desecrate the body of his late older sister, "Queen Nurnhilde", and even tried to kill Jorunn, something that would never have happened, in the event that Jorunn had killed Fildgor when he had the opportunity to do so!
Thalmor puppet or Imperial puppet? Honestly, the Jarl of Whiterun should be High King.
da best o' da best
Might be the case, but at least he's a true Nord. Still practicing the beliefs of his forefathers regardless of the Imperial edict.
Balgruuf? Meh. I don't think he could handle it. He can't even get his steward or housecarl (or his children, really) to respect him.
Can any parent have teen respects them ?
but they are children not teens...
I dunno, Ive got a fair bit of sympathy for all of them, really. The kids are bored out of their skulls with literally nothing to do (not even a doll or wooden sword is in that castle!). Can't say as I wouldn't be grumpy too, if I were a kid in that palace. Yikes. Proventus is entrusted with seeing potential dangers to the whole hold that Balgruuf might not, and bring those dangers to light. it's not an easy task, but he's dedicated and his heart is loyal. And as for Irileth, well, she's the one who has to stop Balgruuf from doing all the "hold my mead and watch this" stunts that Nord men are so fond of doing. You gotta admit that can NOT be an easy job, especially after he's had a few meads in him from sheer boredom. "Let's jump off the palace roof into the pools below!" You can see the job she has.......
But, when you listen to the other Jarls in Skyrim, who also have Holds to manage and keep safe, Balgruuf is invariably spoken of with respect, "A good man" even if they don't personally agree with his views. He would be perfect to marry Elesif and settle the country down, the other Nords know and respect in a personal way and he's not a troublemaker who would go out and start another expensive war.
"he was very vocal" lol
Is it funny because of the voice?
Ayyyyy
True nord obviously, he can use the shout because it is a Nordic form of art essentially. The ancient Nords used it that way.
Speak my brother, speak and preach my brother all haul yarl no wait king ulfric
@@squishyhavok4539 You ok? You don't seem well
@@erikho6936 yeah...why?
Yeh and then the way of the voice happened
Agree to a duel and then use Unrelenting Force on them and see if they accept that. They won't. Shouting is a form of magic. Magic isn't accepted in duels ergo, shouting isn't accepted in duels.
I think the reason Torryg implies that Ulfric was dishonourable is because Ulfric knew that Torryg wasnt a warrior and that he would easily destroy so in that regard Ulfric didn't go there for a fair duel but with the intention to kill without risking his own life.
MiMiC Also Torryg can't use the voice so in a way it was as if Ulfric "brought a gun to a knife fight". He used a gift given to combat dragons against a man he most likely could have beaten in "fair" physical combat. It shows a clear lack of respect for the high King on a very personal level.
MiMiC i think Nords would see him not being a warrior as a problem cause you cannot be king of the Nords if you are just an appointed puppet of the Empire which is what some people thought of him with his speeches on the Empire. You cant be a king of a warrior like people when you are not a great warrior yourself
MiMiC also Ulfric says he killed Torryg as a way of showing how weak of a king he was and not worthy of being High King of Skyrim which in a society such as the Nords is a true statement
MiMiC skyrim kings are ment to be strong don't get me wrong I'm for empire but the duel was fair and allowed but... I think the empire is best bet against the thalmor. At same time I don't join sides for 2 reasons 1. Empire tried to cut my head off
2. Companions don't involve themselves in politics
If ulfric is able to win trial by combat he is more fit to rule. This is backed up by how they did it in Norse culture which skyrim is based on.
Actually the whole thing with "a high king must Accept the duel" is not entirely true.
However it is more of an unsaid law as declineing the offer is a great dishonor and a sign of unworthyness
Declineing the duel would basically be the same as abdicateing
da best o' da best Still refuseing would prove Ulfrics point even more
if he didnt accept the duel he wouldnt be allowed into sovngard
@@herowesley1804
A Nord is not judged on how he lived, But on how he Died!
-Ysgramor
if he hadn't accepted he would have essentially been forced to Abdicate as he would be refusing to accept a challenge to his authority. to remain as High King would have been to become a Tyrant as he would have lost his legal claim in the eyes of the other Jarls and His People. He would not be denied access to Sovngarde.
People always bring up Ulfric’s Thalmor connection as stated in the embassy dossier, then just gloss over the bit at the end where they state that “a stormcloak victory is also to be avoided.”🤔
C. Davis -> Huh?
What does it change? As soon as Stormcloaks would win, they would be no match for Thalmor so whatever.
AH03 -> Dragonborn is in Apocrypha.
@@wuj0-themanthemyththelegen856 The red guards in hammer fell fought off the thalmor...
@@wuj0-themanthemyththelegen856 Except they are not?
Did you not see the ending of Dragonborn? You are literally teleported back to Nirn, get out of here with that BS lol.
@@wuj0-themanthemyththelegen856 The Redguards in Hammerfell resisted the Thalmore just fine in direct confrontation with out ANY support from the Imperial Legion.
If you think Nords couldn't hold off a bit of elves who literally need to cross the sea just to get to them your way out of your mind.
Ulfric is not a murderer, he bested Torygg in a duel. Torygg even admits this, albeit in a sore-loserish fashion ("I faced him fearlessly - my soul and honor untainted. Can Ulfric say the same?" - Not 100% certain this is the exact quote, I know the "I faced him fearlessly..." bit is correct, not sure about the rest). Honestly, the whole Civil War is why I personally love Bethesda's story telling, for many reasons. For starters, neither side is ideal, both have their disadvantages: Both sides are racist (Stormcloaks hate anything that isn't a Nord, and the Imperials bow before the Thalmor, who hate anything that isn't a High Elf), both sides have leaders that leave much to be desired (Ulfric is a douche, and General Tullius who was going to willingly execute you despite having nothing to do with the Stormcloaks), and both sides would leave the Empire weakened. To explain my final disadvantage, think about it. It doesn't matter who wins in the end, the Empire is going to be weakened. Think about how many soldiers, both Stormcloak and Imperial, have died over the course of the war? Plus, if there's the fact that if the Stormcloaks win, Skyrim secedes from Tamriel, and if the Imperials win, Skyrim becomes demoralized. It's really a lose-lose for everyone. And the best part of the whole story is the fact that neither Ulfric nor General Tullius is the villain of the story; it's Elisif. Think about it? Who was the first person to claim that Ulfric murdered Torygg? Elisif. Who spread the word that Torygg was murdered instead of bested in battle? Solitude, presumably under Elisif's order. Who truly benefits the most in all of Skyrim from the idea that Torygg was murdered? Elisif. Think about the power she gained from his death. She became Jarl of Solitude, and with the support of the Empire, she's likely to become High Queen, where she's likely to become a "puppet" of the Empire, while getting to live lavishly. She gains so much from this Civil War, which all started with one single lie. Now, you could argue that she's so distraught from her husband's death, that this reaction and believing that her husband was murdered makes sense... except it doesn't, for one simple reason: She's a Nord, one who would know all about the traditions of the Nordic people, especially given her position, heritage, and access to knowledge. In the end, General Tullius and Ulfric, regardless of who wins, got played by the so called Elisif the Fair.
Torygg said something about his fate inescapable yet honor unstained, but you had the gist of it -'J
I had a similar thought on the subject of Elisif a while back... but under further investigation, i've concluded that she is not smart enough to have such a plan to take power. she openly regards Nord traditions as foolishness, and has her orders questioned by her steward, who she submits to his judgement... she is a pawn, but one in a position of power, and I feel that when her Husband, Torygg died in an honorable and ratified Nord Duel (of which she finds foolish) she was in a volatile emotional state, and now, with the mantle of Jarl, she called out in rage for the death of Ulfric, and labeled him a murderer, escalating the civil war.
... The Civil war was already happening before Torygg died, after Ulfric was released from prison and became Jarl of Eastmarch, he rejected the WGC and the Thalmor forced the Imperial Legion to correct him... just like they did in the markarth incident.
Didn't read anything entirely.
Tullius probably didn't even notice the thing that was going on in the background, that the Imperial Officer just went "Fak da list, send 'em to de Block."
kosaba11 Agree 100%, but just so you know, “Fair” in this context means pretty or attractive, not righteous(which she definitely isn’t)
That doesn't make any sense, she _already_ had a lavish life, as wife of the high king. Arguably even better, because it's unlikely that she had any real responsibilities.
Elisif isn't bright enough to hatch such a devious plan. Sybille Stentor on the other hand is & would (she's evil man, I just know it)
it was legal and technically fine and torryg says so himself that ulfric had killed him by tradition but as im pretty sure MrRhexx said he also says he would have tried becoming independent if ulfric asked. Instead ulfric became very power hungry and aggressive and so instead of asking first he shouts his ass and then stabs him in the chest.
Its a very cunt move but technically he did it right.. plus ulfric ends up in Sovngarde so theres that, he clearly was good enough to go there but it was still cunty on his half, and if you read the thalmor reports it seems very obvious that it was there plan for ulfric to start a civil war and do all this shit to try and waste the empire's resources.. you can find them in the chest when you goto the embassy.
Thing is, ending up in Sovngarde has nothing to do with being "good". It's about upholding nordic traditions, and being an honorable warrior. I'm a stormcloak supporter myself but Ulfric wasn't "good enough" to end up in sovngarde, he was honorable enough. A little pedantic but an important distinction nonetheless.
Ulfric didn’t need to challenge torygg to a duel in the first place and should campaigned further for his cause. It’s not illegal but unethical since he knew he would win so in that sense, it’s basically murder.
what everybody always seems to think is that ulfric killed torygg to become high-king. But that wasnt his reason for killing torygg (as evident by him fleeing the scene; if he realyl thought that he would become high-king this way he would have stayed). Ulfric wanted to show the Nords that they are reigned by a weak king that obides foreign laws even if they go straight against nordic tradition and law and that he is going to put and end to it. To make his point he had to duel Torygg AND also kill him.
so sry guys... u are missing the point entirely.
joe the sheep thing is that Ulfric killing Torygg doesn’t make Torygg weak it makes Ulfric stronger. Ulfric would had inevitably won that fight because he had use of the Thu’um while Torygg didn’t. It’s as simple as that. You would have had a point if Ulfric won strictly by marshal ability rather than a supernatural force. It would have been no different if Ulfric was challenged by Savos for High King than Savos promptly blasting Ulfric into dust with a light bolt. It was not a fair fight. And Torygg knew he wouldn’t win yet he fought anyway. That takes sand. Besides that strength doesn’t always mean strength of arms. It also means the ability to lead your people into prosperity. And all the Jarls except Torygg and Barlgruff appear incapable of doing that since those are the only towns where we don’t see gross incompetence in the leadership. Riften’s Jarl is a gullible fool being lead by the nose by a scheming murderer. Winterhold’s Jarl wanted to get rid of the only source of income for his town in the College. Windhelm had a necromantic serial killer on the loose and untapped potential for the war effort in the Dark Elves, a race known for their proficiency in the magic arts and untapped potential in the Argonians a race known to produce some of the most lethal of all assassins. Morthal had a vampire uprising going on with none the wiser literally 100 feet from the main gate. Markarth was infiltrated by psychotic Daedra worshippers and the ringleader ran the fucking prison and the Jarl’s own advisors saw through this. The Jarl of Dawnstar literally believed that the dragons were coming back because Talos was angry at the Imperials and would disappear once Ulfric was on the throne. And Falkreath’s leadership is a literal corrupt, lazy lout who delegates all leadership duties to his advisors. It appears Torygg was the only thing holding Skyrim together because after he died the entire province became overrun with Daedra worshippers, necromancers, vamps, and bloodthirsty bandits. And ain’t shit changed when Ulfric took over.
for the nords the thuum is a weapon and those who weild it are already heroes just for being able to use it. Using a thuum in duel is also not prohibited by the Nord folk. Its prohibited by the greybeards. An important difference. Also Torygg could have learned to use it too and thats probably 1 main reason Ulfric even used it. In days of old every Nord king could do it but Torygg can not. Its just 1 more point to show the ppl that Torygg is weak.
about your assessment concerning the Jarls: You are aware that it has to be like that for gameplayreasons and therefore cannot be used as an argument? Its like saying that bandits are the main population of Skyrim. Clearly u need more bandits than merchants or else you would run out of them in just a couple of hours playtime.
Also claiming that Torygg would have somehow changed all this is really farfetched. Yeah Torygg would have surely walked into Morvaths lair and farted him to death before anyone knew what was going on.... yeah sure.
Watch Your tongue! Your speaking to ulfric stormcloak the true high king
Me at the beginning of the game: He’s no high king
Damn ELFS
Well, I guess the real question to ask on a larger extent is: Are the Greybeards true Nords?
They are some of the only the ones that have the ancient art of the Th’uum, considered a Nordic art/power. Disregard the fact that Shouts come from Dragons, many Nord Warriors learned how to Shout.
Then Jürgen Windcaller restricted the Th’uum to only be taught as a way of meditation, worship of Kyne and Akatosh. Now only the Greybeards can really Shout, where it used to widely known across Skyrim.
Much time has passed since then, but Nords will be Nords. They love battle, glory, song and strength of actions. These are not things you’d find in the Greybeards, they’re probably the least like Nords of all Nords in Tamriel. They would admonish Ulfric for using the Th’uum for battle and personal glory, yet they sit in the Monastery on High Hrothgar and do *nothing* .
Who cares what the Greybeards think? Sure they are wise and possess knowledge best left kept away from most men to prevent misuse, but they would have let Alduin destroy the world for no reason other than Alduin had the birthright as the World-Eater. They don’t have much of right to say what is or isn’t “allowed” or what is true to the Nordic way of life.
So if you think the Greybeards are what Nords should strive to be, then of course Ulfric is wrong to use the Th’uum to usurp the Empire and kill Toryyg.
However, how many Nord heroes of legend were known for following the status quo? For doing as they were told by others? Ysgramor, Olaf One-Eye, Talos? Yeah those guys that forged the way for mankind were all known to be peaceful men who didn’t challenge authority. Toryyg could have learned the Th’uum, right or wrong, but he sat idly by while another Nord dared to act.
The Greybeards are also old men, so it's not like they'll be able to get down and dirty. The fact only only truly know the way of the Thu'um already shows that they (and the Skaal) have a link to the past that the Nords don't. The Nords have, for the most part, been watered down.
And the Greybeards aren't too keen on being like Ysgramor and mass murdering all who oppose him across an entire province.
Ulfric learned the Thu'um from the Greybeards because he was meant to become one. Nords don't generally even know about the Thu'um other than hyperbole from old legends. Barring that the Nords, or rather, the Atmorans, had a magical side to their culture, whereas modern Nords reject magic as a whole.
From what I remember, there is no rule against using the Thu'um in a duel, but is just unusual since most of Skyrim's citizens/denizens do not possess any Thu'um training at all.
100%
Ulfric is the Jarl who was Promised
For the night is dark and full of errors
Seriously its a freezing country with zombie warriors, before the Dragonborn came along it was Ulfric who used this mysterious power and rise to the status of war hero, if he were in Game of Thrones he would the King in the North
Lawful due to ancient Nordic traditions, unhonourable due to the fact he did it to prove a point and he knew that Torygg had no chance
The point of a duel is to win.
@@gh0rochi363 To the Nords, it's to win honorably.
@@yagwebalkabsh21 he did, he didn't cheat did he. He had the advantage as he took the time to learn the voice and he used it. It's fair. If toryg(?) knew it, he would use it to.
@@darkpixel1128 The point of the duel isn't to just beat down your foe. It's purpose is to send a message, to show a better leader. However, what Ulfric did was the complete opposite, he impatiently and ruthlessly used a power, that only few Nords can do, only showing that he won on a whim, not bc of his skills. Had he bested Torygg through marshal skills and strategy, the duel wouldn't have been an issue. By your logic, the Dragonborn could just challenge any person of power and instantly kill them with his Thuum bc he has the ability, in no way showing his traits needed for that position. Ulfric's duel back fired bc by taking the easy way to ending the fight, he only portrayed himself as a power hungry tyrant. It's why Torygg said is Ulfric's honour stained, for half of Skyrim would see him as a murderer for his actions.
technicaly the shout is dishonorable due to the fact that Torygg could not, same concept as don't bring a gun to a sword fight.
Here's what I think.
I think Ulfric is walking a line, Leaning from both ends of the grey. Fact is, he played the game on the line and made sure that he got the better hand out of the situation. See, it's almost like when Torygg says; My honor is unstained, can Ulfirc say the same? I don't think it's about what he did. I think it's about *HOW* he did. And the *OUTCOME* that came about. And if those in Soverngaurd are watching us, like they say, then Torygg can see what happens as a result of his death.
And I don't know if there was any clear indication of if people KNEW that he accepted the duel. That's a factor too. Because if you think about it like this, in Soverngaurd, when you talk to the ghosts and such, they talk about this a lot. This whole mystery of life and how they see the world now they are dead and that they aren't the same. Literally. Like, they are in a distorted version, well, to us. ... it's a lot of smoke and mirrors. Not really a clear answer and it's all fake.
And by fake I mean, the fact that there's a lot of fakeness going on when it comes to why people did what they did or why they are here. Cause if you noticed the ghosts are very wise, but the wisdom has a cynical tone to it. At least some of the ghosts. So that leads back to what I was saying before which was, it wouldn't matter if he used the shout or not. Cause Torygg knew what was going to happen, he knew that there was a way this was going to go down, there was a clear code that Ulfric played by, and he knew that Ulfric was able to wade in between the lines of what's wrong and right.
And lastly, to back up this point, go to Ulfrics throne, and go talk to him, don't ask him questions just go up to him and then exit the conversation menu, yeah there's the typical "gods be praised," or "Be safe" but if you stand a while or maybe just walk into the palace of kings, when he's talking to his right hand, he actually responds to his right hands' questions with a question. In fact, the questions Ulfric asks are not questions as to war or ethics, but actually, show how anxsty (spelling?) he is as a person and what he thinks is right and why.
He constantly banters between Skyrim Nordic tradition but he also is pro new age and clams. "THERE NEEDS TO BE CHANGE!" so he doesn't know what fault he's in nor what side of what's right or wrong, He keeps questioning himself and looking at the battle map thinking. "Does this really have to go down?" But he does it anyway. In my opinion, I think he did what was smart, and he knew what can and couldn't be done. Torygg never saw it coming......
MR. Rhexx, I love your skyrim videos!!!!
I get this. Completely. Whether Ulfric is really a murderer I guess we won't really know. He stands on a fine, non existent line. To some people, he's past the line as a murderer. To others he's past the line as a hero, and what he did was alright. And then to the last bit, he's on the line of murderer and a hero because technically, what he did is legal but in the current time period this type of dueling had been looked passed and well, kind of out dated. Something that wasn't exactly honorable and to that situation, a little iffy of okay and not okay.
Basically, your right. Ulfric did know what he was doing and how things would turn out I have faith in that. But he also questions himself whether it was honorable, and to the people, where he stands next to the line. Past it? Behind? Or right on it?
So really, whether he's a murderer or a true Nord, that depends on the person.
Sex with sheep.
That's the worst spelling of sovngarde I've ever seen.
The shouts are perfectly legal in a duel.They are a skill you must learn, like one handed,two handed etc.
Toryg wasnt a good fightet,and ulfric would have defeated him without using that shout
So why didn't he?
excatly he just wanted the throne. any body could beat torygg but they he was rightful king. ulfric was a prisoner of war then right after being freed he wanted the throne.. thats not fishy.
ETB_EmperorWolfYT wrong
What would you do if your people are leaded by a corupted empire, a pupet of the thalmor
Ulfric was a true nord, no mather who says what
He had a chance to help his people, and took it
If ulfric only wanted the throne he would not declare independente for skyrim, and he would have served the thalmor like toryg
But no Ulfric was a true nord and im pround he is the high king now
Skyrim needed ulfric, and he have not gave up to it
"Ulfric willingly and cooperatively aided the Thalmor"
Um, you've read their dossier on him right? It literally says he's "uncooperative"
While perfectly legal using a shout on someone with no means to defend against it isn't exactly fair, but what makes it scummy is that they both knew he would win if a fair fight anyway, ulfric was much more skilled and was a warrior, Toryg was a noble with minimal if any skill, the fact ulfric used the shout against an opponent who they both knew he would kill without it doesn't speak highly of him, it speaks more of a man who wants to make a show out of crushing their opponent then it does a fair, just, and honorable ruler.
It's sort of like saying "Yeah I know I'm fighting a guy who might as well be crippled because of the difference between us in skill and could kill him easily with my knife, but i'm going to shoot him in the head with this gun I brought to the fight anyway."
torgg had to accept if he wanted to go to sovernguard, he knew he would lose and so did ulfric therefore torgg couldn't back down
Can't he be both? :)
They're synonyms, friend. :)
Duels were legal in Skyrim, and IRL, but only if they're NON-LETHAL. A duel to the death was illegal whether or not the participants agreed. High king Torygg agreed to a non-lethal duel, was killed through the use of thum in a pre-meditated act of murder, Ulfric them fled the capital as fast as he could and rallied his pre-prepared troops to conquer & plunder the loyalists. Which is a extremely traditional method of illegally usurping the throne. So in truth, it actually was both.
Venser's Prodigy "Duels were legal in Skyrim, and IRL, but only if they're NON-LETHAL." You got a source for that?
+Skullcrusher430
Jorunn the Skald-King, the Brother's War and the Crown of Freydis.
+Hjalti Early-Beard could you provide a source where it states that its illegal to kill the opponent? I'm genuinely curious, of course what Ulfric did would count as murder in the Empire's eyes (which is the point btw, he wants to break away from the Empires laws) but I can't find any source that says Jorunn couldn't kill his brother because it was illegal. He couldn't kill his brother because it was his brother. "With a broken heart, Jorunn exiled his brother and chastened the Stormfist clan for supporting him."
Nobody forced Torygg to accept his challenge.
Ulfric and the nord people were gravely betrayed after the Markarth incident.
To see that puppet High Vassal Torygg submissive behaviour after all that happened since the war where Ulfric fought valiantly, was enough.
Shout him to space!
the duplicity of claiming to be there to talk with Torryg, when his intent was purely to kill him, clearly damns Ulfric as a murderer, that and fact he can be over heard saying simply that Torryg was a message is all the proof you need.
Torryg accepted the challenge, a Challenge is not a murder. You have to premeditate your intention to challenge before you can challenge.
@@MrXuliestaccording to ancient nordic tradition it is lawful. It is still murder. He knew torig wouldn't stand a chance. The Morgan tong lawfully murder people that doesn't mean it wasn't murder. Ulfric only follows the old ways if it suits him. He killed Torig with a shout which violates the way of the voice. Shouting to kill someone is not a service to the gods. Ulfric just wants to be high king. Ulfric could have tried to convince torig to succeed from the empire. From what we know torig was open to talking about it.
@@MrXuliest Ulfric backed him into a corner and Torryg had to accept. Also just like the guy above me said just because a kill is lawful doesn't mean it's not murder.
@@MrXuliest You can't use magic in duels unless it's specificly a magic duel. Ulfric was supposed to use weapons not the thu'um.
@@christopheralvarado4544 Are you all suffering from down syndrome?
Do you hear yourself "Just because a kill is lawful doesn't mean it's murder!"
I guess we should have JUSTICE FOR OSAMA BIN LADEN then!!
I didn't know Jarlship was hereditary...maybe I did but never thought about it..
There should've been a quest where one of the Jarl's dies, or is dying and it turns out he had two kids, one being a farmer in the reach and the other being a court wizard or perhaps a bard and you have to decide which one.
Neither know, they each have different political affiliations, and both do things differently.
That would've been WAY rad.
Just a minor correction:
Ulfric did not run away after winning. He sheathed his sword, and walked casually out because he followed ancient nord laws and tradition. The reason he got called a murderer is because the high king was the Empire's puppet. And when they lost their puppet, and it was pretty clear that a moot would make Ulfric High King, someone that the Empire would not be able to control. So he was branded unjustly by the Empire, a murderer even though he followed Skyrim tradition and law.
Also, shouting is an ancient nordic thing as well. Before the greybeards, nords shouted. And this tradition and law was made before the greybeards rule came into play. So yes, the shout is allowed. The only thing NOT allowed in a duel, is magic. And shouting is not considered magic.
Incorrect; he fled the city. The guard force tried to arrest him, but the coward ran like a chicken, and thanks to Roggvir, escaped. He broke Nordic Duel Custom, he murdered Torygg.
Torygg was High King by two points of Nord tradition. The first, being in place since the First Era, being the fact that he was the High King's son. The second, also being in place since the First Era, being the fact that he was elected through the Moot.
Before the Greybeards, the Nords went against Kyne's wishes. Kyne taught the Voice to the Nords to oppose the Dragon Cult; not for personal gain. The Dragon Cult and their supporters already had the Voice and already used it for their selfish ideas; Kyne did not want that.
Also, fyi, Shouting *is* considered magic.
Actually, Shouting is considered magic because they can be blocked by wards; which can only block magic.
@@candicethelastone7737 The Voice being used is not the reason it is murder. The reason it is murder is because these duels,, traditionally, do not result in death.
Frostbite venom is marked as a poison in your inventory. The Thu'um is marked as magic. There is no reason to think otherwise. Would you argue using souls for enchanting isn't magical in nature?
@@candicethelastone7737 Speaking with Jorunn the Skald-King in ESO and reading ''The Crown of Freydis''. There isn't a whole lot on it, but these two, alongside with Ulfric being called out as a murderer, add up.
True, but then again, that's game mechanics. Some things can be attributed to a petty error in coding. This, however, was done on purpose, hence why the entire ''Shout'' category is in the magic category to begin with.
@@candicethelastone7737 No, none of the combatants in those duels knew the Voice, at least, as far as we know. I suppose the Nords could, at best, consider it dishonorable to use the Voice, but I don't think they'd care that much.
The problem I have with ulfric is that people in solitude say if he asked king torryg ( I think I spelled his name wrong) that he would have declared independence so it was s power grab I think it was by Nordic tradition legal and honorable since he goes to sovngarde but a power grab nonetheless
It was definitely a power grab. Ulfric is a man of action, and he needed a symbol for his cause. Torygg was the perfect symbol for the empire, so he took it.
Saying that Torygg sympathised with Ulfric and looked up to him is very different to claiming that he would have definitely left the Empire had Ulfric asked. If Torygg was so sympathetic to this point of view, why didn't he break off ties with the Empire beforehand? If Torygg cared about Skyrim, why didn't he decline the duel which he knew he would lose and offer Ulfric an alternative, namely declare independence? Remember Sybille Stentor gave a reason why Torygg didn't declare independence from the Empire, "Torygg wasn't ready to let it fall apart."
The moot would obviously pick him however since he put half the jarls in power and has his armies in there cities
With Jarls he put in place himself. Talk about a fair moot.
Ulfric was here during the previous moot and voted in favor of Torygg. (Even if he talked a while about the empire).
Elisif is not High Queen, she is the Jarl of Solitude. She will probably become High Queen after the Civil War if the Empire wins.
Yes, half. Not all. Then it would be fair because he would have to make an actual case and act like a real king to rally peoples not by threatening them with his army.
The thing is, Ulfric just blackmailed him. There was little reason to actually kill him because he only had to beat him (which doesn't immediately equate to killing). Ulfric had an unfair advantage (the shout) while if the High King refused he would be forced to step down. This was obviously a power grab, since Ulfric did a lot of unecessary things such as challenging Torig to a duel in the first place. Also Ulfric is just a shitty person in general, murder or otherwise.
Merkky ulfric had the right to challenge him! it was no blackmail
da best o' da best
I'd love to see a proper argument from Stormcloak supporters. Too bad they're as dumb as rocks.
Merkky ikr all discussions between empire and stormcloak supporters always look the same.
The empire supporters bring facts and lore and logic
Stormcloak supporters :
BUT SKYRIM I FORR DA NORDZ?!!!?
Well at least most of them, there are some that actually can talk normally and discuss this topic but they usually get outsmarted by empire supporters
Robert Baratheon I definitely support the Stormcloaks but I don't just scream SKYRIM FOR NORDS! It was a dual between Ulfric and Torryg, but he did it to prove the High king as weak, because he is representation of Skyrim hence Nords, but also serving the Empire, Ulfirc tried to prove that Skyrim can survive without the Empire. I personally think though that if Nords and discontent then other races in the other regions of the Empire will be too, maybe if Bethesda carried on with the storyline it could show a string of rebellions against the Empire, gradually dissolving it, meaning the Thalmor have no puppet and have to get their hands dirty in an attempt to conquer the whole of Tamriel again, but if the other regions and races rebel, then they could also unify, form truces to fight the Thalmor together, and the Stormcloaks could just have been the start of this series of events bringing down the Thalmor... Essay over
7:51 Looks like someone forgot to turn off their phone while recording xD
Hue hue
the Thu'uum is among the oldest of human magics, learned solely in Skyrim, from a gods grace no less. Its proof you have a Gods backing. It's an ancient magic, and all magic is valid during a duel. Of course the shout is a valid thing in a Nord duel.
Kyne punished the Nords for abusing her gift... Kyne doesn't back Ulfric.
@@dutchpatriot17
Kyne didn’t punish them, that’s just what Juergen believed.
@@BruceWayne-fj9bm And what Jurgen believed was true.
Why did my notification say that the title was “1”
Twan Holtslag same here
"1" is the name i give my videos when I upload them to UA-cam, at which point, i change the name to whatever they are supposed to have. It's odd that it gave you that name instead, this is the way i have been doing it since i started UA-cam.
MrRhexx aha. tnx for the explanation. great video btw
It was a duel. Ulfric called him out and Torygg accepted.
You see them both in sovngarde as well, ulfric did nothing wrong
"But a hero does not use a power like the Voice to murder his king and usurp his throne."
he learned the shout with practice and no law prevents him from using a shout.
1st of all... let's keep in mind that this takes place in a medieval-like age.. killing someone in a duel isn't murder no matter how you look at it. He accepted the duel because his honour bound him to it, just as how Ulfric's honour doesn't allow him to stand idly by and let the imperials and thalmors terrorise his people. Nords want to go to Sovngard when they die and they don't know if they can do that if they're kept from worshipping Talos. It's like wanting to be cared for when you get old and not thrown out into the street to live your last days as a hobo. Ulfric might be a jerk sometimes but he's definitely right with his cause, and he might have used the voice not to get an upper hand (because he probably would have won either way) but to remind people of the old kings.
1st of all, it was. In medieval europe, most duals were non-lethal.
The Thalmor? Those guys that Ulfric decided to work with? Yeah nah, that's just a lot of nonsense.
he didnt decided to work for them, they torture him for days and he only gave up after the citadel had fallen, and they told him his info make that possible, which obviously is a lie. sure he is unwillingly helping the talmor goals, but so does the empire by fighting the stormcloacks... the talmor wants the civil war to deplete skyrim and imperial manpower. if the empire renounced to Skyrim like it did to Hammerfell. the empire, skyrim hammerfell will united as allies against the talmor.
+Louis B Cruise
False.
After the war direct contact between Ulfric and the Thalmor was established, cooperative and willing contact. Ulfric proved his worth by staging the Markarth Incident with the Thalmor, only when he was thrown in jail did he become uncooperative to them.
well actually 1 thing of what I typed is false, they didn't torture for days.. but for months...
and about the contact part... the dossier refers that they stablished contact.. not direct contact... big diference there...
+Louis B Cruise
Do the math.
They established contact.
And later on they say Ulfric became:
''uncooperative to *direct* contact.''
How do you *become* uncooperative to that which you never were part of?
One thing to keep in mind is that the guards that got exacuted said that ulferic did not use his voice to kill the king.
So it was legal? No guard aggroing and saying you comitted crimes against skyrim and her people?
Speech: 100
It was legal, but that didn't stop the Empire from being mad their puppet got killed lawfully and would be replaced by a rightful king who would nope Skyrim out of the decaying Cyrodiilic psychopathic need for control. That's why they had to use mass propaganda and execute innocents for no valid reason like Roggvir.
I empathize more with the Stormcloacks because I'm from México, a country that was crushed and stripped out of their ancient traditions by an empire. I wonder what most European players think about this topic. Excep for players from actual Nordic countries, I suppose they always fight for the Nords XD
Yeah, man. A lot of people don`t understand the meaning of being oppressed in your own country. It gets even worst for Nords since they have bled for Empire for so long. Their history tells us that all the Nords have to do is to return to their old ways. 500 companions beat the living crap of the Snow Elves. Skyrim is only weakened by the Empire`s scheming.
French here, the Stormcloaks are right and the oppression from the Empire is just terrorism at that point.
A traditional nord duel is a duel of the voice so Ulfric was keeping to the traditions of Skyrim by using it.
I FusRoDah'd Ulfric at the Palace of Kings, with the dragonborn force perk from Mora.
Literally shouted him apart, like what they say he did to the High King.
Ah, good to see I'm not alone. Although I'm not evil enough to Soul Trap him
@@erikho6936 kind of the same but, with the flame shout.
Ulfric is what every true nord should aspire to
Lying to the grey beards who only thought you the thu'um only for praising the gods, not for seeking power. So he is a liar. He used the voice to shout a man apart without warning nor honor for a fair duel between nords. He is a dishonorable coward. He unwittingly accepts thalmor help and supplies to prolong the civil war. He is a thalmor asset that weakens the Empire for the inevitable coming Empire-Thalmor war. Banning Talos is only a temporary measure as the Empire was desperate to have a truce to recuperate and regroup because the capital and countryside was sacked and massacred by the thalmor a blow that will take a while to recover.
@@KeiKAndLies
The Greybeards suck. And Ulfric never lied to them at all.
@@KeiKAndLies
Your whole paragraph is illogical.
@@KeiKAndLiesFacts.
Nords first used the voice to conquer the world
Like you've talked about before when it came to this topic, Torygg respected Ulfric so much that if Ulfric would ask him to walk away from the empire and truly become independent, Torygg would listen and agree on this point. Even so, if Ulfric wished for Torygg to step down he would also do the same. I don't mean this as it wasn't within Ulfric's right to duel him and beat him, but at the same time he could have prevented civilwar if he used his tongue to actually speak sence into Torygg and let the nords worship their one true god even if it would happen that Skyrim would have to fight the Dominion, because then Skyrim would also have been supported by the Hammerfell against the Dominion which would have been an interesting outcome.
And like you meantioned before, the reason why the Empire banned Talos was because they were building up their army to fight another war against the Dominion and hopefully win this time. But they needed time and the Dominion knew that, so in conclusion Ulfric helped the Dominion by letting the empire fight the Stormcloaks and spill their own blood because it halts the rebuild of the empire's army against the Dominion. It was most likely not within Ulfric's mind to help the Dominion but he is quite ambitious to be able to see that which is most likely why he wanted to duel Torygg. I like how you jump back on this topic though, its a very interesting one and I hope that you will do another one about the Empire and the Stormcloaks!
Even if the dual was lawful I can't help but think that it was unfair and kinda dodgy.
Ulfric knew that Torygg HAD to accept, if he didn't he couldn't go to Sovngarde, he would lose any authority and Ulfic could legitimately start his rebellion. If he accept, he dies, go to Sovngarde and Ulfric still start a war.
What bugs me is the hypocricity of Ulfric, he voted for Torygg durring the moot, even if he spoke against the Empire he still aggreed on Torygg becoming the High King.
Coming back few years later, when everyone knew what he wanted and was ready to talk about it with him, probably ready to JOIN him, and abusing both the old tradition, an ancestral and sacred power that his teacher forbid the use outside of meditation (Thu'Um etc) and his own reputation just to be the next High King and satisfy his ego and xenophobism is, imo, a grave lack of honor.
And once he does that, never again does he duel anyone. He just let his men do the dirty work. Because he doesn't want to take any risk against a more competent opponent.
PS: That's why I use a soul trap weapon and a black gem when I kill him during Civil War :p No Sovngarde for you, coward.
I know i'm going to get a shitstorm for not siding with the xenophobics, short-sighted Stormcloaques but eh. To each their own view on what honor is.
The whole argument against Ulfric’s kill is based on how the imperials view Nords/imperial law. If Nords aren’t the ones who decide what makes a true Nord then there isn’t any point in asking the question in the first place. Also there’s no reason given that indicates that shouts wouldn’t be allowed in a duel, so saying that it not being clarified leaves room for discrepancy in the legitimacy of the duel is just a contrived baseless assumption
Ulfric stormcloack the true high king of Skyrim
he said it was my sword piercing his heart that killed him ulfric says that if you talk to him
shout was illegal technically ulfric is a greybeard
The tradition invoked dates back to the days when Jarls were Shout users by practice, before the greybeards were a thing. Shouts are allowed. The greybeards are a creation of Jurgen Windcaller from later on.
Could just be Ulfric being ignorant.
nikola jurican Ulfric was being trained by the greybeards to become one but left them to join the Great War.
Ulfric shouted, Torygg was sent flying and landed on the ground, Ulfric finished him off with a sword stab as Torygg was still laying on the ground.
I know i'm rather late to the train but! I do believe that it was a lawful kill. And shouting? Most likely he used it to show his strength, for what he is capable of. he could've just killed Torygg, yes. But he wanted to make a statement. That HE IS the true nord, he has the VOICE and his combat prowess is near unmatched. I dislike the Empire on every turn. Not just that they wanted to chop my head off, i can forgive that. But as MrRhexx brought out, they're controlling the morrowind and skyrim with puppeteers, now who does that remind me of hmmm? But also yeah, i did take it into my heart that they were just willing to kill someone who they don't know about. Killing her was such a relief. Now every imperial soldier that i see, gets its head smashed in.
I think that a true leader of skyrim should use the voice.
a true high king and true Jarls, either these motherfuckers gets in shape, sharpen their throats or else am gonna KICK them out of Nirn
One Thalmor disliked this video.
vik fahliil
how Thalmor can dislike the video that they payd for?
Fucking pointed eared bastards
Niv Loewenberg I hate both stormcloak's and thalmor
I hate Nords even more since ESO, they're all literally drunken idiots.
While I support the Empire, I do believe that Ulfric's cause is honorable and dignified. He may not be perfect, his ego and rage gets the better of him from time to time, and his battle with Torygg was pretty unfair and he knew it, but he is not selfish like most people believe. If all he wanted was to be High King, he would've immediately claimed that he was High King after Tullius' death if you side with the Stormcloaks, which is the exact opposite of what he said in his victory speech. He didn't want to claim the role of High King until the Moot decided that he was to be High King because he believed that everyone joining his cause were the real heroes. Also, if you side with the Empire and kill Ulfric, you can see him in Sovngarde in the final moments of the main questline, which pretty much proves that he was an honorable man as Sovngarde takes those who have done honorable and good deeds.
I may be loyal to the Empire, but there's still that portion of my heart that supports Ulfric.
If he isn't selfish, then how come that the reason he hesitates to attend the peace council is because not all the Jarls support his claim for the throne?
The only reason he allows the Moot to meet *after* he has installed puppet Jarls is to get the false idea across that he's been ''chosen by the Jarls''. It's the same reason he allows Elisif to remain Jarl - for the sake of politics. The one who had a claim to the throne bows to Ulfric, thus making Ulfric's claim legitimate. It's also why he refuses to allow Whiterun to remain neutral.
Ulfric's only found in Sovngarde because he's a Nord who died in battle. Nothing more.
@@dutchpatriot17 Sovngarde is for those Nords who lived and died with Honor... note that there are no Bandits in Sovngarde, adn Jurgen Windcaller, the founder of a pacifistic order, The Greybeards, is there... do you believe Jurgen rejected the Way of The Voice in his last days and went off to war where he died o.0?
@@thoruszwolf4153 Sovngarde is not exclusive to Nords. And your way of life is not what matters, only the way you died.
@@dutchpatriot17 Hypothetically, anyone who follows the Nord way of life may be granted entry into Sovngarde, but this is unproven at this time, and the Dragonborn is more a kin to the Divine.
Perhaps it is the worthiness of the person at the time of death that determines their being granted entry to Sovngarde, but one who lives an honorable life would tend to die the way they lived, and with the case of Jurgen, unless we find some indication that he abandoned the way of the voice to go off to war, or died fighting off some attack on High Hrothgar, I feel we must dismiss the claim that dying in combat grants entry to Sovngarde.
@@thoruszwolf4153 Even animals can go to Sovngarde, so I don't think the requirements are that high.
Ulfric wanted to prove that Torryg was weak. He didn't want to by High King or anything he just wanted to make his point by challenging him in the old Nord way. Technically he shouldn't be a criminal because Torryg did agree to it because he didn't have a choice. If he didn't agree it would be very dishonorable, also using the Thu'um wasn't unfair, all Nord kings of old used the Thu'um or could learn how to use it, Torryg not knowing how to use it was another point probing his weakness. One last thing, what Ulfric didn't know is Torryg DEEPLY respected Ulfric and would have done anything he wanted if Ulfric had just asked. Now, after reading the chest in the Thalmor Embassy, when they captured Ulfric, they made him tell some secrets about the Empire which ultimately led to the Empires defeat, but the crazy thing is, I think Ulfric was brainwashed into killing Torryg and basically damning Skyrim. The fucking elves wanted this to happen and they made it so by using Ulfric. Crazy huh, fucking elves
It was unfair to use the thu'um specifically because it wasn't necessary, if you and the guy you're fighting both know you're going to kill him, then why would you pull out a gun and shoot him anyway? all he did was make a spectacle out of crushing his opponent instead of fighting fair, ulfric knew there wasn't a way toryg was going to win ad probably wasn't even going to harm him but nope, he just goes and uses his most powerful ability and kills him that way.
Nyghtking I definitely think Ulfric’s use of the Thu'um was to make a scene, and that was the whole point of the duel to begin with. Ulfric’s intention was to show Skyrim Torygg’s inadequacies as High King.
Hiwever, I think Ulfric was far too quick to assume that Torygg wouldn’t have agreed with him on Skyrim’s secession. Given Torygg’s respect for Ulfric (and Ulfric’s status as a hero in Skyrim), I think Torygg would have declared Skyrim independent.
That definitely wouldn’t have stopped the Civil War, because I’m more than certain that Tullius would still try to fight for Skyrim because at that point, the Empire only really had High Rock, Cyrodiil, and Skyrim under its full control, and losing Skyrim would be a blow to the Empire. The Nords are extremely capable fighters and Skyrim is one of the best places for the Legion to get it’s soldiers because of that fact. Losing Skyrim, while not being enough to cripple the Legion, would definitely put the Thalmor at the advantage in the coming war.
Now, the Legion is in no way weak, and they’re probably even stronger than the Thalmor during Skyrim’s story, probably not by much though. The Legion has always been one of the strongest fighting forces in Tamriel, but again, with a loss of resources, in the way of soldiers, the Legion would be much weaker than it is during the events of Skyrim and put the Empire at the disadvantage I talked about earlier.
Now, like I said, I do think that Ulfric’s use of the Voice was unnecessary because everyone knew that Torygg would never be able to defeat him, but again, Ulfric’s main goal was to prove a point, and I think the point he was trying to prove was that, with the Empire, Skyrim is weak.
In the video, Rhexx explained that the moot isn’t just the Jarls, in fact, it’s a lot of people who have nothing to do with Skyrim, and even have no interest in her welfare as a country, but rather, as an extension of the Empire. These people were responsible for putting Torygg in the position of High King of Skyrim. The High King, the representation of power in Skyrim, the leader of the first foothold of humans in Tamriel, and the King of one of the most fierce and hardy races on the continent, was chosen by the Empire with “some” input from the Jarls.
Showing Skyrim that he could obliterate the “Empire’s High King” would really more of Skyrim’s men and women to his cause because it would show that those the Empire supported were weak, and that by association, the Empire was weak.
It was perfect move for both the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor really. Taking into account what the original commenter said and bringing up the idea that Ulfric was brainwashed into challenging and killing Torygg, it certainly helped the Stormcloaks, bolstering their ranks and making the fight for Skyrim harder for the Empire to win. This helped the Thalmor because no one benefitted more from the war being drawn out longer than the Thalmor.
I’m more than sure that Ulfric is genuine in his intentions and wants the best for his country, but he doesn’t see the bigger picture, and maybe that’s because of the brainwashing done by the Thalmor.
We just have to see what the outcome truly is in Elder Scrolls VI. Maybe the treaty is canon and the fighting stopped, or maybe, just maybe, one side finally triumphed over the other. Whatever the case may be, it’ll be good for a story and a song. We just have to wait and see.
@@dntwrryitsdj_ Indeed, but one thing people always seem to forget: a good king doesn't have to be a warrior and a good warrior does not a good king make, he wants to prove the nords are strong, but in doing so skyrim will fight the thalmor alone and will more the likely be crushed doing so, which is a vary stupid move, the only reason they failed to do so the first time was because the empire helped them out but letting every nord return home, officially they were allowed to return home for a break or something, unofficially the empire let them return home knowing they would fight the thalmor, and this move caught the thalmor off guard which lead to their defeat, that won't happen a second time, that and the first time the thalmor attacked they weren't using their full fighting capability, when they do so for the second time they will bring much more power and skyrim will fall, which is something i'm pretty sure both the empire and torygg knew.
Nyghtking Of course. I think the Empire and Skyrim are doomed without each other. If Skyrim were separate from the Empire at any other time where the Thalmor weren’t a thing, both powers would be fine. The Thalmor will absolutely stomp Skyrim (as much as it pains me to say that, it’s the truth) and after a few years of war, the remains of the Empire would fall to the Dominion. That’s why I said, Ulfric doesn’t see the bigger picture, and that could partially be due to brainwashing.
Ulfric’s killing of Torygg was a mistake in the greater scheme when looking at it from the point of view of a human existence sympathizer, but if you’re a member of the Dominion, you’d be jumping for joy.
Though, I think, if you gave Ulfric time after his victory over the Empire, and this is just me theorizing, Ulfric would be smart enough to put aside his differences with the Empire, and all the human races of Tamriel, and maybe the Dark Elves and Argonians as well, would be able to rise up, under one banner and defeat the Thalmor.
That’s wishful thinking, I know, but if the powers at hand could see just how evil the Thalmor are, and realize that the Thalmor are a threat, not just to Nordic life, but the life all non-Altmer races, then the Thalmor would be in trouble.
The leaders of the races are just too bone-headed to see that and are too busy being stubborn and idiotic.
An independent Skyrim isn’t the end of the world really, but an independent and isolated Skyrim is. Does it really matter if Skyrim governs itself if it’s still allied with the Empire? It can secede from the Empire and still have trade. It can still have a real alliance. The Stormcloak Rebellion, with as good of intentions as it holds, dashes any sort of chance for Skyrim and the Empire to coexist in an alliance without war against the Thalmor being eminent.
Again, Ulfric’s idea is justified and very much well intended, but his execution and actions are not ideal and do more harm than good.
@@dntwrryitsdj_ Indeed, I once had an idea where the dovakiin becomes high king, and after the war the dovakiin meets up secretly with general tullius to tell him "Skyrim will be independent, however, if as I believe will happen, a second war with the dominions occurs, you can call on skyrim in your time of need and we will fight beside you."
If only Ulfric asked for Indepedence for Skyrim, maybe just maybe, King Torygg might have actually done it.
... The empire was already planning in the shadows, its just that they need to keep up an act, so the elves wont attack immediately. They were trying to buy time by pretending to comply... Now ulfric being a frikking idiot, decided to go ahead and attack the empire... sighhh
Solitude only Imperial until the Stormcloaks take over
All hail to Ulfric! You're the High King!
Emrah asar That remains to be seen, but knowing Bethesda they’ll say the season unending stalemate was canon and Skyrim is still as divided as ever.
you should do a video on the godhead, chim and zero summing. oh and the salkas.
NO! Godhead? get out with your fanfics
it's a thing. read more in-game books.
What is zero summing
Someone Who Really Cares fanfic? hardly. you should read some in game fucking books to know that shit. you don't know shit.
tripplehd #thedragon it's when you realize you're dreamed up being, so you don't exist so therefore you disappear from the whole universe and it'll be like you were never there.
Rhexx, I really like your videos, they are like academy level law school history lectures provided with such a well thought out world as TES. I also think they get more interesting towards a yet unseen/unknown release or announce of a next tes game, given it will be chronologically later than skyrim, even if it's not, I bet the previous games will be reflected in it. Your type of thinking in the videos provides food for thought and reflexion on our history and day to day life, on the importance of concepts, on ideas that lay the foundation of civility, on seemingly indubious laws, which really are projections and results of dice of history, objective reasons, chance and human ingredient. This virtual world with all of it's quite real godlinesses, creationisms and literal magic still is made by its creators as a reflection of our imperfect one with all of its historic cataclysms, tragedy, genocides and complexity and variety of the worldviews, knowledge and absurdity of being. So I think what you do with your game knowledge is a form of art, I'll definetely keep watching.
The thing you said about the voice being supposed to be used to praise the gods is false.
Thats the greybeard/jurgen/paarthurnax opinion
The way of the voice
Grandfather of the voice Akatosh never stated that mortals were only supposed to use the voice to this specific goal only.
Ulfric is the true high king of skyrim!
I think the thuum was perfectly legal bc the dragons used it to battle so do the greybeards then the line of the royals come from the dragon born so I would think it would be legal considering the emporer
The Greybeards very explicitly do NOT use the thu'um to do battle. That's kind of the whole purpose of the way of the voice. Even if they did, this wasn't a battle, it was a duel. And regardless of any of that, the Greybeards, while respected are not in charge and do not write laws for Skyrim or the empire, so what they do or do not do has no relevance to the legality of the topic.
Dragons aren't in charge any more so them using the thu'um has no relevance to what is and isn't legal according to Skyrim or the empire.
The emperor at the time of Skyrim has no relation to the Septim dynasty (which no longer exists after oblivion) and does not 'come from the dragon born'. Even if he did though, it's still made very clear that the Empire considers what Ulfric did to be illegal, so I don't understand what point you were trying to make here.
None of your point have any relevance whatsoever with regards to what is or is not legal in Skyrim or the Empire.
Ulfric challenged Torygg, and Torygg accepted. Torygg lost.
Gina Scala yep agreed. Ulfric defeated Torygg in the way of the Nords
Nah. Torygg was half his age with none of his battle experience. He used an over powered cheap shot to knock his enemy down and struck the killing blow while he couldnt defend himself. Thats not a duel. Thats murder
Rich Doe But the voice is a nord art, in the dragonborn bard song they say it’s a nord ancient art, so using the voice is something that a true nord should use
@@richdoe48 If you cant protect yourself, how can you protect Skyrim and her people.
@Jyleninjago kyle it is also a handicap. A man with honor wouldn't have ussued the challange against such a lesser man to begin with, but he had to prove a point. At the very least he shouldnt have used the voice while making the demonstration.
Just to point out that by 4E when Skyrim takes place the Empire has been kicked out of Morrowind. House Redoran is dominant, the Emperor says nothing about it :p.
Also, I'm not convinced the Elder Council replaces anyone... since its composition is not very detailed, we have no way to know.
But to meet the argument at hand, I think you're right. It's a lawful kill despite the motive and the action of using the Voice.
Technically, the Empire abandoned Morrowind; the Red Year and argonian conflict rendered the province worthless to the Empire.... i'm sure if Morrowind stabilizes and becomes productive once again, the Empire would send the Legion to subjugate the territory... and with not Tribunal anymore, it could get messy
Love listening to these, it's like I am listening to a podcast.
Ulfric hates lizard people so he's the worst no matter what
Gotta feel bad for Mark Zuckerberg.
Lol, he hates everyone except nords.
Fuck ligards
@Unkwon Malaysian Guy If he's racist, then why does he allow dark elves to live in 1/3 of his city? He even lets the Argonians live under his protection. Are there any Imperial jarls in Skyrim that allow that? Even in Solitude the citizens are racist to argonians.
o̶r̶a̶n̶g̶e̶ ̶m̶a̶n̶ ̶b̶a̶d̶
SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORDS!!!
and how much was Ulfric influenced by the Thalmor when he was a prisoner of them? He was considered an "asset" according to the docs you pick up at the Thalmore embassy!
Ulfric did have a good reason to fight the empire and the Thalmor.
Ulfric is a very controversial hardliner. He has done a lot of bad things, too, depending on who you ask. Ulfric clearly violated the rules of honor when using the thu'um in the duel, whether technically legal or not. Killing the high king destabilized the country. And wanting to split the empire is the wrong move when it comes to keep the Thalmor in check. Ulfric can't defend Skyrim in an all-out war without the empire backing him up against the elves. The concordat itself was a necessity for recovering strength after the war. All the internal fighting is exactly what the Thalmor want, because it further weakens the empire. Ulfric is a shortsighted fool, especially considering it was a Nord who founded the empire in the first place.
Pretty sure Talos was an Atmoran not a 'Nord.'
But I get your point.
You talked about how a council decides who will be Jarl in each Hold if there is no heir, but Ulfric appointed Jarls of his own choosing when he conquered them. They were his puppet leaders.
And the people who replace the Stormclocks Jarls for the Imperial Legion aren't, if you're going to hold the enemy to such standards, you need to hold your allies to the same.
@james739123 I am, that's why I'm saying it.
I've only ever once sided with the Empire, and every playthrough since has been Stormcloak.
Technically it wasn't illegal because of Nord traditions, so it wasn't murder. That being said, Nord traditions are pretty barbaric.
Pun intended.
Anyone else kill tullius with Unrelenting Force lol
I did lol
I killed Ulfric with the same move.
karma
Nope, soul tear, it said no soul found, but at least he died.
Toostee I killed ulfric like that
i love watching Rhexx and i love it when he mispronounces words like Greybeers instead of Greybeards
SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORDS (khajiits welcome)
Nord wears Lots of furs which makes MAiq a little nervous
This may get some hate
But personally I am a true member of the Empire
The duel was a legal nord traditional
The shout wasn't
I chose the empire because i want all of us to work as a team against the thalmor, not split up into hundreds of disorganized fragments...
Ps i used to be a stormcloak but i left because i dont think they give a damn about bretons...
TJ HedgeScout the empire destroys the nords army and piss off the redguard army (that will no longer be willing to help it anymore) and then be a team? lol
I dont know what else to do, I don't want Ulfric's people shitting on me because im not a nord and what about the rest of Tamriel? My species originated from High Rock, i'm worried about the thalmor, i fear they might try to destroy my home land.
TJ HedgeScout join us,breton and you'll have a chance against this threat "proudly"
There was a cut quest i think where you talk to Morthal's steward and can get the Jarl there replaced with someone more sympathetic to the Empire.
What's the difference?
What’s the difference between me and you?
Love you Rexx
3:28 "The Empire currently owns Skyrim."
But the Aldmeri Dominion's Thalmor have strongarm the Empire.
first time i play skyrim, i join imperial, that time when i killed ulfric with his own sword, i realize that i made a huge mistake, i kill a leader of native people who want his homeland free from thalmor supremacy and the imperial, and free to worship a god their believe, from that moment, i restart my save game, play as nord, join stormcloak and yell "SKYRIM BELONG TO THE NORD"
Yeah, I don't know how people can wander around cities like Riften or Windhelm and not feel like shit for destroying the Nords way of life. The ending also clearly shows the Empire is led by incompetent psychopaths who are no better than the Thalmor.
Tullius screams at Rikke for simply saying the word Talos, he has been a racist egocentric asshole all the time but he pretends he "learned to appreciate the Nord" after committing a genocide against them, and he talks about "the peace with the Thalmor not lasting for long" when the Empire is at its weakest point in History. And that's among the "best generals" of the Empire?
@@dwight3555 SCREAMS!? HE SCREAMS!??!
As someone who Shouted Ulfric in the same way he did to Toryyg. Tullius did NOT scream at Rikke. He simply said "What was that Legate?" She said "Nothing, just saying goodbye" and he just goes "Ok". He was not pissed, he did not scream. He just "didn't catch that"
@@dwight3555 racist egocentric asshole... sounds like Ulfric, jk. But no, his not racist. His basically that American who went to a new country to learn. Of course he'll make mistakes and might accidentally be racist. Also genocide? Really? All you did was captured like 4 forts and siege a city. While killing less then 40 people.
If you wanna learn what a genocide is, ask Knight-Paladin Gelebor
Solitude Guard: *Watchses Jarl Ulfric Stormcloak leave the Blue Palace* I use to be an adventurer like you. Then I took an arrow to the knee.
Thumbnail armor mod is "Stormlord Armor"
Ulfric is a murderer and ESO is my evidence. Jorunn the Skald-King is one of the few recorded people to participate in a traditional duel:
1. Both sides agree to the duel.
2. They fight until one of the two is bested, or if one of the two yields.
3. Victor takes the lands of the defeated and banishes the defeated from his lands.
Ulfric straight up killed Torygg, it's murder, simple as that. When you kill someone in a duel you are just proving that you are strong, not that you are better leader.
eso is not canon (ulfric is still a murderer tho)
gerard s eso is canon, the developers confirmed it, quit denying it ya band-wagoneer.
really? i dont really keep up with what the devs say?
A leader need to be someone who isn’t afraid to get their hands dirty. Killing torygg was justified
The duel is something until someone lose, not until they die. if you have a duel with a certain NPC, you just let them suffocate and then they get up again, you don't kill them. because losing in a duel mean dead in real battle
"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil! I fight for their wives and children, whose names I heard whispered in their last breath. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing! I fight... because I must."
1. ''I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil!''
Ahh yes, the three years of war before he fled back to Skyrim....
2. ''I fight for we few who did come home''
Don't kid yourself, Ulfric. You came home years before the Legions did.
3. ''an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves!''
Again, this Empire is currently massacring the Stormcloaks, and only branded Ulfric a criminal for commiting murder.
As always, Ulfric and his Stormcloaks base everything on emotion.
well, it is of course a well known fact that
SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORDS!!!!
The reach belongs to the Forsworn!!!
No, skyrim belongs to the snow elves because they were the first to be here
@@RJM-rc6bd Then they were destroyed by the Nords and their land conquered. Right by Conquest ring any bells? Now return that sweet roll, thief! *Idles Menacingly*
What would happen if Sheogorath were The High King? XD
Bring Me All THe CHEEZE!!!!!!
Wow, So he walked in, challenged the high king to battle that he clearly knew he was going to win, obviously won the battle, and walked out.
In the end who cares? The thalmor are going to do the inevitable, destroy all of Nirn. The God's intended that anyways, but the dragonborn and all the rest stopped it out of ignorance and selfishness. Just let the world burn, I say!
I agree with this .... They disrupted the natural order of things ....just to get a few extra years...in the end Alduin will end all of it....as it should be. I am not an expert on lore....but this is how I see it. While I hate most of the Thalmor....I would say I sympathize with their ideals a little more...they believe that they are the Fae descendants from Aedra and wish to end the world so they can return to their Aedric existence.
Ulfric didn't murder him. He fell in a fair fight.
fair and legally fought... the High King even ratified it.
.... if anyone says it was an illegal fight, the King would be guilty of fighting it as well, so if he had won, the Empire would seek to execute him... bet no one thought of that possibility
but in nordic duels at his level you are not allowed to kill the person you just have to beat them and then banish them
Wolves600Gaming
Not true at all man, the intent is the death of the opponent
not for this high up of nobles as they are important people
Wolves600Gaming
What exactly are you basing this off of? and why would no Nords in Skyrim, including Torygg who fully accepted the fact that he would die as a result of accepting the challenge, know about this if it were a legitimate term?
...Torygg accepted the challenge, for to not do so would mean his being deposed by his people.. and seeing as he knew he didn't stand a chance, if losing would have meant the same thing, why wouldn't he decline the challenge and be removed from power?
Do you think that King Torygg’s line might have started during the Oblivion crisis? I’ve been replaying Oblivion lately, and I’ve noticed that one of the dialogues between the citizens is “Skyrim is at war again”. Just speculation and theory at this point, but it could fit.
I really like your lore videos. Whereas most channels' videos just feel like people stating a list of facts like a teacher would (which is completely fine in and of itself), when you do lore videos it feels like you're having a conversation with us, not just stating a list of facts. It feels really... comfy? I guess is the right way to describe it?
Hammerfell is independence and hammerfell still stands I'm pretty sure Skyrim independent as well
While not set in stone it is assumed that the thuum is allowed because when you shout in any hold and a guard comes up to you and asks you to stop and youchoose an agressive option they will say that there are no laws against what you are doing so i assume that the same applies for other forms of combat
Dude your just the best keep going and never stop
Talos did use the voice.