It's kinda complicated but this is how it works: Firstly the formula to calculate your handicap for an 18 hole round: (Score-CR)*(113/SR) The handicap index is calculated like this: 1-3 rounds: The best one -2 4 rounds: The best one -1 5 rounds: The best one 6 rounds: Average of the best two -1 7-8: Average of the best two 9-11: Average of the best three 12-14: Average of the best four 15-16: Average of the best five 17-18: Average of the best six 19: Average of the best seven 20: Average of the best eight What happened to you, is that you had very few rounds registered, so it took your best result, which was 3.4 and deducted 2, so you're 1.4hcp now. At around 15 rounds, your handicap should normalize around what is used to be like. What I'm confused about, is why they didn't just use your previous 20 rounds to calculate your current handicap instead. If they're registered, your golf governing body should have access to them.
In my opinion the WHS is vast improvement on the old system as it addresses three key problems. Firstly, it makes it easier to put cards in at any time, not just club comps, so your handicap is much more current. Secondly, in the old system you could only go up 0.1 for each bad round. If you were genuinely playing badly, for example, if you developed the yips as I did, it could take 4 years to get to a representative handicap. Thirdly it levels the standard across courses. If you invited players to your course who were members at a ‘hard’ course their handicap didn’t represent their standard on your course. 1 or 2 shots is a huge difference in golf. And finally I think the App is great. You can see how ‘current’ someone’s handicap is and this deters the ‘sandbaggers’. Some of our local clubs won’t let you enter competitions unless you have 6-7 cards in the calendar year. There is no excuse not to do that now. Regarding your actual handicap, this is just a number and can’t be compared to the old system. After slope and course ratings are applied you may well get more shots and if you can’t play to it then you will go up when you put more cards in. Everyone’s handicap will level to their standard according to the system once you have cards in. I know some people find it hard to understand how it works. I have heard people say ‘I just had a bad round and my handicap went down’. This can be easily explained but if you find it too difficult then just play, enter your score in the app and accept the results. If you do that then your handicap will reflect your ability
Andy it does work with 20 cards in as everyone’s saying. The biggest moaners are the comp handicap manipulators who stick 20 cards in every 7 years..WHS encourages everyone to put cards in EVERY round, therefore showing a more accurate reflection of your hsndicsp. Our clubs medal last Sunday had 5 out of the top 6 places with handicaps of 5 or under.
As a 13 handicapper I think it works great for me. It’s the average of your 8 best rounds from your last 20. So it’s current and reflects your good days. You are penalised until you get the 20 rounds in (maybe 18 in uk). I’ve heard it’s not so clever for low handicappers and I agree the max handicaps now are ridiculous. But your handicap now reflects the difficulty of the course you play and adjusts to the level of difficulty. I calculate my wife’s handicap, 23, and I’d say it’s totally accurate. That’s from 50 rounds in a year or so.
Andy, the WHS is pretty close to the system we’ve been playing in Scandinavia for donkey’s years. Just get your 20 cards in and then your index will be based on the best eight of the 20 most recent rounds on a rolling basis. Basing criticism on unusual circumstances like your own (coupled with those 12 hole comps) is rather unfair.
Tony, your explanation is only partially true and Andys criticism is not only fair but factually correct. The latest version of WHS specifically aimed to include rounds of less than 18H to create a more inclusive "Family of Golf", very laudable. It is dramatically failing because for rounds of less than 18H an algorithm creates "Expected Scores" based upon the individual players HI and as such is flawed. Both The R&A and USPGA specifically state that "SD is NOT individual" and yet in order to calculate the SD for a round "Expected Scores" is based upon the individual players HI.
This system only works in the short-term if are lucky enough to be able to play plenty of golf every season without real life getting in the way (work/family time). If you're a time-poor low-handicapped golfer its crap imho.
@@DexxBlue Thanks for the comment. I do not maintain that the WHS is perfect but the basic principles are sound. Handicap adjustments in the old system played in Scandinavia were made on the basis of the latest card submitted, with adjustments varying between 0.1 and full strokes up or down depending on the player's category. Now of course the index is based on the best eight from 20 rounds which can cause surprises e.g. as particularly good rounds eventually drop away. But course ratings and the opportunity for golfers of different abilities to play from the same tee are for me the key benefits.
@@markrushforth6212 Thanks for the comment. I assume by 'crap' you mean for competition purposes. If you're a time-poor low-handicap golfer you're likely to suffer whatever the system. All handicap systems aim essentially at creating a level playing field that allows golfers to compete fairly with each other. If you're a high handicap and also fast improving golfer then naturally the chances are you'll do well in competitions. C'est la vie.
I find it works well. As others have said, you just need to put more cards in and it will settle down. For anyone wondering this is how it works in the short term until you put 20 cards in. 3 scores: lowest score -2 4 scores: lowest score -1 5 scores: lowest score 6 scores: average of lowest 2 scores -1 7 or 8 scores: average of lowest 2 scores 9-11 scores: average of lowest 3 scores 12-14 scores: average of lowest 4 scores 15-16 scores: average of lowest 5 scores 17-18 scores: average of lowest 6 scores 19 scores: average of lowest 7 scores 20 scores: average of lowest 8 scores
I would just tell golfers to read the rules of handicapping , it is easy to understand. The problem is they cannot be bothered and then complain about it. As for the maximum handicap I do not see a problem with that either , clubs can limit the handicap range in a competition and anyone above that maximum can enter but play off whatever that figure is , alternatively have different bands for example 1 to 14 , 15 to 28 and 28+.
The above table explains why there can be quite significant swings in a persons handicap as they build up to the full 20 scores on their database. Something similar happened to a friend of mine where his HI swung between 7 and 13 until it began to level out as he submitted more scores. This is probably what has happened to Andy ?
The system we had if i remember broadly was , they kick anything out worse than a double and then it does settle down as it is essentially the best 8 out of your last rolling 20 rounds, so you have lost 7 shots in 3 rounds which has you scratching your head, i think after 20 rounds it'll make more sense
Andy - i feel for you, but i suspect it is because you do not have enough cards in the system. It really does work when you have 20 cards in. It does apply a strange reduction with so few cards - I like the system as i can post a number in the 70s and a predicable cut follows
Well said..... You need to put your cards in... The problem is not everyone uses the system the same..... It was designed for players to put most cards in including general play at different courses. Some people do and some people don't. Therefore, it's an unrealistic system at times.
Yep. It’s designed so you post all rounds but some people protect their handicaps so they can say they’re single figures or whatever and others post their worst. Nothing new there I guess. The system deliberately penalises you when you haven’t posted the full 20 rounds tii oh trg and counter act banditry. The issue is the high handicaps now allowed.
The math is very simple. Once you get 20 scorecards in it’s the average of your lowest 8 differential. A differential is calculated (score - course rating) * 113/ slope rating Your course handicap is (handicap index * slope rating /113) + (course rating - par). There is no mystery. Your app should tell your index, your course handicap for the course/tee you are playing as well as the scores used to calculate your index. It’s pretty close to the system the rest of the world used ( hence World Handicap System)
Andy I am going to tell you a story of something that happened to me back in 2016 or 2017 which may assist in helping explain the origin of the WHS system and why it was applied Worldwide including the UK. So grab yourself a coffee and read on. I was in Belek playing holiday golf and a member of our party was an Irishman who had lived in New York for over 15 years. On the first day of competition we all declared our handicaps apart from said Irishman who asked what the slope of the course was. We all looked at him as if he was stupid. Following the round over a beer or two he tried to explain the system in the US which was basically the WHS system and he said its coming to the UK in the near future. We all scoffed a little saying it would not work. He also pointed out that the system was used so golfers could vary their handicap when playing different courses around the world so they could use their handicap as a variable tool to play golf . He also added that most club golfers in the US don't actually play weekly in house competitions but they favour a more relaxed social aspect playing their "buddies" his words, for cash bets, that said they would return these social cards for every game played in order to maintain what he referred to as a true handicap (presumably so the losers could win their money back next time) . So in effect they don't play competitive golf as we do in the UK in the form of weekly medals, stablefords and majors. So therefore their system is not required the same way ours is (meaning our old system) to determine adjustments in playing handicap i.e CSS etc. He argued that they needed the slope system to play around the world and enjoy casual rounds with his buddies. So basically we in the UK were forced to adopt the WHS system because of the USA who have been pushing for it for many years which seems both unfair and pointless. Most golfers in the UK are members of private golf clubs and apart from open events at other venues would play the majority of their competitions at their home course where the par for the course tends to be the same year on year. Therefore UK golfers would not require a slope system in the same way as golfers in the US. In a nutshell this WHS has been forced upon on us with no prior consultation or trail by the administrators of golf and lets be honest what do they care what golfers think we only keep the game going so why would you ask the weekend warrior. WHS is to golf what VAR is to football, totally pointless and will have serious consequences in terms of attitudes towards the game. It remains to be seen if VAR will be scrapped with the same fate facing WHS in about 5 years. The End. (hope your still awake).
Funny how so many people, including yourself, refer to their index as their handicap. They’re two different things. Your index is just a number used to calculate your handicap and that handicap will change depending on the course difficulty. 😊
Yes your right another silly little word game, does what you call it make a difference? My index at Holywell is 1.3 and I play off the white and yellows off 1, is that better?
Oh I don’t call it index or handicap, I have some special names for it😡😂 I get the reason for the change, I just wish it was more transparent in its calculations and not just sticking a few numbers in and having to accept the number it spits out😢
I’m with Andy on this, if I’m asked my handicap I refer to my index as that’s what comes with me when I play another course, I don’t refer to my course handicap as they may not have heard of my course it’s common ground to use your index
I think that your 12 hole gross score is then extrapolated to an 18 hole score by assuming you play the remaining holes to your current 5.8 handicap. This gives you a 3 over par 72 This is translated into a differential as follows (72-68.6)*117/113 (see course rating tables for Holywell This gives a differential of 3.3 Because you only have 3 cards in, your handicap is based on your best single score less two shots Hence your handicap after 3 rounds is 1.3 It will become more accurate as you get closer to having 20 rounds in WHS
As mentioned in a lot of comments, the handicap bounces all over the place until there are 20 rounds in the system, so my conclusion is that when Andy transferred his handicap to a new club, his history didn’t come across with that transfer. The important concept to grasp with the new system is that your handicap is not reflective of your “actual” ability, but your “potential” ability, which is two very different scenarios.
It's rubbish... Not fit for purpose, winning scores have become a joke. Your handicap should be a reflection of your ability, not your form. It wouldn't be too bad if you played off your handicap index and they brought CSS back to judge the level of difficulty of how a course plays. Last year I shot level par 72, my best round of the season to that point... my reward, handicap increase because a -2 score dropped out of the 20.
@MicksPlace64 it doesn't work pal, it's a crap system that has led to unobtainable scores winning, sand bagging, its such an easy system to fudge your handicap if you are that way inclined. It's good for society or country club members who don't play official competition golf... but for a club that has 2 comps a week with fields over 100 it's pants. Also if your 8 from 20 average say 1.0 over par, your playing index will be 1, if your average is around 5 over par, your playing index will be around 7, if its 12 around 16, 16 around 20 etc... how if your average is 5, 12, or 16 do you get extra shots on your home course where all 8 of those scores were played? It's a handicap system that isn't a level playing and the worse you are at the game the more it benefits you
@@Erictheking66 Everyone of my 20 are off the tips playing in comps, mostly medals. so for me its a fair reflection of my form.. If a good one drops off so be it. I don't play with or know of anyone who would even want to 'fudge' a HC. Its a tired old excuse by snobby low handicappers.
When I transferred across to WHS, with years of historic data, I started at 6.9 [8 under CONGU]. Last April I started at 7.5, by October I was up to 12.2, as of last week I was back down to 9. Previously I fought like hell to protect my single figure handicap, now I’d say I was ambivalent. I know to look for my worse counting score and if I beat it I’ll come down but I’ve no idea by how many …… the previous idea of finishing in the bucket for your category gave you a bit of latitude so you could be one, two or three over par but your handicap wouldn’t change based on the SSS for the comp. Now general rounds are encouraged to be recorded which I think are measured using 100% of your playing handicap whereas actual comps come in at 95% or 90% ….. can’t say I’m greatly impressed.
You are spot on when you mention the 20 cards etc. This is key. Until then your handicaps will be extremely varied. Your own level par experience (12 holes) shows just how the system works to give you a hcp based on current form. Not forgetting the added factors of slope and course ratings, which are another important part of making this system fairer.
Complete disclosure, I'm a high handicapper, and will stay that way until I make time to play regularly. Also, I am the world's worst mathematician. I used to wonder how the hell I got the handicap I did, but decided to study how it works and why it is set up the way it is. I now enjoy the challenge of working out course ratings etc and setting goals for my handicap. Knowledge of how it works has made it interesting. Thumbs up from me.
Remember, your index is a measure of your poential, not your average, and your 3rd round indicates you have the potential to play to par (scratch). Once you have the requisite number of rounds (20) for the system to fully function, it works fine. My one gripe is that if you play often, the 20 rounds reflect just 6 - 10 weeks. Then, rounds drop off that list very quickly and that hurts, especially if you had 3 good ones in a week all of which are being used in your handicap, and they all drop off the bottom in a single week.
I dont even keep track of a handicap. I score what I score and that is my philosophy about it. I wish everyone was just HONEST and there was a way to play competitively at your skill level without a handicap. People manipulate their scores with it, which defeats the whole purpose in the first place. Don't really see a solution other than qualifiers, but at my level that is extremely tedious. (I regularly score 80-89)
I posted this comment on your last video - I am no expert! But it all depends on the course rating and slope rating. As an example my home course is par 70 but the course rating off the blue tees is 72.4 and the slope rating is 124. I play off 7.8 which means that my course handicap is 11 ie if I score 81 I have played to my handicap. By contrast off the white tees the par is again 70 but the course rating is 69.5 and the slope is 118, which makes my course handicap 8 ie I need to score 78 to play to handicap. It gets more complex because your handicap index is made up of the best 8 of your last 20 recorded scores. So once you have 20 scores, next time you record a score the last one drops off and the new one comes in and a new average is calculated. So my 7.8 means that the average of my best scores from the last 20 is 7.8. If you only have 3 scores they use your lowest score and deduct 2.0 to get your index. It then gradually adjusts until you have 20 scores and the average of the lowest 8 is used. The R&A website has all the info. Hope this is useful - and fingers crossed I'm correct!
Spot on mate, exactly how it works. Andy will go back up once he posts more rounds, unfortunate that he may feel the pain in the short term and get nowhere near the winners circle on those comps. It will even itself out though. Mine is 9 and I always say I’m the worst single figure player at my club.
It's a very poor system and isn't reflecting peoples' playing skills well at all. As for course slope ratings - there is far more to the difficulty of courses than number of bunkers/trees/length etc.
Yup - spot on. Keep putting the cards in Andy and when you get to best 8/20 you’ll have found your spot. Keep playing to par and it will be 1! It is crazy complex but I like the idea of having an index that gets adjusted to the course/tees you are playing from. Keep us up to date on the journey!
Well explained. My mate, who usually shoots between 85-95 was a 10 index after his first three rounds. Now that he’s submitted over 20, he’s a 16 index. It works perfectly well. Most people seem to just not like change, but it doesn’t make sense that you’d get the same shots on every course you play. Some are much harder.
@@michaelphillips5931 Yes. I made the point that you will not get the same shots at Bethpage Black and your local "pay and play." Why would anyone with an 8 handicap allowance at Bethpage expect to get 8 shots at a pay & play?
Once you have a good number of scores in the bank then it settles down nicely. My handicap will most likely change after my next qualifying round, as I'm knocking an 81 off that is currently one of best 8 scores, but whatever I shoot in that next round, my handicap will only change by a few decimal points either way, unless I shoot the lights out!
Hello Andy. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think we all should not pay to much attention to this matter. We should enjoy time and the game itself. In some countries the handycap really matters and in others it doesn’t. I know golfer who really hunt after a low handycap. Of course we all would not mind to be below 10 but really this is just a number. I like to improve my game and which number is related to this doesn’t matter much to me. 😊😊😊
It's a good attitude you have. For many it matters though, as they like to compete in club competitions and they like to feel their handicaps is competitive and reflects their ability well. Right now, at my club, it is clear this isn't happening.
Palmer said: you’re not good enough to get upset. Let’s accept that sentiment and accept we need a handicap system to compete on even footing, cuz we’re just not good enough to compete straight up off par. Instead, enjoy the game. A par is still a par and lovely whenever we get them. A birdie is still hard to come by. Bogies we need to accept and represent par for most of us and double bogies must be avoided. If anyone thinks that an 18 handicapper can beat a scratch because of a handicap system, Oh well. The score is the score whatever it is. Hi
I'm sure it will even out once you have 20 scores in , a new member last year was bouncing around with changes of 4 - 5 shots everytime he put a card in untill his 20 rounds were in the his handicap stabilised.
It’s because in the new system it takes into account course rating less par. That means each tee has a difficulty rating based on length. This is logical because a course off the front tees is easier than a course off the back tees, however the par for the course always remains the same I.e 72. So, what your handicap reflects Andy is that you’re playing off tees that are too easy for your ability, or to put it another way your ability off those tees suggests you can shoot close to or level par. The solution is to play off the back tees where you’re likely to then shoot closer to your previous handicap.
You know what Andy -this is exactly why I just play casual golf-I enjoy the feeling of hitting good shots, and I enjoy the company,-What I don't worry about is the stress of handicaps, or winning or any of that bull.... Golf is about escaping the pressures of life-so why put pressure on yourself when you are out walking the fairways🤷🤷
You haven't posted your score for the last two years. So, your old handicap has no bearing on your current one. The talk of subtraction is simply non-sensical. Your current 1-handicap is simply the average of your last 3 score card differentials, the fewest number possible for handicap calculation. You shot pretty low scores in your last three 12-hole outing capping it off with a gross even par, so low single would sound about right. Remember, scores older than 2 years aren't considered in a handicap calculation. This has always been the case. The only dodgy part of the new handicap system is the so-called course condition adjustment. Near as I can tell this looks at how people playing your course at the same time perform in relation to their baseline. The premise is that in a tough condition, windy, rain, etc., players would score worse than their baseline. So, if on the day everyone else was doing poorly and you shot an even par, your differential would be even better. So, on the last round, your effective differential could very well be positive.
Andy, have a chat with Match & Handicap Chairman at the Golf Club, he will be able to explain the workings of the system and more specifically what’s happening in your case. It’s all about averages and for me that’s what makes it a more equitable system.
It used to be quite an achievement to get your handicap down.... I've practiced hard and played really well to get down to single figures ( which we all strive for) ,at least you knew that you were playing well. Now you're going up and down like a yo yo without playing better 😵💫😵💫😵💫.. I got myself down to a proper 3.2 and don't play comps anymore because I don't want to get false information given to me because of an untrue handicap system....it wasn't broken so why oh why mess with it,we all want to be better but want to earn our single or scratch handicap, I really wanted to get to scratch but the proper way 🌟🎊🤩🥳
Spot on , I never enter comps and my friends and I organise our own handicaps using the real system, I see so called cat1 players who would never get to that level before , but as usual they want make it easier for everyone, if you can’t play to 28 then find another game
So you rely on scores you were getting many years ago to hold onto a low HC. If you can't play to around that HC 8 times over a rolling 20 rounds you are not that player anymore 🤷
I look forward to you realising its a better system than the old once you’ve built up 20+ rounds. The last system was too easily manipulated by the few who like a bit of crystal. You’re simply suffering because as a single figure experienced golfer having shot 2 good rounds and 1 exceptional round. The new system has no other information as your previous rounds aren’t logged. As you progress through the rounds you’ll arrive at your current level of golf probably mid to high single figures and movements going forward will be very slight. 👍
It is a strange system when you first enter Into , I had spent 3 years getting my handicap down as low as I could and had finally got to single figure, new system came in and due to an issue with the golf club my scores were lost and I had to re-enter my cards , I had been playing really well and the 3 cards I had to enter were 1 over , 2 over and a sub par round of 1 under . To say I was surprised when I was given a handicap of +1.3 . I have spent the last 12 months getting my handicap back to where I believe it should be around 8. It has taken a lot of enjoyment out of the game for me
Andy I think this system has been introduced to make golf more inclusive, in that you can gain a handicap without being a member of a club. The main aim is to extend the game further. However, I like you believe it has had a negative effect. This is especially the case for lower handicap golfers. Also the system is confusing. You have your WHS then the course handicap and then for some it’s 95% of that in comps or not when playing friendlies. Then you have the whole issue of people putting in general play cards in order to manipulate their handicap. In the old days this practice was banned for the old cat 1 golfers. This is having the result of genuine golfers being balloted out of comps …………as you said the old system wasn’t broke so why fix it?
Playing in the USA, we’re not having to adjust all that much to the new handicaps system. The system seems to be fair in approximating a golfers potential for any round. Averaging the top 8 score differentials out of the most recent 20 scores posted seems to be a good representation of ability and form. Of course, all scores should be posted. Not a careful selection of rounds. Using this system our group seems to compete evenly across a range of abilities. Mid handicapper of 14-15
If memory serves, prior to WHS I played a comp scoring gross Par & 68 net. I was beaten by 2 guys who played off 13 & 12 I.e. net 67…a ‘known’ pair of sandbaggers (who ‘apparently’ manipulated their handicaps in the winter to win in the summer), it was far more common to do this, so I’ve been told by several friends & members… With WHS sandbagging is far harder to achieve; for that we should all be grateful…
8 scores out of 20 points towards it being far more difficult to raise your handicap when you want to. Playing enough ‘sandbagging’ rounds during winter to take out your 8 lowest rounds would be extremely hard. But hey if cheating is important to someone playing golf, perhaps they’re in the wrong game⚽️; you would hope so⛳️
I like the idea of it adapting your handicap to the toughness of the course as you can be single figures on an easy open course but then double on a tough tight course as well as it keeping up with your level of play at the time however they definitely need to sort the algorithm out on how it assesses the handicap and keep closer eyes on manipulation but key thing is clubs need to either have a max handicap for comps or split the comps into categories to prevent the bandits from ruining it for all
I think the system works well. You really need to have 20 plus cards for it to settle down. It will then more reasonably assess your current handicap than the old method. I have genuinely seen a number of fellow golfers' handicaps change (mostly upwards) to reflect their true ability. The reason your handicap is anomalous is you've only entered 3 cards, all of which were good or very good. Over time you will no doubt have a few off days and your handicap will settle at its true number. I also like the fact that you have to post a certain number of cards in a given year - previously far too many players avoided handing in cards, only choosing to do so when conditions were favourable.
Hi Andy I have had a nightmare with my handicap after returning to golf after my son was born. I unfortunately had one of my best rounds ever on my 3rd round of the new system where I played to 6 gross then looked at my handicap the next day and it had dropped from 15.9 down to 4.1 . I did some research and up until to get 20 scores in it’s a little all over the place so I keep going hoping like you said in the video that it will sort it’s self out after 20 scores, by my 20th round my handicap had returned to 14.4 which I thought was fair . After my 20th round which I had a score difference of 16.7 ( didn’t play to my handicap) my handicap was cut to 9.1 after looking into it I found out that once I had my 20 scores in your handicap becomes official and in my case a hard cap comes into play which doesn’t allow your handicap too increase by more than 5 shots in a calendar year. Currently my average score difference is 19.7 over the best 8 scores in my last 20 rounds but my handicap hasn’t moved from 14.1 in over 20 rounds. It has had a very negative affect on my golf which has been noticed by my playing partners. I’ve spoken to my club officials who are trying to help but our club is a very small club which is ran by volunteers so I can’t expect to much so I tried contacting the local whs representative who just sent me back to my club officials. The whole thing is very disappointing especially when we here so much about growing the game and so forth. So sorry for the long winded comment but it might get worse for you before it gets better for you . I am really happy to are talking about this on your channel and hopefully get it out into the open for more golfers . Keep doing what your doing Andy your content and quality of your videos are great . To me it’s what golf is all about
Seems UK is a bit confused and as a scandinavian I am confiused why you are confused. I like WHS, I wrote a long one on your last video. But when we switched in 2020, the rounds all the way back to 2017 would be counted to your best 8 out of the last 20 rounds. Is that not done in the UK, because in my mind you both play enough that you have a good backlog of rounds which would count and give you a good stable avererage. It will probably be slighly lower than the old system due to being your better 8 rounds average which count to the HCP, so how you play on a good day, not taking in those shite days in the average.
Andy me and a friend had the same problem as yourself so we went on a campaign.... Where ever we played we put in a card... It took us a month to build a history but it did work... At the moment you have only 3 so when it works out your mean it is not reflecting properly but when you have your base number of rounds you should find it sorts itself out.... Get more cards in as fast as possible..... Regards
I think someone mentioned potential in another comment which i believe the old system was based on. Everyone has the potential and a bit of good fortune, to post a really low score but more than likely not be able to play like it week in week out! I shot a 78 off a 14 handicap last year and came in with 46 points! not got anywhere near it since. If you maintain the 20 minimum scores required this new system will reflect your current playing ability.
The system is fine, it works and is very simple to understand. Just play golf, enter your scores and let the system do it's work. Anyway, the idea is to play well and lower your handicap, not to be a bandit and keep ones handicap artificially high. Also, stop entering 12 hole results, as the WHS only calculates on 9 hole and 18 hole scores. If you keep entering 12 hole scores, you really can't expect the system to work correctly.
@@TheAverageGolfer You'll have to speak to your club secretary Andy and have the scores rescinded as incorrect. You will have very little success if you try dealing with England Golf directly. I can only suspect that England Golf/WHS is taking your 12 holes and allocating them to 18 hole scores and this may be why your handicap is shooting down.
Good video Andy. There's a lot of support for the WHS in the comments. It would be interesting to know if there's much support for it from low hcp golfers. The pro in your video suggested the lowest golfers don't want to enter club competitions now where you've got to shoot 43 to 45 points every comp. in order to have a chance. At our club we've set up a single hcp weekly group, run it as a qualifying competition and playing to your hcp or one or two shots better means you'll likely win. No more moaning about bandits and 45 pts!
I understand it, and it works well for me. The problem is and always was the people who purposely have those bad rounds to keep their HC high and then shoot the lights out for the bigger comps.
For me, the WHS has been very accurate so far. It literally reflects your best score, and then the average of your best scores, as you submit more cards. So if you shot par then that's your handicap. It'll be more realistic once you submit more cards. I think the issue is more to do with low handicappers feeling they can't win anymore because someone else has 30 shots and it's more likely for them to have a good round and shot 10 under net than for a 5 handicapper to be 10 under.
Andy I know your pain I personally entered a comp off the whites and being a senior off 28 I received 32 handicap for the comp and played an absolute blinder. After entering the card I got a new handicap of 20 and finished second the winner of the comp was off the yellows beat me by a shot but was only deducted 4 strokes. I think the old system was better as I'm back up to a 26 handicap after my one comp wonder where I did shoot 90 to be fair.
I had a disaster of a round, unwell, rain and cold. Individual comp. So no one relying on me. Only turned up because I don’t like being thought of badly. Posted a score of six Stableford points. Handicap stayed the same. Played a blinder, forty eight points, handicap went up. Mystery. Incidentally, during Covid it changed three times without me playing a single round.
It makes sense that a bad round didn’t affect your handicap. Since it wouldn’t be one of the best 8 of your last 20 rounds, the only way for it to change is if one of your previous best 8 fell off. Your handicap going up after posting a good score would be because a better one fell out of your most recent 20. As for it changing without playing, I have no clue. Remember too, if you play at multiple courses or different tees at the same course, it’s your best 8 differentials it uses, not your best scores.
The basic message that I can can glean from the comments posted (and from the county officials when my handicap was 'messed up' and I questioned it) are just keep putting in the scores and eventually your handicap will be a true reflection of your golf potential? That may be 20 scores +, in the meantime just keep playing, paying, come off the course confused, be non competitive and probably not enjoy the game.
The system works. So much better than the old one. We have been using this new system for three years in Sweden. So be patient and play on😂 It’s working beatifully.
My handicap is 14 my club is a par 70.ive hit 14 over par once and most of my rounds have been in the 90s.i keep looking to see if my handicap will jump up but never does and it's now been about 40 rounds
He moved to a much harder course and that is why his GA handicap went down despite him not hitting par. The round that he shot par, that was classed as an exceptional round (less than 7 under GA hcp) and regraded his past scores, leading to the 1.3 GA hcp.
It does not help when people use acronyms that some might not understand. I've used something like the WHS for more than 20 years playing in France - it really is simple and easy to use. But what does a GA hcp mean. The terms used in the WHS include slope, par, course handicap and playing handicap, and some term like or signifying standard scratch score. Where does GA fit in?
@@ianburton9223 sorry I was up late with the baby when I wrote that...GA HCP is Golf Australia handicap i.e. the standardised WHS index taking into account slope and scratch rating of the courses played. I agree, the WHS is easy and pretty simple to use.
Hey Andy, the system is not prefect in the UK, the issue is not enough cards are submitted. In the past members would submit 8-15 cards a year for the average member. The new system is used in other countries where each round played will be submitted so giving golfers a "true" reflection of their playing ability. The issue in the UK is we are still not submitting cards everytime we play until that changes the system will struggle. My issue is the new slope/course ratings help the mid to higher handicappers but awarding more shots for their playing handicap. WHS is not that difficult to understand once you have all 20 cards in. Keep plugging away
As people who seem to have a grasp of the system point out you won’t get an accurate handicap until you get twenty cards in. Once you get to twenty it will balance out but you will need to play regularly and keep entering cards. Bear in mind your index will eventually reflect your better scores.
I always thought that the old system did not cater for playing easier or more difficult courses than your home club. I played in France and got more shots at a tough course under their system at the time , and it seems logical. I get more shots off our whites compared to yellows - logical. What I don't like is the ease of change. Realistically, only the new to the game change quickly if they work at it. The idea is to encourage people into the game by having high handicaps but that only creates slower play and doesn't encourage better play.
It works OK once you get past the 20 rounds, we've been playing it since the beginning of 2020, as we already had a similar system prior we had the 20 rounds ready for calculation, and my handicap moved about 0.5. As has been mentioned it is a 'potential' not your 'real' handicap once you have your 20 rounds. Other things that will effect the handicap is the 'Çourse Difficulty' and the tee you play on the course, but until you get the 20 rounds it sounds like a mess for players.
I encounter quite the contrary issue. As a player with a disability, my usual rounds are rather disappointing (handicaps ranging from 33 to 40). However, on my better days, my performance sees a significant uptick. Occasionally, perhaps one or two times a season, I might play at a handicap of 7 to 10. This results in an average handicap calculation of around 25, given the infrequency and disparity of my good rounds. Previously, the system pegged my handicap consistently between 10 and 12, which felt equitable, especially during tournaments when I chanced upon a good day. Now, the scenario has turned rather preposterous. It's possible for me to skew a competition with rather extraordinary results if a good day aligns with the event. To be candid, I find this new arrangement quite unsatisfactory. Naturally, I am eager to win, but I believe victory should reflect a fair assessment of my peak performances, not be skewed by an average of my last 20 rounds, which invariably fails to represent my best efforts.
There are pluses and minuses… The plus is the slope rating system allows your handicap to be more relevant at away courses , and you can submit scores from your away rounds. This I suspect was a US led initiative as many US golfers want to have competitive handicaps when they play tough UK courses … But as it’s an average system, the round you have just submitted wont necessarily immediately reflect your handicap. So my 8th worst card is kicked out by 33 points and I get cut because I just replaced a 23 points . The old system was immediate you went up .1 or if you hit 36 points you dropped .8. What the new system does ( not a big fan ) is means high handicappers have a tougher time . There terrible round doesn’t just move .1 but can move much more. Equally 2 or 3 good rounds in a row and you plummet quickly. That’s why it’s confusing because it’s not directly related to the round you just entered. I suspect after another 10 rounds you will probably be back to a handicap you can live with . PS non 18 hole submissions are more likely to reduce your handicap. They extrapolate what you would have shot over 18 , when of course we know our last 4/5 holes suffer with tiredness etc.
Totally agree, I’m newish to golf and new to the handicap system and so far put in 9 cards averaging 88 per round. My whs scores says 12.2 but surely that’s not correct? All rounds played on par 71 bar 1 round (par 72) so shouldn’t I be around a 17 handicap ??
Andy your case is somewhat special: someone who hasnt played comp golf in a while and wasnt a member. Now you start with 8.something with no previous scores in. And the first rounds you put in are very descent - one of which a level par round. Maybe the next comp round youll play is under Par? Then youll be a scratch player ;-) Put in at least 10-12 rounds and we speak again ;-) But yeah the old system where you played i.e. 3 under your hc and then were able to compute your new Handicap was nice but the new Handicap system is good for the high handicapers or beginners imho Kepp going!
I do not live in the UK, and here we have a national Interclub competition in April in 4 categories of handicap. There was a big scandal this year with one club receiving quasi disqualifications as the national federation believed that certain players had done too many EDSs.to falsely inflate handicaps. It then led the federation to over react and investigate all the clubs and disqualify more players.. I know of one suspicious case, but beyond that it is evident that EDSs are central to the WHS, and our national federation is likely to have several legal cases which they will undonbtably lose. One could also argue that the WHS, when understood, is a cheat's charter, for those who would like to inflate their handicaps for that one really big win in sponsored competitions or for other reassons.
I think this new system will get you more close to your actual scores (but you need to play your 20 rounds to get an honest score). The old system had a handicap you could only reach 1 out of 10 times and now you have to shoot it 8 out of 20. It's more average than the old system. The bad in this system is that you can't calculate you new handicap after the round as it depends of the round which gets dropped from the last 20 by adding a new round in. I'll take it that I just play shot by shot and enjoy my round instead of calculating what I need to shoot on the final holes to lower my handicap every round. And if you play regularly then you get a pretty honest handicap.
Course Handicap = [Handicap Index * (SR / 113)] + (CR- Par) so your handicap index is your best 8 rounds however once you factor slope rating as you guessed it definitely favors high handicap golfer since your multiplying the index.
I think the problem you've experienced is because they were 12 hole competition and therefore probably shouldn't have been qualifiers. The system picks up the last 6 holes as not played, as it was expecting an 18 hole round. When a hole isn't played the system now generates what it says is the score it expects you to get in those holes, based on how you've performed historically on similar length and difficulty holes as well as how you were playing. That's likely fine for the odd missed hole but for 6 it's likely completely screwed you over. For that 3rd round I'd wager your expected scores for the missing holes were no worse than par, so it probably thinks you've gone under par gross and then taken your handicap off. In all likely hood the system probably has you as 7 or 8 under nett for that round. When you factor in the same applies to the previous 2 rounds as well, those 3 scores will be counting in your best 8 of 20. Therefore you are highly likely playing off a false handicap. Ultimately though I think it's poor on the club to actually be putting those 12 hole competitions in to England golf in first place. I'd suggest whoever is responsible for competitions and handicaps at that club, simply doesn't understand how the system works
My hope is that a person with knowledge of the system and why it was adopted will see your video and come on to explain. Sheep in the rough? We had cranes on the course when I lived in Florida, and one day a baby was struck with a drive in the leg. The wildlife rescue was called to attend to it. Hope you don't need a veterinarian for a hit sheep. 😃
The one good improvement in the handicapping system is the introduction of the slope system. Other than that it never should have been changed. Easy now to manipulate your handicap because you can play a round and then decide to put the card in or not. I know of many players putting in only the good score casual card because they want to be a single figure golfer for instance plus those that are ' pot hunters' and want to win by any means so manipulate handicap upwards. Recent example in a knock out, 21 handicapper on par 5'sfor two and putting for eagles and opposition had no chance of winning match and surprise surprise they got to the final and won !
I feel your pain mate iv just started back golf after not playing for 10 years I was playing of 13.4 when I finished Im playing of 11 .2 now and can't compete at all there's 20 handicapers hitting fairway woods flush 240 yards of the deck and shooting 88 s
Get 20 rounds in and recreate the video to see if your opinion changes, it will most likely be very accurate if you put every round in that you play. At the minute it’s taking your best score out of three rounds and giving you penalty shots aswell. Once you have 20 rounds in the system, it’ll be calculated on the best 8 of 20 with not penalty shots. It’s basically not a handicap at the minute.
It’s fair. You shoot level par, you shouldn’t be claiming any shots. Golfers want shots all the time. But if you’re at a level able to shoot level par. You should never have any shots. Simple.
So ignore the two other cards, is that what you’re sayin? Genius system…..not forgetting they are 12 hole comps from yellows? Cmon you must have something between the ears?
A little unfair to start getting personal. But then again, I don’t know you as a person and maybe you are just a muppet 😂 I see your point to a degree. But I’ve only played now for 9months. Gone from 26.4 - 10.1 and already seen so much. So many golfers 🏌️ begging for more shots. So so sad, like a tramp asking for £5. The integrity of the sport seems to have disappeared. The focus should always be on as low as possible. Yet today, the game is about getting as many shots as you can get to compete. My point to you was that if your at a level that can shoot level par even if it’s only 12 holes, your a very talented player. If you want 8 shots or whatever you was on before, then your as bad as the rest of the numpties for me. Are you seriously going to be over the moon receiving 8 shots, or say 7 whatever. Shooting a 71 gross for example net 64 and winning a comp? Here’s your £50 prize money or whatever. For me I’m happy winning nothing and just focusing on shooting lower scores each time I play. Regardless of any handicap really. You know in your own self if it’s been a good round or bad round without even scoring a card!!!!!
Hi Andy, I live and play my golf in Germany and the club I’m a member of doesn’t have that many tournaments, and those they do arrange usually have a hefty price that includes a dinner of some kind. Not the thing I’m interested in. Now to add insult to injury they charge a 5 Euro administration fee for every card that I would like to submit outside of tournament play and the round needs to be registered a day in advance. So for me and most of my golfing mates, it makes the system completely uninteresting and completely negates its original intention. I dropped from 15 to 8 on a single round and while I can’t play to it, am stuck with it unless I stump up the extra cash above my membership fee. Obviously that’s my decision to make but it seems ridiculous to me.
I had this happen to me. I'd been a 4 handicap then had a 5 year gap where I wasn't playing...I put 3 cards in that would have equated to 8....I received a 3 handicap!!!!! It's all about getting 20 rounds in otherwise the system doesn't work!
Hi Andy, I am sure someone will give you the exact explanation but basically the WHS system will take your 12 hole score and calculate a18 hole score. As you have only had 3 cards in WHS era you handicap will be -2 under the lowest of the 3 cards. It will eventually average out to your best 8 in last 20. Remember, unlike CONGU it is designed to be a “fair” reflection as to how you are playing now. If you scored level gross then 1.6 could be a “fair” reflection of how you are playing. P.S. I understand how WHS works but don’t like it. It was supposed to make golf simpler and doesn’t and it’s alienating low handicap golfers
The old system did not take into account the difficulty of the course played. The new one works very well for 18 hole rounds, the partial round algorithms may be an issue…not sure.
It’s actually really simple and based upon data. Until you get 20 rounds under your belt, it will be fluid as you haven’t hit a sufficient baseline for an average.
The problem is that you never entered any cards the last 2 years and then entered 3 rounds that were low to your actual index. Keep playing and entering scores and it will adjust your index over time.
The only problem with the old system, was the point 1 train, this esp. noticable when you hit cat 1, where you needed offset a bad stretch with 3-4 solid rounds, to get a nett gain of -0.2 at most. The new system has as many problems as it has solved. And it had disincentivised low h/caps from playing in anything outside of general play rounds. As there is no point entering a comp where you know you have to shoot lights out just to get 5th. The whs is a playing potential system, and doesnt reflect the realism of what is going on now. It also has the biggest issue of being incredibly easy to manipulate both up and down. There are a lot more saandbaggers now (people who hold their h/caps intentionally) just so they can win trophies with stupid scores through the summer.. The only thing it has possibly helped are those that were cat1 already. As they were/are already closer to the potential than someone off of 24+ in a generalised case
Until you get towards the 20 rounds in your personal calculation you will see a lot of volatility in your handicap unless you have the same score each time. The system of averaging your best 8 from last 20 rounds in general works well. However I think there is a problem with the stroke allowance when it comes to high handicaps competing with low handicaps. I have seen instances of giving over a shot a hole in matchplay to golfers who can reach par 3's and some par 4's comfortably. High handicappers who strike the ball well, but have a couple of disasters in a round have a much better potential score than low handicappers.
Hi Andy, I know don't worry though you put a few bad cards in and it soon goes up. Stop shooting even par might help😂. Seriously though you have never been average mate. Love watching you play. Keep up the playing bloggs. Always an element of class about your content. All the best. Dom👍
Ok. So i do understand the new system. Here goes: First you need a "handicap index" - same as your old handicap really - and to work it out the system looks at your last 20 rounds, picks the best 8 and averages them. It totally ignores the other 12. So every time you play a new round is added to your 20 and one round drops off (the one you played 20 rounds ago) How good your round is is calculated by the difference between your score and the "Course Rating" - this is a rating of how hard the course is for a scratch golfer and of what CSS used to be. Some courses might have a par of 72 BUT a Course Rating of 71 , another 73 etc With me so far? More complexity comes when you actually play a competition. Armed with your "Handicap Index" you now need to find out how many shots youre going to get. This is decided by the "Slope" a course difficulty rating based on what a 20 handicapper would score AND the Course Rating (what a pro would score) The average slope rating for a course is 113. So divide the course slope by 113, and multiply it by your Handicap Index. You then take away the par of the course from tye Course Index and take that number away. If youre playing stroke play you then multiply that number by 95%. Eg. My index is 9.0 and i play a course with a par of 72, a slope of 120 and a course rating of 70. So 120/113 × 9.0 = 9.56 72-70 = 2 9.56 - 2 = 7.56 7.56 × 0.95 = 7.18. So id play off 7 at this course. Anyone still with me??????
Except you don't have to calculate anything, as it's worked out for you on the boards at the courses and on the England golf app. It's really not difficult at all. 😂
I never fail to be surprised how many golfers, who have played for years, complain that the new system is worse than the old. From my own personal experience the old system dropped me 4.6 shots when I had the round of my life. The old system then required that I play 46 qualifiers my handicap back to where it had been for years. The new system, is based on your average scoring not an exceptional score! That must be better.
To address all those who say: "It is ok you just have to reach 20 cards and it all calms down". There are many, many players who cannot or do not want to put in EDSs and will not play 20 competitions in a season. This is a way to shrink golf not grow golf. For myself if I play a round with friends it will be serious matchplay and fun. I do not want to put a card in and be worrying about my score or effectively cheating because I will end up off a higher handicap than my ability.
So under the old system if your local course was easy you had your handicap set which you took to every other course which could have been the most difficult in the world. Do you think that was right?
Why they've gone this way is beyond me. Handicap used to be a reflection of the score you could reasonably expect on any given day. Now it is the best score you can hope to achieve which is ridiculous. Last comp I played off 5 hc(7.0 in reality) shot 37 points (first time in 5 rounds I've gotten anywhere near my HC). Course rating for the day was 38 points. The Golf Australia website says the average score for a 7 hc is 31.7 points. How on earth did they think someone shooting 32 points is average. Surely the hc given should be what it takes to shoot 36 points. I have been avoiding some club events. Sorry for rant, I might need a lie down. 😊
I am more than happy to play without handicap - if you are better than me, fine, if you are not, also fine. I play the course and count my score, that is all I need.
Should you run a competition to rename the channel?? The Not-So-Average-Anymore Golfer? The Confused of Holywell Golfer? The No-Handicap Golfer? The-Best-8-Out-of-20 Golfer? Seriously though, I feel your pain. I understand the mathematics of handicapping but struggle with Course Ratings, which seem to be more random.
My hcp appears now will go up and down seasonally as I play well in Spring and Summer but by winter and I put on waterproofs my swing deteriates and I go back up. I can be an 8hcp in summer and 13hcp in winter. Under the old system I was a steady 8-9hcp for 20+ years and I could manage it. But 8 weeks ago I was already up to 10hcp from 9, with 7 of my best 8 scores being the next 7 to disappear. Luckily I’ve just shot a 77 and a 78 amongst a couple of 80’s and I’m hanging on in there, but under the old system I’d have probably already be back down to 9 or maybe even 8. If my next 3 rounds are poor I could be off 12! Maybe it is fairer as it best measures current form but without an App on the phone I’m clueless as to what to play off, and can no longer say I’m a single figure golfer😢.
You just made the cardinal sin of playing a blinder before you got 20 18 hole equivalent rounds in. The system is fine once you get all the data. It’s a mindset change to a measure of your potential, which as you’ve just demonstrated in one round is that you can play a gross even par 12 holes. It works fine in our club comps now, it just doesn’t work when you play with mates who make up a handicap based on their average scores. I play off 5 now, and I literally have to play the round of my life to get 36 stableford points
I don't know anything about this new system; but I do know about going out and golfing for forty years. Half the time, I'm just with friends, and sorta trying. Then, I'm out with a few competitors, and trying. Then, for ten percent of the time, I'm in real competition, and really trying. I've won a couple of match play events, and was pummeled, accusing me of being a sandbagger. I always turned in my cards, accurately. But did I play 100% competitively?
I think all the old rounds won’t count now as it’s more than two years, so it’s now based on those three rounds of which only the best one counts. Once you get 20 rounds in you will be average of your best 8, which should make more sense. I think once you reach that point it’s not that complex
I think it's because you've put three cards in of 12 holes only,The computers logarithm shows you as net par for the remaining 6. You need 20 cards of 18 holes for it to level out,but you're right the system is complicated and only to encourage the playing by beginners. It's not for the proper club player. In comps that used to be won with 38,39 points or one or two either side of par in medal its now 4 or 5 better ,impossible for a low handicap to compete
I've never played golf in the USA, but from what I can see and read the golf cultures in the USA and the UK are very different. The new handicap system doesn't really fit the golf culture in the UK, where we don't put cards in all the time. People play all sorts of formats and games with their mates for the bulk of social golf and don't write the scores down at all. It's no good saying that we just need to be educated, you might have been playing golf your whole life. It's like telling someone that they need to be educated on how to eat their tea, that's bound to alienate them. I've nothing for or against the new system but it does feel like a solution looking for a problem
I used to play alot in florida (usa) and the only cards I turned in was league play and scrambles. I played in 2 league a week and scrambles maybe once a month. I learned to calculate my average myself because a lot of courses I played the scrambles at were all over the place. We didn't have a general handicap system you could just go look up. There were people who would cheat and put in a higher handicap in scrambles but league it was just that season of play. If you had a season of play some where else they could call or you show for another league they would use your score for first 2 rounds and last leagues average if you were new to the league. It stopped people from jumping leagues and starting with a high handicap. Just sum input from about 10 yrs ago. I don't really play alot the last 5yrs and it's always just to hang out with friends half the time I don't even keep score now, lol.
After 20 cards the WHS works quite well, the problem as far as i can see is people being giving handicaps of 28 plus in competitions its ridiculous that someone with a Hcap of 54 gets 3 shots a hole
It's kinda complicated but this is how it works:
Firstly the formula to calculate your handicap for an 18 hole round: (Score-CR)*(113/SR)
The handicap index is calculated like this:
1-3 rounds: The best one -2
4 rounds: The best one -1
5 rounds: The best one
6 rounds: Average of the best two -1
7-8: Average of the best two
9-11: Average of the best three
12-14: Average of the best four
15-16: Average of the best five
17-18: Average of the best six
19: Average of the best seven
20: Average of the best eight
What happened to you, is that you had very few rounds registered, so it took your best result, which was 3.4 and deducted 2, so you're 1.4hcp now. At around 15 rounds, your handicap should normalize around what is used to be like. What I'm confused about, is why they didn't just use your previous 20 rounds to calculate your current handicap instead. If they're registered, your golf governing body should have access to them.
In my opinion the WHS is vast improvement on the old system as it addresses three key problems. Firstly, it makes it easier to put cards in at any time, not just club comps, so your handicap is much more current. Secondly, in the old system you could only go up 0.1 for each bad round. If you were genuinely playing badly, for example, if you developed the yips as I did, it could take 4 years to get to a representative handicap. Thirdly it levels the standard across courses. If you invited players to your course who were members at a ‘hard’ course their handicap didn’t represent their standard on your course. 1 or 2 shots is a huge difference in golf. And finally I think the App is great. You can see how ‘current’ someone’s handicap is and this deters the ‘sandbaggers’. Some of our local clubs won’t let you enter competitions unless you have 6-7 cards in the calendar year. There is no excuse not to do that now.
Regarding your actual handicap, this is just a number and can’t be compared to the old system. After slope and course ratings are applied you may well get more shots and if you can’t play to it then you will go up when you put more cards in. Everyone’s handicap will level to their standard according to the system once you have cards in.
I know some people find it hard to understand how it works. I have heard people say ‘I just had a bad round and my handicap went down’. This can be easily explained but if you find it too difficult then just play, enter your score in the app and accept the results. If you do that then your handicap will reflect your ability
Andy it does work with 20 cards in as everyone’s saying. The biggest moaners are the comp handicap manipulators who stick 20 cards in every 7 years..WHS encourages everyone to put cards in EVERY round, therefore showing a more accurate reflection of your hsndicsp. Our clubs medal last Sunday had 5 out of the top 6 places with handicaps of 5 or under.
As a 13 handicapper I think it works great for me. It’s the average of your 8 best rounds from your last 20. So it’s current and reflects your good days. You are penalised until you get the 20 rounds in (maybe 18 in uk). I’ve heard it’s not so clever for low handicappers and I agree the max handicaps now are ridiculous. But your handicap now reflects the difficulty of the course you play and adjusts to the level of difficulty.
I calculate my wife’s handicap, 23, and I’d say it’s totally accurate. That’s from 50 rounds in a year or so.
I think you summed it up perfectly by using the word Ridiculous. Enough said.
Andy, the WHS is pretty close to the system we’ve been playing in Scandinavia for donkey’s years. Just get your 20 cards in and then your index will be based on the best eight of the 20 most recent rounds on a rolling basis. Basing criticism on unusual circumstances like your own (coupled with those 12 hole comps) is rather unfair.
This is spot on.
Tony, your explanation is only partially true and Andys criticism is not only fair but factually correct.
The latest version of WHS specifically aimed to include rounds of less than 18H to create a more inclusive "Family of Golf", very laudable.
It is dramatically failing because for rounds of less than 18H an algorithm creates "Expected Scores" based upon the individual players HI and as such is flawed.
Both The R&A and USPGA specifically state that "SD is NOT individual" and yet in order to calculate the SD for a round "Expected Scores" is based upon the individual players HI.
This system only works in the short-term if are lucky enough to be able to play plenty of golf every season without real life getting in the way (work/family time). If you're a time-poor low-handicapped golfer its crap imho.
@@DexxBlue Thanks for the comment. I do not maintain that the WHS is perfect but the basic principles are sound. Handicap adjustments in the old system played in Scandinavia were made on the basis of the latest card submitted, with adjustments varying between 0.1 and full strokes up or down depending on the player's category. Now of course the index is based on the best eight from 20 rounds which can cause surprises e.g. as particularly good rounds eventually drop away. But course ratings and the opportunity for golfers of different abilities to play from the same tee are for me the key benefits.
@@markrushforth6212 Thanks for the comment. I assume by 'crap' you mean for competition purposes. If you're a time-poor low-handicap golfer you're likely to suffer whatever the system. All handicap systems aim essentially at creating a level playing field that allows golfers to compete fairly with each other. If you're a high handicap and also fast improving golfer then naturally the chances are you'll do well in competitions. C'est la vie.
I find it works well. As others have said, you just need to put more cards in and it will settle down. For anyone wondering this is how it works in the short term until you put 20 cards in.
3 scores: lowest score -2
4 scores: lowest score -1
5 scores: lowest score
6 scores: average of lowest 2 scores -1
7 or 8 scores: average of lowest 2 scores
9-11 scores: average of lowest 3 scores
12-14 scores: average of lowest 4 scores
15-16 scores: average of lowest 5 scores
17-18 scores: average of lowest 6 scores
19 scores: average of lowest 7 scores
20 scores: average of lowest 8 scores
I would just tell golfers to read the rules of handicapping , it is easy to understand. The problem is they cannot be bothered and then complain about it. As for the maximum handicap I do not see a problem with that either , clubs can limit the handicap range in a competition and anyone above that maximum can enter but play off whatever that figure is , alternatively have different bands for example 1 to 14 , 15 to 28 and 28+.
The above table explains why there can be quite significant swings in a persons handicap as they build up to the full 20 scores on their database. Something similar happened to a friend of mine where his HI swung between 7 and 13 until it began to level out as he submitted more scores. This is probably what has happened to Andy ?
You need more cards in. Complaining when you e only out a couple of cards in makes no sense
The system we had if i remember broadly was , they kick anything out worse than a double and then it does settle down as it is essentially the best 8 out of your last rolling 20 rounds, so you have lost 7 shots in 3 rounds which has you scratching your head, i think after 20 rounds it'll make more sense
This
Yep it’s meant to be based on 20 conforming rounds. He’ll average out eventually as he players more qualifiers.
@@richardcameron3762 Based on twenty 18 hole rounds. There is no facility for 12 hole scores AFAIK.
Andy - i feel for you, but i suspect it is because you do not have enough cards in the system. It really does work when you have 20 cards in. It does apply a strange reduction with so few cards - I like the system as i can post a number in the 70s and a predicable cut follows
Well said.....
You need to put your cards in...
The problem is not everyone uses the system the same.....
It was designed for players to put most cards in including general play at different courses.
Some people do and some people don't. Therefore, it's an unrealistic system at times.
Yep. It’s designed so you post all rounds but some people protect their handicaps so they can say they’re single figures or whatever and others post their worst. Nothing new there I guess. The system deliberately penalises you when you haven’t posted the full 20 rounds tii oh trg and counter act banditry.
The issue is the high handicaps now allowed.
The math is very simple. Once you get 20 scorecards in it’s the average of your lowest 8 differential. A differential is calculated (score - course rating) * 113/ slope rating
Your course handicap is (handicap index * slope rating /113) + (course rating - par).
There is no mystery. Your app should tell your index, your course handicap for the course/tee you are playing as well as the scores used to calculate your index.
It’s pretty close to the system the rest of the world used ( hence World Handicap System)
Andy I am going to tell you a story of something that happened to me back in 2016 or 2017 which may assist in helping explain the origin of the WHS system and why it was applied Worldwide including the UK. So grab yourself a coffee and read on. I was in Belek playing holiday golf and a member of our party was an Irishman who had lived in New York for over 15 years. On the first day of competition we all declared our handicaps apart from said Irishman who asked what the slope of the course was. We all looked at him as if he was stupid. Following the round over a beer or two he tried to explain the system in the US which was basically the WHS system and he said its coming to the UK in the near future. We all scoffed a little saying it would not work. He also pointed out that the system was used so golfers could vary their handicap when playing different courses around the world so they could use their handicap as a variable tool to play golf . He also added that most club golfers in the US don't actually play weekly in house competitions but they favour a more relaxed social aspect playing their "buddies" his words, for cash bets, that said they would return these social cards for every game played in order to maintain what he referred to as a true handicap (presumably so the losers could win their money back next time) . So in effect they don't play competitive golf as we do in the UK in the form of weekly medals, stablefords and majors. So therefore their system is not required the same way ours is (meaning our old system) to determine adjustments in playing handicap i.e CSS etc. He argued that they needed the slope system to play around the world and enjoy casual rounds with his buddies. So basically we in the UK were forced to adopt the WHS system because of the USA who have been pushing for it for many years which seems both unfair and pointless. Most golfers in the UK are members of private golf clubs and apart from open events at other venues would play the majority of their competitions at their home course where the par for the course tends to be the same year on year. Therefore UK golfers would not require a slope system in the same way as golfers in the US. In a nutshell this WHS has been forced upon on us with no prior consultation or trail by the administrators of golf and lets be honest what do they care what golfers think we only keep the game going so why would you ask the weekend warrior. WHS is to golf what VAR is to football, totally pointless and will have serious consequences in terms of attitudes towards the game. It remains to be seen if VAR will be scrapped with the same fate facing WHS in about 5 years. The End. (hope your still awake).
Funny how so many people, including yourself, refer to their index as their handicap. They’re two different things. Your index is just a number used to calculate your handicap and that handicap will change depending on the course difficulty. 😊
Yes your right another silly little word game, does what you call it make a difference? My index at Holywell is 1.3 and I play off the white and yellows off 1, is that better?
Oh I don’t call it index or handicap, I have some special names for it😡😂
I get the reason for the change, I just wish it was more transparent in its calculations and not just sticking a few numbers in and having to accept the number it spits out😢
I’m with Andy on this, if I’m asked my handicap I refer to my index as that’s what comes with me when I play another course, I don’t refer to my course handicap as they may not have heard of my course it’s common ground to use your index
I think that your 12 hole gross score is then extrapolated to an 18 hole score by assuming you play the remaining holes to your current 5.8 handicap.
This gives you a 3 over par 72
This is translated into a differential as follows (72-68.6)*117/113 (see course rating tables for Holywell
This gives a differential of 3.3
Because you only have 3 cards in, your handicap is based on your best single score less two shots
Hence your handicap after 3 rounds is 1.3
It will become more accurate as you get closer to having 20 rounds in WHS
As mentioned in a lot of comments, the handicap bounces all over the place until there are 20 rounds in the system, so my conclusion is that when Andy transferred his handicap to a new club, his history didn’t come across with that transfer. The important concept to grasp with the new system is that your handicap is not reflective of your “actual” ability, but your “potential” ability, which is two very different scenarios.
It's rubbish... Not fit for purpose, winning scores have become a joke. Your handicap should be a reflection of your ability, not your form. It wouldn't be too bad if you played off your handicap index and they brought CSS back to judge the level of difficulty of how a course plays. Last year I shot level par 72, my best round of the season to that point... my reward, handicap increase because a -2 score dropped out of the 20.
@@Erictheking66 HC should absolutely be a reflection of your form over your last 20 'qualifying' rounds.. Which is why the system works....
@@MicksPlace64 Agreed, so that would dismiss the argument as put forward by Gcrgolf.
@MicksPlace64 it doesn't work pal, it's a crap system that has led to unobtainable scores winning, sand bagging, its such an easy system to fudge your handicap if you are that way inclined. It's good for society or country club members who don't play official competition golf... but for a club that has 2 comps a week with fields over 100 it's pants.
Also if your 8 from 20 average say 1.0 over par, your playing index will be 1, if your average is around 5 over par, your playing index will be around 7, if its 12 around 16, 16 around 20 etc... how if your average is 5, 12, or 16 do you get extra shots on your home course where all 8 of those scores were played? It's a handicap system that isn't a level playing and the worse you are at the game the more it benefits you
@@Erictheking66 Everyone of my 20 are off the tips playing in comps, mostly medals. so for me its a fair reflection of my form.. If a good one drops off so be it. I don't play with or know of anyone who would even want to 'fudge' a HC. Its a tired old excuse by snobby low handicappers.
When I transferred across to WHS, with years of historic data, I started at 6.9 [8 under CONGU]. Last April I started at 7.5, by October I was up to 12.2, as of last week I was back down to 9. Previously I fought like hell to protect my single figure handicap, now I’d say I was ambivalent. I know to look for my worse counting score and if I beat it I’ll come down but I’ve no idea by how many …… the previous idea of finishing in the bucket for your category gave you a bit of latitude so you could be one, two or three over par but your handicap wouldn’t change based on the SSS for the comp. Now general rounds are encouraged to be recorded which I think are measured using 100% of your playing handicap whereas actual comps come in at 95% or 90% ….. can’t say I’m greatly impressed.
You are spot on when you mention the 20 cards etc. This is key. Until then your handicaps will be extremely varied. Your own level par experience (12 holes) shows just how the system works to give you a hcp based on current form. Not forgetting the added factors of slope and course ratings, which are another important part of making this system fairer.
Complete disclosure, I'm a high handicapper, and will stay that way until I make time to play regularly. Also, I am the world's worst mathematician. I used to wonder how the hell I got the handicap I did, but decided to study how it works and why it is set up the way it is. I now enjoy the challenge of working out course ratings etc and setting goals for my handicap. Knowledge of how it works has made it interesting. Thumbs up from me.
Remember, your index is a measure of your poential, not your average, and your 3rd round indicates you have the potential to play to par (scratch). Once you have the requisite number of rounds (20) for the system to fully function, it works fine. My one gripe is that if you play often, the 20 rounds reflect just 6 - 10 weeks. Then, rounds drop off that list very quickly and that hurts, especially if you had 3 good ones in a week all of which are being used in your handicap, and they all drop off the bottom in a single week.
I dont even keep track of a handicap. I score what I score and that is my philosophy about it. I wish everyone was just HONEST and there was a way to play competitively at your skill level without a handicap. People manipulate their scores with it, which defeats the whole purpose in the first place. Don't really see a solution other than qualifiers, but at my level that is extremely tedious. (I regularly score 80-89)
I posted this comment on your last video -
I am no expert! But it all depends on the course rating and slope rating. As an example my home course is par 70 but the course rating off the blue tees is 72.4 and the slope rating is 124. I play off 7.8 which means that my course handicap is 11 ie if I score 81 I have played to my handicap. By contrast off the white tees the par is again 70 but the course rating is 69.5 and the slope is 118, which makes my course handicap 8 ie I need to score 78 to play to handicap.
It gets more complex because your handicap index is made up of the best 8 of your last 20 recorded scores. So once you have 20 scores, next time you record a score the last one drops off and the new one comes in and a new average is calculated. So my 7.8 means that the average of my best scores from the last 20 is 7.8.
If you only have 3 scores they use your lowest score and deduct 2.0 to get your index. It then gradually adjusts until you have 20 scores and the average of the lowest 8 is used. The R&A website has all the info. Hope this is useful - and fingers crossed I'm correct!
Spot on mate, exactly how it works. Andy will go back up once he posts more rounds, unfortunate that he may feel the pain in the short term and get nowhere near the winners circle on those comps. It will even itself out though. Mine is 9 and I always say I’m the worst single figure player at my club.
It's a very poor system and isn't reflecting peoples' playing skills well at all. As for course slope ratings - there is far more to the difficulty of courses than number of bunkers/trees/length etc.
Yup - spot on. Keep putting the cards in Andy and when you get to best 8/20 you’ll have found your spot. Keep playing to par and it will be 1! It is crazy complex but I like the idea of having an index that gets adjusted to the course/tees you are playing from. Keep us up to date on the journey!
Well explained. My mate, who usually shoots between 85-95 was a 10 index after his first three rounds. Now that he’s submitted over 20, he’s a 16 index. It works perfectly well. Most people seem to just not like change, but it doesn’t make sense that you’d get the same shots on every course you play. Some are much harder.
@@michaelphillips5931 Yes. I made the point that you will not get the same shots at Bethpage Black and your local "pay and play." Why would anyone with an 8 handicap allowance at Bethpage expect to get 8 shots at a pay & play?
Once you have a good number of scores in the bank then it settles down nicely. My handicap will most likely change after my next qualifying round, as I'm knocking an 81 off that is currently one of best 8 scores, but whatever I shoot in that next round, my handicap will only change by a few decimal points either way, unless I shoot the lights out!
Hello Andy. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think we all should not pay to much attention to this matter. We should enjoy time and the game itself. In some countries the handycap really matters and in others it doesn’t. I know golfer who really hunt after a low handycap. Of course we all would not mind to be below 10 but really this is just a number. I like to improve my game and which number is related to this doesn’t matter much to me. 😊😊😊
It's a good attitude you have. For many it matters though, as they like to compete in club competitions and they like to feel their handicaps is competitive and reflects their ability well. Right now, at my club, it is clear this isn't happening.
Palmer said: you’re not good enough to get upset.
Let’s accept that sentiment and accept we need a handicap system to compete on even footing, cuz we’re just not good enough to compete straight up off par.
Instead, enjoy the game. A par is still a par and lovely whenever we get them. A birdie is still hard to come by. Bogies we need to accept and represent par for most of us and double bogies must be avoided.
If anyone thinks that an 18 handicapper can beat a scratch because of a handicap system, Oh well. The score is the score whatever it is. Hi
I'm sure it will even out once you have 20 scores in , a new member last year was bouncing around with changes of 4 - 5 shots everytime he put a card in untill his 20 rounds were in the his handicap stabilised.
It’s because in the new system it takes into account course rating less par. That means each tee has a difficulty rating based on length. This is logical because a course off the front tees is easier than a course off the back tees, however the par for the course always remains the same I.e 72. So, what your handicap reflects Andy is that you’re playing off tees that are too easy for your ability, or to put it another way your ability off those tees suggests you can shoot close to or level par. The solution is to play off the back tees where you’re likely to then shoot closer to your previous handicap.
You know what Andy -this is exactly why I just play casual golf-I enjoy the feeling of hitting good shots, and I enjoy the company,-What I don't worry about is the stress of handicaps, or winning or any of that bull.... Golf is about escaping the pressures of life-so why put pressure on yourself when you are out walking the fairways🤷🤷
You haven't posted your score for the last two years. So, your old handicap has no bearing on your current one. The talk of subtraction is simply non-sensical. Your current 1-handicap is simply the average of your last 3 score card differentials, the fewest number possible for handicap calculation. You shot pretty low scores in your last three 12-hole outing capping it off with a gross even par, so low single would sound about right.
Remember, scores older than 2 years aren't considered in a handicap calculation. This has always been the case. The only dodgy part of the new handicap system is the so-called course condition adjustment. Near as I can tell this looks at how people playing your course at the same time perform in relation to their baseline. The premise is that in a tough condition, windy, rain, etc., players would score worse than their baseline. So, if on the day everyone else was doing poorly and you shot an even par, your differential would be even better. So, on the last round, your effective differential could very well be positive.
Andy, have a chat with Match & Handicap Chairman at the Golf Club, he will be able to explain the workings of the system and more specifically what’s happening in your case. It’s all about averages and for me that’s what makes it a more equitable system.
It used to be quite an achievement to get your handicap down.... I've practiced hard and played really well to get down to single figures ( which we all strive for) ,at least you knew that you were playing well.
Now you're going up and down like a yo yo without playing better 😵💫😵💫😵💫.. I got myself down to a proper 3.2 and don't play comps anymore because I don't want to get false information given to me because of an untrue handicap system....it wasn't broken so why oh why mess with it,we all want to be better but want to earn our single or scratch handicap, I really wanted to get to scratch but the proper way 🌟🎊🤩🥳
Spot on , I never enter comps and my friends and I organise our own handicaps using the real system, I see so called cat1 players who would never get to that level before , but as usual they want make it easier for everyone, if you can’t play to 28 then find another game
So you rely on scores you were getting many years ago to hold onto a low HC. If you can't play to around that HC 8 times over a rolling 20 rounds you are not that player anymore 🤷
I look forward to you realising its a better system than the old once you’ve built up 20+ rounds. The last system was too easily manipulated by the few who like a bit of crystal. You’re simply suffering because as a single figure experienced golfer having shot 2 good rounds and 1 exceptional round. The new system has no other information as your previous rounds aren’t logged. As you progress through the rounds you’ll arrive at your current level of golf probably mid to high single figures and movements going forward will be very slight. 👍
It well make more sense when you put more cards in. I think it works fine, and everyone I know who plays regularly is fine with it.
It is a strange system when you first enter Into , I had spent 3 years getting my handicap down as low as I could and had finally got to single figure, new system came in and due to an issue with the golf club my scores were lost and I had to re-enter my cards , I had been playing really well and the 3 cards I had to enter were 1 over , 2 over and a sub par round of 1 under . To say I was surprised when I was given a handicap of +1.3 . I have spent the last 12 months getting my handicap back to where I believe it should be around 8. It has taken a lot of enjoyment out of the game for me
Andy I think this system has been introduced to make golf more inclusive, in that you can gain a handicap without being a member of a club. The main aim is to extend the game further. However, I like you believe it has had a negative effect. This is especially the case for lower handicap golfers. Also the system is confusing. You have your WHS then the course handicap and then for some it’s 95% of that in comps or not when playing friendlies. Then you have the whole issue of people putting in general play cards in order to manipulate their handicap. In the old days this practice was banned for the old cat 1 golfers. This is having the result of genuine golfers being balloted out of comps …………as you said the old system wasn’t broke so why fix it?
Playing in the USA, we’re not having to adjust all that much to the new handicaps system. The system seems to be fair in approximating a golfers potential for any round. Averaging the top 8 score differentials out of the most recent 20 scores posted seems to be a good representation of ability and form. Of course, all scores should be posted. Not a careful selection of rounds.
Using this system our group seems to compete evenly across a range of abilities. Mid handicapper of 14-15
There are so many questions such as how many rounds make up your current HCP, is it a full 8 of 20?
If memory serves, prior to WHS I played a comp scoring gross Par & 68 net. I was beaten by 2 guys who played off 13 & 12 I.e. net 67…a ‘known’ pair of sandbaggers (who ‘apparently’ manipulated their handicaps in the winter to win in the summer), it was far more common to do this, so I’ve been told by several friends & members…
With WHS sandbagging is far harder to achieve; for that we should all be grateful…
On the basis that you can submit general play scores at your own free will I fail to see how it stops those sorts and in fact makes it easier?
8 scores out of 20 points towards it being far more difficult to raise your handicap when you want to. Playing enough ‘sandbagging’ rounds during winter to take out your 8 lowest rounds would be extremely hard. But hey if cheating is important to someone playing golf, perhaps they’re in the wrong game⚽️; you would hope so⛳️
I like the idea of it adapting your handicap to the toughness of the course as you can be single figures on an easy open course but then double on a tough tight course as well as it keeping up with your level of play at the time however they definitely need to sort the algorithm out on how it assesses the handicap and keep closer eyes on manipulation but key thing is clubs need to either have a max handicap for comps or split the comps into categories to prevent the bandits from ruining it for all
I think the system works well. You really need to have 20 plus cards for it to settle down. It will then more reasonably assess your current handicap than the old method. I have genuinely seen a number of fellow golfers' handicaps change (mostly upwards) to reflect their true ability. The reason your handicap is anomalous is you've only entered 3 cards, all of which were good or very good. Over time you will no doubt have a few off days and your handicap will settle at its true number. I also like the fact that you have to post a certain number of cards in a given year - previously far too many players avoided handing in cards, only choosing to do so when conditions were favourable.
Hi Andy I have had a nightmare with my handicap after returning to golf after my son was born. I unfortunately had one of my best rounds ever on my 3rd round of the new system where I played to 6 gross then looked at my handicap the next day and it had dropped from 15.9 down to 4.1 . I did some research and up until to get 20 scores in it’s a little all over the place so I keep going hoping like you said in the video that it will sort it’s self out after 20 scores, by my 20th round my handicap had returned to 14.4 which I thought was fair . After my 20th round which I had a score difference of 16.7 ( didn’t play to my handicap) my handicap was cut to 9.1 after looking into it I found out that once I had my 20 scores in your handicap becomes official and in my case a hard cap comes into play which doesn’t allow your handicap too increase by more than 5 shots in a calendar year. Currently my average score difference is 19.7 over the best 8 scores in my last 20 rounds but my handicap hasn’t moved from 14.1 in over 20 rounds. It has had a very negative affect on my golf which has been noticed by my playing partners. I’ve spoken to my club officials who are trying to help but our club is a very small club which is ran by volunteers so I can’t expect to much so I tried contacting the local whs representative who just sent me back to my club officials. The whole thing is very disappointing especially when we here so much about growing the game and so forth. So sorry for the long winded comment but it might get worse for you before it gets better for you . I am really happy to are talking about this on your channel and hopefully get it out into the open for more golfers . Keep doing what your doing Andy your content and quality of your videos are great . To me it’s what golf is all about
Seems UK is a bit confused and as a scandinavian I am confiused why you are confused. I like WHS, I wrote a long one on your last video.
But when we switched in 2020, the rounds all the way back to 2017 would be counted to your best 8 out of the last 20 rounds. Is that not done in the UK, because in my mind you both play enough that you have a good backlog of rounds which would count and give you a good stable avererage. It will probably be slighly lower than the old system due to being your better 8 rounds average which count to the HCP, so how you play on a good day, not taking in those shite days in the average.
Put in the 20 scores and see where it shakes out - Your 12 holes at even par really affects the calculation with minimal scores input.
You can also submit casual playing cards good and bad... dont' just wait for comps get 20 cards in
Andy me and a friend had the same problem as yourself so we went on a campaign.... Where ever we played we put in a card... It took us a month to build a history but it did work... At the moment you have only 3 so when it works out your mean it is not reflecting properly but when you have your base number of rounds you should find it sorts itself out.... Get more cards in as fast as possible..... Regards
I think someone mentioned potential in another comment which i believe the old system was based on. Everyone has the potential and a bit of good fortune, to post a really low score but more than likely not be able to play like it week in week out! I shot a 78 off a 14 handicap last year and came in with 46 points! not got anywhere near it since. If you maintain the 20 minimum scores required this new system will reflect your current playing ability.
The system is fine, it works and is very simple to understand. Just play golf, enter your scores and let the system do it's work. Anyway, the idea is to play well and lower your handicap, not to be a bandit and keep ones handicap artificially high.
Also, stop entering 12 hole results, as the WHS only calculates on 9 hole and 18 hole scores. If you keep entering 12 hole scores, you really can't expect the system to work correctly.
The club comp is 12 holes? What do you suggest ya 🤡
@@TheAverageGolfer You'll have to speak to your club secretary Andy and have the scores rescinded as incorrect. You will have very little success if you try dealing with England Golf directly. I can only suspect that England Golf/WHS is taking your 12 holes and allocating them to 18 hole scores and this may be why your handicap is shooting down.
Good video Andy. There's a lot of support for the WHS in the comments. It would be interesting to know if there's much support for it from low hcp golfers. The pro in your video suggested the lowest golfers don't want to enter club competitions now where you've got to shoot 43 to 45 points every comp. in order to have a chance. At our club we've set up a single hcp weekly group, run it as a qualifying competition and playing to your hcp or one or two shots better means you'll likely win. No more moaning about bandits and 45 pts!
I understand it, and it works well for me. The problem is and always was the people who purposely have those bad rounds to keep their HC high and then shoot the lights out for the bigger comps.
For me, the WHS has been very accurate so far. It literally reflects your best score, and then the average of your best scores, as you submit more cards. So if you shot par then that's your handicap. It'll be more realistic once you submit more cards. I think the issue is more to do with low handicappers feeling they can't win anymore because someone else has 30 shots and it's more likely for them to have a good round and shot 10 under net than for a 5 handicapper to be 10 under.
Andy I know your pain I personally entered a comp off the whites and being a senior off 28 I received 32 handicap for the comp and played an absolute blinder. After entering the card I got a new handicap of 20 and finished second the winner of the comp was off the yellows beat me by a shot but was only deducted 4 strokes. I think the old system was better as I'm back up to a 26 handicap after my one comp wonder where I did shoot 90 to be fair.
I had a disaster of a round, unwell, rain and cold. Individual comp. So no one relying on me. Only turned up because I don’t like being thought of badly. Posted a score of six Stableford points. Handicap stayed the same.
Played a blinder, forty eight points, handicap went up.
Mystery. Incidentally, during Covid it changed three times without me playing a single round.
It makes sense that a bad round didn’t affect your handicap. Since it wouldn’t be one of the best 8 of your last 20 rounds, the only way for it to change is if one of your previous best 8 fell off.
Your handicap going up after posting a good score would be because a better one fell out of your most recent 20.
As for it changing without playing, I have no clue.
Remember too, if you play at multiple courses or different tees at the same course, it’s your best 8 differentials it uses, not your best scores.
The basic message that I can can glean from the comments posted (and from the county officials when my handicap was 'messed up' and I questioned it) are just keep putting in the scores and eventually your handicap will be a true reflection of your golf potential? That may be 20 scores +, in the meantime just keep playing, paying, come off the course confused, be non competitive and probably not enjoy the game.
The system works. So much better than the old one. We have been using this new system for three years in Sweden. So be patient and play on😂 It’s working beatifully.
My handicap is 14 my club is a par 70.ive hit 14 over par once and most of my rounds have been in the 90s.i keep looking to see if my handicap will jump up but never does and it's now been about 40 rounds
He moved to a much harder course and that is why his GA handicap went down despite him not hitting par. The round that he shot par, that was classed as an exceptional round (less than 7 under GA hcp) and regraded his past scores, leading to the 1.3 GA hcp.
It does not help when people use acronyms that some might not understand. I've used something like the WHS for more than 20 years playing in France - it really is simple and easy to use. But what does a GA hcp mean. The terms used in the WHS include slope, par, course handicap and playing handicap, and some term like or signifying standard scratch score. Where does GA fit in?
@@ianburton9223 sorry I was up late with the baby when I wrote that...GA HCP is Golf Australia handicap i.e. the standardised WHS index taking into account slope and scratch rating of the courses played.
I agree, the WHS is easy and pretty simple to use.
@@timhaskett8644 Congratulations for the baby. My two babies are now 51 and 48 years old.
Hey Andy, the system is not prefect in the UK, the issue is not enough cards are submitted. In the past members would submit 8-15 cards a year for the average member. The new system is used in other countries where each round played will be submitted so giving golfers a "true" reflection of their playing ability. The issue in the UK is we are still not submitting cards everytime we play until that changes the system will struggle. My issue is the new slope/course ratings help the mid to higher handicappers but awarding more shots for their playing handicap. WHS is not that difficult to understand once you have all 20 cards in. Keep plugging away
As people who seem to have a grasp of the system point out you won’t get an accurate handicap until you get twenty cards in. Once you get to twenty it will balance out but you will need to play regularly and keep entering cards. Bear in mind your index will eventually reflect your better scores.
I always thought that the old system did not cater for playing easier or more difficult courses than your home club. I played in France and got more shots at a tough course under their system at the time , and it seems logical. I get more shots off our whites compared to yellows - logical. What I don't like is the ease of change. Realistically, only the new to the game change quickly if they work at it. The idea is to encourage people into the game by having high handicaps but that only creates slower play and doesn't encourage better play.
It works OK once you get past the 20 rounds, we've been playing it since the beginning of 2020, as we already had a similar system prior we had the 20 rounds ready for calculation, and my handicap moved about 0.5. As has been mentioned it is a 'potential' not your 'real' handicap once you have your 20 rounds. Other things that will effect the handicap is the 'Çourse Difficulty' and the tee you play on the course, but until you get the 20 rounds it sounds like a mess for players.
I encounter quite the contrary issue. As a player with a disability, my usual rounds are rather disappointing (handicaps ranging from 33 to 40). However, on my better days, my performance sees a significant uptick. Occasionally, perhaps one or two times a season, I might play at a handicap of 7 to 10. This results in an average handicap calculation of around 25, given the infrequency and disparity of my good rounds.
Previously, the system pegged my handicap consistently between 10 and 12, which felt equitable, especially during tournaments when I chanced upon a good day. Now, the scenario has turned rather preposterous. It's possible for me to skew a competition with rather extraordinary results if a good day aligns with the event.
To be candid, I find this new arrangement quite unsatisfactory. Naturally, I am eager to win, but I believe victory should reflect a fair assessment of my peak performances, not be skewed by an average of my last 20 rounds, which invariably fails to represent my best efforts.
There are pluses and minuses…
The plus is the slope rating system allows your handicap to be more relevant at away courses , and you can submit scores from your away rounds. This I suspect was a US led initiative as many US golfers want to have competitive handicaps when they play tough UK courses …
But as it’s an average system, the round you have just submitted wont necessarily immediately reflect your handicap. So my 8th worst card is kicked out by 33 points and I get cut because I just replaced a 23 points . The old system was immediate you went up .1 or if you hit 36 points you dropped .8. What the new system does ( not a big fan ) is means high handicappers have a tougher time . There terrible round doesn’t just move .1 but can move much more. Equally 2 or 3 good rounds in a row and you plummet quickly. That’s why it’s confusing because it’s not directly related to the round you just entered. I suspect after another 10 rounds you will probably be back to a handicap you can live with .
PS non 18 hole submissions are more likely to reduce your handicap. They extrapolate what you would have shot over 18 , when of course we know our last 4/5 holes suffer with tiredness etc.
Totally agree, I’m newish to golf and new to the handicap system and so far put in 9 cards averaging 88 per round. My whs scores says 12.2 but surely that’s not correct? All rounds played on par 71 bar 1 round (par 72) so shouldn’t I be around a 17 handicap ??
Andy your case is somewhat special: someone who hasnt played comp golf in a while and wasnt a member. Now you start with 8.something with no previous scores in. And the first rounds you put in are very descent - one of which a level par round. Maybe the next comp round youll play is under Par? Then youll be a scratch player ;-)
Put in at least 10-12 rounds and we speak again ;-)
But yeah the old system where you played i.e. 3 under your hc and then were able to compute your new Handicap was nice but the new Handicap system is good for the high handicapers or beginners imho
Kepp going!
I do not live in the UK, and here we have a national Interclub competition in April in 4 categories of handicap. There was a big scandal this year with one club receiving quasi disqualifications as the national federation believed that certain players had done too many EDSs.to falsely inflate handicaps.
It then led the federation to over react and investigate all the clubs and disqualify more players.. I know of one suspicious case, but beyond that it is evident that EDSs are central to the WHS, and our national federation is likely to have several legal cases which they will undonbtably lose. One could also argue that the WHS, when understood, is a cheat's charter, for those who would like to inflate their handicaps for that one really big win in sponsored competitions or for other reassons.
I think this new system will get you more close to your actual scores (but you need to play your 20 rounds to get an honest score). The old system had a handicap you could only reach 1 out of 10 times and now you have to shoot it 8 out of 20. It's more average than the old system. The bad in this system is that you can't calculate you new handicap after the round as it depends of the round which gets dropped from the last 20 by adding a new round in. I'll take it that I just play shot by shot and enjoy my round instead of calculating what I need to shoot on the final holes to lower my handicap every round. And if you play regularly then you get a pretty honest handicap.
Course Handicap = [Handicap Index * (SR / 113)] + (CR- Par) so your handicap index is your best 8 rounds however once you factor slope rating as you guessed it definitely favors high handicap golfer since your multiplying the index.
If you're a 1 handicap golfer, I dare say you aren't an "Average Golfer". Looks like a name change is in order ;)
I think the problem you've experienced is because they were 12 hole competition and therefore probably shouldn't have been qualifiers.
The system picks up the last 6 holes as not played, as it was expecting an 18 hole round. When a hole isn't played the system now generates what it says is the score it expects you to get in those holes, based on how you've performed historically on similar length and difficulty holes as well as how you were playing.
That's likely fine for the odd missed hole but for 6 it's likely completely screwed you over. For that 3rd round I'd wager your expected scores for the missing holes were no worse than par, so it probably thinks you've gone under par gross and then taken your handicap off. In all likely hood the system probably has you as 7 or 8 under nett for that round.
When you factor in the same applies to the previous 2 rounds as well, those 3 scores will be counting in your best 8 of 20. Therefore you are highly likely playing off a false handicap.
Ultimately though I think it's poor on the club to actually be putting those 12 hole competitions in to England golf in first place. I'd suggest whoever is responsible for competitions and handicaps at that club, simply doesn't understand how the system works
My hope is that a person with knowledge of the system and why it was adopted will see your video and come on to explain. Sheep in the rough? We had cranes on the course when I lived in Florida, and one day a baby was struck with a drive in the leg. The wildlife rescue was called to attend to it. Hope you don't need a veterinarian for a hit sheep. 😃
The one good improvement in the handicapping system is the introduction of the slope system. Other than that it never should have been changed. Easy now to manipulate your handicap because you can play a round and then decide to put the card in or not. I know of many players putting in only the good score casual card because they want to be a single figure golfer for instance plus those that are ' pot hunters' and want to win by any means so manipulate handicap upwards. Recent example in a knock out, 21 handicapper on par 5'sfor two and putting for eagles and opposition had no chance of winning match and surprise surprise they got to the final and won !
I feel your pain mate iv just started back golf after not playing for 10 years I was playing of 13.4 when I finished Im playing of 11 .2 now and can't compete at all there's 20 handicapers hitting fairway woods flush 240 yards of the deck and shooting 88 s
They won't be off 20 for long then.
Get 20 rounds in and recreate the video to see if your opinion changes, it will most likely be very accurate if you put every round in that you play. At the minute it’s taking your best score out of three rounds and giving you penalty shots aswell. Once you have 20 rounds in the system, it’ll be calculated on the best 8 of 20 with not penalty shots. It’s basically not a handicap at the minute.
It’s fair. You shoot level par, you shouldn’t be claiming any shots.
Golfers want shots all the time. But if you’re at a level able to shoot level par. You should never have any shots.
Simple.
So ignore the two other cards, is that what you’re sayin? Genius system…..not forgetting they are 12 hole comps from yellows? Cmon you must have something between the ears?
A little unfair to start getting personal. But then again, I don’t know you as a person and maybe you are just a muppet 😂
I see your point to a degree. But I’ve only played now for 9months.
Gone from 26.4 - 10.1 and already seen so much.
So many golfers 🏌️ begging for more shots. So so sad, like a tramp asking for £5.
The integrity of the sport seems to have disappeared.
The focus should always be on as low as possible.
Yet today, the game is about getting as many shots as you can get to compete.
My point to you was that if your at a level that can shoot level par even if it’s only 12 holes, your a very talented player.
If you want 8 shots or whatever you was on before, then your as bad as the rest of the numpties for me.
Are you seriously going to be over the moon receiving 8 shots, or say 7 whatever. Shooting a 71 gross for example net 64 and winning a comp?
Here’s your £50 prize money or whatever.
For me I’m happy winning nothing and just focusing on shooting lower scores each time I play. Regardless of any handicap really.
You know in your own self if it’s been a good round or bad round without even scoring a card!!!!!
Hi Andy, I live and play my golf in Germany and the club I’m a member of doesn’t have that many tournaments, and those they do arrange usually have a hefty price that includes a dinner of some kind. Not the thing I’m interested in. Now to add insult to injury they charge a 5 Euro administration fee for every card that I would like to submit outside of tournament play and the round needs to be registered a day in advance. So for me and most of my golfing mates, it makes the system completely uninteresting and completely negates its original intention. I dropped from 15 to 8 on a single round and while I can’t play to it, am stuck with it unless I stump up the extra cash above my membership fee. Obviously that’s my decision to make but it seems ridiculous to me.
I had this happen to me. I'd been a 4 handicap then had a 5 year gap where I wasn't playing...I put 3 cards in that would have equated to 8....I received a 3 handicap!!!!!
It's all about getting 20 rounds in otherwise the system doesn't work!
Hi Andy, I am sure someone will give you the exact explanation but basically the WHS system will take your 12 hole score and calculate a18 hole score. As you have only had 3 cards in WHS era you handicap will be -2 under the lowest of the 3 cards. It will eventually average out to your best 8 in last 20. Remember, unlike CONGU it is designed to be a “fair” reflection as to how you are playing now. If you scored level gross then 1.6 could be a “fair” reflection of how you are playing. P.S. I understand how WHS works but don’t like it. It was supposed to make golf simpler and doesn’t and it’s alienating low handicap golfers
The old system did not take into account the difficulty of the course played. The new one works very well for 18 hole rounds, the partial round algorithms may be an issue…not sure.
It’s actually really simple and based upon data. Until you get 20 rounds under your belt, it will be fluid as you haven’t hit a sufficient baseline for an average.
Put more cards in and your handicap will even out. The new system is a big improvement.
The problem is that you never entered any cards the last 2 years and then entered 3 rounds that were low to your actual index. Keep playing and entering scores and it will adjust your index over time.
The only problem with the old system, was the point 1 train, this esp. noticable when you hit cat 1, where you needed offset a bad stretch with 3-4 solid rounds, to get a nett gain of -0.2 at most. The new system has as many problems as it has solved. And it had disincentivised low h/caps from playing in anything outside of general play rounds. As there is no point entering a comp where you know you have to shoot lights out just to get 5th. The whs is a playing potential system, and doesnt reflect the realism of what is going on now. It also has the biggest issue of being incredibly easy to manipulate both up and down. There are a lot more saandbaggers now (people who hold their h/caps intentionally) just so they can win trophies with stupid scores through the summer..
The only thing it has possibly helped are those that were cat1 already. As they were/are already closer to the potential than someone off of 24+ in a generalised case
Carry on pal and you will be off plus 6 by June 👏👏😆😆 crazy !!!!
Until you get towards the 20 rounds in your personal calculation you will see a lot of volatility in your handicap unless you have the same score each time. The system of averaging your best 8 from last 20 rounds in general works well. However I think there is a problem with the stroke allowance when it comes to high handicaps competing with low handicaps. I have seen instances of giving over a shot a hole in matchplay to golfers who can reach par 3's and some par 4's comfortably. High handicappers who strike the ball well, but have a couple of disasters in a round have a much better potential score than low handicappers.
Hi Andy, I know don't worry though you put a few bad cards in and it soon goes up. Stop shooting even par might help😂. Seriously though you have never been average mate. Love watching you play. Keep up the playing bloggs. Always an element of class about your content. All the best. Dom👍
Ok. So i do understand the new system. Here goes:
First you need a "handicap index" - same as your old handicap really - and to work it out the system looks at your last 20 rounds, picks the best 8 and averages them.
It totally ignores the other 12.
So every time you play a new round is added to your 20 and one round drops off (the one you played 20 rounds ago)
How good your round is is calculated by the difference between your score and the "Course Rating" - this is a rating of how hard the course is for a scratch golfer and of what CSS used to be. Some courses might have a par of 72 BUT a Course Rating of 71 , another 73 etc
With me so far?
More complexity comes when you actually play a competition. Armed with your "Handicap Index" you now need to find out how many shots youre going to get.
This is decided by the "Slope" a course difficulty rating based on what a 20 handicapper would score AND the Course Rating (what a pro would score)
The average slope rating for a course is 113. So divide the course slope by 113, and multiply it by your Handicap Index.
You then take away the par of the course from tye Course Index and take that number away.
If youre playing stroke play you then multiply that number by 95%.
Eg.
My index is 9.0 and i play a course with a par of 72, a slope of 120 and a course rating of 70.
So 120/113 × 9.0 = 9.56
72-70 = 2
9.56 - 2 = 7.56
7.56 × 0.95 = 7.18.
So id play off 7 at this course.
Anyone still with me??????
Except you don't have to calculate anything, as it's worked out for you on the boards at the courses and on the England golf app. It's really not difficult at all. 😂
@@gregpotts9407 Obviously! But if you understand how it's worked out then you can have an informed opinion on whether it's "fair" or logical.
I never fail to be surprised how many golfers, who have played for years, complain that the new system is worse than the old. From my own personal experience the old system dropped me 4.6 shots when I had the round of my life. The old system then required that I play 46 qualifiers my handicap back to where it had been for years. The new system, is based on your average scoring not an exceptional score! That must be better.
But you’ve just seen my situation was based on an exceptional score not my average??? 🤷♂️
To address all those who say: "It is ok you just have to reach 20 cards and it all calms down". There are many, many players who cannot or do not want to put in EDSs and will not play 20 competitions in a season. This is a way to shrink golf not grow golf. For myself if I play a round with friends it will be serious matchplay and fun. I do not want to put a card in and be worrying about my score or effectively cheating because I will end up off a higher handicap than my ability.
So under the old system if your local course was easy you had your handicap set which you took to every other course which could have been the most difficult in the world. Do you think that was right?
You are 100 percent right, it’s not working. There was nothing wrong with the old system. Something needs to be done. 🤦♂️
It is working and completely fair and better than the old system. Play 20 qualifying rounds a year and its the fairest reflection of your ability..
@@MicksPlace64 Totally disagree.
Nothing wrong with the system as long as you play regularly and play at least 20 rounds
Why they've gone this way is beyond me. Handicap used to be a reflection of the score you could reasonably expect on any given day. Now it is the best score you can hope to achieve which is ridiculous. Last comp I played off 5 hc(7.0 in reality) shot 37 points (first time in 5 rounds I've gotten anywhere near my HC). Course rating for the day was 38 points. The Golf Australia website says the average score for a
7 hc is 31.7 points. How on earth did they think someone shooting 32 points is average. Surely the hc given should be what it takes to shoot 36 points. I have been avoiding some club events. Sorry for rant, I might need a lie down. 😊
I am more than happy to play without handicap - if you are better than me, fine, if you are not, also fine. I play the course and count my score, that is all I need.
Should you run a competition to rename the channel?? The Not-So-Average-Anymore Golfer? The Confused of Holywell Golfer? The No-Handicap Golfer? The-Best-8-Out-of-20 Golfer?
Seriously though, I feel your pain. I understand the mathematics of handicapping but struggle with Course Ratings, which seem to be more random.
My hcp appears now will go up and down seasonally as I play well in Spring and Summer but by winter and I put on waterproofs my swing deteriates and I go back up. I can be an 8hcp in summer and 13hcp in winter. Under the old system I was a steady 8-9hcp for 20+ years and I could manage it. But 8 weeks ago I was already up to 10hcp from 9, with 7 of my best 8 scores being the next 7 to disappear. Luckily I’ve just shot a 77 and a 78 amongst a couple of 80’s and I’m hanging on in there, but under the old system I’d have probably already be back down to 9 or maybe even 8. If my next 3 rounds are poor I could be off 12! Maybe it is fairer as it best measures current form but without an App on the phone I’m clueless as to what to play off, and can no longer say I’m a single figure golfer😢.
You just made the cardinal sin of playing a blinder before you got 20 18 hole equivalent rounds in. The system is fine once you get all the data. It’s a mindset change to a measure of your potential, which as you’ve just demonstrated in one round is that you can play a gross even par 12 holes. It works fine in our club comps now, it just doesn’t work when you play with mates who make up a handicap based on their average scores. I play off 5 now, and I literally have to play the round of my life to get 36 stableford points
The problem is you have to get 20 rounds in to see the true results
I don't know anything about this new system; but I do know about going out and golfing for forty years. Half the time, I'm just with friends, and sorta trying. Then, I'm out with a few competitors, and trying. Then, for ten percent of the time, I'm in real competition, and really trying.
I've won a couple of match play events, and was pummeled, accusing me of being a sandbagger. I always turned in my cards, accurately.
But did I play 100% competitively?
Such a great Channel congrats Andy. Love the hidden gems courses. Keep it up
I think all the old rounds won’t count now as it’s more than two years, so it’s now based on those three rounds of which only the best one counts. Once you get 20 rounds in you will be average of your best 8, which should make more sense. I think once you reach that point it’s not that complex
Even worse in Spain, all our big comps won with 47/52 points, we have no chance. The average handicap of the winners are 34 plus.
I think it's because you've put three cards in of 12 holes only,The computers logarithm shows you as net par for the remaining 6. You need 20 cards of 18 holes for it to level out,but you're right the system is complicated and only to encourage the playing by beginners. It's not for the proper club player. In comps that used to be won with 38,39 points or one or two either side of par in medal its now 4 or 5 better ,impossible for a low handicap to compete
I've never played golf in the USA, but from what I can see and read the golf cultures in the USA and the UK are very different. The new handicap system doesn't really fit the golf culture in the UK, where we don't put cards in all the time. People play all sorts of formats and games with their mates for the bulk of social golf and don't write the scores down at all.
It's no good saying that we just need to be educated, you might have been playing golf your whole life. It's like telling someone that they need to be educated on how to eat their tea, that's bound to alienate them.
I've nothing for or against the new system but it does feel like a solution looking for a problem
True, I think in the USA people put a card in almost every round they play.
I used to play alot in florida (usa) and the only cards I turned in was league play and scrambles. I played in 2 league a week and scrambles maybe once a month. I learned to calculate my average myself because a lot of courses I played the scrambles at were all over the place. We didn't have a general handicap system you could just go look up. There were people who would cheat and put in a higher handicap in scrambles but league it was just that season of play. If you had a season of play some where else they could call or you show for another league they would use your score for first 2 rounds and last leagues average if you were new to the league. It stopped people from jumping leagues and starting with a high handicap. Just sum input from about 10 yrs ago. I don't really play alot the last 5yrs and it's always just to hang out with friends half the time I don't even keep score now, lol.
After 20 cards the WHS works quite well, the problem as far as i can see is people being giving handicaps of 28 plus in competitions its ridiculous that someone with a Hcap of 54 gets 3 shots a hole
WHS is so much better than old system , your hcp is much more accurate. I
As many others pointed out its very simple once u get the basics right