Real people are never perfect, everyone has their good traits and bad, everyone has their own ideas and goals and values. There will always be people who disagree over various topics and earnestly believe that someone else is wrong, it's just reality and that's why flawed character feel more real.
Flawed is one way to put it lol. The more you listen to his words, the more you learn the more you notice that he might straight up be the bad guy. Just viewed with the rose tinted glasses from the inside, his side of the story.
@@monhi64 I have never once thought that Ulfric was a horrible person. Horribly traumatized and wracked with grief after he was tortured for 4 years, manipulated into believing he gave up vital information, and then his father died while he was in prison.
@@back2thedrawingboard852that doesnt excuse blatant racism and general lack of concern for the wellbeing of skyrim though. At a minimum Ulfric is pitifully shortsighted and power hungry. Even if he gets rid of the Empire, he will not stand a chance against the Thalmor. The Thalmor are the real enemy, and by having his rebellion he is weakening the empire and playing right into the Thalmor’s hands.
@@ava4689 as soon as he wins the civil war, he immediately turns to the thalmor. He doesn't care about "getting back at the empire", or else he would be attacking them afterwards. He believes that the Empire is inept. Whether this is true or not, he believes it (I personally even believe that the Empire isn't bad). Also if you're going to talk about racism in the Elder Scrolls, you are going to be pointing fingers at literally everyone. Ulfric is progressive compared to the Thalmor, An-Xileel, and pretty much all of Morrowind.
@@troller8680 not even practically, they flat out are lol. Esp the "soul" dragonborns over the "blood" dragonborns - a speculatory distinction but I would say the Alessia dragonborns and the Tiber Septim style dragonborns are different, the Septim ones having real dragon souls and therefore near divinity without any kind of augmentation. Our DB goes through so much canon augmentation its not funny, bro could probably hold an entire front against the dominion on his own lol. On dragonback, of course
Everyone else is just so useless they can't do anything themselves. Mage's College can't even retrieve overdue library books. Thieves' Guild can't break into a beekeeper's house. Dark Brotherhood is led by a Nord. Companions are FULL of Nords. Windhelm is FULL of Nords and can't catch a serial killer despite him being super sloppy, leaving evidence in a vacant house easily discovered. It's utterly pathetic.
One that should be mentioned what he says in Sovengarde if you kill him. He shows regret for not stopping the war to focus on stopping Alduin and feels somewhat responsible for what he believes is Alduins inevitable victory. And instead of showing hostility towards you he shows concern and tells you to not let Alduin find you. And after Alduin is defeated, if you talk to him again he will still hold no grudge (although Galmar will) and will instead show gratitude for stopping Alduin. I recommend anyone who hasn’t look at what Ulfric says in Sovengarde both before and after Alduin is stopped
I’ve heard what he has to say after I killed him but for the life of me I can never find him in the mist, also I never found galmar in there before or after killing alduin. Welp time to see if the wiki has the answers I seek
My history professor in college once said: "Soldiers win battles, Politicians win wars". If we study every instance of great leaders and conquerors from Alexander the Great to Genghis Khan, these men are both exceptional on the battlefield and great politicians in their own right. Ulfric is a legendary warrior and a great leader of men no doubt, but a politician, he is not. He uses violence and conflict to resolve issues and is unyielding in his cause, but he doesn't know how to comprise.
@@svenkrules9855 That’s a very interesting and good point. I wonder however if exactly that makes Ulfric a fitting candidate for a country like Skyrim. An uncompromising warrior King. Just sounds very „nordic“.
@@Hawaiian_Pizza_EnjoyerCorrect me if I’m wrong, but I think that’s a point brought up on one of fudgemuppets video, the comparison of the stormcloaks and legion.
I always support Ulfric, because even if Skyrim separates from the Empire, they would still be strong allies against the Thalmor in the second war. Also, Talos deserves to be in the pantheon of divines. Period. It was the blessing of Talos that allowed the Hero of Kvatch to defeat Umaril and save the world.
I personally don't support Ulfric because he's so headstrong and blind to the bigger picture. The Thalmor want the Stormcloaks and Imperials fighting so they'll be weakened for an Altmer takeover. The Imperials didn't call for a truce because they wanted to join the Thalmor, they just needed to lick their wounds and even though they agreed to the Elves terms the truce was never going to last. Ulfric however can't wait for the Imperials to regain their strength. He needs the fight to happen now or he'll die and bring every other strong Nord to death alongside himself. Ulfric is a good leader and a strong warrior but unfortunately he's a bad politician. Even if Skyrim was liberated it wouldn't prosper under his rule, he can only conquer. He's not even good at conquering either because he doesn't see the civil war for what it really is, a proxy for the second war with the Thalmor.
If the Thalmor were to be stopped, then there would be a true right and wrong answer. If I had to pick the side with the best possible chance of doing that, I'd have to go with an entire Empire over a group of angry Nords with a thirst for elf blood.
@@cj1gaming102 the nords beat back the elves more than once and under the Dragonborn they could do so again. The empire is dying, theyve lost territory after territory and even keeping skyrim would be a bandaid solution at best, plus the nords already sent the empire their warriors and the empire squandered them. Better to leave it to die and build a strong skyrim that could stand up to the altmer than die a slow death with them.
@SirDonut There's no Empire if Skyrim is out. Hammerfell will never forgive Cyrodil. They need a free Skyrim to approach the Redguards with a new alliance. Not occupation, but three free human nations working together.
That's because even if weakened they are worse off. Apparently they only got as far as they did in the first war thanks to a Daedra artifact allowing them to literally spy on their enemies at all the time, which they lost. Even still, their losses are of a greater impact then the Empire.
I agree I feel like that was intentionally placed in the game to tell the player as long as you end the war, you are doing your part. But I feel like people overlook it. The truth is that if the empire is driven out of Skyrim it’s not a devastating loss, they’ll simply just stop putting resources into Skyrim. This allows the stormcloaks and the empire to strengthen over time. And as long as the empire acknowledges Skyrim as independent, the two factions would likely work together again.
the Stormcloaks winning would be the biggest "oh shit" moment for the Thalmor and if those scumbags wanna stay alive, running outta Skyrim would be the only way. Thalmor staying in a Stormcloak ruled Skyrim might as well be into being killed
@@GenericUsername-qp1ww right mind you my character is half dark elf half redguard (roleplay reasons) on one hand the stormcloaks are just ignorant on the races of elves and think all elves follow the same doctrine as the Altmer, and when you go into the New Gnisis Cornerclub there’s imperial armor with an OFFICER helmet meaning the dark elf that owns it has BEEN in the legion so i can see an argument made either way there, but as for my redguard half they ran off the dominion, not to mention I’m a Dragonborn once the war is over with I just walk to the embassy and use the storm call shout 🙄🙄 they seemed easy enough to take down to me 🤣🤣🤣 not to mention i can call a dragon in AND summon one from the Soul Cairn
@@Crispy3031 "on one hand the stormcloaks are just ignorant on the races of elves and think all elves follow the same doctrine as the Altmer" yet there are 4 Altmer who live in and around Windhelm, Nurelion, Niranye and the 2 who work in the stables and the woman when she complains, its not about the nords or Stormcloaks, its about horses. If Ulfric and the Stormcloaks in genral were racist towards elves then there is no way in hell theyd be allowed anywhere near Windhelm. Also not to mention the general goods vendor in Falkreath who isnt racist yet was a Stormcloak and clearly doesnt approve of his non-Stormcloak brothers racism the dunmer of the Grey Quarter should be grateful they were allowed in the city at all, and all the whining from the bartender Ambarys 100% sounds like the kind of person who would be on twitter/X all day long whining about "them big mean nords"
Even though we've heard this story a dozen times or more, Drew's narration still manages to make it as captivating as if we're hearing it for the first. Another spectacular video!
Does it? I need logic when discussing lore, not theatrics. I can't glean much out of these videos other than someone trying to ham it up without saying much.
@@CodeguruX he's literally using in game quotes and factoring in different sides of the same events to help us form our own conclusion i think you just aren't listening well enough
Too bad so many fans can't recognize the Moral Greyness. Picking a side is supposed to be a moral delima due to the flaws on both sides. However, many fans are too dim to recognize the racists undertones of the Stormcloaks' Ultranationalism or too clueless to see the issue with the Empire's persecution of Nordic religious beliefs.
I initially chose the Empire for the realistic goal of actually killing the Aldmeri Dominion and that I generally play as an Imperial or Redguard. Now I mostly just don't pick a side. The main quest is HEAVILY enhanced by the negotiation discussion.
Way too well. On one hand I feel siding with the empire is the proper move. Long term at least. But how can you not look at what the empire did and be infuriated. Such a good quest line when you really think about it.
@@Azraelseraphim Steward would've been too much of a "Face" position, something she does not really want, given her, huh, un-life situation. As a Court Wizard she can get way with her shenanigans with the excuse of just doing wizard bussiness.
Yeah I’ve put in in literal thousands of hours since day one and have NEVER heard her thoughts on that. That’s the beauty of Skyrim and devoted developers right there.
She's kinda like a demi-god of Solitude with here being a vampire. She has the life spand and the knowledge to consider decisions long after the deaths of the people who made them. Stentor also seems distrustful of the elvish as well considering how she speaks of Erinier
@@FourScore460 I would imagine Stentor's distrust of elves stems from her own half breed status (Bretons being manmer) and her people's enslavement by the Direnni.
I always had a different interpretation of Ulfric talking about 'fighting so all the fighting we've done isn't for nothing'. He is absolutely WRACKED with guilt. He fought in the Great War, and spilled a LOT of blood. But his side lost. He came home, and went to Markarth, and killed countless Forsworn, whether or not what happened after was under his orders. He believes, according to the Thalmor Dossier, that information he let slip was critical for Imperial defeat. Ulfric was trained in the Way of the Voice, the way of Jurgen Windcaller, a man who said to never raise the voice in battle, but only for worship - he betrayed that philosophy in order to go and fight in a war that he lost, that he believes he played no small part in losing, and that cost him being by his father's side when he died. Ulfric blames himself. He NEEDS to win independence for Skyrim. He needs to have a single victory that he feels he can point to and say he genuinely got the result he wanted. He needs people to see him as a great leader, because he feels like they can never know the truth: that he himself feels like a failure. He needs to fight, because otherwise all the fighting he's done - the lives he's ended, the family he missed and likely now will never have, the ancient Nord philosophy he betrayed - has been for nothing. So there can be no justification to himself for all the evils he feels he's committed.
He only killed elves and reachmen, nothing to feel guilty about. One a aliens made by a god that wanted to destroy the world the others are basically goblins.
He may feel that he needs to do it, but that could still just be argued to be his own twisted perspective, especially since what he wants-for Skyrim to be free of the Aldmeri Dominion-is what the Empire wants too, it's just that Ulfric doesn't realize that. The Stormcloaks propagandize that the Empire doesn't care about Skyrim or Talos, but that rhetoric is mostly just them being in an echo chamber. And as for Ulfric, he doesn't want to do long-term planning, he wants to take care of injustices immediately. Even the game manual states this about him: _...he is a great warrior and a natural-born leader, but lacks the cool head of a strategist._
@@georgemurdock7670 Do I want to hear the take on Argonians of a guy who argues that three (fictionnal, so there's that at least) ethnic groups have no right to life and uses a picture of Legate Lanius as a profile picture? No, no I do not.
Personally Ulfric and Tullius might just be the best written characters in the entire game. I like the idea that he had given up to a degree in Helgen. When they were ambushed he is said to have surrendered somewhat early. While each side has its own interpretation, I'm inclined to believe Ralaf when he says Ulfric surrendered to save his men. He of all people would know what a losing battle looks like, and it's entirely within his character to prioritize his people at this point in his life. That being said, I also believe he was affected more than the game would let on by the realization that Elenwen of all people was there. His captor, his torturer. Speaking with the General sent to end his rebellion about, Talos knows what. The response he would have had to that sight could have been anywhere from blinding hot rage, to abject horror. To top it off, the entire reason he surrendered was made pointless when the Empire decides to execute all captives in a surprisingly brutal shift from what would be considered war etiquette. In a world with Stendarr, executing prisoners of war is generally frowned upon. Even in something like a civil war, I doubt there would be as much of that. Enraged, saddened, terrorized. Any number of intense emotions were probably going through him in that moment. First to the block, a comrade. Someone who followed HIM into this. *thud* next (if you pick a nord) a fellow countryman, dragged into this simply for being nearby.... Then the Dragon. This served as the wake up call he needed. When Alduin slams into the tower, and Ulfric sees him in full glory he's almost awestruck. However, then the dragon spoke... Shouted!? Having some knowledge of the Thu'um, he may have understood the phrase and had some idea what was about to happen. At the very least he'd have recognized a shout immediately. He snaps out of whatever state he was in and rushes to the nearest tower, ushering his men in with him. He takes control and keeps calm, but underneath I believe he was barely holding it together. Still he pushes through and the experience serves to reinvigorate his belief. Helgen was as much the beginning of the game for Ulfric, as it was for your own character. To summarize, Ulfric hit what he thought was rock bottom in that cart. He sees his abusive ex talking to his new boo and falls apart. He realizes he just walked his men into a literal death sentence. It's a bird! it's a cliffracer! It's... Alduin!? Dragon takes o er the priority list for the moment. Snap back to reality. Escape from the city. Reignited flames of passion for Ellywelly and the Tully Boy.
Wonder if Ulfric realized or ever even suspected that the Thalmor were trying to take him not to torture (or at least not just to torture) but so they could engineer his 'escape' to keep the civil war going and the Empire weak...
@@JaceMorley if he would have thought that he likely would have "joined" the empire and ended the rebellion there refusing to be a pawn in elf deceptions. Not without demanding major concessions of course. Perhaps demanding tullius secede skyrim in its entirety while pledging to aid the empire when the time is right against the thalmor. At his best with unusual cunning the civil war might "continue" by moving the hot spot to Markarth. Ulfrich would "convince" the Falkreith jarl to follow him while letting the empire secretly continue buying the jarl's loyalty and set the new front line there. The "war" would continue as a stalemate in the mountains while both sides root out the remaing reachmen and attribute casualties to the other side, letting them minimize losses, build up reserves, and fully complete the pacification of the area to further assist solidifying skyrim all while thalmor think they still have both sides in their pocket. Of course this is Ulfrich we're talking about, he'd go his own way, start crap with the thalmor and bring in more dominion people to do what the empire couldn't. Still at night buy the empire time it need to rebuild.
@Motley I don't think so. If you read the dossiers, the thalmor wanted to break him out but they didn't know how they were gonna do it at Helgen. When the dragon shows up, ulfric escapes on his own. And I quote "Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed." (Thalmor Dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak)
There is a good chance that even if Skyrim becomes independent high rock will also follow suite. But all of them such as Hammerfell, Skyrim, High Rock, and Cyrodill will band together like the All Flags Navy thousands of years ago as an alliance of men to preserve their species. We don’t fully need an empire controlling everything all the time.
@@galacticknight55544 They really aren't. Their corse is admirable. How they fill it is bad, delusional and the surest way of getting controlled by the Elves only a few years after. I basically support ever independece movement in the world because I strongly believe in self determination over "keep together what already is". But thinking about it for more than 2 seconds in the grand scheme of things? Rather support the Empire so Skyrim has a REAL chance of getting independent down the line. The stormcloaks are also legit too stupid to understand the concept of getting your ass kicked (them included) and signing a treaty under duress.
@@GermanPlayNetwork You underestimate them. Skyrim has many natural defenses like mountains, a sea filled with icebergs, and extreme cold. It also has a lot of potential allies available including Hammerfell, which was able to hold out against the Thalmor all on its own. Skyrim isn't going to be fighting the Dominion by itself. It's going to ally with as many human kingdoms as possible.
I feel like the answer is in between. Ulfric is a Gullible and Hard Headed man who's standing up for what he believes is right, which in a way his cause is noble. However, he is blind to the destruction that he causes, and how he's wedging the Empires plan to invade the Aldmeri Dominion themselves. Despite this, he still intends to help the Empire fight the Elves if he wins, so ultimately it comes down to whether or not you dislike the Empire.
The empire wont invade the dominion, they wont even attack them. If they wanted victory they could have archived it long ago. Right after the peace treaty, when the elves turned there backs away from cyrodiil towards hammerfell, they could had acted and attacked the elves from behind and off guard. When the elves retreated after accepting the peace with hammerfell, they could have attacked the remaining dominion forces in there country and remove there presence from cyrodiil, forcing them to bring there war tired and decimated main force back again. When ulfric declared independence, there was nothing that stopped them from just accepting skyrims independence, so that he rebuild skyrim without elven supervision. The medes, are illegitimate and don’t care for the empire, or men in general, at least way way less then for there own power and riches. Mede surrendered the empire when his live was at risk, even tho Hammerfell stood alone against the dominion and succeeded. The empire, if they hadn’t capitulated in order to save the emperors head, would had demolished the dominion over time. Now the medes know in a war that the dominion could reach them, that a war might means there deaths, and they didn’t risked there lives for the empire in the past, they wont do so in the future. They rather send there best generals to fight there own, people that always stood true to the empire, whos ancestors helped build it, who gave the imperials there freedom, who helped raise the flag of akatosh, that only through there blood was created out of nothing, over tamriel so many times. All while dining with heads of the dominion, allowing e*ves within the city wall like they are actual people and not the representation of evil on nirn. The "we will attack the dominion" is a thing the emperor tells his generals so they can sleep tight, and not overthrow him from his so beloved throne. Because if they really would have want war, they would have attacked already.
There is no more Empire-the great war saw to that, and while they may carry on the name its just Cyrodilic bureaucracy grasping at the waning straws of former glory. Hammerfell is gone, Hlaalu is gone, Skyrim is in open rebellion. The former territories govern themselves best, not some corrupt hapless burecracy clinging to the vestiges of former glory.
The biggest flaw of Ulfric's is one he is not actually aware of. The Dominion has been shadowing and allowing Ulfric victories and political power as a pawn in a greater game. He is the perfect stooge and political figure to break Skyrim in two unwittingly. I believe their presence in Helgen at the start was no accident, and I'm sure they would have stayed Ulfric's execution at the last minute to _interrogate_ him, then conveniently allow him escape. But, Alduin showed up and the rest is history. I'm sure if Ulfric knew the greater scheme going on, he'd probably be more of an ally to the Empire (which would be a backfire scenario to the Dominion). The Dominion fears the Empire and its resurgence, so they have to create petty warlords and manufacture civil unrest to distract and divide without coming off as an active and open enemy (though, Tulius and others are somewhat suspect and wise to their schemes). They tried in Hammerfell and vastly underestimated the Redguard's resolve, so they continue to probe and weaken the states around Cyrodiil to foment a total and decisive victory through governmental collapse versus a grinding and brutal Second War (they almost lost the last one, save that Titus Mede did not bother to counter-attack Alinor).
Empire as we know it in Skyrim can't oppose the Dominion. It is disoriented, broken and ultimately headless - it is done for. I can see scenarios of an all new human empire rising from the ashes of the Medes' one, but it won't be a peaceful reformation, it will be forged in revolution and wars yet again.
@@the36lessons11 The civil war prolonged is what the Thalmor want, with Ulfric dead it would likely of lead to a swift victory by the Empire, however in the same document where they say they don't want an imperial victory to happen, they also say Stormcloak victory is to be avoided too, whichever side you choose ultimately leads to a swift victory anyway.
Ulfric as a character is just so well written and his reasonings for hating the Empire go far further than most people care to look into. Giving up his childhood training as a Grey Beard to go and fight for the Empire, getting captured and tortured into revealing information that ultimately didn't add to anything but being made to believe it did, retaking Markarth in exchange for free Talos worship in the city and then being handed over to the Elves instantly afterwards and being imprisoned for 25 YEARS. His hatred for the Empire is entirely justified for what they did to him, he loved the Empire at one time in his life and they betrayed him, not just by forsaking their own founder and banning worship of him but also for being handed over to the Elves in the blink of an eye. The Empire allows their own citizens to be taken and tortured by the Elves for worshipping Talos.....they forsake their own founder, and they kill their fellow man for wanting to be free. They'd rather waste men and resources fighting the Stormcloaks rather than granting Skyrim its freedom and fighting alongside them against the Elves. I respect the Stormcloaks for breaking away from a dying Empire that's been a slave to the Elves for over 30 years, its better to die free than to be a slave. Ulfric has a good ending in BOTH civil war quest lines, "The Empire I remember never surrendered" and whenever Rikke and Tulius confront him in Windhelm Rikke tells him that "Skyrim doesn't belong to him", and like the true patriot he is responds "no but I belong to her" then goes to Sovngarde after being killed. I really hope the new game doesn't screw him over because he is one of the best characters in the Elder Scrolls universe.
@@dutchpatriot17 If you truly believe Ulfric collaborated with the Thalmor to help them win the great war you may might be one of the stupidest people I've ever met, have you ever played Skyrim? Why would he be fighting this war if he was collaborating with the Thalmor or had collaborated with them in the past? It boggles my mind because I think most people don't even listen to anything Ulfric says in game because they just sit there and put lines of dialogue in his mouth that he never says or they read the the journal in the Thalmor embassy and think it means he's a spy. You do know Ulfric is a character you can actively interact with and watch what he does and says right? If Ulfric is a spy for the Thalmor then his words and actions for the ENTIRE game make no sense, all of his patriotic speeches are just an act? He's secretly in bed with the Aldmeri Dominion? Your train of thinking here makes no sense at all.
@@noadmre7493 Who says anything about the Great War? Ulfric established direct and cooperative contact with the Thalmor after the Great War had concluded, and he then started proving his worth as an asset to them. Remember how after the Great War Talos worship was officially outlawed? Fun fact, it wasn't enforced. As Alvor states, people didn't pay much attention to the ban when he was a boy, everyone still had their shrines to Talos. It wasn't until Ulfric and his Stormcloaks started agitating about the "ban" that the Emperor was forced to crack down and allow the Justiciars in. And when was that? At the Markarth Incident. Where Ulfric demanded "free Talos worship" in exchange for liberating the Reach. Where Ulfric demanded the Empire openly break the terms of the Concordat in order to regain control of Markarth. The Empire agreed, tried to keep quiet about the deal, but alas. Ulfric, through his direct contact with the Thalmor, made the Thalmor aware of what happened. Of course, Ulfric did not count on being played by the Thalmor. Which is why when the Thalmor showed up and demanded his arrest, it resulted in Ulfric's status as a Thalmor asset turning "dormant" and him becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact. As for why Ulfric is fighting this war? For power. For the throne. Everything else is a smokescreen. He never tried the diplomatic route with Torygg, despite Torygg venerating Talos, and he had no qualms literally blackmailing someone for venerating Talos either. Ulfric's past collaborations with the Thalmor is a fact.
@@noadmre7493 don't listen to that imperial cock sucker, he lies countless times on things related to the lore, deliberately ignores actual proof that the Stormcloaks are right, and spins it into imperial propaganda that paints the stormcloaks in a negative light whenever he does acknowledges it.
It’s specifically stated the thalmor didn’t start kidnapping people till after ulfric rebelled also that very founder says in morrowind he more or less doesn’t care about the empire anymore and given tiber septim who makes up part of talos was a evil person it’s debatable if worshipping him is correct
I wonder what Elenwen did to him? Must’ve been something very bad judging from his reaction to seeing her at the peace talks at High Hrothgar in Season Unending. Maybe something more than conventional torture happened behind closed doors. There is also cut dialogue with Elenwen trying to demand Tullius release Ulfric over to her custody in Helgen I recall. There’s also an amulet of Talos in Elenwen’s safe in her bedroom, maybe that was Ulfric’s?
I believe in Ulfric's cause but I'm not very sure about him personally. He thinks that his challenge of Torygg proves his right to rule but Torygg accepted the challenge knowing that death was inevitable. At that point who is actually stronger in spirit. Using the Thu'um to do the deed was his mistake. If he had given inexperienced Torygg at least a little time to train, had not used the Shout to kill him, and had showed mercy to Torygg in the end would probably done more to advance his cause than just killing him would have.
I think that's the most glaring evidence that ulfric is a fool (and arguably a liar.) He had the opportunity to resolve his political issue through political means, but instead chose murder (which is 100% accurate - if i challenge you to a duel with swords, then pull out a derringer and shoot you in the heart, that's murder) and the consequent war. The nord's bled for Ulfric's pride, not for skyrim nor freedom.
@@iwantsomecookies08 Ulfric chose to resolve matters according to ancient Nord tradition. To call Ulfric's challenge "murder" is to ignore the Nord culture that precedes and will live on after the event.
How long would it have taken for Torygg to grow strong enough to match Ulfric? Would Torygg even be capable of it? Would it be honorable to use a potentially impressionable Torygg as a puppet to rule a free Skyrim? And could Skyrim stand until a strong enough High King rose to the throne? Too many people think Ulfric a brash man who doesn't think his actions through because of the duel with Torygg, but he won that duel before it ever started and he knew it He knew that if Torygg turned down the duel then his point would be undeniable: the Imperial backed rule was cowardly But if Torygg accepted he knew that he would prove that Skyrim was being ruled by a fledgeling boy unable to match his Jarls or his people I don't think he went the best way about it, but his plan was perfect because it was a guaranteed win while also being ancient tradition which showed his respect for the old ways
@@Spike2276 It doesn't matter whether he could actually get enough experience to succeed. Ulfric giving him any time at all would have improved his position. In a world where the actions of the gods are visible every day, it is theoretically possible that he could have been aided by one or more gods. And even if Ulfric's winning the challenge was a foregone conclusion where is the honor in that. Knowing that you can crush an insect does not bring honor to doing it. Crushing a dragon now... that is honor.
During the execution, some Thalmor agents were present, probably to save him, if we go by the dossier. What is there to say about the Empire, that would have allowed the Thalmor to take Ulfric into custody, then let him escape AGAIN which would have prolonged the chaos that brought the weakening of the Empire itself? That to me, tells me that the Empire doesn’t have what it takes in the first place. Now, if the Empire + liberated Skyrim + various alliances, such as the Redguards detesting the Thalmors too, remains to be seen, but at worst, they’ll die as free people, which is better than dying as slaves.
Tullius literally told Elenwen and her Thalmor to piss off and went on with the execution anyway, lol... But you are right in saying that the Thalmor did try to save Ulfric's skin.
@@dutchpatriot17 It's even why the player character is getting thrown on the chopping block despite the circumstances. Tullius needs Ulfric executed fast before the Thalmor can manage to get him out of there, and that means skipping over pretty much all the normal due process in order to manage it.
As someone who chose the side of the Imperial 🟥 Legion 🐉, Danielson Eastman does feel remorse... What in the world was he thinking?... Perhaps he should've chose the Stormcloak 🟦 Rebellion 🐻... He really is feeling remorse even right now... But he does maintain that peace is the only option... By the way, I am the creator of the character Danielson Eastman...
Hammerfell and Skyrim vs Summerset, a battle of the ages, both terrible and glorious, Elder Scrolls 6 couldn't come out sooner so we could find the canon results of the war
tbf, from what I recall the war between hammerfell and the thalmor is immediately after the great war. So its not exactly a fair fight. the thalmor would be fighting a weakened skyrim with their full strength (likely even greater than the first great war). theres a reason the thalmor wanted to keep ulfric alive, he is their greatest champion in skyrim
We don't know the exact logistics of that conflict. We don't know the exact size of the army fighting in Hammerfell. What we do know is that the Red Guards didn't flat out beat the Thalmor.
@@Luxia-f1e that's totally wrong. The Dominion is definetly not recovered. Remember that the elves, long-living as they are, breed very slowly too. To the contrary, Hammerfell too was pretty devastated from the Great War.
Hammerfell is a hostile land, that's really what stopped the Thalmor from taking over. If the land had the topography of Cyrodil, the Redguards would have fallen
Nepos the Nose addresses how there are prisoners and other survivors after Ulfric's mass executions: *Nepos the Nose* _"Then Ulfric and his men came. Those of us who didn't run were executed, except for myself, my king, and a handful of others."_ Before anyone accuses Nepos of lying, Nepos has no reason to lie to the Dragonborn as Nepos expects the hero to be dead in the immediate future. *Dragonborn* _"Why are you telling me all this?"_ *Nepos the Nose* _"My dear boy, what makes you think you're getting out of here alive? You were seen coming in. The girl at the door is a Forsworn agent masquerading as a maid. You aren't the first one to have gotten this far. You won't be the last."_
Markarth Incident and Bear of Markarth cite war crimes on both sides...but Forsworn Braig says the Jarl had the executions, not Ulfric.....Could Nose be wrong without lying?
@@Ironislander4302 The Reachmen were peacefully ruling themselves while seeking to be an Imperial province like Orsinium. The Nords responded by indiscriminately massacring and torturing the loyal inhabitants. It is no wonder why they became radicalized.
@@badluck5647 You could make the same argument for Ulfric and his men, given how the Empire abandons it's provinces to the Thalmor. Wait so are you saying its evil for the Nords to want freedom from the Empire, but the hagraven worshippers ruling the Reach would be "peaceful"? Peace is the last thing that comes to mind when I cleanse the land of one of their (literally) blood soaked camps.
@@badluck5647 Additionally, unlike the Orcs they didn't peaceably inhabit Markarth, they invaded from the hillside when the Empire abandoned Skyrim to save the capital. Plus given how we've seen the Reachmen deal with the few prisoners they take I think it would be silly to assume they'd sack a Nord occupied with anything less than savagery
Skyrim/ES lore is so rich and detailed, but it can be hard to put all of it together. I appreciate these videos that create a story of all the bits and pieces, and the production quality is great.
Ulfric isn't wrong, but he's shortsighted. The Empire and Dominion are both playing the long game. They both recognize that the war never ended. There was just a temporary cease fire so they could prepare for round two. If Ulfric looked at the big picture, he'd see the utility in aiding the Dunmer refugees. He is uniquely well positioned to have Morrowind indebted to the Empire and Skyrim when the next war starts. That could be a major strike to the Thalmor.
That's the problem with nationalism, it wraps everyone up in a headstrong ambition of nationhood and ethnic superiority that make long term plans and politics meaningless.
@@logandickerson5628 They're also not in the position of power they once were. The living gods are long gone, Morrowind has been ravaged by natural disaster, and the Argonians have already taken advantage of their weakened state. They're not in a position to refuse aid. They have to take what they can get regardless of who it comes from. They don't have to like the empire, but they have to fight for it as long as that's where their refugees are going.
@@mindassassin I’m saying they won’t be grateful. They don’t give a shit about the nords and would likely side with the thalmar if given favorable treatment with them.
@@logandickerson5628 And I'm saying they don't have to be grateful if they don't have a choice. They have to side with whoever is taking their refugees. They may prefer that it be the dominion, but they can't refuse if it's the empire. The empire could take them all in before the dominion does and Morrowind would have very little choice but to fight with them. Skyrim, and particularly Windhelm, is in a position to do exactly that.
As a character, Ulfric is literally just Vivec: He claims to be the ruler of his province, while the Empire is actually the one in charge. He got this position by killing the previous ruler, but nobody can agree on exactly how that happened, with the people opposing him saying it was murder, while the people who support him say that it wasn't. He cares deeply for his own race and wants what's best for them, but not so much for any other race, especially the Argonians. He rules from a city that's divided into four quarters, with one quarter specifically for outsiders. The main faction that supports his rule are a group renowned for their battle prowess, are very nationalistic, with a love for their own traditions, and dislike outsiders, especially the Empire, and whose plan to take back their province is to route all those of their own race who support the Empire. He possesses a reality warping power derived from Tonal Architecture, which he uses for his own ends. He plays a big part in the lore of his game, but only appears briefly within the main quest. The game does not portray him as inherently good or evil, and whether he lives or dies is entirely up to the player.
@@back2thedrawingboard852 Vivecine is going to unite Skyrim and go to Akavir to befriend, betray and murder Nerevarine to get great power that will help him protect Skyrim from the elves
Uhm yeah everyone agrees Ulfric won and the high king lost to him well before (Also Nord tradition might makes right) I see why people don't like Ulfric but to 100% dismiss him you needa characters maxed at 50
@@zackdelarosa14 No. Several Npcs will tell you that he has ripped him into pieces with his voice and when confronted about it, Ulfric will say that he shouted at him and finished him without giving him a chance to even fight.
A strong and fascinating dive into the many layers of Skyrim's most controversial hero. I found the neutral approach to this analysis very thorough and appropriate, which is refreshingly appreciated. I look forward to the next video, and will look at previous videos too. Nicely done.
I was never a fan of the Stormcloaks until recently. I was using Skyrim Unbound to get a random start and decided to follow the faction quest for whatever city I randomly spawned in. I ended up in Windhelm, so Stormcloaks it was. I started following the quest and although they are clearly flawed people, they are understandable to me. Their desire to control their own destiny and not be held back by a government that doesn't serve their interests really really hit home for me. I can't remember who said it, but once I heard on of the NPCs state how the Empire was too weak to rule them, but wouldn't let them rule themselves I was all in with the Stormcloak rebellion.
I can totally see where they are coming from. Elisif is an idiot who doesnt understand her country and their customs. Honestly a good way to solve the civil war is to just elect balgruuf. He's neutral, understands how bad the empire can be, he understands his culture, and he csres only for his citizens.
Stormcloaks have very good reasons to be racist as well. Nords historically had to fight on their own. People just refuse to understand though because Nords are light skinned humans and they wanna be offended by something.
I never saw the problem with Ulfric. I mean, he just wanted to Make Skyrim Great Again. Is that truly so bad? No, no it's not damnit, stop acting like just because I'm a Dunmer literally 95% of the time means I cant support the spirit and principle of someone putting their homeland first.
Ulfric has to be one of my favorite characters out there due to how he divides the community. Funnily enough, vivec is more understood then him. I lean a little more to the imperials but the fact that tullius himself admits ulfric is partially right about the empire proves that ulfric isnt completely wrong either. If the second great war was over and ulfric wanted skyrim to leave i would support him. As the imperials have absolutely neutered the nords and their culture. They dont even worship their own pantheon anymore. But i can understand why they worship talos as they are worshipping the part of him thats wulfarth. To act like the empire are entirely the good guys is just flat out wrong. When it's war there are no good guys. And to act like ulfric is just some shallow man out for the thrown is also just petty. Ulfric is one of my favorite characters because of his depth, and because of the way you perceive him.
I always support Ulfric, because even if Skyrim separates from the Empire, they would still be strong allies against the Thalmor in the second war, and it would be better for Skyrim's morale. Also, Talos deserves to be in the pantheon of divines. Period. It was the blessing of Talos that allowed the Hero of Kvatch to defeat Umaril and save the world.
They *would* be strong allies, yes, but fighting the Dominion with the Imperials and the Stormcloaks, instead of a unified Imperial Legion, you do lose a degree of cohesion in the ranks that the Thalmor *could* exploit. Also, I like to think that if a second great war were to break out, the *first thing* the Empire would do is repeal the Talos ban. Since, you know, the Concordat is now null at that point.
@@tonystank3091 That may be true and had Hammerfell not already done what they, did against the AD, I would probably place more weight on it. As it stands, if the various statements made about the AD and the Empire are true, it wouldn't seem too far of a possibility for a couple of provinces like Hammerfell and Skyrim to really water-down the sting of the WG concordate if were to decide to wage a cooperative attack on the AD.
I'm typically of this mentality. No one is perfect. No side is perfect. And that should be acknowledged critically. This all said, I typically side with the Empire in the war, but make it a point to kill every Thalmor I can get away with killing.
@@theamazingincrediblespider9689 I tend to do the same, but also have the Second Great War mod installed, so I can push those elven bastards out of Skyrim once and for all.
I can understand and I can sympathize with the red card considering that the empire was going to give half of hammerfell to the Dominion Skyrim is in the same position that hammerfell
I love these lore videos. I can never get my Skyrim to look as good as these guys do. Really need to rewatch overhauls but I'm waiting for Odyssy of the Dragonborn to come out before I start a new playthrough. LOL, and I've clearly been playing with Royal Armory for too long when I forgot that Ulfric's Axe isn't a unique in Vanilla.
I enjoyed this video, it was very fair and open minded for both sides. And I appreciate that, regardless if you think the empire is right or wrong, the fact ulfric spirit made it to sovngarde, a place prepared for heroic nords says alot about his true character. Ill have to check out that video you mentioned. The one why you think the empire should win
Going to be fare, actually all it says that Ulfric died valiantly. Being honorable or good are not the main reasons why you go to Sovngarde. They can help for sure, but not main. Olaf One-Eye is a good example.
@@emilandersen8628He’s literally the best written character in Skyrim. He’s one of the only characters I see people actively and passionately love and hate. Most Skyrim characters are forgettable and people are indifferent to him. The fact that people actually argue over him is proof that he’s a compelling character.
Imagine if Ulfric just beat Torig up pretty badly and forced him to submit at blade point, sparing his life but ending the duel in victory. He could have called a Moot and maybe even become High King himself if he could convince the Jarls, or at least see a Jarl he respects become High King and trusts to negotiate with the Empire.
Or if Ulfric put aside his ambition to be High King himself and just asked King Torig to succeed from the Empire. The process would had likely been as peaceful as Hammerfell leaving, as the Empire didn't have forces to reconquer a united Skyrim.
That could’ve risked a series of revenge conflicts and claims to the throne that would’ve just muddied up everything and wasted lives. Look up war of the roses to see what I mean. I’m not sure how strongly valued a “claim” to the throne is politically/socially in Skyrim but if it’s even half way serious you don’t risk it by showing mercy. I’m not saying it’s right or that I agree with it but just trying to one of the potential reasons ulfric decided to kill him.
the lore doesn't make it clear whether it was traditionally a duel to the death or until first blood. I think that's intentional. knowing the ancient Nords, I would lean towards duel to the death. knowing the imperials, they likely banned duelling or made rules to make them as non-lethal as possible. Ulfric killed him during the duel, reviving an old Nord tradition, partially to prove a point, but according to the old ways, it was legal. the imperials would never accept it as being lawful though. that's where the debate starts. in that regard, if it was traditionally a duel to the death, Ulfric had an obligation to kill Torygg, and if Torygg didn't want to be killed, he shouldn't have accepted the duel. If he didn't realise it was a duel to the death, then that also kind of proves how the Nords of Solitute have forgotten old Nord customs. A lot of people criticise Ulfric for using a shout during the duel, but we must remember that although Nords shun magic, the old Nords did not shun magic, therefore it's safe to assume that casting magic in a duel was also legal. So it was a ruthless move on Ulfric's side but he proved so many points with his slaying of Torygg.
@@zekun4741 In addition, what most people seem to forget, or don't realize, part of the agreement of Skyrim's joining the Empire was Imperial gurantee that Skyrim would remain Autonomous. That is to say, they would rule themselves their way, but would tithe the Empire taxes, soldiers, etc. So the moment the Empire sent Imperial troops to 'punish the traitors' they violated their pact with Skyrim, the ancient agreement, and in doing so, have made justified Skyrim's bid for independence
Ulfric stood as a sole Tongue and a true son of Kyne against the legions of elves. He is a glimmer of what made Skyrim originally great. I would pray if he did become High King of a united Skyrim, we would see a restoration of all the old Nord ways under him.
If I were Ulfric I would establish Shor within the pantheon so that the Nine could be the Ten with Shor serving the role as the All Father of the Pantheon. Shor's corruption to Shezzar and then later made irrelevant was a severe mistake by Saint Alessia. Humanity basically won yet in order to corral the Elves to the Empire the Empire had to cuck itself by diminishing the importance of Shor because he is an enemy of the elves. I am done making concessions to those slaving knife ears. I am done with House Dres, the Thalmor, and any Thalmor apologists.
Being the sole Tongue is a source of shame. He learned the Thu'um from the Greybeards with the vow only to use the Shout to worship Kyne. Ulfric betrayed his oath, and he has used the Thu'um to murder his fellow Nords to further his own lust for power.
Hero. Telling Nords to not worship Talos is like telling Dunmer they can't worship the good Daedra or before that the tribunal. It's a deal breaker and wholly unacceptable.
But he needs to chill out when it comes to treating other races. His follower's attitude towards elven kind, khajit, and argonians isn't justified at the slightest. What, just because their kind is the same as the Thalmor's or """turned a blind eye""" when the Thalmors invaded Cyrodill do they deserve all the treatments the Stormcloacks give upon them?
@@Jonathan--- YOU need to chill bro! There’s like what one maybe two actual racists nords? They’re also the town drunks who’ve fallen on hard times after getting wounded in the war, in which NONE of the other races helped. Just man and maybe some orcs. Secondly, have you listened to the dark elves in Skyrim? They’re waaaaay more racist, plus for thousands years they enslaved pretty much everyone they could just because they could. Also Windhelm is an ancient city made of stone in the Arctic smashed between a river and a mountain. There’s only so much space to live. Atleast they have protection in the city or would you prefer to make them live in the woods with the bandits, vampires and spiders the size of a schoolbus? The khajiht are thieves, smugglers, assassins, and corrupt business owners. Not all but damn near most in Skyrim. Plus THEYRE CAT PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN JUNGLES AND DESERTS ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE CONTINENT! Their cultures don’t exactly parallel eachother. Also they’re pretty racist as well. Same with argonians. Racism is not ok but neither is denying the existence of the story’s other side.
@@The_Lone_Outlaw I count 3 or 4 racist nords, those 2 drunks in Windhelm, Torbjorn seems to have distain for Argonians yet has no problem with having a Dunmer run his office, whom has a similar distain ,the brother of the ex-stormclock general goods merchant in Falkreath, there are probably more, but wile they support the stormcloaks, they themselves aren't, and what people don't seem to understand is they don't want to kick every foreigner in Skyrim, they just want to remove all foreign influences from their government and rule their own provinces, I sympathise with the Reachmen and their plight as they are in a similar situation but the Forsworn take it too far by been crazed daedra worshippers who will kill anyone in their territory.
@@james739123 Ulfric is a racist, literally wrote a decree forcing the Argonians out of the city walls, forces the Dunmer into a slum, and is prejudiced against both. Doesn't care for them. He also states that in his mind, Skyrim is ''meant to be'' full of Nords who are ''mighty, powerful, and free''... Full of Nords... Stormcloak Commanders will commonly state how they will kick out the elves, Thongvor Silver-Blood blames all of elvenkind for the Talos ban, and two out of three Stormcloaks join on somewhat race-based reasons, be it disproval of elves or the belief of being a ''true Nord''.
Yeah but the legacy of Talos is the Empire, the Nords worship his empire and the unification of man. They don’t even worship their old Nordic pantheon anymore, they venerate an imperial god.
The logic of seceding assumes that by leaving the empire, the terms of the WGC no longer apply to Skyrim. Thus they can just remove the Thalmor. The legal basis for their presence disappears. But if information is to be believed, banning Talos is a critical step to the Thalmor’s plan. With Skyrim being the most prolific Talos worshipping Province in Tamriel, does anyone really believe the thalmor care about legality when it comes to that? There’s some interesting lore in the game to show that the concordat isn’t what enables the Thalmor to do what we see in Skyrim. • In Dragonborn, we see the Thalmor operating in Morrowind - not a signatory of the WGC - where we see them kidnapping and torturing people. • If Ulfric wins. The Thalmor presence in Skyrim doesn’t change. Meaning Ulfric is either unwilling, or FAR more likely unable to oust them. I think the WGC is just a convenient excuse. The Thalmor would be doing what they are regardless of any treaties.
I can tell this is going to be an awesome video. Me personally I lean more towards the Stormcloaks for a few reasons. 1. Ulfric is not some Thalmor sleeper agent like some people seem to imply. There is no Winter Soldier activation code for him to betray Skyrim. 2. The Thalmor are not as strong as everyone thinks the Redguards threw them off all by themselves. 3. The Empire is physically incapable of fighting the Thalmor as the treaty let's Thalmor police do whatever they want. Any county that let's foreign police do what they want has given up their sovereignty, sure you might think General Tulius can lead a new war against the Thalmor but if he tries to plan that he'll be taken away in the middle of the night never to be seen again. 4. Ulfric does have some problematic views but he isn't a super Nazi like some people imply or else you would see elf heads on spikes as you walk into Windhelm instead he let's a freaking Altmer run a stand in the middle of his market. That fight with the two drunks when entering Windhelm really colours peoples views of them but those are two drunks not soldiers and you later find out that, that dark elf has been hiring pirates to destroy East Empire shipping company ships. The only chance that the Empire has is the Emperor getting assassinated leading to the council picking a good replacement and that's a big if.
1. Ulfric might not be a Thalmor sleeper agent, but he is an unknowing pawn serving Thalmor interests. 2. The Thalmor have been using the time since the war ended to grow stronger, while the nations of men grow weaker as they fight one another. 3. The Thalmor patrols don't seem that invasive as far as police forces go. I mostly just kill them and assume their disappearance is blamed on bandits. 4. While not Nazi level of racism, Ulfric certainly has Jim Crow like policies for Windhelm with Dark Elves red lined into a slum, and with Argonians and Khajiit not even allowed into the city.
@@badluck5647 The dark elves are the single most racist group of people in the setting. I seriosuly don't care what happens to a group of people that call outlanders slurs and held slaves up until very recently. His policy is nowhere near "Jim Crow", the fact that Dark Elves are even allowed in an ancestral nordic city is amazing. They don't even help with the war effort yet they still complain they don't get the same treatment as the nords fighting and dying for freedom. Also the Imperials aren't NOT racist, listen to Tulius, he makes fun of Nord culture, religion, and people constantly.
He doesn't classify as a sleeper agent, but despite the Thalmor knowing he's not, he is used to the same devastating effect as one who knows he's a sleeper agent.
@@ReformedSauron This is a pointless argument. The Thalmor are literally just noting "hey the existence of a rebellion weakens the empire." Well duh, of course it does. I wish bethesda never added that dumb document because it's literally a surface level observation of the Thalmor's political situation. In the same document they make it clear that the Stormcloaks winning is not desriable to them.
@@fareflight2029 Your characterization of the Dark Elves is unfair as you attribute the worst features of a few Dunmer Houses to the entire race. While House Dres and Talvani are racist slavers, House Redoran were incredibly noble and House Hlaalu was increasingly cosmopolitan. Why should the Dark Elves fight for Stormcloaks' goal for Nordic Supremacy? Imperial rule would be more preferable as it much more accepting of multi races living together. Just look at how other races are treated in Solitude vs Windhelm. It weirdly ignorant to expect second-class citizens not to feel more grateful.
@@warlordofbritannia They get homes, and they themselves box themselves in the gray quarter, which the HIGH ELF that has a BUSINESS AND HOUSE in the main city says herself. But, being put in a Ghetto is a bit better than what the Dunmer did to the Argonian, which was *checks notes* ENSLAVE THEM.
@@rhazortrhazort3003 Wait, so the Dunmer doing slavery in the past justifies Ulfric treating both of them as third class citizens (at best)? By that logic, white people should be rounded up and put on pitiful reservations by Native Americans due to the enslavement of blacks. And nobody actually chooses the live in a ghetto, why would you take that High Elf's words at face value? I read that line as being self-promoting and typical Altmer casual racism towards other elves.
@@warlordofbritannia the dunmer of the Grey Quarter made the place a shithole of their own making. They were given a whole section of Windhelm to turn into their own and yet turned it into a ghetto by themselves. They have no way to whine about the state of the Grey Quarter they made for themselves. Oh boo hoo, Ambarys, Ulfric doesnt want to come down and fix your leaky roof, maybe learn how to do it yourself?
@@warlordofbritannia No, i mean that it's stupid to think that Stormcloaks are being specially racist against Dark elves when they don't live in terrible conditions and are treated like other foreigners are treated in any place in Tamriel. People think the event when entering Windhelm is the entire Stormcloak background.
If I got to be honest I can sympathize with the Stormcloaks Alfred Stormcloak is a very flawed man however he is not evil he is a hero he's one of the greatest heroes in Skyrim and he's well-respected leader
If anything, Ulfric is one of the most developed and complex in-game characters. Killing him with Imperial supporting characters always left a sour taste. The only thing I dislike is when fans mix real-world politics with game characters. Tamriel ≠ Earth. Anyway, I also don’t like to rant. Thanks for another great one Drewmora!
Never really thought about the real world stuff. Just how foolish he was for playing into those bloody high elf hands. It shows a bit of a ill Temper/easily tricked If you go after someone you consider a friend for years after the High elves gaslight you into thinking he does not care or knows you been capture and did not help. In a long term war It would make It easy to trick em into pulling out resources or falling for a clear trap out of pride.
@@Carzeyday how is he playing in the elvish hands? They could have demanded anything at the peace summit, if they wanted skyrim independent, they had said so and mede had accepted. They wanted talos to be outlawed, because gods are real in tes, and they are mighty. Weakening faith in talos is weakening talos, and they archived that. The rebellion is the worst thing that happened to the dominion. Any bloodshed between man, like stated in that dosier, are A both parties to blame for, because the empire could just accept skyrims independence without fight, and B irrelevant, for it took a few redguards with the gods favor to extinct all elves from hammerfell, 500 nords with the gods favors to bring the falmer close to extinction, a few slaves with the gods favor to topple the ayleids. The empire, spit on akatosh when they put a mortal on the throne that belongs to dragonborns, who therefore share blood with akatosh himself, and they spit on talos when they accepted the wgc. Ulfric has the voice of dragons and talos in his hearth. His "military strength" is irrelevant for when the gods want, he could fight alone and still beat the dominion.
Absolutely incredible video!!!! I loved the vibe of the elder scrolls growing up but could never focus enough to sit and read the lore books or listen to the npcs 😅😂 your videos have brought back not only the nostalgia but given me a deeper understanding of the world and a renewed passion for the series despite bethesdas less than favorable practices and recent failures. Keep up the great work! Much love brother
20:40 i just realized the irony of a man slaying a "puppet of the empire" only to later find out he's been a puppet of the Thalmor (empire) since before that 'battle'
I stand by the true High King Ulfric. It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees. Even if Skyrim can't win a war with the Elven Army it's better to die fighting.
The empire is actively building up a army to fight the elves that’s why tulius is so under equipped if the stormcloaks win that weakens the empire making a victory against the thalmor unlikely
@@SirEggo2412 And that army is going to be immediately destroyed or used to oppress the people in favour of the WGC, since the thalmor have completely infiltrated the empire. The empire is done for. Besides there's no point in liberating Tamriel from the thalmor only to have it enslaved by the empire again.
@@robbstark3316that’s pretty ironic given that Ulfric is trying to speed run humanity’s destruction or slavery lmao. He’s diverting vital resources that could be used to fight against the aldmeri dominion. He’s literally weakening their only chance of winning lmao.
The Thalmor see an Imperial victory as harmful. Ulfric is anything but a hero, since he's the reason why the Justiciars showed up and why Alduin returned.
@@dutchpatriot17 The thalmor see a stormcloak victory as harmful and no he is not, He is the one fighting the justiciars unlike the empire. And blaming him for Alduin is just absurd, He was sent forward with the scroll. He was going to come back at some point
@@Kirasupporter1 Incorrect, the Thalmor do not consider a Stormcloak victory as harmful. Only as something to also be avoided. Ulfric's actions at Markarth is literally the reason why the Justiciars were ever allowed in to enforce the Talos ban. Prior to that the ban was not enforced. Alduin would return when the conditions of the prophecy were met. Which came true thanks to Ulfric.
@@dutchpatriot17 Why would they want to avoid it if they didn't consider it harmful? That makes no sense. Why would the Thalmor want their people to be killed by stormcloaks? No the reason the Justiciars were allowed to enforce the ban is because the empire sanctioned it with a treaty. And, Alduin was going to return regardless, if you believe there is a prophecy then that it means it wad fated to happen, If it would have happened anyway you cannot blame ulfric
@@dutchpatriot17 Why would they want to avoid it if they didn't consider it harmful? That makes no sense. Why would the Thalmor want their people to be killed by stormcloaks? No the reason the Justiciars were allowed to enforce the ban is because the empire sanctioned it with a treaty. And, Alduin was going to return regardless, if you believe there is a prophecy then that it means it was fated to happen, If it would have happened anyway you cannot blame ulfric. In fact, your logic could be used to blame the empire for alduin too
Ulfric is definitely my favorite character in the entire game. He has so much complexity with many subtle motives and positive and negative aspects of his character. He feels like a flawed person, just like all of us. And because of this, it's truly a difficult choice to side with the Empire or the Stormcloaks. Personally I prefer the Stormcloaks because I really resonate with their ideals of freedom and independence, but both sides ultimately are working against the true evil, the Thalmor.
Drew love you homie keep the content coming even if your off on your own I’ll keep watching you like I’ve watched fudgemuppet every single day for years, I’ll keep that going here
Honestly minus a certain Dutch troll and a few ignorant fools the comments have been pretty decent for this topics standards. It seems that the imperial fans aren’t here in mass like normal so when/if they show up then shit will probably hit the fan then.
Nords have a "might makes right" philosophy. Therefore, in this context Ulfric is entirely justified. Furthermore, this is precisely the in-game philosophy of the Dragonborn, who is the ultimate difference-maker in the Civil War questline. The Wikipedia entry sums up this ancient real-world philosophy thusly: ["The idea of _"woe to the conquered"_ is vividly expressed in Homer, in the hawk parable from Hesiod's Works and Days, and in Livy, in which the equivalent Latin phrase _"vae victis"_ is first recorded. The idea, though not the wording, has been attributed to the History of the Peloponnesian War by the ancient historian Thucydides, who stated that _"right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."_ In the first chapter of Plato's Republic, Thrasymachus claims that _"justice is nothing else than the interest of the stronger",_ which Socrates then disputes. Callicles in Gorgias argues similarly that the strong should rule the weak, as a right owed to their superiority. The first commonly quoted use of "might makes right" in English was in 1846 by the American pacifist and abolitionist Adin Ballou (1803-1890), who wrote, _"But now, instead of discussion and argument, brute force rises up to the rescue of discomfited error, and crushes truth and right into the dust. 'Might makes right,' and hoary folly totters on in her mad career escorted by armies and navies."]_ This is all to say that Ulfric's motivations has some real juice to it. Although the in-game information on him doesn't suggest he has any self-awareness of being a pawn to the Thalmor, Nordic philosophy infers that he likely would be aware of this fact. But that doesn't matter to him. He knows his intentions are just, and whether or not he dies in the conflict, Sovngarde is still the big picture. Fighting and losing against insurmountable odds is the essence of the ultimate tragic hero in Nordic culture. Flawed? Yes. But that's what makes true heroes. They are bound to Fate, but their titanic willpower can move its threads.
I think the whole point went over your head and you're giving it all to much thought. All societies in tamriel have a might makes right mentality to a point but even in Skyrim there have been changes to that way of thought. The dragon born doesn't follow that philosophy either, the player might but the lore will be told that the hero will slay the world eater then beat the first dragon born then disappear. Our part in the civil war won't be remembered or won't even be brought up, Ulfric is set up to lose and his rebellion will just help change Skyrim for the better. Selfish leaders like him needed to be delt with since he wouldn't stop at Skyrim, he would want to spread out and conquer. He is a man of the old ways but the world can't let people like him remain, he is a relic and shall be used as a symbol of what not to be.
@@everettjohnson9374 Respectfully, I think _you're_ the one who's missed the point. The Dragonborn absolutely does follow that philosophy - it's the way of the Dragons, after all. Shouting is a verbal contest to defeat the other. Slaying the World-Eater is done by strength and might. Ulfric is "set up to lose" and is "selfish?" I get that you don't agree with this philosophy, but what you've said here indicates to me you don't fully grasp this philosophical principle. Not all races "follow might makes right mentality to a point." The Altmer as a whole certainly do not. The current Fourth Era Thalmor are actually an anomaly and complete deviation of Altmer cultural principles.
I think a lot of people misunderstand the concept of "might makes right". Might makes right is true, in the sense that at the end of the day, the strong will inevitably force their will on the weaker, there is no justice when you're powerless to bring justice. Therefore, when building a nation, you must always keep in mind that being capable of defending yourself is the only thing that's keeping you from injustice. That concept is not rejection of morality, it doesn't really say that anything the people in power do is morally acceptable, it's just a realistic view of how the world works. So, regarding Ulfric, if he subscribes to the might makes right concept, what that means is Skyrim needs to be ruled by the strong to not face injustice, and Torygg is a weak ruler.
@@zekun4741 Agreed. Good comment. Might makes right is certainly fair play for the Nords when they abide by the principles of _honor._ What does possessing honor mean for Ulfric? Well, if judging the standard by real Norse vikings, everything comes down to your reputation. Doesn't mean everyone has to see him in a fair light. Apparently, he has a large population of Nords who do think he is a reputable warrior. Acquiring _fame_ is the other part of the equation here. Fame grows honor, and thereby leverages his right by might. It's not about whether he's 'right' or 'wrong'. He's literally _making_ it just. Justice/injustice is on a scale, encompassed by the Nordic moral code of honor.
My problem is that he killed King Torygg in a traditional duel in a dishonorable way, notice how all of Skyrim doesn’t just leap into his arms after that. I’m sure in the traditional way Nords would shout eachother to death and hack away limbs against more equal opponents to display honor and valor, the truest sense of “might is right”. The culture of Skyrim has definitely shifted from the old ways, the Greybeards certainly don’t approve because Kyne gave them the voice to liberate mankind not oppress and kill political opponents. I think Ulfric pissed away his bargaining power, Torygg was sympathetic to his cause. Imagine an amicable split from the empire where instead Ulfric just mentors the young King instead, historically speaking some of the best leaders we’ve had were young. Torygg never had the chance to rule, the only detriment to his character was that he got married and loved his wife which was perceived as a weakness? Despite that when challenged he accepted knowing it was the death of him, he was brave when it counted. I think that had more to do with Ulfric wanting to be King than gaining independence and liberating his people.
Not to mention, about Torygg, he very clearly staunchly worshipped Talos, the god Ulfric Stormcloak is so adamant about worshipping freely. Ulfric's grievances were, and are, absolutely warranted, but I agree that his biggest error in judgment was challenging the High King in court, knowing he didn't stand a reasonable chance against him. Elisif asks you to take Torygg's War Horn to a secluded Shrine of Talos, just outside of Whiterun, not because she cares about Talos, but because _he did._ That piece of evidence gives a lot of weight in my mind to Sybille Stentor's supposition that, had Ulfric simply stood up and asked the now-High King Torygg (a position of authority, power, and the people's support) directly to declare independence, Torygg might have done it. We've come a long way since 11/11/2011 in this fandom, that I can say for sure, and I'm frankly very glad to do so. I remember how tribal people used to get over Stormcloaks and Imperials lol, and that was a time period PRECEDING the 2016-era political shift to an even nastier, even less nuanced paradigm hahaha, which really says a lot. I'm glad we can now just appreciate the sides as they are, without having to justify or ignore each side's demerits or merits depending on where we thought we'd fall if the conflict were real. Thanks as always, Drew.
Just curious, how do you feel about Paarthunax? I look at it like this, if uncle Adolf survived WW2 and became a man of peace would you love and support him? Nah. He's still a war criminal.
Nah Stormcloak victory would be better as they'd be more likely to get high rock (by extension also Orsinium) and Hammerfell alliances who's military prowess are both severely underrated.
He's kind of anti hero not villian for a villian , their cause is never righteous, but selfish. For an anti hero his cause is righteous but his methods are dubious, just like Ulfric
25:25 Wait, how is Ulfric a puppet of the Aldmeri Dominion? Did I miss somewhere in the video where he mentions Ulfric taking direct orders from the Elves? I feel like there is a difference between a man who is following his own goals and it just so happens that the stalemate is beneficial to the Aldmeri compared to him being a puppet/pawn in their pocket.
It all makes sense, however the Almeri failed to predict the Dragonborn is a wildcard that could choose any side of the conflict or as in my case as the player, I picked neither side and killed off all Aldmeri I could find. But surely this wont be canon :)
Historically, the character of Ulfric has always reminded me of the characters of Spartacus and Leonidas, that we as human beings are nothing but like beasts!! Without our customs, traditions and religions, while Talius reminded me of Julius Caesar and Achilles that to achieve anything there must be prosperity and the availability of security and justice, the option of killing them or one of them was not available in my hands at the time.
Over the years, the more I've thought about it, the more and more I side with Ulfric and the Stormcloaks. And that, despite how I used to argue ad nauseum on behalf of the Empire. I find it odd now, too, to side with the Empire at all in _Skyrim,_ considering the game itself starts with you as an innocent Imperial prisoner, being sent to the literal chopping block... without due process and despite you not being "on the list," by the way. "Forget the list! He goes to the block!" That's important. And after Alduin attacks, you're rescued not by Hadvar but by Ralof. Hadvar only tolerates you tagging along later because he's got bigger fish to fry, but Ralof willing put himself in harm's way to get you to safety! That speaks volumes to Ralof's character as a man. So, from the very beginning of the game, the Empire went out of its way to try to murder an innocent man or woman without cause, but the Stormcloaks went out of their way to help you. I'm convinced now that most of us who started out years ago siding with the Empire by default, at least those of us who played _Oblivion,_ most likely did so out of nostalgia for Uriel VII, Martin, and what the Empire used to be.
It's just saying that the Empire and the Emperor is failing. Like the avatar of Talos Wulf said in Morrowind: "The Emperor is getting old. Don't know how much longer he'll hang on. So is the whole Empire, for that matter. Getting old, that is. The Emperor and the legions have held the Empire together for hundreds of years. It's been a good thing, by and large. But maybe it's time for a change."
When i first played skyrim i sided with the empire too. But the empire died that day with martin. After my second or third playthrough i sided with the stormcloaks, first out of curiosity, but after hearing there side, hearing what the empire became, i first was saddened to see what they became, but by now they just disgust me. The dragonborn is the rightful emperor, no question in that. And that tulius, and all the other, don’t fall praying in front of you as soon as the greybeards call you ysmir just shows that they arent imperials. Just pretenders or larpers that soil the heritage and symbols of the empire.
@@georgemurdock7670 Delphine (and Esbern) can lick rust as well. Supposedly a Blade, she knows exactly who and what you are from having witnessed it first-hand. But then she and Esbern dare to order you around and cut you off from the Blades (excuse me, I thought the Dragonborn was their leige lord???) when you refuse to murder Paarthurnax for crimes he had long ago renounced, repented of, and repaid. Delphine and Esbern sucks, and if they weren't essential NPCs I would kill them myself every single playthrough. And because of them (especially Delphine), I now hate the Blades too and hope they go extinct with their long overdue deaths.
@@HickoryDickory86 idk, i like the blades cuz of oblivion still but Delphine is very shitty. The blades saved the world after all and i like the gear, and i kill phartunax for a lot of reasons anyways, never really thought about the blades tho. They should be your personal guards, and i guess they kinda are when you recruit followers into there ranks, but delphine gives the commandos and sends you around like a attack dog 🤔 But she says they are now dragon killer and no emperor protectors 🤷🏻♂️
I agree, but i have to imagine that a big part of Skyrim's opening was made deliberately to illicit this feeling of "damn, the Empire sucks nowadays, these Stormcloak guys are where it's at"
I like how the mod you have that changes Ulfric's goatee makes him look a LOT more like the celtic, specifically Gaulish chieftain, Vercingetorix, who rebelled against Rome (albeit, BEFORE they took over Gaul, modern-day France). Edit: Thanks for the ❤️, Drew!
The stormcloaks pretty much choose to die on their feet than live on their knees. Live free or die. You have to respect that. Not one single play through have I ever been able to join the imperials..
I will never play as an Imperial! Like Ulfric said "The empire I knew never surrendered!" And that's what Titus Mede II did when he signed that concordant.
Everything you've just said is exactly spot on the imperials live on their knees under the thalmor, as opposed to the stormcloaks who do not. Casually oppressing their own people for worshipping talos because the elves won't allow it 😂 The empire is like a drunk guy down a pub saying if I didn't hurt my knee I'd have been a pro player yknow ! Ulfric acts on his beliefs, the empire are too busy bowing to thalmor demands against their own people all while being wink wink nudge nudge don't worry we're all on the same team it's comical ! The empire are weak fools. Sacrificing their liberties and securities for a false sense of safety. First class fools.
@MEWJr90 they literally go along with everything the thalmor says and do what they're told yet you claim they're not living on their knees? 😂yeah OK.. The empire was weak and they would be the first to admit that And legate rikka says that infront of tulius and then has to make out she didn't say anything after he asks what was that 😂😂😂😂😂 The empire was pathetic, their tail tucked between their legs cowering behind the thalmor aldmeri dominion 😂
To me, Hammerfell proves that Ulfric's cause is the right one to support. The Empire had every advantage against the Thalmor and while they were exhausted, the Aldmeri Dominion were in far worse shape at the time of the Imperial surrender. The Imperials betrayed Skyrim and Hammerfell both, and Hammerfell proved that the Aldmeri couldn't even take over a province right next to them if it continued to show a solid resistance. Skyrim, much further away, has even better chances against the Thalmor than Hammerfell did as a result. The Imperials have fallen beyond disrepute; it is time for Skyrim to follow the Redgards into being a powerful and noble independent people against the Thalmor. There may come a time for a new empire to rise, but for now, the Thalmor will have a harder time against multiple independent provinces than they will against a single Imperial Empire.
I love Ulfric. He would be a great leader for the second war. It would be cool if in the next game his descendent was in charge of Skyrim and he helped hammerfell fight off the dominion on the second war.
I think the idea that Ulfric is just blindly playing into the Thalmor’s hand is silly. He must see the same thing as everyone, that the Dominion hopes to divide and conquer. But he also saw the Empire’s promises were worthless and that Hammerfell was able to hold. Ultimately it is a question of who you trust to keep Skyrim safe, the Empire or Ulfric. How much does the sanctioning of a Thalmor embassy devoted to hunting down your neighbors and loved ones bother you?
A lot. No sane person would ever support a government that allows foreign agents to persecute him and his people. Especially if it's a foreign government.
Hammerfel also received a lot of help from the Empire during the war, it’s not really fair to say they truly solo’d the dominion when General Decianus was in Hammerfel fighting them pretty much the whole time before he was called back to help retake the Imperial city. He also disbanded his Redguard legionnaires after the WGC (White Gold Concordat) so that they could go home and help win the war there. They should honestly be grateful they got any help whatsoever because as we all know, Lord Naarafin split off the the larger dominion army to attack Cyrodiil, the atrocities he committed were unlike anywhere else in the Great War. The Empire truly did the best they could, and while yes they signed the WGC and basically abandoned Hammerfel, they also made it possible for them to win overall. There are things to consider like how bad the attrition was in the Alik’r desert during the “trail of thirst”, sending battered Empire forces after the battle of Red Ring would’ve just been a liability and failure, letting the Redguards fight for their province was the only good option. There would’ve been no justicars in Skyrim if Ulfric wasn’t manipulated by his capture and sent off on a revenge spree. His proclamation to bring back Talos worship and murder of High King Torygg is what brought in the justicars, breaching the WGC is grounds for war and the Thalmor were banking on this happening to destabilize the Empire, talk to any loyalist nord of the Empire, they did not enforce the Talos ban. As Rikke put it “Nords lack subtlety” but had they stuck to the original plan to help build up the Empire, they would’ve got a sweeter revenge on the Thalmor, but no just a pointless Civil war.
@@sercravenmohead3631 Stop spreading lies. The only help Hammerfell received were a few "invalids" from a mere general disobeying his orders to abandon Hammerfell. The rest of the empire completely abandoned Hammerfell and sold out the entirety of humanity and Talos himself by signing the WGC. There's no mention that Lord Narifin's army was larger and since he was merely a distraction it's way more possible that it was smaller. There's also no mention of Decianus disbanding his legion nor of Redguards returning except for those "invalids". Ulfric and the Nords have every right to rebel against the WGC and the empire. The thalmor always operated within the empire before the WGC (Night Of Green Fire)due to the empire's incompetence, so your loyalists are wrong and now due to its cowardice it now legally allows the thalmor to do whatever they want and target countless of innocent people that the empire was supposed to protect. So get out of here with that bs, nobody is buying it and we've been over this already.
@@sercravenmohead3631one could argue that Skyrim is just as much a quagmire factory as Hammerfell, at least once winter hits. Ultimately, I think it is a dumb play to start the civil war, but it was Ulfric’s call to make. He was the one in a position to make a run at the throne, and much as the Empire can’t keep Skyrim, the Thalmor couldn’t either, so it is good real politik to make his run at being High King. My points were more related to what the “average soldier” who supports the stormcloaks would think….which is that Ulfric is a better bet at keeping Skyrim safe than the Empire.
It would be really interesting as canon to have Ulfric and the Stormcloaks win the civil war and then back TLD as a new emperor after the DB assassination of Titus Mede.
@@paulaccuardi9071 I'm not saying that he would join the Dark Brotherhood. But I'm pretty sure that Mede's assassination is going to be canon and I also seriously doubt that TLD is going to look a gift horse in mouth. He may not thank the DB directly for the favor, but I seriously doubt he's going to balk at the opportunity that they give him to take the Ruby Throne.
“No country has ever prospered that failed to put its own interests first. Both our friends and our enemies put their countries above ours and we, while being fair to them, must start doing the same. We will no longer surrender this country or its people to the false song of globalism. The nation-state remains the true foundation for happiness and harmony." - In terms of TES lore, this is exactly why I choose to side with Stormcloaks
He definitely seemed like a decent man and possibly(a huge stretch) a decent leader if he’d of gone ahead with becoming independent. It was a tragedy ulfric never game him that chance even though I can very much understand why, it was a tragedy nonetheless. Still support the stormcloaks 110% though.
I think Ulfric is a complicated, yet uncomplex man. He is a good tactician but not an experienced strategist. I like to play Skyrim as a Redguard sent to help Ulfric in winning the war. How this character helps doesn't matter. What matters is that a free Skyrim is more likely ally with Hammerfell (Or, hell, even just come to the table to talk). I like to play my character as a prisoner who was offered freedom in exchange for this mission (Maybe even a Daedra worshiper, if I want to have some fun). Lokir of Rorikstead was my unwitting guide into Skyrim, that's why he always says, "we don't belong here," cuz he didn't know. That's also why Ulfric was in Darkwater Crossing (the southern most part of Eastmarch). He was expecting an envoy from Hammerfell. The Dominion got wind, tipped off the Empire, and then starts the story of the Last Dragonborn.....
to be fair I feel like two beings who can shout (especially at least one who can apparently shout people into pieces) would make fantastic allies for Hammerfell... and they come with an army to boot.
I too try to imagine the back story for the character in Skyrim; for example one of the characters I created is an Imperial whose family and friends were Talos worshipers and inhabited southern Cyrodiil; his house of the protagonist was burned and family and friends killed by a reprisal of supporters of the Thalmor, remaining the only survivor he fled further and further north developing a hatred both towards the Dominion but also towards the emperor who did not lift a finger. Over the years he was trained in magic (he learned the magic of lightning, fire and a healing spell), as well as training in weapons (especially two-handed ones) from a Nord settled in Cyrodiil, who told him about the land of Skyrim . Seleuco (the character's name) travels to the land of the north but was unfortunately intercepted by an imperial patrol who arrested him and put him on the chariot together with Ulfric's rebels. Although Seleuco tried to explain that he had nothing against them, he was sentenced to be beheaded and therefore after fleeing from Alduin and then being welcomed by Ralof he began to take a liking to Ulfric's cause.
when ever i hear Midday sun, i think, "Waywhere to urches midday sun" Mysterim xarcsies. Glad youtube recomended this channel, i only watched Fudgemuppet for these videos
I think that Alvor, Harvar's Blacksmith Uncle in Riverrun, has some solid quotes overall regarding Ulfric and the Civil War "Of course. Skyrim has always been part of the Empire. That doesn't mean I support everything the Empire's been doing lately, but Nords have never been fair-weather friends." "It's from that treaty that ended the Great War, remember, when the Emperor was forced by the Thalmor to outlaw Talos worship. We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down. Dragging people off in the middle of the night... one of the main causes of this war, if you ask me." "People are rightly stirred up about the damn Thalmor being allowed to roam around arresting people, just for worshipping Talos. But was it worth tearing Skyrim apart, and maybe destroying the Empire? No, Ulfric will have a lot to answer for in the end. Nords have always supported the Empire, and the Empire has always been good for Skyrim.". *Oh, and just a Disclaimer, I'm no fan-boi of the Septim or Mede Empire, or even the Stormcloaks for that matter. I merely speak of this from the perspective of the Civil War argument in general. If the Empire gets it's @$$ handed to it, I could care less. I'm saying Ulfric's methods, as well as history, combined with his Endgame just ain't it, chief. I'm a Dominion fan, through and through. I don't like all the Thalmor methods either but, I stand with the sons and daughters of the Elven Et'Ada any day*
But also consider it was the empire promising ulfric free worship only to immediately imprison him once he had done their dirty work for them that lead to ulfric causing a big deal the empire may be good in some areas for skyrim but they also are fully willing to manipulate the Nords and them toss them aside for the sake of stabilising their already broken empire
Alvor definitely seems like an appeaser his philosophy is "If you're a good boy maybe they won't murder you." If the Redguards can fight them off the Nords certainly can.
@@placeholder2586 Oh of course, I don't disagree, that's absolutely true, I'm no lover of the Empire myself, rest assured. My point is that in the end, if he's gonna leave then at least do it for the long term, don't cause more of a mess than it already is. I made another comment in the main Thread, if you'd like to see my point more in depth.
@@placeholder2586 the empire did what it has to in order to remove the mad man from Markarth. The original promise was from the Jarl himself and Ulfric just had to make things worse by refusing to leave unless the imperials guaranteed it as well. The Imperials were in the right to arrest the man, it's only unfortunate they didn't just kill him then 🤷
@@klaykid117 The Redguards are far better warriors than the Nords. Nords aren't as hardy as their Atmoran Ancestors, and keep in mind that the Dominion still got the Redguards into a Stalemate after 5 years, and that was after the Dominion lost one of their Armies in Cyrodil after still decimating most of the Imperial Legions. So the Dominion fighting and holding their own in the Redguard's home Territory (Redguards also had help, keep in mind) is still impressive. And keep in mind that Ulfric wants to "take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion", meaning he's not gonna sit by and just wait for the next Great War to pop off, he's gonna go to them. He and half of the Stormcloaks won't make it to the Shoreline of Alinor, much less anywhere near their capital. The Summerset Isles is a BEAST to invade. Tiber Septim's own army didn't want to invade the 2nd Dominion cause they KNEW they'd get a bloodbath. The Numidium was essentially the only way. Even the Maormer failed 90% of the time with their invasions, and they're THE greates sea faring race of all Tamriel
I think it would depend a lot on a few things, mainly: if i was a Great War veteran or not, where i lived, what i did for a living Because reallistically some people wouldn't know about Ulfric's deeds, or care that much about an independent Skyrim with free Talos worship
@@Spike2276 i dos we your point there. Like if you were from the reach, and have witnessed the markarth incident, you might just be repulsed enough to fight for the empire or not fight at all. Also if you were from solitude and had the empire breathing down your neck and spreading propaganda, you might not hear about anything good about Ulfic. However, the opposite could be true if you lived in a very traditional aera such as Windhelm (not to mention Ulfic loving there himself). Now that I think about it, anyone who is not a Nord has no real reason to ever fight with Ulfic. They would either remain neutral or naturally side with the empire.
@@gabr.7878 even the Great War veteran thing isn't a sure shot either as we see with Rikke, because while some veterans may refuse to abandon a wronged brother, others may simply be too loyal to the ideals of the Empire And like i said, what i did for a living would matter a lot: if i'm a random farmer who has had crops requisitoned by imperial troops, or family abducted by Justiciars, then i'm going Ulfric all day every day Where if i'm a merchant who sees the prosperity that the Empire brings with it's southern trade, or if i've had lots of exposure to Imperial culture such as by spending time in Cyrodill, then i just might go Empire That's the beauty of the Skyrim civil war, everyone who fights in it has an understandable reason to do it
@@Spike2276 I agree with you on your last point. With all the crap I see people give to the writing of Skyrim, it is impossible to deny the masterpiece of writing that is the civil war. If only there was a little more attention given to the actual in game quests and less content was cut, it would be by far the best part of game
@n n In all honesty, I think every single side of this conflict left a mess and did wrong. The Thalmor of course waged war on everyone and repressed religious freedom, the empire abandoned Hammerfell and threw Skyrim under the bus, an Ulfric is in open rebellion and committed the Markarth incident. Everyone is guilty of something. It's all a cycle of violence
Great video, I agree on almost every point and I'm happy to see someone finally giving him a fair chance, instead of viewing him through a modern, Western political lense, from a moral high horse or just calling him stupid when impulsive would be the right word. I support the Stormcloaks, though not fanatically. Instead, I'd place myself closer to Jarl Dengeir, who acknowledges Ulfric's flaws while supporting his ideals. I wish that one day Skyrim and the Empire could make peace and turn their blades towards the Aldmeri Banner.
Imagine if world war 2 ended in a draw, in which Germany was allowed to to through every country looking for whoever they wanted and taking them prisoner. End it’s been going on for 30 years. That’s the equivalent of what the Nords see. Who people can say that he should have just waited, when it has been 30 years.
Ulfric literally collaborated with the Thalmor, which is the entire reason why the Thalmor were allowed to send in their Justiciars in the first place.
One thing a lot of people don't mention is that Ulfric's rebellion is not an actual rebellion, they don't want to take over the Empire, what they want to do is secede from the Empire. And it makes sense since the Imperials have become quite decadent and never miss a chance to insult the Nords. The Breton High Priest of Akatosh even wrote a book talking about how the Nords have misunderstood the nature of Akatosh and that Alduin was the same as Akatosh and his character was non-existent, a result of nonsensical, incorrectly passed on oral traditions by the Nords. Of course, the game makes it clear that the Nord oral traditions were right.
…that’s still a rebellion. Like, by definition waging war against the established order to form a new one is a rebellion. Otherwise you’d have to argue the 13 colonies didn’t actually rebel, or the Confederacy.
I just wish I could the throw the Thalmor dossier they have on him into his face and make him realize that they let him go in the first place and his entire crusade against the empire is playing right into their hands and is exactly what they wanted him to do. The strongest argument against the Stormcloak rebellion is right here in my inventory, and I can't even use it... Like, more power to ya if you want to worship Talos, but fighting your own allies against the Thalmor is literally the worst thing you can do.
@@Dudebruhthe420th giving Thalmor an exuse to enter Skyrim? Being one of the reasons Talos worshippers were hunted down? Starting Civil war and weakening both Skyrim and Empire? Being an asset to the Dominion (Elenwen words,not mine)? Don't get me wrong, Empire did plenty of shite, but so did Ulfric too.
@@Dudebruhthe420th and never did I called him a villain. Does not mean his actions were good. He judges the Empire for its sins. Fair it is to judge him for his.
"All hail to Ulfric! You are the High King! In your great honor we dance and we sing...but this land is ours and we'll see it wiped clean of the scourge that has sullied our hopes and our dreams."
Skyrim deserves independence from the Cyrodilic Empire, but not under Ulfric. He's too shortsighted, volatile, and polarizing to be High King. Elisef isn't suited to be High Queen either -- she was Torygg's trophy wife and her ineptitude for leadership shows in how her steward and thanes are actually running Haafingar. In my mind, the Last Dragonborn decides to just take the throne for him/herself because every other candidate is stupid, evil, or both.
You know I thought this too! And...I actually did some research into it. Theoretically, anyone can become a Thane or High King IF they can prove themselves as being worthy. Being dragonborn, possessing the Jagged Cron, AND slaying the World Eater? According to Nord Tradition thats more then enough for the DB to throw their hat in the High King ring.
This is why I choose stormcloaks. It frees them from imperial and thalmor slavery plus gives them Talos back to worship openly. Now ulfiric waits for the moot to become high king.. he becomes high king. Yuh then challenge him and spank him like ulfric spanked toryyg and now yuh are rightfully high king and Skyrim belongs to the nords!!
Though I choose the empire in the end I agree that's Skyrim- independent or not- probably deserves a better high king or queen than the two options. I'd be voting Balgruuf if there was a moot- just the right temperament and he is not incompetent.
I am of the opinion that the Dragonborn is the true heir to the Empire of Cyrodiil, and should be upon the throne and potentially re-light the dragonfires
An Empire that’s forced to break its promises cannot be trusted to rule over Skyrim. The most realistic outcome would be for the Dragonborn to negotiate a peaceful withdrawal of Imperial forces without further bloodshed, so that the Empire can reinforce its defenses in Cyrodiil.
In Helgen, I always liked to imagine that Thalmor woman, (I can’t spell her name), was genuinely begging General Tullius to reconsider what he was doing. Or at least, she was trying to do it in a way that didn’t seem like she was begging. And General Tullius, being who he was, actually stood up to her.
Flawed characters feel more real to me, honestly.
Real people are never perfect, everyone has their good traits and bad, everyone has their own ideas and goals and values. There will always be people who disagree over various topics and earnestly believe that someone else is wrong, it's just reality and that's why flawed character feel more real.
Flawed is one way to put it lol. The more you listen to his words, the more you learn the more you notice that he might straight up be the bad guy. Just viewed with the rose tinted glasses from the inside, his side of the story.
@@monhi64 I have never once thought that Ulfric was a horrible person. Horribly traumatized and wracked with grief after he was tortured for 4 years, manipulated into believing he gave up vital information, and then his father died while he was in prison.
@@back2thedrawingboard852that doesnt excuse blatant racism and general lack of concern for the wellbeing of skyrim though. At a minimum Ulfric is pitifully shortsighted and power hungry. Even if he gets rid of the Empire, he will not stand a chance against the Thalmor. The Thalmor are the real enemy, and by having his rebellion he is weakening the empire and playing right into the Thalmor’s hands.
@@ava4689 as soon as he wins the civil war, he immediately turns to the thalmor. He doesn't care about "getting back at the empire", or else he would be attacking them afterwards. He believes that the Empire is inept. Whether this is true or not, he believes it (I personally even believe that the Empire isn't bad). Also if you're going to talk about racism in the Elder Scrolls, you are going to be pointing fingers at literally everyone. Ulfric is progressive compared to the Thalmor, An-Xileel, and pretty much all of Morrowind.
"No one warrior can win a war."
Then you meet the dragonborn who has to win every battle on their own.
Dragon born is not just a warrior. Considering all the lore about dragonborns, they are practically demigods.
@@troller8680 not even practically, they flat out are lol. Esp the "soul" dragonborns over the "blood" dragonborns - a speculatory distinction but I would say the Alessia dragonborns and the Tiber Septim style dragonborns are different, the Septim ones having real dragon souls and therefore near divinity without any kind of augmentation. Our DB goes through so much canon augmentation its not funny, bro could probably hold an entire front against the dominion on his own lol. On dragonback, of course
The funniest is when you do you first imperial legion quest; "Go kill an entire bandit camp solo, if you can do that you can join"
Everyone else is just so useless they can't do anything themselves.
Mage's College can't even retrieve overdue library books.
Thieves' Guild can't break into a beekeeper's house.
Dark Brotherhood is led by a Nord.
Companions are FULL of Nords.
Windhelm is FULL of Nords and can't catch a serial killer despite him being super sloppy, leaving evidence in a vacant house easily discovered.
It's utterly pathetic.
*coughs in Lydia killing everything for the DB
One that should be mentioned what he says in Sovengarde if you kill him. He shows regret for not stopping the war to focus on stopping Alduin and feels somewhat responsible for what he believes is Alduins inevitable victory. And instead of showing hostility towards you he shows concern and tells you to not let Alduin find you.
And after Alduin is defeated, if you talk to him again he will still hold no grudge (although Galmar will) and will instead show gratitude for stopping Alduin.
I recommend anyone who hasn’t look at what Ulfric says in Sovengarde both before and after Alduin is stopped
I’ve heard what he has to say after I killed him but for the life of me I can never find him in the mist, also I never found galmar in there before or after killing alduin. Welp time to see if the wiki has the answers I seek
The ulfric we meet in Skyrim is nothing but broken core of what he used to Be. His mind was gone.
For what it’s worth, Legate Rikke shares similar regrets
@@buffsniperDamn those elves.
@@alpharius2omegaboogaloo384 SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORDS
Whether one supports the Stormcloaks or the Empire, the only thing I’m comfortably sure about is that Ulfric believes in his cause.
My history professor in college once said: "Soldiers win battles, Politicians win wars". If we study every instance of great leaders and conquerors from Alexander the Great to Genghis Khan, these men are both exceptional on the battlefield and great politicians in their own right. Ulfric is a legendary warrior and a great leader of men no doubt, but a politician, he is not. He uses violence and conflict to resolve issues and is unyielding in his cause, but he doesn't know how to comprise.
@@svenkrules9855
That’s a very interesting and good point.
I wonder however if exactly that makes Ulfric a fitting candidate for a country like Skyrim. An uncompromising warrior King. Just sounds very „nordic“.
@@Hawaiian_Pizza_EnjoyerCorrect me if I’m wrong, but I think that’s a point brought up on one of fudgemuppets video, the comparison of the stormcloaks and legion.
I always support Ulfric, because even if Skyrim separates from the Empire, they would still be strong allies against the Thalmor in the second war.
Also, Talos deserves to be in the pantheon of divines. Period. It was the blessing of Talos that allowed the Hero of Kvatch to defeat Umaril and save the world.
I personally don't support Ulfric because he's so headstrong and blind to the bigger picture. The Thalmor want the Stormcloaks and Imperials fighting so they'll be weakened for an Altmer takeover. The Imperials didn't call for a truce because they wanted to join the Thalmor, they just needed to lick their wounds and even though they agreed to the Elves terms the truce was never going to last. Ulfric however can't wait for the Imperials to regain their strength. He needs the fight to happen now or he'll die and bring every other strong Nord to death alongside himself. Ulfric is a good leader and a strong warrior but unfortunately he's a bad politician. Even if Skyrim was liberated it wouldn't prosper under his rule, he can only conquer. He's not even good at conquering either because he doesn't see the civil war for what it really is, a proxy for the second war with the Thalmor.
Sometimes there isn't really a true right or wrong answer. 😕
Except the Thalmor must be stopped.
Yeah, even the Altmer hates the Thalmor. I mean, who wouldn't?
If the Thalmor were to be stopped, then there would be a true right and wrong answer. If I had to pick the side with the best possible chance of doing that, I'd have to go with an entire Empire over a group of angry Nords with a thirst for elf blood.
@@cj1gaming102 the nords beat back the elves more than once and under the Dragonborn they could do so again. The empire is dying, theyve lost territory after territory and even keeping skyrim would be a bandaid solution at best, plus the nords already sent the empire their warriors and the empire squandered them. Better to leave it to die and build a strong skyrim that could stand up to the altmer than die a slow death with them.
@SirDonut There's no Empire if Skyrim is out. Hammerfell will never forgive Cyrodil. They need a free Skyrim to approach the Redguards with a new alliance. Not occupation, but three free human nations working together.
@@cj1gaming102 ysgramor and his 500 companions.
What I love about the Stormcloak and Empire debate is the Thalmor said they don't want EITHER to get a victory.
That's because even if weakened they are worse off. Apparently they only got as far as they did in the first war thanks to a Daedra artifact allowing them to literally spy on their enemies at all the time, which they lost. Even still, their losses are of a greater impact then the Empire.
I agree I feel like that was intentionally placed in the game to tell the player as long as you end the war, you are doing your part. But I feel like people overlook it. The truth is that if the empire is driven out of Skyrim it’s not a devastating loss, they’ll simply just stop putting resources into Skyrim. This allows the stormcloaks and the empire to strengthen over time. And as long as the empire acknowledges Skyrim as independent, the two factions would likely work together again.
the Stormcloaks winning would be the biggest "oh shit" moment for the Thalmor and if those scumbags wanna stay alive, running outta Skyrim would be the only way. Thalmor staying in a Stormcloak ruled Skyrim might as well be into being killed
@@GenericUsername-qp1ww right mind you my character is half dark elf half redguard (roleplay reasons) on one hand the stormcloaks are just ignorant on the races of elves and think all elves follow the same doctrine as the Altmer, and when you go into the New Gnisis Cornerclub there’s imperial armor with an OFFICER helmet meaning the dark elf that owns it has BEEN in the legion so i can see an argument made either way there, but as for my redguard half they ran off the dominion, not to mention I’m a Dragonborn once the war is over with I just walk to the embassy and use the storm call shout 🙄🙄 they seemed easy enough to take down to me 🤣🤣🤣 not to mention i can call a dragon in AND summon one from the Soul Cairn
@@Crispy3031 "on one hand the stormcloaks are just ignorant on the races of elves and think all elves follow the same doctrine as the Altmer"
yet there are 4 Altmer who live in and around Windhelm, Nurelion, Niranye and the 2 who work in the stables and the woman when she complains, its not about the nords or Stormcloaks, its about horses. If Ulfric and the Stormcloaks in genral were racist towards elves then there is no way in hell theyd be allowed anywhere near Windhelm. Also not to mention the general goods vendor in Falkreath who isnt racist yet was a Stormcloak and clearly doesnt approve of his non-Stormcloak brothers racism
the dunmer of the Grey Quarter should be grateful they were allowed in the city at all, and all the whining from the bartender Ambarys 100% sounds like the kind of person who would be on twitter/X all day long whining about "them big mean nords"
Even though we've heard this story a dozen times or more, Drew's narration still manages to make it as captivating as if we're hearing it for the first. Another spectacular video!
Does it? I need logic when discussing lore, not theatrics. I can't glean much out of these videos other than someone trying to ham it up without saying much.
@@CodeguruX he's literally using in game quotes and factoring in different sides of the same events to help us form our own conclusion i think you just aren't listening well enough
It was General Jonna who lead the Skyrim armies. ulftic was a minor character at best. I'm not even sure he was ever even mentioned.
pull his dick out ov your mouth... i cant hear you mumble
@CodeguruX Same man I want old drew back, waaay to much flavour text added to the point its word salad soup. Just gimme the damn lore!
It clear that the Skyrim Civil War was designed to Morally Grey, and in my opinion they did it too well
Too bad so many fans can't recognize the Moral Greyness.
Picking a side is supposed to be a moral delima due to the flaws on both sides. However, many fans are too dim to recognize the racists undertones of the Stormcloaks' Ultranationalism or too clueless to see the issue with the Empire's persecution of Nordic religious beliefs.
@@back2thedrawingboard852 I joined Stormcloaks because I owe Ralof a favor.
FOR RALOF! oh and dont forget the greymanes they deserved better than having thorald taken to the thalmor.
I initially chose the Empire for the realistic goal of actually killing the Aldmeri Dominion and that I generally play as an Imperial or Redguard.
Now I mostly just don't pick a side. The main quest is HEAVILY enhanced by the negotiation discussion.
Way too well. On one hand I feel siding with the empire is the proper move. Long term at least. But how can you not look at what the empire did and be infuriated. Such a good quest line when you really think about it.
Man, Sybille Stentor insight on the Civil War, Ulfric and the Empire, is too good.
She would have a better steward then Fire-Beard.
@@Azraelseraphim Steward would've been too much of a "Face" position, something she does not really want, given her, huh, un-life situation. As a Court Wizard she can get way with her shenanigans with the excuse of just doing wizard bussiness.
Yeah I’ve put in in literal thousands of hours since day one and have NEVER heard her thoughts on that.
That’s the beauty of Skyrim and devoted developers right there.
She's kinda like a demi-god of Solitude with here being a vampire. She has the life spand and the knowledge to consider decisions long after the deaths of the people who made them.
Stentor also seems distrustful of the elvish as well considering how she speaks of Erinier
@@FourScore460 I would imagine Stentor's distrust of elves stems from her own half breed status (Bretons being manmer) and her people's enslavement by the Direnni.
I always had a different interpretation of Ulfric talking about 'fighting so all the fighting we've done isn't for nothing'.
He is absolutely WRACKED with guilt. He fought in the Great War, and spilled a LOT of blood. But his side lost. He came home, and went to Markarth, and killed countless Forsworn, whether or not what happened after was under his orders. He believes, according to the Thalmor Dossier, that information he let slip was critical for Imperial defeat. Ulfric was trained in the Way of the Voice, the way of Jurgen Windcaller, a man who said to never raise the voice in battle, but only for worship - he betrayed that philosophy in order to go and fight in a war that he lost, that he believes he played no small part in losing, and that cost him being by his father's side when he died.
Ulfric blames himself. He NEEDS to win independence for Skyrim. He needs to have a single victory that he feels he can point to and say he genuinely got the result he wanted. He needs people to see him as a great leader, because he feels like they can never know the truth: that he himself feels like a failure.
He needs to fight, because otherwise all the fighting he's done - the lives he's ended, the family he missed and likely now will never have, the ancient Nord philosophy he betrayed - has been for nothing. So there can be no justification to himself for all the evils he feels he's committed.
He only killed elves and reachmen, nothing to feel guilty about. One a aliens made by a god that wanted to destroy the world the others are basically goblins.
He may feel that he needs to do it, but that could still just be argued to be his own twisted perspective, especially since what he wants-for Skyrim to be free of the Aldmeri Dominion-is what the Empire wants too, it's just that Ulfric doesn't realize that. The Stormcloaks propagandize that the Empire doesn't care about Skyrim or Talos, but that rhetoric is mostly just them being in an echo chamber. And as for Ulfric, he doesn't want to do long-term planning, he wants to take care of injustices immediately.
Even the game manual states this about him:
_...he is a great warrior and a natural-born leader, but lacks the cool head of a strategist._
@@georgemurdock7670 That moment when Stormcloak supporters in real life are more racist than Stormcloaks in game.
@@fyraltari1889 yeah cuz they are right about a lot of things. Im more of a dunmer player myself, you want to hear my take on argonians?
@@georgemurdock7670 Do I want to hear the take on Argonians of a guy who argues that three (fictionnal, so there's that at least) ethnic groups have no right to life and uses a picture of Legate Lanius as a profile picture?
No, no I do not.
Personally Ulfric and Tullius might just be the best written characters in the entire game.
I like the idea that he had given up to a degree in Helgen. When they were ambushed he is said to have surrendered somewhat early. While each side has its own interpretation, I'm inclined to believe Ralaf when he says Ulfric surrendered to save his men. He of all people would know what a losing battle looks like, and it's entirely within his character to prioritize his people at this point in his life. That being said, I also believe he was affected more than the game would let on by the realization that Elenwen of all people was there. His captor, his torturer. Speaking with the General sent to end his rebellion about, Talos knows what. The response he would have had to that sight could have been anywhere from blinding hot rage, to abject horror. To top it off, the entire reason he surrendered was made pointless when the Empire decides to execute all captives in a surprisingly brutal shift from what would be considered war etiquette. In a world with Stendarr, executing prisoners of war is generally frowned upon. Even in something like a civil war, I doubt there would be as much of that. Enraged, saddened, terrorized. Any number of intense emotions were probably going through him in that moment. First to the block, a comrade. Someone who followed HIM into this. *thud* next (if you pick a nord) a fellow countryman, dragged into this simply for being nearby.... Then the Dragon. This served as the wake up call he needed. When Alduin slams into the tower, and Ulfric sees him in full glory he's almost awestruck. However, then the dragon spoke... Shouted!? Having some knowledge of the Thu'um, he may have understood the phrase and had some idea what was about to happen. At the very least he'd have recognized a shout immediately. He snaps out of whatever state he was in and rushes to the nearest tower, ushering his men in with him. He takes control and keeps calm, but underneath I believe he was barely holding it together. Still he pushes through and the experience serves to reinvigorate his belief. Helgen was as much the beginning of the game for Ulfric, as it was for your own character.
To summarize, Ulfric hit what he thought was rock bottom in that cart. He sees his abusive ex talking to his new boo and falls apart. He realizes he just walked his men into a literal death sentence. It's a bird! it's a cliffracer! It's... Alduin!? Dragon takes o er the priority list for the moment. Snap back to reality. Escape from the city. Reignited flames of passion for Ellywelly and the Tully Boy.
Wonder if Ulfric realized or ever even suspected that the Thalmor were trying to take him not to torture (or at least not just to torture) but so they could engineer his 'escape' to keep the civil war going and the Empire weak...
@@JaceMorley if he would have thought that he likely would have "joined" the empire and ended the rebellion there refusing to be a pawn in elf deceptions. Not without demanding major concessions of course. Perhaps demanding tullius secede skyrim in its entirety while pledging to aid the empire when the time is right against the thalmor.
At his best with unusual cunning the civil war might "continue" by moving the hot spot to Markarth. Ulfrich would "convince" the Falkreith jarl to follow him while letting the empire secretly continue buying the jarl's loyalty and set the new front line there. The "war" would continue as a stalemate in the mountains while both sides root out the remaing reachmen and attribute casualties to the other side, letting them minimize losses, build up reserves, and fully complete the pacification of the area to further assist solidifying skyrim all while thalmor think they still have both sides in their pocket.
Of course this is Ulfrich we're talking about, he'd go his own way, start crap with the thalmor and bring in more dominion people to do what the empire couldn't. Still at night buy the empire time it need to rebuild.
@Motley I don't think so. If you read the dossiers, the thalmor wanted to break him out but they didn't know how they were gonna do it at Helgen. When the dragon shows up, ulfric escapes on his own. And I quote "Operational Notes:
Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed." (Thalmor Dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak)
Don't forget Rikke. She's kinda the true face of the Nords who support the opposing ideals to Ulfric.
Very well said. I enjoyed reading your comment
11 years after release and still comin up with lore.
what a champ.
There is a good chance that even if Skyrim becomes independent high rock will also follow suite. But all of them such as Hammerfell, Skyrim, High Rock, and Cyrodill will band together like the All Flags Navy thousands of years ago as an alliance of men to preserve their species. We don’t fully need an empire controlling everything all the time.
Best outcome in my opinion. Stormcloaks are the right side to join.
@@galacticknight55544 Men are not good or bad, they're just men.
@@ashwhiteforest9078 Stromcloaks are the better side to join.
@@galacticknight55544 They really aren't.
Their corse is admirable.
How they fill it is bad, delusional and the surest way of getting controlled by the Elves only a few years after.
I basically support ever independece movement in the world because I strongly believe in self determination over "keep together what already is".
But thinking about it for more than 2 seconds in the grand scheme of things?
Rather support the Empire so Skyrim has a REAL chance of getting independent down the line.
The stormcloaks are also legit too stupid to understand the concept of getting your ass kicked (them included) and signing a treaty under duress.
@@GermanPlayNetwork You underestimate them. Skyrim has many natural defenses like mountains, a sea filled with icebergs, and extreme cold. It also has a lot of potential allies available including Hammerfell, which was able to hold out against the Thalmor all on its own. Skyrim isn't going to be fighting the Dominion by itself. It's going to ally with as many human kingdoms as possible.
I feel like the answer is in between. Ulfric is a Gullible and Hard Headed man who's standing up for what he believes is right, which in a way his cause is noble. However, he is blind to the destruction that he causes, and how he's wedging the Empires plan to invade the Aldmeri Dominion themselves. Despite this, he still intends to help the Empire fight the Elves if he wins, so ultimately it comes down to whether or not you dislike the Empire.
The empire wont invade the dominion, they wont even attack them. If they wanted victory they could have archived it long ago. Right after the peace treaty, when the elves turned there backs away from cyrodiil towards hammerfell, they could had acted and attacked the elves from behind and off guard. When the elves retreated after accepting the peace with hammerfell, they could have attacked the remaining dominion forces in there country and remove there presence from cyrodiil, forcing them to bring there war tired and decimated main force back again. When ulfric declared independence, there was nothing that stopped them from just accepting skyrims independence, so that he rebuild skyrim without elven supervision.
The medes, are illegitimate and don’t care for the empire, or men in general, at least way way less then for there own power and riches. Mede surrendered the empire when his live was at risk, even tho Hammerfell stood alone against the dominion and succeeded. The empire, if they hadn’t capitulated in order to save the emperors head, would had demolished the dominion over time. Now the medes know in a war that the dominion could reach them, that a war might means there deaths, and they didn’t risked there lives for the empire in the past, they wont do so in the future.
They rather send there best generals to fight there own, people that always stood true to the empire, whos ancestors helped build it, who gave the imperials there freedom, who helped raise the flag of akatosh, that only through there blood was created out of nothing, over tamriel so many times. All while dining with heads of the dominion, allowing e*ves within the city wall like they are actual people and not the representation of evil on nirn.
The "we will attack the dominion" is a thing the emperor tells his generals so they can sleep tight, and not overthrow him from his so beloved throne. Because if they really would have want war, they would have attacked already.
There is no more Empire-the great war saw to that, and while they may carry on the name its just Cyrodilic bureaucracy grasping at the waning straws of former glory. Hammerfell is gone, Hlaalu is gone, Skyrim is in open rebellion. The former territories govern themselves best, not some corrupt hapless burecracy clinging to the vestiges of former glory.
The biggest flaw of Ulfric's is one he is not actually aware of. The Dominion has been shadowing and allowing Ulfric victories and political power as a pawn in a greater game. He is the perfect stooge and political figure to break Skyrim in two unwittingly.
I believe their presence in Helgen at the start was no accident, and I'm sure they would have stayed Ulfric's execution at the last minute to _interrogate_ him, then conveniently allow him escape. But, Alduin showed up and the rest is history.
I'm sure if Ulfric knew the greater scheme going on, he'd probably be more of an ally to the Empire (which would be a backfire scenario to the Dominion). The Dominion fears the Empire and its resurgence, so they have to create petty warlords and manufacture civil unrest to distract and divide without coming off as an active and open enemy (though, Tulius and others are somewhat suspect and wise to their schemes).
They tried in Hammerfell and vastly underestimated the Redguard's resolve, so they continue to probe and weaken the states around Cyrodiil to foment a total and decisive victory through governmental collapse versus a grinding and brutal Second War (they almost lost the last one, save that Titus Mede did not bother to counter-attack Alinor).
Empire as we know it in Skyrim can't oppose the Dominion. It is disoriented, broken and ultimately headless - it is done for. I can see scenarios of an all new human empire rising from the ashes of the Medes' one, but it won't be a peaceful reformation, it will be forged in revolution and wars yet again.
@@the36lessons11 The civil war prolonged is what the Thalmor want, with Ulfric dead it would likely of lead to a swift victory by the Empire, however in the same document where they say they don't want an imperial victory to happen, they also say Stormcloak victory is to be avoided too, whichever side you choose ultimately leads to a swift victory anyway.
Ulfric as a character is just so well written and his reasonings for hating the Empire go far further than most people care to look into. Giving up his childhood training as a Grey Beard to go and fight for the Empire, getting captured and tortured into revealing information that ultimately didn't add to anything but being made to believe it did, retaking Markarth in exchange for free Talos worship in the city and then being handed over to the Elves instantly afterwards and being imprisoned for 25 YEARS. His hatred for the Empire is entirely justified for what they did to him, he loved the Empire at one time in his life and they betrayed him, not just by forsaking their own founder and banning worship of him but also for being handed over to the Elves in the blink of an eye. The Empire allows their own citizens to be taken and tortured by the Elves for worshipping Talos.....they forsake their own founder, and they kill their fellow man for wanting to be free. They'd rather waste men and resources fighting the Stormcloaks rather than granting Skyrim its freedom and fighting alongside them against the Elves. I respect the Stormcloaks for breaking away from a dying Empire that's been a slave to the Elves for over 30 years, its better to die free than to be a slave. Ulfric has a good ending in BOTH civil war quest lines, "The Empire I remember never surrendered" and whenever Rikke and Tulius confront him in Windhelm Rikke tells him that "Skyrim doesn't belong to him", and like the true patriot he is responds "no but I belong to her" then goes to Sovngarde after being killed. I really hope the new game doesn't screw him over because he is one of the best characters in the Elder Scrolls universe.
I like how you ignored Ulfric's collaboration with the Thalmor which is what caused the entire Talos ban to get enforced to begin with...
@@dutchpatriot17 If you truly believe Ulfric collaborated with the Thalmor to help them win the great war you may might be one of the stupidest people I've ever met, have you ever played Skyrim? Why would he be fighting this war if he was collaborating with the Thalmor or had collaborated with them in the past? It boggles my mind because I think most people don't even listen to anything Ulfric says in game because they just sit there and put lines of dialogue in his mouth that he never says or they read the the journal in the Thalmor embassy and think it means he's a spy. You do know Ulfric is a character you can actively interact with and watch what he does and says right? If Ulfric is a spy for the Thalmor then his words and actions for the ENTIRE game make no sense, all of his patriotic speeches are just an act? He's secretly in bed with the Aldmeri Dominion? Your train of thinking here makes no sense at all.
@@noadmre7493 Who says anything about the Great War?
Ulfric established direct and cooperative contact with the Thalmor after the Great War had concluded, and he then started proving his worth as an asset to them.
Remember how after the Great War Talos worship was officially outlawed? Fun fact, it wasn't enforced. As Alvor states, people didn't pay much attention to the ban when he was a boy, everyone still had their shrines to Talos. It wasn't until Ulfric and his Stormcloaks started agitating about the "ban" that the Emperor was forced to crack down and allow the Justiciars in.
And when was that? At the Markarth Incident. Where Ulfric demanded "free Talos worship" in exchange for liberating the Reach. Where Ulfric demanded the Empire openly break the terms of the Concordat in order to regain control of Markarth. The Empire agreed, tried to keep quiet about the deal, but alas. Ulfric, through his direct contact with the Thalmor, made the Thalmor aware of what happened.
Of course, Ulfric did not count on being played by the Thalmor. Which is why when the Thalmor showed up and demanded his arrest, it resulted in Ulfric's status as a Thalmor asset turning "dormant" and him becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.
As for why Ulfric is fighting this war? For power. For the throne. Everything else is a smokescreen. He never tried the diplomatic route with Torygg, despite Torygg venerating Talos, and he had no qualms literally blackmailing someone for venerating Talos either.
Ulfric's past collaborations with the Thalmor is a fact.
@@noadmre7493 don't listen to that imperial cock sucker, he lies countless times on things related to the lore, deliberately ignores actual proof that the Stormcloaks are right, and spins it into imperial propaganda that paints the stormcloaks in a negative light whenever he does acknowledges it.
It’s specifically stated the thalmor didn’t start kidnapping people till after ulfric rebelled also that very founder says in morrowind he more or less doesn’t care about the empire anymore and given tiber septim who makes up part of talos was a evil person it’s debatable if worshipping him is correct
I wonder what Elenwen did to him? Must’ve been something very bad judging from his reaction to seeing her at the peace talks at High Hrothgar in Season Unending. Maybe something more than conventional torture happened behind closed doors. There is also cut dialogue with Elenwen trying to demand Tullius release Ulfric over to her custody in Helgen I recall. There’s also an amulet of Talos in Elenwen’s safe in her bedroom, maybe that was Ulfric’s?
I believe in Ulfric's cause but I'm not very sure about him personally. He thinks that his challenge of Torygg proves his right to rule but Torygg accepted the challenge knowing that death was inevitable. At that point who is actually stronger in spirit. Using the Thu'um to do the deed was his mistake. If he had given inexperienced Torygg at least a little time to train, had not used the Shout to kill him, and had showed mercy to Torygg in the end would probably done more to advance his cause than just killing him would have.
True..
I think that's the most glaring evidence that ulfric is a fool (and arguably a liar.)
He had the opportunity to resolve his political issue through political means, but instead chose murder (which is 100% accurate - if i challenge you to a duel with swords, then pull out a derringer and shoot you in the heart, that's murder) and the consequent war.
The nord's bled for Ulfric's pride, not for skyrim nor freedom.
@@iwantsomecookies08 Ulfric chose to resolve matters according to ancient Nord tradition. To call Ulfric's challenge "murder" is to ignore the Nord culture that precedes and will live on after the event.
How long would it have taken for Torygg to grow strong enough to match Ulfric?
Would Torygg even be capable of it?
Would it be honorable to use a potentially impressionable Torygg as a puppet to rule a free Skyrim?
And could Skyrim stand until a strong enough High King rose to the throne?
Too many people think Ulfric a brash man who doesn't think his actions through because of the duel with Torygg, but he won that duel before it ever started and he knew it
He knew that if Torygg turned down the duel then his point would be undeniable: the Imperial backed rule was cowardly
But if Torygg accepted he knew that he would prove that Skyrim was being ruled by a fledgeling boy unable to match his Jarls or his people
I don't think he went the best way about it, but his plan was perfect because it was a guaranteed win while also being ancient tradition which showed his respect for the old ways
@@Spike2276 It doesn't matter whether he could actually get enough experience to succeed. Ulfric giving him any time at all would have improved his position. In a world where the actions of the gods are visible every day, it is theoretically possible that he could have been aided by one or more gods.
And even if Ulfric's winning the challenge was a foregone conclusion where is the honor in that. Knowing that you can crush an insect does not bring honor to doing it. Crushing a dragon now... that is honor.
Have been loving every single video on this channel, and this is yet another great one! Thanks for the great work!
During the execution, some Thalmor agents were present, probably to save him, if we go by the dossier. What is there to say about the Empire, that would have allowed the Thalmor to take Ulfric into custody, then let him escape AGAIN which would have prolonged the chaos that brought the weakening of the Empire itself? That to me, tells me that the Empire doesn’t have what it takes in the first place. Now, if the Empire + liberated Skyrim + various alliances, such as the Redguards detesting the Thalmors too, remains to be seen, but at worst, they’ll die as free people, which is better than dying as slaves.
Tullius literally told Elenwen and her Thalmor to piss off and went on with the execution anyway, lol... But you are right in saying that the Thalmor did try to save Ulfric's skin.
@@dutchpatriot17 It's even why the player character is getting thrown on the chopping block despite the circumstances. Tullius needs Ulfric executed fast before the Thalmor can manage to get him out of there, and that means skipping over pretty much all the normal due process in order to manage it.
As someone who chose the side of the Imperial 🟥 Legion 🐉, Danielson Eastman does feel remorse... What in the world was he thinking?... Perhaps he should've chose the Stormcloak 🟦 Rebellion 🐻... He really is feeling remorse even right now... But he does maintain that peace is the only option... By the way, I am the creator of the character Danielson Eastman...
I came faster than Ulfric plowing Elenwen in High Hrothgar
My brother in Talos what thy fucketh
@@ajackass5950 Deep Lore
Careless Thu’um
Bruh...
@@maxd234Ive heard of this but where the heck does it come from
Thalmor: "Is the future of your empire not worth a single human right?"
Ulfric: "You'll never stop at one, I'll take you all on!"
Cringe
@@realtalunkarku Cringe is to ban your own ancestor god, Pelinal rolling in his chim right now.
If the red guards can defeat the High Elves surely the Nords of Skyrim can
Hammerfell and Skyrim vs Summerset, a battle of the ages, both terrible and glorious, Elder Scrolls 6 couldn't come out sooner so we could find the canon results of the war
tbf, from what I recall the war between hammerfell and the thalmor is immediately after the great war. So its not exactly a fair fight.
the thalmor would be fighting a weakened skyrim with their full strength (likely even greater than the first great war).
theres a reason the thalmor wanted to keep ulfric alive, he is their greatest champion in skyrim
We don't know the exact logistics of that conflict. We don't know the exact size of the army fighting in Hammerfell. What we do know is that the Red Guards didn't flat out beat the Thalmor.
@@Luxia-f1e that's totally wrong. The Dominion is definetly not recovered. Remember that the elves, long-living as they are, breed very slowly too. To the contrary, Hammerfell too was pretty devastated from the Great War.
Hammerfell is a hostile land, that's really what stopped the Thalmor from taking over. If the land had the topography of Cyrodil, the Redguards would have fallen
Nepos the Nose addresses how there are prisoners and other survivors after Ulfric's mass executions:
*Nepos the Nose* _"Then Ulfric and his men came. Those of us who didn't run were executed, except for myself, my king, and a handful of others."_
Before anyone accuses Nepos of lying, Nepos has no reason to lie to the Dragonborn as Nepos expects the hero to be dead in the immediate future.
*Dragonborn* _"Why are you telling me all this?"_
*Nepos the Nose* _"My dear boy, what makes you think you're getting out of here alive? You were seen coming in. The girl at the door is a Forsworn agent masquerading as a maid. You aren't the first one to have gotten this far. You won't be the last."_
Markarth Incident and Bear of Markarth cite war crimes on both sides...but Forsworn Braig says the Jarl had the executions, not Ulfric.....Could Nose be wrong without lying?
Not sure I feel any sympathy for Forsworn..
@@Ironislander4302 The Reachmen were peacefully ruling themselves while seeking to be an Imperial province like Orsinium. The Nords responded by indiscriminately massacring and torturing the loyal inhabitants. It is no wonder why they became radicalized.
@@badluck5647 You could make the same argument for Ulfric and his men, given how the Empire abandons it's provinces to the Thalmor. Wait so are you saying its evil for the Nords to want freedom from the Empire, but the hagraven worshippers ruling the Reach would be "peaceful"?
Peace is the last thing that comes to mind when I cleanse the land of one of their (literally) blood soaked camps.
@@badluck5647 Additionally, unlike the Orcs they didn't peaceably inhabit Markarth, they invaded from the hillside when the Empire abandoned Skyrim to save the capital. Plus given how we've seen the Reachmen deal with the few prisoners they take I think it would be silly to assume they'd sack a Nord occupied with anything less than savagery
Skyrim/ES lore is so rich and detailed, but it can be hard to put all of it together. I appreciate these videos that create a story of all the bits and pieces, and the production quality is great.
Damn Drew, your storytelling has always been top shelf, but that description of the battle between Ulfric and Toryyg is *chef's kiss*.
Ulfric isn't wrong, but he's shortsighted. The Empire and Dominion are both playing the long game. They both recognize that the war never ended. There was just a temporary cease fire so they could prepare for round two. If Ulfric looked at the big picture, he'd see the utility in aiding the Dunmer refugees. He is uniquely well positioned to have Morrowind indebted to the Empire and Skyrim when the next war starts. That could be a major strike to the Thalmor.
That's the problem with nationalism, it wraps everyone up in a headstrong ambition of nationhood and ethnic superiority that make long term plans and politics meaningless.
Summer from Morrowind are prideful entitled elves who wouldn’t give a shit. Have you played Morrowind? Those guys are all about hate.
@@logandickerson5628 They're also not in the position of power they once were. The living gods are long gone, Morrowind has been ravaged by natural disaster, and the Argonians have already taken advantage of their weakened state. They're not in a position to refuse aid. They have to take what they can get regardless of who it comes from. They don't have to like the empire, but they have to fight for it as long as that's where their refugees are going.
@@mindassassin I’m saying they won’t be grateful. They don’t give a shit about the nords and would likely side with the thalmar if given favorable treatment with them.
@@logandickerson5628 And I'm saying they don't have to be grateful if they don't have a choice. They have to side with whoever is taking their refugees. They may prefer that it be the dominion, but they can't refuse if it's the empire. The empire could take them all in before the dominion does and Morrowind would have very little choice but to fight with them. Skyrim, and particularly Windhelm, is in a position to do exactly that.
As a character, Ulfric is literally just Vivec:
He claims to be the ruler of his province, while the Empire is actually the one in charge. He got this position by killing the previous ruler, but nobody can agree on exactly how that happened, with the people opposing him saying it was murder, while the people who support him say that it wasn't. He cares deeply for his own race and wants what's best for them, but not so much for any other race, especially the Argonians. He rules from a city that's divided into four quarters, with one quarter specifically for outsiders. The main faction that supports his rule are a group renowned for their battle prowess, are very nationalistic, with a love for their own traditions, and dislike outsiders, especially the Empire, and whose plan to take back their province is to route all those of their own race who support the Empire. He possesses a reality warping power derived from Tonal Architecture, which he uses for his own ends. He plays a big part in the lore of his game, but only appears briefly within the main quest. The game does not portray him as inherently good or evil, and whether he lives or dies is entirely up to the player.
ulfric doesn't have a vagina.
I don't think Ulfric is as stable as Vivec, and that's saying something.
@@back2thedrawingboard852 Vivecine is going to unite Skyrim and go to Akavir to befriend, betray and murder Nerevarine to get great power that will help him protect Skyrim from the elves
Uhm yeah everyone agrees Ulfric won and the high king lost to him well before (Also Nord tradition might makes right) I see why people don't like Ulfric but to 100% dismiss him you needa characters maxed at 50
@@zackdelarosa14 No. Several Npcs will tell you that he has ripped him into pieces with his voice and when confronted about it, Ulfric will say that he shouted at him and finished him without giving him a chance to even fight.
I love how there’s been a rivalry for over a decade between people who choose imperial or choose stormcloak
A strong and fascinating dive into the many layers of Skyrim's most controversial hero. I found the neutral approach to this analysis very thorough and appropriate, which is refreshingly appreciated. I look forward to the next video, and will look at previous videos too. Nicely done.
I was never a fan of the Stormcloaks until recently. I was using Skyrim Unbound to get a random start and decided to follow the faction quest for whatever city I randomly spawned in. I ended up in Windhelm, so Stormcloaks it was. I started following the quest and although they are clearly flawed people, they are understandable to me. Their desire to control their own destiny and not be held back by a government that doesn't serve their interests really really hit home for me. I can't remember who said it, but once I heard on of the NPCs state how the Empire was too weak to rule them, but wouldn't let them rule themselves I was all in with the Stormcloak rebellion.
I think it’s Ulfric himself who says that line
@@XenohGG It is Ulfric.
Ulfric during his speech to Galmar as to why he fights.
I can totally see where they are coming from. Elisif is an idiot who doesnt understand her country and their customs. Honestly a good way to solve the civil war is to just elect balgruuf. He's neutral, understands how bad the empire can be, he understands his culture, and he csres only for his citizens.
Stormcloaks have very good reasons to be racist as well. Nords historically had to fight on their own.
People just refuse to understand though because Nords are light skinned humans and they wanna be offended by something.
I never saw the problem with Ulfric. I mean, he just wanted to Make Skyrim Great Again. Is that truly so bad?
No, no it's not damnit, stop acting like just because I'm a Dunmer literally 95% of the time means I cant support the spirit and principle of someone putting their homeland first.
Ulfric has to be one of my favorite characters out there due to how he divides the community. Funnily enough, vivec is more understood then him. I lean a little more to the imperials but the fact that tullius himself admits ulfric is partially right about the empire proves that ulfric isnt completely wrong either. If the second great war was over and ulfric wanted skyrim to leave i would support him. As the imperials have absolutely neutered the nords and their culture. They dont even worship their own pantheon anymore. But i can understand why they worship talos as they are worshipping the part of him thats wulfarth. To act like the empire are entirely the good guys is just flat out wrong. When it's war there are no good guys. And to act like ulfric is just some shallow man out for the thrown is also just petty. Ulfric is one of my favorite characters because of his depth, and because of the way you perceive him.
I always support Ulfric, because even if Skyrim separates from the Empire, they would still be strong allies against the Thalmor in the second war, and it would be better for Skyrim's morale.
Also, Talos deserves to be in the pantheon of divines. Period. It was the blessing of Talos that allowed the Hero of Kvatch to defeat Umaril and save the world.
They *would* be strong allies, yes, but fighting the Dominion with the Imperials and the Stormcloaks, instead of a unified Imperial Legion, you do lose a degree of cohesion in the ranks that the Thalmor *could* exploit. Also, I like to think that if a second great war were to break out, the *first thing* the Empire would do is repeal the Talos ban. Since, you know, the Concordat is now null at that point.
@@tonystank3091 That may be true and had Hammerfell not already done what they, did against the AD, I would probably place more weight on it. As it stands, if the various statements made about the AD and the Empire are true, it wouldn't seem too far of a possibility for a couple of provinces like Hammerfell and Skyrim to really water-down the sting of the WG concordate if were to decide to wage a cooperative attack on the AD.
I'm typically of this mentality. No one is perfect. No side is perfect. And that should be acknowledged critically. This all said, I typically side with the Empire in the war, but make it a point to kill every Thalmor I can get away with killing.
@@theamazingincrediblespider9689 I tend to do the same, but also have the Second Great War mod installed, so I can push those elven bastards out of Skyrim once and for all.
I can understand and I can sympathize with the red card considering that the empire was going to give half of hammerfell to the Dominion Skyrim is in the same position that hammerfell
A+ quality video as ever Drew. Keep up the good work! I'm loving watching this channel grow.
I love these lore videos. I can never get my Skyrim to look as good as these guys do. Really need to rewatch overhauls but I'm waiting for Odyssy of the Dragonborn to come out before I start a new playthrough.
LOL, and I've clearly been playing with Royal Armory for too long when I forgot that Ulfric's Axe isn't a unique in Vanilla.
I enjoyed this video, it was very fair and open minded for both sides.
And I appreciate that, regardless if you think the empire is right or wrong, the fact ulfric spirit made it to sovngarde, a place prepared for heroic nords says alot about his true character.
Ill have to check out that video you mentioned. The one why you think the empire should win
Going to be fare, actually all it says that Ulfric died valiantly. Being honorable or good are not the main reasons why you go to Sovngarde. They can help for sure, but not main. Olaf One-Eye is a good example.
One thing we can all agree on: Ulfric is a fantastic character
Definitely one of my favorites. Badass, cool lore, proper warrior king sort of bloke.
I disagree
@@emilandersen8628 it’s okay to be wrong.
@@emilandersen8628He’s literally the best written character in Skyrim. He’s one of the only characters I see people actively and passionately love and hate. Most Skyrim characters are forgettable and people are indifferent to him. The fact that people actually argue over him is proof that he’s a compelling character.
Imagine if Ulfric just beat Torig up pretty badly and forced him to submit at blade point, sparing his life but ending the duel in victory. He could have called a Moot and maybe even become High King himself if he could convince the Jarls, or at least see a Jarl he respects become High King and trusts to negotiate with the Empire.
Or if Ulfric put aside his ambition to be High King himself and just asked King Torig to succeed from the Empire. The process would had likely been as peaceful as Hammerfell leaving, as the Empire didn't have forces to reconquer a united Skyrim.
That could’ve risked a series of revenge conflicts and claims to the throne that would’ve just muddied up everything and wasted lives.
Look up war of the roses to see what I mean.
I’m not sure how strongly valued a “claim” to the throne is politically/socially in Skyrim but if it’s even half way serious you don’t risk it by showing mercy.
I’m not saying it’s right or that I agree with it but just trying to one of the potential reasons ulfric decided to kill him.
the lore doesn't make it clear whether it was traditionally a duel to the death or until first blood. I think that's intentional.
knowing the ancient Nords, I would lean towards duel to the death. knowing the imperials, they likely banned duelling or made rules to make them as non-lethal as possible.
Ulfric killed him during the duel, reviving an old Nord tradition, partially to prove a point, but according to the old ways, it was legal. the imperials would never accept it as being lawful though. that's where the debate starts. in that regard, if it was traditionally a duel to the death, Ulfric had an obligation to kill Torygg, and if Torygg didn't want to be killed, he shouldn't have accepted the duel. If he didn't realise it was a duel to the death, then that also kind of proves how the Nords of Solitute have forgotten old Nord customs. A lot of people criticise Ulfric for using a shout during the duel, but we must remember that although Nords shun magic, the old Nords did not shun magic, therefore it's safe to assume that casting magic in a duel was also legal. So it was a ruthless move on Ulfric's side but he proved so many points with his slaying of Torygg.
@@zekun4741 In addition, what most people seem to forget, or don't realize, part of the agreement of Skyrim's joining the Empire was Imperial gurantee that Skyrim would remain Autonomous. That is to say, they would rule themselves their way, but would tithe the Empire taxes, soldiers, etc. So the moment the Empire sent Imperial troops to 'punish the traitors' they violated their pact with Skyrim, the ancient agreement, and in doing so, have made justified Skyrim's bid for independence
@@DragonRoost1 Skyrim didn't "join" the Empire. It was conquered. Read up on the lore.
Ulfric stood as a sole Tongue and a true son of Kyne against the legions of elves. He is a glimmer of what made Skyrim originally great. I would pray if he did become High King of a united Skyrim, we would see a restoration of all the old Nord ways under him.
The old Nord ways pushed back the Elven armies once, they may be just the thing to do it again
If I were Ulfric I would establish Shor within the pantheon so that the Nine could be the Ten with Shor serving the role as the All Father of the Pantheon. Shor's corruption to Shezzar and then later made irrelevant was a severe mistake by Saint Alessia. Humanity basically won yet in order to corral the Elves to the Empire the Empire had to cuck itself by diminishing the importance of Shor because he is an enemy of the elves. I am done making concessions to those slaving knife ears. I am done with House Dres, the Thalmor, and any Thalmor apologists.
Being the sole Tongue is a source of shame. He learned the Thu'um from the Greybeards with the vow only to use the Shout to worship Kyne. Ulfric betrayed his oath, and he has used the Thu'um to murder his fellow Nords to further his own lust for power.
They say Ulfric wants to be High King and nothing more. Do they not see his anger floats on a sea of tears?
The biggest question is:
Will Ulfric ever get his hands on those _tasty nachos?_
Wut
only men of culture will understand that reference.
Hey, Proventus, meatball fight!
@@The_Lone_Outlaw you sound like a guy who loves healthy fruits and vegetables!
BAH!
Hero. Telling Nords to not worship Talos is like telling Dunmer they can't worship the good Daedra or before that the tribunal. It's a deal breaker and wholly unacceptable.
But he needs to chill out when it comes to treating other races. His follower's attitude towards elven kind, khajit, and argonians isn't justified at the slightest. What, just because their kind is the same as the Thalmor's or """turned a blind eye""" when the Thalmors invaded Cyrodill do they deserve all the treatments the Stormcloacks give upon them?
@@Jonathan--- YOU need to chill bro! There’s like what one maybe two actual racists nords? They’re also the town drunks who’ve fallen on hard times after getting wounded in the war, in which NONE of the other races helped. Just man and maybe some orcs.
Secondly, have you listened to the dark elves in Skyrim? They’re waaaaay more racist, plus for thousands years they enslaved pretty much everyone they could just because they could.
Also Windhelm is an ancient city made of stone in the Arctic smashed between a river and a mountain. There’s only so much space to live. Atleast they have protection in the city or would you prefer to make them live in the woods with the bandits, vampires and spiders the size of a schoolbus?
The khajiht are thieves, smugglers, assassins, and corrupt business owners. Not all but damn near most in Skyrim. Plus THEYRE CAT PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN JUNGLES AND DESERTS ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE CONTINENT! Their cultures don’t exactly parallel eachother. Also they’re pretty racist as well. Same with argonians.
Racism is not ok but neither is denying the existence of the story’s other side.
@@The_Lone_Outlaw I count 3 or 4 racist nords, those 2 drunks in Windhelm, Torbjorn seems to have distain for Argonians yet has no problem with having a Dunmer run his office, whom has a similar distain ,the brother of the ex-stormclock general goods merchant in Falkreath, there are probably more, but wile they support the stormcloaks, they themselves aren't, and what people don't seem to understand is they don't want to kick every foreigner in Skyrim, they just want to remove all foreign influences from their government and rule their own provinces, I sympathise with the Reachmen and their plight as they are in a similar situation but the Forsworn take it too far by been crazed daedra worshippers who will kill anyone in their territory.
@@james739123 Ulfric is a racist, literally wrote a decree forcing the Argonians out of the city walls, forces the Dunmer into a slum, and is prejudiced against both. Doesn't care for them. He also states that in his mind, Skyrim is ''meant to be'' full of Nords who are ''mighty, powerful, and free''... Full of Nords...
Stormcloak Commanders will commonly state how they will kick out the elves, Thongvor Silver-Blood blames all of elvenkind for the Talos ban, and two out of three Stormcloaks join on somewhat race-based reasons, be it disproval of elves or the belief of being a ''true Nord''.
Yeah but the legacy of Talos is the Empire, the Nords worship his empire and the unification of man. They don’t even worship their old Nordic pantheon anymore, they venerate an imperial god.
Wow, this is much more nuanced than I thought!
Shoutout floating ashes and embers on 26:08
you’re a very good writer and an equally talented narrator. good stuff!
i always love hearing storytelling of lore
Personally, I choose the side that doesn't let Thalmor roam around arresting and torturing people.
Right? They are going around capturing people and torturing them.
Not to mention the side that didn't want my head chopped off for no stated reason ("he's not on the list").
As an American, I feel bonded with the storm cloaks in a way
Stormcloak dungeons have torture equipment as well 😅
The logic of seceding assumes that by leaving the empire, the terms of the WGC no longer apply to Skyrim. Thus they can just remove the Thalmor. The legal basis for their presence disappears. But if information is to be believed, banning Talos is a critical step to the Thalmor’s plan. With Skyrim being the most prolific Talos worshipping Province in Tamriel, does anyone really believe the thalmor care about legality when it comes to that?
There’s some interesting lore in the game to show that the concordat isn’t what enables the Thalmor to do what we see in Skyrim.
• In Dragonborn, we see the Thalmor operating in Morrowind - not a signatory of the WGC - where we see them kidnapping and torturing people.
• If Ulfric wins. The Thalmor presence in Skyrim doesn’t change. Meaning Ulfric is either unwilling, or FAR more likely unable to oust them.
I think the WGC is just a convenient excuse. The Thalmor would be doing what they are regardless of any treaties.
I can tell this is going to be an awesome video. Me personally I lean more towards the Stormcloaks for a few reasons.
1. Ulfric is not some Thalmor sleeper agent like some people seem to imply. There is no Winter Soldier activation code for him to betray Skyrim.
2. The Thalmor are not as strong as everyone thinks the Redguards threw them off all by themselves.
3. The Empire is physically incapable of fighting the Thalmor as the treaty let's Thalmor police do whatever they want. Any county that let's foreign police do what they want has given up their sovereignty, sure you might think General Tulius can lead a new war against the Thalmor but if he tries to plan that he'll be taken away in the middle of the night never to be seen again.
4. Ulfric does have some problematic views but he isn't a super Nazi like some people imply or else you would see elf heads on spikes as you walk into Windhelm instead he let's a freaking Altmer run a stand in the middle of his market. That fight with the two drunks when entering Windhelm really colours peoples views of them but those are two drunks not soldiers and you later find out that, that dark elf has been hiring pirates to destroy East Empire shipping company ships.
The only chance that the Empire has is the Emperor getting assassinated leading to the council picking a good replacement and that's a big if.
1. Ulfric might not be a Thalmor sleeper agent, but he is an unknowing pawn serving Thalmor interests.
2. The Thalmor have been using the time since the war ended to grow stronger, while the nations of men grow weaker as they fight one another.
3. The Thalmor patrols don't seem that invasive as far as police forces go. I mostly just kill them and assume their disappearance is blamed on bandits.
4. While not Nazi level of racism, Ulfric certainly has Jim Crow like policies for Windhelm with Dark Elves red lined into a slum, and with Argonians and Khajiit not even allowed into the city.
@@badluck5647 The dark elves are the single most racist group of people in the setting. I seriosuly don't care what happens to a group of people that call outlanders slurs and held slaves up until very recently. His policy is nowhere near "Jim Crow", the fact that Dark Elves are even allowed in an ancestral nordic city is amazing. They don't even help with the war effort yet they still complain they don't get the same treatment as the nords fighting and dying for freedom.
Also the Imperials aren't NOT racist, listen to Tulius, he makes fun of Nord culture, religion, and people constantly.
He doesn't classify as a sleeper agent, but despite the Thalmor knowing he's not, he is used to the same devastating effect as one who knows he's a sleeper agent.
@@ReformedSauron This is a pointless argument. The Thalmor are literally just noting "hey the existence of a rebellion weakens the empire." Well duh, of course it does. I wish bethesda never added that dumb document because it's literally a surface level observation of the Thalmor's political situation. In the same document they make it clear that the Stormcloaks winning is not desriable to them.
@@fareflight2029 Your characterization of the Dark Elves is unfair as you attribute the worst features of a few Dunmer Houses to the entire race. While House Dres and Talvani are racist slavers, House Redoran were incredibly noble and House Hlaalu was increasingly cosmopolitan.
Why should the Dark Elves fight for Stormcloaks' goal for Nordic Supremacy? Imperial rule would be more preferable as it much more accepting of multi races living together. Just look at how other races are treated in Solitude vs Windhelm.
It weirdly ignorant to expect second-class citizens not to feel more grateful.
12:10 to be fair; for every collateral death inflicted you'll find you've created several new lifelong foes to your cause.
Nice video, story telling and visuals are stunning. It's nice to see that there are still ongoing discussions and narratives for Skyrim
It's pretty simple, Ulfric doesn't allow citizens to be emprisoned to be tortured by the Thalmor.
Instead, he puts anyone he doesn’t like in a ghetto (assuming they’re not killed to begin with). Great dude 😂
@@warlordofbritannia They get homes, and they themselves box themselves in the gray quarter, which the HIGH ELF that has a BUSINESS AND HOUSE in the main city says herself. But, being put in a Ghetto is a bit better than what the Dunmer did to the Argonian, which was *checks notes* ENSLAVE THEM.
@@rhazortrhazort3003
Wait, so the Dunmer doing slavery in the past justifies Ulfric treating both of them as third class citizens (at best)? By that logic, white people should be rounded up and put on pitiful reservations by Native Americans due to the enslavement of blacks.
And nobody actually chooses the live in a ghetto, why would you take that High Elf's words at face value? I read that line as being self-promoting and typical Altmer casual racism towards other elves.
@@warlordofbritannia the dunmer of the Grey Quarter made the place a shithole of their own making. They were given a whole section of Windhelm to turn into their own and yet turned it into a ghetto by themselves. They have no way to whine about the state of the Grey Quarter they made for themselves. Oh boo hoo, Ambarys, Ulfric doesnt want to come down and fix your leaky roof, maybe learn how to do it yourself?
@@warlordofbritannia No, i mean that it's stupid to think that Stormcloaks are being specially racist against Dark elves when they don't live in terrible conditions and are treated like other foreigners are treated in any place in Tamriel. People think the event when entering Windhelm is the entire Stormcloak background.
If I got to be honest I can sympathize with the Stormcloaks Alfred Stormcloak is a very flawed man however he is not evil he is a hero he's one of the greatest heroes in Skyrim and he's well-respected leader
Alfred 💀
Alfred 💀
IM CHOKING ON MY DRINK OVER ALFRED
Alfred? 💀
The Riften if Jarl’s son says that Ulfric is power hungry. I might have to believe him
If anything, Ulfric is one of the most developed and complex in-game characters. Killing him with Imperial supporting characters always left a sour taste. The only thing I dislike is when fans mix real-world politics with game characters. Tamriel ≠ Earth. Anyway, I also don’t like to rant. Thanks for another great one Drewmora!
Exactly. Keep escapism escapist.
Funnily enough, vivec is understood more than ulfric. Isnt that crazy?
Never really thought about the real world stuff. Just how foolish he was for playing into those bloody high elf hands. It shows a bit of a ill Temper/easily tricked If you go after someone you consider a friend for years after the High elves gaslight you into thinking he does not care or knows you been capture and did not help.
In a long term war It would make It easy to trick em into pulling out resources or falling for a clear trap out of pride.
@@Carzeyday But at the end of the day, you understand ulfric. Its like rikke said, nords think with their hearts not their heads.
@@Carzeyday how is he playing in the elvish hands? They could have demanded anything at the peace summit, if they wanted skyrim independent, they had said so and mede had accepted. They wanted talos to be outlawed, because gods are real in tes, and they are mighty. Weakening faith in talos is weakening talos, and they archived that. The rebellion is the worst thing that happened to the dominion. Any bloodshed between man, like stated in that dosier, are A both parties to blame for, because the empire could just accept skyrims independence without fight, and B irrelevant, for it took a few redguards with the gods favor to extinct all elves from hammerfell, 500 nords with the gods favors to bring the falmer close to extinction, a few slaves with the gods favor to topple the ayleids. The empire, spit on akatosh when they put a mortal on the throne that belongs to dragonborns, who therefore share blood with akatosh himself, and they spit on talos when they accepted the wgc. Ulfric has the voice of dragons and talos in his hearth. His "military strength" is irrelevant for when the gods want, he could fight alone and still beat the dominion.
Here's me waniting an ending to that quest line where you take the fight to those high elves with the stormcloaks and empire working side by side.
Absolutely incredible video!!!! I loved the vibe of the elder scrolls growing up but could never focus enough to sit and read the lore books or listen to the npcs 😅😂 your videos have brought back not only the nostalgia but given me a deeper understanding of the world and a renewed passion for the series despite bethesdas less than favorable practices and recent failures. Keep up the great work! Much love brother
20:40 i just realized the irony of a man slaying a "puppet of the empire"
only to later find out he's been a puppet of the Thalmor (empire) since before that 'battle'
I stand by the true High King Ulfric. It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees. Even if Skyrim can't win a war with the Elven Army it's better to die fighting.
The empire is actively building up a army to fight the elves that’s why tulius is so under equipped if the stormcloaks win that weakens the empire making a victory against the thalmor unlikely
@@SirEggo2412
And that army is going to be immediately destroyed or used to oppress the people in favour of the WGC, since the thalmor have completely infiltrated the empire. The empire is done for.
Besides there's no point in liberating Tamriel from the thalmor only to have it enslaved by the empire again.
Better a grace than a slave
Grave*
@@robbstark3316that’s pretty ironic given that Ulfric is trying to speed run humanity’s destruction or slavery lmao. He’s diverting vital resources that could be used to fight against the aldmeri dominion. He’s literally weakening their only chance of winning lmao.
Hero, stormcloaks are the only ones doing something about the thalmor while the empire kisses their butts
The Thalmor see an Imperial victory as harmful.
Ulfric is anything but a hero, since he's the reason why the Justiciars showed up and why Alduin returned.
@@dutchpatriot17 The thalmor see a stormcloak victory as harmful
and no he is not, He is the one fighting the justiciars unlike the empire. And blaming him for Alduin is just absurd, He was sent forward with the scroll. He was going to come back at some point
@@Kirasupporter1 Incorrect, the Thalmor do not consider a Stormcloak victory as harmful. Only as something to also be avoided.
Ulfric's actions at Markarth is literally the reason why the Justiciars were ever allowed in to enforce the Talos ban. Prior to that the ban was not enforced.
Alduin would return when the conditions of the prophecy were met. Which came true thanks to Ulfric.
@@dutchpatriot17 Why would they want to avoid it if they didn't consider it harmful? That makes no sense. Why would the Thalmor want their people to be killed by stormcloaks?
No the reason the Justiciars were allowed to enforce the ban is because the empire sanctioned it with a treaty.
And, Alduin was going to return regardless, if you believe there is a prophecy then that it means it wad fated to happen, If it would have happened anyway you cannot blame ulfric
@@dutchpatriot17 Why would they want to avoid it if they didn't consider it harmful? That makes no sense. Why would the Thalmor want their people to be killed by stormcloaks?
No the reason the Justiciars were allowed to enforce the ban is because the empire sanctioned it with a treaty.
And, Alduin was going to return regardless, if you believe there is a prophecy then that it means it was fated to happen, If it would have happened anyway you cannot blame ulfric. In fact, your logic could be used to blame the empire for alduin too
Ulfric is definitely my favorite character in the entire game. He has so much complexity with many subtle motives and positive and negative aspects of his character. He feels like a flawed person, just like all of us. And because of this, it's truly a difficult choice to side with the Empire or the Stormcloaks. Personally I prefer the Stormcloaks because I really resonate with their ideals of freedom and independence, but both sides ultimately are working against the true evil, the Thalmor.
The opening description of events is chilling
Drew love you homie keep the content coming even if your off on your own I’ll keep watching you like I’ve watched fudgemuppet every single day for years, I’ll keep that going here
Oh boy, I'm sure this chat will be filled with nothing but civil discussion. No straw-man arguments or name-calling here! No sir-ee.
So far the chat seems pretty tame, but it's only been a day \_😐_/
Honestly minus a certain Dutch troll and a few ignorant fools the comments have been pretty decent for this topics standards.
It seems that the imperial fans aren’t here in mass like normal so when/if they show up then shit will probably hit the fan then.
@@The_Lone_Outlaw Buddy, you were the one spreading around ignorance, lmfao.
Nords have a "might makes right" philosophy. Therefore, in this context Ulfric is entirely justified. Furthermore, this is precisely the in-game philosophy of the Dragonborn, who is the ultimate difference-maker in the Civil War questline. The Wikipedia entry sums up this ancient real-world philosophy thusly:
["The idea of _"woe to the conquered"_ is vividly expressed in Homer, in the hawk parable from Hesiod's Works and Days, and in Livy, in which the equivalent Latin phrase _"vae victis"_ is first recorded.
The idea, though not the wording, has been attributed to the History of the Peloponnesian War by the ancient historian Thucydides, who stated that _"right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."_
In the first chapter of Plato's Republic, Thrasymachus claims that _"justice is nothing else than the interest of the stronger",_ which Socrates then disputes. Callicles in Gorgias argues similarly that the strong should rule the weak, as a right owed to their superiority.
The first commonly quoted use of "might makes right" in English was in 1846 by the American pacifist and abolitionist Adin Ballou (1803-1890), who wrote, _"But now, instead of discussion and argument, brute force rises up to the rescue of discomfited error, and crushes truth and right into the dust. 'Might makes right,' and hoary folly totters on in her mad career escorted by armies and navies."]_
This is all to say that Ulfric's motivations has some real juice to it. Although the in-game information on him doesn't suggest he has any self-awareness of being a pawn to the Thalmor, Nordic philosophy infers that he likely would be aware of this fact. But that doesn't matter to him. He knows his intentions are just, and whether or not he dies in the conflict, Sovngarde is still the big picture. Fighting and losing against insurmountable odds is the essence of the ultimate tragic hero in Nordic culture. Flawed? Yes. But that's what makes true heroes. They are bound to Fate, but their titanic willpower can move its threads.
I think the whole point went over your head and you're giving it all to much thought. All societies in tamriel have a might makes right mentality to a point but even in Skyrim there have been changes to that way of thought. The dragon born doesn't follow that philosophy either, the player might but the lore will be told that the hero will slay the world eater then beat the first dragon born then disappear. Our part in the civil war won't be remembered or won't even be brought up, Ulfric is set up to lose and his rebellion will just help change Skyrim for the better. Selfish leaders like him needed to be delt with since he wouldn't stop at Skyrim, he would want to spread out and conquer. He is a man of the old ways but the world can't let people like him remain, he is a relic and shall be used as a symbol of what not to be.
@@everettjohnson9374 Respectfully, I think _you're_ the one who's missed the point. The Dragonborn absolutely does follow that philosophy - it's the way of the Dragons, after all. Shouting is a verbal contest to defeat the other. Slaying the World-Eater is done by strength and might.
Ulfric is "set up to lose" and is "selfish?" I get that you don't agree with this philosophy, but what you've said here indicates to me you don't fully grasp this philosophical principle.
Not all races "follow might makes right mentality to a point." The Altmer as a whole certainly do not. The current Fourth Era Thalmor are actually an anomaly and complete deviation of Altmer cultural principles.
I think a lot of people misunderstand the concept of "might makes right". Might makes right is true, in the sense that at the end of the day, the strong will inevitably force their will on the weaker, there is no justice when you're powerless to bring justice. Therefore, when building a nation, you must always keep in mind that being capable of defending yourself is the only thing that's keeping you from injustice. That concept is not rejection of morality, it doesn't really say that anything the people in power do is morally acceptable, it's just a realistic view of how the world works.
So, regarding Ulfric, if he subscribes to the might makes right concept, what that means is Skyrim needs to be ruled by the strong to not face injustice, and Torygg is a weak ruler.
@@zekun4741 Agreed. Good comment. Might makes right is certainly fair play for the Nords when they abide by the principles of _honor._ What does possessing honor mean for Ulfric? Well, if judging the standard by real Norse vikings, everything comes down to your reputation. Doesn't mean everyone has to see him in a fair light. Apparently, he has a large population of Nords who do think he is a reputable warrior. Acquiring _fame_ is the other part of the equation here. Fame grows honor, and thereby leverages his right by might. It's not about whether he's 'right' or 'wrong'. He's literally _making_ it just. Justice/injustice is on a scale, encompassed by the Nordic moral code of honor.
My problem is that he killed King Torygg in a traditional duel in a dishonorable way, notice how all of Skyrim doesn’t just leap into his arms after that. I’m sure in the traditional way Nords would shout eachother to death and hack away limbs against more equal opponents to display honor and valor, the truest sense of “might is right”. The culture of Skyrim has definitely shifted from the old ways, the Greybeards certainly don’t approve because Kyne gave them the voice to liberate mankind not oppress and kill political opponents. I think Ulfric pissed away his bargaining power, Torygg was sympathetic to his cause. Imagine an amicable split from the empire where instead Ulfric just mentors the young King instead, historically speaking some of the best leaders we’ve had were young. Torygg never had the chance to rule, the only detriment to his character was that he got married and loved his wife which was perceived as a weakness? Despite that when challenged he accepted knowing it was the death of him, he was brave when it counted. I think that had more to do with Ulfric wanting to be King than gaining independence and liberating his people.
Not to mention, about Torygg, he very clearly staunchly worshipped Talos, the god Ulfric Stormcloak is so adamant about worshipping freely. Ulfric's grievances were, and are, absolutely warranted, but I agree that his biggest error in judgment was challenging the High King in court, knowing he didn't stand a reasonable chance against him.
Elisif asks you to take Torygg's War Horn to a secluded Shrine of Talos, just outside of Whiterun, not because she cares about Talos, but because _he did._ That piece of evidence gives a lot of weight in my mind to Sybille Stentor's supposition that, had Ulfric simply stood up and asked the now-High King Torygg (a position of authority, power, and the people's support) directly to declare independence, Torygg might have done it.
We've come a long way since 11/11/2011 in this fandom, that I can say for sure, and I'm frankly very glad to do so. I remember how tribal people used to get over Stormcloaks and Imperials lol, and that was a time period PRECEDING the 2016-era political shift to an even nastier, even less nuanced paradigm hahaha, which really says a lot. I'm glad we can now just appreciate the sides as they are, without having to justify or ignore each side's demerits or merits depending on where we thought we'd fall if the conflict were real. Thanks as always, Drew.
Just curious, how do you feel about Paarthunax? I look at it like this, if uncle Adolf survived WW2 and became a man of peace would you love and support him? Nah. He's still a war criminal.
Nah Stormcloak victory would be better as they'd be more likely to get high rock (by extension also Orsinium) and Hammerfell alliances who's military prowess are both severely underrated.
I believe that, whether he realizes it or not, he is a villain. A villain with a righteous cause, but a villain all the same
He's kind of anti hero not villian for a villian , their cause is never righteous, but selfish. For an anti hero his cause is righteous but his methods are dubious, just like Ulfric
25:25
Wait, how is Ulfric a puppet of the Aldmeri Dominion?
Did I miss somewhere in the video where he mentions Ulfric taking direct orders from the Elves? I feel like there is a difference between a man who is following his own goals and it just so happens that the stalemate is beneficial to the Aldmeri compared to him being a puppet/pawn in their pocket.
Well yes in long game ulfric's rebellion is beneficial for elves. That make him an un- intended pawn. Not exactly a puppet.
It all makes sense, however the Almeri failed to predict the Dragonborn is a wildcard that could choose any side of the conflict or as in my case as the player, I picked neither side and killed off all Aldmeri I could find. But surely this wont be canon :)
As Arvind said, pawn is definitely a better choice of word than puppet. He isn't taking orders, only playing into Thalmor hands.
@@DrewmoraYT The line between pawn and puppet is mightily thin I reckon! :D
Okay, that makes sense. For a second I thought I missed something huge where he was a legit plant by the thalmor.
Historically, the character of Ulfric has always reminded me of the characters of Spartacus and Leonidas, that we as human beings are nothing but like beasts!! Without our customs, traditions and religions, while Talius reminded me of Julius Caesar and Achilles that to achieve anything there must be prosperity and the availability of security and justice, the option of killing them or one of them was not available in my hands at the time.
Caesar was a genocidal maniac who mass murdered his way through Gaul killing off 20% of its population and for what? Greed!
This gave me chills! Great story telling!
My deceased friend once described Ulfric as “Skyrim’s Nigel Farage” and for some reason it’s always stuck with me
Had to check the channel name again as I was sure I didn't open a FudgeMuppet video. Turns out I have missed this channel being created by Drew.
Over the years, the more I've thought about it, the more and more I side with Ulfric and the Stormcloaks. And that, despite how I used to argue ad nauseum on behalf of the Empire.
I find it odd now, too, to side with the Empire at all in _Skyrim,_ considering the game itself starts with you as an innocent Imperial prisoner, being sent to the literal chopping block... without due process and despite you not being "on the list," by the way. "Forget the list! He goes to the block!" That's important.
And after Alduin attacks, you're rescued not by Hadvar but by Ralof. Hadvar only tolerates you tagging along later because he's got bigger fish to fry, but Ralof willing put himself in harm's way to get you to safety! That speaks volumes to Ralof's character as a man.
So, from the very beginning of the game, the Empire went out of its way to try to murder an innocent man or woman without cause, but the Stormcloaks went out of their way to help you.
I'm convinced now that most of us who started out years ago siding with the Empire by default, at least those of us who played _Oblivion,_ most likely did so out of nostalgia for Uriel VII, Martin, and what the Empire used to be.
It's just saying that the Empire and the Emperor is failing. Like the avatar of Talos Wulf said in Morrowind: "The Emperor is getting old. Don't know how much longer he'll hang on. So is the whole Empire, for that matter. Getting old, that is. The Emperor and the legions have held the Empire together for hundreds of years. It's been a good thing, by and large. But maybe it's time for a change."
When i first played skyrim i sided with the empire too. But the empire died that day with martin. After my second or third playthrough i sided with the stormcloaks, first out of curiosity, but after hearing there side, hearing what the empire became, i first was saddened to see what they became, but by now they just disgust me. The dragonborn is the rightful emperor, no question in that. And that tulius, and all the other, don’t fall praying in front of you as soon as the greybeards call you ysmir just shows that they arent imperials. Just pretenders or larpers that soil the heritage and symbols of the empire.
@@georgemurdock7670 Delphine (and Esbern) can lick rust as well. Supposedly a Blade, she knows exactly who and what you are from having witnessed it first-hand. But then she and Esbern dare to order you around and cut you off from the Blades (excuse me, I thought the Dragonborn was their leige lord???) when you refuse to murder Paarthurnax for crimes he had long ago renounced, repented of, and repaid. Delphine and Esbern sucks, and if they weren't essential NPCs I would kill them myself every single playthrough. And because of them (especially Delphine), I now hate the Blades too and hope they go extinct with their long overdue deaths.
@@HickoryDickory86 idk, i like the blades cuz of oblivion still but Delphine is very shitty. The blades saved the world after all and i like the gear, and i kill phartunax for a lot of reasons anyways, never really thought about the blades tho. They should be your personal guards, and i guess they kinda are when you recruit followers into there ranks, but delphine gives the commandos and sends you around like a attack dog 🤔
But she says they are now dragon killer and no emperor protectors 🤷🏻♂️
I agree, but i have to imagine that a big part of Skyrim's opening was made deliberately to illicit this feeling of "damn, the Empire sucks nowadays, these Stormcloak guys are where it's at"
I like how the mod you have that changes Ulfric's goatee makes him look a LOT more like the celtic, specifically Gaulish chieftain, Vercingetorix, who rebelled against Rome (albeit, BEFORE they took over Gaul, modern-day France).
Edit: Thanks for the ❤️, Drew!
This commentary was fire
The stormcloaks pretty much choose to die on their feet than live on their knees. Live free or die. You have to respect that. Not one single play through have I ever been able to join the imperials..
I will never play as an Imperial! Like Ulfric said "The empire I knew never surrendered!" And that's what Titus Mede II did when he signed that concordant.
@@MEWJr90 elaborate
Everything you've just said is exactly spot on the imperials live on their knees under the thalmor, as opposed to the stormcloaks who do not.
Casually oppressing their own people for worshipping talos because the elves won't allow it 😂
The empire is like a drunk guy down a pub saying if I didn't hurt my knee I'd have been a pro player yknow !
Ulfric acts on his beliefs, the empire are too busy bowing to thalmor demands against their own people all while being wink wink nudge nudge don't worry we're all on the same team it's comical !
The empire are weak fools. Sacrificing their liberties and securities for a false sense of safety. First class fools.
@MEWJr90 they literally go along with everything the thalmor says and do what they're told yet you claim they're not living on their knees? 😂yeah OK..
The empire was weak and they would be the first to admit that
And legate rikka says that infront of tulius and then has to make out she didn't say anything after he asks what was that 😂😂😂😂😂
The empire was pathetic, their tail tucked between their legs cowering behind the thalmor aldmeri dominion 😂
Yeah, people with too big of an ego that they only care for themselves instead of looking at ths big picture. Very "respectable".
To me, Hammerfell proves that Ulfric's cause is the right one to support. The Empire had every advantage against the Thalmor and while they were exhausted, the Aldmeri Dominion were in far worse shape at the time of the Imperial surrender. The Imperials betrayed Skyrim and Hammerfell both, and Hammerfell proved that the Aldmeri couldn't even take over a province right next to them if it continued to show a solid resistance. Skyrim, much further away, has even better chances against the Thalmor than Hammerfell did as a result.
The Imperials have fallen beyond disrepute; it is time for Skyrim to follow the Redgards into being a powerful and noble independent people against the Thalmor. There may come a time for a new empire to rise, but for now, the Thalmor will have a harder time against multiple independent provinces than they will against a single Imperial Empire.
It is canon that Hammerfell was spared by the Dominion.
I love Ulfric. He would be a great leader for the second war. It would be cool if in the next game his descendent was in charge of Skyrim and he helped hammerfell fight off the dominion on the second war.
@MM King none of that is true at all
I think the idea that Ulfric is just blindly playing into the Thalmor’s hand is silly. He must see the same thing as everyone, that the Dominion hopes to divide and conquer. But he also saw the Empire’s promises were worthless and that Hammerfell was able to hold.
Ultimately it is a question of who you trust to keep Skyrim safe, the Empire or Ulfric.
How much does the sanctioning of a Thalmor embassy devoted to hunting down your neighbors and loved ones bother you?
A lot. No sane person would ever support a government that allows foreign agents to persecute him and his people. Especially if it's a foreign government.
Hammerfel also received a lot of help from the Empire during the war, it’s not really fair to say they truly solo’d the dominion when General Decianus was in Hammerfel fighting them pretty much the whole time before he was called back to help retake the Imperial city. He also disbanded his Redguard legionnaires after the WGC (White Gold Concordat) so that they could go home and help win the war there. They should honestly be grateful they got any help whatsoever because as we all know, Lord Naarafin split off the the larger dominion army to attack Cyrodiil, the atrocities he committed were unlike anywhere else in the Great War. The Empire truly did the best they could, and while yes they signed the WGC and basically abandoned Hammerfel, they also made it possible for them to win overall. There are things to consider like how bad the attrition was in the Alik’r desert during the “trail of thirst”, sending battered Empire forces after the battle of Red Ring would’ve just been a liability and failure, letting the Redguards fight for their province was the only good option.
There would’ve been no justicars in Skyrim if Ulfric wasn’t manipulated by his capture and sent off on a revenge spree. His proclamation to bring back Talos worship and murder of High King Torygg is what brought in the justicars, breaching the WGC is grounds for war and the Thalmor were banking on this happening to destabilize the Empire, talk to any loyalist nord of the Empire, they did not enforce the Talos ban. As Rikke put it “Nords lack subtlety” but had they stuck to the original plan to help build up the Empire, they would’ve got a sweeter revenge on the Thalmor, but no just a pointless Civil war.
@@sercravenmohead3631
Stop spreading lies.
The only help Hammerfell received were a few "invalids" from a mere general disobeying his orders to abandon Hammerfell. The rest of the empire completely abandoned Hammerfell and sold out the entirety of humanity and Talos himself by signing the WGC. There's no mention that Lord Narifin's army was larger and since he was merely a distraction it's way more possible that it was smaller. There's also no mention of Decianus disbanding his legion nor of Redguards returning except for those "invalids".
Ulfric and the Nords have every right to rebel against the WGC and the empire. The thalmor always operated within the empire before the WGC (Night Of Green Fire)due to the empire's incompetence, so your loyalists are wrong and now due to its cowardice it now legally allows the thalmor to do whatever they want and target countless of innocent people that the empire was supposed to protect.
So get out of here with that bs, nobody is buying it and we've been over this already.
@@sercravenmohead3631one could argue that Skyrim is just as much a quagmire factory as Hammerfell, at least once winter hits.
Ultimately, I think it is a dumb play to start the civil war, but it was Ulfric’s call to make. He was the one in a position to make a run at the throne, and much as the Empire can’t keep Skyrim, the Thalmor couldn’t either, so it is good real politik to make his run at being High King.
My points were more related to what the “average soldier” who supports the stormcloaks would think….which is that Ulfric is a better bet at keeping Skyrim safe than the Empire.
It would be really interesting as canon to have Ulfric and the Stormcloaks win the civil war and then back TLD as a new emperor after the DB assassination of Titus Mede.
I don’t think TLD would join the dark brotherhood
@@paulaccuardi9071
I'm not saying that he would join the Dark Brotherhood.
But I'm pretty sure that Mede's assassination is going to be canon and I also seriously doubt that TLD is going to look a gift horse in mouth. He may not thank the DB directly for the favor, but I seriously doubt he's going to balk at the opportunity that they give him to take the Ruby Throne.
such magnificent cinematics !
Helluva video bruv. Love it.
“No country has ever prospered that failed to put its own interests first. Both our friends and our enemies put their countries above ours and we, while being fair to them, must start doing the same. We will no longer surrender this country or its people to the false song of globalism. The nation-state remains the true foundation for happiness and harmony." - In terms of TES lore, this is exactly why I choose to side with Stormcloaks
Funny, because Ulfric shits on far more of Skyrim's customs than the Empire does.
@@dutchpatriot17 Would you rather get shit on by Ulfric or some foreign invader?
Is it fair to belittle torygg? He accepted the duel with honor knowing full well he would die. He also said his only regret was leaving his wife alone
Justice for Torygg!
He definitely seemed like a decent man and possibly(a huge stretch) a decent leader if he’d of gone ahead with becoming independent.
It was a tragedy ulfric never game him that chance even though I can very much understand why, it was a tragedy nonetheless.
Still support the stormcloaks 110% though.
@@The_Lone_Outlaw see you lost me on that last part. I am a complete backer of the Empire
@@just_addd_water_to_your_ramen TRAITOR!
@@zefft.f4010 wdym the stormcloaks are betraying their empire and their fellow countrymen
I think Ulfric is a complicated, yet uncomplex man. He is a good tactician but not an experienced strategist.
I like to play Skyrim as a Redguard sent to help Ulfric in winning the war. How this character helps doesn't matter. What matters is that a free Skyrim is more likely ally with Hammerfell (Or, hell, even just come to the table to talk).
I like to play my character as a prisoner who was offered freedom in exchange for this mission (Maybe even a Daedra worshiper, if I want to have some fun). Lokir of Rorikstead was my unwitting guide into Skyrim, that's why he always says, "we don't belong here," cuz he didn't know. That's also why Ulfric was in Darkwater Crossing (the southern most part of Eastmarch). He was expecting an envoy from Hammerfell. The Dominion got wind, tipped off the Empire, and then starts the story of the Last Dragonborn.....
Nice. I like the story idea.
to be fair I feel like two beings who can shout (especially at least one who can apparently shout people into pieces) would make fantastic allies for Hammerfell... and they come with an army to boot.
Nice
I too try to imagine the back story for the character in Skyrim; for example one of the characters I created is an Imperial whose family and friends were Talos worshipers and inhabited southern Cyrodiil; his house of the protagonist was burned and family and friends killed by a reprisal of supporters of the Thalmor, remaining the only survivor he fled further and further north developing a hatred both towards the Dominion but also towards the emperor who did not lift a finger. Over the years he was trained in magic (he learned the magic of lightning, fire and a healing spell), as well as training in weapons (especially two-handed ones) from a Nord settled in Cyrodiil, who told him about the land of Skyrim . Seleuco (the character's name) travels to the land of the north but was unfortunately intercepted by an imperial patrol who arrested him and put him on the chariot together with Ulfric's rebels. Although Seleuco tried to explain that he had nothing against them, he was sentenced to be beheaded and therefore after fleeing from Alduin and then being welcomed by Ralof he began to take a liking to Ulfric's cause.
@@goldenironman3408 Good backstory. I like it.
when ever i hear Midday sun, i think, "Waywhere to urches midday sun" Mysterim xarcsies. Glad youtube recomended this channel, i only watched Fudgemuppet for these videos
This is such an interesting perspective. Thank you for making this video!
I think that Alvor, Harvar's Blacksmith Uncle in Riverrun, has some solid quotes overall regarding Ulfric and the Civil War
"Of course. Skyrim has always been part of the Empire. That doesn't mean I support everything the Empire's been doing lately, but Nords have never been fair-weather friends."
"It's from that treaty that ended the Great War, remember, when the Emperor was forced by the Thalmor to outlaw Talos worship. We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down. Dragging people off in the middle of the night... one of the main causes of this war, if you ask me."
"People are rightly stirred up about the damn Thalmor being allowed to roam around arresting people, just for worshipping Talos. But was it worth tearing Skyrim apart, and maybe destroying the Empire? No, Ulfric will have a lot to answer for in the end. Nords have always supported the Empire, and the Empire has always been good for Skyrim.".
*Oh, and just a Disclaimer, I'm no fan-boi of the Septim or Mede Empire, or even the Stormcloaks for that matter. I merely speak of this from the perspective of the Civil War argument in general. If the Empire gets it's @$$ handed to it, I could care less. I'm saying Ulfric's methods, as well as history, combined with his Endgame just ain't it, chief. I'm a Dominion fan, through and through. I don't like all the Thalmor methods either but, I stand with the sons and daughters of the Elven Et'Ada any day*
But also consider it was the empire promising ulfric free worship only to immediately imprison him once he had done their dirty work for them that lead to ulfric causing a big deal the empire may be good in some areas for skyrim but they also are fully willing to manipulate the Nords and them toss them aside for the sake of stabilising their already broken empire
Alvor definitely seems like an appeaser his philosophy is "If you're a good boy maybe they won't murder you." If the Redguards can fight them off the Nords certainly can.
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Oh of course, I don't disagree, that's absolutely true, I'm no lover of the Empire myself, rest assured. My point is that in the end, if he's gonna leave then at least do it for the long term, don't cause more of a mess than it already is. I made another comment in the main Thread, if you'd like to see my point more in depth.
@@placeholder2586 the empire did what it has to in order to remove the mad man from Markarth. The original promise was from the Jarl himself and Ulfric just had to make things worse by refusing to leave unless the imperials guaranteed it as well. The Imperials were in the right to arrest the man, it's only unfortunate they didn't just kill him then 🤷
@@klaykid117
The Redguards are far better warriors than the Nords. Nords aren't as hardy as their Atmoran Ancestors, and keep in mind that the Dominion still got the Redguards into a Stalemate after 5 years, and that was after the Dominion lost one of their Armies in Cyrodil after still decimating most of the Imperial Legions.
So the Dominion fighting and holding their own in the Redguard's home Territory (Redguards also had help, keep in mind) is still impressive. And keep in mind that Ulfric wants to "take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion", meaning he's not gonna sit by and just wait for the next Great War to pop off, he's gonna go to them.
He and half of the Stormcloaks won't make it to the Shoreline of Alinor, much less anywhere near their capital. The Summerset Isles is a BEAST to invade. Tiber Septim's own army didn't want to invade the 2nd Dominion cause they KNEW they'd get a bloodbath.
The Numidium was essentially the only way. Even the Maormer failed 90% of the time with their invasions, and they're THE greates sea faring race of all Tamriel
If I was in the world of Skyrim and knew what the average person knew, I'd side with Ulfic
I think it would depend a lot on a few things, mainly: if i was a Great War veteran or not, where i lived, what i did for a living
Because reallistically some people wouldn't know about Ulfric's deeds, or care that much about an independent Skyrim with free Talos worship
@@Spike2276 i dos we your point there. Like if you were from the reach, and have witnessed the markarth incident, you might just be repulsed enough to fight for the empire or not fight at all. Also if you were from solitude and had the empire breathing down your neck and spreading propaganda, you might not hear about anything good about Ulfic. However, the opposite could be true if you lived in a very traditional aera such as Windhelm (not to mention Ulfic loving there himself). Now that I think about it, anyone who is not a Nord has no real reason to ever fight with Ulfic. They would either remain neutral or naturally side with the empire.
@@gabr.7878 even the Great War veteran thing isn't a sure shot either as we see with Rikke, because while some veterans may refuse to abandon a wronged brother, others may simply be too loyal to the ideals of the Empire
And like i said, what i did for a living would matter a lot: if i'm a random farmer who has had crops requisitoned by imperial troops, or family abducted by Justiciars, then i'm going Ulfric all day every day
Where if i'm a merchant who sees the prosperity that the Empire brings with it's southern trade, or if i've had lots of exposure to Imperial culture such as by spending time in Cyrodill, then i just might go Empire
That's the beauty of the Skyrim civil war, everyone who fights in it has an understandable reason to do it
@@Spike2276 I agree with you on your last point. With all the crap I see people give to the writing of Skyrim, it is impossible to deny the masterpiece of writing that is the civil war. If only there was a little more attention given to the actual in game quests and less content was cut, it would be by far the best part of game
@n n In all honesty, I think every single side of this conflict left a mess and did wrong. The Thalmor of course waged war on everyone and repressed religious freedom, the empire abandoned Hammerfell and threw Skyrim under the bus, an Ulfric is in open rebellion and committed the Markarth incident. Everyone is guilty of something. It's all a cycle of violence
Great video, I agree on almost every point and I'm happy to see someone finally giving him a fair chance, instead of viewing him through a modern, Western political lense, from a moral high horse or just calling him stupid when impulsive would be the right word. I support the Stormcloaks, though not fanatically. Instead, I'd place myself closer to Jarl Dengeir, who acknowledges Ulfric's flaws while supporting his ideals.
I wish that one day Skyrim and the Empire could make peace and turn their blades towards the Aldmeri Banner.
Amazing video !
At the Same time though, The Emperor Hired the Dark brotherhood to Kill him, so i doubt he actually had a plan post war
Imagine if world war 2 ended in a draw, in which Germany was allowed to to through every country looking for whoever they wanted and taking them prisoner. End it’s been going on for 30 years. That’s the equivalent of what the Nords see. Who people can say that he should have just waited, when it has been 30 years.
Ulfric literally collaborated with the Thalmor, which is the entire reason why the Thalmor were allowed to send in their Justiciars in the first place.
One thing a lot of people don't mention is that Ulfric's rebellion is not an actual rebellion, they don't want to take over the Empire, what they want to do is secede from the Empire. And it makes sense since the Imperials have become quite decadent and never miss a chance to insult the Nords. The Breton High Priest of Akatosh even wrote a book talking about how the Nords have misunderstood the nature of Akatosh and that Alduin was the same as Akatosh and his character was non-existent, a result of nonsensical, incorrectly passed on oral traditions by the Nords. Of course, the game makes it clear that the Nord oral traditions were right.
…that’s still a rebellion. Like, by definition waging war against the established order to form a new one is a rebellion.
Otherwise you’d have to argue the 13 colonies didn’t actually rebel, or the Confederacy.
@@warlordofbritannia hard to say really it’s like calling the American revolution a rebellion
It kinda was though. A succesful one, but still a Rebellion, no matter how UA-cam call it later.
I just wish I could the throw the Thalmor dossier they have on him into his face and make him realize that they let him go in the first place and his entire crusade against the empire is playing right into their hands and is exactly what they wanted him to do. The strongest argument against the Stormcloak rebellion is right here in my inventory, and I can't even use it...
Like, more power to ya if you want to worship Talos, but fighting your own allies against the Thalmor is literally the worst thing you can do.
"(Prefiero morir de pie, que vivir de rodillas) I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees."
- Emiliano Zapata
I still love his initial speech so much. It's inspiring, if anything.
Can’t fault a man for loving his homeland
But can fault him for his actions in what he consider "defend of his homeland".
@@troller8680 like what? What has he done that is so unforgivable
@@Dudebruhthe420th giving Thalmor an exuse to enter Skyrim? Being one of the reasons Talos worshippers were hunted down? Starting Civil war and weakening both Skyrim and Empire? Being an asset to the Dominion (Elenwen words,not mine)? Don't get me wrong, Empire did plenty of shite, but so did Ulfric too.
@@troller8680 but that doesn’t make him a villain, he’s an idiot (from our point of view)
@@Dudebruhthe420th and never did I called him a villain. Does not mean his actions were good. He judges the Empire for its sins. Fair it is to judge him for his.
"All hail to Ulfric! You are the High King! In your great honor we dance and we sing...but this land is ours and we'll see it wiped clean of the scourge that has sullied our hopes and our dreams."
Damn. I never realized how dark and disturbing that little song is until you spelt out the lyrics like that.
Skyrim deserves independence from the Cyrodilic Empire, but not under Ulfric. He's too shortsighted, volatile, and polarizing to be High King. Elisef isn't suited to be High Queen either -- she was Torygg's trophy wife and her ineptitude for leadership shows in how her steward and thanes are actually running Haafingar.
In my mind, the Last Dragonborn decides to just take the throne for him/herself because every other candidate is stupid, evil, or both.
You know I thought this too! And...I actually did some research into it. Theoretically, anyone can become a Thane or High King IF they can prove themselves as being worthy. Being dragonborn, possessing the Jagged Cron, AND slaying the World Eater? According to Nord Tradition thats more then enough for the DB to throw their hat in the High King ring.
This is why I choose stormcloaks. It frees them from imperial and thalmor slavery plus gives them Talos back to worship openly. Now ulfiric waits for the moot to become high king.. he becomes high king. Yuh then challenge him and spank him like ulfric spanked toryyg and now yuh are rightfully high king and Skyrim belongs to the nords!!
Though I choose the empire in the end I agree that's Skyrim- independent or not- probably deserves a better high king or queen than the two options. I'd be voting Balgruuf if there was a moot- just the right temperament and he is not incompetent.
I am of the opinion that the Dragonborn is the true heir to the Empire of Cyrodiil, and should be upon the throne and potentially re-light the dragonfires
Hear me out: High King Balgruuf.
An Empire that’s forced to break its promises cannot be trusted to rule over Skyrim. The most realistic outcome would be for the Dragonborn to negotiate a peaceful withdrawal of Imperial forces without further bloodshed, so that the Empire can reinforce its defenses in Cyrodiil.
In Helgen, I always liked to imagine that Thalmor woman, (I can’t spell her name), was genuinely begging General Tullius to reconsider what he was doing. Or at least, she was trying to do it in a way that didn’t seem like she was begging. And General Tullius, being who he was, actually stood up to her.