A bit of new information thanks to Hans-Christian Vortisch - this fixed stock auto/burst configuration was apparently standard issue for FBI Special Agents (as opposed to specialist units like HRT).
Btw I love that references to R6 Raven Shield, thats exactly where I know the gun from! :D Was actually a quite powerful weapon in that game. Nice to hear the story where it came from.
I would be amazed if HK hadn't built one, and if they did, they'd surely demo it for Tier 1 SOF. But there's no way it was mass-produced and I would bet that Clancy simply made a mistake. He was never THAT good on technical detail - better than most fiction authors though.@@stewartmckinley7058
A SWAT Team friend of mine questioned a HK rep about the lack of hold open on their 9mm weapons. The response,”We don’t want the adversary knowing you’re out of ammunition.” His quip to that was,”I should think one of us should know.
Clearly, the answer Involves at least 10000 parts, a special Swiss watch consultant, 400 hours of machine time… and it taps you on the back and let you know that you're out of ammo.
@@RoyalArmouriesMuseum On one level I think I like the straight magazine, on the downside though the not very clear plastic of the magazine seems to barely provide a visual indication of spent rounds. At least it isn't like painted yellow or something foolishness. Oh and I agree having springs that go flying out of your gun does not seem like a desirable product feature to me. What do they think they are Far Cry 2 ?
I think this is the first physical example of a 10mm MP5 I have ever seen after reading about them in the Rainbow Six novel over 20 years ago. I actually didn't know about the bolt catch, I can only imagine the arm twisting that would have been required to get it added as HK is infamously resistant to any attempts to improve their designs for the people who actually use them.
I used to work at an indoor range. We had a regular customer who would bring his 10mm MP5 in along with one in 40 S&W. No idea what department or agency he worked for but he was a nice guy.
I love seeing Jonathan going from this nervousness to talk to the camera with a lot of studders to becoming more and more confident in the way he speaks and presents everything
What this this dude doing with gloves on? He has the right home office licence, so no need to worry about fingerprints. This word comes from licentious.
We were told that when H&K quit making them, the FBI bought up all the parts they had and, as they parts were used up, the weapons were phased out of the field in favor of the M4. I was sad when they took mine away - it was identical to the one displayed here. I could hammer nails with that thing...
@@VonZipper624 It was a sad day. I could hammer nails with my MP5. It was a pain to clean, but I didn't mind. The M4 just stays locked in the trunk as it's rarely the right tool for the job (for me).
1:10 The "10-94" date is in reference to the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban signed into law in September and in effect from October onwards (until it expired in 2004). This writing appears on magazines (with more than 10 rounds capacity) destined for the US market during this era to differentiate those mags destined for law enforcement/military from those for the wider civilian market.
@@eddietat95 the CFR said to use the date, but as the MP5/10 was an NFA weapon and there were no non-NFA versions, I'm going to guess H&K asked ATF and they didn't care that it was 10-94. Pre-ban mags did exist, I remember seeing one at an H&K dealer in Georgia.
@@steven-k. I doubt H&K called anyone. The specific regulation is to mark all magazines with a serial and "after" date, referring to the ban. It would not be sufficient to place any date BEFORE September 13, 1994 (i.e. "09-94" which would implicate Sept 1-12 or, perhaps accidentally 08-94 or before). H&K's "10-94" is not only abbreviated enough to get the job done (how efficient, how German), but it doesn't break the law by introducing a date BEFORE September 13, 1994. Hell, they could give a random April 1997 date and it would still meet the legal requirement of "clearly shows that the device was manufactured or imported after the effective date." For reference: H.R. 4296 ... SEC. 4. BAN OF LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICES. ... (e) IDENTIFICATION MARKINGS FOR LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICES.-Section 923(i) of such title, as amended by section 2(d) of this Act, is amended by adding at the end the following: ‘‘A large capacity ammunition feeding device manufactured after the date of the enactment of this sentence shall be identified by a serial number that clearly shows that the device was manufactured or imported after the effective date of this subsection, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulation prescribe.’’.
@@steven-k. I should add that the reason all manufactures didn't constantly update the markings to indicate the newest date of manufacture is because it's expensive to change the tooling needed to make the these markings. In the case of the polymer MP5/10 magazine this is presumably a molding die (could be wrong on the specific type, but that's besides the point). Easier to put 10-94 on all magazines and be done with. The date clearly meets the standard set by the law.
I love MP5s, the only full auto SMG I've ever fired was a 9MM MP5 and it was fun as hell. Shockingly easy to control really, I can see why they're so popular cause if I could handle it that easily with no prior training or experience on it a real operator could really do some work.
If you are indoors with civilians running around, and terrorists popping out from doors where you need to be precise and fast between every follow on shot - this is the ideal sized and powered weapon. It would make a better home defense weapon than any 5.56 platform BUT, honestly its expensive and you're unlikely to need more than just a few shots or have the need to stitch your shots between civilians in a residential home. So the good ol 12 gauge would have to win it for home defense for me. Nothing to make you pee your pants like standing in the pitch darkness only to hear the sound of a shell being racked into the chamber just a room away lol.
@@pjburges this is not a weapon for home defense. anyway I don't agree about the 12 gauge thing I don't know what kind of ammunition you use but if a weapon can easily penetrate walls you risk to do more harm than good.
They probably ditched them after one of the MP5/10s was stolen in San Francisco in January 2017. Because of the epidemic of car break-ins in SF. Welcome to hell a.k.a. California... www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/sanfrancisco/news/press-releases/fbi-seeks-public-assistance-in-recovery-of-stolen-firearm
The most recent photo I've seen of FBI SWAT with an MP5/10 is from 2020. Still in inventory, and ATF and US Marshals have a few too. Never seen proof of Secret Service owning any, despite claims, but it wouldn't surprise me. They did, after all, get closed-bolt, full-auto Uzis on special request.
Jonathan mentioning Rogue Spear made my day, I was thinking of Rainbow Six the whole video and how I would assign teams with kits based off FBI HRT with green uniforms and the MP5/10, SAS with black uniforms and the MP5SD, and USMC with Woodland BDUs and M4A1s
@@borismuller86 I did that once with the original Spider-Man movie when I was a kid and was pleasantly surprised to hear the soundtrack cause I figured it might play the audio to the movie. Thanks for reminding me of that very nostalgic memory
Jonathan Ferguson, the keeper of firearms and artillery at the royal armories museum in the U.K. Which houses thousands of iconic weapons throughout history. Is a man of culture.
I carried an MP5N (Navy model, collapsible stock, 3 lug muzzle, 4 position ambidextrous trigger group) for about 5 years on SWAT during the mid 90s until we transitioned to M4s. A few guys still tended to carry the MP5 and I went to an HK M1 Super 90. When that MP5/10 came out, I drooled over it. In 2005 we transitioned to Sig P226s in 357 Sig and I always thought an MP5 in that caliber would have been awesome.
Probably wouldn't have fed reliably, supposedly bottleneck cartridges feed more reliably but .357 is quite short and stubby. Had all kinds of problems with my Glock 32. And the P226 in .357 SIG was terrible when it first came out in 1996. I couldn't believe how bad it was because my P229 was pretty good, although it did jam more than the .40 Also, I've noticed a lot of variation in the shoulders of cartridge cases from different manufacturers.
Of course the .357 SIG is hilarious as yet another regression of 10mm Auto. 9mm not good enough, make 10mm. "But more like 9mm", make .40 S&W. "But more like 9mm", Make .357 SIG. Then everyone just swaps back to 9 anyway lol
The MP5/10 as shown was issued to FBI Agents until around 2018. The fixed stocked guns with safe/semi/2 shot burst trigger groups were issued to regular Agents. FBI SWAT and HRT were issued collapsible stocked versions with safe/semi/2 shot burst/full auto trigger groups. FBI SWAT and HRT made the transition to 5.56mm carbines sooner than the rest of the FBI but the 10mm MP5 was in common usage until fairly recently. One drawback of the bolt hold open was that the sharp corners of the cutout in the left side of the receiver seemed to be a point of stress accumulation and the receivers would develop cracks from these areas. This was not observed in guns issued to Agents but was seen in guns used extensively in the training environment like those used at Quantico for new Agent training.
Can second this anecdotally, saw this exact fixed stock, safe/semi/2-shot with the grey square mag config owned by a regular agent as well circa 2009/2010. IIRC by that point one of the magazines didn't like being topped off fully (left out the last 4 usually), and I was told he had a choice between a newer M4 and that MP5 when being issued a long gun.
The hood open position was a smart addition. You know as the shooter you’re empty and it also helps with a faster reload because you’re removing an entire step.
Ah, fond memories of the MP5 (9mm standard) as an AFO some 20 years ago. Great CQB weapon but not at range, hence going to the G36 5.56mm. The MP5 was a delight to shoot. One drill we had to do was have the weapon stripped at our feet at the point in the range, then on the command assemble the weapon and fire 10 aimed rounds in a timed exercise.
@@baffledking9902 From an operational point of view I would tend to agree, BUT it was to reinforce weapon familiarisation and confidence. Also, back then, we did not carry any secondary weapon (as an ordinary AFO), so our primary weapon was our only weapon as far as a firearm was concerned. Later I trained as a Rifleman, so I had the MP5, a Remington pump shotgun and a Steyr SSG 7.62mm bolt action Rifle with Schmidt & Bender optics.
@@Plentisaki ARV AFOs have always carried a secondary/pistol, haven't they? Used to carry .38 revolvers before being replaced with the Glock 17 in the mid 90s..?
@@baffledking9902 it's rudimentary, but the task is useful for gauging multiple performance criteria. Composure, coordination, weapon familiarity, eye health - an poorly exercised eye can take up to 3 seconds to adjust focus.
Cool experience. Even in a handgun platform, mainly 1911, the full house hardcast is manageable. I have a 5" 1911 & less than full house is a breeze with very quick followups.
Fell out of favour in the late 90s when SWAT/STAR teams started toting HK53s and Colt 604s. Turns out 5.56 fragments just fine. Almost every MP5/10 I have seen being waved about in anger is fitted with a flash hider from the Hk53 platform.
I had the MP5 (and also G3) as service weapon for many years. And yes NOBODY used the push button mag release. I never used the push button mag release on both these weapons. Always the paddle
Well, yeah. The paddle is a one-handed operation, while the actual button requires both. I've never understood why HK insisted on removing the paddle mag release from their more recent civilian offerings. As an AK guy, I felt right at home with the paddle switch on my Mp5k
@@dark2023-1lovesoni Also I see the push button hard to use with cold weather gear like mittens. Gloves do not work well in cold weather because they leak to much heat. So on the left hand we had left hand mittens with a free thumb. Just grab the magazine as high as you could and use the thumb to release it
@@afre3398 That makes a lot of sense. I honestly find the button release to be a bit too fiddly and difficult to use quickly under any stress with just my bare hands (and that's just in low-level competitions & training). I can only imagine that padded or insulated gloves would magnify that significantly, mitten even more so. That sounds less than ideal for manipulating weapon controls, especially in combat conditions. Out of curiosity, did you use the sliding A3/F type stock on the MP5, or stick to the fixed/A2 type stock on both? I'm mostly curious about hearing if the sliding stock's metal arms/struts gave any significant issues with cheekweld or aiming in the cold (and if so, what was done to reduce or eliminate these issues). I'm in the process of filling out the necessary paperwork to add a sliding/collapsing stock to my MP5k clone (SHF KES stock), but I also recently moved to Michigan (where the winters are much colder/longer than I was previously used to).
@@dark2023-1lovesoni My service weapon had the fixed stock. But we trained sometimes with a system that was like an advanced laser tag system. With real weapons converted to this system firing blanks but allowing for semi auto and full auto. Because with blanks normally the blow-back was far from enough to even move the bolt assembly. So we had to manually cycle the weapon for each shot. But never the less that latter weapons had sliding stock. And to be honest I felt more comfortable standard stock, as it felt more sturdy by far. But of course you felt much more "special force" walking around with the stock slided in. So my two cents is that slideing stocks are more for looks on the MP5, for us mere mortals
As a fan of the Rainbow Six novel I wanted to thank you for featuring this one and also for clearing the confusion with the MP10 name and it being integrally suppressed in the novel; it's quite rare to find content on this specific firearm. :)
there are lots of magazines on the US market marked for LE/govt use only, 94-04 the federal assault weapons ban prohibited sales of >10rd mags to normal people, so LE mags were marked that way. after it sunset, they went out on the commercial market. I have AR and Glock mags marked similarly.
What Americans don't realize is that illegal import of post-ban mags became such a problem for Glock that in 2000 they had to start marking mags sold outside the US with: "Post 9.13.94 manufacture" US law required US made mags to be marked: "For Export Only" but obviously that didn't apply to foreign-made magazines. Glock got really worried that they'd end up in trouble if they didn't put a stop to it.
I worked for the US Dept. of Energy for about 5 years, and back in 1993 I went through their SRT School at the DOE Central Training Academy, located at Kirtland AFB in Albuquerque. It was a fantastic month long school, and during the last few days each student was required to do a series of room entries with an instructor so the student could be graded on skills. Our issue entry weapon was the normal MP5A2, which was easy to manage through doorways. As I started my turn at the entry scenarios, I noticed the FI instructor I was going in with was carrying an MP5 with a large, straight, translucent magazine. He didn't tell me he was going in with a 10mm MP5, Hell I didn't even know such a beast existed. But to my extreme surprise, the first room we went into saw me come up off the ground as he rapid fired that thing about 4 feet from me at a 'Kill' target. That room and every other subsequent room we went into, especially the smaller rooms, were literally shaking when he fired that thing. At the time, the DOE's SRT protocal was that if you had to fire, then you *always* fired a 'Failure Drill' (or originally called a Mozambique which is 2 to the body, 1 one to head), so that's six rounds of 10mm in about 1.5 seconds at every hostile target he fired at. After I completed the course (yeah, I passed), I asked him "What the Hell was that??!" He explained it to me, said he wanted to put a bit more unexpected, surprise stress on me so he brought in the big ten... his plan worked very well. He further explained that the MP5/10 had options for both a moderate power bolt and a full power bolt, then asked me which one I thought he used. Duh....no question, I knew. He was running the old WInchester 175 grain Silvertip rounds, which back in the late 80's and early 90's were LOT hotter than they are today. I can confirm that having 6 to 12 rounds of full power 10 coming out of an almost 9" barrel in a 10x12 room will get your attention. If you're not expecting it, it'll get you off your feet. Thanks for the video, brought back a nice memory!
My first introduction to this was R6: Rogue Spear, many moons ago. "The year is 2001. The world is a very dangerous place..." Definitely appreciate the acknowledgement of the game after showcasing the details and differences. An interesting piece of kit, no doubt.
the other FBI mp5/10's ive seen have safe-semi-burst-full lowers. great review of a unique firearm. there was also the .40 cal mp5 available to the US gov (irs/wildlife/other LEO).
This has always been a top 3 dream gun for me. Omega made some semi auto 10mm clones, but they are hard to come by. Thanks for covering this gun in detail!
Name a better duo than Jonathan and an MP5. I'll wait. (As I write this I realize there is indeed a better duo. Jonathan and an EM2) Great video again, always love listening to Jonathan talking about whatever he is passionate about. Especially the MP5.
Wow! That takes me back, I used to spend hours upon hours playing RB6 Raven Shield. At it's time, was probably the most realistic shooter one could get. In my opinion, the height of the RB6 gaming franchise before it went really silly. Thanks for the flashback, Jonathan!
It's a very fine game, and most people would enjoy it once they grasp that teammates including the controlled character can die, but it's not the end of the mission.
I mean it's weird considering they were previously issued .357 Magnum revolvers (although to my knowledge issued .38 Special +P ammo), I haven't handled a 10mm but it can't be that much worse. I figure most FBI guys are prioritizing doing investigations over shooting guns though.
I think the issue was the girth of S&W 1076, as much as the "power" of the cartridge; very long reach to the trigger for the double-action first shot.@@justalurker3489
And no big guns for us. Really 10mm fine for confident shooters with full frame handguns, but the use of compact and sub compact hanguns lead to many of the issues. Once its in full size submachine gun it has no issues.
Actually, with progressive stamping, it would most likely be the case of swapping just a few die sets along the original manufacturing line to adapt for the bigger magwells, so the they wouldn't have to develop a completely new set of tooling.
All the mag related stamping dies would need to be designed and made specifically for this. Thats not cheap. Plus man hours to swap them out... though id imagine theyd do them in large runs
The weapon of choice of Team Rainbow in the original Tom Clancy Rainbow Six novel is an MP5SD in 10mm referred to in the book as the "MP-10". I don't think there ever was an SD version of 10mm MP5, but Clancy did his homework, like with every other book.
10mm auto out of a smg barrel is something like 420-450 m/s, so if you use a ported barrel and reduced powder-load you could get the round subsonic, but at that point it´s ballistic performance wouldn´t be better than .45 or .40, so kinda pointless.
Holy jeebus...fictional books and video games. I've owned 10mm pistols. The early Glock 20 and the S&W 1006. After that brief flirtation I went to or returned to the .45ACP-.45+P and.45 Super.
Garand Thumb's latest video shows that 10mm is significantly more powerful and penetrative than 9mm when loaded to its max potential. A lot of commercial 10mm is actually under-powered. The FBI decided 10mm was too much as agents were performing poorly with it under testing. They then went to .40 SW which in theory still had more power than 9mm but less recoil than 10mm. 10mm probably is a bit much out of a handgun for your average shooter to handle, but I'd imagine out of an MP5 the recoil would be fairly managable.
i remember when this came out and my dad was talking about it. i always wanted to shoot a MP5/10 with full power 10 auto rounds on burst. i can only imagine how hard it kicks
Like you, Jonathan, I've been a fan of the MP5/10 since I bought Rainbow Six (the book) all those years ago, as well as watching the Joan lunden FBI HRT documentary you mentioned. I was pleasantly surprised to see it appear in the game Ready or Not, and has been fun to use in that, with 2 shot burst and all. Definitely give it a shot (ha) if you're able!
The 10mm MP-5 in the FBI was widely used outside of the HRT by Field Agents and SWAT Teams. Additionally, most WERE equipped with 'A2' buttstocks. Interestingly 10mm cases ejected by the MP-5/10mm were frequently split.
FYI, Jeff Cooper's creation, the 10mm auto round, was meant to be _incredibly spicy._ Only the boutique 'defense' ammo manufacturers make 10mm loaded to the original specs. Another fun fact: the FBI quit using the 10mm because of high disqualification rate of female agents (and the 'armchair agents') using pistols in that caliber...THAT is the dirty little secret about the FBI's brush with a cartridge _meant_ to put down humans with one shot.
Thank you for an interesting video. I still play *Raven Shield* today. It's old, but runs fast and I still love the planning, inventory and maps. As indicated, I usually equip with a rifle, not a sub!
The MP5 is the Submachine Gun that refuses to die or become irrelevant. That said, it’s chief detractor by most who own/use it either in full auto in a military/law enforcement setting or are lucky enough to own one as a civilian (I own a semi auto one) is the lack of the Bolt Hold-open. I’m surprised that when HK introduced the MP5A5 MLI, they didn’t incorporate or improve the Bolt device from the FBI model as part of its “improvements”.
I fired one of these in full auto. It was chambered in 40 s&w and i was shocked at how easy it was to dump a full mag into a standard target at 10 yards
I carried a 10mm pistol as a police office in the mid-90's. The problem was pistols designed around 9mm and then adapted to fire 10mm were battered apart by the increased pressure round. Additionally, LE were carrying +P+ loaded ammunition which was pretty brutal on the guns. The Miami shooting "lessons learned" centered around the 9mm pistol ammunition used was insufficient to kill/incapacitate as the rounds didn't have enough penetration to reach vital organs. That leads to the FBI penetration standards; the 10mm provided enough power to meet their requirement. What seems good in a pistol must also be good in an SMG, and the rounds definitely had more oomph. The extended length barrel in the MP5 paired with specific ammunition already gave the 9mm sufficient penetration. What you got from 10mm didn't offset the abuse and limited life cycle of the new guns and was not sufficient to reliably penetrate body armor which is an increasing theme in American criminal activity. The MP5 10mm is compact and can maneuver in tight quarters while 5.56mm Rifles are less compact but will reliably defeat armor.
Actually the first Novel/Game release im aware of was with the Star Wars Shadows of the Empire multimedia project in 1996, which was set up as essentially a film release tie in media blitz, without a film. It eas an expirement to see if the Star Wars brand was still active and strong enough to sell merchandise without a major theatrical release. Turns out, it was. Its success led to the start of production of the Prequel trilogy. It also showcased that videogames had come far enough as a market to stand on their own as a story telling medium.
It's because the recoil is more manageable in the mp5 than a pistol, which was part of why they wanted to ditch 10mm in pistols after trying it out but still try it out in the mp5 I'm pretty sure
The MP5/10 was first issued to the Bureau in '92 with the priority being HRT and the Regional Office SWAT teams. While it stood into the armories until 2016 as other comment mentioned, it fell on favor of AR carbines circa 2008 for agents in general. Last time I saw the HRT guys running the MP5 operationally was in 2005, by next year, they had fully switched to the M4 already, followed by the other SWAT teams afterward. I remember the Quantico guys running custom muzzle devices to tame the full power 10mm used by these guys. The gun exposed is a "regular" agent version, having only semi and two round burst positions. SWAT and HRT guns had full auto, of course.
Yeah, every once and a while you can still find fairly recent pictures/video from some of the regional SWAT guys using these. You can tell by looking at many of them that they are very clearly old, well-used guns (by modern standards) that have seen a lot and are being kept alive through care & maintenance. Most of the ones I've seen as an outsider looking in have been extensively modified with aftermarket MP5 furniture (quad rails, optics mounts, muzzle devices, etc.) as well. My understanding is that -- as you said -- HRT traded these in for other weapons (primarily AR variants) quite some time ago. Additionally, most "regular" Agents have been instructed to do the same. The only ones who still use the MP5/10 in any meaningful capacity within the last few years were the aforementioned regional SWAT teams and even then standing orders are to run them until the proverbial wheels fall off, ship them back to Quantico, and then receive an AR variant in exchange. I understand this is largely due to institutional inertia and the fact that many of these field offices had absolute stockpiles of 10mm Auto JHP along with some localized spare parts.
I remember reading about the 10mm MP5 in Tom Clancy's novel "Operation Rainbow" back in the 90s. I was surprised by the fact it actually existed(I found out it had been used by the FBI HRT team during the Waco hostage crisis a short time after the novel came out) and it was a good idea at the time. Now, short barreled rifles have rendered most pistol caliber SMGs and carbines obsolete, at least for military purposes. But back in the day, a 10mm SMG bridged the capability gap between 9mm and rifle calibers.
The FBI did extensive testing with 5.56 to make sure it wouldn't overpenetrate during raids. Of course, they're able to use self defense rounds instead of full metal jacket, which reduces overpenetration, because the bullet dumps energy quickly.
We used to call this "the Centimeter" when I did training with it. Sad it never lasted, just like the other 10mm experiments the FBI delved into and then dropped. "Allegedly" because female agents couldn't accurately handle/control the power. Let's just say I never read any kind of official explanation for the end of the 10mm unification project, but that allegation matches what I've witnessed on the range... Hell of it was up to me we'd still be using the Monitor lol
The initial load of 10mm which the FBI used was actually pretty hefty for a pistol, and supposedly it made it much harder to qualify for many agents ("women and asians," is what you might hear people repeat). The later "FBI Load" of 10mm was much milder, and Smith & Wesson would plain copy that load in a slightly shorter case to create the .40 S&W cartridge. Incidentally, Gaston Glock quietly stole two rounds of .40 S&W from Smith & Wesson's booth at Shot Show (or whatever the equivalent was named at the time), and then developed and launched the Glock 22 (.40) before Smith & Wesson had released their own first pistol in the caliber to market.
That whole story is basically made up. The FBI never considered full power 10mm. One of the employees brought in 10mm handloads (reduced power) to test. They ended up liking the round enough to adopt it with the less powerful load. They realized pretty quick that it's pretty wasteful to use 10mm when you don't actually want all that extra power which is why we have .40 now.
What I was told by a retired agent is if you put the 10mm from the mp5 into a sw 1066 pistol, it would shoot out a fireball of unburnt powder, so they had 2 loads of 10mm, one for the mp5, one for pistols, so they decided to switch to .40 for pistols because that was essentially what they were already using just with a larger case.
Jonathan we already knew that you like the MP5 but seeing the familiarity with which you handle and disassemble it something else comes out. Tell the truth: every now and then, after your lunch break, you take one out and play with it a bit. Be honest!
Whellp! The MP5A2 Was allready my favourite SMG of all time, and now its the MP5A2/10 ! I allways thought submachine guns should have slightly bigger bullets than pistols.
I'm gonna hazard a guess and say that Clancy didn't want the reader to get hung up on the MP5/10 name, but didn't want to let go of the 10mm. It's a given that his group of super soldiers should have the shiniest new weapons. I believe the marksmen had the Walther WA-2000 and that didn't go very far either.
10mm still has a subculture of people who just love the cartridge. Some carry it in areas where they may run into bears. Damn hard hitting cartridge. Good episode.
The FBI had two different loadings for the 10mm, a full power "old style" 10mm and a reduced power that equals what would become the 40 S&W. There were two different spring assemblies for the MP5 to shoot the two different ammunitions. After the HRT started to transition to M4 carbines, some of the MP5/10 were given to SWAT qualified FBI agents. The agent that would come to the range at work had one identical to the one you have there. Full stock with just the safe/semi/two round burst trigger pack. He stated the two round burst was asked for due to the third round hitting too high in three round bursts or full auto.
As for why H&K would be hesitant about hold opens, isn't that something inherent to the roller delayed system? That you need to ensure enough travel of the bolt under spring preassure, the reason for the H&K slapso you don't accidentally slow down the bolt when charing it "normally"? And a fear that a hold open might interfere here and be a source of malfunctions because of the bolt not driving home with enough force?
Not sure why that would matter. The bolt locks open on an empty mag (like ALL firearms SHOULD), you drop the empty mag, stick a new one in and then you just slap the bolt release and the bolt slams home from the fully locked open position. Not only is there nothing to "interfere" with the bolt with this system, but I would argue that it is actually BETTER than the standard MP5 because your hand is not manipulating the charging handle in any way. Whereas with the standard MP5, you have no choice but to manipulate the charging handle after loading in a new mag, which is what can lead to a malfunction if you ride it and don't let it slam home unimpeded. With this bolt hold-open feature you just smack the bolt release and the bolt slams home. Your hand is nowhere near the charging handle, therefore it is almost impossible to interfere with it, and it slams home from the fully open position 100% of the time. IMO the standard MP5 would've benefitted GREATLY from this MP5/10 bolt hold-open feature. The worst part of the MP5 by far is the lack of a last round bolt hold-open. The same is true for the G3 and HK33. If all of those roller-delayed rifles had this MP5/10 last round hold-open feature, they may have dominated the market for the rest of eternity. Or at least until we are firing handheld laser guns or something like that. (Although I would still say that the AR-15 is the best rifle ever designed...even if the HK33 had the last round hold-open. The size, weight and modularity of the AR-15 design are all totally unmatched by any other rifle.)
The chambers were fluted. Years ago in the 1990's when I was still living in the PRC, (callie, not the other one). I was shooting my Glock 20, at the San Gabriel Valley range in Duarte. 10 mm brass for reloading, was very hard to come by compared to 9mm. I was amazed to find a pile of 10 brass on the ground at the pistol range. Scoped it up without further ado, and took it home to reload it. When I got it home and started cleaning and depriming it. I was amazed to see strange marks on all the fired brass. Figured it could have only come from the fluted chambers of the FBI's MP 5's in 10 mm. Many LEO's used the range for training outside the normal shooting hours.
A company called liberty civil defense makes a very lightweight projectile , 60 grains, in 10mm auto, from just a 6.5-7” barrel pistol it averages around 2700 fps or 823 meters per second, putting it in high power rifle category in terms of energy. It’s almost like having a full-size 5.45x39 ak74 but in the palm of your hand…..
There's a couple of companies that are doing 10mm MP5s here in the states. Not cheap as one would expect. Dakota Tactical and HK Ralph Jr. are amongst the best.
A bit of new information thanks to Hans-Christian Vortisch - this fixed stock auto/burst configuration was apparently standard issue for FBI Special Agents (as opposed to specialist units like HRT).
Btw I love that references to R6 Raven Shield, thats exactly where I know the gun from! :D
Was actually a quite powerful weapon in that game. Nice to hear the story where it came from.
Some of those police MPs were in 45acp
Navy seals have said there was an mp10 sd.
I would be amazed if HK hadn't built one, and if they did, they'd surely demo it for Tier 1 SOF. But there's no way it was mass-produced and I would bet that Clancy simply made a mistake. He was never THAT good on technical detail - better than most fiction authors though.@@stewartmckinley7058
Police MP5s in .45 ACP? I'd have to see evidence of that one.@@stewartmckinley7058
The 10mm round is rugged, reliable and ubiquitous making it a popular choice for wastelanders.
Hi ,please tell me what a wastelander is ,is it something to do with the Clancy novel ??
No dude, have you ever played any of the Fallout games?
That is exactly why the 9mm is the choice for martial and enforcement purposes in reality! Ironic.
10 mm sucked I did not like it at the range.
Although it was a 10mm Glock 🤮
@@samholdsworth420 were you firing real 10mm? or the underloaded garbage?
A SWAT Team friend of mine questioned a HK rep about the lack of hold open on their 9mm weapons. The response,”We don’t want the adversary knowing you’re out of ammunition.” His quip to that was,”I should think one of us should know.
When in dout turn a design flaw into a feature
@@AlexVergo764Microsoft mission statement much?
Clearly, the answer Involves at least 10000 parts, a special Swiss watch consultant, 400 hours of machine time… and it taps you on the back and let you know that you're out of ammo.
Kinda like car manufacturers opting to leave out spare tires all together, for "weight savings" lol
That's what you get for using full auto weapons. Learn to count your rounds.
I saw the community post of an MP5 silhouette with a straight mag and thought "nah, impossible, they can't!" bur you did you madlads! A 10mm MP5!
We aim to impress
Waffle stick was orig HK 54 mag.
@@RoyalArmouriesMuseum On one level I think I like the straight magazine, on the downside though the not very clear plastic of the magazine seems to barely provide a visual indication of spent rounds.
At least it isn't like painted yellow or something foolishness.
Oh and I agree having springs that go flying out of your gun does not seem like a desirable product feature to me. What do they think they are Far Cry 2 ?
@@RoyalArmouriesMuseum And the HRT aims to suppress
A straight mag on an HK SMG either means 10 mm MP5 or .40 S&" or .45 ACP UMP
I think this is the first physical example of a 10mm MP5 I have ever seen after reading about them in the Rainbow Six novel over 20 years ago. I actually didn't know about the bolt catch, I can only imagine the arm twisting that would have been required to get it added as HK is infamously resistant to any attempts to improve their designs for the people who actually use them.
A Swiss guy has one as well
Glad to see the early Rainbow Six game (Rogue Spear I remember)also has this variant of MP5 in the arsenal.
R6 Rouge Spear and its one of my favorites in the new game Ready or Not
I just came to the comments to write about this.
Yep same, been re reading the early Clancy books
I used to work at an indoor range. We had a regular customer who would bring his 10mm MP5 in along with one in 40 S&W. No idea what department or agency he worked for but he was a nice guy.
I love seeing Jonathan going from this nervousness to talk to the camera with a lot of studders to becoming more and more confident in the way he speaks and presents everything
What this this dude doing with gloves on?
He has the right home office licence, so no need to worry about fingerprints. This word comes from licentious.
@@williamnunn8847 These are all museum pieces so its probably a force of habit. Oils from skin can damage some things.
Correct@@isaacs3413
You can tell the MP5 is a point of passion for Mr. Jonathan
it is for a lot of people
@@acatinatux9601 most HK products are ones to lust for
And they also managed to make mp5 in .357
@@TrenaimeWHAT! That would be amazing!
There was a video where Jonathan actually became sad that the cod MW3 operator did not slap the bolt on the MP5
I’ll be amazed if Jonathan didn’t have the Action Man SAS kit as a child.
I still have him, lost the High Power but he still has the gas mask and MP5 😂😂
I swapped a scorpion tank for that!
Jonathan was The Second Man On The Balcony!
We were told that when H&K quit making them, the FBI bought up all the parts they had and, as they parts were used up, the weapons were phased out of the field in favor of the M4. I was sad when they took mine away - it was identical to the one displayed here. I could hammer nails with that thing...
lmao sure bud 😆
@@VonZipper624 It was a sad day. I could hammer nails with my MP5. It was a pain to clean, but I didn't mind. The M4 just stays locked in the trunk as it's rarely the right tool for the job (for me).
1:10 The "10-94" date is in reference to the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban signed into law in September and in effect from October onwards (until it expired in 2004). This writing appears on magazines (with more than 10 rounds capacity) destined for the US market during this era to differentiate those mags destined for law enforcement/military from those for the wider civilian market.
Sept. 13th 1994 actually, not sure why H&K did it that way.
@@eddietat95 the CFR said to use the date, but as the MP5/10 was an NFA weapon and there were no non-NFA versions, I'm going to guess H&K asked ATF and they didn't care that it was 10-94. Pre-ban mags did exist, I remember seeing one at an H&K dealer in Georgia.
@@steven-k. I doubt H&K called anyone. The specific regulation is to mark all magazines with a serial and "after" date, referring to the ban. It would not be sufficient to place any date BEFORE September 13, 1994 (i.e. "09-94" which would implicate Sept 1-12 or, perhaps accidentally 08-94 or before).
H&K's "10-94" is not only abbreviated enough to get the job done (how efficient, how German), but it doesn't break the law by introducing a date BEFORE September 13, 1994. Hell, they could give a random April 1997 date and it would still meet the legal requirement of "clearly shows that the device was manufactured or imported after the effective date."
For reference:
H.R. 4296
...
SEC. 4. BAN OF LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICES.
...
(e) IDENTIFICATION MARKINGS FOR LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICES.-Section 923(i) of such title, as amended by section 2(d) of this Act, is amended by adding at the end the following: ‘‘A large capacity ammunition feeding device manufactured after the date of the enactment of this sentence shall be identified by a serial number that clearly shows that the device was manufactured or imported after the effective date of this subsection, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulation prescribe.’’.
@@steven-k. I should add that the reason all manufactures didn't constantly update the markings to indicate the newest date of manufacture is because it's expensive to change the tooling needed to make the these markings. In the case of the polymer MP5/10 magazine this is presumably a molding die (could be wrong on the specific type, but that's besides the point).
Easier to put 10-94 on all magazines and be done with. The date clearly meets the standard set by the law.
So its like judnge Dredd esque "I am, THE LAW" from FBI?
I love MP5s, the only full auto SMG I've ever fired was a 9MM MP5 and it was fun as hell. Shockingly easy to control really, I can see why they're so popular cause if I could handle it that easily with no prior training or experience on it a real operator could really do some work.
The UMP is pretty nice aswell. ;)
@@ryshellso526 the MP7 too. HK does good work.
that's exactly what an operator said (I think he was SAS) something like ""if you're not good with an MP5 you're not good with anything".
If you are indoors with civilians running around, and terrorists popping out from doors where you need to be precise and fast between every follow on shot - this is the ideal sized and powered weapon. It would make a better home defense weapon than any 5.56 platform BUT, honestly its expensive and you're unlikely to need more than just a few shots or have the need to stitch your shots between civilians in a residential home. So the good ol 12 gauge would have to win it for home defense for me. Nothing to make you pee your pants like standing in the pitch darkness only to hear the sound of a shell being racked into the chamber just a room away lol.
@@pjburges this is not a weapon for home defense. anyway I don't agree about the 12 gauge thing I don't know what kind of ammunition you use but if a weapon can easily penetrate walls you risk to do more harm than good.
FBI agents had these up till around 2016/2017. It was not just limited to HRT. FBI also had 9 MM variants as well.
They probably ditched them after one of the MP5/10s was stolen in San Francisco in January 2017. Because of the epidemic of car break-ins in SF. Welcome to hell a.k.a. California...
www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/sanfrancisco/news/press-releases/fbi-seeks-public-assistance-in-recovery-of-stolen-firearm
The most recent photo I've seen of FBI SWAT with an MP5/10 is from 2020. Still in inventory, and ATF and US Marshals have a few too. Never seen proof of Secret Service owning any, despite claims, but it wouldn't surprise me. They did, after all, get closed-bolt, full-auto Uzis on special request.
@@Swindle1984 where is this pic?
Can civilians in the US get the 10mm variant? Ofc semi.
Ah yes, mp5/10 chambered in 9mm, of course. Definitely not just a regular mp5, mhm
Jonathan mentioning Rogue Spear made my day, I was thinking of Rainbow Six the whole video and how I would assign teams with kits based off FBI HRT with green uniforms and the MP5/10, SAS with black uniforms and the MP5SD, and USMC with Woodland BDUs and M4A1s
Somewhat unrelated but I remember putting the install CD into my stereo and it played the theme song. Didn’t know that was possible, beforehand.
Rogue spear was quite the title. I played both that & R6 extensively. I was the head everyone saw tilting out before they died.
@@borismuller86 I did that once with the original Spider-Man movie when I was a kid and was pleasantly surprised to hear the soundtrack cause I figured it might play the audio to the movie. Thanks for reminding me of that very nostalgic memory
Jonathan Ferguson, the keeper of firearms and artillery at the royal armories museum in the U.K. Which houses thousands of iconic weapons throughout history. Is a man of culture.
I carried an MP5N (Navy model, collapsible stock, 3 lug muzzle, 4 position ambidextrous trigger group) for about 5 years on SWAT during the mid 90s until we transitioned to M4s. A few guys still tended to carry the MP5 and I went to an HK M1 Super 90. When that MP5/10 came out, I drooled over it. In 2005 we transitioned to Sig P226s in 357 Sig and I always thought an MP5 in that caliber would have been awesome.
Probably wouldn't have fed reliably, supposedly bottleneck cartridges feed more reliably but .357 is quite short and stubby. Had all kinds of problems with my Glock 32. And the P226 in .357 SIG was terrible when it first came out in 1996. I couldn't believe how bad it was because my P229 was pretty good, although it did jam more than the .40 Also, I've noticed a lot of variation in the shoulders of cartridge cases from different manufacturers.
Of course the .357 SIG is hilarious as yet another regression of 10mm Auto. 9mm not good enough, make 10mm. "But more like 9mm", make .40 S&W. "But more like 9mm", Make .357 SIG. Then everyone just swaps back to 9 anyway lol
The MP5/10 as shown was issued to FBI Agents until around 2018. The fixed stocked guns with safe/semi/2 shot burst trigger groups were issued to regular Agents. FBI SWAT and HRT were issued collapsible stocked versions with safe/semi/2 shot burst/full auto trigger groups. FBI SWAT and HRT made the transition to 5.56mm carbines sooner than the rest of the FBI but the 10mm MP5 was in common usage until fairly recently. One drawback of the bolt hold open was that the sharp corners of the cutout in the left side of the receiver seemed to be a point of stress accumulation and the receivers would develop cracks from these areas. This was not observed in guns issued to Agents but was seen in guns used extensively in the training environment like those used at Quantico for new Agent training.
Can second this anecdotally, saw this exact fixed stock, safe/semi/2-shot with the grey square mag config owned by a regular agent as well circa 2009/2010. IIRC by that point one of the magazines didn't like being topped off fully (left out the last 4 usually), and I was told he had a choice between a newer M4 and that MP5 when being issued a long gun.
The hood open position was a smart addition. You know as the shooter you’re empty and it also helps with a faster reload because you’re removing an entire step.
Ah, fond memories of the MP5 (9mm standard) as an AFO some 20 years ago. Great CQB weapon but not at range, hence going to the G36 5.56mm. The MP5 was a delight to shoot. One drill we had to do was have the weapon stripped at our feet at the point in the range, then on the command assemble the weapon and fire 10 aimed rounds in a timed exercise.
My only problem with it was the short stock.
Not to mock, but that sounds like a useless make-work drill to do. Very thin margin of usefulness, which makes it a nearly useless drill practically.
@@baffledking9902 From an operational point of view I would tend to agree, BUT it was to reinforce weapon familiarisation and confidence. Also, back then, we did not carry any secondary weapon (as an ordinary AFO), so our primary weapon was our only weapon as far as a firearm was concerned. Later I trained as a Rifleman, so I had the MP5, a Remington pump shotgun and a Steyr SSG 7.62mm bolt action Rifle with Schmidt & Bender optics.
@@Plentisaki
ARV AFOs have always carried a secondary/pistol, haven't they? Used to carry .38 revolvers before being replaced with the Glock 17 in the mid 90s..?
@@baffledking9902 it's rudimentary, but the task is useful for gauging multiple performance criteria. Composure, coordination, weapon familiarity, eye health - an poorly exercised eye can take up to 3 seconds to adjust focus.
Mr Ferguson looks soo happy in the thumbnail
10mm really is the best mm
I've actually fired one of these a few times, back when they were new. Very excellent, handled like the regular MP5, recoil difference was negligible.
Cool experience. Even in a handgun platform, mainly 1911, the full house hardcast is manageable. I have a 5" 1911 & less than full house is a breeze with very quick followups.
Didn't they also put a bolt hold open on the G41 - the Hk33 variant supposed to compete with the M16 that also had an AR style forward assist?
Yes they did.
I'm curious to know why they didn't adopt the bolt hold open on everything going forward?
Fell out of favour in the late 90s when SWAT/STAR teams started toting HK53s and Colt 604s. Turns out 5.56 fragments just fine. Almost every MP5/10 I have seen being waved about in anger is fitted with a flash hider from the Hk53 platform.
I had the MP5 (and also G3) as service weapon for many years. And yes NOBODY used the push button mag release. I never used the push button mag release on both these weapons. Always the paddle
Well, yeah. The paddle is a one-handed operation, while the actual button requires both. I've never understood why HK insisted on removing the paddle mag release from their more recent civilian offerings. As an AK guy, I felt right at home with the paddle switch on my Mp5k
@@dark2023-1lovesoni Also I see the push button hard to use with cold weather gear like mittens. Gloves do not work well in cold weather because they leak to much heat. So on the left hand we had left hand mittens with a free thumb. Just grab the magazine as high as you could and use the thumb to release it
@@afre3398 That makes a lot of sense. I honestly find the button release to be a bit too fiddly and difficult to use quickly under any stress with just my bare hands (and that's just in low-level competitions & training). I can only imagine that padded or insulated gloves would magnify that significantly, mitten even more so. That sounds less than ideal for manipulating weapon controls, especially in combat conditions.
Out of curiosity, did you use the sliding A3/F type stock on the MP5, or stick to the fixed/A2 type stock on both? I'm mostly curious about hearing if the sliding stock's metal arms/struts gave any significant issues with cheekweld or aiming in the cold (and if so, what was done to reduce or eliminate these issues). I'm in the process of filling out the necessary paperwork to add a sliding/collapsing stock to my MP5k clone (SHF KES stock), but I also recently moved to Michigan (where the winters are much colder/longer than I was previously used to).
@@dark2023-1lovesoni My service weapon had the fixed stock. But we trained sometimes with a system that was like an advanced laser tag system. With real weapons converted to this system firing blanks but allowing for semi auto and full auto. Because with blanks normally the blow-back was far from enough to even move the bolt assembly. So we had to manually cycle the weapon for each shot. But never the less that latter weapons had sliding stock. And to be honest I felt more comfortable standard stock, as it felt more sturdy by far. But of course you felt much more "special force" walking around with the stock slided in. So my two cents is that slideing stocks are more for looks on the MP5, for us mere mortals
As a fan of the Rainbow Six novel I wanted to thank you for featuring this one and also for clearing the confusion with the MP10 name and it being integrally suppressed in the novel; it's quite rare to find content on this specific firearm. :)
there are lots of magazines on the US market marked for LE/govt use only, 94-04 the federal assault weapons ban prohibited sales of >10rd mags to normal people, so LE mags were marked that way. after it sunset, they went out on the commercial market. I have AR and Glock mags marked similarly.
What Americans don't realize is that illegal import of post-ban mags became such a problem for Glock that in 2000 they had to start marking mags sold outside the US with: "Post 9.13.94 manufacture" US law required US made mags to be marked: "For Export Only" but obviously that didn't apply to foreign-made magazines. Glock got really worried that they'd end up in trouble if they didn't put a stop to it.
I worked for the US Dept. of Energy for about 5 years, and back in 1993 I went through their SRT School at the DOE Central Training Academy, located at Kirtland AFB in Albuquerque. It was a fantastic month long school, and during the last few days each student was required to do a series of room entries with an instructor so the student could be graded on skills. Our issue entry weapon was the normal MP5A2, which was easy to manage through doorways. As I started my turn at the entry scenarios, I noticed the FI instructor I was going in with was carrying an MP5 with a large, straight, translucent magazine. He didn't tell me he was going in with a 10mm MP5, Hell I didn't even know such a beast existed. But to my extreme surprise, the first room we went into saw me come up off the ground as he rapid fired that thing about 4 feet from me at a 'Kill' target. That room and every other subsequent room we went into, especially the smaller rooms, were literally shaking when he fired that thing. At the time, the DOE's SRT protocal was that if you had to fire, then you *always* fired a 'Failure Drill' (or originally called a Mozambique which is 2 to the body, 1 one to head), so that's six rounds of 10mm in about 1.5 seconds at every hostile target he fired at. After I completed the course (yeah, I passed), I asked him "What the Hell was that??!" He explained it to me, said he wanted to put a bit more unexpected, surprise stress on me so he brought in the big ten... his plan worked very well. He further explained that the MP5/10 had options for both a moderate power bolt and a full power bolt, then asked me which one I thought he used. Duh....no question, I knew. He was running the old WInchester 175 grain Silvertip rounds, which back in the late 80's and early 90's were LOT hotter than they are today. I can confirm that having 6 to 12 rounds of full power 10 coming out of an almost 9" barrel in a 10x12 room will get your attention. If you're not expecting it, it'll get you off your feet. Thanks for the video, brought back a nice memory!
Always a good day when I see a new video with Johnathan. I hope to meet him someday!
My first introduction to this was R6: Rogue Spear, many moons ago. "The year is 2001. The world is a very dangerous place..." Definitely appreciate the acknowledgement of the game after showcasing the details and differences. An interesting piece of kit, no doubt.
i think the game "Global Operations" had it as well
Wow Hearing someone talk about Raven shield really took me back. i use to play the hell outta that game.
I didn't know the museum have a channel that does this style of videos and I already love Forgotten Weapons so this is perfect
Striborg now makes a straight mag roller 10mm PCC. I wonder if this is what gave them the idea.
I was today years old when I learned that H&K was headquartered right down the road from me in the US. Go figure! Love your videos!
the other FBI mp5/10's ive seen have safe-semi-burst-full lowers. great review of a unique firearm. there was also the .40 cal mp5 available to the US gov (irs/wildlife/other LEO).
This has always been a top 3 dream gun for me. Omega made some semi auto 10mm clones, but they are hard to come by. Thanks for covering this gun in detail!
Oh I didn't know that. Now I have to find one.
There has been some MP5/10 receiver 'flats' made (kinda like an 80% receiver), and I've seen some pistols, rifles, and SBRs done on those.
Name a better duo than Jonathan and an MP5. I'll wait.
(As I write this I realize there is indeed a better duo. Jonathan and an EM2)
Great video again, always love listening to Jonathan talking about whatever he is passionate about. Especially the MP5.
Ian Mccollum and Vickers gun? Dirty Harry and the S&W Model 29? James Bond and the Walther PPK? Nobody's a winner; they' all good!
@@thedevilinthecircuit1414 I would've paired Ian with a FAMAS personally, but agreed, they're all good.
Wow! That takes me back, I used to spend hours upon hours playing RB6 Raven Shield. At it's time, was probably the most realistic shooter one could get.
In my opinion, the height of the RB6 gaming franchise before it went really silly.
Thanks for the flashback, Jonathan!
It's a very fine game, and most people would enjoy it once they grasp that teammates including the controlled character can die, but it's not the end of the mission.
FBI we need more powerful cartridge
also FBI: no recoil too bad for our noodle arms
I mean it's weird considering they were previously issued .357 Magnum revolvers (although to my knowledge issued .38 Special +P ammo), I haven't handled a 10mm but it can't be that much worse. I figure most FBI guys are prioritizing doing investigations over shooting guns though.
I think the issue was the girth of S&W 1076, as much as the "power" of the cartridge; very long reach to the trigger for the double-action first shot.@@justalurker3489
even garand thumb and micah who were making fun of that fact didnt like how spicy it was on their recent video
And no big guns for us.
Really 10mm fine for confident shooters with full frame handguns, but the use of compact and sub compact hanguns lead to many of the issues.
Once its in full size submachine gun it has no issues.
@@SuperFunkmachine G40, quite nice to shoot actually. G29, not so much it turns out...
Excellet background, all very visible thanks!
This channel is such good therapy. From one Jonathan across the pond to another, we salute you, good sir!
Yeah, Raven Shield is one of my fav games, and that's where I've seen this gun for the first time. Great video
Interesting breakdown of an obscure variant. I remember using this in Raven Shield and being fascinated by it.
Brilliant comparison and review!
Really like how they implemented this gun in Ready or Not.
It would be really cool, if you guys could do the Savage 99. Thank you.
Actually, with progressive stamping, it would most likely be the case of swapping just a few die sets along the original manufacturing line to adapt for the bigger magwells, so the they wouldn't have to develop a completely new set of tooling.
All the mag related stamping dies would need to be designed and made specifically for this. Thats not cheap. Plus man hours to swap them out... though id imagine theyd do them in large runs
The weapon of choice of Team Rainbow in the original Tom Clancy Rainbow Six novel is an MP5SD in 10mm referred to in the book as the "MP-10". I don't think there ever was an SD version of 10mm MP5, but Clancy did his homework, like with every other book.
And if I remember correctly, the book talks about 3 rounds burst.
10mm auto out of a smg barrel is something like 420-450 m/s, so if you use a ported barrel and reduced powder-load you could get the round subsonic, but at that point it´s ballistic performance wouldn´t be better than .45 or .40, so kinda pointless.
Huh in Modern Warfare (2019) I combined the 10mm ammo switch and the SD barrel without knowing that. Makes me like that parts combo more.
@@guillaume4519 Yes, and I'm pretty sure they exclusively went for headshots. Three of those bad boys will end your day in short order.
Holy jeebus...fictional books and video games. I've owned 10mm pistols. The early Glock 20 and the S&W 1006.
After that brief flirtation I went to or returned to the .45ACP-.45+P and.45 Super.
Was definitely expecting a Raven Shield/Rogue Spear shout out. Loved those games.
Garand Thumb's latest video shows that 10mm is significantly more powerful and penetrative than 9mm when loaded to its max potential. A lot of commercial 10mm is actually under-powered. The FBI decided 10mm was too much as agents were performing poorly with it under testing. They then went to .40 SW which in theory still had more power than 9mm but less recoil than 10mm.
10mm probably is a bit much out of a handgun for your average shooter to handle, but I'd imagine out of an MP5 the recoil would be fairly managable.
The HK G41, basically a HK33 that accepts STANAG AR magazine also had a bolt hold open tab.
Rogue Spear was great it had a lot of MP5 variations. Fell in love with the SD right there, click click click click
That mag-release of mister balashnikovs Galil is the same as well. And yes that was his real name haha
i remember when this came out and my dad was talking about it. i always wanted to shoot a MP5/10 with full power 10 auto rounds on burst. i can only imagine how hard it kicks
You know, I was watching this while using World of Guns to disassemble an MP5. Very enjoyable game, also get to learn.
Like you, Jonathan, I've been a fan of the MP5/10 since I bought Rainbow Six (the book) all those years ago, as well as watching the Joan lunden FBI HRT documentary you mentioned. I was pleasantly surprised to see it appear in the game Ready or Not, and has been fun to use in that, with 2 shot burst and all. Definitely give it a shot (ha) if you're able!
I basically alternate between the MP5SD and MP5/10 in Rainbow Six 3 for my teams, absolutely solid kit in nearly all circumstances
Fun fact here: On the 9mm Mp5's used by the danish police, the boltgroup and the spring are two seperate units aswell.
7:20 "magazine hold open device" ;)
The 10mm MP-5 in the FBI was widely used outside of the HRT by Field Agents and SWAT Teams. Additionally, most WERE equipped with 'A2' buttstocks. Interestingly 10mm cases ejected by the MP-5/10mm were frequently split.
FYI, Jeff Cooper's creation, the 10mm auto round, was meant to be _incredibly spicy._ Only the boutique 'defense' ammo manufacturers make 10mm loaded to the original specs.
Another fun fact: the FBI quit using the 10mm because of high disqualification rate of female agents (and the 'armchair agents') using pistols in that caliber...THAT is the dirty little secret about the FBI's brush with a cartridge _meant_ to put down humans with one shot.
Raven Shield was my jam back in high school and college.
Thank you for an interesting video. I still play *Raven Shield* today. It's old, but runs fast and I still love the planning, inventory and maps. As indicated, I usually equip with a rifle, not a sub!
The MP5 is the Submachine Gun that refuses to die or become irrelevant. That said, it’s chief detractor by most who own/use it either in full auto in a military/law enforcement setting or are lucky enough to own one as a civilian (I own a semi auto one) is the lack of the Bolt Hold-open. I’m surprised that when HK introduced the MP5A5 MLI, they didn’t incorporate or improve the Bolt device from the FBI model as part of its “improvements”.
the sliding Stock of the normal MP5 is not interchangable with the Mp5/10 - it needs a special sliding stock with a cutout for the bolt release
I fired one of these in full auto. It was chambered in 40 s&w and i was shocked at how easy it was to dump a full mag into a standard target at 10 yards
I still periodically read Rainbow 6. Wish the later games had the same level of tactical planning.
Why am I not surprised Jonathan is a fellow OG R6 enjoyer. 😁
Love it. The HK53 is even better. The MP5 is cooler in an SD configuration. Solid stock a must.
I've never actually seen one of these before. An interesting read.
I carried a 10mm pistol as a police office in the mid-90's. The problem was pistols designed around 9mm and then adapted to fire 10mm were battered apart by the increased pressure round. Additionally, LE were carrying +P+ loaded ammunition which was pretty brutal on the guns. The Miami shooting "lessons learned" centered around the 9mm pistol ammunition used was insufficient to kill/incapacitate as the rounds didn't have enough penetration to reach vital organs. That leads to the FBI penetration standards; the 10mm provided enough power to meet their requirement. What seems good in a pistol must also be good in an SMG, and the rounds definitely had more oomph. The extended length barrel in the MP5 paired with specific ammunition already gave the 9mm sufficient penetration. What you got from 10mm didn't offset the abuse and limited life cycle of the new guns and was not sufficient to reliably penetrate body armor which is an increasing theme in American criminal activity. The MP5 10mm is compact and can maneuver in tight quarters while 5.56mm Rifles are less compact but will reliably defeat armor.
He is so good at his job.
Actually the first Novel/Game release im aware of was with the Star Wars Shadows of the Empire multimedia project in 1996, which was set up as essentially a film release tie in media blitz, without a film. It eas an expirement to see if the Star Wars brand was still active and strong enough to sell merchandise without a major theatrical release. Turns out, it was. Its success led to the start of production of the Prequel trilogy.
It also showcased that videogames had come far enough as a market to stand on their own as a story telling medium.
The MP5/10 with the famous surefire flashlight handguard will always be peak MP5 to me. It just looks right!!!
HK was like, "What if someone encounters a bear during CQB?"
Excellent new camera setup, Jonathan, very nice quality.
It's because the recoil is more manageable in the mp5 than a pistol, which was part of why they wanted to ditch 10mm in pistols after trying it out but still try it out in the mp5 I'm pretty sure
The MP5/10 was first issued to the Bureau in '92 with the priority being HRT and the Regional Office SWAT teams. While it stood into the armories until 2016 as other comment mentioned, it fell on favor of AR carbines circa 2008 for agents in general. Last time I saw the HRT guys running the MP5 operationally was in 2005, by next year, they had fully switched to the M4 already, followed by the other SWAT teams afterward. I remember the Quantico guys running custom muzzle devices to tame the full power 10mm used by these guys. The gun exposed is a "regular" agent version, having only semi and two round burst positions. SWAT and HRT guns had full auto, of course.
Yeah, every once and a while you can still find fairly recent pictures/video from some of the regional SWAT guys using these. You can tell by looking at many of them that they are very clearly old, well-used guns (by modern standards) that have seen a lot and are being kept alive through care & maintenance. Most of the ones I've seen as an outsider looking in have been extensively modified with aftermarket MP5 furniture (quad rails, optics mounts, muzzle devices, etc.) as well.
My understanding is that -- as you said -- HRT traded these in for other weapons (primarily AR variants) quite some time ago. Additionally, most "regular" Agents have been instructed to do the same. The only ones who still use the MP5/10 in any meaningful capacity within the last few years were the aforementioned regional SWAT teams and even then standing orders are to run them until the proverbial wheels fall off, ship them back to Quantico, and then receive an AR variant in exchange. I understand this is largely due to institutional inertia and the fact that many of these field offices had absolute stockpiles of 10mm Auto JHP along with some localized spare parts.
All the greatness of the mp5. Only this time its got a real round in it
I remember reading about the 10mm MP5 in Tom Clancy's novel "Operation Rainbow" back in the 90s. I was surprised by the fact it actually existed(I found out it had been used by the FBI HRT team during the Waco hostage crisis a short time after the novel came out) and it was a good idea at the time. Now, short barreled rifles have rendered most pistol caliber SMGs and carbines obsolete, at least for military purposes. But back in the day, a 10mm SMG bridged the capability gap between 9mm and rifle calibers.
The FBI did extensive testing with 5.56 to make sure it wouldn't overpenetrate during raids. Of course, they're able to use self defense rounds instead of full metal jacket, which reduces overpenetration, because the bullet dumps energy quickly.
Local cops,use HPs
Early wooden furniture MP5s with straight mags looked awesome 👌🏻
We used to call this "the Centimeter" when I did training with it. Sad it never lasted, just like the other 10mm experiments the FBI delved into and then dropped. "Allegedly" because female agents couldn't accurately handle/control the power. Let's just say I never read any kind of official explanation for the end of the 10mm unification project, but that allegation matches what I've witnessed on the range... Hell of it was up to me we'd still be using the Monitor lol
The initial load of 10mm which the FBI used was actually pretty hefty for a pistol, and supposedly it made it much harder to qualify for many agents ("women and asians," is what you might hear people repeat). The later "FBI Load" of 10mm was much milder, and Smith & Wesson would plain copy that load in a slightly shorter case to create the .40 S&W cartridge.
Incidentally, Gaston Glock quietly stole two rounds of .40 S&W from Smith & Wesson's booth at Shot Show (or whatever the equivalent was named at the time), and then developed and launched the Glock 22 (.40) before Smith & Wesson had released their own first pistol in the caliber to market.
Lol women agents. I want a woman trying to enforce laws lol
That whole story is basically made up. The FBI never considered full power 10mm. One of the employees brought in 10mm handloads (reduced power) to test. They ended up liking the round enough to adopt it with the less powerful load. They realized pretty quick that it's pretty wasteful to use 10mm when you don't actually want all that extra power which is why we have .40 now.
The original load was a 200 at 1300fps. Thats a cannon & close to full house.
What I was told by a retired agent is if you put the 10mm from the mp5 into a sw 1066 pistol, it would shoot out a fireball of unburnt powder, so they had 2 loads of 10mm, one for the mp5, one for pistols, so they decided to switch to .40 for pistols because that was essentially what they were already using just with a larger case.
Love my HK MP5 SD6 in .22LR, such an iconic firearm
Jonathan we already knew that you like the MP5 but seeing the familiarity with which you handle and disassemble it something else comes out.
Tell the truth: every now and then, after your lunch break, you take one out and play with it a bit.
Be honest!
Whellp! The MP5A2 Was allready my favourite SMG of all time, and now its the MP5A2/10 !
I allways thought submachine guns should have slightly bigger bullets than pistols.
I'm gonna hazard a guess and say that Clancy didn't want the reader to get hung up on the MP5/10 name, but didn't want to let go of the 10mm. It's a given that his group of super soldiers should have the shiniest new weapons. I believe the marksmen had the Walther WA-2000 and that didn't go very far either.
MP5/10 was still being issued to agents in the field up thru 2009
Should be available for the rest of us!
Don't know why but the MP5/10mm with that pale blue plastic thick STICK of a mag looks so much cooler than a normal MP5
10mm still has a subculture of people who just love the cartridge. Some carry it in areas where they may run into bears. Damn hard hitting cartridge. Good episode.
Ding! You had me at Rogue Spear
The FBI had two different loadings for the 10mm, a full power "old style" 10mm and a reduced power that equals what would become the 40 S&W. There were two different spring assemblies for the MP5 to shoot the two different ammunitions. After the HRT started to transition to M4 carbines, some of the MP5/10 were given to SWAT qualified FBI agents. The agent that would come to the range at work had one identical to the one you have there. Full stock with just the safe/semi/two round burst trigger pack. He stated the two round burst was asked for due to the third round hitting too high in three round bursts or full auto.
As for why H&K would be hesitant about hold opens, isn't that something inherent to the roller delayed system? That you need to ensure enough travel of the bolt under spring preassure, the reason for the H&K slapso you don't accidentally slow down the bolt when charing it "normally"? And a fear that a hold open might interfere here and be a source of malfunctions because of the bolt not driving home with enough force?
Not sure why that would matter. The bolt locks open on an empty mag (like ALL firearms SHOULD), you drop the empty mag, stick a new one in and then you just slap the bolt release and the bolt slams home from the fully locked open position. Not only is there nothing to "interfere" with the bolt with this system, but I would argue that it is actually BETTER than the standard MP5 because your hand is not manipulating the charging handle in any way.
Whereas with the standard MP5, you have no choice but to manipulate the charging handle after loading in a new mag, which is what can lead to a malfunction if you ride it and don't let it slam home unimpeded. With this bolt hold-open feature you just smack the bolt release and the bolt slams home. Your hand is nowhere near the charging handle, therefore it is almost impossible to interfere with it, and it slams home from the fully open position 100% of the time.
IMO the standard MP5 would've benefitted GREATLY from this MP5/10 bolt hold-open feature. The worst part of the MP5 by far is the lack of a last round bolt hold-open. The same is true for the G3 and HK33. If all of those roller-delayed rifles had this MP5/10 last round hold-open feature, they may have dominated the market for the rest of eternity. Or at least until we are firing handheld laser guns or something like that. (Although I would still say that the AR-15 is the best rifle ever designed...even if the HK33 had the last round hold-open. The size, weight and modularity of the AR-15 design are all totally unmatched by any other rifle.)
10mm x 25mm that is the same length of cartridge as the .357 magnum and designed to give the same sort of stopping power
I've learned about that on the Surefire Magazine on HKs anniversary. Awesome! A 10mm mp5!
Thanks from Louisiana!
The chambers were fluted. Years ago in the 1990's when I was still living in the PRC, (callie, not the other one). I was shooting my Glock 20, at the San Gabriel Valley range in Duarte.
10 mm brass for reloading, was very hard to come by compared to 9mm. I was amazed to find a pile of 10 brass on the ground at the pistol range. Scoped it up without further ado, and took it home to reload it. When I got it home and started cleaning and depriming it. I was amazed to see strange marks on all the fired brass.
Figured it could have only come from the fluted chambers of the FBI's MP 5's in 10 mm. Many LEO's used the range for training outside the normal shooting hours.
What does LEO stand for?
@@Random_Guy_20xxlaw enforcement officer
So neat!! We have an h&k museum here in Virginia
A company called liberty civil defense makes a very lightweight projectile , 60 grains, in 10mm auto, from just a 6.5-7” barrel pistol it averages around 2700 fps or 823 meters per second, putting it in high power rifle category in terms of energy. It’s almost like having a full-size 5.45x39 ak74 but in the palm of your hand…..
I'm sure it seems that way to people who don't know what sectional density is. Good old marketing.
@@chaimafaghet7343 3/4 of the projectile still goes about 12” into ballistic gel
@@chaimafaghet7343 I’ve seen tests it still penetrates car doors and other intermediate barriers and still achieves close to 12” penetration into gel
My go-to SMG in SWAT tactical shooter "Ready or Not"
There's a couple of companies that are doing 10mm MP5s here in the states. Not cheap as one would expect. Dakota Tactical and HK Ralph Jr. are amongst the best.
Making me feel old .. come on, 10MM is state of the art. 😅 Feel the nostalgia. MP5 😮😊