This movement's starting seems to be accessible for upper intermediate pianists, but as we progress in, we understand this movement is actually upper advanced in level.
Waldstein = first piano piece by Beethoven to feature notes higher than F6. Brand new piano! There is a constant "joke" within the first movement that the original F6 limit cannot be surpassed (i.e. measure 150). He doesn't actually get past it until m. 72 with F#6 finally reached. At m. 228, he gives us three more new notes: G6, Ab6, and A6. Beethoven literally unveils these four totally new notes, ONE AT A TIME in the piece! I've never seen a youtuber talk about this.
This is a super fun fact! Love it. I know the general range of the pianos Beethoven used, but wasn't aware of this specifically in Waldstein. I'll pay attention next time I play it. I'm imaging a rock concert with a huge light show and every time Beethoven bangs a new high note the whole crowd erupts.
@@ryanabshier yeah, in sonata 28 he gets a single new note on his piano, low E. in the last movement he uses it and writes "contra E." Before. this point, he does not go below low F. The opposite of the Waldstein, especially as he does this in the third movement not the first
Beethoven was a time-traveller: he continued the work of Haydn and Mozart, was influenced by Bach and Händel, but propelled music into Romanticism; and then, even into the 20th Century ("Große Fuge"), Jazz (Op.111) and now we discover even Pop ("Waldstein"). Some people doubt Homer wrote both the "Ilyad" and the "Odyssey", given some differences in style between the two. Now, just imagine if we didn't knew with certainty Beethoven has written in all of those different styles: starting with the almost still Haydn-esque Op.2 Sonatas to arrive with the "Große Fuge" which sounds almost like Strawinskij, in just about half a century of carreer he actually has written music which seems to span for three round ones!
From the title, I was initially expecting the famous ‘boogie-woogie variation’; but then, as soon as I saw “Waldstein”, I knew which bit you had in mind! To me, the aspect of that passage that has always felt the most pop-music-like is the strong sense of syncopation in the 6 notes of the melody line starting from when it first hits the high C.
I made a video over a year ago about Op. 111, so yeah, I thought some people would lean that way. I'm glad you knew where I was going with it though. It shows me it isn't only my ear that heard it. Like I said in the video, I was just innocently reading this piece one day and boom, that pop sound grabbed me. It's cool others heard the same thing (or at least you did and there are at least 2 of us).
Oh, as my brother (who is a pop musician/singer/producer) pointed out. It's more like pop music progressions from 20-30 years ago. I'd probably agree. It's like, Op. 111 is pop music from the 40-60s with jazz, Waldstein is the 80s-2010s. Now we just gotta find the sonata for 2030 and predict the future, lol.
If we took the basic characteristics, goals and intentions of pop music, then we found out that prehistoric music was way more similar to pop than classical music. Same with secular songs of ancient and mediaval times.
Semi-retired pro trance producer here: he also invented (hard) trance. Anything that famous producers like DuMonde, Scot Project or Alphazone produced can be traced back to common practice period classical music but especially Beethoven. His motif-based composition style works very well in electronic dance music, whatever the style might be, because it's ordered in time and not a free-flowing lyrical melody line like one would get from Mozart, Chopin, or Mendelssohn. It makes it easy to fit a melody into a 4-4 beat with a buildup always consisting of series of 8 bars. Trance is also one of the few popular genres in which V7-I progressions are more popular than modal harmonies btw.
Have you heard about the Korg poetry? It's a digtal piano that has an 1843 Pleyel Piano sound and a modern Italian grand. It's dedicated to Chopin. It's 2000 USD
I'd love to, but it's a difficult topic because I'd want to play examples. I just hate dealing with copyright issues and the potential of a studio coming after me. It's a hard gray area. A lot of people just do it until the day they get in trouble, I tend to play it safe. But if I could find a way to do it safely/with permission it'd be super fun.
Dude! You should host a program I created in my fantasies called "The Young Person's Guide to Classical Music" on our local classical music radio station. One of the pieces I suggested was "Any Beethoven piano sonata with a nickname, other than Waldstein." You are correct, Beethoven presaged pop music but he was so good at it that modern day rockers usually blow past it. Great video, thanks for posting.
That would be fun. Hope that's what this channel can be like. A place with legit info about classical music but done in a fun presentation. Hmm, I wonder how many "named" sonatas I've done a dedicated video about...? Some people call Op. 111 "Fate" so that's 1. I did Pathetique, so including Waldstein I think I've done 3. That's a super fun idea that. A series of the named sonatas. I've played 6 of them I think. Oh Oh! I did a video about Pastorale too, so 4.
Awesome. Yeah, Waldstein was one of my favorite pieces to learn as well. It's a funny piece where the hard parts aren't what everyone things they are (I mean, that's probably always true of Beethoven). But such a joy to study.
That's true. It'd be fun to cover those later pieces since they are so much less well known. Even I've only taught a few here and there and looked through them a while ago. I'm sure I'd learn a lot too.
Pachelbel's famous chord progression re-appears endlessly in pop. Mozart's Andante from the 21st piano Concerto is a "swung" 4/4 like a tragic pop ballad. And his "Birdcatcher Aria" from The Magic Flute could be a cheesy 60s or 70s pop song (the original Birdie Song perhaps). Bach has elements of Jazz etc. You could make a case that all of the famous composers contributed something to pop music.
One of the older videos on my channel actually is an overview of that sonata. I'll out a link here if you're interested. Just to warn you though, it has a terrible thumbnail and I talk much slower, lol :ua-cam.com/video/eW461AGpniA/v-deo.html
I really enjoy your videos, and this one was great, I've never really loved the waldstein but this might change my mind! Quick idea, what about a video on the 15th sonata? I saw you ranked it really high in the sonata ranking video and its a really underrated piece in my opinion thats really accessible compared to stuff like waldstein or the last 5.
Hey there! Thanks for the kind words. It's great to hear from you and know you're enjoying the videos. You're actually in luck, I made a video about that sonata a few months ago. Mostly focused on the crazy rhythm. I'll put a link here but in case it doesn't work it's called "Beethoven Forgot how to Count in this Sonata - Analyzing Op. 28" ua-cam.com/video/ADUPgrwx6Ho/v-deo.html
Oh really? I can't think of where it is? I know the chords for Heart and Soul and I've played Pathertique, but the two aren't coming together right now.
This makes me so happy to hear. I really strive to have good, solid teaching and education, but keep things fun and lighthearted at the same time. Super glad you enjoyed it!
Beethoven was a huge influence on pop star Billy Joel. He even "borrowed" the tune from the Adagio movement in the Pathétique Sonata for the chorus of his song "This Night." You could even say (when the sonata theme returns over triplet accompaniment) that's when Beethoven invented doo-wop!
One composer whom I think is also exceptionally modern is actually Schumann. Just listen to the third movement of his Piano Concerto. The 2nd subject of that movement is almost identical to Beethoven's Waldstein And there's one section in the coda that sounds like an anime. Also, the 4th movement of the Wanderer's Fantasy by Schubert has a section that has the exact same progression as Hotel California. Crazy, isn't it?
That's a great point. I often tell my students things like "this would have been weird for _____'s time" "in that day composers didn't do this". But with Schumann it's sometimes like "this still feel progressive 200 years later."
For sure. Actually one of the older videos on my channel I talked through Op. 111. But that was about a year ago and I should totally do another video about it
Looks to me like a fairly standard circle-of-fifths progression (actually reverse circle-of-fifths, roots moving down by 4ths in the subdominant direction from C to A), then F, the 6th of A and the subdominant of C, back to the tonic C, then C suspended over the dominant G, resolving to B). Ain't nothing in harmony that Bach didn't do first. Dunno why in pop/rock/jazz notation the only recognized dissonance is a suspension, when there are so many others, like with a C major chord you can add a dissonant, D anticipating the dominant that follows; or you could add a stresed F, resolving onto E (aka appogiatura); or the F could be a passing note between E and G: or you could go F-D-C (cambita), or F-G-C (echappe), or F-G-D-C (changing note), etc. etc. Why reinvent the wheel?
Hey there. I actually did a video on that piece a year ago or so. One of the older ones on my channel and I would to redo it sometime. Here's the link: ua-cam.com/video/eW461AGpniA/v-deo.html
This movement's starting seems to be accessible for upper intermediate pianists, but as we progress in, we understand this movement is actually upper advanced in level.
Waldstein = first piano piece by Beethoven to feature notes higher than F6. Brand new piano! There is a constant "joke" within the first movement that the original F6 limit cannot be surpassed (i.e. measure 150). He doesn't actually get past it until m. 72 with F#6 finally reached. At m. 228, he gives us three more new notes: G6, Ab6, and A6. Beethoven literally unveils these four totally new notes, ONE AT A TIME in the piece! I've never seen a youtuber talk about this.
This is a super fun fact! Love it. I know the general range of the pianos Beethoven used, but wasn't aware of this specifically in Waldstein. I'll pay attention next time I play it.
I'm imaging a rock concert with a huge light show and every time Beethoven bangs a new high note the whole crowd erupts.
@@ryanabshier yeah, in sonata 28 he gets a single new note on his piano, low E. in the last movement he uses it and writes "contra E." Before. this point, he does not go below low F. The opposite of the Waldstein, especially as he does this in the third movement not the first
The Waldstein is one of the greatest wonders of music ever
For me it is the finest piano sonata in the classical structure.
Beethoven is one of my favorite composers of all time also. Let's see.. J.S. Bach and George Gershwin... Just to name 3. Hey Ryan, nice work.
Thanks for checking out the video, glad you enjoyed it! Can't really go wrong with Beethoven
Beethoven was a time-traveller: he continued the work of Haydn and Mozart, was influenced by Bach and Händel, but propelled music into Romanticism; and then, even into the 20th Century ("Große Fuge"), Jazz (Op.111) and now we discover even Pop ("Waldstein").
Some people doubt Homer wrote both the "Ilyad" and the "Odyssey", given some differences in style between the two. Now, just imagine if we didn't knew with certainty Beethoven has written in all of those different styles: starting with the almost still Haydn-esque Op.2 Sonatas to arrive with the "Große Fuge" which sounds almost like Strawinskij, in just about half a century of carreer he actually has written music which seems to span for three round ones!
From the title, I was initially expecting the famous ‘boogie-woogie variation’; but then, as soon as I saw “Waldstein”, I knew which bit you had in mind! To me, the aspect of that passage that has always felt the most pop-music-like is the strong sense of syncopation in the 6 notes of the melody line starting from when it first hits the high C.
I made a video over a year ago about Op. 111, so yeah, I thought some people would lean that way. I'm glad you knew where I was going with it though. It shows me it isn't only my ear that heard it. Like I said in the video, I was just innocently reading this piece one day and boom, that pop sound grabbed me. It's cool others heard the same thing (or at least you did and there are at least 2 of us).
Oh, as my brother (who is a pop musician/singer/producer) pointed out. It's more like pop music progressions from 20-30 years ago. I'd probably agree. It's like, Op. 111 is pop music from the 40-60s with jazz, Waldstein is the 80s-2010s. Now we just gotta find the sonata for 2030 and predict the future, lol.
Amazing video! I REALLY thought you were going to talk about the progression in mm 440 to 445. I didnt think of this on though. What a great sonata.
I want to hit the "like" button multiple times 🤩🤩🤩
Haha, nice! So glad to hear you like it!
lmaoo knew the piece from the blurred thumbnail
Haha. That would make a great livestream. Guess the pieces from a blurry picture
Also another beethoven piece that really feels modern is the second movement of the 23rd sonata apassionata
If we took the basic characteristics, goals and intentions of pop music, then we found out that prehistoric music was way more similar to pop than classical music. Same with secular songs of ancient and mediaval times.
Semi-retired pro trance producer here: he also invented (hard) trance. Anything that famous producers like DuMonde, Scot Project or Alphazone produced can be traced back to common practice period classical music but especially Beethoven. His motif-based composition style works very well in electronic dance music, whatever the style might be, because it's ordered in time and not a free-flowing lyrical melody line like one would get from Mozart, Chopin, or Mendelssohn. It makes it easy to fit a melody into a 4-4 beat with a buildup always consisting of series of 8 bars.
Trance is also one of the few popular genres in which V7-I progressions are more popular than modal harmonies btw.
Have you heard about the Korg poetry? It's a digtal piano that has an 1843 Pleyel Piano sound and a modern Italian grand. It's dedicated to Chopin. It's 2000 USD
Interesting. I looked it up and don't think I've seen it before. How cool would it be to record videos on a vintage keyboard sometimes.
Great video! What do you think about making a video on your favorite pianists/recording artists?
I'd love to, but it's a difficult topic because I'd want to play examples. I just hate dealing with copyright issues and the potential of a studio coming after me. It's a hard gray area. A lot of people just do it until the day they get in trouble, I tend to play it safe. But if I could find a way to do it safely/with permission it'd be super fun.
Fantastic video! I love the Waldstein, but never thought about the progressions that way.
Thanks! Glad you liked it. Yeah, hope next time you listen you can hear the pop-ness popping out at you.
I'm glad your fav sonata is Waldstein! :D
It's the best. Can't help speaking facts, haha.
Dude! You should host a program I created in my fantasies called "The Young Person's Guide to Classical Music" on our local classical music radio station. One of the pieces I suggested was "Any Beethoven piano sonata with a nickname, other than Waldstein." You are correct, Beethoven presaged pop music but he was so good at it that modern day rockers usually blow past it. Great video, thanks for posting.
That would be fun. Hope that's what this channel can be like. A place with legit info about classical music but done in a fun presentation. Hmm, I wonder how many "named" sonatas I've done a dedicated video about...? Some people call Op. 111 "Fate" so that's 1. I did Pathetique, so including Waldstein I think I've done 3.
That's a super fun idea that. A series of the named sonatas. I've played 6 of them I think. Oh Oh! I did a video about Pastorale too, so 4.
Nice video! I'm actually having a great time learning this piece
Awesome. Yeah, Waldstein was one of my favorite pieces to learn as well. It's a funny piece where the hard parts aren't what everyone things they are (I mean, that's probably always true of Beethoven). But such a joy to study.
Some of his bagatelles seem to foreshadow ragtime as well!
That's true. It'd be fun to cover those later pieces since they are so much less well known. Even I've only taught a few here and there and looked through them a while ago. I'm sure I'd learn a lot too.
I also like how the first movement begins with left hand 8-notes that serve the same function as power chord rhythm guitar in rock.
It's true. And on muddier pianos it's basically distortion, lol. But joking aside, they are very thick, low chords and I completely agree.
Pachelbel's famous chord progression re-appears endlessly in pop. Mozart's Andante from the 21st piano Concerto is a "swung" 4/4 like a tragic pop ballad. And his "Birdcatcher Aria" from The Magic Flute could be a cheesy 60s or 70s pop song (the original Birdie Song perhaps). Bach has elements of Jazz etc. You could make a case that all of the famous composers contributed something to pop music.
Could you please make a video about that famous passage in Beethoven's sonata nr. 32?
@@sskuk1095 the Jazzy one in the last movement?
@@ryanabshierI think you're right.
One of the older videos on my channel actually is an overview of that sonata. I'll out a link here if you're interested. Just to warn you though, it has a terrible thumbnail and I talk much slower, lol :ua-cam.com/video/eW461AGpniA/v-deo.html
@@ryanabshier Good to know, thank you!❤
6:00 Summer Nights vibes
I'm gonna go re-work the Waldstein and live perform it.....god help me.
Oh cool. Re-word how so? Make it harder?
@@ryanabshier lol, rework it.
I really enjoy your videos, and this one was great, I've never really loved the waldstein but this might change my mind! Quick idea, what about a video on the 15th sonata? I saw you ranked it really high in the sonata ranking video and its a really underrated piece in my opinion thats really accessible compared to stuff like waldstein or the last 5.
Hey there! Thanks for the kind words. It's great to hear from you and know you're enjoying the videos. You're actually in luck, I made a video about that sonata a few months ago. Mostly focused on the crazy rhythm. I'll put a link here but in case it doesn't work it's called "Beethoven Forgot how to Count in this Sonata - Analyzing Op. 28" ua-cam.com/video/ADUPgrwx6Ho/v-deo.html
The first 4 chords of this progression also appear in the 2nd movement of Telemann's Viola Concerto in G, fun fact.
The Pathetique Sonata has the same chord progression as Hoagy Carmichael’s “Heart and Soul”.
Oh really? I can't think of where it is? I know the chords for Heart and Soul and I've played Pathertique, but the two aren't coming together right now.
@@ryanabshier Middle of the codetta of theExposition. Left hand plays I vi IV V in E-flat major.
There are places in his pieces where you can identify build ups and drops over and over again.
Your video is the most funny music video ever! My wife asked me from the background: what is he doing?
This makes me so happy to hear. I really strive to have good, solid teaching and education, but keep things fun and lighthearted at the same time. Super glad you enjoyed it!
Beethoven was a huge influence on pop star Billy Joel. He even "borrowed" the tune from the Adagio movement in the Pathétique Sonata for the chorus of his song "This Night." You could even say (when the sonata theme returns over triplet accompaniment) that's when Beethoven invented doo-wop!
One composer whom I think is also exceptionally modern is actually Schumann.
Just listen to the third movement of his Piano Concerto.
The 2nd subject of that movement is almost identical to Beethoven's Waldstein
And there's one section in the coda that sounds like an anime.
Also, the 4th movement of the Wanderer's Fantasy by Schubert has a section that has the exact same progression as Hotel California.
Crazy, isn't it?
That's a great point. I often tell my students things like "this would have been weird for _____'s time" "in that day composers didn't do this". But with Schumann it's sometimes like "this still feel progressive 200 years later."
@ the way he writes his harmonies is just so unique but awesome
How about the jazz variation from Opus 111?
Flashdance What a Feeling
oh my god it really is almost the same chord progression as that song
I have no clue what this is so for legal reasons I couldn't have stolen it, lol.
What about op. 111 swing fragment in arietta? 🙂
For sure. Actually one of the older videos on my channel I talked through Op. 111. But that was about a year ago and I should totally do another video about it
Looks to me like a fairly standard circle-of-fifths progression (actually reverse circle-of-fifths, roots moving down by 4ths in the subdominant direction from C to A), then F, the 6th of A and the subdominant of C, back to the tonic C, then C suspended over the dominant G, resolving to B). Ain't nothing in harmony that Bach didn't do first. Dunno why in pop/rock/jazz notation the only recognized dissonance is a suspension, when there are so many others, like with a C major chord you can add a dissonant, D anticipating the dominant that follows; or you could add a stresed F, resolving onto E (aka appogiatura); or the F could be a passing note between E and G: or you could go F-D-C (cambita), or F-G-C (echappe), or F-G-D-C (changing note), etc. etc. Why reinvent the wheel?
Thank you, please could you analyse that kind of jazzy variation in Sonata 32? 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Hey there. I actually did a video on that piece a year ago or so. One of the older ones on my channel and I would to redo it sometime. Here's the link: ua-cam.com/video/eW461AGpniA/v-deo.html
@ryanabshier thanks!
And what about Waldstein 1st movement 2nd subject? huh? HUH?
He also 'invented' boogie-woogie lol
A chord progression so like pop that you had to *invent* two pop songs to pretend that pop has used it?? David Bennett would never have done that.
Flashdance uses it
Ehhh nah
Canon in d
Lol, let me change the title "Beethoven invented good pop music" 🤣