Follow Up on Tool Handle Oiling, More Ideas, Fact, Extrapolation, Etc.
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- Опубліковано 4 січ 2018
- A follow up discussion on oiling tool handles with linseed oil. Further thoughts and ideas, links, comments, fact, assumptions, extrapolation.
testing boiled linseed penetration on hickory: www.traditional-tools.com/sin...
pine/linseed study: citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/...
original oiling vid: • PENETRATION - SATURATI...
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This is a follow up video discussing some further thoughts on oiling handles stimulated by comments on the video. Also, addressing a comment and some links that are relevant as a window into the use and misuse of fact, extrapolation and assumption and the often inherent limitations of controlled experiments.
Here are the links mentioned and the link to the original penetration, saturation, coating video.
testing boiled linseed penetration on hickory: www.traditional-tools.com/single-post/2017/12/03/Penetration-Of-Boiled-Linseed-Oil-When-Applied-To-Hickory-Wood
pine/linseed study: citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.554.3457&rep=rep1&type=pdf
original vid: ua-cam.com/video/ueVi_NObci0/v-deo.html
I once taught kids science, then lost my mind for multiple reasons, but one of those reasons was that it became clear how very little *learning* happens when kids are "taught" in school. This discussion of oil-penetration experiments is one of the best things I've ever listened to on the TRUE scientific method. The point of the scientific method, at core, when stripped of academic prejudices against those who don't stand on their same Ph.D. pedestals. The best example of how and WHY a person would even want to learn the scientific method--wait, let's step back from those "conclusions" and take a look at whether it's going to change the way I treat my tool handles. Does it affect my life? Maybe it does, but maybe it doesn't. Does the question APPLY to my situation? Wait--what was the experiment really testing, and what did it NOT test?
It means backing all the way up to the *core* question: What is the true goal here?
You want your tool to last a long time without damage to the *axe head*, the *tool handle*, or your *wrist*.
TEST: Does the oil effect the interface between hand and handle? Are you more prone to bad mechanics with an unoiled or an oiled handle?
TEST: Does the oil effect the axe-head in any way? How?
TEST: Does the oil affect longevity of the handle? How?
They examined one parameter only--failure, aka a total break of sufficient fibers for the structural integrity to be completely lost, whether in compression (crush) or tension (shear) force. Well, you don't crush the fibers straight down like a log-anvil surface, ever, with an axe, and it's rare that you smack it against something so hard and so badly that you're exposing it to extreme sheer strength. Their test DOES NOT APPLY, it is in fact a TOTAL miss for the factors that affect axe handles with, or without, oil.
What could oil affect?
1. Fiber strength--crosslinks between fibers? coating on fibers?
2. Fiber flexibility--plasticity effect? lubrication between fibers?
3. Water barrier: could effect drying out of the inside, or penetration of water from the outside
4. Protection from attacks on the wood by micro-biotia such as fungi, protists, very tiny mites, etc.
It would take *hundreds* of experiments to answer all the questions posed in your video! Each of these factors would need to be compared in a controlled experiment: (Hickory; oak; ash; pine; spruce = 5 variables) x (linseed oil; boiled oil; turpentine-oil = 3 variables) x (immerse wood; few wipes in a day; many wipes over days = 3 variables) x (effect of strength; effect on flexibility; effect on water exchange; effect on micro-life degradation = 4 variables) = 180 unique experiments!
And even then, they'd need answer the chemistry and microscopic questions, the "how" and "why".
If I was still a teacher, I could use this video to teach High Schoolers the scientific method. Then I could teach chemistry by tawing muskrat hides; and go over to shop class and sharpen axe heads. Final exam? Here, I was given the gift of an antique scythe. Sharpen it and fit it to your body and explain all the things that went into peening, sharpening, and biomechanics. :D
Skillcut a short story back in the 50's I was with my grand dad at silver lake a and this man back out of his camp site over my grand dad's axe it was leaning against the splitting log pop it into . So when me got home he put a new handle on it but before putting the head on he warmed up a peace of cast iron sewer pipe he was a plumber plenty of that around the shop .He also put the handle in a steaming box he had, he made rocking chairs as a hobby . Any way he heated the cast iron pipe up with 2 old blow torches warmed up the oil poured it into the pipe then pulled the handle from the steamer slowly lowered into the oil . Today I am still using that axe .Just a story from an old man . Happy trails .
Cool story. Thanks for sharing.
I'd bet he put it in the steamer to dry it out
Steamer opens the pores for sure.
I appreciate your effort for clear thinking and clear communication. Much needed these days.
In the last few months, I've applied linseed oil to a variety of handles. The resulting finish was very desirable considering my limited knowledge. I wished I had 1)- applied more thin coats before the previous one curred facilitating deeper absorption. 2)- heat the oil and wood (sun) before application and during absorption. 3)- Use fine steel wool to apply oil smoothing out the handle and abrading the oil skin slightly possibly helping absorbtion and handle finish. THX for the video.
I do know this. I used to run dry kilns. Eastern hardwoods and softwood. I've read the dry kiln operation Manual from the University of Wisconsin wood lab and a bunch of various papers and books. I'm not sure of the finish affecting strength but I did do some studies on stiffness as a result of kiln drying. What we have is a measure of elasticity or modulus of elasticity. When you kiln dry wood whatever wood it becomes stiffer but also more brittle versus air dried which is more supple and moves, gives more. So for an axe handle air dried is a better choice. Better shock absorption and probably less wear on your hands as a result. As a sidebar years ago roller coasters were built with air dried wood as the coaster would move more and give a better ride. I just discovered you're channel and like it so far
Thanks for that. Kiln v.s. air dried kind of makes sense. Interesting about the roller coasters for sure.
I thought this discussion was really interesting. After reading the Penn State study, it dawned on me that the sonic propagation of an impulse load through the axe handle (like when the axe head hits a log) could be faster through a handle that is fully penetrated and saturated with oil. This seems the same as banging on a fish tank: how the speed of sound (mechanical wave) travels through different mediums. In trying to conceptualize this mechanism, it seems to me that the localized forces from the wave would be less with an oil saturated wood fiber than with a dry fiber because the force has a larger cross section to travel through, but the force doesn’t change. I would be really curious to see a mechanical failure test done with saturated and non-saturated samples through shock loading. The PSU study focused on cracking in the wood fiber and its affect when loaded with forces that would be seen in construction/semi-static forces, but didn’t focus on the forces seen in a tool handle/dynamic forces. Didn’t seem hyper relevant to axe handles specifically.
Thank you for all the info you laid out!
2 points of possible interest,
A guy I trained Filipino martial arts with(20+ years back) soaked some hickory broom bandles in a poly finish (filled some capped pvc pipes and let soak for 2 weeks or a month). In 2 years of practice the sticks did not break. Hickory sticks (untreated) would last 6-15 hrs then snap near point of impact. Impacts would range from 100 to 250 (rough approimation) per hour of training. His hickory sticks were used against rattan practice sticks and 1 short cycle against some polycarbonate rod I cut to same length. We were upwards of 40+ hours when I moved out of the area.
My observation: the nature of the wood fiber was fundamentally changed.
Guy I interacted with used 2:1 boiled linseed oil to mineral spirits as a waterproofing wood finish on; wooden lures and wood handled knives he made.
Working theory was the mineralspirits cut viscosity of the boiled linseed oil to speed penitration and cut drying time. A second coat (surface coat) would waterproof the wood.
I use this on my axe handles for the last 4-5 years. After the first 2 coats I reapply about once a year.
Thanks for the interesting comment. That would be an interesting test to do with linseed oil. Maybe just make two sticks of the same piece of wood, one treated and one raw, and beat them against something daily lol. It is very common to use turpentine with linseed to increase penetration. When the turpentine evaporates though, you would think that less oil would be left in the wood. I'm happy enough with the degree of penetration I get, and performance that I've never gone there. One of the projects I've had on the back burner for years is to do handle soaks in plastic like you said. I was going to use ABS and leave it in the sun. Maybe next year...
So I watches this twice. I watched it once with my wife and daughter but didn't catch all of it over their protests of boredom lol! I on the other hand found it fascinating. I too have a strong belief that linseed oil penetrates and improves the performance of a hickory axe handle when it is being used as a axe handle, how it responds to a hydraulic press is a entirely different matter.
I use BLO,unlike you but I am pretty happy with my results and use PPE when applying it.
Very interesting dialogue as usual Steven and I look forward to more on this topic.
Take Care Wade
I like the philosophy that came out of this discussion! Makes me think of the concepts of heuristics and utility. In lieu of empirical evidence we tend to invent stories that explain our experience and use such stories to guide future behavior in a positive direction. These placeholder "truths" (heuristics) may not turn out to be empirically correct but to the extent they yield good results they are "true enough" to have utility. Nor should the superstitious human gripping the handle be factored out of the equation. The feeling derived from the tool and the user's confidence in it are real factors in performance and outcome. I plan to put away my rationality and anoint my axe with some flax oil and magical rays of the Invincible Sun soon.
Good comment :)
Following your advice of using water stones to sharpen your tools with, axes, hatchets etc.. My new stones arrived today.. After soaking in water for several hours I put the stone to work on my pocket knife first.. I'm impressed .. The stone I bought is 400/1000 grit. Thanks for the information about these stones..
Excellent discussion!
I'll be glad to hear part 3 of this series. I am fascinated with the raw linseed oil mixed with turpentine. It's an old school idea that has gotten lost over the years. I have read everything I can find on the internet about it. Haven't tried it yet but I am getting close.
Anyhow, love your channel. Wishing you much continued success.
Thank you for sharing and happy new year.
You made some very good points about science and practical use. Also, you’ve got some interesting philosophies. I’m glad I found your channel, it’s refreshing to see a thinker and doer. I appreciate that you study old books, it’s important to keep the old ways alive.
thanks :)
This is what I needed to add to my experience with drying oils and coatings. I am starting to get interested in wood stabilization as well.
I'm glad to have facilitated further discussion. I too have doubts about the validity of a study on pine in regards to hickory but it was primarily the conclusion that gave pause to my beliefs that oiling my wooden implements was/is somehow beneficial. I, like many, have contemplated about whether to thin the oil in order to facilitate deeper penetration, how many coats how often, BLO vs. natural and to what good effect these actions may have. I wanted to feel like I was somehow making my implements better, I was taking care of them and in turn they would take care of me. That study, though limited in scope and perhaps application, made me wonder what if the exact opposite were true? What if I was weakening the structure of the wood? For all our machinations, our beliefs about everything, to have that suddenly perturbed is apparently very thought provoking. So I came up with a few of my own conclusions. I like the way a handle feels when it's got a good natural finish like oil on it, I like the way it looks and it clearly does provide protection against moisture which can be (potentially) more harmful than microscopic fractures... whether or not it has any other legitimate benefits or detriments I can't say for certain but of these I am certain enough and I am comfortable with my perceived benefits outweighing my perceived risks. But my main point was that even facts are only facts when you believe in them. Even from a scientifically produced, published and peer-reviewed study we have reason to doubt their conclusions, be it their methodology, other reasons or just plain "humans are fallible" facts and beliefs are mutually interchangeable. God exists is fact to some and belief to others and none of us are qualified to legitimately declare what's "true". Linseed oil, beneficial? Harmful? Or is "I don't know but I like it" and "other people belief it helps" sufficient excuse to keep doing it? Until or unless experience shows me a "better" way I'm satisfied with my conclusions.
Keep on keeping on, I like what you do here and how you do it. Thanks for taking the dissenting opinion like a scholar and gentlemen.
yeah, thanks for posting those links. It is food for thought. It seems feasible if not likely that similar application would affect other woods similarly at least to an extent, just not safe to assume. There may very well be similar studies on other woods, but I'm so unsure how to interpret data that I'm not motivated enough to go look and have to read that stuff lol. I was just thinking a lot yesterday about the subjectivity of fact. I think it's easy for us to confuse fact with reality, when reality just is and perception of it or fact are subjective as a human judgement. In the court they would say reasonable doubt or beyond reasonable doubt. I think that perception or maybe spectrum of confidence are a safer way to think. And likewise. Cheers
@@SkillCult What are reasons for oiling the wood? Beauty, water resistance, feel, scratch or ding resistance, slipperness/tackiness. I don't think water resistance really holds up though. Wood is water loving, so even with a coating, I doubt it will stay dry for long in a humid environment.
I use flax oil on my Blackstone griddles. It polyermizes with heat to a black non stick surface. It is basically the same oil as linseed oil, except food grade. This flax oil protects against rust.
Its not basically the same, it IS the same, flax oil IS linseed oil.
@@timc46440 but it is not boiled linseed oil, like that used on wood.
I’m really loving all your axe experiments right now, especially all the handle protection methods you are exploring. Recently I mixed linseed oil turpentine and pine tar with beeswax and am going to see how it works on a couple axe handles.
axperiments
Thanks for another great video and food for thoughts
Love your honesty
Enjoyed this discussion, Steven, especially the typed statement/challenge at the end! I am not so concerned with ""strengthening" the wood as preserving it from dry cracking and moisture intrusion, so the multiple application of raw L/S has been perfect for me, plus the tool feels 'right' in my hands! Thanks.
Cool, I'll be interested in seeing how more saturation works for other people.
I was waiting for a “yeah, well, you know, thats just like, your opinion, man”.
I appreciate your humility. We are wise if we have it. Ego is the enemy of learning.
Yeah, good to remember we all have those pesky egos and most of us are not very self aware. It's part of just being alive and human though.
I made my hatchet handle a couple years ago, i think it was a maple board.
I used cold pressed linseed oil and lost count how many coatings I gave it possibly 15+.
This was done mostly in a very hot summer where the handle was hot to the touch and the linseed bottle too. (left em baking in the 30°C sun)
However i had left the handle way too thick, so earlier this year I decided to scrape it down thin and oil it again.
I say all this because I can tell you that I removed about ⅘ of a inch thickness combined and in my case it was until the last couple millimeters of that ⅘th that I finally got clean white wood again.
So idk, with a maple handle and cold pressed linseed oil in a hot summer, you definitely penetrate into the wood almost half an inch on each sides in my case.
Interesting, thanks for reporting back.
Great video, I’m going out to my laboratory (shop) to experiment now 🙏
Great video, thanks. Use a similar method to you, but use cheap food-grade walnut oil, which takes around 10 days to cure in a cool ladder, but soaks into the wood quicker than flax seed oil does. My priories are aesthetics, waterproofing and low maintenance. Apart from a rub down with a 50/50 mix of walnut oil/beeswax now and again, nothing else needs to be done. You have the happy knack of making what appears to be a boring topic interesting. Looking forward to seeing more of your videos.
Cool. I got some of that and it was actually cheaper than linseed. Mr. Chickadee just uses rregular vegetable oil. I will try that soon. low grade corn, soy or canola oil is really cheap
When i first started mounting wooden handles into hammers hatchets axes i counted on a damp environment to keep things tight. Having worked on the water the somer months were used for out door maintenance paint varnish etc. i used those methods on handles, terpentine linseed on raw wood then as many coats of spar varnish three or more that has kept my handles smooth to the touch protected from sun and weather as hot summer wearher drys and loosens heads a good regimen of linseed oil and bumping up does the trick. Iinseed replaces the moisture ,water, keeps the head tight and gives the handle a protected finish . Good spar varnish may be over the top in some occupations . On a proud tug boat its the difference in pride in the work place.
Great video, Steven. Peer review is always really good to have when studies are referenced. But even with that, the number of possible variables is astronomically high with any natural product like wood. Even with wood from the same tree. Modern farmed pine is a far cry from the lumber of 50 years ago. But I think we're getting lost in the details a bit. In general, a properly used quality hickory handle is strong enough if you can find one with good grain orientation and straightness. Time and experience have given us a level of confidence that shows that to be true. Drying oils have, by the same time and experience, proven to be excellent treatments for tool handles. Are they the best? Well, "best" means opinion. Opinions are usually based on perspective and experience. Do I want a handle that can be treated once and left in the elements? If so, drying oils are a poor choice. But to those of us who use, care for and cherish tools and their feel in the hand, there is no substitute. Of course that is an opinion, not a fact. But it is an opinion based on long term, consistently positive results. I play with many wax, terpentine, oil, and pine tar concoctions. ALL have proven excellent to me. There are few things more satisfying than spending a few minutes sanding and oiling a neglected tool handle that would have left blisters and splinters in the hands and turning it into a better than new implement that is a joy to use. Whether it get to the core is irrelevant to me. If it weakens the wood, it doesn't weaken it enough to be measured in when used in my experience. So let's get out of the weeds and enjoy oiling up a tool handle or even some wooden kitchen tools(different oils recommended) to extend their useful lives and enhance their feel and beauty. I guarantee, the next time you pick it up, you'll be glad you did it.
The philosophy you describe here is the path to mastery. Once you think you know the answer, you become nearly incapable of learning anything further--but it sure is more comfortable than dwelling in uncertainty.
I was just having a conversation with someone the other day where they said the word "fact" and I replied, there are no facts anymore, just opinions. I find the best way to know anything is to try it for yourself. In doing so, you will learn much more than any "scientist" or "subject matter expert" could ever tell you. And like you said, most of these people are biased and are trying to use science to prove a point or support their bias rather than determine the truth of the matter. There have been times where I have done extensive research into a topic just to come out of it more confused and unsure that I started because different people have different opinions and interpret "facts" differently. It's a good practice to look at the whole picture and think about things for yourself, rather than just take what someone else said and run with it.
That was fun. Thanks
You're welcome.
Very interesting discussion. I liked how focus was directed towards how relevant these studies were to life. On the surface I find it funny that perfectly contradictory studies were used to try and convey a message. ie if incredibly little or no oil is absorbed how can it weaken the wood. Of course this shows the different characters of the woods beings used.
My take on the first study:
The first method of applying linseed oil to the surface once a day is, to my understanding, completely wrong if the aim is to get penetration. Probably the most important function of oiling wood is to prevent rapid absorption of liquids that could damage the wood over time, like water. Therefore after the first coat has dried on the first day it will not allow any more oil to enter the wood. This in itself shows how effective oiling can be. It also highlights how important it is too keep applying oil as soon as the "wet sheen" is absorbed by the wood. If you have ever oiled wood in this way you will know that time between coats lengthens naturally as oil is absorbed more slowly (this might indicate that the oil has some difficulty penetrating very deeply into the wood and therefore slows down). The next results are interesting. They show that, over time more oil is absorbed. The fact that not very much seems to be absorbed (compared to what?) means what? That should be what interests the guy doing the study. To me, this might indicate that it was very difficult for liquids to penetrate that specific wood. It may follow that (a). little oil would be required to seal this wood and (b). This wood may retain oil for much longer through the life of the handle.
I feel that such a study would have been far more beneficial if it didn't split the pieces after weighing them but instead submerged them in a bucket of water for the same amount of time before weighing them again to measure water intake. Splitting them after soaking them in water (compared to a non-oiled sample) would have been quite interesting I think.
The second study seemed quite well done. It took specific measurements and drew conclusions. As this video highlights, those measurements were not very well related to hardwood handles. first obviously being that those measurements were done on completely different woods. The second more interesting difference in my opinion is that an axe handle should be subject to no point loading (hard contact from localised impact) except within and at the base of the axe head's "eye", near the handle's "shoulder". Extra wood is usually seen on axe handles in this area for this very reason. As no point loading is seen down the slimmer portion of the handle, the only great forces that the handle should bear are distributed tensile and compressive loads, in-line with the grain. Therefore a far truer test to life would be measuring the strength of a strip of wood in pure tension (pulled between 2 points) to simulate what is happening near the surface of the wooden handle on one side at any given time.
It seems possible to me that oil may slightly weaken the wood's surface. However when compared to the weakening of wood due to weathering/rot/absorption of water/cracking etc. Which oiling massively helps to prevent, then it hardly seems like a compromise. "If" the wood is weakened a little by oil then would it make sense to use something else like varnish? To that question just try use a varnished handle for a few solid hours and see what you think ;)...
Nice video
As someone said, we may not need maximum strength either. It would be nice, but most breakages are user error.
Thanks for your thoughtful approach to this idea. As far as I can tell, I don't have any strong preconceptions on the subject, and here are a couple ideas:
As you mention, the kinds of stresses a working tool experiences in the real world may be very different than the steadily increasing loads to failure seen in lab tests. For something like an axe handle, it will see thousands of sudden shocks in its lifetime. It's more important that it can take those repeated stresses than that it can take one really big, relatively slowly applied stress. I'd be curious to see a microscopic examination of oiled vs non-oiled wood after, say, 10,000 blows at 1/2 the force needed to break the sample.
If this is the case, then oiling might be appropriate for axe handles but not appropriate for the cross beams of an apple press or similar constant, high stress, load bearing member.
Another idea: perhaps the microscopic damage actually increases overall toughness while decreasing absolute strength. By introducing uniform, microscopic flaws in the cellular structure, it might act sort of like a composite material such as resin impregnated fiberglass or carbon fiber.
Also, the Lab Coats are generally pretty smart folks. Good ones won't try to extrapolate from a single experiment, such as this one with pine sapwood. A good materials scientist wouldn't draw any significant conclusions without doing the same tests on as broad a sample of wood species and cellular structures as reasonably possible. Even then, the only strong conclusion they would draw is about the behavior within a specifically defined set of circumstances. On the other hand, you can find endless examples of folks on the internet jumping on a single example and assuming it's universal, the accusing of anyone who doesn't agree of being an idiot.
Either way, I like the way that first article ends. "In the end it's all a personal choice. Some people simply enjoy the process of oiling and maintaining their tools and that's just fine too." We're not talking about the structural integrity of skyscraper foundations or airliner wings. It's way more important that you actually use the tool than that you have a tool that could theoretically withstand 10% more force. If it makes you want to use the tool, by all means, oil the bejesus out of it!
Thanks good food for thought! Wood can gain flexibility through use for sure. I prestress/stretch a lot of hand drill and arrow shafts, because it makes them much less brittle. Either bending them a lot while dry, or with moisture. The concept of strength is pretty sloppy, since it could refer to many scenarios and stresses. I like the term resiliency, or yeah, toughness.
I don't think in either case they were making much in the way of unwarranted extrapolations. I'm sure it's frustrating for good scientists to watch data being misused. The media is always hunting for something to blow up into what a scientifically derived data set may mean to make something interesting.
@SkillCult , I understand that this is a relatively lengthy time ago, but I've come across your channel very recently and have watched a number of your videos, and have come to my personal conclusion that you're someone who can actually think.
That being said, I love being outdoors and working with my hands as much as possible. Unlike a lot of people, I will not and do not claim to be an expert on ANYTHING.
I am a former soldier who had to give various/numerous tactical briefings based upon "alleged intel," and during those briefings I usually stated that fact so that my teammates knew that that's exactly what the "intelligence" was: ALLEGED! We "prepared for the worst, but expected the best!"
Your thought processes are very similar to my own, and I appreciate that there are more attentive, thought-provoking, and astute individuals who are able to adequately express themselves in a reasonable manner. Bravo, good sir!!
I hand coated my axe handle several times for a few days using BLO 97%. Later when I carved back my handle I observed .2" penetration. Which is decent for me. It does change the harmonics of the handle and makes it more shock absorbing. And it slides and grips just right. From my own chopping experience.
I really like that you are going down this rabbithole Steven, its good to chase down these variables. That said, I doubt I'll ever oil my handles your way. I just don't have it in me to keep oiling a handle repeatedly like this. I typically give a handle one coat of linseed, then when that is dry I give it a coat of beeswax/linseed paste wax. When I occasionally feel like it I'll wax again, maybe once a year. This works good enough for me. I'm not going to say that your methods don't produce a better handle finish, but I'm happy enough with what my quick and dirty system does that I can't see enough benefit to switch. And I don't know how much it matters, but I seriously doubt that the old timers oiled the hell out of their axe handles back in the day. Not that doing it is bad, but I think it is safe to NOT do and get away with it. Handles are disposable ultimately.
I hear ya. I really like it a lot. There is something about it. I don't and won't do it to everything, but for a much used axe, I just do it is when it's around the house a few times a day until it's done. If person didn't take good care of handles, I think it could make a huge difference in preserving the wood and preventing shrinkage and checking. I should test that out sometime. I also think there is potential to control penetration and saturation using the stuff I mentioned to more quickly establish a cured rind of oil. That might make a permanent rind of cured oil that serves similar to the purpose of a finish, but never wears off. That way, you do it once, but there is probably no maintenance required for the duration, or at least very little at long intervals. So many handle experiments, so little time.
My counter argument is that an axe handle is not a gunstock. A gunstock on a well cared for firearm can conceivable last longer than the action and the barrel if used normally. If you are using an axe very very hard, you should absolutely expect to need to replace the handle well before the head has worn beyond its useful life. The head should outlast many handles, because the stress on a properly used axe is much lower on the head than on the handle, particularly on the area at the bottom of the eye, where there is the minimum cross section of handle and maximum concentration of stress and shock. So while it is interesting to apply all this time and effort to produce a build-up of polymerized oil, I don't see the benefit in time/effort for me personally. I'm perfectly happy with the finish on my handles, and I don't expect them to last forever. I'm not knocking Steven for exploring this avenue, I find it interesting, but I also can look at this oiling system and say "Overkill".
Good points all around. I'm curious how long the best hands can make a really good axe handle last. Given that I used my last everyday axe quite a lot of hard use with a compromised handle, I think it's very possible that I could be using my next one for a long time. It may be that some field tools are better candidates for such a treatment. I know mine frequently end up cracked and weathered eventually. Probably 100% preventable, but there is ideal, then there is my reality.
I think most of us aren't going to oil our tool handles to this degree, but I like to know there are people like Stephen out there who are experimenting with this. So thanks for sharing with us.
I would love for you to put together a more organized video on your epistemology. Really interesting--thanks again.
After watching the whole video I’m left with a couple of questions:
1. Are we really expecting a wood finish to strengthen the wood to any appreciable level?
2. Isn’t the point of a finish to prevent moisture from entering the wood, and if so why would you need penetration? Wouldn’t the outer layer do that?
If you watch the original video, I talk more about that. The cool part to me is that by saturating an outer rind of wood, you essentially make a compound material of wood and cured, polymerized oil. That rind serves the purpose of a finish to seal the wood, yet it never wears off and requires little if any maintenance. It also probably can't undergo most of the shrinking and swelling that eventually opens lengthwise cracks in the wood. Given that a handle is essentially rubbed constantly, that's pretty cool. saturating the handle all the way, for other potential benefits is sort of another topic. I don't know how deep my handles are penetrated or how deep a high level of saturation occurs. The possible benefits of deeper penetration and it's effects on the wood's working qualities and strength is interesting. I just don't have too much to go on. The concept of strength is somewhat ambiguous. as I said, a material with a higher breaking strength can't be assumed to be more durable under all conditions and stresses. I think I said toughness, but perhaps resilience would be a better way to think of it. It's like saying that cement is has more strength than lime mortar, but ignoring the sometimes superior resilient qualities of lime mortar. Which is better has more to do with application. Portland cement mortar is harder and has a higher strength under certain stresses, but lime mortar is less brittle and can self heal when it does crack, making either one the better choice, depending on application. Intuitively, it seems the the same might apply to wood. The idea that oil and or turpentine could make wood stronger or more resilient seems possible.
And thanks for watching the whole video, than asking me questions. I appreciate that :)
+Skillcult. Thanks for this and the previous video. I like the way you think. A few thoughts came to mind while watching this that I wanted to share. The first is that linseed oil is a component of a few traditional composite materials such as glazing putty and linoleum where some of what it brings to the party as well as water resistance is durability and flexibility. Good traits for an axe handle where shock absorption is easily as important as 'strength' per se.
Another thought was that perhaps un-cured oil inside a handle could be beneficial as an oxygen sink? After all oxidation of materials is often what damages them.
Thanks for getting me to think.
Your discussion on epistemology was spot-on - science is far from unassailable and unfortunately the applied sciences are almost entirely commercially directed these days. The experiment also only tested one definition of strength as you argue - there are many definitions. More important than resilience to a constant perpendicular pressure I would expect is flexion - that is how flexible the wood is. This is important as it means that the force is dissipated along the length of the handle not just concentrated on one point. When striking with an axe - just as you recommend thinning the handle to avoid the jolt resulting in pain in your wrist, etc - what you want is to increase flexion so that the axe curves along an ellipse - meaning that the force varies continuously along the handle. In physics it is precisely where the force varies discontinuously (is significantly different at two adjoining points) that something breaks.
Such an argument suggests that where an axe handle has higher flexibility (e.g. slightly plasticised by definition!) will survive abuse much more than one that is non-flexible and that a simple test of ability to bear a perpendicular load misses the point.
Their claim that boiled linseed oil (which is thickened to ensure formation of a rind) seems inapplicable as you argue. Linseed oil (mixed with turpentine) is much more likely to penetrate - surely the fact that there is discoloration to the core where you have done this confirms this fact. The reasons the linseed oil is better heated is because it is more viscous and can take longer passing through the (colder) wood until it cools forming a barrier to further penetration. The turpentine acts as a solvent meaning that the linseed oil is likely to pass further without solidifying. Seems their arguments are quite inapplicable to me.
Something that bothers me about diluting the linseed oil with turpentine is that, unless you specifically track it down, modern 'turpentine' that people are likely to buy is *mineral* turpentine - a petroleum product. Turpentine was originally an extract of (pine) wood and that's likely the stuff that historical data refers to. I have no issue with wood extract being used to soak wood but a petroleum distillate? Usually when you dilute something to aid application it's expected to evaporate at some stage. How can the turps evaporate when the linseed oil 'rind' forms an impervious barrier? I'm not sure I'm comfortable with mineral turps staying in the pores of the wood.
If I want to buy 'gum spirits' turpentine I need to go to an art supplies store and pay more than 5x the price of mineral turps for it. I'm not sure that everybody knows that... Just a thought.
I try things, watch others try things, and decide what I like based on experience. Papers do help explain my observations.
Thank you for the video, Very impressive. When wood dries, it becomes less elastic- "stronger". I think most times around 20%. Like an A4 paper that will be much stronger dry than wet. When the oil replaces the water in the pores, you are probably once again in the same "breaking strength" of green wood. liquid is liquid. To me at least, it seems like the key is to make sure that the oil hardens in the pores deep inside. That is when you gain again the trade of breaking strength to elasticity, and actually even get much harder than dry wood, because now instead of air in the pores, or liquid, you have solid material. Way stronger. Thank you so much for the research and video. I am not curtain in what I am saying. Just thinking with you.
Yeah, who knows really. Extremely dry wood seems to be brittle, but it is stiffer and then there is resiliency v.s. crushing strength and toughness v.s. hardness etc.
I rendered lard awhile back, coated a wood staff I'm making with it. It's done a great job... no weird things came of it I nthe wood or on the surface/in crevices....
Lard contains some drying and fatty acids, but it doesn't really polymerize much. I think the mechanism of failure in the pine samples may have had to do with the polymerization of the oil.
I use a 50/50 blend of tung oil and pine tar. I think it works very well, I notice a tough outer layer of dried oil. My question is once a handle is done soaking up oil and dried is there a need to oil in the future. I’m thinking that new coats of oil will not penetrate though the dried oil.
It pretty much seals it up. Unless you want an outer finish for effect, I doubt it would be necessary, unless maybe damaged by weather exposure.
Great video. I appreciate listening to you because you give some food to the brain, which should be "normal", but it feels more like unusual on UA-cam.
In France, the "art" of maintaining his doubt and suspiciousness about everything (especially about science, beliefs, media etc), in an non-psychotic way haha, is called "Zététique".
This "zététique" state of mind is mainly used by scientists, science popularizers, or philosophers, about abstract or intellectual matters. It's rare to see people apply this "healthy doubt" on practical matters as linseed oil saturation etc. Good stuff for the brain, less binary thinking, more careful thinking.
I always cut my wood with a chainsaw, by pure habit I guess. You just changed that, you shook my habits I guess. I've just ordered my very first axe, and I want to participate to the cordwood challenge so badly... Never thought I could be that excited about something like that.
Well... Just thank you for what it is that you are.
Cool. I'm not sure I can learn to say that lol. I'd say I'm as much about recognizing that our thinking may be sloppy as I am about being careful in thinking. I don't put in a lot of effort at deep thought as I actually process more intuitively, but I try to recognize that I may be proceeding on faulty assumptions and am only so smart. I see a lot of unwarranted and counterproductive arrogance and egomania in myself and others masquerading as logic. Have fun with that axe. It's all in the details. I hope to keep processing most of my personal firewood by hand, axe and or saw in the future, just because it's so satisfying and keeps me directly in touch with the real world an my own needs.
Here's you an expirement to try on a bare, hickory handle. Get a heavy duty plastic bag, just large enough for the axe head to fit in it & long enough to cover the entire handle plus a lil extra to tie the bag closed, preferably with a knot. Tape up the edge of the blade so it doesn't cut the bag, place the axe in the bag, hold the bag straight up & add about a pint of linseed/boiled linseed oil. Then slowly squeeze the ALL of the air out of the bag forcing the oil up toward the open end. When the oil has completely covered the handle by an inch ow two, twist the bag closed at oil level & tie it closed, again, preferably by tying the bag in a knot. Tie a long piece of heavy string tightly around the bag just below the knot in the bag. Now, hang the bag up on the porch & leave it for a couple weeks or so depending on the average temperature of the area you hang it in. The warmer it is the less time the handle takes to absorb the oil. By the way, I'm gonna try it on a bare, hickory handle I just hung in a riggers axe. I personally don't think it'll weaken the handle If it soaks in the oil for an extended period, but I guess I'll find out.
seems like it might work. Main problem I see there is you would probably end up wasting a lot of oil clining to the inside of a large bag surface. I've been thinking of a tube system, but haven't put it together yet.
I like to start with watco danish oil and tung oil then move to the very thin teak oil. One handle I mixed BLO oil with 20% matte urethane for last couple coats it made nice results but took a while to dry. Use like 400 or 600 grit in between coats. Heartwood does seem to soak a little faster tho , a friend of mine is a pro hardwood floor guy he said to water pop the handle before staining or oiling I haven't tried that tho
Oh, that might be a good idea. Then again, oil also will raise grain similarly, so I wonder if it will make a real difference.
Scientific Method requires a hypothesis, large sample sizes, a control sample, and repeatability. Tests produce data. Data does not become information until it is applied in the context of a theory. Information does not become fact until it has been repeated and peer-reviewed. But anecdote is the gold-standard of the internet.
Excellent philosophic discussion regarding the level of certainty we ought to have regarding ideas we consider to be "facts". Also I like that you pointed out the common error of false binary thinking.
Regarding the research paper: they tested ultimate breaking strength whereas a stress-strain curve might be more informative regarding tool handle performance. Maybe a better test would be cyclic loading with a load much smaller than the breaking strength to see how fatigue fracture is affected by oiling. Another thought is vibration: I wonder if the polymerized coating dampens high frequency vibrations to any significant degree - I wonder if an experienced axe expert can notice a difference in the feel before vs after an axe handle has been oiled.
I think what we need is a more personal view of our relationship with information. Away from belief and faith in theories, presenters, common knowledge or the high priests of religion and science, toward an honest assessment of our level of knowledge about anything. Easier said than done, especially when the language and culture are hell bent on expecting us to be in belief camps. I bet it does dampen high frequencies. It must change the character of vibrations somehow. May not be enough to matter though. Pretty hard to judge that in anyway resembling objective.
interesting exercise, information packets, i have been pondering this for several years now. How to capture clear and complete data on a subject. How do you distribute the information or how can someone that it would create value for, can have access to it. And then it got a little disturbing when I began to realize that soon all information will be electronic, and that if you do not possession of and access code well ... that is why I applaud your efforts to support and create self sustaining humans ... you will be the survivors and you will have so much less bullshit information in your lives to process. Live long, strong and independent ...
Thank You for high quality videos filled with your experiences Steve, keep up the good work. I think "curing" in context of oil polymerization could be the key here. If you have linseed oil in the jar and polymerized crust is formed on the top, rest of oil is pretty much sealed there. That could explain why the rest of oil in jar is not polymerized. But i think it is possible that this is not how oil polymerization behaves in naturally porous and fibrous structural tissue like wood. What if wood structure allows all of the oil saturated in handle to polymerize and form strong composite material with fibers of wood? Just saying it could be nice to see some studies with long curing periods of different levels of oil saturation in wood samples. I follow Your channel since your husqvarna hatchet review and i enjoy your videos. I wish you a lot of success and happiness in 2018.
I wonder if there could also be interactions of the oil with natural stuff in the wood that could either cause or prevent polymerization.
I had a hammer that I put standing up and kept putting a few drops of linseed oil on top where the wedge was. I don’t know how long I did this for but it was completely saturated. I thought this would make it stronger because it was more flexible but the handle broke very soon after that. It’s like the wood was very elastic. I truly believe that I put too much oil.
I know of shooters that have let old gun stocks get fully soaked in linseed oil and the stock was 300 gram heavyer then before. This is valnut wood,gun stocks from the war has often shrinked because of lack of treatment over the years. They usally use raw linseed oil,and also knows it penetrates deeper.
You don't sleep much do You? I say that because I admire your passion. I loose a lot of sleep as well because my brain won't shut down. I'm not on the level you are, but I get it. Lol
What I do, on my most uesed axes, (keep in mind I don't get to use any of my axes nearly as much as you), when I put it away, I apply a light coat of BLO. Side note, I'm currently experimenting with pine tar , BLO mix. In my mind, over time, the oil should penetrate deep into the wood. This keeps it from dry rotting or getting brittle. Also, adding flexablility to the wood.
Also have noticed some handles won't take oil like others. I mostly use hickory, some seem to soak the oil right up and others stay wet longer. Maybe density of wood?
Anyway, good video and topic.
I wake up too early a lot. I used to have trouble falling a sleep. I'm better at not thinking feverishly anymore. I usually watch dumb tv shows in the evening to switch my brain off. They say it's a bad idea, but it works for me.
I like the black and whit video. It seems to suit the topic also.
I do to, some people don't like it. I like using it where I think it creates more focus by removing a lot of distracting color. It also takes care of bad indoor lighting like yellow cast from lightbulbs.
Thanks for your reply Steven. I have a question off the linseed topic, about tanning. I have been asked to tanned a deer and small elk hide which have both been made into rawhide. If I recall you said in a previous video, to soak the rawhide first and the. proceed with the liquioring process. Is this correct? I do realise it is an extra step and probably better and easier with a fresh hide. Any tips on this procedure? You see it is your great instruction and my results that I now have 5 hides I'm being commitioned yo make into leather. One hide will be made into a Native type quiver, which is cool. Oh and one forgotton question about the test of oils on wood. In my ecperience I can tell if a piece of wood is air or kiln dried. Air dried is bendable and stronger, less briddle. So wouldn't you think this test should be on handle type woods of both air and kiln dried? I believe you can perhaps tell the difference ad well on your exoeriences? Thanks again and please include some more guitar playing in your vids. Perhaps in the background instead of chickens talking. Hey, not that I don't like the chicken singin. DaveyJO
It depends on what condition and how old the rawhide is very old rawhide can become set into shape and will not resoak or handle well. If it's only 2 or 3 years old, you should do okay. If it's already treated in alkali, soak and scape over the flesh side until fully soaked up, then scud and rinse repeatedly as usual to remove residual lime and junk. I'm assuming here that the hair is off. If it's not, then get completely soaked up and pliable before going to the liming phase. I don't work with processed lumber enough to tell the difference between kiln dried and air dried lumber.
Great discussion Steven. As you stated, drawing sweeping conclusions from a narrow scientific study is not how science works. Testing only one variety of wood with one type of oil is the definition of narrow haha! But that's fine! Maybe if the same methodology was applied to additional wood varieties, a broader conclusion could be drawn? That's how science works. Staying open to new data or facts (facts with a lower case 'f') is always the way to go.
It'a at least not how science is supposed to work, but given that it is actually implemented by fallible being, it does at times. the history of science will show scientists stubbornly refusing to believe things based on pre-prejudice of various motivations. We can design a bad study for sure. This one is totally fine as along as we recognize the limitation of scope. For lay persons, the danger I think often starts in the interpretation and extrapolation of the data. At it's best, science should be essentially critical and suspicious of almost everything, including itself and it's cronies, but it seems like it often cheerleads and protects itself. What would spock do? lol.
Hi Steven! There ain't nothing better than good long videos for these long dark winter evnings.
It's pretty off topic but I can't stay indifferent to the wooden whetstone holder. I've been planing to make one for a while since my tin one is leaking and it's a nuisance (and I will probably spend some 100 hours mowing this coming spring... sowed the clover already). I tried making one from a billy-goat's horn but couldn't get it to work well (didn't manage to put a hand on a suitable cow horn, unfortunately).
I figured I'll make one out of wood but as for yet havn't had any elegant idea as for how to carve the cavity... hot coals, maybe, but it'll take forever... I guess i'll have to split the thing in two, than carve it and glue it back together and wax it from inside so that the glue is protected from the water. That is, unless your trick is better! It probably is, I just hope it doesn't involve too many tools I don't have. How did you do it?
BTW, one of my long standing projects to try is tanning one from leather, or just sewn from heavy bark tanned leather and cooked like the black jack mug video. Probably sealed inside with pine pitch. Maybe a thick billy goat neck would be thick enough. I think neck skin might shrink quite a bit, which is good, because it will make it thicker. Unless you can get some cattle skin. That would be best probably.
Thanks. Boiled leather rings neat for it, and I actually do have a pretty thick bark tanned billy goat neck under my hand. I'll watch the black jack vid again and might give it a try. Pine pitch is not easy to get here, but if the holder comes out stiff enough maybe beeswax will do. I'll try the wooden version too anyway I think.
beeswax might be okay. It can be sticky and messy in hot weather. Does it get hot there? lol. Maybe there is another resin, or natural asphaltum? (tar)
Well, there's almond resin, but it seems to melt in water. Natural asphaltum is said to be found in the dead sea, but I don't recall ever seeing it myself and it's far away anyway... I'll start with beeswax I think - it worked allright for me for lining water gourds, and the bulk of my mowing is not done in the hottest season. If it will crack or will mess the whetstone somehow I'll make an effort to look for pines - there are some here and there in pasture, but they don't seem to be producing much resin, I'll take a better look.
Made it! cuir bouilli whetstone holder saw first use today! I have used the billy-goat's neck, which works great. It became very stiff - I threw it with the wooden mold into 90c water for over 3 minutes. I managed to scrape some pitch from local pines though it took forever, and ended up mixing it equal parts with beeswax anyway because the straight pitch wouldn't be more than half liquid at 100c, and I thought higher temperature might damage the hide (probably would have been ok, but I figured I'll take the chance another time). It was the first time for me to have boiled leather, and I'm sold, this is no less than amazing, honestly. I'll try a canteen for water soon. Thank you for the idea and the information (I also followed your advice in reading and watching all Rex Lingwood stuff I could reach, which proved very useful).
Some people just wanna pick the fly shit out of the pepper the point is if you wanna help your tools last longer oil them... great video
Hi. Steven. just reviewing this video. As you state re the test,I would of thought that testing the flexibility of the handle is paramount.
At what point of pressure does the handle snap when pressure is applied in a leverage fashion .
I find crispy untreated handles are far more likely to snap than than regularly oiled handles.
Greetings to you from a cold a frosty Cornwall in the U.K.
I have a friend who runs a shave shop. (The copper hat) He turns handles out of wood he has combined with resins. He uses a vacuum chamber and spalted wood and ends up with a very stable consistently solid material he can put on his lathe. I know a vacuum chamber is not in the spirit of hand tools with your hands. (If that makes sense). I'd love to try wood and hot linseed oil.
Brother from another mother, as always. I was in a 1 v. 2 recently arguing your point here, telling my naive friends that there is no easier way to lie than with facts. These are serious guys, one more so, but I could see both of them hurting as I drove home this idea. Both have built significant thought structures, and because they are so serious, have built their lives to be in accordance with those structures, kudos to them for that, they have an integrity that seems to be absent from life in the States, but their structures were footed on facts, good facts, testable facts, confirmable facts, but their footings equally excluded other facts, countervailing facts. There is the danger. Running a stress test on your world view, you can press, and at the deepest levels, yep, all those facts are still true, the integrity of the structure is reconfirmed, but those countervailing facts, man!, they're still excluded and left untested because they are outside of the structure. Such a dangerous place to be.
With all that said, don't you yearn for the ending of uncertainty? I feel heavily fatigued by keeping everything up in the air, never coming into rest as a solid, discrete fact. I'm tired of it, I'm at the point where I'd be happier to be wrong but able to grasp and use a concept just so long as it doesn't turn into cooked spaghetti during use.
You said we are binary people (assuming the full brotherhood of man), and that this maintenance of uncertainty is a learned behavior. I've got to disagree. For some maybe, but for people like you and me, coming from certain *danger* genetic heritages, this seems to be the norm, or more commonly the norm. And that is not to boast. Because we are capably uncertain, we can also see that this constant inquiry into the nature of everything likely has the potential to ultimately unwind the Universe itself, or at least to the extent where we exist within it. Pretty negative result, in terms of continued existence, if continued existence is desirable.
Anyway, I've been using an old... probably over 15 years old, bottle of Grumbacher cold pressed linseed oil (for oil painting). Have had excellent results with it. Silly waste of money, but I had it, wasn't using it, didn't want to spend the money on, or die because I used, BLO. Will definitely go the food grade next reup, as I've fallen in love with the feel of oiled wood, and it is going fast.
I think there are multiple dangers in being fact-centric. Life is an art, not a science and even if it worked as a science, that way of life is only suited to the pathologically neurotic OCD types. Sheldon Cooper and Spock would love that, everyone else would fucking hate it lol. Because science is basically organized around the establishment of truths, there is a natural, tendency to value established facts over other information and collect as many as possible. That approach can be applied with a great deal of mechanical intelligence, but it is unwise. Those facts have to be tossed into the mix with other information whether it is proven information, casual observation, theory, experience and even plain old intuition in order to act. It may take a great deal of mechanical intelligence for specialists to create a body of facts, but that doesn't mean they are relevant to every situation and should always hold rank over other information when we act or believe. For a person that values facts and thinks in terms of proven and unproven information, it is a natural tendency to suspect other information so much that it is easily placed in subjugation to information that is viewed as proven. In most realms though, what we don't know so vastly outweighs what we do know that it can be arrogant to think that the little information we do have is enough or the most relevant to the situation. The "evidence based" attitude that we act on the most proven information we have is very dangerous I think. The idea seems sound on the surface, but it is fraught with danger and the potential for stupid policy based on a minimum of information.
From the consumer side, if we accept facts handed to us too easily, then we are just engaging in the religion of science or temptation to believe, because to us they are unproven. A fact to you is here-say to me until proven otherwise. Some would argue that a fact is a truth, I would argue that it's a judgement that is transferable to those who want to believe it. Reality, or what actually is, is what a fact is meant to represent. I know some would argue otherwise, but it is a mistake to confuse terms with what they are meant to represent. I do think it is a temptation to believe, and I do have it, like anyone else. That is the problem and the struggle and the discipline against our nature right there. We gravitate toward belief and certainty, even when we have to make it up. The narratives we create are largely constructions to make us feel more secure and more certain in something. That is why there are over 4000 religions (wikipedia, but who cares, there's a lot), nearly all of which think they are the only ones that are right. To refuse certainty is to hang suspended in an uncertain universe. It is somewhere between uncomfortable and terrifying. At the core of some of our important actions is a discomfort with uncertainty. Acceptance of uncertainty is at once scary and liberating, but for almost everyone, it is conscious and I would say unnatural. What makes it tolerably comfortable for me in the realm of daily life, study and inquiry is that I recognize that we can still act and we don't NEED to know the truth about everything. That is almost the point. That is the liberating part. Humans have acted on scant knowledge well enough to keep us here for a long time. The idea that very little information is worthy of being considered bullet proof or entirely relevant doesn't need to prevent us from acting. Especially if viewing information on a scale of confidence, a lot of information and assumption can be considered probably pretty reliable and there is a lot to act on. BUT, there is still a huge difference in collecting a large body of irrefutable fact to proceed on and valuing that very highly, and thinking more in the realm of uncertainty and working assumption Good science, and more importantly good logical thinking, should hang more in that realm. The fact that it doesn't, to me, just indicates that science in some ways functions similarly to religion and for some is driven by the same discomfort with the uncertainty of the universe and our place in it. This is literally to the point where it is sold now as an alternative to religion, or something to believe in, or even referred to as a religion in a not ironic way.
I wouldn't argue that to believe and seeking that kind of comfort is not functional or hasn't served us. The biological imperative is to survive and reproduce, whatever it takes. It doesn't matter functionally if we are right or wrong about anything while we do it, pun intended lol. I'm a curious person and I like to understand how certain things work. I've just divorced the fantasy that we can understand the universe, or need to. I've also found that I can progress more in what I do if I think more in terms of how little I know and that I'm limited in my ability to understand the world, and to view information in context and understand it's relevance to any situation. I'm only human and I do still make unequivocal statements and hold beliefs of a sort, but under it all is that core philosophy that I'm dumb and so it everyone else and we don't know that much, and it ultimately doesn't matter. I like to understand things functionally, but it isn't an existential issue for me.
Really curious how you feel about walnut oil. My Grampa always said his Grampa used it. I'm 57, so that's some history. Not to mention, I can find raw walnut oil easier than raw linseed oil. It's at the grocery store in the baking isle. I use a several coat over several days process on my tool handles, and the wife makes cookies with it.
Be well, and have fun.
I have used it and I like it fine. You can actually get it really cheap on Amazon, sometimes cheaper than flax oil. I don't think any of those very drying oils are particularly standout when it comes to the simple task of oiling tool handles.
I'm only about halfway through your video, so I apologize in advance if you cover this topic by the video's end:
Question: Does anyone you know pressure-infuse linseed oil into the wood by placing the handle in a pressure pot full of oil? Just wondering if that's a legitimate possibility to improve the penetration of the oil into the wood - perhaps dramatically. How much pressure? I have no idea. Thoughts?
Steve
Several people mentioned it. It's a little high tech for me. Also, there is the question of whether we even want that or need it, or not.
I've been trying to find a video where you talk about a water proof pouch for carrying a sharpening stone into the field, do you remember which video you mentioned that in?
I just used two jar lids with wet rag inside for my axe puck. Maybe you mean a scythe stone? it has a waterproof belt sheath that you carry with water in it.
@@SkillCult it was the scythe stone, if you can't remember the video, what was the coating you used on it?
It's not a coating, I think that was probably the point I was making. I saturated it pretty deep with a hot mix of linseed oil, beeswax and pine pitch in porous redwood. Very cool. That way the wood isn't just coated. If the coating is breeched the wood is vulnerable, but if it's saturated, it's waterproof through and through. So goes the theory anyway...
Not sure about the video. It is probably on of my handle oiling vids, maybe penetration saturation and coating or the follow up vid to that.
@@SkillCult yeah, I wanted to try something similar but figured it would be a more intensive treatment than normal oiling. Thanks!
Someone gets it.
My favourite way of thinking with topics like this, is to ask not is this true/false but what % certainty do I have. It's a really powerful method. It's amazing how often you can discuss a vexed topic with someone and when you ask that question of them or yourself the binary disappears and you realise neither of you is coming from a black or white position. The nature of discussion just puts you both in the oppositional stance.
You could say that study makes it more likely than not that any wood handle has its strength compromised, but that in practice over many years it's not been noticed, whereas the benefits have so on balance it's still desirable? I dunno.
My only experience is with cell curing green timber. Traditionally tar but more recently with preservatives like copper chrome arsenic 😮. Boiling the wood so that as it cools it draws the substance into the grain. I don't know how effective that would be with seasoned wood, less I'd guess.
If you ever get to see the Mary Rose (sunk 1545) raised shipwreck it's fascinating that you can still smell the pine pitch they soaked things in. Seems to have worked!
I think besides the % or position on grey scale is to realize that is also very suspect and continually variable. You're right, the nature of people and discussion tends to divide or unify largely based on illogical thought or ego influence. People like to take sides and vest themselves in belief. I think that is related to this idea that action requires belief or certainty, which it doesn't.
I put linseed oil on my leather sheaths and masks to stiffen them and protect them against moisture.
I kinda want to use mineral oil. What if you know are the pros and cons?
I'm inclined to use drying oils so that they cure and setup. Mineral oil is 100% non drying. that is it's most valuable property and why mineral oils are used as lubricants now. You can count on it staying liquid.
An oldish, but new to me, axe handle, hickory, soaked up 30 to 40 liberal brush applied coats of raw linseed oil until I cried 'enough'. I didn't give each coat enough time to dry, if it had gone from the surface I just slapped another coat on. There is no puddle on my workshop floor either. At the same time I gave the handle of a small Collins axe/large hatchet the same treatment. It was, ahem, liberated from the Canadian army when they were over here, UK, during the Second World War. It's probably had at least one coat of linseed oil every year for 70+ years. The oil was just beginning to sit on the surface along the length of the Collins shaft but the endgrain continued to soak it up. Perhaps I should be confused about this drying layer.
I've had handles that were oiled in surface coats occasionally for many years that would take up oil still. I think once it's well saturated though around the surface and then cures, that would not be the case so much. i should test one of my more saturated handles that's older to see if the oil sits or sinks.
I use 100% all natural hemp seed oil (which doesn't have any harsh fumes or additives.) to rub down my wood handles and it definitely absorbs deep into the wood grain/core.
Recently thinned out my hatchet handle a little bit more to my likely (after a year of periodic oil treating of the handle) and when I went to hit it with a quick flame treatment after sanding and carving down the top layer of the handle I noticed that the wood didn't burn the way it originally did before i treated it with the hemp seed oil... like running the torch over the grain lines had little to no real effect on making the grain "pop" out like it did when it was still a dry hickory handle.
I also noticed that if I held the flame in one spot for to long, instead of just burning the wood the oil would actually seep out the wood pours and bubble up under the prolonged heat... like the flames heat was pulling/drawing the moisture out from deep in the grain.
Give it a try yourself, with an old well oil saturated handle, shave down the top layer of hickory a bit and see how it reacts to being flame treated compared to a dry hickory handle.
That should work fine. it is not as drying as linseed, but that may not matter that much as it is still pretty drying. I nevr flame handles. I don't really get Having seen arrows and bows break from scorching, it. It is hard to believe it doesn't lend a slight edge to breakage. Obviously a lot of people get away with it fine and it's probably not a huge factor, but it still seems like an edge against resiliency and avoiding the initiation of breaks.
I think of wood like a serious of long straws all glued together. It is a spongy material too, especially red oak. You can soak a piece of red oak in dish soap and blow bubbles out of the other end. I wonder if you had a really hot and dry piece of wood and very cold oil, and soaked the wood in the vat of cold oil....would the hot wood suck up more oil? We know wood likes to absorb water. Wonder if a thin oil would trick the dry wood into sucking up more?
warm wood definitely soaks up oil faster.
It would be an interesting experiment to test Handles in side by side comparisons. I'd like to put a handle in a vacuum chamber with BLO to see if a completely saturated piece of Hickory would be stronger than a dry piece.
I would just do a long soak. It more simulates real life.
@@SkillCult Could make a vacuum chamber with PVC pipe...and use an air compressor to pull vacuum ;)
I would think an oil that stayed fluid would be of greater performance for the core, with a hardening oil on the exterior O.o hrmmm
I am working on a Husqvarna multi-purpose axe. I burned the handle and got it a little darker than I wanted,so I sanded it back to raw wood and scorched it a little bit. NOw that I am oiling it with boiled linseed oil it is sucking up the oil like mad. I have two Hultz bruks and they don't soak up the oil like this one. now before I burned and sanded my Husky it was not sucking up the oil like this. I also noticed even though I sanded the handle with 220 I can still feel the grain. Did I ruin my handle?
I don't know, but it kind of seems intuitively that charred wood will be more porous. I've always been a little hesitant to char handles, but a lot of people do it now. I do like charring wood though and do it quite a bit for other stuff. Just not handles.
I'm not sure , haven't tried the water popping . you prob'ly have more experience than me. I just try and put coats on until it suits my fancy . I did notice increased blood pressure when handling blo might be something to what you said in a different video about blo
Could be the solvents maybe? They give me heartburn every time, but so do other solvents, or if I breathe too much gas or diesel fumes. When I use water to raise grain, it's to get rid of the fibrils that raise up, precisely because when I oil, I know they will raise. If I damp something off the lathe and then hit it with fine emery paper, like 600 or more grit, several times, the oil won't raise the grain. That's just the lines I was thinking along. Yet another experiment to try.
For last few years I've been treating my handles with is paraffin wax - heat the handle with hot air gun and wipe a 'dri-lube' (paraffin wax) stick on the heated part and it just melts in.
I used to use lanolin but that can take days to dry - the wax is dry as soon as it's cooled.
I always thought linseed oil too expensive for garden tools so never tried it.
cheap seed oils like canola or safflower, corn etc is proably fine. they are pretty drying. you can always smear some on a piece of glass and put it in the sun a few days and you'll see you much it gums up.
Pine and hickory is an apples to oranges comparison. Don't have hickory growing in NZ (at least, I don't think...) so only really know about it from all the tool handles. But... We do have pine (radiata), cypress (macrocarpa) and dogulas fir... And you'd never, ever make a tool handle out of those! Without pressure cooking them with copper/boron, they ALL rot. Untreated marcocarpa isn't too bad when used in the ground dry (as railway sleepers on top of subgrade rock...) or as a landscaping timber... But for anything where it gets wet/is structural..... they all just rot SUPER fast. In comparison, the native timbers (notably totara) can survive centuries in the ground as house piles/fence posts/retaining walls..... And it's usually totally fine. Kauri timber is even more insanely strong - "swamp kauri" is the old stumps/logs that have been seasoning under swamps for centuries... And it's still really hard and strong...!? (and valuable/beautiful).
My 2c is that....... Does it really matter if it does not penetrate deeply into hickory? If it coats the outside, and penetrates ~little bit, then it will surely seal out water because it's an oil... And that will prevent rotting. The rotten tool heads I've seen have all rotted/snapped at the head, where the wood is thinner and where it is continually abraded by the tool head and other forces...
I think that is a good question. The answer would depend on potential benefits or problems with saturated or partially saturated wood.
What about Norfolk pine. Or any of the ones they used in ship building?
Never thought I'd enjoy watching another guy oil his tool.
I would expect wood left bare will suffer more from it's exposure than it does from being oiled. It is possible fully saturated wood has a lower break strength. The open porous grain might provide some flexure that is lost when filled. But a long useful working life may never reach the level of force required to break the handle in a press.
Good point. a well cared for handle, that may not be an issue. My axe handles aren't likely to become cracked and weathered, but my garden tools do.
I feel certain extrapolations are much 'safer' than others. I haven't read the saturation study you're discussing so I won't pretend my opinion is in any way informed (my information coming from you, who freely admits you do not fully understand the detail). If the mechanism of the weakening is known then it might be extremely safe to assume the results apply to all wood types and all drying oils. My feeling on that is that if the drying mechanism of oil is affecting universal structures or properties of wood then it should apply to all oils and all wood. What you can't necessarily infer from that is the extent the effect will have on all wood types or the impact of different oils with different quantities of whatever enzyme, protein, lipid or whatever the compound is that makes an oil a drying oil.
Some oils may cause less damage, some woods may have a higher capacity to withstand that damage. Also, with a tough wood like hickory, how much of a safety factor does the handle have in the first place? Is it worth weakening the handle by 5% if that loss of overall strength prevents other forms of damage and degradation that might weaken the wood considerably more. If that is a trade off we make for preservation willingly then it is still the most logical choice for long term strength and usability.
I expect any study that could show things like that empirically would be truly huge in scope and nature, and nobody is likely to invest in the time, facilities and resources required. I expect 'Big hickory' and the cabal of BLO manufacturers are happy enough we will all carry on using something that has worked well enough for centuries, it isn't like they need to spend money to prove some new concept in the field of already vastly outdated technology. Sadly if you take a purely objective stance on wood processing and modern material science you end up with a chainsaw...
Definitely wood species will respond differently to oil. I have no doubt the oil could be damaging to some woods. Look at a variety of glues and how it responds poorly to some woods. But linseed use in Hickory and Ash has been proven since the Egyptians.
Perhaps I missed your bio video. Where did you get your engineering degree? You sound like so many of my engineering friends.
I'm not interested in schooling or formal trades, just a practical user understanding of how things work.
Maybe I missed this part, but was the sample for each method and press direction, a single piece or a statistically significant sample?
I didn't read it carefully enough. I will link and pin those links, I just forgot. www.traditional-tools.com/single-post/2017/12/03/Penetration-Of-Boiled-Linseed-Oil-When-Applied-To-Hickory-Wood citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.554.3457&rep=rep1&type=pdf
Thanks for the links. I read through the pine paper and the hickory test.
On the paper for pine, there is no information on sample sizes or data sets. Just summary information for test sets and conclusions. Interesting, but not enough alone to take as law in my opinion.
In the end, we all do what we feel works for our needs, available time, available material, experience, and desired effect. Is that wrong? Nah.
the whole video you are talking about saturation and the study, which i read in its entirety, was on "impregnation" two entirely different things. inpregnation is typically done under pressure not through soaking a surface or coating and draws the oil into the wood in this case. which in the study is shown through the electron microscope images and the oil causing micro fractures within the cell structures based on the level of inpregnation and depth or rupture or the pore spaces within the cell structure. my take away is this would weaken any wood, but what do i know, other than having studied geology and studying rock fracture and shear strength of mineral matrices, how and when or along what planes they break. coating wood is going to have limited saturation, uptake, and based on my limited knowledge impose little damage to.wood similar to a saturated soil holding so.much water, shove a hose in the ground and you are going to disrupt and destroy that soil structure...think rain and landslides
I'm not sure I'll go back and study on that to see if they offer a mechanism for impregnating the wood. Life is short. I'd like to spend as little of it as possible reading scientific papers and looking down a rabbit hole for more information on oil behavior in wood cells. As it is, we just don't know that much of what's going on in there with soaking. When I use saturation, I'm generally using it as quantitative, but obviously more full of oil than not. Hard to say though what's going on in there.
SkillCult I think you are on the right track with providing a protective coating in the form of saturation, my point was impregnated wood could be weaker regardless of the species and the structure of the wood damaged through a forced uptake of liquid, oil or chemical. Let's get a bunch of hickory handles and soak em and test them, saw them into rounds run a few tests on linseed absorption and longitudinal strength, blunt force impact of axis and then drink a few beers and have a laugh and see if we proved the lab coats wrong.
Yeah, I hear you. but if we don't know the methodology. I should go read that some more, but I don't wanna. wahhh. it's like being in math class or something, or standing in line at the DMV. bloody awful. There are probably more studies out there along these lines.
This is a little off topic, but I definitely see why you use raw linseed oil. I was using tung oil last night, and the bottle said nothing of needing gloves or other protection. But when using it you can smell the solvents added to it. Guess I was being a bit naive assuming it would be a safe ‘natural’ product. I will be switching to raw linseed oil from here on out.
yeah, unless it states pure raw or some such, I'd assume solvents. I bought a can of industrial stuff and it smelled of solvents as well, perhaps left over from extraction, because it seems unlikely that stuff is cold pressed. The health food stuff is probably always or nearly always going to be cold pressed, because the oil is so unstable and the point it to get it fresh and intact. One other possibility though is that the oils are curing and creating compounds that we may be mistaking as solvents. Drying linseed oil does not smell good when it cures. That is probably because we should not be eating it and your nose is saying don't eat that. I'm not that familiar with tung oil. I was able to buy some that says pure raw, but I don't think I've even busted it out yet.
Could just be turpentine, which is a natural product. Hear talk of people drinking a small amount to rid themselves of parasites. Something about a spoonful of turpentine and sugar to make it go down. DON'T DO THIS. I'm just saying I've heard this numerous times, and real turpentine is a natural product of pine trees, I think it was. Certainly love the smell. Do love the finish that cold pressed linseed leaves. Have wondered about teak wood, like on sail boats, I think my pops used... tung oil? Shoot, it is escaping me. But that wood always needed work... saltwater and sun. But I have to wonder if linseed oil could have been a better option?
I am wondering if anyone has anything to add in regards to using Camelina oil in this same fashion?
Is it in fact a drying oil as well?
not familiar with that.
Camelina oil is another of those interesting oils with a long history, particularly in Europe. It is classed as a drying oil. A quick search for a paper without the 'essential oil' blurb came up with this....... hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1993/V2-314.html ......amongst a few others.
Skillcult, you have a good attitude dude, very open minded. I will always go for wood or leather over synthetics, just feels right to me.
Cheers from the land down under. Ps can't wait to scrap the shit off an give it a good dose of raw linseed
I try. Open minded is the only way to inquiry. We know way, way, way, less than we don't know.
There is a information that it was not giving in details about a wood treatment about 40 years ago that make the wood stronger than steel and durable for years.
Is for you guys to figure it and the clou in tous days trying to figure it in my conclusion was treat the wood, maybe with sulfur, disolved in hot water, and soak the wood, how and how much time I don’t know never did it and it just came to me memory.
Is up to you to figure it up I don’t have the resurses and time to do this!
This is just a contribution of the I don’t know that I wish to know.
Thanks!
I have heard from Mors Kochanski that poplar was buried in manure to make it super hard and durable.
My dad in the late 80s would just put linseed oil initially and rub it with notebook paper. The heat from his hand and friction would put the notebook papers oil in the wood and would give it a nice finish I think it was just to keep the water from penetrating ! They always seem to work good for us but it is definitely curious to see the differences between over saturation and under saturation ! Thanks for the vid
I've found that most of what I've done in the past leaves the wood open to water and oil penetration. My idea now is that if that outer area is saturated, that is no longer the case, and that the saturated wood does not rub off.
SkillCult Definitely sounds like it makes sense . something with the notebook paper left a coating and would stop penetration been a while since I’ve done that I’ll have to try it again before I give advice
Don’t just believe something do something have your own experience it don’t matter what somebody else does convince yourself what works for you Believe in what works for you
Great Philosophical discussion. Fukuoka gives examples of the Myopic view science can have using monoculture as an example. He watched the destruction of the small Japanese farm over a forty year period. Check out the book, "One Straw Revolution"
Thanks. I've read One Straw Revolution. He always seemed a bit too much about the good news to me, but it's interesting. Every place and situation is different. We have to be adaptive. The myopia of science is a big problem in a system like a farm or soil that is infinitely complex. Exploration and gathering data is fine, but there is a rising trend toward over valuing scientifically derived information above all else. Just because it might engender a high level of confidence in what information is gathered says little about it's relevance. There is a place for science in agriculture, but it may always be as much or more art as science. At least a healthy diverse agriculture.
As an engineer with a heavy science background, I wholeheartedly agree with your comments in this video. Scientific experimentation is valid ONLY for the specific conditions that were tested. After extensive similar testing where conditions start to overlap or the gaps between those conditions are very small, then extrapolation starts to become valid. Blindly accepting poorly supported conclusions is causing great harm to people, society, government, the environment, and virtually all aspects of our existence these days. Be careful with "science" and "facts."
Yeah, we're preaching to the choir. Like any tool, it can be misused and abused, but try telling that to some people.
Was this recorded before colour?
For people interested, here are two more documents about linseed oil:
- Low temperature oxidation of linseed oil: firesciencereviews.springeropen.com/track/pdf/10.1186/2193-0414-1-3
- Understanding historical recipes for the modification of linseed oil: docplayer.net/149466951-Understanding-historical-recipes-for-the-modification-of-linseed-oil.html
Looking at the study, it seems like the damage observed is longitudinal, meaning the wood would split more easily because of microcracks, but that the weakening on the axis that we'd worry about with a striking tool (across the grain) was minor and mitigated.
So even if we take the study at face value (which we shouldn't, for reasons you've given) the concerns it poses aren't particularly serious.
One other observation is that they talk about the hydraulic pressure of the oil under stress, and never talk about whether the oil was allowed to cure. I can only take this to mean that the handles were tested "wet", and that the oil was not allowed to polymerize, making all their data completely worthless to us.
Interesting. I really should have read that more carefully, but like I said, it's one of my least favorite activities. Endless questions.
To test this, i would make handles out of 2 inch round dowels fitt the ends with a piece of pipe to emulate the eye, treat them 100 different ways, lock the pipe fitting in a vice then try and snap them
Those test are useless to me because there is no crushing force on an axe handle... The only forces on an axe are bending and impact... And the impact force is negligible if the handle is fitted properly
I think there are a huge number of variables. Any controlled lab tests still leave out at least a small element of real life. Testing by a person is very subjective and even removing as many other variables as possible, the human variable remains. As you probably have noticed as well, the time interval in which force is applied has a lot to do with how materials are affected. In other words, X amount of energy absorbed slowly v.s. quickly. If we want to break a stick with our boot, we know to impact it suddenly, not just with a lot of energy applied slowly. that may be what is called impulse in physics, I'm not sure though. A green stick will respond differently than a dry stick and it seems reasonable to assume that an oil, or oil and solvent, saturated stick will also behave differently, for better or worse, and maybe whether it were better or worse would depend on the nature of the stress. I could design neat experiments, and might, but there is always a limitation to the safe interpretation of data collected and extrapolation of the results. More data could be interesting though. It could also be an endless rabbit hole, not worth the effort. I'm most inclined to do what I'm doing and keep observing, or maybe treat some handles a few different ways, use them and make casual observations that might lead to insight of some kind.
On top of all that we are talking about wood! There is no constant!
After looking at the swedish research paper, I don't think that oiling your handle will weaken it's strength until after you have added so much oil that a 10 oz handle increases to 16 oz. Figure 7 only shows a moderate reduction with a 71% weight increase due to oil. Don't you oil the wood to protect it from moisture? How much moisture will wood absorb? Maybe 10% under normal situations? If you fill the "empty space" with an oil whether it dries or not won't that prevent the ingression of water?
Thanks. I really should have read that more thoroughly. If the space it totally full of oil, yeah, you'd think that would prevent the ingress of water. Tools that I've oiled occasionally for years will still take more oil, and can take on water too I think. Getting at least the outside more saturated seems to stop both for the most part. Once the oil cures, it can't leave and it can't continue to migrate and disperse in the wood. Uncured oil could do either, and I think it probably does.
What about vegetable glycerin
Hadn't thought of that one.
Data , I worked with med .students during my career time, they study literally, 24/7 , by the time they finish course study, that body of knowledge has more than tripled, peer review? Can be bought, truth is we don't know what we don't know. How much does it matter?
I'm of the moto kiss
Keep it simple
What that fellow does not understand about axe handles is the flex in use, where the head lags behind the handle. This, like a golf swing, gives you more power at impact when the head catches up with the handle.
I'm familiar with the concept but unconvinced it is significant. Just not enough data.
@@SkillCult I always swing S300 (stiff) shafts, because I was a player and hated to draw every shot., so I know shafts and handles do bend to some degree. Hickory handles do flex, which puts less wear and tear on your shoulders and hands, unlike those fiberglass handles which do not feel natural in my hands. Might as well be metal as that crap.
29:30 totally agree. I dislike the idea of absolutes. Add "Impossible" to that list for me. When I was a student an atom was protons neutrons and electrons. That's what we were forced to regurgitate...now we have a fistful of quarks and leptons and higgs or some such thing. Probably why I'm an atheist. I can admit that 'I don't know' but I'm not about to make a bunch of stuff up to make myself feel better or seem superior. Like you said. Keep asking the next question (s).
Athiesim basically gets right back to belief. An agnostic keeps asking questions about the nature of the universe and has to admit to mystery. The new atheistic/science cult-like mentality has become it's own religion with it's own high priests and unthinking followers, precisely by facing off with religion. Exactly the kind of polar thinking I'm talking about. People like to divide into sides because supporting anything the other side says is viewed as weakness in one's position. This is the quintessence of political thinking. The truth is lost in politics, because an end becomes the goal justified by any means because the short game is conceived as of paramount importance. Now the truth of any given religion I may have a very, very, very low confidence in lol, but in the end I actually know very little for sure. You can't argue with faith, it doesn't work. You can argue against the practice and the idea of faith, but arguing someones actual faith is like arguing with a person that they shouldn't want to eat a certain food. They just really, really want to eat it! But making an argument that faith and belief have little place in on the ground, nitty gritty, physical problem solving is easy, because it's a pretty easy argument to make. No one wants to go to court and have someone else's faith used against them, case closed. In the realm of logic, faith has no place. It has it's function to people as individuals and societies, for better or worse, and it's probably here to stay. Have your read Sapiens? Just started it, but he has a theory that humans are so successful because our ability to communicate allows group thought and belief in fictions like religion, money, government etc. If you look at it that way, you could almost see faith, one of our greatest follies as one of our greatest strength. That's the nature of the universe and humanity, facepalmingly silly, but profoundly powerful lol.
Read this. landinstitute.org/land-report-article/toward-ignorance-based-world-view/
Just a thought .. weigh the handle before and after .. my bias lies strongly with the benefits of oiling ✅✅
Someone should probably do that, I"m just not sure I care enough :)
SkillCult .. hey Steven thanks for your reply! I was going to leave a longer comment but didn’t think it would even come to your attention. Keeping it simple and basic .. firstly I appreciate the fact that you offer well thought out logical and philosophical comment in your videos. Onto oiling .. any oil that is absorbed needs to go somewhere .. my theory is that that oil fills pockets between/within the fibres .. these oil filled pockets act like shock absorbers?? Previously air filled pockets (easier/higher compressibility) would behave differently to oil filled pockets. These two different states will result in different breaking strains so with the test you described I might expect that the oil filled pockets (higher density) might solidify the timber allowing it to break at lower direct pressures. Air filled allowed greater singular point compressibility = apparent greater strength. But as you imply, in the use of an axe, is this the way the forces act on the handle?? Obviously not. My theory here is that this force is not linear but much more like a wave (shock wave) and in that case shock absorbers would be the remedy. All said and done we know that treating handles provide notable benefits without having to know exactly what the science behind it is. You know how much of what you do affects the way the handle behaves in relation to your hands.
The only time shear force comes into play is by striking the handle or cantilevering the handle against a buried head. Enough said.
Thanks for the simple wisdom you left at the end .. critical thinking is of benefit to all 🤔
SkillCult .. trust you are all right with the fires in California mate .. not sure where you are but you have been in my thoughts .. stay safe man!
Ok im only 12 min in .. and just thought to say, one can do an experiment on saturation just by using different timed methods as you have mentioned on an axe handle.. then cut it away to SEE how deeply oil may or may not have penetrated. That said, the use of oils are to create a “protective coating” = top coat layers... more so than “ deeply penetrate the wood”
What I favor is penetration over saturation, which is what this video is a follow up on. I think it makes more sense and I've had nothing but likeable results. But yeah, that's a pretty simple experiment, that I might do at some point, but I don't care that much. I get the effect and results I want and I kind of have other things I'd rather do with my time. Pretty simple experiment though.
Heres the previous vid ua-cam.com/video/ueVi_NObci0/v-deo.html