I kinda remember when it came out that the showrunners said they didn't want to intimidate new fans from coming in late to the series, so they didn't use Star Trek in the title. In theory, It was supposed to stand on its own as a sci-fi show & not just a Star Trek spinoff. Which explained why it disregarded canon sometimes. I thought that was stupid lol Why pay all that money for an IP and then not fully use it? They'd also have an exisiting Trekkie fan base right out of the gate. Slap the name Star Trek all over it & capitalize on it!
But like that REALLY matters... it’s just a damn title... if they had paid more attention to the quality of the show rather than how to call it, maybe it wouldn’t have been cancelled so soon
He was the best character in the show. Spiritual predecessor of McCoy and a damned good engineer. They could have ended it with him becoming captain not killed off anyone. Alas, Beta canon tried to rectify his death.
@@johnbockelie3899 No, the writers and producers of 'Trek' just ran out of imagination and good will in their hearts and embraced violence and going "into darkness."
@@oddish4352 Well, Wang kind of deserved it with his occasional slack and sloppy behavior, that stopped his desire to direct an episode cold, and far more importantly, would have seen him depart the show, save for about the most meaningless accolade imaginable(#20 something in People's annual sexiest men issue), and likely an anticipation of a pushback in cashiering an Asian-American actor, when so few of them were in evidence. So Jennifer Lien was not extended, a very tragic outcome, in a number of senses, that doesn't bear going into here.
I didn't mind the Voyager episode with the Ferengi, as they were already established to have gone to the Delta Quadrant. It was a nice callback for loyal viewers. The other old faces, though, I can't a tightly justify.
@@seraphimvalkyrin4543 Eye of the Needle? I liked it. Over all I do feel the show did wasted opportunities. Character development wasn't nearly as good as it could have of been either. Wasted opportunities everywhere.
@@seraphimvalkyrin4543 I also liked the Romulan episode. It had a great build up for the crew finding a route home, and then when it was revealed that the wormhole not only traversed space, but also time, the disappointment in the crew was palpable.
He is my fave Star Trek Actor!!! I am a total fan. I wish they had a T shirt that has his name and pics of all the characters he played kinda like the Garak shirt.
@@MrSpacelyy I hear you. The introduction of Ferengi in the earlier series left a lot to be desired. I did enjoy the episode where they stranded themselves in the Delta Quadrant and how VOY wrapped up that story nicely.
Enterprise has an unforgivable last episode. The main cast are treated like guest stars in their own show, they kill off one of its most popular characters without any emotional payoff, and they could have spent the final season building up to the creation of the Federation instead of trying to force it all in 1 shot.
They had something like two weeks to throw it together. It was almost as sudden as the decision to can Firefly. Did that episode suck? Yeah. Do the writers, crew, and cast deserve the blame? No.
and honestly, i didnt like ezri at all. just finished my 6th or 7th run of ds9 few days ago, every time i like ezri less and less. The actress is cool and all in interviews, but badly written in series.
Hot Take: They should have killed off Dax earlier. But hey, I'm a Doctor Who fan. You give me a character whose species main trait is being able to regenerate into a new body, I want to see it happen.
I liked Ezri Dax. It was Terry Farrell who decided to leave the show so they had to change the character. It was good that Ezri was nothing like Jadzia.
I actually liked the crossover between the two ferengi that got lost in TNG and the two that Voyager runs into in Voyager. However, that should have been one of an extremely few crossovers
For me: Neelix's character was caught wildly swinging between naive teenager and competent ship Captain who had interacted with many species and had his own salvage business.
I agree, a shit story with great special effects and great acting (IMHO). Any first-year drama student would have their ears pinned back for daring to submit such a crappy and poorly conceived pile of plagiarism.
We have to hide our interstellar spaceship from a tribe of neandertal-aliens. Where is the best place for that? - Underwater near a cliff directly next to that tribe´s territory! Really, WHO WROTE THAT BS? That is not the only insane (not in the good way!) idea, but just alone this one plot point should have led to the writer being laughed out of the building! And the script thrown into a garbage bin and set on fire!
It was pointless too in my opinion since the only thing it added was the revenge turmoil for Seven later, and they didn't even tell Jonathan Del Arco until very shortly before filming. His breakdowns in that episode were unplanned and real emotion. There was so much more potential for the character if he lived. I also felt the Icheb scene was pointlessly gory and over the top. Overall I loved Picard though.
Agreed! It's not that no beloved characters should be killed, but the way they are done in is very disappointing; in a couple of a minutes and their death without any contribution to the story! If, instead of watching Soji and Narek in bed, we learned more about Hugh's work and possibly struggles on the Borg Cube (with Soji's story just hinted on as she later becomes a leading character), his death wouldn't have been wasted. The same goes for Trip, Data ( at least ST Picard did something beautiful in that respect),
@@zunnoab well one of them had to die to drive 7, but icheb was definitely the more logical choice because his closeness to seven. I too think Hugh should have lived.
The Ferengi actually payed off a plot point from an episode of The Next Generation where an unstable wormhole was stationary in the alpha quadrant, but opened up randomly between the delta and gamma quadrant which stranded those Ferengi in the delta quadrant where Voyager ment them. It's a very rare instance of continuity in star trek, voyager especially.
@@paulmallon9033 well he wasnt trying to protect romulus he was trying to kill spock. And would the romulans really believe some random man was from the future ? I dont that's just my reasoning, anyway have a nice day.
Stupid poseurs screwing with culture to make their own mark. You see it too with other writers and directors who use names of famous movies for their own, or Tarantino glomming soundtrack music from older famous films for himself. Cheap, tacky, talentless crapola.
@@RideAcrossTheRiver ah yes using older music in a soundtrack truly the sign of creative bankruptcy ...... lol whut dude every movie released ever has had older music from somewhere in it
Concerning Kes, considering her life span, she is about 20 earth years old. The Ocampa have a normal life span of 9 years. Which mean they age much faster than humans. I would think this would mean they learn much faster as well. By Ocampan standards she is an adult or extremely close to it regardless of her chronological age. Because of that, I have no problem with her relationship with Neelix and do not believe it is improper.
The argument is pretty dumb. The character matches the age of the actress who plays her. I'm glad they got rid of Kes when they did, though. I found her much more annoying than Neelix. Neelix gets a lot of bashing, but he is good for an occasional chuckle, without which the show would probably be somewhat flat.
Balloon Systems : it’s good to know that someone else feels that the Kes character was cringe-worthy at times (not the actress, just the way the writers wrote for her to be). The relationship between Kes and Neelix didn’t seem real, like they were just going thru the motions of being a couple.
@@slcRN1971 One thing you can say for Voyager, they gravitated toward stories focused on characters that people liked, and set aside or eliminated characters who were less liked.
@@balloonsystems8778 In this case, the age of the character does *NOT* match the age of the actress portraying her. The Actress is some 24 or 25 years old. The character is 2 years old. A 24 or 25 year old Ocompan would be a decaying skeleton that had been dead for 15 years.
Ardenwolfe YES! thank you. Discovery should have taken place after the events of NEMESIS, hell even after Picard timeline. Nostalgia-bait and the obligatory tech retcon just don’t work. Either that or just be KELVIN like it clearly wants to be.
Do they actually say that on the show (Picard)? What parts they were harvesting? If so you're totally right. But, the cortical node was actually a tube that came out of the forehead, not the eyeball, so it's possible it's not an error if the eyeball is what you were thinking of.
@@contradictorycrow4327 bit late after I already did watch it. Try going back in time and warning me. The Enterprise prequel was entertaining enough, but should not have been put in the Star Trek universe. The fact they did so meant they were depending on the reputation and it was never going to work perfectly.
Have to disagree - the Kelvin timeline was pointless, as were all the Abrams movies. Prime universe has plenty of nooks and crannies to tell stories in, and there's no reason you have to pretend history stopped with Nemesis. And movies just aren't Star Trek's home. Inevitably, feature film Trek will revolve around grand set-pieces and big budgets (neither of which it does all that well), and will take years between installments. Put the show back on TV where it belongs. One thing that DS9 proved was that it wasn't the size of the playground, it's what you do when you're in it. DS9 did have alpha quadrant, but most of its storytelling revolved around its own neighborhood. Even during the Dominion War, we're mostly with the same characters in the same locations. There's plenty of room in the Prime universe to tell stories. The real problem with Enterprise was that Berman and Braga were burnt out. Bring in new people to run things, and you can revitalize the franchise without killing off the old continuity.
Berman and Braga are humans just as you and me and if you need money youre willing to do what it takes when the franchise goes into a new direction (same for patrick steward who willingly slaughtered his own character which made him famous and opend the door for other big AAA blockbusters just to get some extra $ sad old greedy marionette). As for the continiuation AFTER Nemesis there is actualy a storyline going on its called "Star Trek: Destiny " (Yes, its offical Star trek matrial but only in bookform) which even goes deeper about the faith of the borg (not to mentioned many other species like Q and so many more other i cant even count which writters of the new shows would have had so much more material to continue on but simply not allowed because order from above and LICENCE ISSUES). All in all a sad conclusion which were once great shows (more or less) into this dark mess we have nowdays
@@Mastercluster I disagree that he slaughtered his own character, it brought out emotion that was only touched on in the series and a little in the movies and alot of people loved, though yes the Picard series as a whole isnt brilliant. You can't call Destiny "official" though, most of the 750 books are, the voyager Homecoming books were "official" also, but as much as I enjoyed them I think it was a bad direction to go and they contradict destiny. I doubt licencing is an issue either, novels are a very cheap way to go, Netflix buy rights to books constantly and never use them, CBS just wanted something new, as did Patrick Stewart, he didn't want the same old character, he wanted something different the same as the Logan movie in the XMen franchise, I doubt I'd want to play the same tired character again after 4 decades. Its CBS who changed it up so hed take it.
I could have forgive the time line has it built up to story line where it became time had been meddled with and they needed to restore the original. I got the desire to just do some fun movies with the known tropes, unbound by the lore, but had it ret-conned it's self it would have been fine - Afterall the brain dead who enjoyed would not have cared, and the final movie could have had a lot of fun - Could have begun in the 24th century showing how things played out in the Kelvin timeline, and that things played out very badly - And finding a way to ungo Nero's meddling with Kirks life was the key to fixing everything?
Dude, there is a thing with Star Trek rights.... voyager was the last that had full rights, everything else that has the Star Trek name on it, by contract, has to be modify at least a 25% to be aired, thats why there are so many differences with new trek, and way it was stuck in prequels
Honestly idk why Enterprise was so unpopular... I actually love the series and I thought it was authentic and true to the original star trek message while still having it's own charm. Can someone please explain why they didn't like Enterprise?
Exactly, like TNG it sucked during it's first two seasons. It was getting much better in season 3 and 4 was just rushed as they find out they were cancelled.
The first 2 seasons of almost all star trek apart from the original series were spotty at best. I thought into the darkness was way better than the 2009 star trek movie.
Enterprise was getting better, too. Brent Spiner. Humanoid Klingons. Mirror Universe fun. And, the S5 plans: Shran added to the main cast, Elizabeth surviving, Romulans being obnoxious, and the Federation really starting to come together.
So... those were at least four mistakes from Discovery and Picard... yeah. Also, they should abolish all that prime and Kelvin nonsense and just decanonise the whole Abrams/Kurtzman stuff, and then follow up from Voyager‘s final episode.
Seriously give me Captain Sisko popping into a post dominion war alpha quadrant 3 decades later. Seriously why do idiots keep on circling the franchise back instead of keep moving forward?
I loved the series. The only thing I didn't like was the whole Xindi conflict. I know that since TOS and TNG exist, they make it out just fine anyways. Plus, it took away from what the series was all about: humanity's first years of exploration and discovering Klingons, Romulans, etc. That had so much potential.
Yeah it was finding its footing by the end only real thing I would change is the decom scenes and have some of the early episodes have some permanent consequences ie Trip getting pregnant.
enterprise is still the one I usually binge watch-put of all of the others it was the best at recapturing the feeling of exploration originally intended by TOS. If CBS hadn't screwed it up by trying an early attempt at CBS all access via UPN the show would've had a much more significant following than it had. I didn't even see an episode of it till the final season or so when it finally went on regular network. The show was doomed from the beginning just because of that. Now Discovery and Picard are different animals, they're doomed not just because of that but also due to shitty writing and their desire to use foul language beyond things like Data saying "oh.....shit" or Spock saying "I think if I were human I'd say to hell with you" when they were called back to be decommissioned in the Undiscovered Country.
We all knew it was a Trek series. That was never in doubt. But it was the first to not have "Star Trek" in the title, and that annoyed more than a few people. It was one of those inexplicably stupid decisions by Rick Fuck-This-Shit Berman, along with keeping that annoying theme song.
Anyone who watched it did, for sure. But I suspect the idea of putting Star Trek back in the name before it was to call in more casual folks who had seen it was on but not really paid attention to it, despite maybe having a passing interest in Star Trek. Try and play off the name recognition to draw in folks who hadn't bothered to give it a watch yet. Didn't work, but I can see the intent.
@@Uturuncu That's right. At the time, they noticed that the average age of the Star Trek viewer was getting older and older and they wanted to draw younger audiences to the show.
The insistence on making prequels to the original series annoyed me. Sure, seeing the formation of the Federation might have been cool if done well... but it wasn't. A series with Sulu as captain of the Excelsior would have surely been far better.
You can tell that, that was the plan, to show the "growing pains" of the Federations beginning. But with the cancellation, they "Game of Thrones'd" it. The final season could have been so much better, especially if they had gotten away from so much "time travel" arcs and got serious. I believe that much of the reason STE died was being victim of a bad time slot. Looking at the shows slotted around it, I seriously doubt many of those viewers stuck around for Star Trek.
Imagine the novel "Excelsior: Forged in Fire" as a TV miniseries. That ties up many loose threads and fills in gaps between TOS, ST6, TNG, and DS9, without ever breaking what was established canon at the time of its writing. That's what prequels should do. None of the onscreen prequels have ever managed that, so Abrams' solution of a new timeline was good. I wish Discovery had indeed been in the Kelvin TL, especially now that no more films are currently forthcoming. Its dark tone and extreme violence fit much better there than in the Prime TL, I think.
@@bobb4you Because the new shows are aweful. The writers have no understanding for the universe and seem to be more interested in pushing political agendas instead of telling intriguing stories. And of course: crying, so much crying.
@@Nodux359 Star Trek is ALWAYS in tune with the time in which a show or movie is made. What you actually dislike is how the world has changed. There are a lot of people stuck in the past and longing for some rose-tinted golden age of everything. Time marches on: adapt or go watch reruns. I personally feel that every incarnation of "Star Trek" has both stellar and cringe elements. I'm old but I refuse to be one of those "X was better in my day" curmudgeons who only play old music and hate seeing women or people of color or crying or LGBTQ+ people or whatever in their fandom. Shaking your fist at change just makes you look silly.
Deus Ex Deflector Dish. It felt like in every episode of Voyager they solved an obstacle they ran into by reconfiguring the deflector dish to send out a pulse or a beam of some type of energy. Just lazy writing IMHO.
So much this. Many of Voyager's greatest faults stemmed from the writers being forced to write the series in stand alone episodes, when they wanted the flexibility to tell longer reaching stories like the Year of Hell. After watching Year of Hell, I was completely pissed off that didn't become an entire season as it was easily the most interesting thing to happen in that series. Finding out it was SUPPOSED to be an entire season story didn't surprise me in the least.
There was always an element of technobabble in Star Trek scripts - it wasn't uncommon for the writer to add a notation of "TECH" to the script, and let the production staff insert some appropriate pseudoscience. But in Voyager, it tended to feel like they just used it as a crutch. "Oh no, we're about to be blown to pieces by an alien armada, how can we possibly escape?" "I know the perfect solution - we can just [TECH]!"
@@patrickkenyon2326 This isn't only true in Voyager, that kind of technobabble, as they called it, was invented for the Next Generation. It isn't only the Voyager that used the deflector dish for such things.
The Klingons were horrible and we were made to read way too many subtitles, which I find very distracting. This nearly put me off the whole show, but I slogged through, hoping for better as time went on.
Pluth... uou 'an' uweall' unnathann 'ouwa' thay're thay'inh wi' all th' p'wothe'icx 'n thay're mowthths, e'thr. Translated: Plus, you can't really understand what they're saying with all the prosthetics i their mouths, either.
It's a great decision they poked fun at themselves the second season though, in my opinion. I got a good chuckle out of the fourth wall breaking jokes about the hair and language.
@not hen hahaha true and sooo bullshit, and what about wollowits's wife (i dont know the names, never really watched it). But dang, two 10'ns dating a two 3'seses. Would have been okay if they got normal wifes instead of models, but thats tv💁🏿♂️🤷🏿♂️
Remember, these writers didn't even know that an ensign is supposed to make lieutenant after a few years. I guess in light of that, we couldn't really expect competent work from them.
Stikking with the prime universe.. how is that bad? There is a whole infinite universe to explore. But we have to create a new universe to tell interesting stories? Huh?
Maybe it's because of having so many years worth of canon to stick to. I think it would be nice to have a show that starts completely fresh and not hindered by any of the other shows
Well thought out points and respect them of course but don’t agree with point 1; I’m not exactly a die hard life long fan but I grew up on mid-late Voyager and Enterprise, then retrospectively fell in love with the rest. I think if you’re invested in a certain history and chronology, you don’t really want to see everything rewritten. The biggest crime for me was making into darkness at all, should have been something all new instead of messing with something so loved. Agree with Discovery having messed with things needlessly as well; it’s a big universe with so many stories, why try and tie things together only to mess with the continuity... I think a lot of these criticisms could also be levelled at Star Wars as well, whether it’s Lucas needing to write in characters like Chewbacca having met Yoda in Ep3 or C3PO having already lived with the Lars family (Ep2) only to be bought back in Ep4, and then the JJ changing the laws of Star Wars metaphysics in the new trilogy. Fans of these things do get invested; it’s not cheap thrills horror series, it’s not Fast and Furious, it’s something else where fans grow up in these other worlds... my tuppence
The problem with the alternate universe is that it rewrites trek history. And loses alot of things that it shouldnt. For me, losing the idea of a hope filled future depressed me. I look around today and see that hope is less and less presented in media, therefore less available to individuals who need something to believe in. If all one sees is the bad, they will stop seeing the good.
I understand this point, and can see its validity. However with ST, STTNG, Voyager and then the move to less idealistic series like DS9 and Enterprise you can see that it's following the public's desire for more gritty stories. Picard and Discovery all take a more series arc-based, darker tone. That's just how the TV inudstry is now, people (or at least the studios think) that people want distopia, not utopia. I can see both sides, but the market for a "monster of the week" type show is probably the smallest it has ever been. I really miss the way those show helped you fall in love with characters though. It's that slower pace that really makes people feel like they're on a voyage with the crew.
I'd say that Roddenberry's original vision of a perfect humanity was pretty boring for the purpose of telling stories. Narrative drama comes from conflict, flawed characters and overcoming adversity and that's why trek shows have progressively moved away from a holier-than-thou Starfleet. Honestly, I can't stand TOS because of how patronising and condescending the human characters tend to be! And it's not really that I want dystopia; it's that I can't relate to an unrealistic portrayal of a flawless utopia. I'd rather see flawed characters trying, against the odds, to do the right thing. Isn't that more inspiring?
@@travellinghat They do it because writing "gritty dark" stories is cheap and easy, and ultimately it's still just "good guys v bad guys" holier-than-thou. There aren't any "flawed characters" in Discovery just really bad (in some cases disgraceful - Tilly?) character writing... The trouble is that I quickly get to the point of "who would actually give this person a senior position"? Can you really relate to characters when you suspect that they wouldn't even get past the job interview at your workplace?
@@travellinghat It was so boring they made five television series, several movies, countless books, comics, and video games about it. Talk about a snore fest amirite? /s
About the "4 years gap between new trek movies" : I don't think the reason for the fail of this series of films is a question of yeargap. I think everybody slowly awakened from the JJAbrams spell which makes you think he can make good movies just because he makes rollercosters pumping you with adrenaline. 1 year is enough to formulate this thought.
If Into Darkness had been good, that 4 year gap wouldn't have made much of a difference. But it was chock full of stuff that you realized was stupid even before you walked out of the theater. (Like the opening that had the Enterprise hiding from primitive natives...AT THE BOTTOM OF THE OCEAN.) JJ Abrams and his collaborators seemingly always went for the cool-seeming image (Enterprise flying out of the water!) at the expense of making sense (why wouldn't the SPACEship hide from the natives by STAYING IN SPACE?) Beyond was a fun science fiction action movie that didn't weigh itself down with idiotic moments like that (or Spock's KHAAAAN, or the idea that you'd want a dude whose education was 300 years out of date to design hyper-advanced gear, or the model of the super-secret warship sitting on the desk of the guy who was conspiring to have it built...I could go on but I've gone on enough as it is). But I think it was handicapped by the poor quality of its predecessor.
@Matthew Caughey Amen, brother, amen. It's easy to get cynical. You're right, of course. I need to continue hoping that someday these intellectual properties (I don't think I need to list them) are once again in the hands of those who simply wish to tell good stories and not simply lecture us. (Both can be done, but that takes skill.)
I think they 'confused' quality with quantity. Just because there are two shows 'on' (sort of) at the moment and 'Lower Decks' and whatever the kiddies rubbish will be, and that the SFX and sets of the former two are 'very expensive and flashy' does not make any of them good. Nor does poor writing and wall-to-wall leftist intersectionality. What's on (and planned) now is likely to permanently kill off the franchise (the 'rebooted films' are dead in the water) or at the very least be on hiatus for a generation or more.
I would personally replace #1 with their reluctance to continue the Prime Universe. Nemesis, released in 2002, was the furthest we'd see for 7 years until Spock recounts his story in the 2009 film, and we don't see it again for 11 more years in Picard. I understand part of that was that the Abrams movies BECAME Star Trek as far as Paramount was concerned so they wouldn't want any Prime Trek to muddy the waters and consume more casual viewers but damn, given all we'd seen of the Prime Universe up to the point and then throw the destruction of a major power like Romulus wiped from existence seems like incredibly fertile ground for long-form storytelling. Given the fact that the events also played a major role in the first Abrams Trek film, I could see it enticing viewers from the Abrams films.
Interestingly, Lower Decks seems to be working to fill the gap between the end of the Dominion War and the destruction of Romulus. Yes, it is a comedy but even comedies can have great stories to tell and I've been very intrigued by the one being told by Lower Decks. Can't wait until we finally get Season Three! 😅☺️😁
“Spock RETCONS his story”? Uh, no! Even in the 09 movie, it’s explained that Spock created an alternative timeline, he didn’t retcon anything, and while yes, the Prime Universe at the end of the 24th Century and beginning of the 25th sounds interesting, but we already have Star Trek Online telling that story. Granted, STO may be Beta Canon, it’s still something to consider.
IMO, Enterprise was never 'getting good'. The only show that can start the series off with "Time Travel" as the plot hook should have been Doctor Who! They had all the possible story potential of a pre-Federation galaxy and they couldn't get away from the idea that it must be a time travel plot from the future to change how the Federation turns out. Did no one at UPN even watch Babylon 5? Look at their story.... Earth has expanded outside of our solar system... There have been 2 major conflicts with established species - the Dilgar, which they won and the Mimbari (jury is still out on that one) The parade of scandals... Money is still a thing.... The poor still exist.... All of it was gritty, realistic and believable and the only example of time travel comes in 'Babylon Squared' which left more unanswered questions than answered ones until season 3. BTW, there were consequences to entering an 'out of phase' time field without protection! Hey UPN - This is what real creativity looks like!
The way i see Neelix i always thought he's funny he makes me laugh, i never see him annoying but caring and loving and smart he also respectful, loyal and sincere. He's always there for his crew, solving problems, investigation, and comfort and he never gives up. And believe it or not Neelix is the main reason i finally smiled and laughed for the very first time when i was 4 years old before Voyager show came i was never a happy child i never smiled or laugh i was always quiet and grumpy even my family did everything they can to make me smile. Then one day i saw my brother watching Voyager and somehow i saw the scene when Neelix was all talking and mimicking about the crew it was on episode The Clouds when saw him first time and listened to his funny voice all of a sudden i slowly began to smile and giggle for the very first time and since then i continue watching Voyager everyday when it came on tv and started laughing so hard on Neelix funny scenes. My family were extremely shocked and surprised that i finally smiled. Thanks to the wonderful loving Talaxian hero Neelix he is a miracle. Neelix has been my most favorite Star Trek character ever since i never ever get tired of watching him. But i did became sad and i did cry so hard and sobbing when he left Voyager and my mother had to comfort me for hours. Somehow i still don't have the heart to watch Episode Homestead because it hurts me seeing him leave.... So i stick with the others continue enjoying him. I love Neelix so much he has a very strong pure heart and thats what i love about him. If i were in Voyager i would definitely want to marry him!!💘💘💘
@@piotrd.4850 They are all part of JJ Trek anyway, so it is all awful. it's so "successful' that absolutely no one is willing to distribute it internationally.
Creating the Kelvin Timeline was simply lazy and uncreative (regardless of how well-acted and talented the movies)... If they wanted to say something new, make something new. American culture as represented by the movie industry shows that the culture has reached the point in history at which it is dying because it now just repeats itself without creating any new ideas.
There are other timelines in Star Trek previous to it. The Mirror Universe is an alternate reality from the original Star Trek. I always thought that the alternate timeline described would not have allowed for the characters we know to have even been born, and was thus ridiculous, but alternate realities and time lines were a part of Star Trek from the beginning.
There has always been numerous timelines, that’s nothing new. The kelvin timeline is far more interesting and useful than people will ever care to give it credit for.
@@imkluu I only appreciated the Mirror Universe in TOS. After Kirk's impassioned plea to Mirror Spock to take command of his "Enterprise" the timeline would have diverged far too much to have the racial and character arcs that we would see in later appearances. I skip all Mirror episodes during rewatches.
Perhaps the biggest crime of all is that it wasn't needed. They wanted to reboot Star Trek with the "original" crew, they could have done it telling entirely different stories. Instead, they felt like they needed to justify shiny ships with an altered branch of reality, which alienated original fans (although you can easily debate the fandom's value, as it continues to refuse to evolve with new audience needs). And shootign the engine room in the Budweiser factory totally ruined my ability to suspend disbelief. It simply doesn't look like a ship's engine room. And certainly not a Star Trek engine room.
@@ian9outof10 that's really what did it for me too.... "real" starships would likely use some form of liquid coolant.. maybe some exotic compound, but yeah.. that was a "budweiser factory" doing a cartoon bit
If the show isn't set in the Star Trek universe, why should it interest a Star Trek fan? I want a continuation of the story I was watching. If you want a different universe, make a different universe and don't call it "Star Trek".
A show that does not have Star Trek in the title cannot use the Star Trek aesthetics. And any show is recognized first by it's main characters and second - by it's aesthetics.
Yeah, wish the writers had agreed what to do with him from the beginning. Here's a guy who is willing to lie, cheat and betray the Kazon, Janeway and new crew, and risk it all to save the woman he loves and then... next week... he's a jealous little twerp? Like, what?! SO INCONGRUENT! It went from Bonnie and Clyde to a ridiculous version of the Muppets. It was jarring and foreshadowed how they were going to do Janeway dirty later on. Character was only guaranteed for single episodes.
@@x--. when you say do the janeway dirty, could you elaborate a bit please? i dont say i disagree but im just not sure to what are you referring. and yes, neelix was my least fav charachter in voy, although with every new rewatch kim is getting closer and closer.
@@pavlenikic9712 It was a reference to a lack of coherence with her character. One week clever and considerate, the next wild-eyed and hell bent. I have a distinct memory while the series was on-air of wondering what happened to the Captain where she'd become so crazy unreasonable after her nuanced and well-reasoned behavior the week before. Now I can pin that on the idea that the writers were disrespectful of Kate's character. She became more plot contrivance than person, in some instances, and others they would build up a conflict with her and then resolve it with a hand waive. In fact, in another VOY video on YT where she decides to leave the crew behind and remain in the void I critique the whole scene as undermining Janeway's character. Wish there was an easy way to link to that comment but hope that gives you a sense of what I mean (granted, I haven't done an exhaustive review and analysis).
They really need to hire Ron Moore back. He gave some great advice about Voyager, Enterprise, and future Trek shows in general back around 2000. You can still find it archived somewhere, although I think the original website that did the interview isn't in great shape. If they had listened to Moore, Voyager would have been much more successful and Enterprise probably wouldn't have been canceled. And his advice still applies to Trek today. Moore said this about Enterprise in 2000 and look at how well it applies to Discovery: "The STAR TREK past, it's challenging; it sounds like it's fun on one level, and I thought that was an interesting way to go for a long time. But it has a lot of pitfalls to it. You have a very complex future mapped out. If you are going to go into STAR TREK's past, say, pre-Kirk, you better have an iron-clad commitment to maintaining the continuity that's been established, or I think you are just going to lose everybody. Because if you go back before Kirk, and you start screwing around, and you just don't care what NEXT GEN or DS9 or VOYAGER established, or the movies, or even the original series, you just try to make it up as you go along, I think you just lost everyone. The whole franchise will just collapse, because it will have no validity whatsoever. If you are going to go there, you really better be prepared to truly put on the STAR TREK mantle and be the keeper of the flame."
As much as I too want Ron Moore back, I don't think he's interested (though he put out some interesting ideas in the DS9 documentary). Robert Hewitt Wolfe would be great to have back and he's said on Twitter he'd be up for it. Just keep Brannon Braga as far away as possible.
No, it's not the gap between the first 2 JJ movies that killed the mometum! It's the lack of a real cohesive story, thing that make sense and fit into the Star Trek Universe as well as characters and their development. JJ is quick bang for the buck, but when you look behind all the effects and action, it's hollow!
Just a more specific problem with what they did with Discovery's continuity issues. Making Section 31 mainstream, in DS9 they were basically unknown to everyone other than a few select people in the quadrant. but in Discovery soon as anyone sees the black badge they knew exactly what it was.
@@frosty848 In DS9 Bashir & Sisko had never heard of 31, were repulsed by the very idea of it. In Disco, not only do the crew recognise Tyler's black badge as relating to 31, but they also sort of shrug their shoulders in acceptance, as though they've seen it before.
I’m fine with the Kelvin timeline and the Prime timeline, mirror universes, just about anything. But I HATE how the Borg were watered down! The Borg were soooo scary! And now they’re no more of a threat than any other hostile race. Takes all the fun out of it.
Considering the quality of the writers.... they didn't have much choice. They had written themselves into a corner and either weren't capable or weren't willing to explore the possibilities of "How do you defeat an opponent who can adapt to whatever you do after the 1st use, species wide"
Agreed, would be nice to see the Borg come back with a vengeance, somehow...As a matter of fact, it might be better to see the BORG destroy Romulus, or Vulcan, than some other Mary-Sue adversary...just a thought...
I've said the same thing. The Borg got punked. Basically, they just became another bully with an Achilles heel. As a sci-fi fan, I accept various scenarios as the writer has the right to create what they deem best for the story. Not all of them work, but at least they tried. I do think overall, Star Trek over used the Mirror Universe (I'm looking at you DS9). They also underused the Romulans and the Ferengi turned out to be clowns. Many Quark/Ferengi based episodes were fantastic, but over all, they were side bars. What ever happened to the Borg Cubes' ability to self heal? Or their total disregard the codes of ethics? (an alignment?)
Issue with the Borg is that they are too powerful and their goals are too final. So they have to be watered down in the show, same with Tyranids in 40k. Both stand as a lesson that making your big baddies so powerful and so alien makes for bad story telling.
It didn't change the Pegasus episode at all. Through that whole episode Riker wrestled with whether or not to tell Picard and stuff happens off screen all the time, some times it's referenced sometimes not but, making it a TNG holodeck program was total bullshit I agree, but it didn't a thing about the TNG episode they shoehorned it into.
Adherence to 50 years of canon and an established timeline limits good storytelling?? Seriously?? That's only a problem for sitcoms! One of Star Treks' strengths was its perceived faithfulness to canon, they made plenty of inroads into uncharted (non-canon) waters, but whatever the percentage of deviation, it was usually seen, at least by the majority of core fans as 'mostly faithful.' IMHO alternate world timelines are often an excuse for lazy writers to stay lazy and continue to offer sub-standard, poorly conceived cookie-cutter characters and uninspired dialog. Witness the multiple non-sensical exchanges between Michael Burnham and Sarek in season 1, so many missed opportunities to explore Human/Vulcan relationships, so many incongruencies regarding their interactions, do I have to spell them out? Spocks mother could have been put to much better use when exploring the family relationships revealed in season 1 Canon need not be a straight-jacket that chokes the life out of a story. 'It's only a story.' you might say, well, why not change the timeline every season? or every episode for that matter. (I just gave someone an idea!) There is a reason that Sherlock Holmes kept his tobacco in a Persian slipper from one story to another. Continuity matters, it breathes life into a story. Examine the interaction between Spock and Sarek at the end of Star Trek IV. Spock's father tells him that his opposition to Spock joining Starfleet may have been in error. Spock's only response is a raised eyebrow, and yet we fully understand the weight of his father's admission and Spock's surprise at hearing it. At that moment we have no problem identifying with Spock and we know how he feels. a poignant, well-written scene, ably portrayed by actors who know their characters cold, thus allowing them to bring considerable emotional gravitas to a scene that could easily be dismissed otherwise. The action-adventure geeks and probably the studio accountants might like to opine out at this point that great action/adventure stories don't need these explorations into characters cultures and ideals, and while this is not untrue, it should be noted that Star Trek was never conceived as a vehicle for propelling action over substance. Star Trek at its core has always been about ideas, and people, often in a sci-fi setting, but always well-grounded in a world if not completely familiar, then at least understandably evolved from our own world. This format offers the exploration of ideas and characters to a degree not always possible with other formats. Admiral Kirk probably sums up this philosophy best in Star Trek IV when he says: "I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space." Live Long & Prosper folks!
I honestly don't understand the issue with the "prime timeline"! All non sci-fi stories ever told are told in the "timeline" of human history. We don't have dramas or action flicks that pretend WWII never happened or that Europeans never went to America, etc. Like you say, it's not a straight-jacket it's just lazy writing!
If you believe a re-title of Enterprise is a Top Ten unforgiveable decision...ok, the Ferengi episode was a kind of sequel to a TNG episode...Engineer Torres was exploring her Klingon Heritage...if you believe we are in a new Renaissance because of Picard or ahem Discovery...the JJ movies were CRAP...Killing Kirk should have been #1 by a long ways...and ummm unless you use the Mirror Universe, you have no other established or even mentioned alternate realities until New "Trek", unless you include the Xindi stuff from Enterprise since that cannot be considered to exist in the so called Prime Universe...overall, this vid was a complete waste of 18+ minutes of my life!
A Star Trek "renaissance" under Kurtzman? Are you taking drugs? Kurtzman is single handedly destroying Roddenberry's legacy and everything Star Trek was meant to stand for. These dime-a-dozen entertainment channels owned by major corporations masquerading as little ol independent channels is becoming a problem. It's the corporate borg taking over the internet.
I think that Abrams' films were merely action adventure movies, with the ST tag affixed to them. I can appreciate the desire for Trek, after 4 years absence, but the depiction of the contemporary Spock was ridiculous, as was Kirk's ascendancy to captain, with the insistence on going back to the Khan well, once more, was a convoluted hot mess. I have no regret about the scuttling of the fourth movie, particularly, when Axanar was superior to all of the Kelvinverse renditions (putting aside Peter's financial doings), IMO, and would have made a fine theatrical release. This was the real reason, I believe, that CBS decided to bring the hammer down, which stopped everyone else in their tracks, unfortunately.
@@johnnyfacchin6469 You are in the minority then. JJ Trek is a travesty. If they really wanted to spin it differently they should have put it in the mirror universe and not just copy and pasted all the names onto people and ships that looked and acted nothing like the source they were copied from. Hell, Galaxy Quest was a better 'Trek' movie than any of the Abrams bullshit.
I really feel like a lot of this was written by someone without a good understanding of how the shows works. Like yeah Kes is 2 but her species lives to about 7. They age/mature 10x faster than we do. It's like they were doing something else while watching the show.
9 to 10, actually. There's an "alternate reality" episode where she marries Tom, her daughter marries Harry, and the Doctor has hair and calls himself Van Gogh. So we can't just fault Neelix for dating single digit age women.
One thing that really fascinated me about the Enterprise, as my Dad told me when I was really young, "the Enterprise is so big they had to build it in space". That sparked my imagination and got me hooked on science, math, engineering, space. But Jarr Jarr Abrams movies took ALL that away by making it into a big construction project. When you see the inside of it, it looks like an oil refinery or some kind of 20th century processing plant. Third thing, I waited for a year to see that movie. I was hoping they would show its maiden liftoff! No, it's already in space when they first show it. Jarr Jarr Abrams is NOT a Star Trek fan!
@@Ray-dw3wg His fate and future is already written in the prime timeline. The Kelvin timeline gives the audience the thrill of knowing Kirk can actually die. That's like if they created another TNG movie during the series. We already know each of the characters' fates. I'm not saying the Kelvin timeline is good, because I'm not much of a fan myself. What I'm saying is start another generation of Star Trek, after TNG. Put it sometime in the 25th century so we can continue the story of the Trek universe. That's what TNG did, and that blew up the franchise. The franchise doesn't need to hang onto the original series and TNG characters. Their stories have already been told.
@TrekCulture Apparently you haven't seen the episode "TUVIX" where Nelix Gets a better understanding of Vulcan. Basically everything came up to a head there... but it also gave Tuvock a understanding of Nelix
Your dissing of "Enterprise" showed how shallow this list is. The show was indeed cancelled but seasons 3 & 4 the show had found its footing... almost like every Trek it took a while to hit its stride and develop synergy.
@@monicaolsson7608 - no, it's not, read some more about it, it's more complicated than that. People were already saying it for season 3 and it happened. Nothing is certain regarding season 4.
Yes, but he also proved that TV was hard, starting with that godawful BSG boxing episode, and finishing with that godawful Starbuck nonsense through to the end.
@@DerNesor I'm not surprised. It was probably the first time the Borg were hit by that particular type of weapon. Since they hadn't encountered it before they hadn't adapted a defense against it. Same way the Enterprise-D's phasers were effective the first time they were used against the Borg.
@@DerNesor At the very least it should have been something along the lines of the planet killer from the original series. You'd think a planet of synths would be defended by something equally synthetic.
I was hoping it would lead to a twist that Seven of Nine, with all the fleets of the Romulans, Borg cubes that show up, Federation and the AI at the edge of the Galaxy poised to destroy each other, would send the Cube into the past, but unable to control how far she sends them, finds herself 5000 years in the past, where no Borg currently exists. The twist being that Seven is and always was the Borg queen, in a paradox. Her actions to save the drones lead to the creation of the Borg.
Killing Jadzia wasn't totally the writers idea. The actress who played her, Terry Farrel, didn't want to come back for the next season so she could focus on her family and home life, so they had to write Jadzia out somehow.
Uhh...killing Jadzia wasn't *THAT* bad! What more could they have done with her character in one season left? The Ezri thing was more interesting. And it finally paid off Bashir's love for her.
Adam Abbas at the very least, Picard fixed Data’s death but why did he have to die in the first place! He could have simply used that handy aging subroutine. 😂
Erm... how is any entry in this video shaming old Trek? The closest thing is perhaps Voyager using recognised enemies like Klingons, Romulans etc, but that's not shaming old Trek, it's shaming Voyager for wasting it's opportunity many times to tell stories about new races, new ideas, the entire premise of the series being set in the Delta Quadrant.
I personally wasn't a fan of the Kelvin timeline Especially in the 2nd movie when they'd gotten Benedict Cumberbatch to play Khan His performance as Khan didn't hold a candle to the original version played by Ricardo Montelban
The greatest loss was the evolution toward excessive and mindless violent action themes replacing the moral "Aesop fable" quality of the original series. Roddenbery understood the importance of treating the viewers with respect for their curiosity of how a more enlightened future might one day become.
Tbh i can agree to an extent but i think looking back at the original series, its quality is completely overrated, and im not talking about foam rocks and William Shattner two hand punches. While the original series has its good episodes it fails from the fact that it was sold and produced as a "Space western" since that was popular at the time. I think TNG minus Roddenbery was able to take what the original series had and provide much more content of a much higher quality. The newer Star Trek shows are heading down a darker direction similar to what DS9 did and remember DS9 was hated until Enterprise was launched. I wouldnt judge the new shows fully until they are over and you can get a full image of whats going on. While season 1 of discovery was super awkward and didnt make total sense with some of the decision making, season 4 turned out alot better IMO. I mean loo at the first season of TNG... its aweful! TNG! The Trek show that most fans consider to be the pinnacle of what Trek is was aweful and awkward in its infancy.
Very much so, the fact that they had to rely on magical Native tropes rather than an honest look at the Native culture of natural respect that they started with, and pretty much abandoning his Maquis principles which would have played off Janeway's aggressive nature bored me to tears in the end. And then they paired him up with 7 just to give him something to do in the finale
That's because the actor hated the characters treatment, making a vicious circle is poor treatment of the character, making the actor harder to work with, making more poor treatment of the character.
Am I the only person in this timeline who considers Michael Burnham the most blank, unpersuasive, irritating and boring protagonist in all franchise? I truly cannot understand why Sonequa Martin-Green is praised so much.
Careful, your walking the tightrope of being labelled a racist and a misogynist. If you don't like Discovery or it's "powerful" protagonist it just has to be due to some form of bigotry. Trust me, I know. Despite my favorite Captain being Benjamin Sisko, I am a "racist" for not liking the Burnham character, and despite my love for Voyager and it's Female captain, I am called a "misogynist" for not liking the latest female led star trek series.
@@UnknownUzer I can read the sarcasm, but I actually think that's the problem. The writers were like, "let's make all these characters STRONG WOMEN(TM), but they didn't know how to do it without just showing us Michael being the universe's kick ball. The other issue is they didn't give us enough filler episodes to see what her character was like.
@@anastasias6352 I think you've hit the nail on the head for me. I'm not opposed to serialised TV, but more like DS9 with stand alone and character building episodes. Perhaps this could have helped make discovery more entertaining and the characters more well rounded from my perspective.
I didn't mind Voyager encountering Alpha Quadrant species: that they would do so was typically compatible with the premise (the Caretaker pulling ships to him from all over the galaxy). I loved Voyager, definitely up there with the best of Trek, but I agree it was often fighting with it's own premise. Voyager at it's very best was in the Year of Hell, when Voyager was being absolutely hammered and things were desperate - the show needed more of that feeling, to explore more the emotional and psychological cost of being so far from home, the crew not knowing if they'll ever see home again, and realising that their families probably think they're dead... not every episode feeling like they just shipped out from DS9 two weeks ago.
@@aaronrichards2842 Yeah it annoyed the F out of me. Everyone calling Neelix a pedo with his real love for Kes. But 7 of 9 who mentally at times was extremely childlike. Harry chasing her like a dog. Why doesn't anyone call him out for that?
@@bshays21 Yeah, that insinuation about Neelix was dumb. She is obviously a mature, highly intelligent young woman, despite (arbitrarily) being only two years old.
Riker was the worst. There were even times his Captain (or his own underlings) had to remind him to focus on task instead of on some nearby woman. The writers and music and audience were always on Riker's side, but objectively he usually behaved like a horny, moody, petulant juvenile.
I'm ok with everything being in the Prime universe seeing as most of the Kelvin Universe was shit. ST: Beyond was the best of the 3 and I'm glad they stopped there.
Say what you will about Kelvin Trek(i keep picturing Calvin & Hobbs in Starfleet uniforms, for some reason....), it would've been nice to set Discovery in that reality, as it would've explained why they did what they did in the show....
The point about Burnam's "character" boiling down to just being bounced around from one heart-wrenching trauma to another is a problem that's affected several women fictional characters in the last decade or so - perhaps most famously Lara Croft in the 2013 Tomb Raider reboot trilogy. Actual growth and desires are substituted with "how much can we make this person suffer without actually killing them?" It's just an endless parade of physical trauma, losing friends, betrayals, near-death experiences, fear, dread, more physical trauma, loss and.... oh god, can we move on, please?! It's lazy writing and completely misses what makes good characters or their growth arcs.
@@lollywit I believe they have indulged themselves too much, and there is no longer a moral context in their life. It's just pure self flagellation while they take everyone else along for the ride, thinking there is some benefit in that. Respect for human life does not appear to be on their list.
Tomb Raider is especially frustrating because the first reboot was supposed to be an origin story to relaunch the series again but after 3 games she's still origin-ing and it's just boring
Number 1 is idiotic using a new universe would put off a lot of people, hell a lot of people hate the kelvin films and are only glad they are a separate universe because they can ignore it.
This 100%. I'm put off badly when reboots throw out tons of existing lore. I like how they made the Kelvin timeline its own thing, and I like that it's canon that it's a totally separate thing. I wouldn't mind seeing more Kelvin timeline films, but not as a takeover of all things Star Trek.
9:13 If Romulans wear simple face masks to help protect themselves while performing surgery on Borg drones then imagine what they could do to protect Americans against viruses. If only we had that technology now.
@Bill Davis Yeah... makes me wonder what the motive is behind the creator(s) of this channel. Either they really like it, or they're getting some benefit out of talking positively about it.
Captain Lorca should have been the source of conflict in the second season. He the warrior who needed in a time of war, but now is having to deal with peace . And he clashing with the Federation rules in that time of peace. That would be a far better series then what we got.
People discussing Trek and including JJ Trek, Discovery and Picard don't deserve my time. It's like "ignoring new garbage in case they talk about Star Trek".
@@savage1267 Legit, that's how I feel... Sticking to the Prime Timeline being a bad decision was just final straw... but with as much as they talk about the news "treks" and the topics not being "They decided to make this" the downvote was WELL earned.
The only problem of current Prime timeline is the needless prequel that is Discovery and the mishandled Picard series. That’s why this nut wants Trek in the Kelvin timeline.
what abrams did with his butchery was as bad as what singer did to xmen. if these men had statues I would tear them down. but there is a way to fix it.. like ishtar without the crying and singing, a canonical edit can make this cancerous turd into a prime timeline masterpiece. I would volunteer but I am still busy with ishtar. having a hard time getting 44 good minutes out of it.
@@notyou8716 - Of course it would not exist. The entire show is a love letter to Star Trek as Seth MacFarlane is a Trek superfan. It is a loving homage and about as far from cringe worthy as I can imagine. This, by the way, is coming from someone who grew up on TOS reruns and wrote letters begging to have The Motion Picture made. Far from cringy, I think that Seth and his good ship "The Orville" are the current best representation of what Star Trek was meant to be that is currently in production.
One of the things that should've been on this list was Khan being familiar with Chekhov in Star Trek II:The Wrath Of Khan Chekov never even appeared in TOS episode from which Star Trek II was based on
The powers that be explained it this way: Chekhov was on the ship working different shifts so we never see him on screen with Khan Good try, but the whole thing means nothing to me either way
@@savage1267 a prequel is something that is set before another Star Trek: TOS was about 20 years before "The Wrath Of Khan" The TOS episode "Space Seed" was the episode that Khan was originally introduced, and Chekhov wasn't part of the bridge crew when that episode originally aired Try again
Day Dreamer I heard Chekov was recovering from something in the other room in sickbay. I’m aware he wasn’t there but I’ve heard someone involved came up with that as an excuse.
@@daydreamer8662 I'm not so sure I agree. Chekhov was a prominent officer who would have been involved in those events. It is perfectly plausible that he just didn't come into the camera's view. It's not as if the imaginary characters knew they had to make an appearance for an audience. Koenig was probably sick that week, what would you have them do? Maybe choosing him to be on Seti-Alpha 5 to encounter the pissed off Khan was meant precisely to inform us he was there in the first place. Just a thought.
Um, to be honest, I never even knew about or ever even noticed the Enterprise vs StarTrekEnterprise naming difference until you mentioned it.
I kinda remember when it came out that the showrunners said they didn't want to intimidate new fans from coming in late to the series, so they didn't use Star Trek in the title. In theory, It was supposed to stand on its own as a sci-fi show & not just a Star Trek spinoff. Which explained why it disregarded canon sometimes.
I thought that was stupid lol Why pay all that money for an IP and then not fully use it? They'd also have an exisiting Trekkie fan base right out of the gate. Slap the name Star Trek all over it & capitalize on it!
Did you watch the show when it was still new on the air? You would only notice that then
@@MedalionDS9 I did! Devotedly, in fact. I just never noticed! ;-)
@@Singlade Fair enough, sometimes my mind would just auto insert Star Trek above ENTERPRISE so it never felt out of place to me
But like that REALLY matters... it’s just a damn title... if they had paid more attention to the quality of the show rather than how to call it, maybe it wouldn’t have been cancelled so soon
Got to say, they didn't have to do Tripp dirty in Enterprise
He was the best character in the show. Spiritual predecessor of McCoy and a damned good engineer. They could have ended it with him becoming captain not killed off anyone. Alas, Beta canon tried to rectify his death.
The Kelvin time line always existed, like our own. Spock and the Romulans skipped out of ours and went in to theirs. Like the" Mirror Mirror" episode.
Trip got crapped on in one episode. Harry Kim got crapped on for 5 years. Puts things into perspective, yes?
@@johnbockelie3899 No, the writers and producers of 'Trek' just ran out of imagination and good will in their hearts and embraced violence and going "into darkness."
@@oddish4352 Well, Wang kind of deserved it with his occasional slack and sloppy behavior, that stopped his desire to direct an episode cold, and far more importantly, would have seen him depart the show, save for about the most meaningless accolade imaginable(#20 something in People's annual sexiest men issue), and likely an anticipation of a pushback in cashiering an Asian-American actor, when so few of them were in evidence. So Jennifer Lien was not extended, a very tragic outcome, in a number of senses, that doesn't bear going into here.
I didn't mind the Voyager episode with the Ferengi, as they were already established to have gone to the Delta Quadrant. It was a nice callback for loyal viewers. The other old faces, though, I can't a tightly justify.
I thought the Romulan episode was kind of cool.
@@seraphimvalkyrin4543 Which?
@@seraphimvalkyrin4543 Eye of the Needle? I liked it. Over all I do feel the show did wasted opportunities. Character development wasn't nearly as good as it could have of been either. Wasted opportunities everywhere.
@@seraphimvalkyrin4543 I also liked the Romulan episode. It had a great build up for the crew finding a route home, and then when it was revealed that the wormhole not only traversed space, but also time, the disappointment in the crew was palpable.
@@seraphimvalkyrin4543 I thought they over did that one but all in all it was good.
Jeffrey Combs was the best recurring character(s) in the entire franchise.
yes
Absolutely 👏🏻
"Brunt,...FCA." You're right, all his roles are awesome in some way or another.
He is my fave Star Trek Actor!!! I am a total fan. I wish they had a T shirt that has his name and pics of all the characters he played kinda like the Garak shirt.
Barclay was good, too. But one good character just can't compete against Shran and Weyoun and the others, lol.
Actually the Ferengi that were in Voyager were just playing on the seeds planted in TNG and to be honest I thought it was a fun episode
That's exactly their point. But yes it was quite fun.
It was and it did resolve something. Besides, the Ferengi are an interesting race who needed more development.
@@maximum_bird I really disliked the Ferengi, until I saw DS9. That gave much deeper Ferengi characters.
@@MrSpacelyy I hear you. The introduction of Ferengi in the earlier series left a lot to be desired. I did enjoy the episode where they stranded themselves in the Delta Quadrant and how VOY wrapped up that story nicely.
@@maximum_bird I agree that was a good satisfyinh wrapup
Enterprise has an unforgivable last episode. The main cast are treated like guest stars in their own show, they kill off one of its most popular characters without any emotional payoff, and they could have spent the final season building up to the creation of the Federation instead of trying to force it all in 1 shot.
They had to rush to put that together... They had a very limited time to come up with an ending.
100% Correct. I can't forgive that this video didn't mention this.
I was no fan of Enterprise, but it in no way deserved that ending. I hope it was a lesson learned on how not to end a series.
They had something like two weeks to throw it together. It was almost as sudden as the decision to can Firefly. Did that episode suck? Yeah. Do the writers, crew, and cast deserve the blame? No.
Trip faked his death in order to join Section 31 in the lead up to the Earth-Romulan War
Killing off Dax was pretty bad too
and than you get 15 ezri episodes in a row just so they can try to establish her. I hate that so much.
and honestly, i didnt like ezri at all. just finished my 6th or 7th run of ds9 few days ago, every time i like ezri less and less. The actress is cool and all in interviews, but badly written in series.
@@pavlenikic9712 Nicole was fine...just not as Dax. they should just made a new character for her
Hot Take: They should have killed off Dax earlier.
But hey, I'm a Doctor Who fan. You give me a character whose species main trait is being able to regenerate into a new body, I want to see it happen.
I liked Ezri Dax. It was Terry Farrell who decided to leave the show so they had to change the character. It was good that Ezri was nothing like Jadzia.
I actually liked the crossover between the two ferengi that got lost in TNG and the two that Voyager runs into in Voyager. However, that should have been one of an extremely few crossovers
For me: Neelix's character was caught wildly swinging between naive teenager and competent ship Captain who had interacted with many species and had his own salvage business.
I thought that was becasue of the truama he went through becasue of the war
@@dustyrose192 That would have removed the naivety altogether.
I thought he lacked any real depth and came off rather cartoonish
I don't think Into Darkness lost momentum by being released 4 years after the previous movie, to be fair. I think it did it by being a bit shit.
well put. i did like the third one tho.
I agree, a shit story with great special effects and great acting (IMHO). Any first-year drama student would have their ears pinned back for daring to submit such a crappy and poorly conceived pile of plagiarism.
We have to hide our interstellar spaceship from a tribe of neandertal-aliens. Where is the best place for that?
- Underwater near a cliff directly next to that tribe´s territory!
Really, WHO WROTE THAT BS? That is not the only insane (not in the good way!) idea, but just alone this one plot point should have led to the writer being laughed out of the building! And the script thrown into a garbage bin and set on fire!
@@RogerValor nothing screams Star Trek more than sick motorcycle tricks!
Exactly.
I am surprised that no one here mentioned killing off Jadzia in DS9.
IIRC that wasn't a creative decision, but a consequence of Berman beeing an ass towards Farrell
@@NixLaser Or, if you look deeper into it, removing an unliked cast member.
I wished they would have killed her off in the first episode. She was a horrendous character and in my opinion, not a good actress
I agree, she was a great character.
That wasn’t the producers. Terry Farrell wanted out from the show.
Killing off Hugh in Picard was totally unforgivable.....
It was pointless too in my opinion since the only thing it added was the revenge turmoil for Seven later, and they didn't even tell Jonathan Del Arco until very shortly before filming. His breakdowns in that episode were unplanned and real emotion. There was so much more potential for the character if he lived. I also felt the Icheb scene was pointlessly gory and over the top. Overall I loved Picard though.
Agreed! It's not that no beloved characters should be killed, but the way they are done in is very disappointing; in a couple of a minutes and their death without any contribution to the story! If, instead of watching Soji and Narek in bed, we learned more about Hugh's work and possibly struggles on the Borg Cube (with Soji's story just hinted on as she later becomes a leading character), his death wouldn't have been wasted. The same goes for Trip, Data ( at least ST Picard did something beautiful in that respect),
@@zunnoab well one of them had to die to drive 7, but icheb was definitely the more logical choice because his closeness to seven. I too think Hugh should have lived.
@@PmmGarak Yeah my main problem with the Icheb scene was the over the top gore. That's not what I watch Star Trek for.
and Icheb
The Ferengi actually payed off a plot point from an episode of The Next Generation where an unstable wormhole was stationary in the alpha quadrant, but opened up randomly between the delta and gamma quadrant which stranded those Ferengi in the delta quadrant where Voyager ment them. It's a very rare instance of continuity in star trek, voyager especially.
*paid.
@@tanyairwin3695 you took the time to correct someone’s spelling from a year ago? Not cool.
@@MrCosmonty it doesn't matter how long it's been.
@@MrCosmonty I think it's pretty rad.
@@MrCosmonty I’m here four months after your post to tell you that @Tanya Irwin is doing the lord’s work and fighting the good fight.
That one episode of Voyager when Tom Paris hits Warp 10, kidnaps Janeway, then both turn into fish and have... spawn....
They looked more like amphibians/reptiles than fish.
The episode is "Threashold". I can tell you as a ST:VOY fan that we do not talk about that episode...
lol. Warp 10 apparently triggers super speed evolution!!!???
The only part of *that* episode worth watching is Jonas plotting with the Kazon and Seska.
In the original series in the episode “by any other name” the ship reaches warp 15 and no shit happens. 🤷🏻♂️
It really bugged me that Abrahams blew up Vulcan!
Also in that movie you wonder why Nero didn't go straight to that realitys Romulus and give them the heads up about their sun
@@paulmallon9033 well he wasnt trying to protect romulus he was trying to kill spock. And would the romulans really believe some random man was from the future ? I dont that's just my reasoning, anyway have a nice day.
Stupid poseurs screwing with culture to make their own mark. You see it too with other writers and directors who use names of famous movies for their own, or Tarantino glomming soundtrack music from older famous films for himself. Cheap, tacky, talentless crapola.
@@RideAcrossTheRiver ah yes using older music in a soundtrack truly the sign of creative bankruptcy ...... lol whut dude every movie released ever has had older music from somewhere in it
@@NaatClark I never saw any movie that used the soundtrack from other movies. Tarantino stole soundtrack music from films of the 1960s and 70s.
Concerning Kes, considering her life span, she is about 20 earth years old. The Ocampa have a normal life span of 9 years. Which mean they age much faster than humans. I would think this would mean they learn much faster as well. By Ocampan standards she is an adult or extremely close to it regardless of her chronological age. Because of that, I have no problem with her relationship with Neelix and do not believe it is improper.
If Ocampans waited until they were at the human age of consent, their species would cease to exist very quickly.
The argument is pretty dumb. The character matches the age of the actress who plays her. I'm glad they got rid of Kes when they did, though. I found her much more annoying than Neelix. Neelix gets a lot of bashing, but he is good for an occasional chuckle, without which the show would probably be somewhat flat.
Balloon Systems : it’s good to know that someone else feels that the Kes character was cringe-worthy at times (not the actress, just the way the writers wrote for her to be). The relationship between Kes and Neelix didn’t seem real, like they were just going thru the motions of being a couple.
@@slcRN1971 One thing you can say for Voyager, they gravitated toward stories focused on characters that people liked, and set aside or eliminated characters who were less liked.
@@balloonsystems8778 In this case, the age of the character does *NOT* match the age of the actress portraying her. The Actress is some 24 or 25 years old. The character is 2 years old. A 24 or 25 year old Ocompan would be a decaying skeleton that had been dead for 15 years.
The biggest mistake Star Trek keeps making is going into the past, as far as series, as opposed to the future.
Ardenwolfe YES! thank you. Discovery should have taken place after the events of NEMESIS, hell even after Picard timeline. Nostalgia-bait and the obligatory tech retcon just don’t work. Either that or just be KELVIN like it clearly wants to be.
Aon Arts so Pike’s stranger worlds adventures will coincide into the Kelvin timeline
Past, present or future does not matter. Good storytelling that is faithful to what Star Trek is, is all that matters.
Troy McClure yeah that’s why I like Orville over enterprise
@@Usernumber777 Thank you. I think that The Orville is the best Star Trek since Babylon 5.
In Picard: Killing Icheb for his cortical implant he did not have. Icheb chose to give up his cortical implant to Seven so that she could survive.
Do they actually say that on the show (Picard)? What parts they were harvesting? If so you're totally right. But, the cortical node was actually a tube that came out of the forehead, not the eyeball, so it's possible it's not an error if the eyeball is what you were thinking of.
they addressed it in the episode as in they didnt find it inside him.
If I was making the list, Killing Icheb would be number one.
@@matthewolson2308 pretty sure it had something to do with the controversial things Manu has posted on social media.
Hollywood: we need a franchise that can last for decades and make us millions
Also Hollywood: screws up Star Trek.
Actually William Shatner found it quite amusing; he was one of those that joked about after all the years on the bridge the bridge ended up on him.
He should have said his own fat ass is what made the ramp collapse
You forgot the worst decision: ending Enterprise too early!
ToS Enterprise, yes. Prequel, no.
@@contradictorycrow4327 bit late after I already did watch it. Try going back in time and warning me. The Enterprise prequel was entertaining enough, but should not have been put in the Star Trek universe. The fact they did so meant they were depending on the reputation and it was never going to work perfectly.
Agree!!
They frequently confused Vulcans with Romulans
I really don't get all the hate toward Enterprise.
Have to disagree - the Kelvin timeline was pointless, as were all the Abrams movies. Prime universe has plenty of nooks and crannies to tell stories in, and there's no reason you have to pretend history stopped with Nemesis. And movies just aren't Star Trek's home. Inevitably, feature film Trek will revolve around grand set-pieces and big budgets (neither of which it does all that well), and will take years between installments. Put the show back on TV where it belongs.
One thing that DS9 proved was that it wasn't the size of the playground, it's what you do when you're in it. DS9 did have alpha quadrant, but most of its storytelling revolved around its own neighborhood. Even during the Dominion War, we're mostly with the same characters in the same locations.
There's plenty of room in the Prime universe to tell stories. The real problem with Enterprise was that Berman and Braga were burnt out. Bring in new people to run things, and you can revitalize the franchise without killing off the old continuity.
Berman and Braga are humans just as you and me and if you need money youre willing to do what it takes when the franchise goes into a new direction (same for patrick steward who willingly slaughtered his own character which made him famous and opend the door for other big AAA blockbusters just to get some extra $ sad old greedy marionette). As for the continiuation AFTER Nemesis there is actualy a storyline going on its called "Star Trek: Destiny " (Yes, its offical Star trek matrial but only in bookform) which even goes deeper about the faith of the borg (not to mentioned many other species like Q and so many more other i cant even count which writters of the new shows would have had so much more material to continue on but simply not allowed because order from above and LICENCE ISSUES). All in all a sad conclusion which were once great shows (more or less) into this dark mess we have nowdays
@@Mastercluster I disagree that he slaughtered his own character, it brought out emotion that was only touched on in the series and a little in the movies and alot of people loved, though yes the Picard series as a whole isnt brilliant. You can't call Destiny "official" though, most of the 750 books are, the voyager Homecoming books were "official" also, but as much as I enjoyed them I think it was a bad direction to go and they contradict destiny. I doubt licencing is an issue either, novels are a very cheap way to go, Netflix buy rights to books constantly and never use them, CBS just wanted something new, as did Patrick Stewart, he didn't want the same old character, he wanted something different the same as the Logan movie in the XMen franchise, I doubt I'd want to play the same tired character again after 4 decades. Its CBS who changed it up so hed take it.
I could have forgive the time line has it built up to story line where it became time had been meddled with and they needed to restore the original. I got the desire to just do some fun movies with the known tropes, unbound by the lore, but had it ret-conned it's self it would have been fine - Afterall the brain dead who enjoyed would not have cared, and the final movie could have had a lot of fun - Could have begun in the 24th century showing how things played out in the Kelvin timeline, and that things played out very badly - And finding a way to ungo Nero's meddling with Kirks life was the key to fixing everything?
Dude, there is a thing with Star Trek rights.... voyager was the last that had full rights, everything else that has the Star Trek name on it, by contract, has to be modify at least a 25% to be aired, thats why there are so many differences with new trek, and way it was stuck in prequels
Honestly idk why Enterprise was so unpopular... I actually love the series and I thought it was authentic and true to the original star trek message while still having it's own charm.
Can someone please explain why they didn't like Enterprise?
Enterprise was good it was just getting its legs and they cancelled it. Most the shows took a few seasons to really get good
Exactly, like TNG it sucked during it's first two seasons. It was getting much better in season 3 and 4 was just rushed as they find out they were cancelled.
The first 2 seasons of almost all star trek apart from the original series were spotty at best. I thought into the darkness was way better than the 2009 star trek movie.
terrible trek. wooden captain.
It was never good and they dragged it along to qualify for syndication. Horrific final episode
Enterprise was getting better, too. Brent Spiner. Humanoid Klingons. Mirror Universe fun. And, the S5 plans: Shran added to the main cast, Elizabeth surviving, Romulans being obnoxious, and the Federation really starting to come together.
Jar Jar Abrams universe had so many plot holes. The Kelvin timeline needs to be tanked.
Agreed… so agreed.
@Michael Shaughnessy It was literally the Budweiser brewery.
So... those were at least four mistakes from Discovery and Picard... yeah. Also, they should abolish all that prime and Kelvin nonsense and just decanonise the whole Abrams/Kurtzman stuff, and then follow up from Voyager‘s final episode.
Seriously give me Captain Sisko popping into a post dominion war alpha quadrant 3 decades later. Seriously why do idiots keep on circling the franchise back instead of keep moving forward?
No.
I liked quite a few of the Enterprise episodes. Almost everything except for the Infamous last episode
I loved the series. The only thing I didn't like was the whole Xindi conflict. I know that since TOS and TNG exist, they make it out just fine anyways. Plus, it took away from what the series was all about: humanity's first years of exploration and discovering Klingons, Romulans, etc. That had so much potential.
Les Monves basically told to crash-land the series.
Yeah it was finding its footing by the end only real thing I would change is the decom scenes and have some of the early episodes have some permanent consequences ie Trip getting pregnant.
I loved Enterprise
enterprise is still the one I usually binge watch-put of all of the others it was the best at recapturing the feeling of exploration originally intended by TOS. If CBS hadn't screwed it up by trying an early attempt at CBS all access via UPN the show would've had a much more significant following than it had. I didn't even see an episode of it till the final season or so when it finally went on regular network. The show was doomed from the beginning just because of that. Now Discovery and Picard are different animals, they're doomed not just because of that but also due to shitty writing and their desire to use foul language beyond things like Data saying "oh.....shit" or Spock saying "I think if I were human I'd say to hell with you" when they were called back to be decommissioned in the Undiscovered Country.
Did *anyone* really *not* know that Enterprise was a Trek series?
We all knew it was a Trek series. That was never in doubt. But it was the first to not have "Star Trek" in the title, and that annoyed more than a few people. It was one of those inexplicably stupid decisions by Rick Fuck-This-Shit Berman, along with keeping that annoying theme song.
Anyone who watched it did, for sure. But I suspect the idea of putting Star Trek back in the name before it was to call in more casual folks who had seen it was on but not really paid attention to it, despite maybe having a passing interest in Star Trek. Try and play off the name recognition to draw in folks who hadn't bothered to give it a watch yet. Didn't work, but I can see the intent.
@@maisiesummers42 I rather liked the theme song as well as the opening montage with early Astronauts as well as Bell X-1 pilot Chuck Yeager
@@Uturuncu That's right. At the time, they noticed that the average age of the Star Trek viewer was getting older and older and they wanted to draw younger audiences to the show.
This video is super stupid.
The insistence on making prequels to the original series annoyed me. Sure, seeing the formation of the Federation might have been cool if done well... but it wasn't.
A series with Sulu as captain of the Excelsior would have surely been far better.
there was a sulu series but it was cancelled by cbs
You can tell that, that was the plan, to show the "growing pains" of the Federations beginning. But with the cancellation, they "Game of Thrones'd" it. The final season could have been so much better, especially if they had gotten away from so much "time travel" arcs and got serious.
I believe that much of the reason STE died was being victim of a bad time slot. Looking at the shows slotted around it, I seriously doubt many of those viewers stuck around for Star Trek.
Imagine the novel "Excelsior: Forged in Fire" as a TV miniseries. That ties up many loose threads and fills in gaps between TOS, ST6, TNG, and DS9, without ever breaking what was established canon at the time of its writing. That's what prequels should do. None of the onscreen prequels have ever managed that, so Abrams' solution of a new timeline was good. I wish Discovery had indeed been in the Kelvin TL, especially now that no more films are currently forthcoming. Its dark tone and extreme violence fit much better there than in the Prime TL, I think.
Mistake 1: Jar Jar. Mistake 2: Kurtzman.
You know Star Trek is in sad condition when we actually yearn for Berman and Brega.
@@pwnmeisterage I'd rather have Coto, but sure, even B&B would be better. (Just don't leave Berman alone with any of the actresses.)
I’m not sure if the writer of this thing has actually seen these series.
Why?
@@bobb4you Because the new shows are aweful. The writers have no understanding for the universe and seem to be more interested in pushing political agendas instead of telling intriguing stories. And of course: crying, so much crying.
*awful*
…and you’re right, they were.
@@Nodux359 only people who say stupid shit like this are insurrectionist who are upset that Star Trek isn’t a right wing shit show.
@@Nodux359 Star Trek is ALWAYS in tune with the time in which a show or movie is made. What you actually dislike is how the world has changed. There are a lot of people stuck in the past and longing for some rose-tinted golden age of everything. Time marches on: adapt or go watch reruns.
I personally feel that every incarnation of "Star Trek" has both stellar and cringe elements. I'm old but I refuse to be one of those "X was better in my day" curmudgeons who only play old music and hate seeing women or people of color or crying or LGBTQ+ people or whatever in their fandom.
Shaking your fist at change just makes you look silly.
Deus Ex Deflector Dish.
It felt like in every episode of Voyager they solved an obstacle they ran into by reconfiguring the deflector dish to send out a pulse or a beam of some type of energy.
Just lazy writing IMHO.
So much this. Many of Voyager's greatest faults stemmed from the writers being forced to write the series in stand alone episodes, when they wanted the flexibility to tell longer reaching stories like the Year of Hell. After watching Year of Hell, I was completely pissed off that didn't become an entire season as it was easily the most interesting thing to happen in that series. Finding out it was SUPPOSED to be an entire season story didn't surprise me in the least.
We will reconfigure the dish to create an interferometric pulse.
What does that do?
It interferes with things.
Reverse the polarity!!!
There was always an element of technobabble in Star Trek scripts - it wasn't uncommon for the writer to add a notation of "TECH" to the script, and let the production staff insert some appropriate pseudoscience. But in Voyager, it tended to feel like they just used it as a crutch.
"Oh no, we're about to be blown to pieces by an alien armada, how can we possibly escape?"
"I know the perfect solution - we can just [TECH]!"
@@patrickkenyon2326 This isn't only true in Voyager, that kind of technobabble, as they called it, was invented for the Next Generation. It isn't only the Voyager that used the deflector dish for such things.
Deciding to redesign the Klingons for Star Trek Discovery was a very bad decision.
They could have had any aliens ,they did not have to mass with the Klingons
The Klingons were horrible and we were made to read way too many subtitles, which I find very distracting. This nearly put me off the whole show, but I slogged through, hoping for better as time went on.
those arent klingons
Pluth... uou 'an' uweall' unnathann 'ouwa' thay're thay'inh wi' all th' p'wothe'icx 'n thay're mowthths, e'thr.
Translated: Plus, you can't really understand what they're saying with all the prosthetics i their mouths, either.
It's a great decision they poked fun at themselves the second season though, in my opinion. I got a good chuckle out of the fourth wall breaking jokes about the hair and language.
Neelix and tuvok could've been quark and odo with good writing, but we all know the good stories and writers were used on ds9.
Too true 😐👌
@not hen hahaha true and sooo bullshit, and what about wollowits's wife (i dont know the names, never really watched it). But dang, two 10'ns dating a two 3'seses. Would have been okay if they got normal wifes instead of models, but thats tv💁🏿♂️🤷🏿♂️
Neelix was just a poorly written character. He didn't really offer anything and came across way too needy. And he was dating a 1 year old.
Remember, these writers didn't even know that an ensign is supposed to make lieutenant after a few years. I guess in light of that, we couldn't really expect competent work from them.
Stikking with the prime universe.. how is that bad? There is a whole infinite universe to explore. But we have to create a new universe to tell interesting stories? Huh?
Maybe it's because of having so many years worth of canon to stick to. I think it would be nice to have a show that starts completely fresh and not hindered by any of the other shows
"Of course none deliberately sets out to assassinate a character or kill your childhood"
Dr Who: *sweats profusely*
*modern Disney/media industry*
I wonder if Chris Chibnall and JJ Abrans will ever return to the mirror universe....
Thank you!
Well thought out points and respect them of course but don’t agree with point 1; I’m not exactly a die hard life long fan but I grew up on mid-late Voyager and Enterprise, then retrospectively fell in love with the rest. I think if you’re invested in a certain history and chronology, you don’t really want to see everything rewritten. The biggest crime for me was making into darkness at all, should have been something all new instead of messing with something so loved. Agree with Discovery having messed with things needlessly as well; it’s a big universe with so many stories, why try and tie things together only to mess with the continuity... I think a lot of these criticisms could also be levelled at Star Wars as well, whether it’s Lucas needing to write in characters like Chewbacca having met Yoda in Ep3 or C3PO having already lived with the Lars family (Ep2) only to be bought back in Ep4, and then the JJ changing the laws of Star Wars metaphysics in the new trilogy. Fans of these things do get invested; it’s not cheap thrills horror series, it’s not Fast and Furious, it’s something else where fans grow up in these other worlds... my tuppence
The problem with the alternate universe is that it rewrites trek history. And loses alot of things that it shouldnt. For me, losing the idea of a hope filled future depressed me. I look around today and see that hope is less and less presented in media, therefore less available to individuals who need something to believe in. If all one sees is the bad, they will stop seeing the good.
!!!!!
I understand this point, and can see its validity. However with ST, STTNG, Voyager and then the move to less idealistic series like DS9 and Enterprise you can see that it's following the public's desire for more gritty stories.
Picard and Discovery all take a more series arc-based, darker tone. That's just how the TV inudstry is now, people (or at least the studios think) that people want distopia, not utopia. I can see both sides, but the market for a "monster of the week" type show is probably the smallest it has ever been. I really miss the way those show helped you fall in love with characters though. It's that slower pace that really makes people feel like they're on a voyage with the crew.
I'd say that Roddenberry's original vision of a perfect humanity was pretty boring for the purpose of telling stories. Narrative drama comes from conflict, flawed characters and overcoming adversity and that's why trek shows have progressively moved away from a holier-than-thou Starfleet. Honestly, I can't stand TOS because of how patronising and condescending the human characters tend to be! And it's not really that I want dystopia; it's that I can't relate to an unrealistic portrayal of a flawless utopia. I'd rather see flawed characters trying, against the odds, to do the right thing. Isn't that more inspiring?
@@travellinghat They do it because writing "gritty dark" stories is cheap and easy, and ultimately it's still just "good guys v bad guys" holier-than-thou. There aren't any "flawed characters" in Discovery just really bad (in some cases disgraceful - Tilly?) character writing...
The trouble is that I quickly get to the point of "who would actually give this person a senior position"? Can you really relate to characters when you suspect that they wouldn't even get past the job interview at your workplace?
@@travellinghat It was so boring they made five television series, several movies, countless books, comics, and video games about it. Talk about a snore fest amirite? /s
About the "4 years gap between new trek movies" : I don't think the reason for the fail of this series of films is a question of yeargap. I think everybody slowly awakened from the JJAbrams spell which makes you think he can make good movies just because he makes rollercosters pumping you with adrenaline. 1 year is enough to formulate this thought.
If Into Darkness had been good, that 4 year gap wouldn't have made much of a difference. But it was chock full of stuff that you realized was stupid even before you walked out of the theater. (Like the opening that had the Enterprise hiding from primitive natives...AT THE BOTTOM OF THE OCEAN.) JJ Abrams and his collaborators seemingly always went for the cool-seeming image (Enterprise flying out of the water!) at the expense of making sense (why wouldn't the SPACEship hide from the natives by STAYING IN SPACE?)
Beyond was a fun science fiction action movie that didn't weigh itself down with idiotic moments like that (or Spock's KHAAAAN, or the idea that you'd want a dude whose education was 300 years out of date to design hyper-advanced gear, or the model of the super-secret warship sitting on the desk of the guy who was conspiring to have it built...I could go on but I've gone on enough as it is). But I think it was handicapped by the poor quality of its predecessor.
No, we're not in a Star Trek renaissance now, it's more like a Star Trek dark age.
Perhaps a Star Trek reanimation, with Abrams as Victor Frankenstein and Kurtzman as Herbert West.
@Matthew Caughey Amen, brother, amen. It's easy to get cynical. You're right, of course. I need to continue hoping that someday these intellectual properties (I don't think I need to list them) are once again in the hands of those who simply wish to tell good stories and not simply lecture us. (Both can be done, but that takes skill.)
My thoughts exactly.
I think they 'confused' quality with quantity. Just because there are two shows 'on' (sort of) at the moment and 'Lower Decks' and whatever the kiddies rubbish will be, and that the SFX and sets of the former two are 'very expensive and flashy' does not make any of them good. Nor does poor writing and wall-to-wall leftist intersectionality. What's on (and planned) now is likely to permanently kill off the franchise (the 'rebooted films' are dead in the water) or at the very least be on hiatus for a generation or more.
Kirk Immunity Syndrome head nod!
I would personally replace #1 with their reluctance to continue the Prime Universe. Nemesis, released in 2002, was the furthest we'd see for 7 years until Spock recounts his story in the 2009 film, and we don't see it again for 11 more years in Picard. I understand part of that was that the Abrams movies BECAME Star Trek as far as Paramount was concerned so they wouldn't want any Prime Trek to muddy the waters and consume more casual viewers but damn, given all we'd seen of the Prime Universe up to the point and then throw the destruction of a major power like Romulus wiped from existence seems like incredibly fertile ground for long-form storytelling. Given the fact that the events also played a major role in the first Abrams Trek film, I could see it enticing viewers from the Abrams films.
Interestingly, Lower Decks seems to be working to fill the gap between the end of the Dominion War and the destruction of Romulus. Yes, it is a comedy but even comedies can have great stories to tell and I've been very intrigued by the one being told by Lower Decks.
Can't wait until we finally get Season Three! 😅☺️😁
“Spock RETCONS his story”?
Uh, no! Even in the 09 movie, it’s explained that Spock created an alternative timeline, he didn’t retcon anything, and while yes, the Prime Universe at the end of the 24th Century and beginning of the 25th sounds interesting, but we already have Star Trek Online telling that story.
Granted, STO may be Beta Canon, it’s still something to consider.
Cheering for J. J. Craps "Kelvin Timeline" killed my good mood .....
I know. I aggrieved with most it until the Kelvin timeline. That doesn't seem like Star trek at all. It's too much a of a super military Starfleet.
Enterprise was getting good as it went on but the guy in charge didn’t like Star Trek and had it cancelled
The ratings were in the pan and they wanted to pivot to more cheaper, teen oriented shows. They were at the time starting to compete with the WB.
IMO, Enterprise was never 'getting good'. The only show that can start the series off with "Time Travel" as the plot hook should have been Doctor Who!
They had all the possible story potential of a pre-Federation galaxy and they couldn't get away from the idea that it must be a time travel plot from the future to change how the Federation turns out.
Did no one at UPN even watch Babylon 5? Look at their story....
Earth has expanded outside of our solar system...
There have been 2 major conflicts with established species - the Dilgar, which they won and the Mimbari (jury is still out on that one)
The parade of scandals...
Money is still a thing....
The poor still exist....
All of it was gritty, realistic and believable and the only example of time travel comes in 'Babylon Squared' which left more unanswered questions than answered ones until season 3. BTW, there were consequences to entering an 'out of phase' time field without protection!
Hey UPN - This is what real creativity looks like!
The way i see Neelix i always thought he's funny he makes me laugh, i never see him annoying but caring and loving and smart he also respectful, loyal and sincere. He's always there for his crew, solving problems, investigation, and comfort and he never gives up. And believe it or not Neelix is the main reason i finally smiled and laughed for the very first time when i was 4 years old before Voyager show came i was never a happy child i never smiled or laugh i was always quiet and grumpy even my family did everything they can to make me smile. Then one day i saw my brother watching Voyager and somehow i saw the scene when Neelix was all talking and mimicking about the crew it was on episode The Clouds when saw him first time and listened to his funny voice all of a sudden i slowly began to smile and giggle for the very first time and since then i continue watching Voyager everyday when it came on tv and started laughing so hard on Neelix funny scenes. My family were extremely shocked and surprised that i finally smiled. Thanks to the wonderful loving Talaxian hero Neelix he is a miracle. Neelix has been my most favorite Star Trek character ever since i never ever get tired of watching him. But i did became sad and i did cry so hard and sobbing when he left Voyager and my mother had to comfort me for hours. Somehow i still don't have the heart to watch Episode Homestead because it hurts me seeing him leave.... So i stick with the others continue enjoying him. I love Neelix so much he has a very strong pure heart and thats what i love about him. If i were in Voyager i would definitely want to marry him!!💘💘💘
Oh, I think JJ Abrams' lens-flared fiascos and the Kelvin Timeline dwarf any other bad decision.
It was completely diabolical.
Lower Decks, Discovery and Picard say "hold my beer".
@@piotrd.4850 They are all part of JJ Trek anyway, so it is all awful. it's so "successful' that absolutely no one is willing to distribute it internationally.
Star Trek 2009 was a practical test for JJ to direct Star Wars 2015.
Creating the Kelvin Timeline was simply lazy and uncreative (regardless of how well-acted and talented the movies)... If they wanted to say something new, make something new.
American culture as represented by the movie industry shows that the culture has reached the point in history at which it is dying because it now just repeats itself without creating any new ideas.
you lost me at the end... there is only one timeline.. the "kelvin" timeline is worthless fanfic
There are other timelines in Star Trek previous to it. The Mirror Universe is an alternate reality from the original Star Trek. I always thought that the alternate timeline described would not have allowed for the characters we know to have even been born, and was thus ridiculous, but alternate realities and time lines were a part of Star Trek from the beginning.
There has always been numerous timelines, that’s nothing new. The kelvin timeline is far more interesting and useful than people will ever care to give it credit for.
@@imkluu I only appreciated the Mirror Universe in TOS.
After Kirk's impassioned plea to Mirror Spock to take command of his "Enterprise" the timeline would have diverged far too much to have the racial and character arcs that we would see in later appearances.
I skip all Mirror episodes during rewatches.
Perhaps the biggest crime of all is that it wasn't needed. They wanted to reboot Star Trek with the "original" crew, they could have done it telling entirely different stories. Instead, they felt like they needed to justify shiny ships with an altered branch of reality, which alienated original fans (although you can easily debate the fandom's value, as it continues to refuse to evolve with new audience needs).
And shootign the engine room in the Budweiser factory totally ruined my ability to suspend disbelief. It simply doesn't look like a ship's engine room. And certainly not a Star Trek engine room.
@@ian9outof10 that's really what did it for me too.... "real" starships would likely use some form of liquid coolant.. maybe some exotic compound, but yeah.. that was a "budweiser factory" doing a cartoon bit
If the show isn't set in the Star Trek universe, why should it interest a Star Trek fan? I want a continuation of the story I was watching. If you want a different universe, make a different universe and don't call it "Star Trek".
Lol, it's called the Orville.
A show that does not have Star Trek in the title cannot use the Star Trek aesthetics. And any show is recognized first by it's main characters and second - by it's aesthetics.
I always have to skip the jealous Neelix episodes, his possessiveness makes him my least favorite Voyager character
He was Trek’s version of Kryten. He would have been a great Red Dwarf character but wasn’t developed enough for my liking in Voyager.
I always refer to him as that rodent with the mohawk hair. 'Nuff said.
Yeah, wish the writers had agreed what to do with him from the beginning. Here's a guy who is willing to lie, cheat and betray the Kazon, Janeway and new crew, and risk it all to save the woman he loves and then... next week... he's a jealous little twerp? Like, what?! SO INCONGRUENT! It went from Bonnie and Clyde to a ridiculous version of the Muppets. It was jarring and foreshadowed how they were going to do Janeway dirty later on.
Character was only guaranteed for single episodes.
@@x--. when you say do the janeway dirty, could you elaborate a bit please? i dont say i disagree but im just not sure to what are you referring.
and yes, neelix was my least fav charachter in voy, although with every new rewatch kim is getting closer and closer.
@@pavlenikic9712 It was a reference to a lack of coherence with her character. One week clever and considerate, the next wild-eyed and hell bent. I have a distinct memory while the series was on-air of wondering what happened to the Captain where she'd become so crazy unreasonable after her nuanced and well-reasoned behavior the week before. Now I can pin that on the idea that the writers were disrespectful of Kate's character. She became more plot contrivance than person, in some instances, and others they would build up a conflict with her and then resolve it with a hand waive. In fact, in another VOY video on YT where she decides to leave the crew behind and remain in the void I critique the whole scene as undermining Janeway's character. Wish there was an easy way to link to that comment but hope that gives you a sense of what I mean (granted, I haven't done an exhaustive review and analysis).
They really need to hire Ron Moore back. He gave some great advice about Voyager, Enterprise, and future Trek shows in general back around 2000. You can still find it archived somewhere, although I think the original website that did the interview isn't in great shape. If they had listened to Moore, Voyager would have been much more successful and Enterprise probably wouldn't have been canceled. And his advice still applies to Trek today. Moore said this about Enterprise in 2000 and look at how well it applies to Discovery:
"The STAR TREK past, it's challenging; it sounds like it's fun on one level, and I thought that was an interesting way to go for a long time. But it has a lot of pitfalls to it. You have a very complex future mapped out. If you are going to go into STAR TREK's past, say, pre-Kirk, you better have an iron-clad commitment to maintaining the continuity that's been established, or I think you are just going to lose everybody. Because if you go back before Kirk, and you start screwing around, and you just don't care what NEXT GEN or DS9 or VOYAGER established, or the movies, or even the original series, you just try to make it up as you go along, I think you just lost everyone. The whole franchise will just collapse, because it will have no validity whatsoever. If you are going to go there, you really better be prepared to truly put on the STAR TREK mantle and be the keeper of the flame."
As much as I too want Ron Moore back, I don't think he's interested (though he put out some interesting ideas in the DS9 documentary). Robert Hewitt Wolfe would be great to have back and he's said on Twitter he'd be up for it. Just keep Brannon Braga as far away as possible.
No, it's not the gap between the first 2 JJ movies that killed the mometum!
It's the lack of a real cohesive story, thing that make sense and fit into the Star Trek Universe as well as characters and their development.
JJ is quick bang for the buck, but when you look behind all the effects and action, it's hollow!
Just a more specific problem with what they did with Discovery's continuity issues. Making Section 31 mainstream, in DS9 they were basically unknown to everyone other than a few select people in the quadrant. but in Discovery soon as anyone sees the black badge they knew exactly what it was.
To be fair, you could probably pick the entire top 10 list of problems from just one episode of Discovery...
This. I can't stand the way the new series are using Section 31, for exactly the reasons you've described.
@@Josep_Hernandez_Lujan People would still know OAS or SS by name alone. im sorry what point were trying to make again?
@@frosty848 In DS9 Bashir & Sisko had never heard of 31, were repulsed by the very idea of it. In Disco, not only do the crew recognise Tyler's black badge as relating to 31, but they also sort of shrug their shoulders in acceptance, as though they've seen it before.
@@zingzangspillip1 because in DS9 they needed to explain it to the audience. That is it.
I’m fine with the Kelvin timeline and the Prime timeline, mirror universes, just about anything. But I HATE how the Borg were watered down! The Borg were soooo scary! And now they’re no more of a threat than any other hostile race. Takes all the fun out of it.
Considering the quality of the writers.... they didn't have much choice. They had written themselves into a corner and either weren't capable or weren't willing to explore the possibilities of "How do you defeat an opponent who can adapt to whatever you do after the 1st use, species wide"
Agreed, would be nice to see the Borg come back with a vengeance, somehow...As a matter of fact, it might be better to see the BORG destroy Romulus, or Vulcan, than some other Mary-Sue adversary...just a thought...
I've said the same thing. The Borg got punked. Basically, they just became another bully with an Achilles heel. As a sci-fi fan, I accept various scenarios as the writer has the right to create what they deem best for the story. Not all of them work, but at least they tried. I do think overall, Star Trek over used the Mirror Universe (I'm looking at you DS9). They also underused the Romulans and the Ferengi turned out to be clowns. Many Quark/Ferengi based episodes were fantastic, but over all, they were side bars.
What ever happened to the Borg Cubes' ability to self heal? Or their total disregard the codes of ethics? (an alignment?)
@@daydreamer226 There is still the possibility of the Kelvin timeline encountering the Borg. They could do it right that time. (fingers crossed)
Issue with the Borg is that they are too powerful and their goals are too final. So they have to be watered down in the show, same with Tyranids in 40k.
Both stand as a lesson that making your big baddies so powerful and so alien makes for bad story telling.
Making the final episode of Enterprise not only just a holodeck episode of TNG and fundamentally changing the Pegasus episode at the same time.
It didn't change the Pegasus episode at all. Through that whole episode Riker wrestled with whether or not to tell Picard and stuff happens off screen all the time, some times it's referenced sometimes not but, making it a TNG holodeck program was total bullshit I agree, but it didn't a thing about the TNG episode they shoehorned it into.
Adherence to 50 years of canon and an established timeline limits good storytelling?? Seriously?? That's only a problem for sitcoms!
One of Star Treks' strengths was its perceived faithfulness to canon, they made plenty of inroads into uncharted (non-canon) waters, but whatever the percentage of deviation, it was usually seen, at least by the majority of core fans as 'mostly faithful.'
IMHO alternate world timelines are often an excuse for lazy writers to stay lazy and continue to offer sub-standard, poorly conceived cookie-cutter characters and uninspired dialog. Witness the multiple non-sensical exchanges between Michael Burnham and Sarek in season 1, so many missed opportunities to explore Human/Vulcan relationships, so many incongruencies regarding their interactions, do I have to spell them out? Spocks mother could have been put to much better use when exploring the family relationships revealed in season 1
Canon need not be a straight-jacket that chokes the life out of a story. 'It's only a story.' you might say, well, why not change the timeline every season? or every episode for that matter. (I just gave someone an idea!) There is a reason that Sherlock Holmes kept his tobacco in a Persian slipper from one story to another. Continuity matters, it breathes life into a story.
Examine the interaction between Spock and Sarek at the end of Star Trek IV. Spock's father tells him that his opposition to Spock joining Starfleet may have been in error. Spock's only response is a raised eyebrow, and yet we fully understand the weight of his father's admission and Spock's surprise at hearing it. At that moment we have no problem identifying with Spock and we know how he feels. a poignant, well-written scene, ably portrayed by actors who know their characters cold, thus allowing them to bring considerable emotional gravitas to a scene that could easily be dismissed otherwise.
The action-adventure geeks and probably the studio accountants might like to opine out at this point that great action/adventure stories don't need these explorations into characters cultures and ideals, and while this is not untrue, it should be noted that Star Trek was never conceived as a vehicle for propelling action over substance. Star Trek at its core has always been about ideas, and people, often in a sci-fi setting, but always well-grounded in a world if not completely familiar, then at least understandably evolved from our own world. This format offers the exploration of ideas and characters to a degree not always possible with other formats.
Admiral Kirk probably sums up this philosophy best in Star Trek IV when he says: "I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."
Live Long & Prosper folks!
I agree completely!
I honestly don't understand the issue with the "prime timeline"! All non sci-fi stories ever told are told in the "timeline" of human history. We don't have dramas or action flicks that pretend WWII never happened or that Europeans never went to America, etc. Like you say, it's not a straight-jacket it's just lazy writing!
If you believe a re-title of Enterprise is a Top Ten unforgiveable decision...ok, the Ferengi episode was a kind of sequel to a TNG episode...Engineer Torres was exploring her Klingon Heritage...if you believe we are in a new Renaissance because of Picard or ahem Discovery...the JJ movies were CRAP...Killing Kirk should have been #1 by a long ways...and ummm unless you use the Mirror Universe, you have no other established or even mentioned alternate realities until New "Trek", unless you include the Xindi stuff from Enterprise since that cannot be considered to exist in the so called Prime Universe...overall, this vid was a complete waste of 18+ minutes of my life!
Yeah. This list was really cobbled together.
A Star Trek "renaissance" under Kurtzman? Are you taking drugs? Kurtzman is single handedly destroying Roddenberry's legacy and everything Star Trek was meant to stand for.
These dime-a-dozen entertainment channels owned by major corporations masquerading as little ol independent channels is becoming a problem. It's the corporate borg taking over the internet.
“Star Trek Into Darkness has its flaws.” Indeed.
It's easily one of the worst ST films ever. Worse than The Motion Picture. "Final Frontier" is close, but I would still say Into Darkness was worse.
I think that Abrams' films were merely action adventure movies, with the ST tag affixed to them. I can appreciate the desire for Trek, after 4 years absence, but the depiction of the contemporary Spock was ridiculous, as was Kirk's ascendancy to captain, with the insistence on going back to the Khan well, once more, was a convoluted hot mess.
I have no regret about the scuttling of the fourth movie, particularly, when Axanar was superior to all of the Kelvinverse renditions (putting aside Peter's financial doings), IMO, and would have made a fine theatrical release. This was the real reason, I believe, that CBS decided to bring the hammer down, which stopped everyone else in their tracks, unfortunately.
Into Darkness was one of the best Star Trek Movies. I would say number one.
@@johnnyfacchin6469 I've watched ST:09 a few times, "Beyond" a couple. Have not seen "Into Darkness" a second time and have no plans to.
@@johnnyfacchin6469 You are in the minority then. JJ Trek is a travesty. If they really wanted to spin it differently they should have put it in the mirror universe and not just copy and pasted all the names onto people and ships that looked and acted nothing like the source they were copied from. Hell, Galaxy Quest was a better 'Trek' movie than any of the Abrams bullshit.
I really feel like a lot of this was written by someone without a good understanding of how the shows works. Like yeah Kes is 2 but her species lives to about 7. They age/mature 10x faster than we do. It's like they were doing something else while watching the show.
9 to 10, actually. There's an "alternate reality" episode where she marries Tom, her daughter marries Harry, and the Doctor has hair and calls himself Van Gogh. So we can't just fault Neelix for dating single digit age women.
True, in actuality Kes is in her 20s, but even then clearly much younger than Neelix. Especially experience wise.
@@oddish4352 what's the episode called?
@@sirenia1241 Before and After, I think. It's pretty trippy.
I think I watch these to frustrate myself because life doesn't do that enough
Re: _Picard._ You and I must have watched a different series. I thought the Artifact was essential.
One thing that really fascinated me about the Enterprise, as my Dad told me when I was really young, "the Enterprise is so big they had to build it in space".
That sparked my imagination and got me hooked on science, math, engineering, space.
But Jarr Jarr Abrams movies took ALL that away by making it into a big construction project.
When you see the inside of it, it looks like an oil refinery or some kind of 20th century processing plant.
Third thing, I waited for a year to see that movie. I was hoping they would show its maiden liftoff!
No, it's already in space when they first show it.
Jarr Jarr Abrams is NOT a Star Trek fan!
The internal shots of the JJprize were filmed in a Brewery.
Stay in the Prime universe, I'm sick to death of reboots.
@Rodney James whats stopping them from making new stories about Kirk and crew in the prime timeline? Not every adventure of Kirk has been told.
@@Ray-dw3wg His fate and future is already written in the prime timeline. The Kelvin timeline gives the audience the thrill of knowing Kirk can actually die. That's like if they created another TNG movie during the series. We already know each of the characters' fates.
I'm not saying the Kelvin timeline is good, because I'm not much of a fan myself. What I'm saying is start another generation of Star Trek, after TNG. Put it sometime in the 25th century so we can continue the story of the Trek universe. That's what TNG did, and that blew up the franchise. The franchise doesn't need to hang onto the original series and TNG characters. Their stories have already been told.
I disagree with #1 if they had used the kelvin timeline we wouldn't have got Anson Mount.
They wouldn't have gotten me as a viewer, either.
@@koreygeren2677 And they did with the rubbish they went with?
Anson Mount is so far the best thing about Discovery. And Episode 1 and 2 Georgio. I agree with this list that killing her was a bad idea.
Chris Jones so do I
@@mattevans4377 somewhat, a lot more otherwise
@TrekCulture
Apparently you haven't seen the episode "TUVIX" where Nelix Gets a better understanding of Vulcan.
Basically everything came up to a head there... but it also gave Tuvock a understanding of Nelix
Would've been great except they went for the ol' Voyager reset button trope.
Your dissing of "Enterprise" showed how shallow this list is. The show was indeed cancelled but seasons 3 & 4 the show had found its footing... almost like every Trek it took a while to hit its stride and develop synergy.
The best Trek latest installment is without a doubt the Orville.
Can't wait for October!
Loved the show the Oraville but I thought it was canceled
Just delayed
It's cancelled 😭
@@monicaolsson7608 - no, it's not, read some more about it, it's more complicated than that.
People were already saying it for season 3 and it happened.
Nothing is certain regarding season 4.
Ronald D. Moore was so pissed off that he literally made his own Voyager with Blackjack and hookers.
DS9 was before voyager! Unless your talking about battlestar Galactica. Don’t mess with BSG reboot! It’s awesome!
Yeah BSG was awesome, they should let Ron help out but with Voyager. I was really into it
Battlestar James Edward Olmos is legendary. It's also free till the end of July on the NBC website.
Yes, but he also proved that TV was hard, starting with that godawful BSG boxing episode, and finishing with that godawful Starbuck nonsense through to the end.
@@ian9outof10 I don't think the boxing episode is awful but yeah, the finale and the whole "Starbuck is an angel now" is beyond terrible.
Yeah the Borg Cube story in Picard was a wasted story element that felt tacked on to the main story.
Still can'T get over the fact a Borgcube got taken out by one Flower.
@@DerNesor I'm not surprised. It was probably the first time the Borg were hit by that particular type of weapon. Since they hadn't encountered it before they hadn't adapted a defense against it. Same way the Enterprise-D's phasers were effective the first time they were used against the Borg.
@@DerNesor At the very least it should have been something along the lines of the planet killer from the original series. You'd think a planet of synths would be defended by something equally synthetic.
I was hoping it would lead to a twist that Seven of Nine, with all the fleets of the Romulans, Borg cubes that show up, Federation and the AI at the edge of the Galaxy poised to destroy each other, would send the Cube into the past, but unable to control how far she sends them, finds herself 5000 years in the past, where no Borg currently exists.
The twist being that Seven is and always was the Borg queen, in a paradox. Her actions to save the drones lead to the creation of the Borg.
The whole Picard was a wasted story
Killing Jadzia Dax: DS9
The Kelvin Timeline
Negotiate with Borg: Voyager
Killing Data: Nemesis
Killing Jadzia wasn't totally the writers idea. The actress who played her, Terry Farrel, didn't want to come back for the next season so she could focus on her family and home life, so they had to write Jadzia out somehow.
@@DragynGirl Terry Farrell quit because she couldn't agree a new contract with the show. She wanted more money than they were offering so she quit.
Brent Spiner felt he was looking too old to play data. He was right. That was why he died in nemesis.
Uhh...killing Jadzia wasn't *THAT* bad! What more could they have done with her character in one season left? The Ezri thing was more interesting. And it finally paid off Bashir's love for her.
Adam Abbas at the very least, Picard fixed Data’s death but why did he have to die in the first place! He could have simply used that handy aging subroutine. 😂
This list is terrible. I stopped after the third entry.
Neelix was the most annoying main character in Trek history. I never understood what the character contributed to Voyager.
@Logic Police at least Wesley Crusher had the excuse if being a teenager. Also, he wasn't as wierd looking as Neelix.
Neelix started off rough, but became quite a good character. Kes, on the other hand, never went anywhere.
Why are there so many "old Star Trek is something to shame for" episodes here?
Because the writer of this video is a fool.
Virtue signalling earns pity points from idiots.
Erm... how is any entry in this video shaming old Trek? The closest thing is perhaps Voyager using recognised enemies like Klingons, Romulans etc, but that's not shaming old Trek, it's shaming Voyager for wasting it's opportunity many times to tell stories about new races, new ideas, the entire premise of the series being set in the Delta Quadrant.
Because there is like 40 episodes of New Star Trek and 700 odd episodes of Old Star Trek?
Okay, that last one shows you're out of your mind.
Agreed 100%. I almost spit water all over my computer screen when I saw it.
I actually disagree with almost all of these points :).
I guess they should rename the channel "NewTrek Culture and Discovery Worship"
I've never disagreed with a list so much.
Really, the only thing I can partly agree on is Neelix and Kes.
This list was mostly garbage.
@AngemonRulez I just don't like that they put Discovery on a pedestal and stomping on any other Star Trek series, thats it.
I personally wasn't a fan of the Kelvin timeline
Especially in the 2nd movie when they'd gotten Benedict Cumberbatch to play Khan
His performance as Khan didn't hold a candle to the original version played by Ricardo Montelban
Enterprise has now become my fave series and killing off Trip like that was just stupid and I hated it.
The greatest loss was the evolution toward excessive and mindless violent action themes replacing the moral "Aesop fable" quality of the original series. Roddenbery understood the importance of treating the viewers with respect for their curiosity of how a more enlightened future might one day become.
This!!
Most underrated comment!
Tbh i can agree to an extent but i think looking back at the original series, its quality is completely overrated, and im not talking about foam rocks and William Shattner two hand punches. While the original series has its good episodes it fails from the fact that it was sold and produced as a "Space western" since that was popular at the time. I think TNG minus Roddenbery was able to take what the original series had and provide much more content of a much higher quality. The newer Star Trek shows are heading down a darker direction similar to what DS9 did and remember DS9 was hated until Enterprise was launched. I wouldnt judge the new shows fully until they are over and you can get a full image of whats going on. While season 1 of discovery was super awkward and didnt make total sense with some of the decision making, season 4 turned out alot better IMO. I mean loo at the first season of TNG... its aweful! TNG! The Trek show that most fans consider to be the pinnacle of what Trek is was aweful and awkward in its infancy.
What is this "we?" This sounds like just your gripe list... another in collection of hundreds.
I agree, did he take a poll?
ExACTly!
Yes - leave Nelix alone. Although the Discovery stuff filled up most of the video. I don't think this guy even watched the original series.
Most of this was about Discovery and Picard, which we argue isn't Star Trek to begin with. (Hey my 'we' is just as justifiable as his :))
Chakotay is underrated
Very much so, the fact that they had to rely on magical Native tropes rather than an honest look at the Native culture of natural respect that they started with, and pretty much abandoning his Maquis principles which would have played off Janeway's aggressive nature bored me to tears in the end. And then they paired him up with 7 just to give him something to do in the finale
@@lauram5905 I'm not expert in the native traditions of native Indians but I hardly think they have truly explored them.
@@theindianlad393 They did a nice episode with medicine wheels and meditation, and then ruined it with the spirit animal schtick
@@lauram5905 They should have alreast let him reach his own native roots..
That may have been better
That's because the actor hated the characters treatment, making a vicious circle is poor treatment of the character, making the actor harder to work with, making more poor treatment of the character.
Am I the only person in this timeline who considers Michael Burnham the most blank, unpersuasive, irritating and boring protagonist in all franchise? I truly cannot understand why Sonequa Martin-Green is praised so much.
Because if she wasn't as good of an actor the character would be even more boring.
Careful, your walking the tightrope of being labelled a racist and a misogynist. If you don't like Discovery or it's "powerful" protagonist it just has to be due to some form of bigotry. Trust me, I know. Despite my favorite Captain being Benjamin Sisko, I am a "racist" for not liking the Burnham character, and despite my love for Voyager and it's Female captain, I am called a "misogynist" for not liking the latest female led star trek series.
I'm sure you're not the only one but she's one of my favourite Trek characters of all time.
@@UnknownUzer I can read the sarcasm, but I actually think that's the problem. The writers were like, "let's make all these characters STRONG WOMEN(TM), but they didn't know how to do it without just showing us Michael being the universe's kick ball.
The other issue is they didn't give us enough filler episodes to see what her character was like.
@@anastasias6352 I think you've hit the nail on the head for me. I'm not opposed to serialised TV, but more like DS9 with stand alone and character building episodes. Perhaps this could have helped make discovery more entertaining and the characters more well rounded from my perspective.
I didn't mind Voyager encountering Alpha Quadrant species: that they would do so was typically compatible with the premise (the Caretaker pulling ships to him from all over the galaxy). I loved Voyager, definitely up there with the best of Trek, but I agree it was often fighting with it's own premise. Voyager at it's very best was in the Year of Hell, when Voyager was being absolutely hammered and things were desperate - the show needed more of that feeling, to explore more the emotional and psychological cost of being so far from home, the crew not knowing if they'll ever see home again, and realising that their families probably think they're dead... not every episode feeling like they just shipped out from DS9 two weeks ago.
The unforgivable sin of Year of Hell is that it turned out to be yet another reset button episode.
"Walking hormone Tom Paris"
Oh shit, I'm dead. That's too accurate.
after he met b'lanna it was harry who was a raging teenager around seven.
@@aaronrichards2842 Yeah it annoyed the F out of me. Everyone calling Neelix a pedo with his real love for Kes. But 7 of 9 who mentally at times was extremely childlike. Harry chasing her like a dog. Why doesn't anyone call him out for that?
Bashear was even worse.
@@bshays21 Yeah, that insinuation about Neelix was dumb. She is obviously a mature, highly intelligent young woman, despite (arbitrarily) being only two years old.
Riker was the worst. There were even times his Captain (or his own underlings) had to remind him to focus on task instead of on some nearby woman. The writers and music and audience were always on Riker's side, but objectively he usually behaved like a horny, moody, petulant juvenile.
I'm ok with everything being in the Prime universe seeing as most of the Kelvin Universe was shit. ST: Beyond was the best of the 3 and I'm glad they stopped there.
It's painful seeing that movie bashed all the time too when I thought it felt the most "Star Trek" of the three.
Burnham is an awful character and for me personally spoils Discovery. Pike saved the last series single handedly
She literally the WORST character on that terrible show. Michelle Yeoh is fantastic though.
she cries so much and those prosthetic V shaped muscles between her eyes are incredibly distracting
Say what you will about Kelvin Trek(i keep picturing Calvin & Hobbs in Starfleet uniforms, for some reason....), it would've been nice to set Discovery in that reality, as it would've explained why they did what they did in the show....
Seeing that poster of Grace Lee Whitney as Yeoman Janice Rand was a treat! Thanks, friend!
Discovery might be one of the most badly written shows ever.
It totally is
The point about Burnam's "character" boiling down to just being bounced around from one heart-wrenching trauma to another is a problem that's affected several women fictional characters in the last decade or so - perhaps most famously Lara Croft in the 2013 Tomb Raider reboot trilogy. Actual growth and desires are substituted with "how much can we make this person suffer without actually killing them?" It's just an endless parade of physical trauma, losing friends, betrayals, near-death experiences, fear, dread, more physical trauma, loss and.... oh god, can we move on, please?! It's lazy writing and completely misses what makes good characters or their growth arcs.
Well, you know how us women are, just too many emotions. How do we handle them *rolls eyes*
@@lollywit I believe they have indulged themselves too much, and there is no longer a moral context in their life. It's just pure self flagellation while they take everyone else along for the ride, thinking there is some benefit in that. Respect for human life does not appear to be on their list.
Tomb Raider is especially frustrating because the first reboot was supposed to be an origin story to relaunch the series again but after 3 games she's still origin-ing and it's just boring
Well, you could sell it as high speed emancipation - Burnham gets all the trauma in 29 episodes that O'Brien had to suffer in 176 episodes...
The Decision I can't forgive is: Your considering DISCOVERY to be Star Trek -- its Not.
The Star Trek franchise lost me when they destroyed Vulcan in one of the movies. That should've been number one on the list.
Off topic? Who Star Trek needs back the most in my opinion is: Ira Steven Behr. (I'll say it a million times & everywhere)
the old ISB (the one of ds9). I dont like his newly found piety and the way of thinking.
Agreed. Kurtzman should get replaced by ISB.
@@Jeremy_Fisher Agreed, but then again, I would view Kurtzman being replaced by a garden gnome as a step forward ...
Tpol and Seven of mine are the best things to happen to star trek since replicators. " .. I'll be in the holodeck.."
“Neelix’s relationship with Tuvok was especially egrearious [s]”.
I think you meant egregious.
archaic: remarkably good - It was similar to Spock's and Dr. McCoy's "frenemies".
I was thinking the same
Maybe he meant agrarian - as a vegetarian, Spock loved those veggies and Neelix always cooked layolila-root
@@daydreamer226 lol how did spock get into this…
@@dragoonempire oops, me thinks me meants to say Tuvok
/oh the shame
Number 1 is idiotic using a new universe would put off a lot of people, hell a lot of people hate the kelvin films and are only glad they are a separate universe because they can ignore it.
This 100%. I'm put off badly when reboots throw out tons of existing lore. I like how they made the Kelvin timeline its own thing, and I like that it's canon that it's a totally separate thing. I wouldn't mind seeing more Kelvin timeline films, but not as a takeover of all things Star Trek.
So true...
JJ Abrams destroyed Star Trek, just like almost everything else he touches.
9:13 If Romulans wear simple face masks to help protect themselves while performing surgery on Borg drones then imagine what they could do to protect Americans against viruses. If only we had that technology now.
This channel seems to treat Post _Star Trek: Enterprise_ Trek as something most fans don't hate...
@Bill Davis Yeah... makes me wonder what the motive is behind the creator(s) of this channel. Either they really like it, or they're getting some benefit out of talking positively about it.
“New Trek” bootlicking
Captain Lorca should have been the source of conflict in the second season.
He the warrior who needed in a time of war, but now is having to deal with peace .
And he clashing with the Federation rules in that time of peace.
That would be a far better series then what we got.
It's a decision we can't get behind that we stick to prime timeline?! Enjoy your downvote. It was earned.
People discussing Trek and including JJ Trek, Discovery and Picard don't deserve my time. It's like "ignoring new garbage in case they talk about Star Trek".
@@savage1267 Legit, that's how I feel... Sticking to the Prime Timeline being a bad decision was just final straw... but with as much as they talk about the news "treks" and the topics not being "They decided to make this" the downvote was WELL earned.
The only problem of current Prime timeline is the needless prequel that is Discovery and the mishandled Picard series. That’s why this nut wants Trek in the Kelvin timeline.
what abrams did with his butchery was as bad as what singer did to xmen. if these men had statues I would tear them down. but there is a way to fix it.. like ishtar without the crying and singing, a canonical edit can make this cancerous turd into a prime timeline masterpiece. I would volunteer but I am still busy with ishtar. having a hard time getting 44 good minutes out of it.
Agreed. I rarely downvote a video, but putting the Kelvin timeline as #1 was just the opposite of what makes Star Trek good.
Star Trek died when ENT was cancelled.
It died when ENT premiered
I loved "Enterprise" but Star Trek didn't die as we still have "The Orville". 😁
@@sam21462 The Orville wouldn't exist without Star Trek. That's what makes it too cringe to watch IMO.
@@notyou8716 - Of course it would not exist. The entire show is a love letter to Star Trek as Seth MacFarlane is a Trek superfan. It is a loving homage and about as far from cringe worthy as I can imagine. This, by the way, is coming from someone who grew up on TOS reruns and wrote letters begging to have The Motion Picture made. Far from cringy, I think that Seth and his good ship "The Orville" are the current best representation of what Star Trek was meant to be that is currently in production.
Rick Berman and Brannon Braga were pilloried daily. The venom dear god. Now their work is held in high esteem.
The Kelvin timeline exists because people inevitably die... It was insurance for Star Trek and I honestly respect the effort.
I loved Enterprise. Was so sad when that got canned. They really blew it by cancelling that one.
Agreed
I do love Emperor Georgiou and the chemistry she has with Michael, but I do wish they hadn't done the prime universe version in so quickly.
One of the things that should've been on this list was Khan being familiar with Chekhov in Star Trek II:The Wrath Of Khan
Chekov never even appeared in TOS episode from which Star Trek II was based on
Its prequel.
The powers that be explained it this way:
Chekhov was on the ship working different shifts so we never see him on screen with Khan
Good try, but the whole thing means nothing to me either way
@@savage1267 a prequel is something that is set before another
Star Trek: TOS was about 20 years before "The Wrath Of Khan"
The TOS episode "Space Seed" was the episode that Khan was originally introduced, and Chekhov wasn't part of the bridge crew when that episode originally aired
Try again
Day Dreamer I heard Chekov was recovering from something in the other room in sickbay. I’m aware he wasn’t there but I’ve heard someone involved came up with that as an excuse.
@@daydreamer8662 I'm not so sure I agree. Chekhov was a prominent officer who would have been involved in those events. It is perfectly plausible that he just didn't come into the camera's view. It's not as if the imaginary characters knew they had to make an appearance for an audience. Koenig was probably sick that week, what would you have them do? Maybe choosing him to be on Seti-Alpha 5 to encounter the pissed off Khan was meant precisely to inform us he was there in the first place. Just a thought.