15:00 I spent the first 29 years of my life (less adolescence) addicted to pornography. I was on a lonely and lifeless path. After hearing this part, I had to stop building the crib for my newborn twins to say that it was engaging with the prayers of the Church, orienting my life to something higher, that freed me from pornography some 6 years ago. I've never looked again after experiencing the Lord while praying St Ephrem's Prayer to the Holy Spirit. Life has been fruitful (with its obvious challenges) since. Marriage, three beautiful children, and on the journey into the Church.
“Men have to be men so woman can be women”. I am a woman who 100% agrees with that. It’s been true in my own life. My husband is a good spiritual leader as well as protecting and providing for his family. This frees me to focus on taking care of him and our kids. It’s also a great example for our children to see male and female working together towards the same goals in harmony. Instead of the The current culture of competition between the sexes. That only serves to break down family and society. Great talk!
That's great, and I'm glad that works out for you guys. We have something similar going on here with our homeschool family. There is a caveat though. Now this may be just in regards to the circles I move in of course, but here it is: I have never seen this strength of manhood manifest in a situation where the man's ancestral background is Muslim, Confucian or Dharmic, but he tries to lead the family as a Christian and a Westerner. All too often these men are incurable people pleasers trying to fit in. I have seen it in non-Muslim ancestry men that turn to Islam though, where that embrace helps them be more rooted in that ancestry (like I became more Chinese by doing so for eg). This isn't about saying "Islam is best" or anything so crude and sectarian. It is about saying loyalty to roots might be vital for this masculinity to show up. Salaam.
@ Paul vander Klay Where did you find that quote from Augustine? In what context? It is the central theme of Dante’s work. Desire, of the stars, literally, drawn by the brightness, that which attracts, so we can see. Without stars the ancients couldn’t navigate.
@@thesecondlawandthetowerhou6026 It's a famous quote from The Confessions: "You have made us for Yourself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it rests in You."
If truth is all over the place, can one find it (potentially even greater one's, at least more suitable for other ancestries) outside Christian lineages?
During the live BBC broadcast of Queen Elizabeth's funeral, a female bishop was interviewed. She was being included in the programme as a sign of the church adapting to modern times. One of the first stories she told after she was introduced on the broadcast was that when she was appointed in the church she became the first bishop in our English history to not kiss the Bible during the ceremony. She didn't kiss the Bible because she was wearing lipstick. She told this story with glee and a hint of pride as if it was a significant boon for Christianity and a huge step forward. I found it terrifying. I could hardly believe it.
@@jcivilis533 imagine of your favorite rock band started wearing suits and doing slow love jams. Suits and love songs aren’t terrifying in themselves, but you can tell your culture and your community are being compromised. Then all your other favorite bands start doing it. The rappers are all white nerdy guys rapping about bingo club, your dad starts bringing people over for drum circles… It’s not good when your way of life is subverted, man.
That incident tells you something about the corruption in the British Anglican church. Thomas Merton said Anglicanism was a class religion, married to the materialism of the British upper classes.
I understand that as men, it is pertinent for you to talk about the crisis in masculinity. I assure you, though, there is also a crisis in femininity. I would love to see more women trying to address this issue the way men have been.
Id say it trickles down from the crisis in masculinity. If men start choosing more virtuous women, Godly women, I think there would be a shift in the way women act and choose men also. Women would have to change themselves to be worthy for a man who has changed himself to be worthy for God first and her. It all starts with men id argue.
@@anonymoushd5325 agree, it started by subversion so it will require men to bring the light back to illuminate the truth. It’s just like Jonathan said the darker it gets, the more light stands out and illuminates.
Women only have male role models to follow. Motherhood, feeding families, keeping families healthy and clean -- all need to be recognized as *the* most important work. Support of single mothers and other "widows" by the community, as proscribed by the church, not by the state. Do not shame single mothers and women will not abort. Etc. When women are fully supported by men, there will be no competition with men. The crisis for women is just as bad as it is for men currently and is about to get much worse, as rates of single motherhood increase and disdain for strong women and equality, ie feminism, becomes the norm in conservative circles. We predict a vast increase in the percentage of educated working women, while men are dropping out of the workforce and marraige. Thank You to all who imitate St Joseph and support the ladies, young and especially old!
Yeah there aren't a lot of women in these spaces addressing such issues, and I think it's because of the doctrine of feminism that makes any discussion on "femininity" very difficult to take place. I highly recommend Edith Stein's Essays on Women. She was a philosopher, a highly educated Jewish woman, who converted to catholicism and became a nun and was later killed in a concentration camp. She advocates for women to follow the Mother of God, Mary, who in our tradition is often portrayed as stepping on the head of Satan. A strong woman of virtue, but is so humble that she said to God without question "let it be done to me according to Your will". I also want to add that we have a crisis of religious vocations in the Church, and we need our spiritual mothers to guide us women.
26:23 I had this answer come to me when my daughter asked why women aren't in the altar during liturgy. Women don't enter into the tabernacle because they are the tabernacle. A "symbolic collapse" is a very succinct way to put it, because it's more than the expression, it's what it creates in reality.
Hi Eamon, I enjoyed the discussion, but as a protestant I got a bit lost during this bit as we dont really have this symbolism -thought you could maybe shed some light! Is father Jacobse saying that if a woman holds the chalice there is symbolic collapse because Jesus was born from Mary, so would Mary accidentally become the focus? When you say women are the tabernacle, is this because women host life in their body?
@@sarahlawson71 it’s like a never ending series of nested dolls in a sense. Spiral pattern downwards. It’s like saying that the primary purpose of a cup is to hold more cups. It has lost its primary purpose. The masculine part is the meaning, the feminine is the matter, so the right pattern is the Meaning organizing the Matter into a kind of unity, and the Matter simultaneously giving itself up to fill the “blueprints” of Meaning. So when you ask the question “what matters?”, it is like the earth (matter) calling up to the heavens for organization into a unity, asking for blueprints essentially. But if you ask the same question and the earth answers “matter matters” it becomes a constant cycle of asking and getting a (technically) meaningless answer. i.e. “What matters?” “Matter matters” “What’s matter?” “Matter” It just collapses in on itself This is how I understand it so far, but anyone feel free to correct me
@@charlesbronson8112 Thanks for that answer, thats been really helpful! I think the symbolism may have been less obvious to me initially, as we normally still have male priests in protestant churches, so the collapse maybe wasnt there in my experience. Its a really interesting way to look at the eucharist
Regarding the frowning on women becoming priests: is the reason that women in the priesthood seems to correspond with a revolutionary overreach because of the fact that when women overreach, they tend to be able to count on men to take the blow for them and suffer the consequences of women's actions? In other words, a woman is necessarily more likely to be incautious because she can rely on having a man to hide behind if she screws up?
The Father said it's a desacralisation of Christian cultural categories. If a woman expects a man to take a blow for her at least she is being within her gender's attributes. (It's stupidity but it's feminine stupidity). Masculinised women in priesthood are not within their feminine attributes anymore. They are pushing out the men to take the leading role for the church.
Protect and provide. The former has been more forgotten. My dad grew up in the West of Ireland 90 years ago and he really understood the role of protector for a man. What a gift!
@the first shall be last Being protected as a young girl by a loving father also prevents a girl from looking for love in all the wrong places. I wish every young girl could have had the childhood I did. It was such a blessing! How I miss my parents!
Watching modernity's effect on my people's (Chinese), as manifest in my own parents, this is a two way street. Absent tethering to the One that is the Source of the dualities, men can only protect if women nourish, even as women are too anxious and self absorbed to nourish if men do not step up to protection and guardianship. At least for my people's, this mutual relationship depended on loyalty to the roots of our own traditions. There might be an approach to Christianity that enhances rather than attempts to replace that, but it is not the common one as far as I have seen. Hence Asian Christian men as incurable fawning people (and wife) pleasers is much more common in the West than the same as able protectors.
@@vivienneb6199 Certainly. But above all their own vanity and repressed or poorly kept sense of vengeance. A man worthy of such guardianship has achieved that for himself at the very least, lest triggering occur from triggering, round and round until divorce or worse.
@@vivienneb6199 Protection from the consequences of acting out a lost Sacred Hospitality transmission (woman to woman) too is a big one. That's an area where my wife flourishes now, and finds deep feminine companionship under.
Men protect, provide, AND DIRECT. Don't ever forget that last one; because without it, you're a slave. Responsibility requires that you have authority (direction).
Agreed as well. This is something I’ve woken up to recently as I’d been letting my wife steer the ship for the better part of our marriage, and it’s not a good situation. Women don’t really want to steer unless they have to. Wrestling the wheel from her is the first battle, because when you let things slide as long as I did you don’t get to just wake up and assume control. I was basically the drunk captain, passed out in the corner.
@@AnaBrigidaGomez Authority is earned simply by taking on responsibility, because that implies accountability; and no one can be held accountable unless they had authority in the first place. Responsibility and authority should never be decoupled from each other. That's why trying to deny men authority while shaming them into keeping responsibilities (as women often do while simultaneously evading responsibility) is probably the best way to demotivate all men and boys. It creates a deeply non-equitable relationship between the sexes.
I'm a young man and went through this very process. Still am going through it. It was a slow process but it did indeed lead me to Christ. My local culture is extremely secular so it felt like I were a bit of a bizarre one-off. It's somewhat comforting to know that there are so many other men like me and that God is working for them too. It gives me renewed hope that He will indeed bring rescue to the people around me.
St Joseph is the best example of masculinity: obey God in all things, quietly support, nurture and protect your family. God gave away Eve on her wedding day because He trusted Adam to to do all those things. Adam didn't protect Eve against the devil, he stood by and eventually also participated. God entrusted Our Lady. and His Son to St Joseph and he didn't let her or God down.
I completely agree with Fr. Jacobse about culture. We as christians need to focus on christianizing culture, just like Christ Himself, the Apostles, martyrs and all saits did. Culture is our realm, not politics. The best way to do that is by theosis, by our own personal example.
Materialism and the sexual revolution going hand in hand because it's the only thing that can bring mind, body, and soul together but in a distorted way was so simple and mind blowing.
On the topic of the male priesthood, from what I understood universally is that the feminine receives while the masculines gives. The soul is feminine in relation to God because He gives us His Spirit which we receive. The priest is the administer of the sacraments, which are the physical (material) manifestations of God's invisible (spiritual) grace. Even more so, the priest gives us the Blessed Sacrament. Thus the priesthood is inherently masculine because the priest stands in the figure of Christ, and gives us the Body and Blood of Christ in the eucharist.
The introduction by Father Hans Jacobse on the Saint Paisios Brotherhood is profoundly moving and true. It has an epic quality to it and it doesn’t dodge the pitfalls and the sorrows of wasted lives and deaths. This is the answer to the modern crisis.
Listening to this reminds me of hearing Richard Rohr talk about the importance of experiencing transformation through a relationship with christ before trying to go out and solve problems in the world because if you try to solve problems without the experience of transformation you just make new slightly different problems instead of being an agent for healing. This was a great discussion to listen to and the things that have improved in my life in recent years are the fruit that for me confirms and is confirmed by what you talked about.
Feminism managed to capture women and the modern age because of the excesses of toxic patriarchy so I'm glad to see someone acknowledging that if you address them and give them the guidance to be positive masculine men the women will follow. I do feel that we should have male exclusive spaces and female exclusive spaces but when dealing with issues that affect both genders mixed spaces are still required. I do disagree with the idea that we cannot have male priests, we should be able to create a role for leading the ceremonies and rituals that doesn't usurp the male role and can also bring the balance symbolism, because otherwise women with the gift of leadership will still not join into the churches and will continue to successfully undermine religion that is a net loss that will not solve the problem. But that is a problem that will take a while to sort out once we agree we cannot shun women with those gifts from the hierarchy. Baby steps.
Excellent conversation! Thank you! The equivocation of egalitarianism is now decades old and the effects evident. Moving to Canada I could not make a circle of male friends in the spirit of brotherhood if not under the suspicion of being homosexual. Individualism and egalitarianism have set the cultural environment for the proliferation of genders and caricatures of human beings. A reference to the community has been lost in the process and petty consumerism has become a self-identifier. In fact, there're so many choices that the undermining of the psychological wellbeing of boys and girls only add to their confusion towards seeing the "caricatures" of themselves as valid options. Good role models are scarce. This not only is a danger for the soul but for society. It is evident to me that at least for four generations a matriarchy has been developed to a point where masculine fatherly figure are almost non-existent. For me, "machismo" is one of the pieces of evidence by which the current matriarchy has created its parasitical expression in the absence of masculine men.
I love the whole conversation so much I've listened to it twice through now. I was struck when Fr. Hans was was speaking about the body and blood and their origins in Mary. As a catechumen this was so edifying for me in that the transfiguration of the world, of matter, became less something I've read and idealized, but that in which I will one day fully and physically participate . Thank you so much for this wonderful discussion and God bless you both!
Gotta have brotherhood first, then you can have accountability. Love is the foundation of brotherhood. Legalism can easily become the foundation of accountability. Just my perspective.
What a wonderful discussion! I am an older woman gifted with a wonderful husband of 40+ years, a son and a daughter. My heart especially hurts for the young men in this age, a time when their special qualities have been ignored...and even dismissed or mocked. I pray heartily that your ministries will grow under God's loving care.
Thanks Jonathan to do this. Jordan Peterson was a bridge that allowed me to get from atheist, scientist and lost to reconnect and see a bit of the value of our tradition. To me you are another bridge that help me get furter and reconnect. I am hoping to find a community of like minded people and maybe start a brotherhood. I went back to a catholic church, while some of the things are there, it’s so meek, devoid of force. I feel that the catholics are not connecting to the need we have for strong masculinity.
@@dannyjquinn880 I am in Québec, in eastern township, close to where Jonathan was living before. I am thinking we should build a community of like minded people, to discuss, progress together on our journey and hopefully meet in the real world. I feel so alone in those subjects, the christians don’t know what I am talking about, almost all my friends are left leaning that will clam up at the first signs of religion. I would have done the same a few years ago.
I’ve been following Jonathan for a couple months now.. My catechism started through, exorcism and the intercession of the Saints However I have never seen one of Jonathan’s Conversations so directly Apply to the path I’m on.. this truly feels like a validation and sign from the creator And I’m so grateful to have seen it. The spiritual warfare aspect to this is so real
How about the fact that the traits that make men and women desirable have flipped? Women want men do be mysterious or hidden, or pose a problem for them to answer, which is feminine. And men want women to show it all, which is masculine. Its seems like a weird sexual perversion of narcissism.
I partially agree about the women in clergy argument. They do seem to harbor more sexual confusion within their congregation. However, what is the reason for what is happening with the Catholic priests and their homosexual molestation…wouldn’t this too be an issue of sexual confusion?
A few months ago, I watched a sermon Fr Jacobse gave where he discussed this very issue from an experience he had visiting Sweden (or maybe Norway). I had forgotten the title of the video or his name, but thanks to this video just re-discovered him. God bless you both.
@@imalamboman12 he’s a controversial dude in the “man-o-sphere.” All about masculinity. Says he’s Eastern Orthodox but also promoted a lot of non-Christian actions such as having multiple partners. Kinda occupies the Fool role in many ways.
Jonathan, are you familiar with Knowland Knows on youtube? He was fired from Eton college for making a video called "the patriarchy paradox". Please consider interviewing him. He's a very masculine Catholic, advocating tradition and monogamy and marriage. Thank you.
I stopped at 19 minutes. Indeed, the best counselors are those who have lived through the issue and can help lead others through. Not wanting to be controversial at all, we need female counselors in the Church. My opinion: one reason women act like men is because we almost only have male role models and males coaching us. Looking forward to hearing the rest; thank you for producing.
I agree women with the gift of leadership need a space or else they will stay out of the church where they can be leaders elsewhere. Also men spent centuries using femineity as an excuse to put women down and abuse them, so they got their wish women that wanted to be validated and protected became what men really valued. What did they expect? Maybe next time around they will accept that women are different and wonderful instead of propping themselves up stepping over our wombs.
I think the idea expressed in the beginning of the video is if things like masculinity are not expressed in a healthy way they they become repressed and express themselves in morbid or extreme forms.
Is there any solid symbolism in making your bed.? I was thinking how in darkness is chaos, and in the darkness our beds will become messy, and how we should be making our beds each morning, creating order out of chaotic darkness.
Hi Jonathan, I just wanted to let you know that Jay Dyer, David Erhan, and other Orthodox Christian apologists, are going to be analysing the recent discussion that was had between yourself, Jordan Peterson, and Mohammed Hijab. Perhaps you can join/listen in.
Suggest that you host Muslim guests such as: Dr.Tahir Wyatt, Sheikh Mohammad Tarawneh, Sheikh Abdur Rahman Hassan, Sheikh Abdul Rahman Al-Dimashqieh. I would also like you to make debates between Muslims and Christians to arrive at one word, such as a debate between Bishop Barron and Sheikh Othman bin Al-Farouq. I am curious as to why religious scholars left their religion to choose another religion such as Rabbi Mort or Dr.Jerald Dirks, Samuel Sharcher and Priest Idris Tawfik
Great conversation! Trying to understand Fr. description of why women are symbolically incompatible as pastor. Is it because male priests can only act as a conduit for the life giving force of Christ, whereas a woman's personal biological creative force contaminates, or at least distracts, from this?
I am a Roman Catholic trying to learn more about Eastern Orthodox spirituality. Can anyone recommend a good book for me? I am hoping for something that describes positively rather than arguing with the Western viewpoint, and more theology than history.
I can see the female priests are a problem but I don't understand how they lead to revolutionary thinking. Is it because the very act of instituting female priests is revolutionary? Was this not also the case with abolition of slavery? I've been lied to so much by the world so maybe that was a bad thing too.
On some level, I do think that this conversation is an interesting parallel to the Red Pill sphere (the intersexual dynamics one). I have seen Jonathan mention some of the content of Roosh V. I do think this conversation is a good introduction to the argument. But there needs be some development. I hear of many people in this corner of the internet find these conversations extremely meaningful. I do think we should venture some more in this territory.
Hmm our ideas about masculinity are pretty much influenced by the artistic image of the caveman. This image can never be a full expression of masculinity...
@@johannes6741 what do you mean? I've heard the red pill guys try to justify their patterns by using evolutionary psychology and caveman analogies. Like this: "caveman that did protect cavewomen where more successful, therefore you should protect (cave)women. But also, man is in command." I do find these analogies weak. The patterns embodied by Christ and his disciples are more nuanced, and powerful. Self sacrifice on the cross is a far more powerful image than caveman being "moral". Is that what you intend?
Father Hans’ ministry is such a wonderful blessing and models Discipleship so well. That said, when they delved into cultural observations they pretty quickly went from beautiful church theological foundations to ungrounded speculation. As an example, they asserted the idea that extreme gender role representations were the result of “parasitic” responses to feminist attempts to break down gender roles?!? It seems far more likely that the main voice of feminist countering, that of the American church, overreacted in pushing extreme views that real men grunt and watch football while their wives are barefoot on the kitchen… Unfortunately, that lacks a level of humility of seeing how your views taken too far are the harm you are critiquing in the world. It’s not so simple as just blaming everything that you dislike in the world on some nameless “other“, rather than on your own shortcomings.
My least favorite topic in this corner, which isn't to say it's not important, but I just see it consistently framed badly: which is to say not framed by looking at Christ, and not understanding the relationship between identity and difference in a Christological way. I will give it a listen and see how Johnathan does.
24:10 God is truth. Man is made in the image of God (not woman). Man is considered the bride of Christ. Hence, in relation to God, man's masculinity is considered feminine (bride) as much as women is feminine on earth compared to man.
"Apologetics" is a key problem. Saying "please" when not in a state of imploring, saying "sorry" when not sincere in repentance, and "thanks" when not in gratitude, are all signs of people pleasing or fawning. This is an impediment for owning ones essence in the West and Westernised, for men and women. Perfectionism and repressed rage/vengeance seem to go hand in hand with this fawning. A peculiarly Western lineage problem, of fawning Dr Jekyll and out of control tyrannical Mr Hyde, spread everywhere now to varying degrees since colonialism.
Ehh I think we need more nuance than that to be honest... We can't fit everyone in the same box no matter how proud we are at the attempt. Some people want things that others don't. Traits, tastes, and attractions being common does not make them objective requirements for everyone.
I say as a Protestant that Jesus came to died to offer himself as a sacrifice for the wrath of God against sin and to defeat Satan, I love he said that because it’s right in the gospels Jesus says “I saw Satan fall like lightning .” Also the end time theology that took over after the Civil War (premillennialism) confused the church on a massive scale. They see the world as waiting for Revelation to happen which is completely incorrect. But because of this they don’t see Satan as defeated and the Kingdom of God being the rock taking over the earth (Psalms 2 )
Premillennialism is the only thing that makes sense, sorry to say, but there has not been a 1000 year reign of Jesus, we are waiting for revelations, when did it occur exactly? Satan is defeated? Buddy have you been paying attention? You call this defeated? How about 1/3 of the earth dying? When did that happen? There is absolutely nothing to suggest postmillennialism/amillennialism is anything other than nonsense. I'd even argue infact your comment alone suggest that Satan isn't defeated as your comment can be seen only as deception. It's true that we've already won, thanks to Jesus, but that is NOT the same thing as Satan being defeated.
Very important aspects indeed, but when they arrive at the freakishness of current culture, I'd say: "First take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." I wished they would familarize with the work of David Deida, perhaps also Ken Wilber since this conversation is completely missing the notion that what is needed is not to restore the old structure (what Jacobse hopes for), but a development/syntheses to a higher order.
It's incredible how vague "being a man" is here. I take Augustine, Gregory the Theologian, and Basil the Great as my models. Aquinas and Anselm, too. If the ordinary American viewer of this interview saw any of these men, they would be sure to call them effeminate. The problem with these sorts of videos from people like Pageu and Peterson is that a certain western European vision of masculinity sneaks in, one that would call the Church Fathers or men in other periods "effeminate." The definition of what a man here is is so general that it applies to all human beings. Defining ones identity and purpose is NOT "masculinity." If it is, then all people need to be masculine. It's gross to suggest this is masculinity.
@@Joefrenomics I mean all of these young men going to orthodox churches by discovering Internet personalities, memes etc. would they have ever checked out an Orthodox Church just cause they saw it by their house? ua-cam.com/video/62eXTnaAZ6w/v-deo.html There’s thousands of these memes I’m not sure how you haven’t seen them.
15:00 I spent the first 29 years of my life (less adolescence) addicted to pornography. I was on a lonely and lifeless path. After hearing this part, I had to stop building the crib for my newborn twins to say that it was engaging with the prayers of the Church, orienting my life to something higher, that freed me from pornography some 6 years ago. I've never looked again after experiencing the Lord while praying St Ephrem's Prayer to the Holy Spirit. Life has been fruitful (with its obvious challenges) since. Marriage, three beautiful children, and on the journey into the Church.
Praise God for your freedom, please pray for mine.
Wow, that is very impressive. Religion CAN bring great wonders!
Gosh thank you for sharing. That helps this 25 year old on a similar journey. I can see the direction of the top of the mountain.
@@vivienneb6199 Me too. That's sure make life easier.
I'm somewhat younger than you and this is a very inspiring post when I feel lost, God bless you
“Men have to be men so woman can be women”. I am a woman who 100% agrees with that. It’s been true in my own life. My husband is a good spiritual leader as well as protecting and providing for his family. This frees me to focus on taking care of him and our kids. It’s also a great example for our children to see male and female working together towards the same goals in harmony. Instead of the The current culture of competition between the sexes. That only serves to break down family and society. Great talk!
Sounds like a submissive tradwife fetish
That's great, and I'm glad that works out for you guys. We have something similar going on here with our homeschool family. There is a caveat though.
Now this may be just in regards to the circles I move in of course, but here it is: I have never seen this strength of manhood manifest in a situation where the man's ancestral background is Muslim, Confucian or Dharmic, but he tries to lead the family as a Christian and a Westerner. All too often these men are incurable people pleasers trying to fit in. I have seen it in non-Muslim ancestry men that turn to Islam though, where that embrace helps them be more rooted in that ancestry (like I became more Chinese by doing so for eg).
This isn't about saying "Islam is best" or anything so crude and sectarian. It is about saying loyalty to roots might be vital for this masculinity to show up.
Salaam.
"Foundation of all desire is the desire for God". I learned that from Augustine. The funny thing about truth is that it's all over the place. :)
@ Paul vander Klay Where did you find that quote from Augustine? In what context? It is the central theme of Dante’s work. Desire, of the stars, literally, drawn by the brightness, that which attracts, so we can see. Without stars the ancients couldn’t navigate.
@@thesecondlawandthetowerhou6026 It's a famous quote from The Confessions: "You have made us for Yourself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it rests in You."
If truth is all over the place, can one find it (potentially even greater one's, at least more suitable for other ancestries) outside Christian lineages?
Cant wait for Pageau to hit the gym and blast "1 Hour of Chad Orthodox Chants to Redeem Your Soul" on his headphones
During the live BBC broadcast of Queen Elizabeth's funeral, a female bishop was interviewed. She was being included in the programme as a sign of the church adapting to modern times. One of the first stories she told after she was introduced on the broadcast was that when she was appointed in the church she became the first bishop in our English history to not kiss the Bible during the ceremony. She didn't kiss the Bible because she was wearing lipstick. She told this story with glee and a hint of pride as if it was a significant boon for Christianity and a huge step forward. I found it terrifying. I could hardly believe it.
Basically Eve eating the apple but by omission
How terrifying a woman not kissing a bible. Im nearly dying of this news rn
@@jcivilis533 this, but unironically.
@@jcivilis533 imagine of your favorite rock band started wearing suits and doing slow love jams. Suits and love songs aren’t terrifying in themselves, but you can tell your culture and your community are being compromised. Then all your other favorite bands start doing it. The rappers are all white nerdy guys rapping about bingo club, your dad starts bringing people over for drum circles… It’s not good when your way of life is subverted, man.
That incident tells you something about the corruption in the British Anglican church. Thomas Merton said Anglicanism was a class religion, married to the materialism of the British upper classes.
I understand that as men, it is pertinent for you to talk about the crisis in masculinity. I assure you, though, there is also a crisis in femininity. I would love to see more women trying to address this issue the way men have been.
Id say it trickles down from the crisis in masculinity. If men start choosing more virtuous women, Godly women, I think there would be a shift in the way women act and choose men also. Women would have to change themselves to be worthy for a man who has changed himself to be worthy for God first and her. It all starts with men id argue.
@@anonymoushd5325 agree, it started by subversion so it will require men to bring the light back to illuminate the truth. It’s just like Jonathan said the darker it gets, the more light stands out and illuminates.
I agree. Trying to women these days is heartbreaking. They are so sad and confused and no one is talking about it.
Women only have male role models to follow. Motherhood, feeding families, keeping families healthy and clean -- all need to be recognized as *the* most important work. Support of single mothers and other "widows" by the community, as proscribed by the church, not by the state. Do not shame single mothers and women will not abort. Etc. When women are fully supported by men, there will be no competition with men. The crisis for women is just as bad as it is for men currently and is about to get much worse, as rates of single motherhood increase and disdain for strong women and equality, ie feminism, becomes the norm in conservative circles. We predict a vast increase in the percentage of educated working women, while men are dropping out of the workforce and marraige. Thank You to all who imitate St Joseph and support the ladies, young and especially old!
Yeah there aren't a lot of women in these spaces addressing such issues, and I think it's because of the doctrine of feminism that makes any discussion on "femininity" very difficult to take place.
I highly recommend Edith Stein's Essays on Women. She was a philosopher, a highly educated Jewish woman, who converted to catholicism and became a nun and was later killed in a concentration camp. She advocates for women to follow the Mother of God, Mary, who in our tradition is often portrayed as stepping on the head of Satan. A strong woman of virtue, but is so humble that she said to God without question "let it be done to me according to Your will".
I also want to add that we have a crisis of religious vocations in the Church, and we need our spiritual mothers to guide us women.
Happy All Saints day, may we all be saints!
God bless
26:23 I had this answer come to me when my daughter asked why women aren't in the altar during liturgy. Women don't enter into the tabernacle because they are the tabernacle. A "symbolic collapse" is a very succinct way to put it, because it's more than the expression, it's what it creates in reality.
Hi Eamon, I enjoyed the discussion, but as a protestant I got a bit lost during this bit as we dont really have this symbolism -thought you could maybe shed some light! Is father Jacobse saying that if a woman holds the chalice there is symbolic collapse because Jesus was born from Mary, so would Mary accidentally become the focus? When you say women are the tabernacle, is this because women host life in their body?
@@sarahlawson71 it’s like a never ending series of nested dolls in a sense. Spiral pattern downwards. It’s like saying that the primary purpose of a cup is to hold more cups. It has lost its primary purpose.
The masculine part is the meaning, the feminine is the matter, so the right pattern is the Meaning organizing the Matter into a kind of unity, and the Matter simultaneously giving itself up to fill the “blueprints” of Meaning. So when you ask the question “what matters?”, it is like the earth (matter) calling up to the heavens for organization into a unity, asking for blueprints essentially. But if you ask the same question and the earth answers “matter matters” it becomes a constant cycle of asking and getting a (technically) meaningless answer. i.e.
“What matters?”
“Matter matters”
“What’s matter?”
“Matter”
It just collapses in on itself
This is how I understand it so far, but anyone feel free to correct me
@@charlesbronson8112 Thanks for that answer, thats been really helpful! I think the symbolism may have been less obvious to me initially, as we normally still have male priests in protestant churches, so the collapse maybe wasnt there in my experience. Its a really interesting way to look at the eucharist
Sounds nice. Tabernacle is a guy thing. Your daughter needs a sacred space of her own.
Regarding the frowning on women becoming priests: is the reason that women in the priesthood seems to correspond with a revolutionary overreach because of the fact that when women overreach, they tend to be able to count on men to take the blow for them and suffer the consequences of women's actions?
In other words, a woman is necessarily more likely to be incautious because she can rely on having a man to hide behind if she screws up?
The Father said it's a desacralisation of Christian cultural categories.
If a woman expects a man to take a blow for her at least she is being within her gender's attributes. (It's stupidity but it's feminine stupidity).
Masculinised women in priesthood are not within their feminine attributes anymore. They are pushing out the men to take the leading role for the church.
Protect and provide. The former has been more forgotten. My dad grew up in the West of Ireland 90 years ago and he really understood the role of protector for a man. What a gift!
@the first shall be last Being protected as a young girl by a loving father also prevents a girl from looking for love in all the wrong places. I wish every young girl could have had the childhood I did. It was such a blessing! How I miss my parents!
Watching modernity's effect on my people's (Chinese), as manifest in my own parents, this is a two way street. Absent tethering to the One that is the Source of the dualities, men can only protect if women nourish, even as women are too anxious and self absorbed to nourish if men do not step up to protection and guardianship.
At least for my people's, this mutual relationship depended on loyalty to the roots of our own traditions. There might be an approach to Christianity that enhances rather than attempts to replace that, but it is not the common one as far as I have seen. Hence Asian Christian men as incurable fawning people (and wife) pleasers is much more common in the West than the same as able protectors.
@@vivienneb6199 Certainly. But above all their own vanity and repressed or poorly kept sense of vengeance.
A man worthy of such guardianship has achieved that for himself at the very least, lest triggering occur from triggering, round and round until divorce or worse.
@@vivienneb6199 Protection from the consequences of acting out a lost Sacred Hospitality transmission (woman to woman) too is a big one. That's an area where my wife flourishes now, and finds deep feminine companionship under.
Men protect, provide, AND DIRECT. Don't ever forget that last one; because without it, you're a slave. Responsibility requires that you have authority (direction).
Agreed as well. This is something I’ve woken up to recently as I’d been letting my wife steer the ship for the better part of our marriage, and it’s not a good situation. Women don’t really want to steer unless they have to.
Wrestling the wheel from her is the first battle, because when you let things slide as long as I did you don’t get to just wake up and assume control. I was basically the drunk captain, passed out in the corner.
@@fakename3208 Have you discussed this situation with her so far? -Best of luck with changing your marriage and life!
But authority has to be earned. A rotten head will destroy the whole body.
@@AnaBrigidaGomez Authority is earned simply by taking on responsibility, because that implies accountability; and no one can be held accountable unless they had authority in the first place. Responsibility and authority should never be decoupled from each other. That's why trying to deny men authority while shaming them into keeping responsibilities (as women often do while simultaneously evading responsibility) is probably the best way to demotivate all men and boys. It creates a deeply non-equitable relationship between the sexes.
@@filthycasual9381 IME men feel entitled to authority just by virtue of being men without expecting to be accountable. Hence why I said.
I'm a young man and went through this very process. Still am going through it. It was a slow process but it did indeed lead me to Christ. My local culture is extremely secular so it felt like I were a bit of a bizarre one-off. It's somewhat comforting to know that there are so many other men like me and that God is working for them too. It gives me renewed hope that He will indeed bring rescue to the people around me.
St Joseph is the best example of masculinity: obey God in all things, quietly support, nurture and protect your family. God gave away Eve on her wedding day because He trusted Adam to to do all those things. Adam didn't protect Eve against the devil, he stood by and eventually also participated. God entrusted Our Lady. and His Son to St Joseph and he didn't let her or God down.
I completely agree with Fr. Jacobse about culture. We as christians need to focus on christianizing culture, just like Christ Himself, the Apostles, martyrs and all saits did. Culture is our realm, not politics. The best way to do that is by theosis, by our own personal example.
This entire talk was said so perfectly. Thank you men for your hard work and dedication.
That has to be the best video on masculinity i have ever seen! 👍🏻 Thats no understatement! God bless you! ☦️
Materialism and the sexual revolution going hand in hand because it's the only thing that can bring mind, body, and soul together but in a distorted way was so simple and mind blowing.
"Eve no, not again!"😂
She's listening you know 👀🙏
That was genuinely funny
Does anyone have the video or article reference for this? I'd really like to be able to reference it directly.
The teaser worked. I'm IN!
"Men want feminine women. Women want masculine men." - Brilliant! Tell me more 😅
On the topic of the male priesthood, from what I understood universally is that the feminine receives while the masculines gives. The soul is feminine in relation to God because He gives us His Spirit which we receive. The priest is the administer of the sacraments, which are the physical (material) manifestations of God's invisible (spiritual) grace. Even more so, the priest gives us the Blessed Sacrament. Thus the priesthood is inherently masculine because the priest stands in the figure of Christ, and gives us the Body and Blood of Christ in the eucharist.
The introduction by Father Hans Jacobse on the Saint Paisios Brotherhood is profoundly moving and true. It has an epic quality to it and it doesn’t dodge the pitfalls and the sorrows of wasted lives and deaths. This is the answer to the modern crisis.
Listening to this reminds me of hearing Richard Rohr talk about the importance of experiencing transformation through a relationship with christ before trying to go out and solve problems in the world because if you try to solve problems without the experience of transformation you just make new slightly different problems instead of being an agent for healing.
This was a great discussion to listen to and the things that have improved in my life in recent years are the fruit that for me confirms and is confirmed by what you talked about.
Feminism managed to capture women and the modern age because of the excesses of toxic patriarchy so I'm glad to see someone acknowledging that if you address them and give them the guidance to be positive masculine men the women will follow. I do feel that we should have male exclusive spaces and female exclusive spaces but when dealing with issues that affect both genders mixed spaces are still required. I do disagree with the idea that we cannot have male priests, we should be able to create a role for leading the ceremonies and rituals that doesn't usurp the male role and can also bring the balance symbolism, because otherwise women with the gift of leadership will still not join into the churches and will continue to successfully undermine religion that is a net loss that will not solve the problem. But that is a problem that will take a while to sort out once we agree we cannot shun women with those gifts from the hierarchy. Baby steps.
“God, what do you want me to do?” 🔥
I was seeking for the right prayer. Thanks to you, I believe I have found the one that I was seeking. ❤
Excellent conversation! Thank you! The equivocation of egalitarianism is now decades old and the effects evident. Moving to Canada I could not make a circle of male friends in the spirit of brotherhood if not under the suspicion of being homosexual.
Individualism and egalitarianism have set the cultural environment for the proliferation of genders and caricatures of human beings.
A reference to the community has been lost in the process and petty consumerism has become a self-identifier. In fact, there're so many choices that the undermining of the psychological wellbeing of boys and girls only add to their confusion towards seeing the "caricatures" of themselves as valid options. Good role models are scarce.
This not only is a danger for the soul but for society. It is evident to me that at least for four generations a matriarchy has been developed to a point where masculine fatherly figure are almost non-existent. For me, "machismo" is one of the pieces of evidence by which the current matriarchy has created its parasitical expression in the absence of masculine men.
I needed to hear this. Great listen while I'm at the gym.
It is wonderful to see someone to grow into their particularity! To become the unique human that God created him or her to be.
I love the whole conversation so much I've listened to it twice through now. I was struck when Fr. Hans was was speaking about the body and blood and their origins in Mary. As a catechumen this was so edifying for me in that the transfiguration of the world, of matter, became less something I've read and idealized, but that in which I will one day fully and physically participate . Thank you so much for this wonderful discussion and God bless you both!
Well this is a timely topic. Thank you, Jonathan and Father Jacobse.
Before this talk I thought I want something akin to creative or philosophical group and now I recognize this desire as desire for brotherhood
Gotta have brotherhood first, then you can have accountability. Love is the foundation of brotherhood. Legalism can easily become the foundation of accountability. Just my perspective.
What a wonderful discussion! I am an older woman gifted with a wonderful husband of 40+ years, a son and a daughter. My heart especially hurts for the young men in this age, a time when their special qualities have been ignored...and even dismissed or mocked. I pray heartily that your ministries will grow under God's loving care.
My favourite yet. I pray for my sons. This filled me with hope. Xx
Thanks Jonathan to do this.
Jordan Peterson was a bridge that allowed me to get from atheist, scientist and lost to reconnect and see a bit of the value of our tradition.
To me you are another bridge that help me get furter and reconnect.
I am hoping to find a community of like minded people and maybe start a brotherhood.
I went back to a catholic church, while some of the things are there, it’s so meek, devoid of force.
I feel that the catholics are not connecting to the need we have for strong masculinity.
Me too, i think there are many of us. What country do you live in?
@@dannyjquinn880 I am in Québec, in eastern township, close to where Jonathan was living before.
I am thinking we should build a community of like minded people, to discuss, progress together on our journey and hopefully meet in the real world.
I feel so alone in those subjects, the christians don’t know what I am talking about, almost all my friends are left leaning that will clam up at the first signs of religion.
I would have done the same a few years ago.
I’ve been following Jonathan for a couple months now..
My catechism started through, exorcism and the intercession of the Saints
However I have never seen one of Jonathan’s Conversations so directly Apply to the path I’m on.. this truly feels like a validation and sign from the creator And I’m so grateful to have seen it.
The spiritual warfare aspect to this is so real
why 7.7k views only. this needs to be 4 billion!
How about the fact that the traits that make men and women desirable have flipped?
Women want men do be mysterious or hidden, or pose a problem for them to answer, which is feminine.
And men want women to show it all, which is masculine.
Its seems like a weird sexual perversion of narcissism.
As Jonathan's would say, the world is upside down 🙃🤡
Men need to be men so that women can be women 💞 Proud wife and mama here couldn't agree more.
I think you missed the wider theological point here
Great conversation as always, and so true!
Thanks for the important work you do. Greetings from Norway
We do need you Jonathan. Thank you.
I live fr Hans. He has helped me so much. Thank you fr and jonathan.
I partially agree about the women in clergy argument. They do seem to harbor more sexual confusion within their congregation. However, what is the reason for what is happening with the Catholic priests and their homosexual molestation…wouldn’t this too be an issue of sexual confusion?
A few months ago, I watched a sermon Fr Jacobse gave where he discussed this very issue from an experience he had visiting Sweden (or maybe Norway). I had forgotten the title of the video or his name, but thanks to this video just re-discovered him. God bless you both.
It was Denmark actually 19:30
Amazing episode. I love this guy.
Why is emasculation most advanced in (former) protestant countries? (Scandinavia, Netherlands, Germany, USA, Uk)
It's the cycle of the fall
Similar to AA recovery!
It works. God is always the answer.
Thanks boys
Am I the only person who wants to see an Andrew Tate, Jonathan Pageau conversation?
@@prboddington 😂
You might be
@@JamecBond I guess I walked into this one 😂
Who is Andrew Tate?
@@imalamboman12 he’s a controversial dude in the “man-o-sphere.” All about masculinity. Says he’s Eastern Orthodox but also promoted a lot of non-Christian actions such as having multiple partners. Kinda occupies the Fool role in many ways.
Thanks
Thank you.
Jonathan, are you familiar with Knowland Knows on youtube? He was fired from Eton college for making a video called "the patriarchy paradox".
Please consider interviewing him. He's a very masculine Catholic, advocating tradition and monogamy and marriage.
Thank you.
More of this please!!!
I stopped at 19 minutes. Indeed, the best counselors are those who have lived through the issue and can help lead others through. Not wanting to be controversial at all, we need female counselors in the Church. My opinion: one reason women act like men is because we almost only have male role models and males coaching us. Looking forward to hearing the rest; thank you for producing.
I agree women with the gift of leadership need a space or else they will stay out of the church where they can be leaders elsewhere. Also men spent centuries using femineity as an excuse to put women down and abuse them, so they got their wish women that wanted to be validated and protected became what men really valued. What did they expect? Maybe next time around they will accept that women are different and wonderful instead of propping themselves up stepping over our wombs.
I think the idea expressed in the beginning of the video is if things like masculinity are not expressed in a healthy way they they become repressed and express themselves in morbid or extreme forms.
Is there any solid symbolism in making your bed.?
I was thinking how in darkness is chaos, and in the darkness our beds will become messy, and how we should be making our beds each morning, creating order out of chaotic darkness.
Thanks for the discussion. Really enjoyed it :)
The Knights of Columbus would be a helpful organization to preserve the role of masculinity in society. I'm a member btw.
Hi Jonathan,
I just wanted to let you know that Jay Dyer, David Erhan, and other Orthodox Christian apologists, are going to be analysing the recent discussion that was had between yourself, Jordan Peterson, and Mohammed Hijab.
Perhaps you can join/listen in.
13:00 never thought of sex like that, material point of transcendence - intended to but a consummation of love
Suggest that you host Muslim guests such as: Dr.Tahir Wyatt, Sheikh Mohammad Tarawneh, Sheikh Abdur Rahman Hassan, Sheikh Abdul Rahman Al-Dimashqieh.
I would also like you to make debates between Muslims and Christians to arrive at one word, such as a debate between Bishop Barron and Sheikh Othman bin Al-Farouq.
I am curious as to why religious scholars left their religion to choose another religion such as Rabbi Mort or Dr.Jerald Dirks, Samuel Sharcher and Priest Idris Tawfik
Great conversation! Trying to understand Fr. description of why women are symbolically incompatible as pastor. Is it because male priests can only act as a conduit for the life giving force of Christ, whereas a woman's personal biological creative force contaminates, or at least distracts, from this?
great!
If anyone in the UK reads this, do you have any idea if anything like this exists in the UK? Where?
I am a Roman Catholic trying to learn more about Eastern Orthodox spirituality. Can anyone recommend a good book for me? I am hoping for something that describes positively rather than arguing with the Western viewpoint, and more theology than history.
Read Saphrony "On Prayer"
@@ProdigalClay Thank you.
I recommend the Bible(sorry it was just too easy)
Orthodoxy must be experienced. Attend liturgy! ☦
I have read the Bible! But of course I should read it again.
I can see the female priests are a problem but I don't understand how they lead to revolutionary thinking.
Is it because the very act of instituting female priests is revolutionary? Was this not also the case with abolition of slavery? I've been lied to so much by the world so maybe that was a bad thing too.
On some level, I do think that this conversation is an interesting parallel to the Red Pill sphere (the intersexual dynamics one). I have seen Jonathan mention some of the content of Roosh V. I do think this conversation is a good introduction to the argument. But there needs be some development. I hear of many people in this corner of the internet find these conversations extremely meaningful. I do think we should venture some more in this territory.
Hmm our ideas about masculinity are pretty much influenced by the artistic image of the caveman. This image can never be a full expression of masculinity...
@@johannes6741 what do you mean? I've heard the red pill guys try to justify their patterns by using evolutionary psychology and caveman analogies. Like this: "caveman that did protect cavewomen where more successful, therefore you should protect (cave)women. But also, man is in command."
I do find these analogies weak. The patterns embodied by Christ and his disciples are more nuanced, and powerful. Self sacrifice on the cross is a far more powerful image than caveman being "moral". Is that what you intend?
Would like to see a video about the 12 lost tribes of Israel with everything going on
If Mike Ehrmantraut were an Orthodox priest.
Hi Jonathan, have you guys thought about creating an app for “The Symbolic World?”
If Jonathan or his parish starts a group in Montreal. Count me in.
36:00 it's a weird world when an orthodox christian like jonathan pageau comes across more liberal and relatable than a scientific tech bro.
10:00 Iron sharpens iron
Father Hans’ ministry is such a wonderful blessing and models Discipleship so well. That said, when they delved into cultural observations they pretty quickly went from beautiful church theological foundations to ungrounded speculation. As an example, they asserted the idea that extreme gender role representations were the result of “parasitic” responses to feminist attempts to break down gender roles?!? It seems far more likely that the main voice of feminist countering, that of the American church, overreacted in pushing extreme views that real men grunt and watch football while their wives are barefoot on the kitchen… Unfortunately, that lacks a level of humility of seeing how your views taken too far are the harm you are critiquing in the world. It’s not so simple as just blaming everything that you dislike in the world on some nameless “other“, rather than on your own shortcomings.
How do i buy a copy of God's Dog?
The meek shall inherit the earth...if that's alright with you.
do an interview with rollo tomassi
My least favorite topic in this corner, which isn't to say it's not important, but I just see it consistently framed badly: which is to say not framed by looking at Christ, and not understanding the relationship between identity and difference in a Christological way. I will give it a listen and see how Johnathan does.
you honor us.
Do you have any video or reading matter that talks about identity and difference you could recommend?
@@JacobSmaby Highly recommend Jordan Daniel Wood's new book on Maximus: The Whole Mystery of Christ.
@@jacquedegatineau9037 I feel shame for you, Jacque de Gatineau. You were our hope!
@@grailcountry You are really tempting me to buy that book you know... :)
Job 15:12((C.E.V.))💯
24:10 God is truth. Man is made in the image of God (not woman). Man is considered the bride of Christ. Hence, in relation to God, man's masculinity is considered feminine (bride) as much as women is feminine on earth compared to man.
"Apologetics" is a key problem. Saying "please" when not in a state of imploring, saying "sorry" when not sincere in repentance, and "thanks" when not in gratitude, are all signs of people pleasing or fawning. This is an impediment for owning ones essence in the West and Westernised, for men and women.
Perfectionism and repressed rage/vengeance seem to go hand in hand with this fawning. A peculiarly Western lineage problem, of fawning Dr Jekyll and out of control tyrannical Mr Hyde, spread everywhere now to varying degrees since colonialism.
Ehh I think we need more nuance than that to be honest... We can't fit everyone in the same box no matter how proud we are at the attempt. Some people want things that others don't. Traits, tastes, and attractions being common does not make them objective requirements for everyone.
Saturn Devours his Children, Christ unravels the Saturnian cube
I hear Matt Walsh is doing another documentary "What is a Man" . iI's a sequel to his documentary "What is a Woman".
When is the new logo and intro gonna be implemented??
Very estuary-like in some ways.
I recognized the parallels as well
Hey Jonathan love ur intro just don't use the white light
I say as a Protestant that Jesus came to died to offer himself as a sacrifice for the wrath of God against sin and to defeat Satan, I love he said that because it’s right in the gospels Jesus says “I saw Satan fall like lightning .” Also the end time theology that took over after the Civil War (premillennialism) confused the church on a massive scale. They see the world as waiting for Revelation to happen which is completely incorrect. But because of this they don’t see Satan as defeated and the Kingdom of God being the rock taking over the earth (Psalms 2 )
Premillennialism is the only thing that makes sense, sorry to say, but there has not been a 1000 year reign of Jesus, we are waiting for revelations, when did it occur exactly? Satan is defeated? Buddy have you been paying attention? You call this defeated? How about 1/3 of the earth dying? When did that happen? There is absolutely nothing to suggest postmillennialism/amillennialism is anything other than nonsense. I'd even argue infact your comment alone suggest that Satan isn't defeated as your comment can be seen only as deception. It's true that we've already won, thanks to Jesus, but that is NOT the same thing as Satan being defeated.
Very important aspects indeed, but when they arrive at the freakishness of current culture, I'd say: "First take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." I wished they would familarize with the work of David Deida, perhaps also Ken Wilber since this conversation is completely missing the notion that what is needed is not to restore the old structure (what Jacobse hopes for), but a development/syntheses to a higher order.
43:30 shots fired at Calvinists!
It's incredible how vague "being a man" is here. I take Augustine, Gregory the Theologian, and Basil the Great as my models. Aquinas and Anselm, too. If the ordinary American viewer of this interview saw any of these men, they would be sure to call them effeminate. The problem with these sorts of videos from people like Pageu and Peterson is that a certain western European vision of masculinity sneaks in, one that would call the Church Fathers or men in other periods "effeminate."
The definition of what a man here is is so general that it applies to all human beings. Defining ones identity and purpose is NOT "masculinity." If it is, then all people need to be masculine. It's gross to suggest this is masculinity.
Why do you call him father? Do you worship false idols?
Idk waa down until he talked about paying money, idk just got a slimy feel to it, whats different from any other self help groups besides being church
+
Is orthodoxy a meme at this point?
What does that mean?
@@Joefrenomics I mean all of these young men going to orthodox churches by discovering Internet personalities, memes etc. would they have ever checked out an Orthodox Church just cause they saw it by their house?
ua-cam.com/video/62eXTnaAZ6w/v-deo.html
There’s thousands of these memes I’m not sure how you haven’t seen them.
Everything is a meme nowadays, the question that should be asked of anything is whether or not it is more than a meme.
First rule of the brotherhood: you don't talk about the brotherhood
@IslamTheReligionOfTruth thanks
indeed . And muslims don't even have to fight. Time is on their side.
The west will collapse like a rotten old house