H&K P7 Family: Pistols for Gun Cognoscenti
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- Опубліковано 26 лип 2024
- / forgottenweapons
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Developed in the 1980s in response to a need for new West German police sidearms, the H&K P7 is one of the most mechanically unusual pistols to have been commercially successful in recent decades. It incorporates a number of features which are rather polarizing; brilliantly innovative to some, and pointlessly unproductive in the eyes of others.
The biggest innovation H&K made in the P7 was the squeeze-cocking system. The front strap of the pistol must be depressed (with a substantial amount of force) in order to fire. This action acts to cock the striker back to its full travel, and when the front strap is release, the striker is dropped completely forward. As a result, there is no chance of a discharge, and could potentially happen on a traditional striker-fired gun which keeps the striker partially cocked at all times. The P7's system also allows it to have a better trigger press by not using the trigger to retract the striker.
For the action, H&K chose a gas-delayed blowback system. This system has been used in a few other places (Heritage Stealth, Norinco M77B, etc), but it not at all common. Basically gas pressure acts on a piston under the barrel to hold the slide closed until the bullet has left the barrel. This system allows the gun to have a fixed barrel, contributing to very good inherent accuracy.
The downsides to the P7 are its tendency to rapidly heat up (because of that gas piston), its unfamiliar manual of arms, and its low magazine capacity. Whether it's a wonderful sleeper of a pistol design or just some German nonsense it up to you...
Note: In future videos, I will cover some of the other non-standard branches of the P7 family, including the P7M7, P7M10, P7A13, and P7K3.
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
PO Box 87647
Tucson, AZ 85754
H&K's grey room looks like the loadout stage before you enter the matrix.
Probably an equal amount of MP5Ks.
@BEST It was so funny when Keanu said that exact line in John Wick.
Well they are a Gun factory
About the time the P7 went out of production, I had the good luck to fire a P7M8 at an "open range day" event where manufacturer's reps brought all kinds of weapons, one just needed to pay for ammunition and targets on site (Bill's guns and range, Robbinsdale MN).
I had heard of the squeeze cockers but never seen one in person. So I asked the HK rep about the P7, he looked depressed and said he wasn't supposed to let people shoot it. He didn't tell me then, but his boss wanted to sell everyone on the newer USP line. A while later, his boss went to lunch and I asked again. The guy let me take it on the range...
First shots: I set a bullseye target at 21', loaded 5 rounds, punched out the center of a target with a clover leaf. STUNNED DISBELIEF.
Second magazine: Same thing happened.
Third mag, I set the target at 25 yards (max range for Bill's indoor range). Group opened up, of course. But all were in the black still. THIS SHOOTS BETTER THAN MY TARGET 1911!
Took the P7 back to the table with the targets I had center punched, VERY pumped. Thinking I NEED TO GET ME ONE OF THESE! But the boss was back from lunch... And I was discouraged by him from getting my own P7?! Told he couldn't sell me one, would not sell the sample, could not order one from H&K for me or order one for Bill's to sell me either! WTF?! Offered them the targets for table "eye candy", was rudely told they were not wanted. Also, the guy who let me fire the pistol was quietly yelled at.
Upshot: Bought a very lightly used P7M8 from someone at a gun show a while later. H&K rep lost a new gun sale. Got 4 spare H&K factory magazines before the price went through the roof too.
No one gets this pistol until I'm dead.
Bert2368 haha HK elitism at its finest. They can’t get out of their own way sometimes.
@Bert2368..
..that can be arranged
- Don Vito Corleone
@@manfredrichthofen2494 😂
Cool story, no regrets reading here.
Why I could never do sales, I'd always be that guy getting yelled at! Cheers to him for making the world a better place and sticking with the golden rule.
I love them too
“I’m going to count to three; there will not be a four.”
Hans Gruber
"Oh, yeah. What was it you said to me before? Yippee-kai-yay, motherfucker".
Peter Krieg will have his revenge
"Mr Takagi will not be joining us for the rest of his life."
I thought I recognized this pistol!
ultrablue2 I was waiting for that quote lol
When you say three mister, you will never hear the man count ten - John Wayne
“I could talk about industrialisation and men's fashion all day but I'm afraid work must intrude.”
I see you are man of culture.
@@Taistelukalkkuna Jessus mikä nimi.
“After all your posturing, you’re nothing more than a common thief”
@@ultrablue2 "I am an *exceptional* thief, Mrs McClane. And since I'm moving up to kidnapping, you should be more polite."
Adam Halsey now I have a machine gun HO HO HO
"An elegant weapon, for a more civilised age."
This is an age of mass-paranoia, with resulting nastiness and accusations toward all. So it is time for Military Intelligence to list my Weapon's Research and Development referenced material as being tactically insignificant, while bureaucrats do scream. Let their microphones cut out and a strange glow appear with image pixelation. This is a Legacy Technology Base, likened to Black-Powder, with those in the know of Black Projects, not believing it to be still used.
So where is the real individual, a relation of the individual to the weapon's technology happens? At times both the apparent illusion and the real are both verified as present but in a different context, each is real. In this age, a group of extremists is listing this technology as being entirely harmless, along with their verified involvement, leading to future planned disappearing. I have not revealed exactly the Federal Intelligence Organization integration of this technology to my enemies, because, in this uncivilized age, this uncivilized group needs forced Acquired-Federal-Intelligence-Asset-Status. These history lessons can be refreshing.
@@brentpieczynski schizo moment
whoever can re-make these guns will win a large segment of the ccw market, and perhaps even undercover or police duty. 4 inch barrel with a 3 inch profile, its the size of the glock 43x but has the benefits of fullsize capacity, accuracy, and handling. has very intuitive and effective safety. the only problem is the heat shielding. a change to the channel and gas tube geometry and location will fix that. ceramic heatshield as well. i will become a billionaire if i make this gun for large scale production
"That's a very nice suit Mr. Takagi. It would be a shame to ruin it."
These comments are awesome
@Kali Southpaw "Hehehehehe! Who said we were terrorists?"
The Squeeze cock P7 was one of the best pistols ever made. The feel in the hand felt like an extension of my body. It was razor sharp accurate, incredibly safe, and highly reliable. I must have shot 20,000 rounds and never a malfunction. The German’s made one fine pistol when they made the P7.
And then H&K f*d up selling it. "It's too good for you. What you really want is a USP." $%)$*^!
@@iDuckman Just wondering why you think I sold it? Take care Dennis.
@@graycloud057 No, not you. H&K. They had a good thing and decided to push potential buyers to something else. [edited it to be more clear]
@@RonJohn63 Haha. Not all those rounds at once. Cheers.
@@iDuckman I see. Thanks. 👍🏼
When I was a kid, I dreamt of owning one. When they discontinued these, I was heartbroken. They sold for like $400 at the time. I used my first paycheck to buy one for that price then.
@@SwampOperator I got one for $425 during AIT
Oh dear, my carry gun is on Forgotten Weapons, time to start rethinking some stuff I guess.
Wauser Oh yes, time to get a new carry gun. I can take that old one off your hands for you.....
Mine too
Trade ya my gen 1 glock 17 for it
Is it you Hans?
Oh you poor soul, I can take that relic of yours if you feel like coming into the modern world.
I had a P7 and absolutely loved it. Comfortable to shoot, very accurate, and safe as brick houses. Also relatively flat and compact so a shoulder rig didn't bulge much. Loved the heel release, too. I wish I'd never sold it, but I really needed the $$. Now I'll never be able to replace it. :-(
German state police agency:
"the HK is the clear winner"
*Looks at price tag*
"Look how slick these other ones are, though"
I've never related to a police agency more in my life 😂
Now freaky friday this into military adoption of a pistol:
SIG SAUER: "We are way cheaper than fixing the Berettas".
Beretta: "We can't even fix them for that."
US Military: "That looks good, I'll pay that with my credit card."
Ka-ching! 6 times the price. It's like Sig is building the Elbphilharmonie.
As usual, the Bavarians are the only true Germans. Choosing the over engineered fancy one.
Deutsche qualitat
Hk prices depress me
@@Fabrizio_Ruffo Or maybe the Bavarian police are the only ones who have enough money.
@@Fabrizio_Ruffo Bavarian's are austrians and the real germany died more than a century ago.
A little history on some US H&K’s. NJSP originally adopted the P7M8 in 1983 and it remained their standard issue sidearm until the early 2000’s when it was briefly replaced by the Smith and Wesson Model 99 and then later the Sig Sauer P228. This change was spurred both by aging of the department’s pistols as well as the murder of Trooper Scott Gonzales in 1997. Trooper Gonzales was executed at point blank range with a shotgun while entrapped in his vehicle after his P7 suffered from a broken firing pin spring and was rendered inoperable. There were supposed instances of Trooper’s lives being saved after they were disarmed of their sidearms but the suspects were unable to make the weapon fire due to unfamiliarity with the squeeze cocker. Great video as always Ian!
*Edited for spelling
SCOTT M. GONZALEZ
Trooper Gonzalez of the New Jersey State Police was shot and killed at 1725 hours while chasing a burglary suspect in Independence Township. Trooper Gonzalez spotted a pickup truck that fit the description of a vehicle used in a robbery a few hours earlier. He called in for assistance and began to pursue the truck which sped up in an attempt to escape.
The driver of the truck pulled into a dead end road and Trooper Gonzalez pulled in behind him, blocking his exit. The suspect abruptly made a U-turn and rammed Trooper Gonzalez's patrol car. The impact caused the patrol car's airbag to deploy, momentarily dazing him. It also jammed the doors closed, trapping Trooper Gonzalez inside of the patrol car. The suspect then exited his truck and shot Trooper Gonzalez multiple times with a shotgun while he was still in his patrol car. The fatal shot struck Trooper Gonzalez in the head from less than five feet away.
Trooper Gonzalez was able to return fire and shot at the suspect seven times from inside of the patrol car but was unable to strike the suspect. The suspect then tried to flee again but was stopped by other officers. The suspect again exited his vehicle but accidentally discharged his shotgun and shot himself in the head, killing himself.
Trooper Gonzalez had been with the agency for five years and was survived by his wife.
@@datrakker Thank you for this information
Yeah, I've got one of these and in my research I was surprised to find that info on the NJSP
@@datrakker thanks for this
"This pistol is sufficient for our requirements." -germans
"Zat vill be adekvate. I vill zecure zis area."
@@ZGryphon
Is that Z in your account name for the same reason.
Zank you for trewelling wiz deutsche Bahn.
@@ZGryphon Is this Gunther Hermann from Deus Ex lol
@@gergoantal1066 I believe it is, yes.
@@onpsxmember No, it's there because just "gryphon" was taken on an IRC server circa 1993. :)
Ian please stay in the Grey Room and make videos on all H&K guns they have xD
I expect that we will be seeing stuff from the Greyroom for the next year or so, so no need to panic 😅
I bet they had to drag him out from that room, or lure him out from with a nice cool French 75.
Was issued/carried a P7 M13 with US Park Police (1990s). Very accurate and reliable. Care was needed to keep carbon clean around gas tube area - a special cleaning tool was issued. Great for duty and off-duty carry.
I thought the exchange rate of the German mark and US dollar was why it went up in price. Actually all HK products. I was in Germany in 1983 and it was 3 marks to the dollar. It went almost one to one in the 90's.
I thought "squeeze cocking" is just what I do everyday after work until I watched this video
That's funny, I partook in some squeeze cocking when I saw the thumbnail
I really wish H&K would build a new generation of P7 pistols. Polymer frames could potentially reduce the heat transfer and the weight, which is another issue a lot of people complain about today when you suggest a P7 for concealed carry. Plus it would probably be a lot cheaper, although still more than the P30.
> Cognoscenti
Much appreciated!
What does it mean? Which language is it?
@@baphtomet you can kinda work it out from its parts
@@wierdalien1 You're asking a lot from someone that couldn't be bothered to look up a word, even when he's already using a computer.
@@Nyowa225 mean yeah but you dont have to aggressive about it when passive aggressive will do
@@wierdalien1 That is the greatest line I've ever read.
So I guess HK is sorta like Knights Armament or Daniel Defense. Their marketing slogan might as well be “just be glad we let you buy them at this price, peasants.”
I am a masochist, my blood is HK red.
"We are HK, You WILL buy our products. Because you suck, and we hate you."
Lmao the only Daniel Defense gun I've ever shot jammed at least once per every 10 rounds for the first couple hundred or so rounds. It was one of their AR15s. I don't think it's a jam-o-matic anymore, but that was ridiculous
Will never forget the time I (in full uniform) tried to casually talk shop to an actual German HK rep at the annual AUSA show in Washington DC. I was there because of I was an armorer and involved with some of the ongoing XM8 trials and wanted to pick his brain a bit. He took one look at my rank (E-5), announced in a heavy German accent "I'm sorry, we're not here for civilians", turned on his heel and walked away. This was after Ronnie Barrett took a signed picture with me (and signed a .50BMG case for me) and the FN USA people gave me a silver tie tack in the shape of an M240. Message received, HK.
I'm honestly somewhat offended you put HK and KAC on the same level as DD. Replace DD with LMT and I'd 100% agree
*sees the all-in-1 squeeze cocker/grip safety*
that's absolutely impressive
*sees different angles of grip and magazine*
how German is that??
You should feel the trigger. I've fired several pistols and use this one on a regular basis. Most pistols have an attrociously heavy trigger pull, while the P7 M8/M13 has a wonderful featherlight pull. What Gun Jesus didn't mention is that the P7 has a very stiff spring in it - which makes the loading and disassemply a bit difficult if you don't have the strenght, but lets you shoot the gun INCREADIBLY FAST. You can fill a bad guy with lead faster than he can pull his gun out. No stupid fiddling around with safety, no heavy trigger pull etc makes this an exceptionally great gun for someone with weak fingers (like me).
Also - it really is very accurate.
Great weapon
The grip angle is perfect, the magazine angle is perfect, why should they be the same?
Also, they are very accurate. Like the P7 aims itself.
During a World Shoot, I saw a German cop firing a P13. He shot it extremely well, both fast and accurate. Recoil control was very easy due to the configuration of the gun, very little muzzle flip. I don't see heating as a problem as you never go over 70+ rounds in an IPSIC match
I came close to buying one a few times in the mid 90s. Never did as I leaned towards higher cap mags and I didn’t like the feel of the P7 M13 when I shot it (and it was even more $$ than the M8 and I was in my 20s trying to pay regular bills lol.
…And kicked myself for years.
I scored a LE return in great condition for about $750 about 15 years ago and it’s one of my favorite firearms. So easy to shoot, accurate AF and a total work of art. Added wooden grips. Just stunning. One of my favorite firearms.
Chatted about it today at the range w a new friend and will be bringing it for him to shoot next week.
It would be awesome if Hk could bring back a modern version o the P7 today. Really an great design.
“Shut up and take my money!”
The heck with a modern version. The original P7, heel release and all, was perfect.
Do it in .45, sell it with a can.
@@BlackSoap361 If they were to up-caliber it, I'd prefer .40 S&W,
@@iDuckman there was a .40 version made.
A .45ACP version, all ammo would be subsonic.
Lol you can hear the HK engineers roll their eyes when we get to the additional safety trigger part.
"What, the gun is safe, why do they need *another* safety mechanism? UGH, fine, put something these kids can push forward and backward on it."
My brother was a police officer in Tonawanda, N.Y., he was a gun perfectionist and personally carried this weapon. He carried a Colt Python , on duty. When he died he left me this gun P7M8. I did not know what a great gun I had. I did my research and found out. I keep it clean & carry it at all times. Love it.
US park police used P7 variants for a long time. All the way until about 2010 or so when replacement parts became to scarce to maintain the guns
Manual safety on a P7. Squeeze cocking system: "Am I a joke to you?"
This is real stuff. Though it´s a rumor I heard, Finnish Defense Forces were looking to replace M80(aka HP-DA), and Glock was mentioned......
But it had to have external safety.
@@logitimate Leonard Cormomaz I hear you. The thing I talked about was maybe 20 years ago. And the shooting yourself is a thing. Some tactical dude whom I shall not name, shot himself in some demonstration. Video is lost to ages, but it was quite talk at time.
More like ‘u wot m8’
Actually a high ranking and gun connoiseur spanish policeman (policía nacional) shot himself dead in front of his wife demonstrating how safe it was. This incident ended all possibilities fo having this gun adopted not even in small numbers.
@@miguelangelsimonfernandez5498 sounds like he was just high ranked on the list of idiots. No gun is safe to the extreme that you could aim it at yourself and pull the trigger. Anyone willing to take that risk is an idiot.
Absolutely the best handgun I have ever shot before...the P7 is phenomenal !
As part of this gun's history you failed to mention it's role in the 1988 Christmas eve, armed robbery and hostage crisis at Nakatomi tower in Los Angeles; where this gun was used to execute 2 hostages.
Ser Garlan Tyrell I read this comment to the wife. It got an eye roll lol But so did me calling it the “Squeeze Cocker.” Lol
Note: Bad Guys prefer to carry the Satin Nickle model... ;)
www.imfdb.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_P7_pistol_series
Ser Garlan Tyrell HOW? How in the world did he get through this video without mentioning Hans Gruber? I’m disappointed.
Few know the whole movie was intended to compare Beretta to H&K...
@GGALLIN1776 that was Die Hard 2
Ian, very well done, step by step clear dissertation. I bought my M8 in 1986 for a whopping $489 as the shop I worked at was also a wholesaler. When the prices climbed well into four figures, between $1500-2000, & magazine prices of sixty apiece, they did get big for their britches, unnecessarily so.
Thank you.
Hans Gruber’s pistol, no?
Yup.
Die Hard, Heheh
Sure thing, only the best, for Him and his man.
Fun fact: to get the surprised expression on Alan Rickman's (Hans Gruber) face at the end of the movie, the didn't drop him not at "3", as they told him before, they dropped him on an airbag 25 feet (10 m) below on "1". Hence the priceless face. Bye Hans. RIP Alan, you were a magnificent actor! (Ever seen "Snow Cake" - hilarious!)
If I remember correctly he had the p7m13.
I love the P7 series. I own a few some purchased and some inherited. I have a nickel P7M13 and a standard one, a P7M8 a PSP and a P7K3 with all 3 caliber kits 22LR,32acp and 380acp. I Love H&K firearms. My ccw is a P9S-45. I bought the P7M13 in nickel because of Die Hard. I had a P7M10 in 40S&W but was made an offer I couldnt refuse by a hardcore collector that had to have it and had money to burn,lol.
Look at Richie Rich here.
I love those cutaways!
The HK P7 is simply one of the greatest handguns ever made. It is a work of art and brilliant to shoot. I can't imagine what this firearm will be worth in the future.
"That's a very nice suit, Mr. Takagi. Would be a shame to ruin it ..."
Just a hypothesis, but maybe HK made the P7 squeeze-fireable as an early winter trigger fix? You could jam your gloved finger into the trigger guard and squeeze like a madman.
imagine you're in a hurry to fire. You have to do two things: squeeze the grip and pull the trigger. Humans are very bad at doing two things *very quickly* and still maintaining an order, a close timing between them. You'll end up every once in a while pulling the trigger before you have completed the squeeze. H&K didn't want that to be an issue, and rightly so.
Also, if you forgot to wear your gloves, it has a built-in finger warmer.
It's probably not an intentional thing. More often than not "features" of a gun were never intended to happen. They probably never even tried to see what would happen if you pulled the trigger, then cocked the gun.
Yeah probably not intentional, kinda like the 1897 Winchester' s slam-fire ability. It's more than likely a happy accident, but engineering quirks like that make my imagination run wild trying to figure out uses.
@@AlexN2022 it still fires if you end up going trigger first though.
H&K grey room associate: What guns you want to review from the grey room Ian?
Ian: Yes
H&K: Äääähm, oookay... how much time do you think you'll need?
Ian: Yes
Yes
Yes
American market “yea the grip safety on 1911s and browning guns are great! You could could sleep with one cocked and locked under your pillow”.... also American market “noooo the squeeze cocking on the P7 is toooo much for us”..
my absolute favorite pistol ever, I been asking for this, thank you so much
Hey Ian, greetings from Germany 🇩🇪. You make so much fantastisc content, I'm starting to feel like I need to start paying you for watching these vids because they are absolutely fantastic and informative. 😂 I'm not well situated at the moment, but in the future I will definitely subscribe to to your Patreon. Thanks alot for these great vids, and keep living the dream! 🖐️🖐️🖐️🖐️
Star Trek forever!
Selbst wenn man die Waffen selbst kennt und benutzt sind Ian's Videos darüber einfach nur super unterhaltsam und informativ. Ich freue mich auch über jedes einzelne, wenn es in meiner Timeline auftaucht :-)
Schade dass Deutsche Waffengesetze so streng sind...
@@Zlatko815 Wer am Thema Sportschießen ernsthaftes Interesse hat, kann auch in Deutschland viel machen. Klar, unsere Regeln sind undursichtig und teilweise auch einfach nur lächerlich (Hülsenlänge, Schalldämpfer...) - aber auch bei uns geht es (noch), dieses Thema im sportlichen Wettkampf zu erfahren...
I do... I already raised the amount once and I was thinking about raising it again.
H&K needs to design and produce a new and improved squeeze cocker. They would sell like hot cakes. They could save lots of money and weight by using polymer.
P7 m13s on the used market are just too pricey to justify the expense.
Soap Maker it’s such a neat design. Several things all solved by a single feature.
Having gotten to handle oney, they're actually REALLY comfortable to handle, and operate.
Are they so expensive? I just checked it, on Egun you can get one for about 700 to 3000 Euro, based on the condition... That's quite pricy, but the cheapest model seems to shoot fine, it just has only one mag an user optic... That's not SO bad after all...
P7 M13s are ~$1300 and up in the states, and the mags go for hundreds...
@@erebostd yes they're pretty expensive. The cheaper ones tend to have a lot of wear on the finish, and may need some new springs. They'll shoot just fine though. The nice ones can get quite expensive, because obviously people are collecting them. Just kinda depends on what you want. Obviously a nickel plated p7m13 is going to be quite a bit more expensive than a run of the mill p7. Also magazines for the p7m13 are very expensive. About $200 US per magazine
I bought my P7 in 1981 and used it as my EDC until I replaced it with a Sig P365. It is now honorably retired as a safe queen; enjoying a well earned retirement.
How do you like the P365? I tried one but it was too small in my hand. I'm thinking of getting the new Canik MC9.
8:08 I heard somewhere that there were issues with negligent discharges from officers holding down the trigger before pulling the paddle on the front of the grip without realising that would fire the gun
That seems too stupid for words, but then again, there's a reason it's so hard to make things 'idiot proof'.
More grey room. Great!
*greyt
I still have my P7M8, blued, and the original box and all papers. I bought it new in 1993. It is absolutely a fun gun to shoot and I used to carry it whenever I had more than a little cash on me or had banking to do. Only time I ever really had any issue was once when I used it to renew my CHL, and the renew included a firing re-qual. 50 rds must be fired for a passing grade. Altho I passed easily because the weapon is so laser-accurate, it did get quite hot there at the end, even tho mine has the little plastic finger guard within the trigger guard. I did put a set of really nice walnut Nils grips on it eventually. Still has no wear, not a single blemish, and works like a champ! Last I looked in the Blue Book it is now worth at least $4,000, compared to the $900 I paid in 1993. Not a bad investment! I know for awhile the M13’s were of more demand but that has changed and M8’s are about equal in value. I’ll save mine for my son.
My dad was given a P7M13 for a service pistol at his police department in 1990 and they carried them for roughly 10 years before switching to the Glock 21, he said the department mentioned that the P7's were getting too expensive to service, and then they were tucked away in the armory. Some time after they were tucked away, they had the opportunity to buy their P7 from the department for a dollar. My dad gave me his M13 as a birthday present and it'll be a handgun that will be with me until the end, since it has that special sentimental value, and that it shoots great. I think that the laser department engraving on it and the mags definitely adds a cool factor to it!
How lucky you are my friend
I have P7 M8, my Dad gave it to me, when I got my first apartment while in my 2nd year at college. This was back in 1983 and I still have it. My Dad was a collector and I was the only of the kids who got into collecting. The 1980's was a good time for firearms...I picked up a HK 93 and 94, a FAMAS, as well as two FN-FNC. To this day still have these firearms and some other cool pieces too. Next purchase a CZ Bren 2, will get two of them...1 with a 14.5" barrel and an 11" barrel. I will pin and weld the 14'5" barrel and then put a stock on it without having to SBR it. for the 11" barrel will initially put a brace on it. But if it looks stupid or doesn't shoot well, then I'll SBR that model.
Been waiting on this one for a long time!
Man I love this channel thank you for the great content I always learn something new
I am here for the same reason.^^
Personally, I like to see all those neat little ideas and features, how they balanced all the advantages and disadvantages. :)
So creative and clever, those engineers^^
@@TodayLifeIsGoood I totally agree with you it great to see the history of firearms
I live in Bavaria and in about 2004 we visited our police station with my kindergarden. When one of the officers showed me his handgun, the rather strange proportions and the red dot on the backside of it stuck with me until I saw this video today. This was such a cool flashback.
I learnt to shoot with an H&K P7 when i was 12. It was a fantastic firearm, and extremely accurate. This video brings back great memories.
Wow the cut away gun is amazing. Wish they had this for some of the other firearms you have looked at.
Greyroom? More like forgotten weapons all you can film buffet. Great video as always!
Thanks so much for this video! A lot of us remain very fascinated by the P7 and love learning every bit of trivia we can.
I've gotta say that these Hk videos are outstanding. I could watch these videos all day. If you could get this kind of access to some of the other gun makers' collections, that'd be a great series of videos. Keep up the great work brother.
Such a beautiful pistol, both aesthetically and mechanically!
There is also a manual slide lock...to lock the slide back without a magazine inserted...it's just behind the trigger on the left side...it is flush with the frame...surprised Ian didn't mention it.
Fortunately I scrolled down this far on the comments before double posting this issue. I am surprised too. It seems, the M8 also features this manual slide lock above the modified magazin release.
@@j.h.2313 Ditto. I was going to comment, too, but also managed to scroll down to Mr. Krause’s comment. Terrific video. My P7M13 is my off-duty carry and by far, my favorite gun
I'm not really into guns but this guy makes everything so informative and interesting I can't stop seeing his videos? Well I do own guns but just for personal protection and now want more.
Walther P99 deserves a 5-10 minute video because of what you mentioned regarding partially cocked strikers and not so great triggers. Walther’s “Anti-Stress” trigger is a very good, unique and largely forgotten about stateside. What makes it great is the striker is fully cocked so the trigger pull is simply releasing the sear. It also had to be designed in a way that did not infringe on Glock patents. In 1997 (and currently), I would take a P99 all day long over a Glock. Superior ergonomics, outstanding trigger, and it is a more reliable and durable pistol. Yes, I said it. It also maintains a very simple design for complete disassembly and reassembly.
Hey, it's Hans Gruber personal gun in Die Hard!
This pistol has been my fav for a long time. Pricey taste I know.
Still fav
Wow Thank you for your amazing videos. They are both comprehensive and informative. I’ve been an HK fan since my teens and just now bought my first one at 31 (VP9SK)after a few glocks and a Steyr . I always learn something new from you and am always excited when I get a notification for your next video.
First, congratulations for the documentary quality of this channel. Without being an enthusiast of history of weapons, these presentations are a treat to watch. Very interesting how the design of weapons sheds light on the philosophy of countries or cultures that develop them.
Just a word on the P7: I bought an original P7 (not M8) a few months ago (which does not have the heat protection on the trigger guard). I now only take this one to the range. It largely rivals a P210 in terms of accuracy. And to shoot with it every week (between 1 and 2 boxes of 50) at a normal pace, I did not particulary feel the heat. Perhaps on the occasion of rapid and successive shots?... I will try.
that delayed blowback system is just beautifully elegant.
I wonder if carbon fibre would solve the hot trigger area. These are cool pistols that should be still made.
The pistol is already costly, adding carbon fiber would increase the cost significantly.
I've fallen in love with this gun now. Thank you so much Ian.
Our Department issued this gun (P7M13) from about 1993 to about 2005. A very safe gun, totally ambidextrous. When the squeeze cocker is not engaged the gun will not fire. If you had someone at gunpoint disengage the squeeze cocker and no AD’s. Something happens squeeze the cocker and the gun is good to go. All shots are SA because of the squeeze cocker. No DA/SA trigger pull issues. Very accurate as the barrel is fixed. It took about 12 lbs pressure to pull the squeeze cocking mechanism but only 3 or 4 lbs to hold it. Officers lives were saved when the guns were taken away and the perp did not know how to use the weapon.
Love the gun, bought a electroless nickeled P7 PSP after basic training in 83'. Super accurate and shootable pistol.
Gun Jesus>Coffee in the AM
Austin Green you need better coffee
I picked up a P7M13 that came in the factory green Tupperware-like plastic case with the original end label on it, all factory documentation, factory cleaning kit and three original magazines.
I've only shot one magazine of quality standard pressure FMJ through it and it functioned flawlessly and is very accurate. Cleaned it well, lightly lubed it and then put it in the safe. Matter of fact it still has the original factory wax paper sheet that rests on top of the gun to shield it from the inner plastic lid. I plan to pick up a few more as I find the right ones...
Bought it on GunBroker for $2,800 about 5-6 years ago. Definitely a keeper!!! 👍
My dad was talking about using these in service here in the good ol USA, he said they were great, glad I found the information I was looking for here on my favorite channel. thanks Ian, you never let us down.
One important thing here: When you are talking about German "State Police", you are not talking about what in the US would be the State Troopers or anything, you are talking about the entire Police Force in one federal state, since in Germany the police is governed by the federal states, not individual cities or counties. I just thought i'd point that out.
Yes but doesn’t that also mean that US state troopers are the exact same as the German ones. Because people don’t refer to city cops or county cops as ‘state troopers’ in America those are the cops designated to an entire federal state also ie. Massachusetts, Arizona, New Jersey etc. Cops for a city are just called city cops or specifically to their city department eg. SFPD, NYPD. County cops are just for one county in a state eg. Vallejo county, California.
@@dylanmorgan2752 No, that's what i mean. Imagine ALL cops that work in California were state troopers. Doesn't matter if they are traffic cops in San Francisco or SWAT in LA. That's how it is in Germany. The only exception are Federal Agencies. So the Bavarian State Police that Ian is talking about means ALL cops in Bavaria (minus some Feds). Germany doesn't have anything like the LAPD. There is no Munich Police Force, etc.
@@johannesdolch You're mostly correct. Generally, german police is divided into federal police forces, and state law enforcement. There are notable exceptions though: For one, the Bundestag (german parliament) has its own police force that is not part of federal or state police. Also, there is one particular exception, where we do have a local police force: Frankfurt has its own, local city police. It is not part of state or federal police either, it could even be compared to local police departments stateside, just in smaller role.
Frankfurt does not have its own local city police. No german city does. There is the BKA, the Bundespolizei and the Bundestag's small police force on the federal level and then the 16 police forces and LKAs on the state level. That's it. The last local police forces in Germany (Munich, Stuttgart) were integrated into their respective state police forces in the 1970s.
Frankfurt's "Stadtpolizei" is part of the Ordnungsamt. And if you count that as a police force, you also have to count the forces in other cities in Hessen (Darmstadt, Offenbach, Wiesbaden, ...) and the "Polizeibehörden" in Baden-Württemberg and Saxony. Which means Frankfurt is not a "particular exception".
Such a great pistol to hold and operate. It's truly a shame the concept was never widely adopted. On a side note, the new Alien pistol from Laugo adopted a similar delayed blow back action.
You ate most professional in your in depth reviews of arms. Your análisis of the Heckler P7 family was extraordinary. Keep it up!
the h&k p7 family is so innovative and it should have been the future of pistols and the next evolution of the striker fire action. maybe people will recognize it down the line and its great potential. with the grip safety (squeeze cocker) you have maximum safety and now can lighten the trigger to single-action levels and you have a striker indicator similar to an external hammer. plus the squeeze removes the need for an external slide release which reduces more external controls on the system, which was a big selling point of the striker action. basically have the best of all worlds.
I'd like to see HK license the design to some enthusiast who wants to bring the gun back to market. The only thing is that you never know how well some independent entity would do it, and that's probably why they never will want to share the idea. Might as well just tear one down and build it without permission like the way Canik did with the P99.
I guess / hope there is a vid on the UCP coming? I know it's basically a USP in MP7 caliber, but I want to see it.
You didn’t cover the beautiful true polygon barrel? That’s my favorite part
I would like to thank Ian for teaching me a new word, ...and for making me considerably well informed on this subject...Thx Ian!
Very well done. I am lucky enough to have recognized the beauty of this gun and bought 2 P7s a decade ago. Also had an M13 but it was just too stocky. Wish I would have kept it for investment, lol.
Also worth noting, if I remember correctly the P7 was the first pistol to use the "3 dot" pistol sights that are considered standard today.
The P7 is nothing for me, even as a German - but a Video about these from Ian? Oh boy, YES PLEASE! :-)
Bit of trivia for you, UK Military also tested P7 along with Walther P5 Compact as a possible Personal Protection Weapon. The H&K failed because information gathered from previous attacks where the victim was injured/wounded in either arm, the grip safety was inclined to be too strong for the victim to return fire with failing strength from injury. The P5C was therefore adopted.
Was really interested in picking one up and this was really helpful and thorough. Thanks you
Okay it get Hot! but most Polizisten (Police-Officers) do, In Deutschland (Germany), NOT fire 26 Magazins in a row. Mostly they can run a 30+ year carrier without a single shot in Duty.
My neighbor is a retired police officer (in Germany) who fired his gun twice on duty. Both times to kill a deer that was hit by a car.
@@Ripinda1911 Well okay thats is one way to use the weapon on duty.
Horst Boellinger unlike the USA....
@@lithiumvids9448 the overwhelming majority of officers in the US never discharge a firearm at an assailant. While I get the wild west image that gets portrayed, that's mostly in large metropolitan departments. We also have a ton of officers, so when you average it out it's very possible to go an entire career without shooting at someone.
@@Murphy82nd Germany has more police officers per capita than the US... and has cities as well. Could it be something else maybe?
The P7 is the best pistol H&K ever made.
MK23?
Mk23??????
I've been waiting for this video for so long.
My absolute, all time, favorite 9mm pistol. I always wanted to get one of the double stack magazine models. But since my whole stroke issues stopped me from working, I'll just enjoy all the videos out on them, instead of purchasing one...lol.. I still think that design was timeless and still is.
Awesome video and I love how deep you go into the history.
Instant thumbs up.
Thank you Ian; another outstanding description of the technical aspects. Nice to learn new detail everyday.
For many years H&K have focused on the internal Security market - Tier 2 market where the using organization has armourers available to the individual officer users. This the why military CT forces use H&K weapons. However H&K pistols are very expensive to maintain in maritime operations - often requiring the replacement of all internal parts. My guess is that the German police assessed that the number of rounds a police officer fired in a shooting incident was well less than 8 rounds, so high capacity and quick magazine change were not critical factors.
By comparison many US police seem to use the "spray and pray (hoping at least one round hits the target) shooting system". The US IPSC seems to follow this philosophy also. So high capacity magazines and rapid reload are necessary.
You mentioned the Glock, designed from the outset to be a Tier 1 handgun, less dependent on unit armourers and far more reliable in maritime / combat operations. Hence the Glock trigger is TOTALLY drop safe. Training overcomes the US civilian uniformed criticisms of "mushiness". Every shooter should know precisely how their firearm/s functions.
I fired 500 rounds from the P7 M8 in the RAAF FA-18 Pilot Pistol pistol trials in about 1990. This morning's shooting was just sufficient number of rounds for transition training. It is accurate.
Thank you again for your attention to detail and excellent presentation, kind regards, Greg.
Magazine capacity was most certainly not a concern for the German police. In 2017, German police officers - all LEOs in all 16 state police agencies and federal police combined - fired less than 100 shots in total. There was a heavily publicised case in (IIRC) 2012 where LEOs of the NYPD fired more shots at one suspect during one exchange of gunfire than the entirety of the German police did in that whole year. But I guess that's to be expected when you can reasonably assume that 99.9% of suspects do not carry a firearm, as opposed to the situation in the US.
To put it mildly, you are wrong, HK pistols are much more reliable than Glocks, given how many different kinds of breakdowns I have seen on Glocks with small one-way shootings, calling a Glock a very reliable weapon is not true, rather they are promoted by marketing. The only plus of the Glock is they are cheap.
in germany some nicknamed them the "Bayern-falle" (Bayern-trap) (bayern beeing a state in germany where the police was issued the p7 as their service firearm)
they called it trap because sometimes the mag fell out the gun when drawing it from the holster leaving the officer with an empty gun in a dangerous situation.
greetings from germany.
your videos are very informative and your attention to detail is refreshing :)
Shot one of these. Very accurate and brilliantly reliable. Chucks the case miles on ejection.
The (nearly) vertical magazine orientation within the angled grip has NOTHING to do with feed reliability. No handgun has ever had an issue with feeding from a grip angled magazine -- not 1911s, not Glocks, not Sig, not Berettas, nothing. The vertical magazine in a P7 is there to ALLOW FOR A LONGER BARREL by moving the breech rear ward. The P7 has a 4.13 inch barrel. Much longer than the overall length suggests. The Walther PPS which is almost exactly the same length as the P7 has a 3.2" barrel. The tiling barrel only recoils about 0.2" so the magazine orientation bought the P7 an additional 0.73" of barrel length and a notable increase in muzzle velocity.
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I own both. In fact, the P7M8 was the first handgun I bought when I came to the US for college in 1994. I really regretted not getting the M13. The M13 then was $1,200 and the M8 was $950. Today, a mint M13 will change hands for about $4000~5000 and M13 magazines go for about $250~300 each.
Sorry sir it does . As well as getting more length true . If you have ever shot hollow points and had to polish feed ramps etc or shoot only particular ammo .Had all the above . P7 will digest anything you put in it other than shot due to the light loads.
@@Jason-nj8dn I shoot truncated cone JHPs, Semiwadcutters and all manners of hard to feed stuff. The ability to feed such ammo has nothing to do with the angle of the magazine and everything to do with how high the feed lips are in relation to the bore and how shallow the feed ramps are. The angle of the magazine does not facilitate or preclude either. A P7 feeds everything, but so does a Glock, a Walther PPQ/PPS, a VP9 or a properly set up 1911 for that matter.
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BTW, the P7 is mechanically very accurate, but practically not so accurate. This is because while the stationary barrel promotes mechanical accuracy, the unlocked breech means the P7 has a sharper recoil than most 9mm pistols. Plus, the while the barrel doesn;t move, the sights are on the slide not the barrel and the P7 Slide-to-Frame fit is not particularly tight.
@@dwightlooi set up key word. You do not have to set them up. I have had many many 1911 etc. This is is not about cost. Just a conversation. In my opinion and experience. These handguns rock.. no screwing around with loads etc . In my experience kimber glock xp etc.. hands down p7 better. Mabey your explanation and experience is different. NOT mine . But appreciate your opinion. Best regards!
I have another reply as well about boar axis and recoil. If really wanted to could tweak for particular loads. The most accurate handgun I have ever shot other than six shooter. Some people suck with it. Practice makes perfect. All the same they need to make a updated version. Cool stuff.
@@Jason-nj8dn Not really... from a ransom rest (no shooter skill variance) the P7 shoots about 1.5~2.0" at 25 yards. Pretty good; but not world beating. A tight 1911 like a Baer shoots 0.7~0.8" at 25 yards -- basically one hole.
Surprisingly solid for an akimbo crits build.
May i present you the silenced judge
A silenced shotgun is better. And looks cooler
Wait fuck i remembered akimbos were primary weapons
I picked up a pair of M13s in Nov/Dec 2018.
Purchased an ex-US Parks Police M13 first (around 90%, shooter condition, with 4 mags).
Liked it so much, I purchased a 2nd M13 (from the 1st owner, unfired by him, 99% condition, full package w/test target, included 2 additional NIB mags, a 2nd set of NIB grips, and the factory armorer manual).
The 2nd M13 was owned by an "older" hardcore "HKFan", his children had no interest in firearms, actually disliked them after graduating from college.
He sold off his entire HK collection (over 100 HK firearms) in 2018/2019 (the majority were sold on GunBroker). This M13 was his favorite HK of all, actually kept it in a bank safe deposit box for over 3 decades, not one of his home safes.
"HKFan" was estatic to hear I had a shooter M13, and would keep his safe deposit box M13 as a safe queen, and in unfired condition. He was also glad to hear that both of my sons are gun enthusiasts, and will eventually own his treasured H&K P7 M13.
My shooter M13 is fitted with Trijicon "Bright N Tough" night sights, and gets carried on occasion. Low recoil and super accurate. My sons and I love shooting it.
Thanks for this informative vid. I've always admired the lines of this pistol, just didn't really know how they worked.
Forgotten weapons and coffee before work
You're doing it wrong. I'm having coffee and forgotten weapons AT work.
@@svtirefire yep
If only HK would bring this pistol back into production :(
The slide and top end of the frame bottom is so cool looking, very minimal and clean looking areas of the gun. Want to see more guns in this shape.
Never forgotten still one of the best to date. Best pointing pistol ever