CLUB GOLFERS think this is KILLING Golf in This Country - WHEN WILL IT END!?
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- Опубліковано 18 тра 2024
- Is the handicap system is ruining this the game of golf in this country according some golfers in the UK! Do you agree with this? Or is this total rubbish? we go through a trending argument that is being discussed through golf clubs and many of my lessons have mentioned the same ting to me! IS the New handicap system and the changes for 2024 killing the game of golf in this country? Has it made golf unfair? has it made golf fairer did they need to change the handicap system? The world handicap system, golf world handicap system!
CLUB GOLFERS think this is KILLING Golf in This Country - WHEN WILL IT END!?
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*What are your thoughts on this system?*
Love it as far as getting cut, certainly easy to abuse and raise your handicap by putting cards in to scrub off good scores
System is too confusing but then again I'm 63 with no intentions of ever doing anything competitively
I think the worst bit of the system is how they calculate your handicap from different tee's. For example , i play of a 5 handicap and off the white tee's i play off a 2 and from the Blue (comp tee's) I play off a six. My mate who plays off a 24 , playss off a 22 from the white's and 26 from the Blue's. Why does one player loose more than 50% of their handicap and another looses less than 10%. Makes no sense to me at all.
In my clubs stableford competitions 50+ points has been shot frequently. Its a bad system. Like any system there is good and bad but this new system allows players to effectively choose their own handicap. The elephant in the room people is that club golfers both cheat and intentionally inflate their handicaps to win prizes. Sad but true.
@@RealFightingMan But that 'cheating' is not the WHS, that's always been the case - don't play quite as well/miss a few short putts in the weekly Stablefords then 'have a good day' in the club championship. You could argue that entering general scores makes it easier to manipulate by deliberately 'not playing quite as well', and I wouldn't strongly disagree, but you can't blame a 'system' for people being scumbags.
What's really going to kill golf are the rates they're charging to play a round!! Where I'm at, in the states, costs $50-60, plus $15 cart fee to play a mediocre course. Late rates, after 4-5 PM, are $30-35, plus $15 cart fee. I think I played 2 rounds so far this year. It's cheaper to go watch the LPGA US Open for the whole day, by over half. That's what's going to kill golf!! Soon they won't have to worry about high handicappers, because they're the ones that don't play that often, because they can't afford it!!!
The weather is killing golf in the UK
The cost of maintenance of courses has become very high. Between wages, equipment, and landscaping materials, everything has a high cost relative to ten years ago.
I played a round with the chair of our club’s committee not long ago, and he stated if not for the resort where the courses are located, the courses themselves would make no money, and that’s with green fees of $80 for the scenic course and $50 for the other. If they were stand alone courses, they’d have to charge more to make a profit. In addition, they try to keep the prices as low as they can because one of the Robert Trent Jones Golf Trail courses is only about thirty minutes away, and their green fees are $110, which attracts a lot of golfers due to the name alone.
It should be a very simple concept. It costs x number of dollars to open up an operate the golf course each day and it takes so many golfers to cover that revenue expectation. Unfortunately, golf courses think they're going to get two to 300 players a day charging a $150 a round and that's the budget expectation of the ownership who are carrying way too much debt.
@@tenparkdrive no such thing as bad weather only bad clothing. Fairweather golfer anyone?
@@FlankerJackChannel No mate, the courses were closed for months due to non stop rain. Most were water-logged from Nov 2023 until April 2024. It has been the wettest winter I've experienced in 40 years
I gave up my membership 2 years ago. I just got fed up with standing around on a golf course watching others playing shot after shot, because their 37 handicap allowed them to.
4 hours on a course is okay, but when a round routinely takes more than 5 hours just because the handicap rules changed and there’s a disincentive to improve your game, it’s no longer a sport.
I took a medical break from golf, left as a 6 handicap. Returned 7 years later, pals that were in or around the same handicap when i stopped playing were all mid teens handicap, the common reason “we can’t compete if our handicap is our ability to play”. It seems a race to as high a handicap as possible, i was raised on “get as low as possible” my best ever handicap was +1, now age 67 11 and aiming for category 1 again, my pals say i am mad, but my morals make me strive to improve. This new system sucks, and its actually killing club competitions, also that dreadful word “Cheat” is being used so often in club conversations, such a shame
As a 2.6 Whs index i get at best 37 to 38 stableford points….. zero chance of winning a medal. So dont do competitions any more. Last week 46points won…. Utter BS
Let’s not even mention winter golf off forward tees and winter greens …. The high index player make even more hay when the sun is not shining! (Not all of them to be fair though)
As a high handicapper I agree, either need to make it a % of hcap for comps, maximum handicap or something.
The problem is not the WHS, the problem is obviously how British golf clubs conduct their club comps. At least that's what I get from the many, many comments with complaints I have now read on this topic. Here in Austria (and for all I know in Germany as well) the "main event" in a monthly medal is the gross competition (even if it is Stableford). So that's usually the event for the low hcp players, and it usually has the best prizes. In addition to that, the net event is divided into 3 groups, sometimes even 4, depending on hcp index. Group A ususally has the players with a max HI of 8 in them, group B goes up to 20 or so and everybody above that plays in group C. There is an overall net comp as well, but nobody ever takes that seriously, because it is always won with 48 to 60 net stableford points by people who have only played for a few months, but are in the process of improving quickly. So, there are a few suggestions, which could be made to your club secretary: gross Stableford competition, groups for the net comps.
Yes same at my club, good players are deincentivised to enter comps and compete, it’s outrageous actually
@@alestev24stableford gross, I’ve never heard of that. Is the max gross score on a hole a double bogey?
My index is 1.5. Before April I received 2 shots at my course. After the change in slope/course ratings my playing handicap is now +1! Now I have no chance to compete, even though I normally shoot around level par gross. So I don’t bother, only 2 scratch comps a year where I play. Going to stick to charity days and casual rounds. Can’t compete against 40+ points.
When i started playing golf, maximum handicap was 24, however in medals maximum was 18 shots, as a junior couldn’t play medals until handicap was 14 or better, we got better very quickly because we had to. So lessons and practice was the order of the day. Now put some social cards in, get as high a handicap as possible and make hay, no incentive to improve.
I’m totally demotivated by the current system.
I watched the group in front hack their way round, and after 5 hours on the course and waiting on every shot determined never to play another competition.
It turned out that one of the four in front came in with 46 points and won off his 37 handicap. One of the four came round and apologised for taking so long and my reply was that she should apologise to the rest of the field behind us as well. Not my finest hour but it just illustrates my frustration.
I can’t remember a low handicap player winning. Including better ball competitions will further complicate an over complex system, you might as well include pitch and putt courses and crazy golf as well. The whole thing is a shambles from start to finish.
Everyone gets a trophy is now the norm
Having been playing golf for 45 years I have never known a low handicap golfer not complain about playing in a handicap competition with 'higher handicapped golfers'. Seems like nothing has changed.
Play off 1.
Shot my lowest 67 and didn't get in the top 10!
IMO a low handicap golfer (3 to 5) has a hard time beating a +20 especially when playing a Stableford scoring round.
It has ruined golf as a low handicapper all my life, i am 70 now and play off 8 but others have got shots back and some have been ridiculous, not just competitions but even in my favorite roll ups have been spoilt. I may as well give them my bank details, i refuse to play in them now it just costs too much if you never have a chance, especially when others laugh about how many shots they have, our staplefords are won now with 44 to 46 point, i pride myself still trying to keep my handicap low just me. so frustrated.
See my reply to drdarren666. Talk to your club secretary.
It was just the same under the old system. At our club they have used some creativity and have a number of prizes. Best gross, perfect round, net eagle hole, longest drive and nearest the pin. There is as much interest in the perfect round and net eagle hole as there is in the main prize.
It’s the worst thing that’s ever happened to the game.
We had a guy break the course record, only to finish second, low handicappers don't stand a chance when people are getting over 30 shots,bring back the old system where you got cut for good scoring and committees could further cut for continuous good scoring
I just golf for me. Goal is just constant improvement. Be comfortable and have fun golfing with any level of other golfers. Improve number of pars, improve number of greens in regulation. Improve number of putts per round. Just concerned by the numbers I achieve.
You have completely missed the point, we are focusing on the WHS not your reasons for rationalising why you accept such a terrible system
My point being is the “system” doesn’t matter
The WHS isnt what kills golf. Its rediculous, unaffordable green fees that are used as a way of keeping a certain kind of golfer off a course and out of a club house.
It think single handicap golfers should play a level1 competition and 10+ handicappers should play a level2 comp. Most clubs can accommodate a 2-tier system and it might encourage more low handicappers to play in club days.
As a 3 HCP 2.9-3.2, I won't play in anything handicapped anymore. I do my best always. Count every stroke. Leagues and tournaments I am usually giving 5-7 stokes per nine holes. Too many have inflated HCP because it helps them.
I don't care who i play with, im not competing with them. I'm competing aginst my last round/score. And having fun😅
You are probably holding up 60 or more people behind you. It is not uncommon here to see people walking off the course because people in front are 'just having fun' using their 37 handicap, wasting time between shots and generally being a pain in the neck.
Thats fine unless you actually are competing against them, in comps you are, and in matchplay comps last year i gave up 27 shots to someone. So i get it for you, but for low handicaps this really is a problem for people wanting to improve to low hc AND compete at the same time.
I play at twilight for fun. Not holding any other golfers up, especially those "competing" and hating on beginners. I guess some forgot they were beginners once. No worries! It's all good! Just keep in play!⛳️🏌♂️✌🏾
@@harrybrown6585 don't ever remember seeing your name on the pga or liv tour? Must be an alias
@@litchfiedr I’m just an ordinary working man with a limited time to play golf and I’m tired of hanging around wasting my time when I could be doing other things. It’s the inconsiderate people who waste my time and that of the players behind me that I have reason to complain about. I’m not alone as it is not unusual to see people walking off the course without completing their round because of slow play. If anything is ruining golf it is slow play.
In Australia, we play all club comp rounds as stableford.
Everyone enters comp.
With this system, your handicap can reduce even if you dont have 36 points. It will reduce if you beat one of best 8 flag rounds.
Keep in mind all tees are now graded so you can play of red. Or blue or white tees at your course and you will have a different daily handicap depending on what tee you play.
If play all your golf at same course. You will not see much difference.
If you play many different courses, its not un common for your daily handicap to be 3 shots higher or 2 shots lower than used to depending on course.
Not really many complaints from Australian golfers.
Clubs run 3 grades in comps A 1t0 12
B 13 to 19.
C 20 above.
Who wins the overall comp though if a scratch golfer shoots 3 under gross (39ish points) and a 37 handicap shoots 33 over par (-4 on handicap or 40ish points). The one player has played stunning golf and practice has been rewarded, the other has shot over 100 and pretty rubbish golf and been rewarded for playing slightly less rubbish than their handicap🤔
Max handicap for comps should be 18 simple as, dont like it get better! The only way I can see competitions even being remotely better is to play strokeplay and not stableford as that helps the higher handicaps to, at least the genuine higher ones should be having 8's,9's 10's on some holes give low handicaps the chance at least to beat them.
I stopped playing comps a while ago now 5hr+ rounds are a joke anyway, added to the fact all the bad players are rewarded for not getting better..................... amazing system.
Yeah, but there’s a lot of golfers playing off 18 who are actually 12’s and 12’s that are 8’s and 8’s that are 4’s
My only problem with golf is that I have no one to play with I'm 1 of those people that hates playing by himself. Nothing is really enjoyable or fun unless you're sharing it with friends
Then you don't really love to play golf, you just love to be with people
In some clubs single players are frowned upon and you almost have to beg to be able to play through. I play on my own often but only if I get the first tee time of the day or play late when it's quiet.
@@stevenc9207That's absolutely ridiculous.
@@stevenc9207 Not really the point but okay
@@jc238 my club doesn’t really frown upon single players, but I hate playing solo if I’m not the first person on the course or there late afternoon when the foursomes have died down. It sucks playing solo behind a train of foursomes and having to sit in the cart for ten minutes+ between shots.
Now that it’s warming up, I get to the course at 6:30am or I play a different day lol
Greatest disadvantage of the new system: I cannot calculate anything myself, Playing 35 stableford points, thinking I ve improved, then comes SD adj. and thows out this score, leaving 34 in.
?????
So two main thoughts come to mind:
The handicap system convinces me that I'm only playing at a certain level and that I shouldn't really be improving.
Second, if I do have a bad hole then I tell myself that I'm playing to my handicap and that allows me to carry on my round
It's not the WHS it's the ridiculous price of new clubs and the amount manufacturers churn out every year.
Been a cat 1 golfer for over 40 yrs, given up on comps no incentive to get better, worst of all we were never given a choice or a say at a point now thinking of giving up the game😢
At our club we have A B and C grade prizes so gives every level a chance of winning. also our lowest marker wins more money than any other in the club.
Been single figures for last 20+ years and now find this system makes it impossible to compete in competition and social golf against high hcp players. Going to see this year out having just paid green fees and will then hang up clubs and find something new to do!
Yes it’s outrageous, I don’t blame you
Finally a golf vlogger talking about how bad the new WHS. it is pants and low handicappers are punished.
Could go on and on but truely it is awful.
The system would work with just one small adjustment that is only 1 extra shot on par 3s. Nobody should have 2/3 extra shots on par 3s ridiculous
There comes a time when a golfer tops out improvements are small and other golfers are improving.. the other point is the handicap is a statistical analysis of how often you would score well with the lower handicap being more likely and a higher one less likely. Having said that there nothing to say a high handicap is not going to have a “blinder” and go low.
All this is just people don’t understand the dynamics of this calculation.
Where there is an issue and possibly sand bagging is the course difficulty not being adjusted aggressively enough. Which means we are not seeing cuts that are big enough for good results or additions for poor results.
I am seriously thinking of giving up golf,I am a member of Bawtry golf club of which I play in the Sunday competition each week,I have gradually got slightly better even though I am 57,I started off with a 17 handicap & with the slope & competition rules was playing off 15/16,my new whs handicap is now 14.1 having played a good couple of rounds over the last 3/6 months weather permitting & with now getting the new rules having to play of 13 & have only played under 13 twice in the last 20 rounds,ITS A JOKE,Why aren’t enough people wanting it scraped & who would listen?
As a newcomer with no handicap yet I find the whole thing very confusing. There was me thinking if I had a handicap of 20 I just got 20 shots. What made me really laugh was the England Golf website which says It is designed to welcome more players, to make golf easier to understand Sorry but it’s done anything but for me.
Personally I use Golf Pad's ability estimate handicap. It calculates on best recent scores vs community, tee, and courses. I'll use that because as a casual golfer in an already expensive hobby I really don't want to have to pay even more money to get a handicap.
It costs €20 per week where I am on a nice course, not too expensive I think
@@cdunne1620 Oof that's over 1000 euro for the year. That's a new set of irons every year. The USGA rate doesn't seem too bad then.
Outstanding topic, thanks for doing this video. What kills me is in the match play club championship in the 1st round I'm a 15, I always get to play like a 32, no words can describe how hard that is if the 32 is playing well or forbid a "sand bagger."
Most Sundays at our club there are maybe 4 or 5 lads who better their handicaps in div one, maybe 1 40 plus score while in div 2 you have at least 10 plus lads who shoot scores above 40, you need 44 most weeks to compete. As a 6hc it feels like a waste of time. I recently shot a 73 gross and got 41 points and wouldn't of got in the top 5.We had a 51 pointer last year from a lad playing off 36! We also have most of our bunkers out of play, its a drop out nearest point of relief which again benefits the higher handicap lads who have zero bunker game i know this is not handicap based but like a lot of lads have said the idea of playing club comps has become very unappealing nowadays
People not respecting other golfers, slow play, not repairing ball marks or divots is killing the game. But honesty and integrity is required for any system to work, and people lack those in too many cases. This is why I will never again play in any tournament because one, they always take 5 plus hours, and people cheat. That’s before the handicaps
I am happy that living here in Thailand, I only play for fun now. No competitions.
I think handicaps are a great idea but someone has to come up with a better way of keeping them! To many shall we say cheaters out there! Where I play I have seen many different levels of golfer! And I don't care what level you are. I just enjoy playing BUT I would like a fair playing field! Many golfers I know { pad } their scores. They are good golfers and will shoot in the mid to upper 70's. But, when tournaments come around or any golfing event that uses handicap, we will see their handicap is 15, 16, 17, and then they go out and shoot a 75 and take all the prizes! THIS IS NOT FAIR!
in my own comment, I suggested there should be a penalty for coming in too much better than your handicap.
Agree. That is BS! Saw that in league play all the time. Giving 5-6 shots per 9 and guys shoot 38. I've seen enough golf to know what actual HCP look like. IF we play a causal round we let the group have a say in everyone's goal scores.
People run marathons and know they have no chance of winning. I stink at golf. If I play with a really good golfer I don't want 25 strokes to "compete".
Don’t they have age results though, it’s an incentive to improve surely. I don’t play competition golf anymore but there is usually best nett, gross, stableford, longest drive. If you want to win the stableford when you are a low handicapper you are in the wrong competition.
I think a scratch player is more likely to par a hole where a 18 handicap player is looking for bogey at best. I think it's fair apart from par 3s where it should no shots at all. I play with people in 20+ handicap I'm 17 handicap I can count on one hand how many times they beat me. Just a thought and my opinion
Handicap should play a part in the tee box, not age. If we want golf to grow, IMO, one of the things is to adjust tee boxes to handicap, it would make golfing more enjoyable. I am talking about just the pleasure of golfing, not a. 0 handicap vs a 25 handicap. Competition is by devision, Championship, A, B,C, D players and Seniors.
I really don't have an issue with the current WHS system. I put in 3-4 cards a month and I really think it reflects where my game is at. My club has 2 divisions for comps. Div1 =13 and below. Div2 = 14 and above. Div 1 is often won with 37 or 38 pts. Div 2 is more often won with over 40pts.
That in itself shows the WHS favours less skilled players.
But handicap always has, there's a chance anyone off more than 18 has two shots on a par three (there must be a course somewhere where the strike index one is a par three).
And there's always going to be a chance of a two on a par three for anyone. So that's 3 under net par. 5 points.
Not possible for a scratch golfer to equal.
Our club has 3 Divisions in the comps with 1st to 3rd prizes in each and a 2s comp. It gives everybody something to aim for….however our club has a very high slope rating so we suffer majorly in inter club games. Golf on a short course is not proportionately less difficult than a long course for your average player but the WHS system seems to think it is. I played off 6.2 and lost 4 shots on a white course handicap from our course to theirs!!
Under the old system. If you played a higher handicap player. They got 3/4, of the difference. Now under the new system they get the full difference. Totally impossible.
The truth is Mid-High Handicappers will always have more scope to better their scores on the day no matter what system is used. The WHS does a good job (better than previous systems in two main areas)
1. For new golfer is apply penalties to ensure the new golf is most likely at the lower end of their handicap
2. If a mid to high handicapper has a blinder of a round they receive an additional stokes reduction to their handicap.
But no system can take into account a mid to high handicapper having a blinder. I am off 25 and a couple of months ago shot a 47pts everything just worked in that 1 round and was immediately my handicap reduced by 4 to 21 (2 shots off the handicap plus a 2 shot penalty). But is only takes 1 mid-high handicapper each week to have a blinder and I can see the frustration (but its the same frustration any handicap system)
The only way is to create divsions in your club comps A Grade 18 or something similar.
Maximum handicap 54, what a joke, without comps what's the point, now got to the point where it's a toss up if you need to be a member of a golf club, these changes are just proving what most people have been saying, the system is garbage, and the guy who invented the slope system has told the rulers that they are applying it wrong,
On a meeting with WHS and golf club officials, the WHS rep said UK golfers should just play for the joy of the game and forget about handicaps, apparently we are the only ones who care about handicaps, and are only thinking about our ego's ??
It is the players who play the comps regularly and use the club facilities the most that keep a lot of clubs going, there are too many who turn up, play with their mate or 4ball, and then jump back in their cars without using the club facilities and head off back home,
Anybody would think they were trying to kill the game off, maybe we look for another ruling body because this one has lost the plot.
As a low single digit handicap I know exactly how it feels to think I can't possibly win when competing with mid to high handicap players. It seems two or three. sometimes more, of the mid to high handicap players always shoot well under their handicap. That is ten strokes or more. That means I would have to shoot in the low sixtys to have a chance. It does seem to be way easier for a higher handicap player to shoot well under their handicap then me. Still, I can still shoot under par, so there is no way I would trade my game for theirs.
I play in a roll up group every week and my index is currently 14. I put a card in every week!The roll up is won more often by higher handicap golfers than myself and less often by lower handicap golfers! One observation is that at both ends of the spectrum not enough cards are entered by said golfers. Is the problem the system or the golfers? I'm not well informed enough to make that judgement but not entering enough scores is a problem in my opinion!
I’m a scratch golfer and think the old system was better in the U.S., now playing in Europe it limits my competing because in the States we play more handicapped stroke play whereas in Europe we play more Stableford.
In Europe I have to play like a pro in order to have a fighting chance. It seems silly to me that a mid handicap player or high handicap player playing a bad round of golf can still beat a low handicap player playing a great round of golf?
It leaves a good player with a sense of, why even compete because it would take a miracle to win?
I think good golf should be rewarded, but the current system really rewards bad golf. While it encourages participation, it discourages improving your game.
I’ve always said, good golf is fun golf while bad golf is misery. With the new system, bad golf is a winning strategy which is ridiculous.
My two cents…
Really don’t like the including four ball comps idea. In that format I’ll often take on shots (even the classic of just trying to ram a putt in as you don’t have to worry about the one back) that I’d never do in individual play - that’s part of the fun of it. But now it could impact handicap.
I stopped playing comp 2 years ago for this reason. Small groups, I don't mind. 15 or more of mostly mid to high handicap, I have 0 chance. I'm a consistent 3 handicap never shooting under par.
The whole system is a joke it was flawed when it was introduced and it's not getting any better the only people who are happy with it are the ones who introduced it and let's not forget the cheats if it had been put to a vote before it's introduction it would have been kicked in to touch and would never have been passed.we the golfing public have had this system forced upon us by the powers that be who think they know better.they have spoilt this great game and caused a divide between lower and higher handicaps more so the lower as they now cannot see the point in entering competitions .and have you seen the video explaining the changes to the system how did that idiot get out of the village
It's like putting a guy in a wheelchair 100 yards from the finish in a marathon against world class runners. Why run the race if the best have no chance and the worst win every time. The whole thing is stupid, you should never get more than 70% of your handicap in competition. Even stupider is it is an 'honor' system.
It's a wank system, so many competitions won by scores unobtainable by the better golfers of the membership. Last week, a net 62 won at ours, that's 10 under par... I play off 1. My best ever score is 3 under. I would have had to shoot 9 under to get in a card play off, zero chance of that happening. If I could shoot 9 under I'd turn pro.
This handicap system is not a level playing field, winning scores prove that at each and every club in the UK. The 8 out of 20 would be fine if everybody played off their handicap index and css was brought back to adjust for how hard a course and conditions are on each day. Just use the slope bollox for general scores.
100% correct the handicaps at my club are way to high, and when a person lets say off 12 shoots 73 with par at 70 !! then wins then shoots 85--88 the following 2 weeks you have to say BANDIT!!!
only shot the high score because there was no cup attached to the comp!
Totally agree that the WHS system rewards high handicappers. There is no incentive to get better and lower your handicap now. I agree with inclusivity but handicap maximum of 54(!!!!) is farcical. How can PCC be adjusted on an individual course basis. It can be sunny in London sand blowing a gale in Manchester, how does a computer know????
I played in a friendly comp a few weeks ago. It was a two ball scramble.
I'm sure of the formula the organiser used but is was a percentage of one handicap divided by a percentage of the other handicap. Our combined handicap was 32 and we were given 7 shots. Our playing pair had a combined handicap of 4. They were given 1 shot.
So they lost 3 shots and we lost 25 shots. It didn't matter to us but that was not in our favour.
Terrible system, I didn’t play for 16years after elbow operations, I was told I could play again. Well few months on driving range rejoining my local club new handicap 34 (previously 9.6) instantly I said that’s to many club said it’s how the system works now so first the comps 50-48-48 and still 19.6 so club comps 21 just to many and many people who protect there 24+ for a big club qualifying comp. We need something that is a mix of old and new, known play should be excepted as a record on club matches. Many years ago two medals I played in I had 2shot for com and 2 for known play so 8shots in 10days but that’s when I first started entering competitions at my club when 28 was the max.
I think it should go back to that and as a member you have to enter 4comps a year to evaluate there handicap if members don’t comply cut to 18 for the following season irrespective of individuals situations.
The system has always been flawed against the highly skilled players. They are consistently trying to play well and post scores in a tight range. A 7 handicap can have a run of poor play and watch his index soar by 4-5 prior to a tournament. There’s little chance a +2 is going to beat a 12 handicap who breaks 80, and that’s something that happens every day. The truth has always been that there is a lot of room to improve when you shoot in the mid-eighties, but trimming strokes when you consistently shoot 72-75 is very difficult. Somewhere today a 15 handicap will have a hot putter and better his expected score by 6 strokes. There just isn’t that kind of room for the highly skilled player.
This is the point lots of people miss and why competitions need to be bracketed. Pre COVID I was off 12.4. Coming back I shot up to 18, now back down to 13ish So clearly Ive got a 6 handicap range, not through cheating, just because that's how my game is. A scratch handicapper has a far narrower band. Sure, on a bad day they could shoot 5 over. But a good day is probably 2 under. With me Im as likely to shoot 98 as I am 82! My best differential currently on record is 9. I get 17 shots though so my good day scores mid 40s. A scratch handicapper would have to be close to a course record to score that, hence why we have two divisions. The long and short is that whilst handicaps are supposed to be a leveller, a 30 handicapper and a scratch player are playing two different games and should not be in the same completion bracket
The only thing I think is a problem is that everyone doesn't post every score like I do. Keeps their hdcp too high
I don't play to win. I play because I like the game. I have so so rounds,low 80's and then next time out low 90s. Don't use the handicap system, I just play because at 70 yrs old, I still can.
I think the whs handicap system stinks. At our course we have men playing in the mid week stableford playing off handicap of 38 scoring 40 points plus. Now I appreciate the following week their average of 8 scores inputted their handicap will reduce but a guy last year won countless comps and only reduced from 38 to 30 but he has since gone back up to 34! The pro says he has more money in his pro shop account than the pro himself. I thought golf was suppose to be enjoyable but at our club there are less and less low single figure golfers playing in comps because when they arrive the leading scores at 42 plus for a guy off 5 he would have to shoot under gross par just to compete - not an easy feat. I had a friend who shot one over her current handicap in a comp but because she had a better score coming off that day went up 2 shots- unbelievable. It is making more and more better golfers not play in comps which is not good for the game itself. The best thing they can do is bin it!
I don't play to win, I play to enjoy the game. I can par a few holes but I can also take 7's and above on 3 or 4 holes. I'm probably a 22-24 handicap as I generally hit mid 90, I would be happy in comps to play off 18 and try to consistently hit 1 over each hole.
I’m a single digit player. At my club it takes anything from 43 to 47 points to win. I know for a fact that other single digit players don’t enter competitions because what’s the point!
My best score last year playing off 9 was 42 points, wasn’t enough even for third prize, outrageous. The entry fee for single digit players is now basically a green fee for members because we can’t play casual during a comp on Friday Saturday or Sunday (excluding evenings). My only chance to win anything is if I score a two on a par3 which is some incentive I suppose
The score variance for a high handicap player is too large compared to low handicap players so it is not possible to have both groups compete fairly. StableFord should be done away with and replaced with net prizes (and gross), this would even it up a bit but would still not work.
It’s a serious problem when the better players in a club are deincentivised to compete, you couldn’t design a worse system if you tried. I know good young players who rarely enter club comps nowadays
Just Pre WHS I shot 2 back to back 82’s in the club champs playing off 21, my handicap dropped to 11 in one go. My HCP was based on many hundreds of rounds. I struggled for a good while but mentally, if I could do it once I could do it again. Am now, 3 years later at a 13hcp but have fluctuated more so when I play courses other than my home course… but I want to try to stay at 13 or below. With regards to WHS, I do think that if players can score pars or birdies on their home course, this should be taken into account in their HCP… not just their total score. If they can, then they shouldn’t get more than one shot on that hole…
Play on a team with 1-2 low handy handicaps and other players with high handicaps if you want to win, that's what I see going on. My complaint is there should be a rule of a maximum of 8 strokes per hole, after 8 pick it up and go to the next hole.
The real problem I see with the WHS is not that it is unfair towards better players in club comps, which seems to be what many people in the UK complain about. This could be solved easily by adjusting how club comps are run in the UK (see my reply to drdarren666). The problem is that it is a complete change of golf culture for many Europeans as well. Americans never had the option of playing multiple real tournaments per year (most comps I ran into in the US are scrambles or events, in which you can "buy" mulligans), whereas in the UK and in Europe, at least in central Europe, there were always tons of opportunities to play in club comps every week, if you wanted to, and only those were relevant for the hcp index. So American golf culture is used to "posting every score" with some organisation or other, which is a completely strange concept for club golfers in the UK and in central Europe. Although you could always play "stipulated" rounds ("EDS rounds") outside of tournaments here, nobody ever did. So the hcp index typically developed only by playing comps and very slowly and in most cases only down, until you reached your potential. Then it stayed there or thereabouts for years, until old age, kids or the job kicked in. The volatility of WHIS and how it works is so strange for us.
I for one played my best tournament round in three years last Sunday, and my HI went up by 0.4. The reason being is that atm, my really good rounds from 4 years ago fall out of the system one by one, and in the past 3 years I did not play much due to injuries and work. And when I played in comps, I was far from what I could potentially play to. In our old system my HI would have simply gone up by 0.1 per bad result. In the new system, it is all over the place. Right now, I am close to my best again, but it will take at least eight tournaments until this is properly reflected in my HI again, because right now, the bad results of the past two or three years are all that count. I am serioulsy considering playing a few "registered" rounds this year outside of tournaments to get those bad rounds out of the calculation more quickly. Problem is: when you ask your playing partners around here, whether they are willing to confirm your score, the will look at you as if you are from outer space.
Talk about making things complicated. I do understand including 4 ball after all a very good argument could be made for excluding Stableford scores with only Medal comps to count as they are the only "True" reflection of a score.
Interesting reading the comments. I wonder what is difference is between the U.S. and Great Britain or just maybe between some clubs, either country. I am in the U.S. My club has a monthly tournament and my handicap determines what flight I am in. I NEVER play against someone whose index is double mine. I am always competing against someone in my handicap range. It has always been that way, even way before the current system was implemented. Plus my club also made a change in that one's handicap is base upon your last 6 "tournament" scores. That change was made because it was noticed some had great scores only on tournament days. Some had 4-6 strokes better on tournament day than on non-tournament days. That certain group was winning about a 1/3 of the prize money. After the change? Oh, they still win, but not so much. For a while, they were not even entering any of our tournaments.
I don't think it's killing golf but it's very unpopular with most members at my club. I personally have stopped playing in individual competitions as I can no longer compete. It has incentivised good players to stop practicing and allow their handicaps to drift upwards in order to compete, or just give up like me. I just play in team events now for the fun of it. The WHS and the rules are far too complicated, most players I know don't understand either of them.
The real issue seems to be when you go to other, tougher courses. The ratio of extra shots given to higher handicaps seems excessive.
In principal the idea of adjustmenting handicaps to reflect difficulty of courses makes sense.
In the past I have been on both ends. Home course was tough and everyone else complained when we travelled and scored 40 points. Similarly I got down as low as a 5 on a short home course and struggled when travelling to adult size courses
I am 65 never been much of a Golfer as in low handicap best ever was 18. At 65 I have lacerated disks neck and back 2 crook knees and a damaged hip sciatica and pinched nerves in both arms. Zero to no chance of ever being a low 20 handicapped player. Currently I play around 32..
If this was taken away I along with many players I know would simply stop.
Cut the crapp handicap golf is to equalise the game! Enticing player like myself to play!
Yes but single digit players who have healthy backs now have ZERO incentive to compete in competitions
@cdunne1620 statistical data on the Australian golf link registration says otherwise lower handicap players are more likely to win a competition than higher handicap players.
Simply because their scores are more consistently around or near their handicap par.
So I call bullshit on that claim
I am a handicap secretary at a golf club and a 3 handicap player, it's a joke so easy to cheat, lower handicap makes it impossible to win, we would have reviewed handicap twice a year now every month
Why don't you split the competitions into 2 or 3 divisions based on handicap. Then the lower handicap players are only playing against each other.
@MusicMatters95 they already are but these have also widened and with the new handicap slope rating you could have a 10 handicap recieving 15 shots and a 3 handicap receiving 2 in the same competition
Not interested in competing against anyone but myself, what’s the big deal if I beat someone because my handicap.
I think green fees are a bigger turn off, I am gravitating towards haveing a decent golf sim.
Last medal at home club a 19 hadicap won with a net 62. Low handicaps had no chance.
Alex check your driving range or practice ground and tell us all who is using it.... I will bet you now it won't be the 25.. 35.. Even 40+ players that are trying to get better.... They don't need too.. The new system will look after them......
IT NEEDS SCRAPING.
The tweet you read is fairly accurate. We have two divisions at our club, 0 to 12 and 12 plus. I currently hover just above the 12 mark. If I have a good day, I still can't win as there will be a 30 plus handicapper getting God knows how many shots scoring mid40s PTS. I've actually got more chance of winning if I get into Division 1 as the winning scores tend to be lower. I played a solo open recently and the winning score was 46pts! 46! Ok, it was probably some bandit who'd been pulling scores for a while to get an increase. Under the current system, just play 20 rounds of faked rubbish golf at the end of the season and fill your record with rubbish. Then when the new season starts you can sandbag every comp you enter....
The Stableford System needs a separate handicap system.
People don't like it because they can't sand bag anymore. However I will say this. Where I live none of the courses use hdcp's , they flight tournaments. We believe in not being punished for practicing.
I believe that it does screw the better golfer. They should have handicap tees ( no shots) just yardage reduction) if they want to compete. Just a thought
Handicap is only for reduction of yardage. As you get better you move back.
.. or do away with stableford altogether and go net so the triple and quadruple bogeys count heh heh
The current system is cumbersome, unwieldy, and overly complicated. It should be a straight forward system based upon the average of your last ten cards. If your course is a par 70, and you generally shoot around 84, then you would be a 14 handicapper (based on the average of those last ten cards). What does need to change is introducing a national register of courses with a difficulty rating on a scale of 1 to 5. so that when you play a different course, your handicap would automatically go up or down for the day depending on the course rating.
You've kind of described the current system tbf
@@markjones6557 so why is there this huge anomaly whereby people who were once a 12 handicap, are suddenly now a 6 or 7?
@@thewatchman6074that’s not a problem for competitive play, it’s the 12 handicapper playing off 18. No harm to others in someone holding a “pride” handicap.
LOL, you have just described the current system nearly, just that your 8 best rounds are averaged of your last 20 rather than a average of the last 10 (so the WHS punishes you more than what you are suggesting in your system. (and makes it harder to sandbag your handicap). Your system would make it easier for the Mid-High Handicapper to dominate comps LOL
There is one thing I agree with though. Get rid of the slop rating and just replace it with a Grading of 1-5. At Level 1 you get nothing additional and then increase the handicap a small percentage for each level, so at level 5 everybody get say 10% additional on their handicap. This is the same as how slope works but it too hard for some to undertsand at the moment.
This would mean on a level 5 course
Scratch Golfer get nothing
10 Handicaper moves to 11
20 Handicapper moved to 22
30 Handicapper moves to 33
simples
Doesn't bother me at all. In fact I actually quite like it. Usually on the course I compete against myself, not anyone else. Not bothered too much about winning certain comps and still get to play exciting matchplay matches against golfers around my handicap. I think way too much is being made of it and there's now too many UA-cam videos popping up about this topic.
Weather adjusting the score, wrong for me, my best ever stroke score was in 30mph wind. Weather is the same for everyone !
No system can be completely fair - that's life. You never hear low handicap golfers on a hard course where they usually win say that the course should have a higher difficulty rating to help high handicappers have more chance of winning.
.. high handicap players have much higher variance so with many of them playing someone always hits 45 points. The variance for low handicap players is lower so both groups should never compete, keep it separate, always
6 handicap done 70 odd comps a year for years...NO MORE..given up with if and dont enter anymore...you almost need the understand litigation terminology to sus out what your playing off,and I just want to play GOLF
That is a lot of golf, you must be single 😂
Best 8 from 20 scores, means that last year's later in the season scores, can influence the following season's handicap, when good scores drop out and higher scores come into play. That's reality for many golfers today. England golf did one thing wrong, they failed to ask the membership for their thoughts, after the system was initiated, they just rammed the new system down their throats, and ignored the rumblings from the membership. The other thing that will harm golf, is greed from every sector, manufacturers, & golf clubs, regard golfers, as the golden goose, but eventually the goose will stop laying and golf will return to its origins, a game for the rich only. So all the diversity, and posturing will be wasted.
R&A should listen to golfers. Put there hands up and say, 'We made a mistake,it's going in the Bin.'
Gross prize is minor as only a very small number of players realistically compete for it and it is funded by the players. At a club for years where one guy rarely didn't win gross. That said, I got the best gross and net score once and was awarded the net win and him the gross, as you couldn't win both! (I would have preferred the gross win than the bigger prize).
Single round comps shouldn't have full handicap no where even near 95 percent. Most mid handicappers can play a blinder and go crazy under par. If it was over more rounds it might even it out.
What satisfaction would you get " beating " someone if you had 15 extra shots. It's fine in some formats . Definitely not fair for club champion. That should definitely be the best golfer
I agree with Sam. Making you play against really high hanidcaps because their handicap jumps up massively at some course is nuts. Also paying extra to play gross is friggin nutts! Like WTH? I paly of 5 and there is no way I can compete at some courses net vs players at 20 and up!
Here is what needs to happen. Any comp you play that handicap MUST be accounted for and entered by the course hosting. 4 ball scores can only be added if its better ball if that player has the best ball 12 or more times. Non comp play added by the play should be note but not always accounted for.
You absolutely positively have a chance to beat those players net. However they have almost 0% to beat you gross. Only way they’re beating you as a 5 is if you completely fall apart or hurt yourself and withdraw. Gross should never be paid out in a net tourney unless you just have to declare net or gross. Then if you had to play and a +5/6 registered watch how fast you declare for net.
@@jamesa2101 I have not aplayed a gross tournament since February which I won because the gross tournaments in Barbados are handicap bracketed whilst net are not.
For years I played against very good golfers who took my money every time as I never stood a chance
Suddenly I stand a chance & now they don’t want to play anymore
The cost of playing is killing golf
As a +3.5 HI, I don’t bother with any IPS comps anymore. It doesn’t bother me that much as I play tournaments but one thing I will say is that the monthly medal should not be based on nett, it should at least give the low handicap players one comp a month where they can compete and create more divisions (3 and below; 4 to 9; 10 to 15 and then over that play IPS)
Not enough integrity in the game nowadays. It's all about bragging rights and being seen to win regardless of being labelled a cheat or bandit (nicer term we all seem to lagitiimise). In any other sport you would be penalised, ostracized or outright banned!
So much for striving towards your best self, which I always though was the main point of golf.
I'm off 2 and track all rounds against handicap except the occasional outlier where I shoot in the 80's, by doing this I think the WHS is reletively fair. It is the ease that the system can be gamed that is the issue, something you not going to fix without clubs changing up how their prize pot operates. I do think the 8 in 20 is too limitting, leading to significant fluctuation. I'd prefer a broader range (say 20 in 50).
Although I'm not too bothered about ROI for comps, it would be nice to feel I had a better chance of being in the prizes for an exceptional round of golf. Ultimately, it is viable for low single handicap players to enter gross compitions only, but with limited events at my club the only options would be opens increasing annual expenditure and time travelling. I now play mostly in the evenings as a single, with a weekly fourball and limited comps due to +4hr rounds and zero chance of winning.
Still enjoy the game and self improvement but It's a shame that there is less incentive to play competitively nowadays.
I actually quite like the best 8 of 20, i can see all my stats and really understand how rounds will affect my hc…except…there seems to be so many hidden calcs/impacts that hurt the system. I like an adjustment for playing conditions, but i dont get the course par on top of the slope index (cr-par). I played off 5.7 on a championship course, the par was 72 but the par index was 70.4 so despite the course slope being in the 130’s playing off yellows i had to play off 4! Surely the purpose of the slope index is in itself designed to rate the difficulty, so where did my 1.6 shots go? This makes no sense, again it punishes low hc as i lost 33% of my shots (6 down to 4), but a high handicapper will lose less than 10% of their shots. Really ridiculous imo.
Played in a society match in Spain against a German guy who’s h’cap was 48, I didn’t stand a chance. Every time he got up to the green I looked at him and said ‘…there for none?’ 🤦♂️
Thats ridiculous i know 2 people one claims 36hc the other 32hc they been playing golf 30+ years i stopped going out with them the day eas a laugh but the same 4 or 5 old giys alway won with ridiculous handicaps we where just there to up the pot people scoreing there best ever rounds and still didnt even place club competitions should only give highhandy cappers a couple shots that it if they wsnt to claim high 30 or 40+ they do that on there own round and cheat themselves not everyone playing in a comp
I agree the system is flawed and is extremely frustrating for single digit handicappers. I play in a golf league as a 0-1 handicap, every player I match I am giving strokes to. We changed the rules of our league so that players like myself will never give more than one stroke per hole. However, even giving a stroke on a short hole, if a 9 handicap player scratched out a par, I have to make birdie just to half the hole. Years ago I would have to give 2 strokes on a hole which made it impossible.
The “old” CONGU system worked very well and every player bought into it. The idea of the new WHS sounded good in theory but it doesn’t really work fairly in practice. It’s too complicated and the adjustments turn the average golfer off. At our club we analysed who (handicap wise) won our board comps, pre and post WHS. It revealed that previously, there was a strong bias towards the lower (
The WHS is too involved in Operation -All they needed to do with the Old System was to increase the number shots when adjusting downward on your Handicap (Leave Category One's mostly alone? Maybe Half a Shot, but then 2 shots instead 1 or 3 shots instead 2 for Higher Categories). Possibly use the Old style adjustments for Upward Increases ( I think it was a maximum of 3 shots UP and Handicap Reviews Half yearly). Who ever thought Men Playing off 36 handicap was a good idea? I was told Back in the Day when I first started playing (Yes. long time ago) you were expected to play to your Handicap 3 times a year and Under your Handicap was something to celebrate. That was to stop Pot Hunters. My Club has a Rule you cannot Win until you have already played 3 times in that Competition. WHS is just big a Mess which is why they are still introducing corrections because it simply doesn't work fairly for all . Our Friday Morning Swindle now requires 46 to 48 Points to be sure of collecting - I quote The 7th Law of Management - if takes a complicated calculation to arrive at the answer then it is guaranteed to be unworkable!