Ok any one who hates on bards. lets just remember- ELVIS WAS A BARD!..also remember that back in the day you had to go 5 levels of fighter and 5 levels of rogue and 1 level of caster before you could be a bard. Stop focusing on the PREFORM and remember they are jack of all trades, masters of deception. Bards rock!
I had a pathfinder bard once, never got to play her but she was a spear wielding, no nonsense, "commander" type character using the savage skald archtype. The idea is she was trying to gain support for some political maneuvering in the lands of the linnorm kings and she was going to fund this through adventuring. So instead of seduction she was about hirelings and strategy and talking to nobles and walking in like she owns the place. I wish I got to play her. When I run, nothing social is ever instant. A successful roll means the NPC is a bit more on your side than before, a failure means they're a bit less and a bad failure shuts the conversation down. People react different ways to different methods and if you wear someone down they could react by shutting down or giving in or digging in their heels and getting angry. I kind of repurpose "Insight/Sense Motive" as less of a lie detector and more of an "empathy and social intelligence" skill. Where you read their reactions and you get stuff like "This lady's about to start throwing punches if you keep pushing it" or "His demeanor seems to soften, though he's still trying to act like a hard ass".
Some thoughts will be forthcoming (!) For my part I think the one-trick pony malaise of bards comes from the simplistic understanding of charisma. With charisma-linked abilities (in earlier editions), Bards are assumes to “look good” and “looking good offensively” is perceived as their primary talent and ability to realize outcomes, as surely as the wizards cast fireballs and fighters swing swords It’s wrong, and more wrong in 5E wheee bards are much less married to charisma.
I would say the biggest issue is that most players don't play the bard as a minstrel or troubadour, but as rogue that has some charm spells, thus the class gets completely reduced to game mechanics and does not represent an actual role in the game world. And that these charm spells get used in a rapey fashion is not helping either. Guess there is a reason why I prefer to play other things and not D&D, which simply doesn't help much in exploring the human condition, but is mostly just good to explore some dungeons.
I'd argue that D&D can have some deeper themes, but yeah it's mostly just designed to be a fun fantasy game and nothing is wrong with that in my opinion.
Ok any one who hates on bards. lets just remember- ELVIS WAS A BARD!..also remember that back in the day you had to go 5 levels of fighter and 5 levels of rogue and 1 level of caster before you could be a bard. Stop focusing on the PREFORM and remember they are jack of all trades, masters of deception. Bards rock!
I had a pathfinder bard once, never got to play her but she was a spear wielding, no nonsense, "commander" type character using the savage skald archtype. The idea is she was trying to gain support for some political maneuvering in the lands of the linnorm kings and she was going to fund this through adventuring. So instead of seduction she was about hirelings and strategy and talking to nobles and walking in like she owns the place. I wish I got to play her.
When I run, nothing social is ever instant. A successful roll means the NPC is a bit more on your side than before, a failure means they're a bit less and a bad failure shuts the conversation down. People react different ways to different methods and if you wear someone down they could react by shutting down or giving in or digging in their heels and getting angry. I kind of repurpose "Insight/Sense Motive" as less of a lie detector and more of an "empathy and social intelligence" skill. Where you read their reactions and you get stuff like "This lady's about to start throwing punches if you keep pushing it" or "His demeanor seems to soften, though he's still trying to act like a hard ass".
Some thoughts will be forthcoming (!)
For my part I think the one-trick pony malaise of bards comes from the simplistic understanding of charisma. With charisma-linked abilities (in earlier editions), Bards are assumes to “look good” and “looking good offensively” is perceived as their primary talent and ability to realize outcomes, as surely as the wizards cast fireballs and fighters swing swords
It’s wrong, and more wrong in 5E wheee bards are much less married to charisma.
Yeah, charisma as a "personality" stat is an issue, especially when some folks see it as a "mind control" stat.
I would say the biggest issue is that most players don't play the bard as a minstrel or troubadour, but as rogue that has some charm spells, thus the class gets completely reduced to game mechanics and does not represent an actual role in the game world. And that these charm spells get used in a rapey fashion is not helping either. Guess there is a reason why I prefer to play other things and not D&D, which simply doesn't help much in exploring the human condition, but is mostly just good to explore some dungeons.
Agreed- when you see something as a bunch of numbers it can be difficult to place them in the world
I'd argue that D&D can have some deeper themes, but yeah it's mostly just designed to be a fun fantasy game and nothing is wrong with that in my opinion.