The Uncomfortable TRUTH About Skill Based Matchmaking...
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- Опубліковано 20 жов 2024
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#callofduty #modernwarfare3 #blackops6 #skillbasedmatchmaking
I'm so glad you mentioned the fighting game community because when it comes to fighting games, the thing that I love is that it's all on you. No team to blame your mistakes on. Knowing that I'm climbing ranks and fighting people who are the same skill or better gives me a rush I don't get from many other games.
five sf6 master rank here. yup hes right.
I just picked up sf6 the other month and its taken over my itch for a comp game. Never feels like ur being cheated by the system and there is always value in the losses. Most other genres feel like the algo is purposely trying to get a rise out of you to keep you “invested”
the mentality is also that most players playing fighters want to be good at it. There isn't a "casual" community for the FGC depending on the fighter. Most players play with the intent to get better at it and the matchmaking proposed here is biased for a player pool that does not care about that.
@@artnok927 knaw. Actualy most fgc is casual. Even among pros. I for one dont care to get better at any outside of sf6 and just want some good games. If thet beter ggs shake they hand and cary on. Far more player mentality than competitor spirit.
I think the main thing people are missing is what you said “climbing through the ranks” you’re actively able to track and see your progress. In CoD for example, casuals has a hidden MMR that you’re matched on so you never actually can tell how good you really are. It’s not fun seeing yourself break neutral more or less every game regardless of how good you get, especially when there’s no clear indication of skill level to track alongside it
Matchmaking is what it is. What ran me away from online games was the proliferation of cheating. It's a losing battle for the developers who are always a step behind.
yeah I made a video about it years ago and it's sad that everything I said in that video is still relevant today. Ai is just gonna make it worst. :(
bro ligit facts. cheaters bother me way more than any sbmm
The eomm is what drives people to cheating imo. Its not a coincidence these 2 have risen at the same time
My issue with cod and a lot of mp games today is that they no longer have persistent lobbies. I remember back from around cod 4 to about black ops 3 you would play multiple matches with mostly the same players give and take a few players leaving and joining in.
You would remember the one guy running around with a riot shield last match and specifically play to counter him the next match. And you would probably talk a lil smack in the pregame lobby. Its the kind of interactions like that that would keep me playing just one more match. But nowadays, it feels like I might as well be playing against bots because there is no social aspect to these games anymore
Honestly my main and probably only problem with SBMM is that lobbies disband after each map which messes with the feel of community. I remember playing bo2 and graining friends from my team and the enemy team some of whom I still am in contact with till this day
Exactly! I met some of my oldest friends from playing search, we used to stack up and run rematches against an enemy team ALL FROM PUBLIC MATCH LOBBIES
I agree. I don't remember exactly when most games started to do this, but when I noticed this is when I started to not like games that don't have persistent lobbies. I think it has something to do with how games today use 'dedicated servers' now instead of back then when one player in the match would be labeled the host, and if they disconnected the whole match is borked for a moment as it selects the new host
I still remember Ubisoft's battle royale Hyper Scape. Quake style heavy movement based, you couldn't land a hit on a pro, they would play in team and wipe the map.
Ubisoft refused to implement SBMM and the game died in 2 weeks.
ahhh man that brings back memories :(
"But is the lack of SBMM going to be enough to keep XDefiant alive?" I was playing MW2 (2022) when Ubisoft started marketing XD to the anti SBMM CoD community and It's wild to see the vocal XD community be mostly conspiracy minded Cod refuges who may just get Bo6 anyways.
Can't run a test like this without fixing the cheater problem first! It's not sbmm that everyone hates It's the on the fly Engagement manipulation modification!
For me sbmm has many forms. There's one form where it purposely puts you in losing/winning games so your win rate stays where the devs think is best for player retention and selling skins. That's the sbmm I hate. I have 2 good games then the next game I'm facing mlg nerds who don't miss a shot or my teammates are so bad it seems like it's their first game ever. Then there's the normal sbmm where games are competitive and close and those are my favorite. The one sided stomps aren't fun on the dishing or receiving end and most sbmm makes matches like that unfortunately.
SBMM in games dont help sell skins.
It ment to just keep you invested. Which mades me think of drugs😂
Activision posted a doc showing thats exactly what their sbmm is designed to do@@CyrusIsnt
What your talking about is range, some times it gives you slight higher matches some times it get lower matches.
The sbmm cod use is actually called eomm, games like overwatch also use it.
This video is a good summary of the normal, lightly implemented sbmm that honestly tries to create good match ups of players.
However, it doesn't cover the more aggressive Engagement Optimised Match Making that is present in almost every shooters today. This EOMM is there to control the outcome of matches to ensure that everybody stays at a 50% win rate. It will match you with better oppenents and worse teammates to make sure that you do not win too much. Playing loses all meaning when outcomes are predetermined.
CoD players have the competitive mindset, but in the ranked mode. That's why they want the casual mode to be less intense.
Also, I don't understand why people agree with Activision's conclusion of their testing. Turning off their system designed to artificially increase player retention will inevitably decrease player retention, of course! The point of a lot of the Eomm critisisms is that these kinds of systems achieve that increased retention through manipulation and deceptive methods. Candy Crush is not a good game because it manipulates millions of people into buying hearts, no? Why is retention inherently a good thing?
Bad players have also been conditioned for years to think that they were better than they really are, so of course they will ragequit if sbmm is turned off.
Imo, these findings are nothing more than a vain justification for Activision's greedy practices.
well said. people still falling for propaganda in 2024. this entire "whitepaper" is designed to gaslight people into making the incorrect comparison of sbmm vs no sbmm when that's not even the real concern players have been having..
Amen brother.
This!
Of course sbmm resulted in players leaving the moment it turned off, they convinced these trash players that they are better than what they actually are.
I honestly dont trust Activisions numbers cause why would they make a study going against an algorithm they are paying for and investing in go against said algorithm.
I see where your coming from but COD is an old franchise at this point. Say what you want but they know how to caiter to their player base.
Do you really think they would talk shit about a system that they've been using for 5 years if it didn't work they would have stopped using it.
@@rexthewolf3149 right, this is a system they spent a lot of money on so it would be a waste if they came out and said "yea our studies show that people actually don't like our SBMM algorithm at all"
It does work... "to sell more bundles and cater to the lowest common denominator".
Match manipulation (EOMM) is good for no one, as it homogenizes our experience making every match very similar.
@@sherrdreamz7232you are 100% correct. It designed to keep everyone at a 1.0 kd and keep you playing as long as power so you spend more in their store. Eomm is the worse thing that ever happened to cod in my opinion. All of the outcomes of the matches should be determined by us the players not some manipulative algorithm that makes the game play us and not the other way around. Let’s just be clear no other fps game can dethrone cod only cod can do that. So until Eomm is taken out of the game cod is dead to me moving forward. The are plenty of other fps games to try and single player games. I agree with what you said 100%.
I can see this video blowing up randomly outta nowhere
lets see if the algorithm gods bless me
definitely
This game is designed to keep you at a low kd. Nobody can convince me otherwise. Mate when you play well 1 of two things happens. You get matched with 2-3kd players(I used to look up these players in 2019 because id be matched with higher kd players ALL THE TIME) - that have the nuke calling card. OR. You get crappy teammates while it feels like scump and optic are on the opposite team. I know when I get an easy game its sbmm manipulating my exp. I dont feel good stomping on a negative kd player and in that moment I know ive been given an easy lobby to make sure I play longer.
The difference is, when youre aware the game is giving you easy wins it doesnt feel like youve improved. It just feels like youve stomped a noob and the next game it will be your turn to get stomped. This game is dead bro
I agree. This video is insanely misguided and only gives the company manipulating the masses more strength.
In short sweaty players don’t like to play other sweat players.
They want to try and beast out on weaker players.
It’s why one encounter the opponent just tries to shoot back and the other the person starts jumping, sliding, running in circles and spazzing out like they’re having a seizure.
not really, i just want competent teammates… everyone going 2-6, 1-5, 0-3 while i’m goin 11-3, enemy team got 15-1 5-2 4-7. cmon bruh
The insult "sweat" was always dumb to me. If I'm playing online I'm playing to win, yet it's an insult to try to want to win??
Yes
The only thing I can really say is in light of sbmm, me being put up against “sweats” as a fairly casual player can be crazy frustrating, it almost feels like the system has failed me a bit putting me and others like me into lobbies that feel like everyone is playing with money on the line. It’s easy to lash out against the skilled players trying to win I guess.
The thing is gamers dont want "fair". Even studies show when gambling that if you lose money, you cant just get the same amount back. That would feel "fair" to people, its needs to be double. People love those blow outs (mostly content creators). Thats why things being on a fair will always cause problem. They dont want to fight on the same level, unlike fighting game players, pub stomping is what people really want. That power fantasy. What you said at the end is 100%
I just think people give up too easily now. The poison of 'convenience' has dripped into the gaming community. People want to buy head starts or gain the edge. Nobody wants to be met with a wall they struggle against
Thr main problem is the massive amounts of ppl that play this game 10+hrs a day everyday fuckin up the fun using meta weapons and buying all the shitty bundles
I hear this and think most people that play a game and want to do well will use the best stuff they can get, and the people that don't care about doing well shouldn't care what the people trying to do well are using
@TheDarKris not if I gotta deal with them every lobby. The above average daily player trying to do a camo grind is fucked the hardest in this game nowadays. I got back on for the alucard skin and have definitely regretted it since it's a booty sliding, pogo stick, color bomb mess with op bundle weapons
@@TheDarKrisNot exactly. There are good players and “good players” when I was running amateur circuit in cod I would use meta in actual matches rather than pubs. Pubs I and other good players would actually try to find out what was good on our own. No Jgod vids, no “best loadout” vids nothing. I’m still very good at the game but 2 things changed. 1: Those “good” players are now the ones running things. Constantly check vids for movement tech , loadout vids the whole nine. 2: To make up for lack of skill they ONLY use meta because that’s only how they do good. SBMM NEEDS to exist because of this imo
That's a myth I don't play the game everyday and never will it's not that fun I had friends that did with a kid 0.4 game time does not equal skill I have a positive KD play twice a week and will take a break and game usually gives me a easy lobby where I drop over 20 kills then when matchmaking becomes insufferable I take a few weeks break again and come back and one of my first games back I beat my pr
@urbout2lose u get easy lobbies after a break? I played yesterday to see if it felt different. Still playing guys over level 100 I've prob played like 40 hrs max this year and get the sane lobbies I got last year. And damn is this game more of a mess then when I left. Map design team played borderlands a little too long and those bundle weapons and skins have gotten worse somehow
Titanfall is a good example, I actually stopped playing it at certain times because I just get stomped and its not that I‘m a bad player, I main the Kraber and I recently switched to the CAR for a match and ended it with 35 pilot and 8 Titan kills, the kraber is basically a way for me to not stomp people but around 22:00 in Europe the game just gets unplayable even for me…
It's important to note that COD has been around, actively, for more than 20 years - 17 years of the "traditional" multiplayer since COD4 - and the people who are the most vocal against SBMM are those who hail from the old days of the X360/PS3 generation.
But as we all know, we tend to see these past titles/generations with "rosed-tinted glasses", ignoring the problems those had to face at the time (and yes, blowouts that happen today used to happen back in those days as well). And, above everything else, the average player skill on FPS, whether it's console or PC, has dramatically increased over these past years because of a myriad of factors (increase of e-sports, constantly playing similar games that improves your general skill, better peripherals/consoles/PCs that allows you to extract more performance) in which people seem to overlook.
Case in point: XDefiant has no Skill involved on the Matchmaking (it has, but only for balacing teams once players are picked) and it has NOT eliminated the issue of "sweaty players" and "blowouts".
SBMM was in COD back in the day, but it wasn’t as strict. They focused more on team balancing.
You’d have 1-2 demons per team, some average players and then the bottom of the barrel. In a scenario like that, everyone got to have fun. The demons for to do abut of pub stomping while still competing with the demons on the other team. The average players got get kills against themselves and the weakest links while feeling accomplished when winning a gunfight against an opposing demon. The same goes for the bottom of the barrel. The experience was organic and scratched everyone’s itch. Every now and then you’d get a lobby where you’d get stomped and vice versa.
This SBMM now is overly manipulative and doesn’t feel organic which is the issue. If they wanted a game to keep everyone playing, they wouldn’t be ignoring the higher skilled players. Their goal is to keep as many players on regardless of fun/enjoyment to continue to make as much money as possible. Activision has lost the trust of the community which is why this cry is so loud.
I understand the importance of SMBB since I played with my brother, and he's almost 40 amd, has a kid, and gets home late. When playing together, he really doesn't do well, but when playing solo, his lobbies are much more in his general skill. That way, even he can become the top person in the lobby and have some fun once in a while and complete challenges. My and many others that complain about SBMM is that we can't see the hidden MMR. And that's frustrating because the lobbies that I'm getting are on a whole other level compared to the other 20% of the player base. Example of showing your MMR is Hunt Showdown. They don't have ranked, I don't think, but in public matchmaking, you can still see your MMR, and it gives you a general idea of where you are compared to the player base.
I don’t mind having sbmm in games i just think cod sbmm feels manipulative. Do you truly like the game or is it before you get off the cod, they give you an easy game to keep you on since it’s heavily changing after every game and not calculating your whole career stats, and to me. since there no visible rankings it makes it difficult to know you are getting better or not, are you winning and stomping because you are in a lower bracket or are you stomping above your weight class. I feel like theres a lot of bronze players who think they’re platinum saying something needs to be nerfed or buffed because they don’t understand the skill it takes to use a certain set up.
Cant deny that skillbased matchmaking ruins the fun sometimes. All i want to do is have fun bro 😭
Why you choose to measure well create biases in your rating system. The current crop of SBMM uses subjective evaluation systems, while when they make excuses about SBMM always existing they’re ignoring that these were statistical bias systems. They replaced a good system with a garbage system.
The problem is not just SBMM, but them manipulating my engagement to get a their resulting outcome.
Quake Champions is the king of games that's player base is just sweats
At the end u validate what i was thinking. I was always beem above avg player in COD. But since MW2 2019 SSBMM has sometimes treated like im a sweat. Sometimes my homies didn’t want to lobby up cause they now my lobbies was tough. Rather than complaining i just give COD a break, started playing more single player games. Got into MHW 😊. Thanks for the vid Ethos. When that game dropping.
main thing i hate about what skill based matchmaking has turned into, is the disbanding of lobbies each match. i miss hopping on and getting to stay in lobby with the same few randos for a couple hours
I put alot of blame on general SBMM hate to Battle Passes. BP's are toxicity amplifiers and divides players by turning one death from a good player with a meta weapon into a vile gatekeeper who's allowed by the game to deny you your money's worth. You're alot more sensitive to cheaters, oppressive metas, kill-stealing teammates, and even tough matches when it's 9PM, you're stuck using pistols on a bad character to beat 2-3 Weeklies that goes away in an hour.
They don't use SBMM, they and most mainstream games nowadays use EOMM, engagement optimized matchmaking.
So it's not about matching you with same skilled players, balanced competitive fun, it's about any manipulative way to keep you logged in.
For example, 3 wins in a row means you are more likely to log off. So it's in a companies best interest to keep you from getting 3 wins in a row.
Then Activision starts to become the most egregious when they patent and most likely use things like, lowering ping the better you are, making your shots less accurate or more accurate based on whatever the algorithm is trying to achieve.
They have all this data easily available, the system already knows who is going to win and lose.
Good videos to watch are from Josh menke who used to work for halo 5 and now works at league of legends. Which both the halo series since 5 and LOL have very similar matchmaking.
True Sbmm is also a non issue, if all games simply had pure sbmm no one would be complaining. Xdefiant doesn't have sbmm in casuals and ppl are still mad about better players, some are even asking for it.
Casuals/players complaining is another topic in itself, you can never satisfy bad players untill the game turns into a pve game.
I hate ALL matchmaking, give me a server browser any day of the week
I used to play this F2P game called Combat arms and it had a server browser and I used to actually just make my own lobby and name it and pick the map and game mode and rules and people would ACTUALLY join cus they saw it in the browser. Why can't we have that anymore?
@@themarcsharkSnow Valley CTF 24/7? Say less. I don't care who's in it, I just know everyone in it is touched in the head.
@@themarcsharkCombat Arms was so fun back in the day 😭
People being duped by content creators to believe SBMM is a bad thing for most people. Granted an overly aggressive SBMM is bad, period, but no SBMM is worse. What you don't realize is that content creators benefit from no SBMM since it makes it a lot easier to get clips for their content, since you know they play that shit a lot more than the vast majority who's either on school or has a 8-5 job.
What they don’t tell you in that document is that the B testing occurred during free weekends, where players were tire kickers, never to come back ever again, win lose or draw.
the A and B testing occurred at the same time, where part of the population was A and the other part B
It's interesting, I see a lot of overlap with the people who are really really against SBMM and the "gaming is dead" crowd. I like what you said at the end in trying something new and diversifying what you play. A lot of folks play super sweatfeasts like modern COD and that ruins their enjoyment of gaming as a whole when they associate a lot of gaming with "shit I gotta sweat my ass off to have any fun". Sometimes it is that simple as just....trying something else
Its not at all a hard pill to swallow for me, I‘ve been saying this for years. Most people complaining about skill based matchmaking are highly skilled and pissed they can’t just kill some noobs. But those noobs are people who don’t have time to devote 8 hours a day to honing their skills on a game they also just want to have fun and being outmatched just isn’t fun. Skill based matchmaking is necessary to somewhat protect the more casual players from the highly skilled ones…
Nah this is why ranked exists, and you people always leave that out.
Started playing MW3 because it released on gamepass. I didn’t know ethos was chill like that 😂
Edit: I started playing MW3 because of gamepass recently. I’ve notice that those game has felt way better matching wise (I played all the free weekends). I thought it was because it was free but this video opens a my eyes. They should keep it how it is because having a lobby of all movement because I’m above their “average” feels bad to play as a returning player. Games like Titian fall & apex saved me 😅
I agree that mindset is a huge factor.
Playing XDefiant in its first three weeks made me realize something: whether SBMM is present or not, you win some games and lose others. Sometimes the games are close, and other times they're one-sided, just like in other FPS games with SBMM. So why invest in an algorithm that gives the same results as doing nothing? To me, SBMM in pubs feels like playing in a "ranked mode" that doesn't split at best and companies optimizing engagement for shareholder value at its worst.
You can't manipulate a truly random system, but you can somewhat manipulate a regulated one like SBMM. My friends and I switch between a few PC FPS games, so we don’t bother with ranked modes. But ill use Apex as an example. We often find our pub lobbies tougher than ranked, facing Masters players and the occasional Predator, as seen by their badges in the death screen. The disparity is big enough that we only play ranked when we don’t feel like sweating. Bronze and Silver lobbies get easier by comparison the later the split progresses as the majority of the good players move up tiers. Between the number of pub matches we play and the other games we rotate too we might barely get through Gold I
For us, SBMM removes the appeal of grinding higher tiers over multiple ranked splits. Even if we invested time to reach Masters again, why bother? We get a similar experience in pubs without the grind skill level wise, so we generally hit a high rank once to prove we can.
It was nice to play XDefiant and know there was no SBMM. We generally don’t play CoD-type games, but that one kept us busy for a bit. The lack of SBMM being a crucial factor. It's what got us over the hurdle to install Ubisoft connect.
I'm Joking of course but maybe the solution is to flip the script. Treat pubs as ranked and ranked as pub/chill for the games we all play 😂😂
Ranked systems have to somewhat abide by the rank you are for the split.
One thing I heard from another youtuber, KMBest, that sums up the mentality aspect of things is: "You're not entitled to win." I do think the Engagement based matchmaking system is awful though.
@@artnok927 you dont think EoMM is awful cus it protects you lmao.
I really appreciate you and the GI community for keeping it real over the years! I been watching since the GI radio days. W video my G
Love the breakdown. I loved playing COD before. I understand people are just better now. I went from 2+ kd dropping hundreds if not thousands of nukes/moabs etc. To I can't remember the last time I got a nuke and a 1.3 kd if I'm lucky. But I'm getting old lol great video playa.
For me I try to not kill myself over SBMM as even the best of players in other things like sports won't always win or do as expected sometimes, so knowing that I kind of do the same when it come to video games, there will be days I'm going to frag out but then some others i will be terrible. So I learned to not care too much as at the end of the day it is a videogame that me and other players like to play and try to enjoy :)
Activision saying that SBMM has been around since COD4 to defuse this SBMM dilemma is funny because
1) I played COD at a very high level since Bops1 and have played every cod from COD4 - MW2019 (+ some MW3). The SBMM effects were nothing like they are now. The only SBMM they had really was you get matched with people closer in your rank. ex: Prestige 5 matched with Prestiges 3-8 or something like that.
You know how easy it was for clans to hop in a public demolition or domination match and just spawn trap 6 randoms? You cannot do that in the recent games because everyone is just as good as you now. They made their "SBMM" guidelines way more stricter than what it was back in the day. I ain't tryna hear that
2) I believe their recordings in this 25 page whitepaper but it's a bit disingenuous. For 1, Activision is known to lie and do shady practices on the backend. Remember that leaked document of them giving you easier warzone lobbies if you bought skins to entice people to play the game more? And for 2, saying "no SBMM makes it worst for the noobier players" it's like no shit that's the effect. But you get stomped in 1 game and then have the chance of being the stompers in the next game. That's how COD always was.
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Now I'm only 8 minutes into the video so my bad if you touched on this Ethos, but the thing I see a lot of people failing to mention is the relation of SBMM and RANKED PLAYLISTS. Why would I want to be matched with people at my "high" skill level when I'm not playing ranked? Take Halo for example. Imagine if I'm Onyx in Halo ranked (the highest rank) but then I play with a mix bag of skill levels with my buddies ranging from Bronze to Onyx and we're playing like a 10v10 game mode with tanks, and rockets and a whole bunch of random arcade shooter stuff that isn't "MLG". You're telling me that 10v10 friend experience should be the same as my ranked matches?
I never understood the defense for SBMM when ranked playlists exist and the point of the ranked system is to face people my level, beat them, and climb the ladder.
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Edit: Also I just want to add on to this because I'm reading some comments about how "sweats" like me just play all the time and people don't want to practice for hours on end to keep up and honestly that's funny because I don't play COD at all and if I played, it'd be like 2 hours a week and I would still be considered a "sweat" by the average player just because of how good I am. I'm not playing more, I'm just not bad at the game and that's OK. You'll find better luck in the next lobby lol.
Think about it, let's say you're a "bad/casual" player who just wants to have fun after work. What happens when the more you play, the better you get, the higher your skill goes and then you get matched with people who are way better than you simply because they put in more time than you? See where the cycle lies? I think the only way to avoid this is to remove SBMM.
I'm better than the amount of time I play, but I'm getting paired with people who put in way more time than me and for me to beat them I will have to NOT be a casual player anymore. SBMM leads to a ceiling at your level where it becomes not enjoyable.
They used the more advanced statical bias system back in the day but since traded it out for the vastly outdated subjective emulation system. That’s right they took an improved system and replaced it with its outdated predecessor.
I've been destroyed since mwii because i use non meta loadouts, and yet my games are very frustating; so i moved to hardcore.
theres so many different ways to interpret this data with so many other factors that add do detract from anything that can be said about it. a few off the top my head are
1: middle and low tier players are never known to stay around, they are the casual, them sticking with a game or not has so many astrisks to each player it has many downsides of using that. if getting killed over and over because of any skill discrepancy, this was going to happen regardless the more they played since they would most likely consider its a game not for them.
2: this is a point i got from talking with my brother about it, but their are also some cases where they would also force worse matches on players that would be likely to pay for things to show off stuff. ive personally never played any CoD game so idk how egregious it, but my brothers example of war thunder on how you would more likely be placed in harder lobbys if you used free boosters, well if you were to use premium, you would be placed in easier lobbys. EVEN IF COSMETIC, this is still a factor, if it was turned off during these tests then thats a different story.
3: this is more so causals being inconsistent, them not playing these games for 2 weeks is suprisingly common, the amount of less then 2% of each category could literally just be chance data for it being as high as it is, but i do say there is some credence that there is a vary small amount. but i can also say that unless its being a continous pain point volcalized that matches are appearing vary unfair to players, like vary continous, thats still at least 98% of each skill division that didnt care about it.
4: and if they want player retention, why dont they treat the different skill tiers with different ranges, higher you are the looser it gets. even with this data that isnt outright perfect, they could do it for the top 10% of their skill tiers and condense it in lower.
GOAThos back with another upload
I think you’re missing the fact that the SBMM in call of Duty also affects other areas of the game like team balance, spawns, etc in order to get a desired outcome.
We don’t mind facing higher skilled players but unlike the fighting games and valorant we can’t tell if we’re playing against higher skill or if we’re getting better or not.
Always said that SBM and people that complained that all they ran into were sweats using it. Have you considered. You may be a sweat
I'm not though, but when the competition is on, suddenly 18 year old me takes over my 28 year old body 😅
That’s what I’m saying sweats want to go on kill streaks and slide everywhere. They just want to pubstomp. “Everyone better than me is a no life cheater everyone I can kill is a Timmy “
wonder why, could it be because there put against the best so they have to play at there best?
My only problem is that, when you perform well by not using the meta classes and meta bullshit movement exploits you still get paired with players that do simply because your stats line up with theirs, that’s the issue that I and my friends seem to always have.
Great video, all no lies told
There are former developers that have stated that there wasn't sbmm in older cods. It's not just some community theory
8:09 tbh headass😭😭💀💀
This basically said what i thought but with numbers to back it up
We need to be clear here, SBMM does not exist in todays CODs (post 2019.) Engagement optimized matchmaking (EOMM) does. It’s an extremely sophisticated manipulation system used to make more money, and even has elements that weigh in on it such as how much money you spend in the store (This is a fact that is published in Activision’s own patents.) The data doesn’t lie isn’t necessarily true if you consider that the data can deceive. The paper they published showed a player drop off of LESS THAN 2%. And if you do data for a living you know that almost all studies have margin of error and it’s usually way higher than 2%, usually 4-10%. SBMM isn’t the problem. EOMM is. The reason people got so mad after 2019 is because they launched EOMM systems that were far more strict. I think a lot more people than you realize are really upset with EOMM, and not all UA-camrs are god at the game either. You yourself said you need to look at the entire picture and I think a lot of pieces of that are missing from your argument. As someone who collects data for a living and have helped publish many studies, to me it’s quite blatantly obvious that they are attempting to use this paper, which was not even conducted in an accurate manner and has way too many variables to be a true accurate representation of what people do at different levels of EOMM, is entirely skewed in an unethical way to push their own narrative. SBMM is fine at the level it was at before 2019 but they’ve taken it way too far since.
it isn’t even SBMM anymore it’s just EOMM bc they want more microtransactions and that is the system that makes them the most profits.
Called me a TBH headass but you made the video, while making this is hilarious.
Lmaoo yup 😁
I think one of the main reasons why Call of Duty players complain about this the most is cause if you are not good at the game, you get locked out of the best parts of it (Kill streaks). In other games like overwatch, you still get to do your fun stuff regardless if you are trash or not.
COD AI: *“Good players, yall had yall fun… its MY TURN BABBYYY”*
Thank you for highlighting this, Ethos. It validates what I've been saying for YEARS! SBMM is not the devil and removing it most beneficial to the top % of players who just wanna stomp the rest of us. Your point about Titanfall is something I've felt as a hesitant new player. I loved Apex and wanted to try Titanfall, but all the "praise" it gets about the elevated skill ceiling gave me pause. I'm past the point in my life where I want to practice in-game mechanics for hours. This was a great video overall.
I'll never understand why everyone's first thought is "good players just want to stomp" instead of "good players don't want to have to try like its a tournament just to casually play a game"
Lets be real about this for a second. The bottom 80% doesn't want to have to tryhard all the time vs the top 20%, the argument boils down to "I don't want to have to play my hardest in a casual mode". This is EXACTLY what sbmm forces higher skill players to do, it completely removes the casual aspect of the game for anyone thats above average. But if you try to tell a casual player that, they just freak out about having to try themself.
The reality is that NOBODY wants to have to be a tryhard 24/7 in a VIDEO GAME. Its completely hypocritical to say that sbmm is a fix for that issue, all it does it push it out of the average players view. Which doesn't help anyone, it just lets the low skill players feel better about their performance.
Not even to mention the idea that not having SBMM makes the game "Worse" for good players. Which would be extremely valid, if it weren't for the fact that higher skill players already play exclusively against high skill players. Whether the low skill players stay or not, SBMM forces high skill players to only play against high level players. You could retain EVERY low skill player in the game, and that makes 0 difference on the high skill players who never see those players in game. The artificial benefits of SBMM don't change that everything it supposedly does to "help" the game, was somehow completely unnecessary until recently.
@@NoHandsJamesOkay, then the good players can just fuck around online and they'll be placed in a bracket where they won't have to get serious, and if they ever actually try they'll probably be able to pubstomp as well. This issue really only exists because people have too much of an ego to accept a few losses just to get placed somewhere they're more comfortable
@@rheawelsh4142 I've lost 20 matches straight in my wonderful matchmaking bracket. Wanna know what the next 20 were like? The exact same.
Your stats are what determines your "skill". You're logic would state that any above average player has to purposely tank their stats to enjoy the game. Which is not only against ToS, but would lead right back to bad players getting "stomped".
The best part of your response is that the "ego" issue isn't with higher skill players. It sits with the lower skill players who can't accept that being bad means you will lose more often than you win. So instead of losing against better players, and gaining skill over time. We end of with a bunch of low skill players, who never improve, and think that every game should cater to a refusal to improve.
I have never seen a good player say they don't want to get better. That exact sentiment is the entire basis of SBMM in casual playlists, and why every bad player just quits if they lose a few matches a day.
@@NoHandsJames 3 things
1. Every player can play the game (let's say COD for relevance) casually without tryharding, always. To do otherwise is self imposed, just stop trying so hard. To want win while playing casually is a different matter. I would interpret that as entitlement, regardless of the player skill.
2. You're right to say sbmm pushes the "problem" out of the average player's view. That's the point. Except it's not the average player, its damn near every player outside of the top 10-15%. If the rest of a player base is happier and more retentive, then I'm not really concerned about the top players dealing with a sweat fest. That's what they signed up for. Otherwise, see point #1.
2.a. I'm not concerned with sweaty lobbies at all. That seems like a cultural thing rather than sbmm. Competitive gamers are more invested and numerous than they used to be. Its to be expected in any game.
3. The majority of any player base are already casual players who are playing for fun first. These people would not have an issue with sbmm because the mindset is different. They don't expect to be exceptional or win a lot. They just want a slight challenge. These people (myself included) don't gain anything from the removal of sbmm. They get more players in their games who have dedicated significant portions of their life to the game, crush them in ways they barely understand. No amount of trying can prepare you for that. Imagine playing little league baseball against an MLB pitcher. That's not fun. But if you're the MLB pitcher and sick of it, see point #1
@@GoFidoGo you're delusional.
1. Yes you CAN play without tryharding, except I've never met someone who enjoys losing constantly, casual or not. So saying that you should just "play without trying" is quite literally the most idiotic way to justify anything. Nobody wants to do poorly at ANYTHING they do, let alone something that is supposed to be a relaxing hobby. Good or bad at the game, people don't play games to have a bad time, and continuous losses aren't fun. It's absolutely ridiculous to imply that people should just play to play, even if the experience sucks.
2. Affecting the top 20% of the player base, which is their stated metric, still affects the overall player base. Just because bad players get to feel less bad at the game, doesn't mean it's actually better for the overall health or longevity of a game.
2"a". You're not concerned with sweaty lobbies, because you're not good enough to ever see one. It's like saying that you don't care about starvation because you can afford food. A shitty experience is still shitty, even if YOU PERSONALLY don't experience it. It's arrogant as fuck to try and say you don't experience it because it's "cultural" instead of accepting that you don't have to deal with it because you're just not very good. AND THAT IS FINE. You don't need to be good at every game, but sbmm only protects the feelings of bad players, it doesn't make the game better overall.
3. If every casual only "plays for fun" then it shouldn't matter if you get stomped or have an easy match. You should be enjoying the experience regardless by your logic. Yet here you are, defending a system that manipulates your matches so that you don't have a bad time. You literally only get to have fun, because other people have to experience a permanently bad time. Your want to have "fun" matches, is an entitlement to never feel like you're bad at the game.
The only people in this entire argument that are against having competitive matches are the low skill players. Y'all are vehemently against the game ever matching you with someone that is remotely better than you. You think that you're entitled to always have fun easy matches, because the inverse would require you to actually improve at the game. And oh boy, if you ever try to tell a low skill player to improve instead of being shit forever, you've essentially ran over their pet.
The fact of the matter is that your points are just bullshit. SBMM is there to make sure that every bad player never has to experience a hard match. It's so you all don't feel bad about your skill level and stop playing. It's not meant to make the game more fair, it's meant to coddle those who refuse to improve at something they claim to enjoy. The entitled ones are the bad people who think the game should be catered towards ONLY them, and say fuck the good players just for being good.
NGL. You convinced me. Great video my dude
I played a LOT battlefield BC2 BF3 and BF4. I DO not understand match making. I want my damn server Brower and player hosted servers back. It was much better. Match making always was going to head this way of lowest common protection. We had better ways back before match making and the cheater problem was at least more under control with PBbans and Admins having lists they could subscribe that had know cheaters live from OTHER ADMINS ADDING TOO IT. Match making IMo is the root problem not so much shooters mentality. It shouldn't be using SBMM for a game genre that started without it.
Epic Take on SBMM!
I would just like to know where I rank compared to others. Let me know my bracket. Am I improving as a player or not?
This is the truth about SBMM people didn't want to believe. PVP shooters aren't casual anymore, the average player is so much better than they used to be. The numbers don't lie. People who played during the "nostalgic" COD era were playing against worse competition. Gamers are far more competitive these days, especially with how much gaming has become more accessible and mainstream.
This is too true. I've been playing Call of Duty since COD3. I was mid until Black Ops 1 came out, then something clicked with me and I became a good player. I didn't become a great player until MW3(og) came out. These young players come in with so much information that they're just learning quicker. SBMM doesn't bother me. My improvement over the years makes me hungry for the challenge.
@@reggiemartin6709 Exactly bro, these days kids have videos that tell what the meta is, tips and tricks etc. All of these things give newer gamers an age a lot of us didn't have growing up back then.
That's interesting, I can say that with call of duty at least, strong skill based match making turns something I want to be a casual game into a very sweaty game in 1-2 weeks. The launch week chaos is always the most fun as the system is figuring out everyone's skill. Sure you get some blowouts but you have a much higher chance of doing really well if you're a solid player. After a few weeks when I'm matched with people very close to my skill every game was just a sweat match. I just don't wanna have to take COD seriously and would love to mess around with weapons and play styles. Casual games should have very loose skill based match making imo. I'm perfectly okay with and enjoy skill based match making in games that are genuinely competitive. That's what ranked is for!
I went around to the usual cod UA-camrs videos to see what they think about this and it’s so funny to me how many hold the sentiment that SBMM punishes them for being good When reality is they’re just not getting to pub stomp and have easy nuke dropping games like they want. You wanted to be good then you will have to go against other good players and continue to excel.simple as that. Imo I’ve never minded SBMM cause I always found it more satisfying to have to earn that win against those actually on par if not better. Literally what’s point of playing if every lobby there’s no one to really oppose you and it’s too easy….
the tbh headass had me rolling hope he reacts to this lol
I would love to see what Respawn has to say on sbmm for apex. Im of the belief that most of the players complaining about sbmm on apex are more sweaty than they realize. Considering how high the skill ceiling is in that game
Might sound even crazier but fortnite took the same route but thankful they brought back no build because at the end of the day the skill gaps for game gets crazier and crazier it used to be a simple y y button but now its a Y Y squat spin RB RB Y Y shoot hahah
I think sbmm is the result of how popular cod has become. Back in the 2010s it didn’t matter that much but the game is so popular now they need to appease the casuals which I guess is why sbmm is so much stronger.
the chibidoki clip lmao
Great video and very insightful. I never gave much thought into how much skill based matchmaking affects the overall multiplayer experience as I always thought that only applied to competitive modes (competitive is just another can of worms in of itself).
P.S. what Call of Duty game would you consider to be the peak of the franchise? For me, I believe it was Black Ops 2
It’s just a video game … bunch of 1s and 0s …. Ppl be forgetting that ….
Were you a Gunz Ijji: The duel player Ethos?
ahhh hello old friend. 🙏
Most people don't realize that there actually are people that benefit from skill-based matchmaking. It's just not apparent, because most people that do are super casual players that most of the time don't even consume video content about the games they play. They play maybe one or two hours per day or even just on the weekend, have some fun and then log-off afterwards. They also tend to only play with their buddies, just to have fun. I could imagine it not being fun for them to get stomped repeatedly by some streamers or just high-skilled players.
So I can fully understand why companies implement the system in this way, I just wish they would've been more open with this stuff sooner and cultivate a space of transperency and healthy discussion. I'm not argueing in favor or against SBMM, I'm just stating what I think is happening overall in the current gaming climate.
I think my problem with sbmm is it encourages stagnate meta. If you have a particularly imbalanced game like cod your "skill based matchmaking" is essentially "loadout based matchmaking" where you'll occasionally meet really good players, but the vast majority will lean on top tier weapons making every fight feel the same. And I don't know what kind of skinner box rat people still play cod, but it completely killed my interest in mw2019 after only a few weeks.
This is why we should legalize meta slave bullying. What kept titanfall 2 alive was cheering on scorch chads and mailing pipebombs to tone users.
The point of playing any game is to win. If you want to just get some kills and chill then COD isnt the game for you. We are all sweats. Thats kinda the point.
As a TBH head ass😅… I think you should look into EOMM(Engagement optimized matchmaking). And from my assessment (as a random online user) I think EOMM is what fps players dislike not SBMM.
Well if they want to have SBMM so strict than display our skill level.
I do understanded that it is needed on some level but i feel its over tuned and way to reactive. and the fact that they match you with worse players on your team to carry them is bogus.
They don't want you to know when they decide it is time for you to lose by throwing in a batch of teamates with lower skill ratings. I miss when our skill "rating" was visible like in Gears Of War 2/3 and Halo 2/3.
I'll be playing xdefiant until they bring back the matchmaking from older cods
Keep the vids coming G haha
Ofc SBMM meams more player retention.
Its the same reason slot machines have high player retention.
Youre probably gunna hop off after you have a banger game or two. Youre satisfied. You got your fix.
But if the game constantly teases you, and youre so close to that desired performce but keep coming up short, you're gunna probably stay online chasing that fix. Duh.
Idk about most of y'all but I find it disgusting and despicable that SBMM changes your health damage and hitbox in real time during matches. It's deplorable. To me, it shows that we're literally being played like idiots in a casino.
the amount of gaslighting in this article is insane lmao. older cods are not played for soooo many other reasons than it not having strong enough skill based match making lol. Activision putting out some strong propaganda right now
I've said it one video and I'll say it here, but sbmm seems like an all encompassing term for other sb stuff. Matchmaking isn't a terrible thing, but there are sb things that effect actual gameplay/core mechanics, and that is absolutely a bullshit thing to do. It's one thing to match me with people in my skill bracket, but if I'm lighting someone up with a "meta" weapon and they turn around and 3 shot me with the same "meta" weapon then it's a problem. I was near 2.0 k/d on the bo6 beta and the more I played , the less effective my jackal was shooting. I went from killing people at cqc range with 3-4 shots to getting 5 or 6 hitmarkers.
The facts of the matter are SBMM spares the lower skilled players an average of 2-4 kills per match. All this hoopla, for the bottom 10% (who don’t care for their performance) to maybe gain 2-4 kills. SBMM is the crutch newer players won’t admit they need because they simply refuse to persevere and “get good”. We’ve gotta stop catering to the crowd that don’t actually want to try and get better; and getting better involves getting your ass handed to you from time to time
just tell us our skill level
Threw I like for the far cry 3 theme
If you think that matchmaking optimizes for anything other than player retention, you’re missing the point.
How is player retention optimized? They just follow the data.
This is all fine and dandy but we can point to numerous other games that didn't have SBMM and did not have this issue. Battlefield is a prime example. Also, no one is really saying to entirely remove SBMM, we're just asking to not be surgically analyzed and matched against exact clones. Also, you can't compare a fighting game to a team based shooter, like wtf? Fighting games have a far larger learning curve so of course people are going to want closer matches there but even in fighting games, you can CHOOSE to play people on your level or play anyone. You aren't given the choice in COD or Apex or other titles with SBMM. It's forced onto you and many players find that annoying and unnecessary.
Been trying to tell ppl this! this is why XDefiant is dead. Catering to less than 50k ppl in a 10 million plus pool will never happen! They don’t care if those 50k quit or complain as long as 9,999,950 ppl are having an enjoyable time and putting in time on their product and inticing them to purchase micro transactions.
They obviously massaged the data. Of course after 5 years of sbmm all the protected class shitters would get mad and leave when they have to play against better players.
They intentionally bought into an fps with a known daycare system. Fact is casuals will leave anyway because they are not dedicated to the game otherwise they would improve.
" I don't want to sweat every day" then stop playing the game like it is a full time job.
Play something else especially when all u do when u play this game is complain complain complain
There's millions of games out there waiting to be explored. If u aren't playing this game as a way of making money then there's no need to play it like it's the world championships every day. And if u do play it for money u need to either be scrimming or taking these challenging matches as an opportunity to express ur skill
SBMM or none, im just tired of playing with M&K players, it's too sweaty and I genuinely struggle to have fun now with the game. I know other gsmes have a preferred input system so I know it's possible with CoD with how massive it's playerbase is so there really is no excuse. And this isn't an argument about which input is more OP, save that autistic shit for reddit or the steam forums, yes it's a skill issue because I actually have a life and I'm start to age. My statement still stands, the game is just too damn sweaty now.
If sbmm is necessary, then at least let me see my score/rank so I can at least have something to work towards or see improvements in my performance.
They won’t, because it’s not necessary. It’s all manipulation of the meek who’ll spend on micro transactions. When they realise they’re not as good as they’ve been gaslit, it won’t work.
i dont understand why people need this explained to them but it makes sense when you mention it comes from streamers wnating to stomp people, people just copy paste their views even tho it will make the game worse for them, people are really stupid
Tldr: sbmm is good for everyone except the people who want to dunk on players that they are way better than?
If they remembered to let lobbies persist they wouldn't need this nonsense
Also old cods had sbmm but even old devs have come out and said “it wasnt anything like modern sbmm”. I think you took what they said at face value to much.
They choose their words carefully so they technically arent lying which would be illegal. Eomm is a scheme to drive engagement by emotionally manipulating players by effecting the outcomes of those games. Its all with the end goal of getting players to spend cash.
All you have to do is look at the patents and how they can change game elements on the fly like hp, aim assist, etc.
I think you are well meaning but very naive on this topic. The problem with sbmm isnt that the matches are “close”. Its more about the game purposely forcing wins or losses based on what the algo thinks is more likely to get u to spend $$$$. Yall downplay the lengths they go to get people to spend money they otherwise wouldnt
Im more than happy to debate the topic tho 🤷🏽♂️
Need more vids from you bro
Two more are on the way this week. Next one drops tomorrow. 👀
@@GamingEthos 🤝
What are the arguments against skill-based matchmaking? Im not to deep into the weeds here but makes perfect sense to me to have it.
It just always feels unbalanced. Like he said, I'm new to mw3 and I'm facing ppl lvl 900 and it's been nonstop. Even at 3am😅
The one they depicted in the pdf is a means to an end where the end is just engagement and player retention (which aren't necessarily equal to fun).
@Super_Broly yeah, I get that, I'm saying what are the arguments against it? Like who doesn't want skill-based matchmaking
@@artnok927 So the argument against it is that having more varied skilled players is more fun?
Nobody wants to play with sweats and sweats just want to stomp on noobs
Word
sweats are small group in cod player base. there are more average/decent and noob player base which means if eomm is nerfed it will be harder to find great players. btw its casual play so it should not be ranked 2.0. the sweats should stomp decent players because they earned their skill. that's life. why get better if you cant beat lower skilled people in casual games ?. btw no sweat i talk to ever said they want to play against disabled noobs who just started playing so please don't speak for people.
We can do that much easier now with Smurfs and reverse boosting tho?
The problem is not that sbmm exists. It’s been around for a very long time. The problem is that it’s way too strict to the point where the game is practically rigging matches.
Watch Xclusive Ace’s video on the white paper. He’s against it but has level headed constructive criticism for it. Also note how he points out that the white paper loves going into detail about all the positives of this system but when it mentions negatives they omit the data. This system absolutely does have negative feedback. They just omit any details about it to make it look better.
You say “don’t take it so seriously”. Tell that to the devs who make these over engineered systems trying to min/max engagement to insane degrees. It’s totally unnecessary. Games like original MW2 had no problems having a healthy player base without super strict sbmm.
Also, the comparison to things like fighting games or valorant is a bit disingenuous.
Ya you don’t hear people complaining about that in fighting games. Because fighting games are more niche in part because they’re extremely competitive. People expect tight skill matching in games like that. Also, sbmm is easier to do in a fighting game that’s 1v1. There’s no team balancing to screw you over.
Valorant is also the type of game that you expect to be very competitive and has tight skill matching. It’s inherently more serious and tactical.
CoD has always been the run and gun not super serious shooter, but now it has strict sbmm even in unranked as if it is super serious.
Another thing is that in fighting games and valorant, the metric your skill is measured by is visible to you. You have ranks and/or divisions. In CoD it’s completely invisible which is terrible for such a strict system.
Their system is also flawed in that it’s built on the belief that the only time people are having fun is when they’re winning. A good pvp game can be fun even when you lose. But making games fun regardless of win or lose is hard, and you can’t plug that into an algorithm. So instead they create this false equivalence of winning = the only thing that’s fun, and create an algorithm that effectively commodifies this manufactured “fun”. Which is why it feels so awkward, fake and inorganic.
Also, before anyone mentions it, no I’m not some sweaty tryhard. I’m above average at best. My career k/d in my best performing games was like 1.5-2 k/d.
I’m not against this strict level of sbmm because I’m someone who pubstomps lobbies constantly. I’m against it because it effectively HARSHLY punishes players for IMPROVING at the game. It coddles bad players who can’t just take a few losses and learn from it by keeping them in their protected play pen, and it forces anyone who’s even remotely good into playing invisible pseudo ranked for no good reason and no reward.
It’s the antithesis of what makes a good casual pvp game. It’s like trying to treat mario party like it’s an esport.
That "document" nor does this video talk about why every SINGLE teammate I have never plays objective (even in TDM). I never win if I just run around like an idiot with everyone else and miss all my shots( 20+ days of playtime in MP and 20+ days in WZ so I damn well play enough). Why is winning the game SOLEY based on just my performance. The whole lobby should not be catered to me. Put me in with good players on the other team AND my team. But no, you just get fucked. Game is garbage. stopped playing a month ago.