ITTF World Cup 2024: 4 Games Format is Terrible & It's Ruining Table Tennis! | Situation Analysis
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- Опубліковано 19 кві 2024
- ITTF experimented with a new 4 game format for the group stage of the World Cup 2024 held in Macao at it was a disaster! It led to many controversial issues during the match. Especially announcing that Jonathan Groth won even though he didn't. Watch this video to find out what I think about this ridiculous system.
Credits:
World Table Tennis
ITTFWorld
I want to clarify that I own none of the rights for the clips. All credits and rights are reserved to the respective copyright owners. If any content owners have an issue with the video, do contact me at
jinge3880@gmail.com and the video will be deleted immediately.
My purpose is not to take advantage of other UA-camrs" content but to share my own thoughts and ideas about table tennis. I love table tennis and I want to promote table tennis to the world. I also sacrificed my time and rest to edit the videos so I hope everything goes smoothly.
#ittf #wtt #tabletennis #pingpong #worldcup #badminton
Thanks for the video and I agree with you on most of the things!
Side angle should be STOPPED ASAP! You can show similar number of sponsors in vertical mode as well. Some comments mentioned it is easier for analysis, for Gods sake have an extra camera for analysis on center and table 1. Don't ruin the watching experience and make people stop watching TT. It's so tiring on the eyes to watch TT in side angle.
Love the new Black and one color theme in WTT events. Makes the sport look premium.
7 games is a must. I would agree for a best of 9 in final alone! Lengthier games show who is stronger and has more armory, stamina and mental fortitude. Olympics, WTTC and WC are best of 7 unlike WTT events. This 4 games method in this WC qualifying stage is no good, they can have a normal best of 5 here to have more players in WC which also helps reach the sport to more countries. I liked that top 6 Chinese were able to play unlike previous years where only 2 from a country or some rule was there. Top players deserve to play these big events.
Enhance the sport by hiring top players as commentators so that they can explain spin and all that serve had etc along with someone who is very enthusiastic. Look at how Fang Bo gives comments for matches(saw in Instagram), just wow. His insight is amazing and makes us understand how good Pro athletes are.
Show speeds and spin rpm as soon as the serve is done and for winners(it used to be there during replay, WTTC 2019!). So many sports have these machines to give you the stats. Reaction time is also a good metric. Better stats like points won on FH vs BH, winners vs unforced errors, on the table points vs winning lengthier rallies. Stupa is your sponsor for match analytics but you fail to show any good stats like other sports.
Highlight package is absolute garbage, it's like someone just blindly cut point by point. No slomo replays added in highlights package.
Improve the questions asked after the match. Look at other sports, they ask technical questions unlike always same thing how are you feeling? Lolz. For eg how did you adjust/tackle Lin Yun-Ju's flick, first game you were missing a lot. Second eg, we noticed you started giving the first attack to Fan in the WTTC 2019 final, why did you prefer that? Another eg, to Ma Long why did you switch your rubber side against Liang?
If good players turned analysts see and provide questions then viewership will increase instead of always same how are you feeling. Lolz.
Such an detailed comment .. I do agree to most of the problems you have mentioned .
Couldn't agree more. I hope this video blows up so more people can see and realize how bad this system is!
Im sharing it with my viewers too to try and bring it to light
@@Looeelooee thanks for your support 😊😊 Let's work together to make table tennis great again! 😁
@@goldentabletennis3910 yes!!
Thank you for the video. The changes implemented by WTT have been confusing and infuriating. You hit the nail on the head by pointing out that they made changes in things that don't matter. It is a real shame...
Another point; it's a great distraction for players who should thinking about the game, not the intricacies introduced by the 4 Games Format.
If ITTF keeps this up, table tennis will be a commercial fun game rather than a professional sport. These people on top don't even know what they're doing
It will continue to be a professional sport. Different format doesn't make it less valuable. Same stupid panic was forwarded when games changed from 21 points to 11.
It didn't reduce the attraction of the sport.
@@anujmchitale That's not a direct case to case comparison. While the system was 21 points back then and later 11 points, they still pick the player who won the most games as the winner. You certainly won't end up in a draw. And certainly would not have a 2 game system where player A winning first game 21-5 and player B winning second game 21-19 then pick player A as the winner just because player A have 40 points while player B only have 26. If you allow a third game to be played, player B might take that game and could even win it.
There has been many players over the years, not only in table tennis but other racket sports as well where you have the player who lost the first game miserably but manage to win thr next two game by narrow margins. Can be due to better stamina, mental game or strategy change.
If this is a club level league and they wanna use their own special rules that's up to them. But not for a world level event. Voicing out right now is just to let ITTF know that we don't want the system so they can stop using it.
@@pansarbobo7477 Stating and voicing out your preference is certainly alright.
But saying the sport won't remain good is quite an overreach.
The format was used for group stages, where questions of ties come up a lot.
@@anujmchitale First we gotta establish what "good" means. When we say it's no longer "good" doesn't mean the sport becomes completely unwatchable up to the point where one would unfollow the sport completely and turn off the TV anytime table tennis show up. Many would still tune in to watch table tennis even if they dislike some of the changes. Why? Because there's no reason to throw away a supposedly beautiful sport that is ruined by the federation to achieve their own goals. But just because somebody still continues to watch it, doesn't mean they agree that the sport is still as good as before.
For example the side camera angle. Many don't like it, but still a lot of people watch table tennis. Including those who disliked the angle. Why? Because top players are still involved, crazy points would still be played, and WTT is the major organizer of most events that happen throughout the year. Spectators have no choice. Sure some leagues or non WTT tournaments may show the match in the back view but those matches usually do not have all the top players. Even if there are top players, those leagues and events probably just make about 10-20% of the total tournaments a year.
Eventually people will stop complaining as they've gotten fed up but that doesn't mean they accepted the angle. They just feel like it's hopeless to shout the same thing over and over again knowing that the federation will not do anything to change things. While I agree with you that the sport couldn't possibly go extinct but popularity wise it will remain stagnant even if it doesn't go down. Meaning that what WTT & ITTF did was ineffective.
@@pansarbobo7477 Lot more people don't have issues with the side angle. The minority has issues.
Table tennis has become more popular after the rebranding.
Now people have conveniently forgotten how they would complain about the broadcast quality of tournaments under the ITTF banner.
Now suddenly the "old is gold" mentality takes root among a few, in order to complain about the current situation.
Citing one's preferences is totally fine. But stating the sport won't remain as good is an overreach. As I mentioned earlier.
In a competition, a winner is never about who started the match strong, but who is the first one to cross the finish line. You can start a match strong and destroy your opponent 11-0 but still lose the match if you cannot win the deciding set. Even if you had 5 match points in the last set but you didn't take it or allow your opponent to chase up and overtake you, you still lose. Rewatch WTT Star Contender European Summer Series Semi-Final between Ma Long and Wang Chuqin. Ma Long has more points than Wang Chuqin but he still lost because he didn't win as many as games as Wang Chuqin.
totally agreed. ITTF officials need to wake up.
I hated this system from day one! It's confusing, illogical and unconventional. I'm sure the players hate it and see no improvement. Just keep it simple so it's easy to understand. That's the beauty of most popular sports. If the rules are simple it's easier for people to understand and enjoy the game.
Honestly though, looking at points won makes absolutely zero sense. In theory that rule means if you win one of your sets 33:31 (rare case, admittedly) your chances of ranking higher in your group than an opponent with the same amount of sets won are much higher than if you win 11:0. So in that case performing better and winning 11:0 basically lowers your chances, what a flawless idea.
No, think first. The PTS won only matters in the game V the player you tied with, so it it's 33-31 then still only a 2pt difference
I think emrat mentioned that points over 11 did not count as points for or against. Not sure, though.
You are right, it makes no sense because that's not how it works. This video is spreading misinformation. In the event of a stalemate, so same total games won by two players (they ignore match points in this tournament), they then count the points ONLY in the match(es) between the (two) concerned players. It has nothing to do with total points, never did. It's just something a lot of people wrongly assumed, including the video creator here. Rule 3.7.5 which is referenced in the event rules is actually from the ITTF handbook and this is where the explanation comes from, which again this video fails to mention.
But obviously it goes without saying that ITTF royally fucked up. They failed to communicate the event rules effectively, not only to the audience but even to their own people who were responsible for the production of the event.
@@Unpiloted0922Can you please briefly explain because I'm getting confused now. From what I understand from the video, the reason why Harimoto moved on and not Groth because they both defeated Andrej 3-1, but during the Harimoto Vs Groth match, while it is a draw, Harimoto got 35 points whereas Groth only got 33. So Harimoto wins. Why this doesn't apply to Lim Joonghoon vs Anton since Lim got 43 but Anton only have 37, is because Anton win Izaac 4-0 while Lim only won 3-1. They prioritize games over points right? Or this is not how it works?
@@arfanaziz5072 Correct, games count first. Anton had more games won than Lim.
well, ITTF have made stupid changes even before this. The change of material and size of the ball. It may not be noticeable to national players, the ball is a lot slower for us normal players. Changed the ranking system so top players can't rest, because points expires, allow low rank players to move up just by playing. Confusion is not the problem. Top players can't conserve energy because they need to win by big margin. Why can't they allow to win with minimum energy? They need to play most of the matches in the tournament. And as you explained, even very low rank player can move ahead instead of a top rank player because of the game and point ratio.
The table is already small, and the camera is way too far, too high, even a big TV cannot see the ball.
Thanks for the detailed breakdown! You deserve more subs!
I strongly agree with you.
I will follow your next videos, it's great!
I interpreted clause 3.11 in a different. My understanding is that the ranking is determined "based solely on the ratio of wins to losses, first in games and then points"... In Groth's and Harimoto's case, the ratio of games is identical, so the rules looks at the ratio points, which gives the victory to Groth.
What am I getting wrong ?
ITTF was weird and counted point ratio for the match between jonathan groth and tomokazu harimoto. ITTF made a horrible ambiguous rule, and interpreted it in the worse way possible.
Being serious, what are points lost? I am confused with this concept. Does it mean the deficit in a lost game (i.e. I lose a game 7-11, so that is a 4 point deficit so I lost 4 points)? I just don't see how points can be lost other than maybe deducted because of a red card. Please help!
What a ridiculous 4 game system! ITTF should apologize to all the players and viewers.
Good video liked most of it, but gotta mention an error you had.
First off ties were not determined by points total. It was actually by points ratio between the two tied players in their match. I think this is absolutely stupid, as ITTF made it ambiguous and claimed it was meant to be this way, when it could also be taken as total point ratio counting all matches. Meaning, with the way ITTF "interpreted" their own rule, Tomokazu Harimoto would advance. But the other way would have Jonathan Groth advance. Obviously I would prefer this system to not have been used, but with it in place I think Jonathan Groth was the one who deserved to advance.
With that said, I do also think it's important to talk about the things I liked about this video.
1. You mentioned the side angle sucks. I absolutely agree, it was a huge fail. So much harder to see the ball, and they often have to zoom out or you can't even see a player hit the ball, when it they go farther back to hit the ball.
2. 4 game rule, dumb.... You're absolutely right about how there is too much pressure on every game. 3-1 vs 4-0 being different is a huge problem.
3. I like how you mention some players don't belong here. I saw some 4-0's etc, just pointless of having them here. Also like how you mention the 2-2 with top players and players who are not as good (not to say they are bad). Absolutely agree the 4 game thing is a mental challenge for the players.
4. Trolling because players can't win anymore. You're absolutely right. Dumb system, no chance at coming back here for a lot of players on their last match..... And it's honestly unfair to the other player who isn't playing (because they might have needed the player who is trolling to win the game to advance).
5. The match fixing is something I've never thought of. This kind of relates to what I talked about earlier. Absolutely possible.
6. I love how you mention Table tennis is at a disadvantage. Absolutely agree, small ball and high speeds make it hard to see. But it could also be an advantage, if the ITTF took care of camera quality, which would allow for spectators to see how much speed and spin are in the sport. ITTF be trolling the sport. Even the naming of the tournament is dumb. Why did they choose to call it "ITTF Men's and Women's World Cup Macao 2024?" Dumb name. Could have simplified to "ITTF World Cup 2024" with adding Macao being optional? No need to explain it's for both men's and women's? It makes the titles excessively long for no reason which can hurt viewer count as less people may want to click on it. Also gotta mention, why ITTF World this time? All of this was done on ITTF World and it makes no sense. Only 43.8k subs compared to the 935k on the World Table Tennis Channel. And I'm gonna have to be honest, IDK why the ITTF World channel even exists. What is the purpose of this channel?
Overall this video was quite solid. Love that you're bringing attention to the issues with such a horribly run tournament.
Thanks for the correction! I apologize for the oversight but I created this video in separate days and when I first started filming I didn't really understood the rule fully. But few days later as it goes deeper into the tournament and multiple explanations have been made, I finally understood and that's why I made the comparison between Harimoto/Groth and Kalberg/Lim Jonghoon. I completely forgotten that I've made the mistake and didn't proceed to re-record! 😅🙏. I'm glad you still enjoyed the video despite the error and I promised to do better in my future videos!! 🤗
The current World Table Tennis Channel was initially the original ITTF channel but since they introduced WTT, they changed the name of the channel to World Table Tennis. This tournament would not be shown on the WTT channel because this is not a WTT event. While WTT is technically under ITTF, they are in a way separate entities. I've checked and it seemed like the oldest videos on the ITTFWorlds channel was just two years ago. Means that it is newly created. I guess what they are trying to do is not to use the same channel for tournaments under different entities. For example WTT Events like Champions, Smashes, Star Contenders, Feeders would be broadcasted on WTT while other events like world cup, para events or regional ITTF tournaments would be broadcasted on ITTFWorlds. However, I find it very contradicting because they still broadcast the Individual World Championships and Team World Championships on WTT despite world championships being an ITTF event. So really, I don't know what ITTF & WTT are thinking.
They are mixing up their own products. However, one thing to highlight is while the ITTFWorld Channel has only about 43.8k subs, a week ago before the start of the world cup, they only have roughly 30k. Means that just by showing the world cup, the were about to gain more than 10k subs. I've also looked at the live view count during some of the match and peak times the highest views was 30k plus. This is higher than most WTT events peak view count, further showing how much a failure WTT is.
thanks for the clarification.
You've made my point clear
ITTF World and WTT are confusing
having both channels is overcomplicating things for viewers. People who may be subscribed to WTT for ITTF table tennis content might not know about the other channel and not realize that is an official ITTF affiliated youtube an be confused where the official ITTF World Cup UA-cam videos are.
@@CewbPianist Yes, you're right. Not only are the matches broadcasted on different channels, even the marketing are done on a different social medias. You cannot find any marketing about the world cup on WTT Instagram or Facebook. You have to go to the specific ITTF social media which many may not have followed.
Actually there is no reason for them to have a separate entity for the same sport. You don't see any other sport doing this. If they want to introduce new concepts like a better arena and new camera quality, they can easily do it under the same name of ITTF. Why is there a need to rebrand table tennis as WTT? Not to mentioned that WTT (World Table Tennis) is such a lazy name. It is literally same as World Table Tennis Championships but just removing the "Championships".
I'm fine with WTT, if they entirely rebranded to it. Stop having two names and confusing people....
People in charge of ITTF have never played table tennis, they just have a business vision.
yes, I agree with you
Total points won is a bad rule as 12-10 stands better than 11-0in that case.
Your comment makes no sense. You clearly do not understand the rule.
The points won will only matter in the event of two player being tied in the group. So, it's only the points in the match V the person you TIED WITH that will be looked at, in which case 11-0 is obviously far better that 12-10.
@@simsey33 lets say Player A and B tie. Player A won against player C 12-10 12-10 12-10 12-10 and player B won with sth like 11-4 11-5 11-6 11-5. Player B wins the group. Is that fair?
@@henkdetank7306 In that scenario player B only wins the group if he tied with Player A (2-2 in this case) and has a better point differential in their match. This video mentions Rule 3.7.5. What it fails to mention and show is that that rule comes from the ITTF handbook. Everything is explained there. Basically when there are two or more players with the same wins then you ONLY look at the matches between them. It has nothing to with the total points points tally across all matches.
@@Unpiloted0922 watch the video again, it never said total points mattered and the comparison between Jonathan Groth Versus Harimoto and Lim Jonghoon Versus Anton Kalberg was spot on. As mentioned by @henkdetank7306, his example will be very controversial if A VS B was a draw and they both had the same number of points won in the match surprisingly, then they will in fact compare who defeated C more convincingly. Which is stupid because B might have played C so many times that he is very familiar with C's playstyle so he can win with a better differential,, while A might be the first time playing C so he wins narrowly. But just because of that he that he loses the group? All these controversies could easily be avoided if they just allowed the damn 5th set to played. Then if you failed to win 3 games in a best out of 5 it's your own problem you can't blame no one. Even if a 3 players best of 5 group where player A win B 3-2 but lose to C 0-3, But player B beats Player C 3-0, player B still wins and in this case nobody can complain because all of you have a chance to fight for your own wins and losses. No subjectivity would be entertained in this matter.
they count the point same UFFA trophy football. win,score.head to head,and then calculate. in group 4 team, if your point is same other team.then go to check how many goals you win, if equal go to check both of you who win, if draw check score and away goals.
I totally agree with what you said🏓🏓🏓
The Group attempt making draws possible was exiting from my Point of view. Every set had its excitement. The case of Jonathan was Not good for sure.
It's exciting if you want to see the underdog player proceed to the next round because of a rigged system. This format invites that. If the match resulted in a 4-0 or 3-1 in this format you will still think it is boring. If both players are very similar in level, a 5th game can be exciting as well because rubber sets are always great to watch. Do you find players who simply hit the ball and play exhibition points because they know they are out of the tournament already to be exciting? No, because the outcome has already been predetermined even before the match ended but players continue to play because the format said that you need to continue to play.
Agreed 100%, they are destroying the game. Even the tournament schedule has became a mess, feeder, challenger, contender, star contender, smash, world thing, other world thing but different, slightly different other world thing! A former high level TT player should rule ITTF and stop the w*ke nonsense completely of which the latest 4 sets "let the weakest player be equal to the n°1 is the latest foly. Not to speak about the fancy colored little pony rubbers almost nobody uses.
Shitty ball, shitty format, some absolute bangers in the playoffs though… but still, many players donc get a chance to shine, some only played one strange game and a half
No way man...
This sistem is good for gambling 😅
what a pathetic sport. other sports never have this type of rubbish. i throw away all my bat quit this sport.
Exagerration. FIFA. NBA, NFL and MLB in the USA all have had scandals much worse.
Please don't, table tennis needs you! 🤣🤣🤣
I go invest in tennis without the table@@simsey33
Ittf and wtt make mistake. Best of 5 and 7 is the best and known well. Save table tennis.
ITTF is destroying the sport.
Ping pong is boring.. Too fast and not have long fight rallies occured..
4 game matches ???????????????????????? Just invites draws.
The Chinese are under the greatest pressure already - both from their nation and from themselves in the competition with other Chinese players. This explains why they often have a rather bad beginnings in matches. So, I would say that this is especially working against the Chinese players.
Who is Anton Shelburg? 😂
At the end of the day, the spectators are the best arbiters of the game. If they are confused and dissatisfied, and sense unfairness or manipulation, then toss out the nonsensical, laughable & farcical 4 Games Format. Don't interfere with our game.
STOPPED ASAP!
The rule is perfect for a grouo stage with 3 players in each group. EVERY POINT MATTERS. And EVERY GAME MATTERS, even the 4th one.
Everyone knows this beforehand.
Just because there was a stupid scoreboard calc error, that could happen regardless of the rules.
I honestly cannot see what the fuss is about. Play your 4 matches and play them hard! Thats it
Players knowing the rule beforehand is one thing. Agreeing with it is another thing. They were forced to accept it and many top players are in fact unhappy with it but do not have a say in it. Every match will be hard and all players will certainly give it their all. But playing hard doesn't mean you will win dominantly. Players can start the match badly but still win in the end with a odd game system. A player can also start good but still lose in the end. In a 5 game format, it doesn't matter if you win the first 2 games 11-0. If you let your opponent win the next 3 in deuced games. (E.g. 12-10, 12-10, 12-10), you still lose cuz you have less sets. You can have more points but that doesn't make you the winner. You could also be leading 10-4 with 6 match points but still lose cuz u let your opponent make a comeback.
You don’t understand the video and the stupid new rule, watch the video again and comment again.
No, I don't think the best of 4 format is good for the game and certainly not for the group stage. 11 point system is already short format. Best of five generally does not last more than 30 minutes so group stage should be best of 5, there should be a winner for each match rather than having a draw. And we are talking about sports like basketball or football here, those are team sport not individual sport, in individual sport there is no draw, no tennis match is completed when players split the two sets, same with badminton. squash or other individual sport.
Trash rule
Am I the only one who prefer the new camera angle?
Not exactly. There are still people who like it but are in the minority. Since you like it I really want to hear your thoughts on why that is the case. What makes you prefer the side angle than the old one?
@@pansarbobo7477 The old one "shrinks" the lenght of the table. The new camera angle allows for better appreciation of the lenght and height of the shots. And those are really important (to me)
@@theoschleifer6244 You're right. No angle is completely bad without a single good thing about it, even the back angle has its cons. The side angle does in fact allow us to better see the length and height of the ball but overall it diminishes the beauty of watching the sport for a lot of people. It might be a little more difficult to see length and height of the ball on back view but it is not completely unseeable. But with the side view, you really need to "focus" in order to see the "beauty" of table tennis.
@@pansarbobo7477 At this point it is a question of taste. But I think people will either learn to love it or wtt will come back to the back view
@@theoschleifer6244 Yes for 4 years people has been pressuring WTT to bring back the back view or at the very least introduce the 45 degree angle. It's apparent that WTT is listening, they have been showing us the 45 angle for feeder events as well as in bigger events like the smashes or star contender for every table except table 1. I think it is just a matter of time until they remove the side completely.
You canmot just say that because a player wins convincingly that he is a better player 😂 dude come on, have you listened to yourself.
Its not about who's the 'better' player, otherwise just give everything to thf world no. 1.
Its about who wins the modt points, get it???
Even the world number 1 lost so what do you mean just give him everything?? Nobody has issue losing 2-3 in game best of 5 or 3-4 in best of 7 but why allow a damn draw? If points is so important in table tennis then just scrap the whole game system. Turn table tennis into a timed matche like basketball and football then see who can win more points under 1 hour.
If the rule is clearly stated and clarified before the tournament then why are you complaining about it? Showing Groth as the winner was obviously just a mistake. Even though both players knew the rules you still say early on that the players have fallen victim of it but the clearly have not. Get it straight dude, this is a rubbish video
So are you going to compensate for Jonathan Groth's destroyed mental health? It doesn't matter if rules are set early on because many players were eliminated from the tournament because of a stupid system that doesn't allow a player to fight for a win. Mima Ito has already fallen victim of such a dumb system so as Lim Jonghoon.
@@dynasty6668 I think the Groth mental statement about mental health was a bit millennial, but the rules seemed confusing in the beginning. Nobody seemed to know what was what.
@@dynasty6668 😂😂😂😂😂 destroyed mental health, you're some daffodil. He's a professional athlete who knows the rules. You're just a drama queen making a huge deal out of a scoreboard error. I think everyone is disappointed when they lose, that's it!
@@dynasty6668 Whether you like the rule or not is another matter entirely. If you bothered to explore the positives of it it means that every point in every game is meaningful and it also means more games. It's just your opinion you blabbering dude and it's really not that important. I hope you mental health can handle such a statement 😭
@@simsey33 You need not worry about my mental health dude as its completely fine but on the other hand you really need to have yours checked because you are so mentally unstable that you need to drop multiple comments just to shame the video and others. Its not just my opinion and I'm not the one blabbering. 99% of people, the fans, sports enthusiast and even the players themselves dislike the rule. If anything, you are the one blabbering not me, you're the one that's not important.