Відео

I think Montage M is a far more mature machine than Fantom EX. MODX is also excellent.

FWIW you can achieve poly aftertouch for just a couple hundred dollars with something like ROLI Piano M, and personally, I don't agree that it's a gimmick. This video is just to show that it's possible to express poly-AT over MIDI, rather than an advert for any particular product or solution.

Very welcome!

Depends what DAW, but fundamentally the principles are the same. Create a 16 track (MIDI channels 1-16) multi timbral instrument in your DAW, record-arm all the tracks and off you go.

@@KierDarby Ok thank you :)

I really do like Montage M, but in producing this video I found out a number of things relating the MIDI implementation that are far less powerful than the classic Montage, which is a real head scratcher. I’m producing a follow-up video to discuss.

@@KierDarby For me, those are non-issues as I only play in my home office/studio. The M8x is my only keyboard controller and I have plenty of software synths plus Logic to do what I need. My most recent setup was based on the RD-2000 and a few different hardware synths (Hydrasynth Deluxe, Fantom 08) and I found I spent more time screwing around than playing/creating. The M8x has changed that for me. Your mileage may vary. Playing live all the way back in 80’s with a non-MIDI Oberheim Modular 8 voice was interesting. My method to hold a note was a #2 pencil. The Yamaha KX-88 and Roland D-50 soon followed. Then a series of workstations. While there are alway improvements to be made, I’m very satisfied with M8x. Life is too short to drink cheap scotch, Cheers!

Welcome!

It would be Montage M8x, without a moment of hesitation, for all the reasons I go into in my Montage vs Fantom video ua-cam.com/video/sVg8HZRsXAc/v-deo.htmlsi=VLkx1DcoxstWFDyf

@ Thank you!!!

I played that game…the Montage M8x was the clear winner for me.

For the most part, things are the same in Cubase, except you need to have a separate MIDI track to manage sysex data, last time I checked at least. If you want to use USB and DIN MIDI ports in a live setting, you need to to use MIDI tracks in your DAW (or any other MIDI routing software) to transmit data from Port 1 (USB) to Port 3 (DIN) - once you have done that, you can use both ports in a live setting - but without software to route the signals, the Montage family cannot directly address the DIN MIDI ports while the system is in USB MIDI mode. Check out 46:50 for a demo of this.

Very welcome, hope you find it useful

Glad you enjoyed it. From a MIDI perspective, the 780 is a real pain, as Yamaha renumbered the 680’s voices so they sit in categories, but when selecting them with MIDI Program Change, they actually use the numbers from the 680, rather than what’s printed on the panel of the 780!

Win some, lose some. The MONTAGE M has one advantage over the classic in that the dedicated 4 x 4 grid can continue to show the live set layout even when playing a performance, removing the need to switch to live set view to load a new performance, but losing the ability to switch the page with a single click, as you say. As far as I am aware, there is no way to do this now.

Ensure that the Yamaha Steinberg USB driver is properly installed, that your MODX is connected to the computer using the USB TO HOST port, and the MIDI I/O mode set is to USB. The MODX should then appear as a MIDI source and destination.

@@KierDarby All done! Still nothing inside of Studio One, Maschine etc.

@ Just a heads up I figured it out. It was the USB hub port I was using. I have to switch USB inputs and everything worked fine! Thanks for your help!

@ aah good work! I haven’t had problems with MIDI through USB hubs, but I have found that audio over USB can be badly affected by some hubs, so I try to connect my Montage and Montage M as directly as possible to my computer.

@ Yeah I can see why now! These MacBooks are stingy on USB inputs haha thanks for your help friend!

Well.. yes :) From what I’ve read online, lots of M6 and M7 owners don’t realise that their instruments actually SUPPORT Poly-AT, so this is really just a demo to show that you don’t need an M8x to make use of the new engine capabilities.

No problem, I’ll get a link posted when I’m back at my desk in the morning

Here we go drive.google.com/drive/folders/1WVpsAN3chZKADaFEhHBg-NoIJdOtVg2m?usp=share_link

@@KierDarby THANK YOU! :)

My pleasure :)

Thank you! I do agree that these are enormously complex instruments, and they have a very steep learning curve if you want to produce results comparable to the preset performances.

Wow, I haven’t noticed the modality of the on-screen red boxes but now that you’ve pointed it out I can’t unsee it! Glad you liked the analysis - as an interface designer myself, I find so many design decisions in synthesizers frustrating and nonsensical, and Yamaha is not excused here, but from the perspective of an overall concept for an instrument, Montage has the edge over the “box of bits” Fantom approach :)

@@KierDarby The biggest part of the problem is that there is no parameter in system settings to get rid of these boxes.

I actually like the boxes, as it can sometimes be non-obvious what parameter you are actually editing when working with a multi-zone scene, but the fact that they are modal (blocks other input) is a real downer.

@@KierDarby It could be somewhere off-center of the screen. In the top row for example. When editing an EG or filter it could come handy but when it only confirms something like transpose or similar, it just takes my valuable time. Maybe I want to see the confirmation on the first week, but not each and every time I do something.

For Montage, 8 AWM elements or 8 FM operators per part, for Montage M it’s 128 AWM elements, 8 FM operators or 3 oscillators plus noise for AN-X parts - and sixteen of any of these parts for any performance.

​@@KierDarbyAh, okay, perfect. I have the Roland FA and I've also had the Roland Fantom 7 for two years, and I just bought the Montage M (still on its way to shipping) and I don't know anything about Yamaha synthesis in terms of editing. As you commented on the editing of some parameters of the elements, I hope it will be more practical and easier to edit in Montage M (mainly in the Envelopes). Thanks for the answer 💫🙏🏻

The Montage M does address some of the shortcomings of the original by enabling the under-display knobs to edit multiple parameters simultaneously, which makes things feel more responsive and immediate, but the lack of drag gestures on the Montage screen, seven years after the debut of the original is pretty poor. My Waldorf Quantum has drag support that puts the Fantom to shame and makes the Montage look ridiculous - but I’d still rather have a Montage if I could only have one synth.

I haven’t tried it, but I suspect that would disable the driver, which relies upon the relaxed security policy to operate.

@ i just realized thr editor stil doesnt work for thr 10ii, even with the driver properly installed this way. It's been completely replaced with the thr remote app. Anyway, thanks for the video. I've learned something new.

In your case, I’d look at getting a high end MIDI controller with aftertouch to really unlock the capabilities you already have with the MODX and software instruments. The Native Instruments Kontrol S88 (Mk2 or MK3) would be a good fit.

@@KierDarby Thanks for the suggestion. I already have a NI Kontrol S61 Mk2. It's good. like the Fatar keybed on it, but I prefer the feel of the OB-X8 and Prophet-10 even though they're the same Fatar keys. I think the main reason is because of the lightweight plastic housing of the Kontrol vs the aluminum/wood housing and heavier weight of the 2 synths. The Mk2 is getting a bit outdated, because it doesn't support the features of the Mk3, but the Mk3 will become outdated, as soon as NI releases the Mk4. This is why I haven't upgraded to the S88 Mk3 yet. I'm fine not getting anything new at the moment. In a few years aither all of this will be cheaper, or there will be something newer and fancier available. No hurries.

Yes, you can do that with Montage, MODX and Montage M very easily. The difference is that while Montage and MODX allow you to have both the internal tone generator AND an external synth in the same part if you wish, the flexibility to do so is somewhat reduced with Montage M.

I’m glad your choice is validated :) Montage just feels more ‘designed’ rather than ‘thrown together’ to me.

It’s a bit of a hidden gem. Mine had ghastly audio output problems when I first fired it up after 20 years in storage, but after a few weeks of constant power, it’s not quite pristine but certainly acceptable.

To be honest, on the full quality recordings I really can’t hear any appreciable difference between the two when they are playing identical performances. There are times where the performances are subtly different because of the changes in the architecture of the new version, but when playing things that are identical, they sound the same to me. That’s not to say that the Montage M doesn’t sound amazing, but rather that the OG already sounded fantastic.

@KierDarby thanks for the reply 🙏🏼. I'm surprised that there is no audible difference when listening to the original audio file, thanks for clarifying that. But sadly, I've heard this in other videos too :( there have been videos where they audition every preset, and the ones belonging to "Motif XF" category sound noticeably thinner compared to the presets which belong to "montage" or "montage M" category. I know what people say about youtube compression, but tbh, isn't every synth demo already on youtube? And many of them sound sublime, like Korg Multipoly and arturia polybrute.

But tbh I really love the new montage M's UI. It looks so much more accessible and fun to use. Endless encoders, dual screens, so many ways to modulate and poly aftertouch. It looks like a dream keyboard imo. Just wondering, how are the Motif XF sounds in the Montage M? Do they sound as good as they did in the OG motif XF? I'm a huge sucker for these old sounds, it would be one of the big reasons I would love to get a Montage M. Because on paper it carries the heritage of the motif series and brings new things like ANX and FMX (from the OG montage)..so it's super tempting.

@shehzadamurthy1983 I had a Motif XF before Montage. The Motif voices sound at least as good, and arguably significantly better when played from the Montage.

@@KierDarby oh awesome, thanks for the clarification. 😊😊 Looking forward to more demos from you on Montage M

The synth action on the 6 and 7 isn’t quite such a fuster cluck as the 8, but it’s still a far cry from the AT on any of the Yamaha or Fatar keys. A disappointment is a good description.

@@KierDarbya really excellent video by the way!! I’m subscribing.

On your Fantom G8, the AT felt strip might be aged, and shrinking a bit, thus getting the AT harder.

@@parkmediathat is possible, but my Fantom 8 has had shockingly poor aftertouch performance from brand new. It seems Roland simply doesn’t value it as a thing players actually use.

@@KierDarby Agree. We can say that Fantom 8 simply doesnot have Aftertouch. Old Fantoms were way better, proper resolution and playable force. I done repairing my old Fantom 88s AT with a replacement felt strip. (not G, but I suppose that could be similar than S and X)

Actually, I think Montage M is pretty close to the perfect keyboard instrument.

Agree! But not perfect! That’s why to make montage perfect I bought Behringer UB-XA ,instead of replacing it by montage m! Very good pair. I appreciate your work on UA-cam channel! It is very helpful to musicians! And me too 😉

Hi, I saw another video tutorial for Midi Settings on Montage M. Did you try to select on setting, midi settings and local control switch to on ? Then, maybe you will here both internal and external triggered sounds.. I hope it works. I was thinking to buy one montage m, just to combine VST and internal sounds but with a simple mute button to mute internal sound if needed as I could do on my very old Korg Pa3x pro.. Will be appreciated if you share your result. Best regards

No, that won’t work, although to be clear, this setting does not mean that Montage M won’t play ANY internal sounds when external parts are enabled, but rather than PARTS set to external can’t play internal sounds.

Yes, but the sequencer is based on real-time recording and punch-in editing, rather than providing a piano roll or similar editing interface. Montage M doesn’t have a specific facility for vocals, but it can play a backing track along with your performance, which could be a recording of vocals. This is all possible without a computer, but Montage is more of a live sound engine, and the things you are describing are much better handled with a DAW.

Montage M does have a sequencer, but it is based around real time recording and punch-in editing, rather than offering any sort of piano roll or step editing interface. For vocals, the system can play an audio file along with your performance, which could be a vocal recording. However, Montage should be considered a synthesizer primarily, rather than a workstation, and both of the things you have mentioned are far better handled with a DAW, with which Montage integrates seamlessly.

I’ll get them both uploaded to the Native Instruments forums when I’m back at my desk later today, and leave a link here. FWIW Montage M responds a little more predictably to the MIDI template than the classic Montage, but it’s still useful to have it.

I've posted both the MONTAGE and MONTAGE M templates to the sharing thread at the NI forums. You should find them here community.native-instruments.com/discussion/34278/kontrol-s-mk3-midi-templates-un-official-peer-to-peer-sharing-and-download-thread/p6

@@KierDarby Thanks so much! Any idea why I don't get any "Import" button on my S88, though? I tried following the instructions on that thread's first page: Settings › Shift + Browser. The keyboard is connected to the computer (Mac) via USB-C. The S88 should be latest version (1.8.7).

@@ram-4 not getting the IMPORT button usually means there is no data connection between the keyboard and the computer. Check to see if Komplete Kontrol instruments correctly show up in PLUGIN mode on the S88, and if not, check your connections.

Glad you enjoyed it!

Most welcome!