The proper spiritual way of looking at the world is Orthodoxy. Papism doesn't offer that as it has a platonic view of God that cuts off his uncreated presence in this world due to absolute divine simplicity. Father Stephen & Father Andrew mentioned this on their podcast once. All that cool stuff they talk about is not only void & absent in papism, but rather straight up impossible. All the cool symbolic stuff Jonathan talks about? Guess what...? *Not possible in the "roman catholic" worldview* There is no Divine Council without the Essence/Energy distinction. And if you do acknowledge the Essence/Energy distinction as being true, you admit by default that the West has been wrong about this debate for more than a thousand years at this point which in turn refutes Papism. Become Orthodox, my friend.
This wasn’t fringe to me, I had been listening to “The Bible Project” but more importantly Dr. Michael Heisers book “Unseen Realm” for about 3 years prior. Lord of Spirits podcast was essentially a purification of all the information I had been given previously. The beauty of it inspired me to become a catechumen.
I, too, have been following Dr. Heiser for about 8 years, as well as following The Bible Project. Began listening to Symbolic World about 2yrs ago and added LoS about a year ago. I’m curious what you have felt was “purified” for you. I am a Prot (husband is a Pastor), but I’m being drawn to Orthodoxy.
@Kathryn M This is really cool to hear about. My wife and I just resigned from our church as pastors and are headed to Orthodoxy. Fr Stephen was a huge help for us and the Orthodox tradition of the spiritual world simply stands above the rest. God bless you on your journey.
@@JamiDelgado I think it’s where all of this information was essentially pointing to; true church. However, I’d would correct myself in saying that the podcasts are purification, but rather a distillation. Purification of it all really, is being in the church and it is the highest quality of worship I have ever experienced.
I misunderstood so many things and that made me reject Christianity for a long time. But Father Stephen has explained, clarified and solved all my conundrums with his vast knowledge! Now I’m back into Orthodoxy and thanking God for this priest. He is the man ✊🏻
Please remember me in your prayers. I’m not Orthodox but I’m seeking. I want to be very much. I came out of a Pentecostal church ( Assembly of God). Being Orthodox is something that I’ve wanted for a few years now but the Church is over an hour away and I do not drive. So, I need prayers because I’m a sinner, and because if the Orthodox is the one true church then I believe that god will make a way for me. Thank you.
At the very least, next time you are in town go and talk to the priest or call or email him. Just do this first step. God blazes the trail for us but you still have to hike the trail of your own volition!
I also came out of the Assemblies of God into Orthodoxy; My priest lives in a different city, but is the rector of both the Parish there and the mission Parish of two nearby cities including mine. He visits once a month to do Liturgy for me and another convert, which is very blessed. May God make straight the way for you also! Glory to God!
I would suggest you to call the church, explain your situation and book an appointment ( in person or virtually) with the priest. Its amazing to see how this will open your way. There might be people from your city that are going to that church on Sundays, that can drive you there. So don't lose your hope, just do that first step and let God lead. May God bless you brother!🙏
I’m another AoG -> Orthodox convert, and pray for your journey. If I can offer a word of caution; be careful approaching it as “the one true church”. Not saying it isn’t, but if your coming from a propositional background you could easily make Orthodoxy just the better set of propositions. I did 😂. I recall Fr Stephen saying somewhere that he only accepts catechumens if the Orthodox Church is the place where they encounter God.
What Fr. Stephen said at the end is really reflective of my own journey into the Orthodox Faith. I didn’t know about the Symbolic World or anything like that, but I had been studying, and been on board with Orthodox Theology for about three years before becoming a catechumen. My relationship with that theology changed in my year as a catechumen, and has only further deepened since being baptized as well.
You are both do an excellent job of explaining complex topics, but… As someone who is less than two months into my journey into orthodoxy, this broke my brain lol still, I’m super grateful to live in a time where I have access to conversations like this
@@thesampo yeah, I’ve been to a local ROCOR parish two weeks in a row now and I’m more surprised than anyone to say that I spend all week wishing I could go back sooner. It’s such an odd feeling for someone who spent the first 40 years of my life avoiding church at all costs
@@hobbsmatt like Fr. Stephen talks about at the end of this video, just attend regularly and participate in the parish and you'll be surprised how much more you'll understand as your participation continues. Orthodoxy can not be read about to understand, it has to be experienced and that takes time.
For all the comments of people saying that the laughs distracted them, I wanted to say that I personally enjoyed it even more because of the good humour :)
It did break my brain a little bit but a lot of things clicked for me especially regarding the importance of ritual that Jonathan referred to. I'm going to listen to it again.
God creating the world to worship him does vibe resonate with how you described God creating the world so that it could come back to him in this love story way. Worship is simply the mechanism by which that return can take place. Think of an ordinary relationship, it's the most natural and wonderful thing in the world to praise your partner. It makes both of you feel great. With this in mind, it's not gross or egoistic of God to create so that he can be worshipped. Worshipping him is after the best thing in the world. If there was something higher than God I'm sure he'd rather we worship that instead. He can't do so because the best he has to give us is himself.
Where are the times when the unthinkable ambition of the whole project of Christianity sounded to me like the most brazen intelectual herezy... A sky-castle of human megalomania and the result of us being unable to cope. A pipe dream of few prideful unable to discern where we belong. Another attempt to force deals with God. Another Babel. The very thought of it curled my innards since I was ten and I felt us humans barely worthy of looking anywhere above our heads and much less to the Heavens. And yet... some of us try to climb up there for the best reasons possible. They do it to not be stumbling stones for others thus they actualy do belong up there in a way. What a world.. What a mercy. What a gift to live on this side of the Cross. Words fail me. The style of it.. The balls of it all!
This is very valuable and educational for me right now, as a devout Christian i love Orthodox theology, cosmology and metaphysics and certain important truths like the Eternality of Hypostatic Union of Christ are very profoundly and deeply yet very brightly comprehensible for me when listening to Jonathan's and Fr. Stephen's words. Glory to God that i found this channel. Thank you brothers, God Bless You.
one The Worst losers that does not know symbolism'is this loser Religion is a scam You accept your own slavery and ours to the lies of religion Religion will never be real You are not free with government over you
I understand with a better clarity now. He rituals I learned and walked in as a very young Catholic child led me to the joyful, beautiful,frustrating,messy Christian walk I now enjoy. What a lovely 60+ years it has been!
Everyone needs to check out Fr. Stephen's verse-by-verse Bible study on UA-cam The Whole Counsel of God, and his character focused monthly Bible studies on the AMEN DOMSE channel
Thank you for this conversation! I’ve been pondering the significance of showing Christ as creator in icons since I have become Orthodox. As Jonathan says, this ties in with St Maximus but with Gregory of Nyssa’s metaphysics as well! Good stuff!
This was a good talk fellas, especially that last section. Clears a lot of stuff up for me. I didn’t understand prayer until I started praying. I came back to Catholicism through reason and the intellect but I’m realizing it’s really hard to convey to people the truth of the teachings this way. There’s too much confusion and misunderstanding to cut through. I’m no expert on these topics anyway so it can be hard to articulate what I mean. And then I myself feel a little silly when it’s time to go to Mass, or confession, or any other time where the rubber hits the road. But it’s precisely those actions and rituals that really pull you into it. This is true with secular things as well. You can talk and theorize all day about working out, but actually working out is a whole different ball game.
@@fakename3208what do you mean by “inviting your mind to Gos” is it to lift your face towards the one who can and operates in a way different ie kingdom mentality? Hope that makes sense.
This thing mentioned near the end, about Christianity being more than a true/false test of theology, is very key for me. I discovered the truth of Jesus about 3 years ago and gave my life to Him. I'm in a Protestant church, and discovered Christ through a journey that centered around finding the truth. In this context, the obvious next step for me was to dive deep into theology to learn as much as I could about my new Father, Friend, and Hero. I've been doing that for about 3 years now, and have just about exhausted the basics. I am now getting increasingly more frustrated by Protestantism's inability to settle on core theology, and the longer this has gone on, the more noticeable it becomes that there are subtle contradictions at the basis of Protestantism. As I began exploring the basics of Orthodoxy, and the key areas of disagreement, I've become able to pinpoint what the problems are, exactly. 1. Protestantism claims that we are saved by faith alone, but also this saving work has already been completed. So, although we are not saved by works, works are literally the only thing left to do. Every serious Protestant I know has a completely loaded schedule and is working towards a burn-out, whilst preaching that works are not necessary. It's very bizarre. There's an expectation that I will gradually do the same, yet every time I try to carefully consider what type of works I should be doing, I get an intense sola-fide reaction telling me that I should not take work so seriously. This awkward double bind has been frustrating me for about a year now, and I've just now started to realize the underlying error. 2. Protestantism claims that scripture is the only authority. And yet, Protestants, more than anyone else, alter the contents of scripture and reinterpret simple texts to get around undesired concepts. There's a massive focus on having "the right theology" (true/false answers), yet no one seems to agree on anything. Many Protestants avoid theology entirely because of how much division it creates, but at the same time the religion is entirely intellectual, so its own basis is undermined. Meanwhile, this same holy scripture says that we should not lean on our own understanding, and that those who are not wise tend to be closer to God. But if right theology is the core of salvation, you actually require that every true Christian must be a brilliant theologian. You cannot have low intelligence Christians depending on the theology of church authority, because the church holds no authority under sola scriptura. The end result seems to be a Christianity in which it is required that every Christian must sort-of intuitively know the right theology through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, without relying on scripture or teachers. Sola scriptura is thereby undermined, and pragmatically reduced to the "simple gospel" plus a whole lot of effectively useless scripture because we cannot determine its correct interpretation, therefore its authority is nullified. With these two pillars of Protestantism undermined by its own teachings and practices, that seemingly leaves zero objections against the Orthodox church. My only remaining obstacle in making a switch is that I do recognize God's work in the lives of my Protestant brothers and sisters. After all, it's this very demonstration of God's presence that has proven to me that He is real. Although I understand that God can work in people outside of the church, just like He used to work in people outside of Israel, I find it hard to decide what to do from here. I am very young within Christianity, and even younger in Orthodoxy. Enormity of the task aside, it would be irresponsible for me to attempt to convert my church, as that would put me in the role of a teacher, which would be irresponsible in my current state. My position within this church community is reasonably high, because it is tiny and my commitment is high, but honestly I'm too young in Christianity to be having this position already. Flat hierarchies are strange creatures. Practically, deciding my next step on a personal level is also quite difficult. I'm in a region that is primarily unbelieving. The majority of believers are Roman-Catholic. My church is Protestant, and quite pioneering even within Protestantism. And within that, I myself am cautiously inching towards Orthodoxy. My position is about as fringe as it gets. I know of 1 Russian-Orthodox church in my city, which just happens to be the most questionable subsection of Orthodoxy at this time. They do have a statement opposing the war on their website, though. But I still feel very hesitant about getting in contact with them right now. I have not yet discussed this within my current church, but I plan to do so soon. I wanted to wait until after the Christmas celebrations, just in case I might've ruined it by bringing up this subject that would come as a total surprise to them. All that to say, what was mentioned in the video, about not just agreeing with Orthodoxy, but getting involved with it for a significant amount of time, is nudging me further towards making a decision. I do notice that I feel lacking in this "participatory" side of the faith. Although Protestantism is a very "busy" type of religion, the activities feel often detached, because Protestants are very scared of getting too religious. Everything is considered a potential idol, so that leaves secularism as the only remaining option that feels safe. Of course, even this is imploding now, as Protestants slowly realize that secularism is just as much about idol worship as everything else that doesn't involve Christ. Oh dear, it's all such a mess...
@@davidstaudinger1543 Hi there! It’s interesting to re-read this after a year! Quite quickly after this, I left my Protestant community and fully committed to Orthodoxy. I’ve been officially accepted as catechumen about half a year ago. Although it was hard at the moment, when I had to tell my very close Protestant brothers and sisters that I was leaving, I have zero regrets. God’s True Orthodox Church is the place to be. My previous life cannot even compare, it barely even seems like it was a life. I continue to pray that one day they will discover the real Truth, too. As for my current status: Praise the Lord, for He is great, and He is overwhelmingly good for my miserable little soul. 🙏🏻
@@choicemeatrandy6572 Hi there! In what way is it incorrect? Reading this again, nearly 2 years later, it still seems fully accurate to me, even though I was only just beginning to figure these things out at the time.
@@davidstaudinger1543 Sorry, it appears my reply at the time did not make it through UA-cam's comment system alive. I'm doing very excellent. I've been going to a Greek-Orthodox parish for nearly 2 years now and it's everything I hoped for and so much more. This is undoubtedly Christ's true Church. Everything else I engaged with before this is like a cardboard cut-out in comparison.
Really enjoyed this. Some really helpful teaching. The bit about holy water sprinkled in the house to re-establish order through the authority it represents I have found to be true. It is part of the spiritual maintenance that needs to be done in our lives which includes fasting and feasting. X
I love this channel, thank you, Jonathan. I also love listening (and reading) to both Fr. Stephen De Young and Fr. Andrew Damick--spiritually enlightening and beneficial. IC XC NIKA ☦❤
I am a follower of Pageau’s work here, there is a lot of insight in his content from a perspective that had been uncommon for me. Yet I here from time to time negative comments about calvinism and reformed theology. i am myself more reformed in my theology and yet I find his work very useful and in no way opposite to reformed theology. My observation is that it has not been studied enough or appropriately. The early fathers are really pillars for systematics and are considered very much in church history. The reformers and the puritans stood upon their shoulders and never had the arrogance to establish new teachings. If I may read the works of Jonathan Edwards, his philosophy and theology, read his miscellanies, is free online. Much of the content of this channel and so the early fathers are brilliantly written by him during the enlightened period, read the end for which God created the world, the nature of true virtue, religious affections. Also for systematics the four volume of Herman Bavinck, there you will find what is reformed theology and how is full of the early fathers. It is the best work in systematics.
Love those points about inconsistency of bottom vs. top hiearachy, the larger point might be the denial of hiearachy as such. Hard to be consistent when you still think there is no structure and no higher vs. lower order (only horizontal order) to be delt with. Might be worth making clips of those points that so many seem to miss.
The experience of time section and especially St. Maximus the Confessor stating that Christ created the world while He was on the Cross has to do with temporal determinacy vs. logical determinacy. A microcosmic example of this is starting a car. The temporal determinant in starting a car is the insertion of the key into the ignition because in time this is what occurs first. However, the logical determinant in starting a car is pushing down your foot on the gas pedal because the car will fundamentally not start without doing so despite the insertion of the key into the ignition
This made me thing of Father Stephen de Young’s catchphrase: “Sorry Calvinists”😂 why? Becuase I would really like a convo between him and Paul Vander Klay , considering Father Stephen was a reformed Protestant.
For the way the temporal dimension interacts with the eternal one, I've found the writings of Boethius very illuminating. I even find it interesting that his writings from the Fifth century seem to dovetail with Einstein's general relativity. Boethius' idea that time is a dimension within eternity where change is made possible and the corollary that every moment within time is simultaneous with the One eternal moment (hence, the relativity of time) truly blew my mind.
In terms of Plato’s alotted shepherds and the second power of heaven, I think both of you should really talk to Michael Heiser on his Deuteronomy 32 worldview (Unseen Realm), could be a very worthwhile conversation!
How is it that angels could be capable of being jealous in the first place? This conversation is very informative between two excellent expositors, much appreciated, but all my major questions about Christianity always comes back to this theme. If it isn't from God himself, how could a kind of corruption of angel and also human nature ever even arise?
I think it has to do with evil/sin being the lack of goodness. So evil isn't God made, it's the absence of what God made. But how angels came up lacking is still a question I don't fully have an answer to.
God didn't create the angels for the same purpose He created humanity. We have the potential to be one with Him in Christ, and the angels do not. Some of them are, understandably, butthurt about this.
It is a pride that comes from self-awareness and attributing glory to yourself rather than God. Individualism, self-suffiency, self-idolisation... all come from this. Our self-actualisation ought to reveal God, it is corrupted through our passions and lack of humility... this isn't a fault on the part of God. The battle against our passions and our constant striving for true humility are what brings us to Him! So basically it is a win win for us and for God, though the fallen angels not so much because they turned from God in full knowledge of Him, we turn in our incompleteness.
Angels are persons and have free will, so it’s sort of like the principle of power itself manifested as a person in the devil, so he will act as a person with the most power and less authority than someone with little power would, in an act of prideful rebellion
@45:12 This is in line with what I keep trying to tell people about adaptation to technology: We are still children with the internet and eventually we will "put childish ways behind us".
I would love to see Pageau and Heiser talk! I've heard some orthodox dismissing Heiser as reinventing the wheel but if that's the case why not share ideas with him? It would also engage many protestants who believe in the supernatural and are willing to hear you out.
You should look to interview Dr Michael Heiser. He's been railing for an acknowledgment of these ideas from the church for quite some time. "If the 2nd temple era Jew isn't living in your mind when you read Scripture, you're probably reading it wrong"
neither theists or atheists can answer simple questions like, where is the universe? what is it built on? how did the universe come into existence? when did time begin and what was before time?
Yes, I was thinking about the same. Michael Heiser already presented many of these ideas, but since I did not read/listen enough to Fr. Stephen De Young, I am not sure how much they overlap.
I've been suspicious that the things that are supposedly so deep in the subconscious that the consciousness mind cannot access them may be places where the human heart has access to the spiritual world, can he influenced by the spiritual world, and by accepting that influence, they are embodying outside spirits. The evolutionary psychologist assumes it is all already inside a person by nature or nurture, but why can it not be an external "psychological" influence?
Check out Jesse Lee Peterson, Ralph Smart, John Butler. The kingdom of God is within. And while I like deep analysis of the patterns of life, the most significant pattern is always the simplest.
I thought the idea of there being both a God of mercy and a God of judgment was really interesting. Do you think there's a possibility that this idea was symbolized in the Old Testament through the Urim and Thummim?
So, could it be said then that the angelic rebellion is an attempt to prove that humanity is unworthy or incapable of achieving the station our Lord has made us for? Am I understanding what you say here?
"There are two that can operate independently" with authority - Stephen De Young. There are two. There is the Father and there is the Son. I don't know why we say there are two and then try to make two separate beings the same being. There are two the Father and the Son. There is the Son of Man (Christ), there is the Man of Holiness (God). One is God and one is Christ.
There are three, actually. Three persons in the Holy Trinity, each distinct, and yet also of one essence. I get that you don't understand it. I don't either. No Christian has ever been able to explain it. That's why the Holy Trinity is acknowledged as a mystery.
@@ericlammerman2777 I agree there are three. I didn't include the Holy Spirit as I was hoping to focus on Stephen acknowledging the authority and independence of the two. I agree the three are of one essence, they are of one mind and purpose but they are not intwined physically or spiritually as one. They are separate and distinct with the same essence. I don't have to understand trinity and I don't consider it a mystery. Why is the idea so shunned that the Godhead is separate and individual? Christ speaks to the Father on the cross, he does not speak to Himself. There are many more example. The Nicene Creed has created a great stumbling block for men in understanding. The Trinity is a principle by creed not by scripture. Scripture says they are distinct the creed says they are one. Let's folly holy writ before a council of men.
22:23 what is the difference between standing and sitting within orthodoxy? Heterodox spanking, angels sitting is the album art for the best Black Sabbath album. Within closer circles, I've got a friend from church who's mom does icons. I want to commission one of the prophet Isaiah, based on a picture I took of said saint, seated in the visitor center at Temple Square. I don't know if it is better to have him standing instead. (Shrugs, clicks send and play again)
@Jonathan Pageau I would be very interested to hear you and/or Frs. Damick and De Young engage in conversation with David Bentley Hart.... Have you considered inviting him on?
There is a major notion beyond Rabbi Akiva from the Mishnah of Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai that the Son of Man is The 12 tribes of Israel, so to reduce Talmud to the two powers of heaven problem is quintessentially half of the mystery. I am Roman Catholic.
@@DixonCameronS can you point me to some good resources to understand what you are trying to say, about a quarter way through your comment I realize you are using alot of vocabulary I am unfamiliar with.
@@DixonCameronS Yeah, I am aware that they are not exactly the same but the point was to make clear that we do understand like you said the notion of uncreated grace and the distinction between who God is and what he does. And also there is a problem with thinking that the eastern theology is not part of our theology as if the eastern Catholic Churches are not part of the Roman Catholic Church. I wanted to start the convo because I am tired of orthodox using these topics as a distinction to separate them from us, when the only true reason why the east and the west are separated is because of authority and not too much about theology specially not about the issue of distinctions between God Essence and his uncreated powers.
@@DixonCameronS But I do believe that Saint Thomas Aquinas has more distinctions than Saint Gregory and the oriental churches, many people think they understand him when in fact they don't (even Thomists). Being someone, for example being me and the essence of me are the same, the difference is that being me is potency in respect of the act of being (actus essendi) in which I participate, that is, God. Participation for St. Thomas means to have an act or formality in a limited, imperfect, particular way, which is received from one who has it in an unlimited, perfect and universal way. Saint Thomas makes a distinction between "Divine esse" and "esse commune" For St. Thomas, the esse commune “is that intrinsic principle, that act of being (actus essendi), found in every existing entity, that is, every substance, which accounts for the fact that it actually exists. We can only know that God communicates his being and we can make distinctions between him and his acts, and his acts as uncreated and substantial for every created thing but can not know the how do they connect how is it that he makes that happens, we can know that there are different ontological levels, and that we participate in him potentially since he is the one that actualizes our level of participation through his graces (which Saint Thomas distinguishes on different levels sanctifying, actual, habitual, charismatic graces they are all supernatural but the effects are natural), and we can understand all of this by analogy but we can't understand God's act of creation directly since that would necessarily mean that we know God in himself and that's impossible, so we can categorize the distinctions in Greek, Latin, in a Thomistic, Franciscan, Palamist manner yet the true important thing is that we live saintly lives, and for that you don't need a bunch of theological and metaphysical distinctions, you need theological and human virtues that allow you to live how God wants you to live. Worrying to much about "deification" can lead people to act like occultists searching for enlightenment, and that's why the Roman Catholic Church in her wisdom directs people in a specific manner through her different disciplinary and prudential actions towards theosis. In the end, you either act as the son of God or you act as the son of the devil and that's all that matters. Much love sorry for the long post.
At 42:50 Forgive me if i am misinterpreting but i do not understand what Fr Stephen is saying here. Are we not beings with free will, that are reponsible for our own actions? Why are 'spirits at work' and how would they control us to do evil actions such as mass murder? Please let me know so i can better understand this.
The spirits don't control most of us, nor do they really know us, they just sit on our shoulders and scream lies at us. Some of these lies are beguiling but once we entertain their ideas, they have a foothold and their pestering becomes easier and easier. Hence the need for constantly imploring on the Mercy of God. The spirits don't let up, even on the saintly, indeed if the spirits are ignoring you, it probably means you are working your own perdition and you don't need their help.
The only reason I stopped watching Lord of Spirits is only because I use no apps and that the interface on AFR is so terrible. I missed a week and I lost track completely since there's no way to tell what you've watched (or listened to, rather), let alone how far into a given podcast you've gotten. Miss one week on any of their offerings and you are off the wagon for good it seems.
Good evening Sean - as it appears that you do use UA-cam, I thought this link may be useful for you. It's a playlist of all of the Lord of Spirits Podcasts which have been posted by the Ancient Faith Radio UA-cam page. I think there may be one or two missing, but it's a lot of very good content :) ua-cam.com/play/PLRaKOYpbxRrG0izXOoWPB79WWgF4o76al.html
I do think omnipresence is a misnomer. A better word might be "superpresence", like supernatural. You wouldn't say God is "omninatural", that He is all of nature. That would be a statement of pantheism. In the same way omnipresence hints to pantheism. "Omni" suggests an amrphous blob or a messy chimera type freak, who is all sorts of incompatible things at the same time. I think this is also what causes atheists to think that omnipotence is a self-contradictory topic. The "omni" prefix suggests that God is "inside" these concepts, filling them completely, but ultimately being contained within them. However, God is "above" these concepts, making Him "super" rather than "omni". He can associate and dissociate with all of creation as He pleases, and in any configuration, even beyond our understanding.
I wish there wasn't such a hard dichotomy drawn between the faith of the Orthodox and the Protestant. For instance, why can't understanding "sin" as being "a power that possesses you" and not "you are evil" be true, and yet still acknowledge the agency of the individual in living as a "slave to sin" and hold ourselves accountable to the evil that the individual's actions produce in the world. I do believe the overarching narrative of the good news is the story of redemption from enslavement to evil forces, but I also believe that there is a day coming in which everyone will give an account for the way they've lived.
Don't worry, that's not the divide. The Orthodox do believe in Judgment Day. This priest is simply mocking a lot of other Orthodox and Protestants for not sharing his particular take on human responsibility in the face of the angelic or demonic because he believes he's cracked the code. He is not wrong, but he's not right either. His stance can only be understood from the perspective of a priest looking to their flock, which is not the reality of the world, it's just the reality of the Church. Which is fine and well as a perspective, but it simply ignores what you point out. The Orthodox can afford to range the spectrum because ultimately, salvation is tied to repentance. And in that sense, it's at hand. We may pray and wish others took it, but it's up to each one of us to repent.
I would say to you that the differences are not those, but they are substantial and worthwhile, and I do pray you try to seek Orthodoxy. "You" cannot ultimately be evil, not because you cannot ally yourself with evil, which you can if you don't repent, but because as long as you live you may choose the good, and because evil does not really exist except as a parasite on the good (and it still does not have a real ontology). So damnation occurs beyond this life even if it begins here. Hope any of this helps. God watch over you.
Every Orthodox Christian goes to confession and in that confession the priest does not say " The bad spirits are to blame and you didn't have " a choice" It is more like "Yeah, the spiritual war is serious and not unique to you but you can pattern yourself in a way in which these snake bites don't sting you" " stay alert and be aware and form your life around the Christ. "
Whoa! FSD somewhat insinuated that idolatry is to create a false hypostases of God - or rather you are abandoning the Triune nature of God whenever you try to force Him into a structure that is opposed to His nature? This is so profound! Idolatry is to reject the Trinity?
You have to make a new video addressing kanye west and his antisemitism and what's going on symbolically with what he's doing right now. Also I would love for Jordan to interview him is there anyway you can ask Jordan to do this?
I'm a confessional Lutheran pastor, big fan of S.W. and Jonathan, but I don't agree with De Young at all about this. I have so many problems with his teachings in this video. The connections between the Orthodox teaching on the Trinity did not arise out of Egyptian or Canaanite idol worship with their 'localizations' of particular gods, but out of the Jewish faith, a faith which utterly rejected pluralities of gods and even noted the impossibility of containing the one God of heaven in any temple (1 Kings 8:27). To say the "doctrine of the Trinity is a particular teaching regarding this" is not correct - historically (let alone theologically). On top of this; the historic and Orthodox view of this is one we find in the early apologists, men like St Justin Martyr. They would argue that these pagan ideas which might have a ring of truth about them come from the fact that the Logos is Truth, and that the Logos sprinkles the seeds of Truth upon Jew and Gentile alike. That is the Orthodox account for religious practices that have some Christian 'ring' about them. Philo is an example, though to what extent an evangelist like St John was dependent upon Philo is basically impossible to ascertain! Perhaps Philo was simply close to the Truth (Christ), and so he was blessed with a knowledge that hinted at the Truth of the Trinity. Someone else like Eusebius would say that the 2nd and 1st century B.C. Jewish writings (Enoch, etc.) which describe Messianic figures, the Logos, Wisdom 'personified,' and other proto-Christian elements are exactly that: proto-Christian. They are suggestive, anticipatory hints and glimpses of the truth that would be revealed after the empty tomb and Pentecost. They arose during a period of intense messianic expectation and brilliant Jewish philosophizing. It seems to me that De Young's approach has a very modern ring to it, informed by 20th century scholarship. Also, to say "God has more than one hypostasis" is also misleading and wrong. He does not "have" the way that people "have" personalities, or minds, or spirits. This sounds Sabellian, as if God has different ways of relating to the world or showing Himself. No, He IS three Hypostases sharing the One Divine Substance (three and one). And finally, the whole part about Daniel "re-mixing" the Baal cycle is oddly untraditional and unorthodox (and taken from modern, critical, Protestant commentaries). Read how the Fathers interpret Daniel and you'll know the Truth. Read Hippolytus or Irenaeus or Jerome on Daniel! The whole idea of a scriptural author, inspired by the Spirit, 're-mixing' pagan myth cycles, adapting them to his Jewish worldview, is quite problematic; rather, if there are parallels, it's because even the Canaanite religion had some vestige of knowledge about the divine power, or judgment, or fatherhood, etc. because the "Logos spermatikos" (sowing Word) gives seeds of truth that take root in the nations. "Son of Man" is only found in a variety of places because Christ, the Son of Man, has left His mark on the minds of His creatures.
So what you're telling me is that the Bible is also a time travel science fiction story, where Jesus dies and becomes the beginning...It's like we've struggling for 2000 years to build the vocabulary to tell this story properly.
Me too, he is smart, has an interesting thought, but that random laughing makes me turn off the video everytime i see him. I dont hate the man but its just....ughhh.
“Patterns change with authority, that’s how it works” no.. that is how it works in your mind for your faith to still stand.. patterns change when you create a pattern interrupt, you don’t need a priest.. that’s just controlling peoples faith by telling them someone has more spiritual authority because off a position they’ve given themselves. a Priest coming to a house and cleansing with holy water is literal witchcraft, that is a ritual and spell being done with an artifact or talisman.. It’s just NLP(neurolinguistic programming) yes it works but it can be explained aside from religion, it’s just a process of life
There are authorities on spiritual matters, and those aren’t necessarily priests or preachers. In my experience, they are rare people, but they do exist, and they seem wiser than the rest of us. They do not give themselves authority, but others recognize their authority.
@@joefilter2923 authority is a horrible word to use.. immediately putting yourself in a subservient position. Being more wise doesn’t give anyone any authority over me.. that’s a word used by church figures to psychologically son people and give themselves power
@@Bolden47 brother ... you've got something like a thousand hours of historical Orthodoxy/Christianity to catch up on before you go down this rabbit hole. I would strongly advise against just talking and not understanding actual Christianity that was handed down from Christ to the Apostles and then to the early Church Fathers and all the way down to us now. This is what Christianity is: anything else is just a different religion.
Fr. Stephen has quickly become a favorite author and Podcaster for me. The man is such a blessing to so many! Glory to God!
As a Roman Catholic, LoS has been very informative on the proper spiritual way of looking at the world, thank you for the podcast and humour!!
Same!
The proper spiritual way of looking at the world is Orthodoxy. Papism doesn't offer that as it has a platonic view of God that cuts off his uncreated presence in this world due to absolute divine simplicity.
Father Stephen & Father Andrew mentioned this on their podcast once. All that cool stuff they talk about is not only void & absent in papism, but rather straight up impossible. All the cool symbolic stuff Jonathan talks about? Guess what...?
*Not possible in the "roman catholic" worldview*
There is no Divine Council without the Essence/Energy distinction. And if you do acknowledge the Essence/Energy distinction as being true, you admit by default that the West has been wrong about this debate for more than a thousand years at this point which in turn refutes Papism.
Become Orthodox, my friend.
Same.
Same here brother
@@lordofhostsappreciator3075 maybe that's why it fits so well for Lutherans. We have essence/energy distinction and divine simplicity
The Symbolic World and The Lord of Spirits are the best crossovers of all crossovers!
top 10 anime crossovers
This wasn’t fringe to me, I had been listening to “The Bible Project” but more importantly Dr. Michael Heisers book “Unseen Realm” for about 3 years prior. Lord of Spirits podcast was essentially a purification of all the information I had been given previously. The beauty of it inspired me to become a catechumen.
A lot of these talks remind me of Heiser. I've been a fan of his for 10 or so years. Sometimes I wonder why Mike's not Orthodox lol.
I, too, have been following Dr. Heiser for about 8 years, as well as following The Bible Project. Began listening to Symbolic World about 2yrs ago and added LoS about a year ago. I’m curious what you have felt was “purified” for you. I am a Prot (husband is a Pastor), but I’m being drawn to Orthodoxy.
@Kathryn M This is really cool to hear about. My wife and I just resigned from our church as pastors and are headed to Orthodoxy. Fr Stephen was a huge help for us and the Orthodox tradition of the spiritual world simply stands above the rest. God bless you on your journey.
@@JamiDelgado I think it’s where all of this information was essentially pointing to; true church. However, I’d would correct myself in saying that the podcasts are purification, but rather a distillation. Purification of it all really, is being in the church and it is the highest quality of worship I have ever experienced.
Glory to God
I misunderstood so many things and that made me reject Christianity for a long time. But Father Stephen has explained, clarified and solved all my conundrums with his vast knowledge! Now I’m back into Orthodoxy and thanking God for this priest. He is the man ✊🏻
WHY AM I JUST NOW FINDING OUT ABOUT LoS???
What a great day this has turned out to be.
Thank you for the introduction Johnathan.
live show going on now, and SO MANY MANY hours for you to binge on later.
Brother ... you've got a good 3 years of mind blowing podcasts to catch up on. Your life will never be the same. Godspeed.
Go straight to the episode about the Nephilim, brother!
Same lol
@Adam the Inquirer that's probably not the consequence they had in mind! Hehe
Please remember me in your prayers. I’m not Orthodox but I’m seeking. I want to be very much. I came out of a Pentecostal church ( Assembly of God). Being Orthodox is something that I’ve wanted for a few years now but the Church is over an hour away and I do not drive. So, I need prayers because I’m a sinner, and because if the Orthodox is the one true church then I believe that god will make a way for me. Thank you.
At the very least, next time you are in town go and talk to the priest or call or email him. Just do this first step. God blazes the trail for us but you still have to hike the trail of your own volition!
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 that the way will be made clear for you.
I also came out of the Assemblies of God into Orthodoxy; My priest lives in a different city, but is the rector of both the Parish there and the mission Parish of two nearby cities including mine. He visits once a month to do Liturgy for me and another convert, which is very blessed.
May God make straight the way for you also! Glory to God!
I would suggest you to call the church, explain your situation and book an appointment ( in person or virtually) with the priest. Its amazing to see how this will open your way. There might be people from your city that are going to that church on Sundays, that can drive you there. So don't lose your hope, just do that first step and let God lead. May God bless you brother!🙏
I’m another AoG -> Orthodox convert, and pray for your journey.
If I can offer a word of caution; be careful approaching it as “the one true church”. Not saying it isn’t, but if your coming from a propositional background you could easily make Orthodoxy just the better set of propositions. I did 😂.
I recall Fr Stephen saying somewhere that he only accepts catechumens if the Orthodox Church is the place where they encounter God.
The only thing that could make this better is if it was 10 hours long.
What Fr. Stephen said at the end is really reflective of my own journey into the Orthodox Faith. I didn’t know about the Symbolic World or anything like that, but I had been studying, and been on board with Orthodox Theology for about three years before becoming a catechumen. My relationship with that theology changed in my year as a catechumen, and has only further deepened since being baptized as well.
You are both do an excellent job of explaining complex topics, but… As someone who is less than two months into my journey into orthodoxy, this broke my brain lol still, I’m super grateful to live in a time where I have access to conversations like this
Hopefully you have a church near you to attend. I am only 2 years ahead of you on this path. Glory to God you found the church!
@@thesampo yeah, I’ve been to a local ROCOR parish two weeks in a row now and I’m more surprised than anyone to say that I spend all week wishing I could go back sooner. It’s such an odd feeling for someone who spent the first 40 years of my life avoiding church at all costs
@@hobbsmatt like Fr. Stephen talks about at the end of this video, just attend regularly and participate in the parish and you'll be surprised how much more you'll understand as your participation continues. Orthodoxy can not be read about to understand, it has to be experienced and that takes time.
@@hobbsmatt your words are my story exactly, except I’ve been at a Romanian OCA
@@ButterBobBriggs Yes, you learn so much more from participation in the Church than you learn from reading and "thinking" about the faith.
Fr. De Young's The Whole Counsel of God Bible study lectures are amazing!
I wish this was 5 times longer... Can't get enough of these guys
these guys are losers
Religion is slavery
NOT REALITY
You are not free if you have government
Thanks
Listening to Pageau has become a daily occurrence to me. I hope that I also understand everything at the best of my ability.
May the Lord give you light and understanding.
For all the comments of people saying that the laughs distracted them, I wanted to say that I personally enjoyed it even more because of the good humour :)
Repeating "right" so much is what annoyed me 😅
It did break my brain a little bit but a lot of things clicked for me especially regarding the importance of ritual that Jonathan referred to. I'm going to listen to it again.
I love these chaps.
This was the exact conversation I was hoping to hear after Jonathan's recent talks, and the recent "spirit" episode of LoS
Now we need an in-person version including Father Andrew.
God creating the world to worship him does vibe resonate with how you described God creating the world so that it could come back to him in this love story way. Worship is simply the mechanism by which that return can take place. Think of an ordinary relationship, it's the most natural and wonderful thing in the world to praise your partner. It makes both of you feel great. With this in mind, it's not gross or egoistic of God to create so that he can be worshipped. Worshipping him is after the best thing in the world. If there was something higher than God I'm sure he'd rather we worship that instead. He can't do so because the best he has to give us is himself.
Same. Glory to God! ☦️
This was a great discussion Jonathan. Fr De Young's joyfullness is so refreshing. thank you
Where are the times when the unthinkable ambition of the whole project of Christianity sounded to me like the most brazen intelectual herezy... A sky-castle of human megalomania and the result of us being unable to cope. A pipe dream of few prideful unable to discern where we belong. Another attempt to force deals with God. Another Babel. The very thought of it curled my innards since I was ten and I felt us humans barely worthy of looking anywhere above our heads and much less to the Heavens. And yet... some of us try to climb up there for the best reasons possible. They do it to not be stumbling stones for others thus they actualy do belong up there in a way. What a world.. What a mercy. What a gift to live on this side of the Cross. Words fail me. The style of it.. The balls of it all!
This is very valuable and educational for me right now, as a devout Christian i love Orthodox theology, cosmology and metaphysics and certain important truths like the Eternality of Hypostatic Union of Christ are very profoundly and deeply yet very brightly comprehensible for me when listening to Jonathan's and Fr. Stephen's words. Glory to God that i found this channel. Thank you brothers, God Bless You.
There is an Orthodox Church in Fiji if you're interested in becoming Orthodox.
One of the best Symbolic World podcasts I've ever heard. Thank you both so much!
one The Worst losers that does not know symbolism'is this loser
Religion is a scam
You accept your own slavery and ours to the lies of religion
Religion will never be real
You are not free with government over you
I understand with a better clarity now. He rituals I learned and walked in as a very young Catholic child led me to the joyful, beautiful,frustrating,messy Christian walk I now enjoy. What a lovely 60+ years it has been!
I love “The Lord of Spirits” podcast! I have Fr Stephen De Young’s books on my reading list. Thank you for hosting this insightful discussion.
And you are a moron for accepting slavery to religion for everyone
Everyone needs to check out Fr. Stephen's verse-by-verse Bible study on UA-cam The Whole Counsel of God, and his character focused monthly Bible studies on the AMEN DOMSE channel
THE PERFECT MAN IS GOD AND THAT IS THE MYSTERY OF GOD AND MAN
At work I've been listening to Fr Stephen here for months on end via Ancient Faith Radio on Spotify. Never knew what he looked like. Jolly! Noice!
Thank you for this conversation! I’ve been pondering the significance of showing Christ as creator in icons since I have become Orthodox. As Jonathan says, this ties in with St Maximus but with Gregory of Nyssa’s metaphysics as well! Good stuff!
So youre a slave then
Religion is a scam
This was a good talk fellas, especially that last section. Clears a lot of stuff up for me. I didn’t understand prayer until I started praying. I came back to Catholicism through reason and the intellect but I’m realizing it’s really hard to convey to people the truth of the teachings this way. There’s too much confusion and misunderstanding to cut through. I’m no expert on these topics anyway so it can be hard to articulate what I mean.
And then I myself feel a little silly when it’s time to go to Mass, or confession, or any other time where the rubber hits the road. But it’s precisely those actions and rituals that really pull you into it.
This is true with secular things as well. You can talk and theorize all day about working out, but actually working out is a whole different ball game.
Perspectival knowing vs Participatory knowing 😊
What did you understand about praying?
@@patrycja2696 Prayer is “lifting your mind to God”, and it’s good to do that on a regular basis.
That working out analogy is excellent.
@@fakename3208what do you mean by “inviting your mind to Gos” is it to lift your face towards the one who can and operates in a way different ie kingdom mentality? Hope that makes sense.
Father needs to close his blinds during these interviews so that it doesn't give the appearance that shekinah glory is overhead :-). Love you both. +
Why use holy water to purify and bless? “Patterns change through authority.” That’s a nice one.
I loved this! Thank HaShem and Thanks to you both! May your work in The Lord be without regret, fully of joy, and persistent in holiness!
This thing mentioned near the end, about Christianity being more than a true/false test of theology, is very key for me. I discovered the truth of Jesus about 3 years ago and gave my life to Him. I'm in a Protestant church, and discovered Christ through a journey that centered around finding the truth. In this context, the obvious next step for me was to dive deep into theology to learn as much as I could about my new Father, Friend, and Hero. I've been doing that for about 3 years now, and have just about exhausted the basics. I am now getting increasingly more frustrated by Protestantism's inability to settle on core theology, and the longer this has gone on, the more noticeable it becomes that there are subtle contradictions at the basis of Protestantism. As I began exploring the basics of Orthodoxy, and the key areas of disagreement, I've become able to pinpoint what the problems are, exactly.
1. Protestantism claims that we are saved by faith alone, but also this saving work has already been completed. So, although we are not saved by works, works are literally the only thing left to do. Every serious Protestant I know has a completely loaded schedule and is working towards a burn-out, whilst preaching that works are not necessary. It's very bizarre. There's an expectation that I will gradually do the same, yet every time I try to carefully consider what type of works I should be doing, I get an intense sola-fide reaction telling me that I should not take work so seriously. This awkward double bind has been frustrating me for about a year now, and I've just now started to realize the underlying error.
2. Protestantism claims that scripture is the only authority. And yet, Protestants, more than anyone else, alter the contents of scripture and reinterpret simple texts to get around undesired concepts. There's a massive focus on having "the right theology" (true/false answers), yet no one seems to agree on anything. Many Protestants avoid theology entirely because of how much division it creates, but at the same time the religion is entirely intellectual, so its own basis is undermined. Meanwhile, this same holy scripture says that we should not lean on our own understanding, and that those who are not wise tend to be closer to God. But if right theology is the core of salvation, you actually require that every true Christian must be a brilliant theologian. You cannot have low intelligence Christians depending on the theology of church authority, because the church holds no authority under sola scriptura. The end result seems to be a Christianity in which it is required that every Christian must sort-of intuitively know the right theology through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, without relying on scripture or teachers. Sola scriptura is thereby undermined, and pragmatically reduced to the "simple gospel" plus a whole lot of effectively useless scripture because we cannot determine its correct interpretation, therefore its authority is nullified.
With these two pillars of Protestantism undermined by its own teachings and practices, that seemingly leaves zero objections against the Orthodox church. My only remaining obstacle in making a switch is that I do recognize God's work in the lives of my Protestant brothers and sisters. After all, it's this very demonstration of God's presence that has proven to me that He is real. Although I understand that God can work in people outside of the church, just like He used to work in people outside of Israel, I find it hard to decide what to do from here. I am very young within Christianity, and even younger in Orthodoxy. Enormity of the task aside, it would be irresponsible for me to attempt to convert my church, as that would put me in the role of a teacher, which would be irresponsible in my current state. My position within this church community is reasonably high, because it is tiny and my commitment is high, but honestly I'm too young in Christianity to be having this position already. Flat hierarchies are strange creatures.
Practically, deciding my next step on a personal level is also quite difficult. I'm in a region that is primarily unbelieving. The majority of believers are Roman-Catholic. My church is Protestant, and quite pioneering even within Protestantism. And within that, I myself am cautiously inching towards Orthodoxy. My position is about as fringe as it gets. I know of 1 Russian-Orthodox church in my city, which just happens to be the most questionable subsection of Orthodoxy at this time. They do have a statement opposing the war on their website, though. But I still feel very hesitant about getting in contact with them right now. I have not yet discussed this within my current church, but I plan to do so soon. I wanted to wait until after the Christmas celebrations, just in case I might've ruined it by bringing up this subject that would come as a total surprise to them.
All that to say, what was mentioned in the video, about not just agreeing with Orthodoxy, but getting involved with it for a significant amount of time, is nudging me further towards making a decision. I do notice that I feel lacking in this "participatory" side of the faith. Although Protestantism is a very "busy" type of religion, the activities feel often detached, because Protestants are very scared of getting too religious. Everything is considered a potential idol, so that leaves secularism as the only remaining option that feels safe. Of course, even this is imploding now, as Protestants slowly realize that secularism is just as much about idol worship as everything else that doesn't involve Christ. Oh dear, it's all such a mess...
What’s your status now? How are you doing?
@@davidstaudinger1543 Hi there! It’s interesting to re-read this after a year! Quite quickly after this, I left my Protestant community and fully committed to Orthodoxy. I’ve been officially accepted as catechumen about half a year ago. Although it was hard at the moment, when I had to tell my very close Protestant brothers and sisters that I was leaving, I have zero regrets. God’s True Orthodox Church is the place to be. My previous life cannot even compare, it barely even seems like it was a life. I continue to pray that one day they will discover the real Truth, too. As for my current status: Praise the Lord, for He is great, and He is overwhelmingly good for my miserable little soul. 🙏🏻
I think your assessment is incorrect
@@choicemeatrandy6572 Hi there! In what way is it incorrect? Reading this again, nearly 2 years later, it still seems fully accurate to me, even though I was only just beginning to figure these things out at the time.
@@davidstaudinger1543 Sorry, it appears my reply at the time did not make it through UA-cam's comment system alive.
I'm doing very excellent. I've been going to a Greek-Orthodox parish for nearly 2 years now and it's everything I hoped for and so much more. This is undoubtedly Christ's true Church. Everything else I engaged with before this is like a cardboard cut-out in comparison.
Great discussion, wish it would have gone longer
I’m here for the Ugaritic death curses and wizard battles with fish roe.
Really enjoyed this. Some really helpful teaching. The bit about holy water sprinkled in the house to re-establish order through the authority it represents I have found to be true. It is part of the spiritual maintenance that needs to be done in our lives which includes fasting and feasting. X
I love this channel, thank you, Jonathan. I also love listening (and reading) to both Fr. Stephen De Young and Fr. Andrew Damick--spiritually enlightening and beneficial. IC XC NIKA ☦❤
I am a follower of Pageau’s work here, there is a lot of insight in his content from a perspective that had been uncommon for me. Yet I here from time to time negative comments about calvinism and reformed theology. i am myself more reformed in my theology and yet I find his work very useful and in no way opposite to reformed theology. My observation is that it has not been studied enough or appropriately. The early fathers are really pillars for systematics and are considered very much in church history. The reformers and the puritans stood upon their shoulders and never had the arrogance to establish new teachings. If I may read the works of Jonathan Edwards, his philosophy and theology, read his miscellanies, is free online. Much of the content of this channel and so the early fathers are brilliantly written by him during the enlightened period, read the end for which God created the world, the nature of true virtue, religious affections. Also for systematics the four volume of Herman Bavinck, there you will find what is reformed theology and how is full of the early fathers. It is the best work in systematics.
Love those points about inconsistency of bottom vs. top hiearachy, the larger point might be the denial of hiearachy as such. Hard to be consistent when you still think there is no structure and no higher vs. lower order (only horizontal order) to be delt with. Might be worth making clips of those points that so many seem to miss.
To have a deeper explanation of the difference between esoteric and exoteric would be interesting...
The experience of time section and especially St. Maximus the Confessor stating that Christ created the world while He was on the Cross has to do with temporal determinacy vs. logical determinacy. A microcosmic example of this is starting a car. The temporal determinant in starting a car is the insertion of the key into the ignition because in time this is what occurs first. However, the logical determinant in starting a car is pushing down your foot on the gas pedal because the car will fundamentally not start without doing so despite the insertion of the key into the ignition
So how about a conversation between Fr. Stephen and Matthieu Pageau? Who's in for that?
Yes!!!
This made me thing of
Father Stephen de Young’s catchphrase: “Sorry Calvinists”😂 why? Becuase I would really like a convo between him and
Paul Vander Klay , considering Father Stephen was a reformed Protestant.
Is he orthodox? In either case it would be awesome.
Wonderful!❤
this was great
Really great discussion, one of the better (and thats not a critism of the rest)
Thank you to give me a grip on "titans" now.
For the way the temporal dimension interacts with the eternal one, I've found the writings of Boethius very illuminating. I even find it interesting that his writings from the Fifth century seem to dovetail with Einstein's general relativity.
Boethius' idea that time is a dimension within eternity where change is made possible and the corollary that every moment within time is simultaneous with the One eternal moment (hence, the relativity of time) truly blew my mind.
Also very interesting is a talk on the Blogging Theology channel, with Professor Ali Ataie discussing the Son of Man.
I’ve wondered whether Jonathan was aware of Michael Heiser. Glad to see he is!
Interesting ....
Noch Noch, trick or treat?
Silence is broken
A chatter from the leaves
The wind has spoken
- Son of Man
In terms of Plato’s alotted shepherds and the second power of heaven, I think both of you should really talk to Michael Heiser on his Deuteronomy 32 worldview (Unseen Realm), could be a very worthwhile conversation!
This kind of thinking should be something all Christian traditions and denominations should agree on. It's pretty foundational just very neglected.
How is it that angels could be capable of being jealous in the first place? This conversation is very informative between two excellent expositors, much appreciated, but all my major questions about Christianity always comes back to this theme. If it isn't from God himself, how could a kind of corruption of angel and also human nature ever even arise?
I think it has to do with evil/sin being the lack of goodness. So evil isn't God made, it's the absence of what God made. But how angels came up lacking is still a question I don't fully have an answer to.
God didn't create the angels for the same purpose He created humanity. We have the potential to be one with Him in Christ, and the angels do not. Some of them are, understandably, butthurt about this.
My understanding is that it’s free will. If they didn’t have the capacity to reject God, in what meaningful way are they accepting him?
It is a pride that comes from self-awareness and attributing glory to yourself rather than God. Individualism, self-suffiency, self-idolisation... all come from this. Our self-actualisation ought to reveal God, it is corrupted through our passions and lack of humility... this isn't a fault on the part of God. The battle against our passions and our constant striving for true humility are what brings us to Him! So basically it is a win win for us and for God, though the fallen angels not so much because they turned from God in full knowledge of Him, we turn in our incompleteness.
Angels are persons and have free will, so it’s sort of like the principle of power itself manifested as a person in the devil, so he will act as a person with the most power and less authority than someone with little power would, in an act of prideful rebellion
@45:12 This is in line with what I keep trying to tell people about adaptation to technology: We are still children with the internet and eventually we will "put childish ways behind us".
I would love to see Pageau and Heiser talk! I've heard some orthodox dismissing Heiser as reinventing the wheel but if that's the case why not share ideas with him? It would also engage many protestants who believe in the supernatural and are willing to hear you out.
You should look to interview Dr Michael Heiser. He's been railing for an acknowledgment of these ideas from the church for quite some time. "If the 2nd temple era Jew isn't living in your mind when you read Scripture, you're probably reading it wrong"
neither theists or atheists can answer simple questions like,
where is the universe? what is it built on?
how did the universe come into existence?
when did time begin and what was before time?
Great guest and discussion. Is there a Sun element to the Son of man story?
I pray that Jonathan shows Peterson father De Youngs works
Anyone else seeing the parallel ideas to Michael Heiser's work? (Naked Bible Podcast)
Always lol
Yes, I was thinking about the same. Michael Heiser already presented many of these ideas, but since I did not read/listen enough to Fr. Stephen De Young, I am not sure how much they overlap.
Man I wish those three could get together
I've been suspicious that the things that are supposedly so deep in the subconscious that the consciousness mind cannot access them may be places where the human heart has access to the spiritual world, can he influenced by the spiritual world, and by accepting that influence, they are embodying outside spirits.
The evolutionary psychologist assumes it is all already inside a person by nature or nurture, but why can it not be an external "psychological" influence?
Check out Jesse Lee Peterson, Ralph Smart, John Butler. The kingdom of God is within. And while I like deep analysis of the patterns of life, the most significant pattern is always the simplest.
I thought the idea of there being both a God of mercy and a God of judgment was really interesting. Do you think there's a possibility that this idea was symbolized in the Old Testament through the Urim and Thummim?
💜
☦
If I were an angel 😇 I would be jealous too.
So, could it be said then that the angelic rebellion is an attempt to prove that humanity is unworthy or incapable of achieving the station our Lord has made us for? Am I understanding what you say here?
"There are two that can operate independently" with authority - Stephen De Young.
There are two. There is the Father and there is the Son. I don't know why we say there are two and then try to make two separate beings the same being. There are two the Father and the Son. There is the Son of Man (Christ), there is the Man of Holiness (God). One is God and one is Christ.
There are three, actually. Three persons in the Holy Trinity, each distinct, and yet also of one essence.
I get that you don't understand it. I don't either. No Christian has ever been able to explain it. That's why the Holy Trinity is acknowledged as a mystery.
@@ericlammerman2777 I agree there are three. I didn't include the Holy Spirit as I was hoping to focus on Stephen acknowledging the authority and independence of the two. I agree the three are of one essence, they are of one mind and purpose but they are not intwined physically or spiritually as one. They are separate and distinct with the same essence.
I don't have to understand trinity and I don't consider it a mystery. Why is the idea so shunned that the Godhead is separate and individual? Christ speaks to the Father on the cross, he does not speak to Himself. There are many more example. The Nicene Creed has created a great stumbling block for men in understanding. The Trinity is a principle by creed not by scripture. Scripture says they are distinct the creed says they are one. Let's folly holy writ before a council of men.
22:23 what is the difference between standing and sitting within orthodoxy?
Heterodox spanking, angels sitting is the album art for the best Black Sabbath album.
Within closer circles, I've got a friend from church who's mom does icons. I want to commission one of the prophet Isaiah, based on a picture I took of said saint, seated in the visitor center at Temple Square. I don't know if it is better to have him standing instead. (Shrugs, clicks send and play again)
Nice haircut Jonathan.
@Jonathan Pageau I would be very interested to hear you and/or Frs. Damick and De Young engage in conversation with David Bentley Hart.... Have you considered inviting him on?
There is a major notion beyond Rabbi Akiva from the Mishnah of Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai that the Son of Man is The 12 tribes of Israel, so to reduce Talmud to the two powers of heaven problem is quintessentially half of the mystery. I am Roman Catholic.
Is it strange to anyone else the angles can't move up the hierarchy but can move down via rebellion?
If I understand your question correctly, the Angels couldn’t move “up” because they were already as up as they could get
20:49 HaShem and Elokim
Greek East: Essence/Uncreated Energies distinction
Latin West: Essence/Actus Essendi distinction
Same orthodox understanding different language.
@@DixonCameronS can you point me to some good resources to understand what you are trying to say, about a quarter way through your comment I realize you are using alot of vocabulary I am unfamiliar with.
@@DixonCameronS Yeah, I am aware that they are not exactly the same but the point was to make clear that we do understand like you said the notion of uncreated grace and the distinction between who God is and what he does. And also there is a problem with thinking that the eastern theology is not part of our theology as if the eastern Catholic Churches are not part of the Roman Catholic Church. I wanted to start the convo because I am tired of orthodox using these topics as a distinction to separate them from us, when the only true reason why the east and the west are separated is because of authority and not too much about theology specially not about the issue of distinctions between God Essence and his uncreated powers.
@@DixonCameronS But I do believe that Saint Thomas Aquinas has more distinctions than Saint Gregory and the oriental churches, many people think they understand him when in fact they don't (even Thomists). Being someone, for example being me and the essence of me are the same, the difference is that being me is potency in respect of the act of being (actus essendi) in which I participate, that is, God. Participation for St. Thomas means to have an act or formality in a limited, imperfect, particular way, which is received from one who has it in an unlimited, perfect and universal way. Saint Thomas makes a distinction between "Divine esse" and "esse commune" For St. Thomas, the
esse commune “is that intrinsic principle, that act of being (actus essendi), found in
every existing entity, that is, every substance, which accounts for the
fact that it actually exists. We can only know that God communicates his being and we can make distinctions between him and his acts, and his acts as uncreated and substantial for every created thing but can not know the how do they connect how is it that he makes that happens, we can know that there are different ontological levels, and that we participate in him potentially since he is the one that actualizes our level of participation through his graces (which Saint Thomas distinguishes on different levels sanctifying, actual, habitual, charismatic graces they are all supernatural but the effects are natural), and we can understand all of this by analogy but we can't understand God's act of creation directly since that would necessarily mean that we know God in himself and that's impossible, so we can categorize the distinctions in Greek, Latin, in a Thomistic, Franciscan, Palamist manner yet the true important thing is that we live saintly lives, and for that you don't need a bunch of theological and metaphysical distinctions, you need theological and human virtues that allow you to live how God wants you to live. Worrying to much about "deification" can lead people to act like occultists searching for enlightenment, and that's why the Roman Catholic Church in her wisdom directs people in a specific manner through her different disciplinary and prudential actions towards theosis. In the end, you either act as the son of God or you act as the son of the devil and that's all that matters. Much love sorry for the long post.
First maybe
What time is it in heaven right now😂
Hebrews 11:6((N.A.S.B.))🙎🏽♂️
we mortals, constantly conflate, religion, with co-opted state sponsored religion.
At 42:50
Forgive me if i am misinterpreting but i do not understand what Fr Stephen is saying here.
Are we not beings with free will, that are reponsible for our own actions? Why are 'spirits at work' and how would they control us to do evil actions such as mass murder?
Please let me know so i can better understand this.
The spirits don't control most of us, nor do they really know us, they just sit on our shoulders and scream lies at us. Some of these lies are beguiling but once we entertain their ideas, they have a foothold and their pestering becomes easier and easier. Hence the need for constantly imploring on the Mercy of God. The spirits don't let up, even on the saintly, indeed if the spirits are ignoring you, it probably means you are working your own perdition and you don't need their help.
@@gillianc6514 thank you for your answer
The only reason I stopped watching Lord of Spirits is only because I use no apps and that the interface on AFR is so terrible. I missed a week and I lost track completely since there's no way to tell what you've watched (or listened to, rather), let alone how far into a given podcast you've gotten. Miss one week on any of their offerings and you are off the wagon for good it seems.
Good evening Sean - as it appears that you do use UA-cam, I thought this link may be useful for you. It's a playlist of all of the Lord of Spirits Podcasts which have been posted by the Ancient Faith Radio UA-cam page. I think there may be one or two missing, but it's a lot of very good content :)
ua-cam.com/play/PLRaKOYpbxRrG0izXOoWPB79WWgF4o76al.html
I do think omnipresence is a misnomer. A better word might be "superpresence", like supernatural. You wouldn't say God is "omninatural", that He is all of nature. That would be a statement of pantheism. In the same way omnipresence hints to pantheism. "Omni" suggests an amrphous blob or a messy chimera type freak, who is all sorts of incompatible things at the same time. I think this is also what causes atheists to think that omnipotence is a self-contradictory topic. The "omni" prefix suggests that God is "inside" these concepts, filling them completely, but ultimately being contained within them. However, God is "above" these concepts, making Him "super" rather than "omni". He can associate and dissociate with all of creation as He pleases, and in any configuration, even beyond our understanding.
So, You could figuratively say that Atheists / Maerialists are dinasaurs? or becoming dinasaurs
Jonathan, will you interview David Bentley Hart soon? It has to happen!
Why is anyone interested in what that origenist heretic has to say?
+
Father Stephan’s voice sounds A LOT like DJ Vlad, it’s distracting when you’re only listening and not watching 😂😂😂.
I wish there wasn't such a hard dichotomy drawn between the faith of the Orthodox and the Protestant.
For instance, why can't understanding "sin" as being "a power that possesses you" and not "you are evil" be true, and yet still acknowledge the agency of the individual in living as a "slave to sin" and hold ourselves accountable to the evil that the individual's actions produce in the world.
I do believe the overarching narrative of the good news is the story of redemption from enslavement to evil forces, but I also believe that there is a day coming in which everyone will give an account for the way they've lived.
Don't worry, that's not the divide. The Orthodox do believe in Judgment Day. This priest is simply mocking a lot of other Orthodox and Protestants for not sharing his particular take on human responsibility in the face of the angelic or demonic because he believes he's cracked the code. He is not wrong, but he's not right either. His stance can only be understood from the perspective of a priest looking to their flock, which is not the reality of the world, it's just the reality of the Church. Which is fine and well as a perspective, but it simply ignores what you point out. The Orthodox can afford to range the spectrum because ultimately, salvation is tied to repentance. And in that sense, it's at hand. We may pray and wish others took it, but it's up to each one of us to repent.
I would say to you that the differences are not those, but they are substantial and worthwhile, and I do pray you try to seek Orthodoxy. "You" cannot ultimately be evil, not because you cannot ally yourself with evil, which you can if you don't repent, but because as long as you live you may choose the good, and because evil does not really exist except as a parasite on the good (and it still does not have a real ontology). So damnation occurs beyond this life even if it begins here. Hope any of this helps. God watch over you.
Every Orthodox Christian goes to confession and in that confession the priest does not say " The bad spirits are to blame and you didn't have " a choice"
It is more like "Yeah, the spiritual war is serious and not unique to you but you can pattern yourself in a way in which these snake bites don't sting you" " stay alert and be aware and form your life around the Christ. "
@@ChristIsKingPhilosophy this was so helpful I wrote it down. Thank you.
@@ChristIsKingPhilosophy this was so helpful I wrote it down. Thank you.
Whoa! FSD somewhat insinuated that idolatry is to create a false hypostases of God - or rather you are abandoning the Triune nature of God whenever you try to force Him into a structure that is opposed to His nature? This is so profound! Idolatry is to reject the Trinity?
You have to make a new video addressing kanye west and his antisemitism and what's going on symbolically with what he's doing right now. Also I would love for Jordan to interview him is there anyway you can ask Jordan to do this?
I'm a confessional Lutheran pastor, big fan of S.W. and Jonathan, but I don't agree with De Young at all about this. I have so many problems with his teachings in this video. The connections between the Orthodox teaching on the Trinity did not arise out of Egyptian or Canaanite idol worship with their 'localizations' of particular gods, but out of the Jewish faith, a faith which utterly rejected pluralities of gods and even noted the impossibility of containing the one God of heaven in any temple (1 Kings 8:27). To say the "doctrine of the Trinity is a particular teaching regarding this" is not correct - historically (let alone theologically). On top of this; the historic and Orthodox view of this is one we find in the early apologists, men like St Justin Martyr. They would argue that these pagan ideas which might have a ring of truth about them come from the fact that the Logos is Truth, and that the Logos sprinkles the seeds of Truth upon Jew and Gentile alike. That is the Orthodox account for religious practices that have some Christian 'ring' about them. Philo is an example, though to what extent an evangelist like St John was dependent upon Philo is basically impossible to ascertain! Perhaps Philo was simply close to the Truth (Christ), and so he was blessed with a knowledge that hinted at the Truth of the Trinity. Someone else like Eusebius would say that the 2nd and 1st century B.C. Jewish writings (Enoch, etc.) which describe Messianic figures, the Logos, Wisdom 'personified,' and other proto-Christian elements are exactly that: proto-Christian. They are suggestive, anticipatory hints and glimpses of the truth that would be revealed after the empty tomb and Pentecost. They arose during a period of intense messianic expectation and brilliant Jewish philosophizing. It seems to me that De Young's approach has a very modern ring to it, informed by 20th century scholarship. Also, to say "God has more than one hypostasis" is also misleading and wrong. He does not "have" the way that people "have" personalities, or minds, or spirits. This sounds Sabellian, as if God has different ways of relating to the world or showing Himself. No, He IS three Hypostases sharing the One Divine Substance (three and one). And finally, the whole part about Daniel "re-mixing" the Baal cycle is oddly untraditional and unorthodox (and taken from modern, critical, Protestant commentaries). Read how the Fathers interpret Daniel and you'll know the Truth. Read Hippolytus or Irenaeus or Jerome on Daniel! The whole idea of a scriptural author, inspired by the Spirit, 're-mixing' pagan myth cycles, adapting them to his Jewish worldview, is quite problematic; rather, if there are parallels, it's because even the Canaanite religion had some vestige of knowledge about the divine power, or judgment, or fatherhood, etc. because the "Logos spermatikos" (sowing Word) gives seeds of truth that take root in the nations. "Son of Man" is only found in a variety of places because Christ, the Son of Man, has left His mark on the minds of His creatures.
right?
If God the Father is never seen, then why is he depicted as seen in Dan 7 as the Ancient of Days?
@Jose Thunderdome no I am that I am isn't flow state
And that intro explains why 'fractal' is the wrong word.
So what you're telling me is that the Bible is also a time travel science fiction story, where Jesus dies and becomes the beginning...It's like we've struggling for 2000 years to build the vocabulary to tell this story properly.
The laughing tick is disturbing i just cant take it someone should break it to him to stop that habit.
Yes. True. It detracts from the messages.
I can't stand. the laughing.
I'm so sorry.
But I still learned something.
Way off….
Me too, he is smart, has an interesting thought, but that random laughing makes me turn off the video everytime i see him. I dont hate the man but its just....ughhh.
“Patterns change with authority, that’s how it works” no.. that is how it works in your mind for your faith to still stand.. patterns change when you create a pattern interrupt, you don’t need a priest.. that’s just controlling peoples faith by telling them someone has more spiritual authority because off a position they’ve given themselves. a Priest coming to a house and cleansing with holy water is literal witchcraft, that is a ritual and spell being done with an artifact or talisman.. It’s just NLP(neurolinguistic programming) yes it works but it can be explained aside from religion, it’s just a process of life
There are authorities on spiritual matters, and those aren’t necessarily priests or preachers. In my experience, they are rare people, but they do exist, and they seem wiser than the rest of us.
They do not give themselves authority, but others recognize their authority.
@@joefilter2923 authority is a horrible word to use.. immediately putting yourself in a subservient position. Being more wise doesn’t give anyone any authority over me.. that’s a word used by church figures to psychologically son people and give themselves power
@@Bolden47 brother ... you've got something like a thousand hours of historical Orthodoxy/Christianity to catch up on before you go down this rabbit hole. I would strongly advise against just talking and not understanding actual Christianity that was handed down from Christ to the Apostles and then to the early Church Fathers and all the way down to us now. This is what Christianity is: anything else is just a different religion.
@@Bolden47 I understand where you are coming from, but I have to disagree.