Victorinus Refuting the False Claims of Pretribbers // THE RAPTURE & ENDURANCE OF THE SAINTS
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- MARANATHA Global Bible Study // The Rapture and the Endurance of the Saints Episode 19: Victorinus Refuting the False Claims of Pretribbers
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I am being taught to take a closer look at the mixture in me that has been taught by men of God. They were sincere, but went by what seminary schools taught them or the commentaries available to them at the time. This shows me that I need the H.S. to examine me, and to help me search the scriptures. To be a good Berean. I don't want to be found repeating or teaching or influencing others with the mixture in my heart. 😇Thank you, Joel. Maranatha!
Amen!!!!❤
God's word says in the book of John you don't need any man to teach you for the anointing you receive will teach you all things
It's God's holy spirit will give you Revelation I'm telling you go to God hard in prayer get that breakthrough get flooded with the Holy Spirit and you will know what is true instantly
@Setfree-saved I've been preaching that for years...very sad to see so many people trusting man to know the Bible instead of the Holy Spirit. Those that do and those that lead them will answer to the LORD.
Blessings ❤️
@@followerofjesuschrist1424 praise God that's one thing I'd show it to me do not put any man on a pedestal there is no preacher administered that's truly of God that should be put on a pedestal. God showed to me people that named ministries after themselves and have their names and faces all over books are vain are self proclaiming.
Jesus Christ said you are they who look to make a name for yourself.
Thank the Lord people's spirits our eyes are opened and they see these holy ghost hustlers pulpit pimps for what they are..
God bless you
@Setfree-saved Amen and AMEN!❤️🙏
We are to preach the Gospel according to Scripture, plant a seed. God nor Jesus Christ ever told or taught man to interpret the Word of God onto everyone, especially prophesies. In fact it teaches this: 2 Peter 1 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
Some do it for money, some just from being illiterate with Scriptures, even though it seems like they're not, and some do it with agendas of their own. Many of them supress speech in the Church as well, by hiding comments on their videos so only the author of the comment can see it, deleting them, and/or not allowing comments at all. This has to be part of the great apostasy, in my opinion, the falling away, because when these dogmatic speakers of Scriptures turns out to be wrong, many will lose faith 😔 There is no stopping them on our end, only the LORD will deal with them👍🏻🙏❤️
My prayer for those who read this that we can escape the wrath of Yehovah by staring death in the face and maintain our good confession and testimony and not fear death.
We DO escape the Wrath of God, but tribulation is from Satan, not the Most High.
@@joinjen3854Well I would say that the tribulation serves two main things it’s the begining of Yeshua Messiah to take back Satans authority by a series of judgements, along with his power to bring his body to full sanctification we are becoming Chase virgins, we did not start out that way, we all inherited lies and we are coming out of the authority of a system that is not of Yehovah, and that takes great tribulation in some cases, there are others who have been yielded to his covenant and walk by the spirit prior to the time of Jacobs trouble. Then there are those foolish church pew warmers who never walked under the Lordship of Yeshua and they will be ensnared and trapped, but even then Yehovah’s grace is amazing May we all be ready and watching when the Son of man comes like a thief in the night, this is not the coming of his rapture this is the time when he comes in judgement just prior to his Parousia during the 7 year tribulation
We would all love a pre trib rapture, BUT history of the martyrs shows otherwise. Blessings to all. Stay strong in The Word.
I trust the Bible when it says the last day! I don’t trust Man and I test everything, and I mean everything!
John 11:24
Verse Concepts
Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”
John 6:40
Verse Concepts
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:44
Verse Concepts
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:54
Verse Concepts
He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
The history of the martyrs is just that...the history of the martyrs. In o/words, what does their history have to do with the price of butter in Russia? You may not realize it, but you're simply making an Argument to Fairness, and THAT negates your argument. What passage can I go to that gives the *WHY* the church would have to undergo _ANY_ of the tribulation...is there even ONE?
On the o/hand, there are passages that give us not only the *PURPOSE* for the tribulation, but also the *PEOPLE* it's aimed at, and *N O N E* of them include the church.
@@Kman. the world has been in Tribulation since the fall of Eden. Even more so since the Resurrection. Believers NEVER escape the trib of Satan. Some escape the wrath of God. Study the Bible.
Sounds like you were talking about my divorce. My jezzy was trying to pull me back into drug addictions but Jesus overcame that demonic spirit in my life. After a 4 year divorce I’m stronger now then I’ve ever been because I made that painful decision. I’m prepared to travel through all tribulations including the great one we will all face soon.
Have benefited from learning what the early church writers wrote. Thank you Joel for including in the series.
I've been reading some of the early fathers mentioned and came across this quote of Irenaeous about Ignatius, "As a certain man of ours said, when he was condemned to the wild beasts because of his testimony with respect to God: “I am the wheat of Christ, and am ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of God". Every early Father i researched were martyrs themselves with this same attitude of privelege to be counted worthy of suffering and testing, like their Savior, not to escape from it.
AND it is very apparent through Jesus and Paul's deaths that God's Spirit is very close to and speaks to those who are close to martyrdom.
Obviously they would not believe in pretrib since they were Already in tribulation.
I am not a scholar but that's not what I got from that! It clearly says & is referring to the fact the church would go through tribulation & persecution.
36:15 "Boring" no i find it super fascinating and exciting.
Thank you for this careful scholarship! 🙏😊
Thank you, Joel and all the FAI gang! Through your ministry I can FINALLY make some sense out of end times prophesy. I LOVE YOU GUYS!!!
Thank you. Not boring at all. Very helpful.
I have learned so much from all the bible studies.
These teachings are very good and also important. That said it is about what some believe outside of the scripture. If we rely on scripture alone it is clear that a pre rapture scenario is not the case.
A good reference for what you talked about at the 29:38 time stamp is Isaiah 57:1-2.
Nice perspective.
I would hate to stand before God and try to excuse any false beliefs just because the early church or church fathers "believed" it. We must always always always be diligent and read God's word! Study it, MAKE SURE one understands and one can prove their belief and be continually seeking the Holy Spirit to teach us.
John 11:24
Verse Concepts
Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”
John 6:40
Verse Concepts
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:44
Verse Concepts
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:54
Verse Concepts
He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
We have studied our Bibles and that’s why but we believe the resurrection is at the last day because that’s what it says!
The false apostle Paul did say at least one truth. "We see in a glass darkly" . In other words we haven't a clue about most all what is going to happen. But most people pridefully believe they have all the answers. The church fell in to apostasy around 250AD and it has been the Great Whore Babylon ever since.
Here is the danger to those who believe in the preTrib idea ... a preTrib believer is startled one day to realize that he is seeing with his own eyes a world ruler that has all the earmarks of the AntiChrist, the activities, pronouncements, actions of the world in response, a decree that you must have the mark in order to buy and sell, etc. So what happens? We would like to think that he realizes he has been wrong and changes his mind to become a postTrib believer and goes on to stand with Jesus, endure the tribulation, and so on. No doubt a few will do this, but the majority will assume that the secret Rapture has occurred and they were "left behind". Psychologically, what do you think a person in this predicament will do? Most likely be horrified at being deceived and will be instantly full of hate for God, for Christianity, for Jesus, and for the Pastors that taught him, etc., He will then violently reject everything and everyone in his past and fully embrace his new Lord and Saviour, the False Messiah. Like Hemingway described bankruptcy -- slowly then suddenly -- we can see apostasy slowly rising today but it will spike when the AntiChrist is in power.
This is exactly what I worry about. The pre-tribbers seem blind to the true word of God. They seem to forget Satan is also known as the Great Deceiver. Then again, we still hope for an end time revival before they take the mark.
@@alberthall4923 No doubt there will be an end-time revival but it looks more like it will happen during the tribulation and not beforehand. We've seen this through history, persecution and faithfulness will inspire non-believers to embrace God's salvation (which is what Yeshua means, the Hebrew name of Jesus).
@@robertlawson4295 totally agree with you there. Praise God for the great multitude no man can count coming out of the tribulation !!
@@Pollywaffle777 Amen !!
I believe the great tribulation occurred during the Jewish Roman war in the years leading up to 70AD when Jerusalem and her temple were completely obliterated just as prophesied by Christ in His Olivet Discourse... And I see Revelation as God’s divine judgement on apostate Jerusalem in the first century..
God bless you.
Kids are mentioned in the tribulation. Why would kids be raptured just for more to be born and go through it? Shouldnt that mean everyone would be sterile in the tribulation? Thats a red flag to any pre trib notion
The church/bride rapture is at judgment day. Jesus is Truth
John 6 39-54 Jesus says at the Last day four times
Because everyone will be sterile during the tribulation? 😮
It's at the last trumpet @ Jesus never comes to earth we meet in the sky. . Remember obey the commandments if you want Gods seal on your forehead and not the mark of the beast. Sabbath is Saturday and it is so we might get to know him. He is looking for the ones who truly love him. He searches the heart. it doesn't mean you won't be saved you will sleep a 1000 years with most everyone. Love covers all.
St the last day. Post wrath.
Wow!Stevie wonder could see Mike’s wrong here.
Yep a 14 yr old girl had a vision And Darby of the Plymouth brothern picked it up. I don’t know how people can think anything other then post trib.
I've had two dream visions of what I understand as the second half of the tribulation. Both are extreme, definitely. In both, my family was already gone (to Heaven).
Your dreams come from Satan read your Bible! John 11:24
Verse Concepts
Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”
John 6:40
Verse Concepts
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:44
Verse Concepts
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:54
Verse Concepts
He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
@@artifacthunter1472 A bit judgmental, no? Maybe they'd all died already (hopefully in the peace and knowledge of God).
It's a really strange conundrum. Perfectly intelligent Christians lose their reading comprehension on this subject. I don't think he was intentionally twisting his words here. A prejudice will cause an unwilling bias that you may not see because of misplaced passion. I will say this; The Holy Spirit could've said "the Lord, at the end, will save national Israel and the church is totally gonna go through the tribulation." But He didn't. Which tells me He had a reason not to. When the Lord ascended, were the apostles ready? No way! Peter- "but, but, but... what about this guy?!" Jesus- "what's that to you? You follow Me!"
Ten days later this vacillating man nukes the Sanhedrin, and everyone listening, right in the temple. How? The Holy Spirit GOT him ready when the time was right. Why? Isaiah 42:8- "I Am the LORD, that is My name, and my glory I WILL NOT share with another." If this hot mess of saved sinners (little better than fishermen and tax collectors)stands in the face of the man of sin, NO ONE will say it was because they were ready or on the same page. Just a thought.
An honest and ignorant man, after being informed can either be honest or ignorant, but no longer both. I reached out to Mike and shared with him som every clear citations. He stopped responding. In which case, he is no longer being honest.
@@JoelRichardson What an apt and poignant idiom! Is that yours as original? Asking because I want to use it myself and want to attribute it correctly.
Wow. Mike Golay should be ashamed of himself for his sloppiness and lies.
I just had a thought the other day that made me ask, is it possible the "many will go to and fro" in Daniel as talking about a huge increase in refugees in the end?
Joel. Good stuff. Please could you pin links to the videos from which you took clips, as I would like to reference them in an essay? I would greatly appreciate it. Cheers buddy!
Hello all, I’m working on a 2 year-ish project that, in part, examines this topic, the eschatology of the church fathers before the Council of Nicea. The vast majority were certainly post-trib. Outside of this they all had differing opinions, except that they were firm believers in the literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. But Victorinus stands out from the rest in that he has a great deal of opinions that are Dispensational. I would say that I lean that way but am open to criticism and whatever the Bible teaches. I was surprised to find out that Jerome openly altered Victorinus’ commentary to make it less literal and more allegorical. Victorinus places the “apostles” in heaven in Rev 4, explains that 144,000 Jews will be saved under the preaching of the 2 witnesses, and places enemies of Christ on earth during the millennium. The quote about the church being taken out of the way is questionable. By that I mean that if you read his whole, unaltered commentary it is not clear that he is pre-trib or post-trib. I’m interested to read his commentary in the original language to see if it sheds any light on the “church being taken away”passage. I’m curious if the better translation commentary in the video is the one Jerome altered or not. Thanks for keeping in interesting!
Look up UNDERMINE and definition. Pre-trib takes the WORD and "renders it unstable by digging at the foundation" "to injure by invisible, secret, or dishonorable means" In conclusion, it isn't inadvertent. It is sleight of hand, cunning, crafty and beguiling. No if, and, or but about it.
Brother, I've got a question on the Newton School of the Darby Brethren that had some kind of mid/pre Trib rapture? I read something a while back but need some help on digging up who the group/person was? Thanks, brother. The Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, Maranatha.
B.W. Newton remained in Ireland after Darby left. While he was Dispensationalist of sorts, he disagreed with the novel Pre-trib rapture view. Big conflict ensued. The Roots of Fundamentalism by Ernest Sandeen is helpful.
@@JoelRichardson I appreciate the quick response, thank you. But (always a but in there, huh) in reading my question it is unclear what i was looking for. Newton split from Darby over this issue. Darby was a pre tribber and nEwton a end of tribber (or vice versa), but there was a third alternative that grew out of the split, a type of Pre-trib/mid-trib overcomer rapture. Can you point me in that direction? If you know? Thanks again.
@@crash2thecontrary158 Did Newton end up espousing some type of mid-trib view? You may be correct. I have not read about this. Tregelles (his disciple) of course was Post-trib. Sovereign Grace Advent Testimony republishes all of Newton's books.
@@JoelRichardson Thank you, Brother. That was very helpful. Ben Newton did indeed espouse the post trib rapture, but there was an off shoot of an overcomer theory (pre-trib and mid-trib) spawned by the Brethren split. I am grateful for your help. The Lord keep you and your family.
What is the Root or foundation of this church? Is it Calvary Chapel? I do believe that this church had early leaders actually setting dates of rapture where congregants gathered sat and waited to be taken to heaven. If this is the root it makes sense the pre trib rapture would continue to be taught an interwoven within this church. It makes me sad there is so much debate between believers. What does God think about his Son’s bride being divided.
I think unity will be one of the largest results of the tribulation that will bring many into the end time harvest
I am commanded to hate and rebuke all false doctrine and I hate the pre-rapture theory I hate dispensationalism and I hate the gab theory!
RVK is incorrect with his assertion that pre trib and post trib should be brought together for pre wrath. He is still pre trib whether he sees it or not. Revelation 20:4-6 is the only resurrection prior to Christs return. Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Christ does not raise to life for service or an interment in heaven (with the Father or Christ) those who will be judged and separated and cast into the lake of fire. There is no specific "second resurrection". At the end of Rev 20 vs 13-15 the sea and death and hell give up the dead in them they are not resurrected which is the judgment that is the second death. Those who's name is in the book of life at the end of their judgment will enter the Fathers kingdom but if their name is not found in the book of life they will be sent to the lake of fire. Matt 25:14-46. Hebrews 9:27 "it is appointed unto men once to die then the judgment." People are not judged at the time they die Matt 10:14-15, Matt 11:24-25. All will be judged on the day of judgment saints and sinners all alike except those who qualify for the "first resurrection" Until judged (1 Cor 3:11-15) None can stand before God except those who are holy and blessed (Ref20:6) such as those who are Christ's at his coming 1Cor15:23. The dead in Christ does not mean everyone who had the name 'Christian' has the the same re-pore with the Lord as they do with men. Jesus says not all that say to him Lord, Lord. Why would he raise them from the dead as resurrected and then judge them to cast them into the lake of fire. They as stated in Rev 20:5 do not get raised to life at the Lords return but only get raised at the end of the millennium.
Romans 5:8-9
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, *we shall be saved from wrath through him.*
1 Thessalonians 5:9
*For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,*
Romans 3:20-28
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
*25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,* to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
ACTS 9:4-5
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, *Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou ME?* 5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, *I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:* it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Galatians 1:13
For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure *I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:*
Ephesians 5:30-31
*For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.* 31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. *32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.*
2 Cor. 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that *Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?*
Hebrews 9:26
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now *once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.*
Hebrews 10:12
But this man, after he had offered *one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;*
Revelation 5:1-4
And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a *book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.*
2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3And *no man in heaven,* nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4And I wept much, because *no man was found worthy to open and to read the book,* neither to look thereon.
(v.8-9)
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and *twenty elders* fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast *redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;*
2 Cor. 11:2
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for *I have espoused you to one husband,* that I may present you as a *chaste virgin to Christ.*
1 Cor. 15:1-4
Moreover, brethren, *I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;*
*2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.*
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, *how that Christ died for our SINS according to the scriptures;*
*4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:*
1 JOHN 3:2
Beloved, *now are we the sons of God,* and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Romans 8:14-15
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, *they are the sons of God.* *15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.*
A Christian saved by believing the gospel in 1 Cor. 15 and will be caught up (1 Cor. 15:49-53). The Church is called the BODY OF CHRIST. This Body of Christ is perfected by the adoption, to WIT the redemption of the Body. The Father poured out His wrath on His Son and Jesus Christs' blood was the propitiation (the appeasement of wrath) for sin. Jesus' sacrifice was done ONCE (Hebrews 9) A Christian has Jesus Christ WITHIN him. (2 Cor. 13) Saul persecuted the Church, Yet Jesus asked him, "Why are you persecuting me?" The Church is the BODY OF CHRIST. This was a mystery revealed to Paul (Ephesians 5). The Church is told by Paul that WE are not accounted to wrath, (Romans 5, 1 Thess. 5) The Church will be presented as the BRIDE of Christ. Jesus does not beat and kill His bride before He marries her. God the Father does not pour out wrath on His Son TWICE. There is no mention of Church after Rev. Ch. 3. The Bride comes down from Heaven in Rev. 21 AFTER the Tribulation. The 24 Elders are the Church as they are saved BY THE BLOOD! *redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;* JEW AND GENTILE!
Being a "Berean" is about studying scripture, not the writings of "church fathers" who wrote no inspired SCRIPTURE or had special revelation revealed to them like PAUL DID.
So basically everybody through out history has had trouble with dudes name! got it.
Luke was historically then, AD 70; Matthew is Todays Israeli.
I love Revelation; I see the Seals and the Trumpets and Bowls Running at the same time. The Seals are opened and a Trumpet blasts; I figure the first four to five seals run with the Trumpets and The last of the seals are with the Bowles.
The Catholic Church is the Harlot riding the Beasts Back.
I like your understanding and care for interpretation; I believe how it is written. Study "The Mystery of God." and explain Revelation 10 : 7. Please.
God will not be saving physical Israel only spiritual Israel that is the elect, The ones predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ through tribulation, The ones chosen before the foundation of this earth was created! Not all of Israel is of Israel!
AMEN
Ephraim the Syrian...Early Church father, 4th century...
" Blessed is he who unceasingly remembers the fear of Gehenna and hastens to sincerely repent...for he shall be delivered from the great tribulation" (55 beatitudes)
"For the elect shall be gathered prior to the tribulation, so they shall not see the confusion and the great tribulation coming upon the unrighteous world"
Irenaeus ...friend of Polycarp who was a disciple of John the disciple of Jesus
From a fragment of "Against Heresies" 5.29.1
" When in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up
from this it is said " there shall be tribulation".
I call you out on your false representation of what the early church believed, because the understanding that the Bible teaches a pre-trib rapture was widespread.
The stars falling is when God judges Satan and his angels who are cast out of heaven and to the earth. Then Satan unleashes his wrath because he knows that his time is short.
I can’t follow this victornus guy on his teaching because of Catholic understanding. I don’t believe in a rapture too much has said to endure til the end on our part but please don’t listen to that man
Many of these preachers/teachers know there isn't going to be a rapture. It makes for a great attention gainer for them to go on tour with. ($$$)
Unfortunately, all the old ladies, ect. are getting the wrong info.
They need to cut it out & teach that we need to get cleansed & go through the trails to be found worthy of His kindom. So, get ready.
Mike Golay isn’t a Linguist, Joel. You shouldn’t have ever mentioned the name. You pronounce stuff wrong a LOT
Honest question...what makes you right and them wrong? My personal view is, we would not have so much conflict, among many other things, if men (and,sadly,women) would stop preaching the Bible,giving their own interpretations, when the Bible says not to. Men should preach the Gospel and how near the Kingdom of God is, and our Salvation Jesus Christ being on the way and how to assure you will be found worthy to escape what is to come. That's the mission, not preaching the Bible...that's my view and what Scriptures teach.
Every Christian, regardless of whether they have pre-tribulationist beliefs, should care that what they are being told was the teaching of the early church was, in fact, taught by those concerned. We should all be ready to hold accountable anyone who tries to sell us lies about that.
What Joel is doing in this series is exposing the untruths about early church teachings we are all being fed by pre-tribulationists like Mike Golay and Lee Brainard. These two, especially, have been promoting this falsehood in their endeavours to mislead all of us into believing that pre-tribulationism was a common teaching in the early church when quite the opposite was true.
@Berean with a BTh I get that, and thanks for your reply... bottom line, in my view, man should preach the Gospel and that the Kingdom of God is at hand, not their interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, especially prophesies.
2 Peter 1
King James Version
20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of
God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
20 "First of all, understand this: no prophecy of Scripture is to be interpreted by an individual on his own; 21 for never has a prophecy come as a result of human willing - on the contrary, people moved by the Ruach HaKodesh spoke a message from God."
Nowhere in the Bible does it tell men to go out and preach on the Bible. That's a big reason why there is so much conflict and apostasy and unbelief....we are to read the Bible ourselves and ask the Holy Spirit for understanding, not men and women. Jesus taught (its in John) that the Holy Spirit would give understanding, not for men to go get ordained and certificates and degrees and titles ((preacher, pastor, teacher etc, which Jesus ordained Himself before His ascension)) supposedly making them more knowledgeable than anyone who didnt go get one.
Men and women just go listen to their favorite person and put all their trust in them instead of reading the Bible and praying to the Holy Spirit for understanding.
It's very sad, since the last true ordained teacher (ordained by Jesus) of the Kingdom of God coming and on the Gospel died, men took it upon themselves to go out and tell people what the Bible says in their opinion...look where that has gotten everyone over the millenia. Then there are book sales, DVDs, MERCH, and tickets to go watch someone preach their interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, passing around donation plates, etc etc etc......I'm sure you know (I pray) how Jesus felt about the scribes and Pharisees....and the marketplaces in the House of God.
Man is not to make themselves scribes and Pharisees, but, instead, fishers of men to go out and preach (FOR FREE) the Kingdom of God is at hand and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, our only Salvation.
Blessings🙏❤️
FOJC,....How does one preach the gospel when almost no one knows what the gospel even is? The church certainly does not know what the gospel is.
@@exposingfakechristianity5556 That isn't a true statement. If you read the Bible you will know as well 👍🏻❤️
@@followerofjesuschrist1424 ,...I have spoken the truth. The entire church is apostate and has nothing to do with the Bibles Christianity. The christianity the church sells is a replacement (antichrist) christianity.
The church does not know what the gospel is, and it sells another gospel.
Who is this true ordained teacher who died that you speak of?
Matthew 24; 29, 30, 31 Jesus returns after the Tribulation. I'll listen to His words and not those of the false apostle Paul.
Let me guess, another video of someone telling us how some person prior to 1948 was refuting pre-trib eschatology. How enlightening.
The rapture is happening before the great tribulation
Whether you believe it or not
Is that "Thus saith the Lord?" Or thus saith you?
@@wjdyr6261 dang boy....
You just had to say it....
So lame
The Word of God said
Foreshadowed in the old testament
Do you know what this means?
Enoch..... Elijah...
Any Revelation given to you
Apparently not
Prophesied by Jesus
Do you understand the number of days of creation and the number of days in the story of Lazerus?
As was the cross ....
That too a mystery
And taught by the apostle Paul
Shown by the church in Thessalonia
Tribulation......
For Israel
Not the church
Clearly
Scholar you are not
And Joel is off on this one
But it's ok
Many great men of God didn't get Revelation right away
We know persecution in our church
45 men have been murdered for the gospel of Jesus
You know what exactly????
Narrow is the road bro
N. A. R. R. O. W
@@robbietrimmer9752 Where does Jesus specifically teach a pre-trib rapture?
@@wjdyr6261 Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Revelation
Where else does He speak????
You can't understand Revelation without understanding the old testament
Where does Jesus say
Where doesn't He????
Again Study....
To show thyself approved
@@wjdyr6261 oh ya...
And The book of Acts
Revelation comes from the Holy Spirit, Mighty God
Not your peanut brain
I am unsubscribing now This is simple not true Pretrib view did indeed exist in the early church So No you are simply wrong
Refute him with texts that prove what you are saying
Look throughout History at the persecutions faced both by the Jews and the Christians since the very beginning. Why were those people not raptured away? Was their suffering not sufficient to warrant it? Have all the persecuted Christians through history been somehow unworthy? Were the disciples unworthy? Was Christ Himself unworthy?
If you would truly follow Him, take up your cross and follow Him.
2 Tim 3:12-15
“Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”
It's simply the truth. They didn't believe in escaping a 7 year tribulation. Most of them specify events such as the 6th seal or later as being the rapture trigger.
Should pastors and bible teachers making the devil horns during their sermons be overlooked? Video on channel "Act of Mercy"
@@seekingtruth1508 please get a life
I am so grateful to Joel. I haven't found anyone else that corrects erroneous teaching like this on any subject.
I’ve always believed the church goes through the persecution. It baffles me that John mc author believes otherwise.
Because he lives a life of ease like many apostates.
“The righteous perishes, And no man takes it to heart; Merciful men are taken away, While no one considers That the righteous is taken away from evil.”
Isaiah 57:1 …….Excellent teaching Joel ! 🙌🏾
Joel seems very gracious in not attributing nefarious motives to the speaker he is critiquing, I however cannot see how someone could avoid the clear statements of the actual tribulation of the saints and then go on to conclude the opposite.
This very much seems to me to be “teachers scratching itching ears.”
2 Timothy 4:3
[3] For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
God commands us to be separate and God has taken everything from me I have no more family no more friends because I am separated from the world I preached them all away! They hate the truth because they don’t belong to God!
@@artifacthunter1472 Pray for them.
It's exactly the same as the pre-trib approach to Scripture. Partial quotes and/or quotes lifted out-of-context. I remember reading an article online by Thomas Ice a number of years ago now. He quoted quite extensively from early church sources. But when I looked up those sources and read them, I discovered that he had selectively quoted them, leaving out entire sections which taught quite the opposite. Often in the VERY NEXT SENTENCE. That's not scholarship. That's deception.
Or, confirmation bias. We tend to look for sources that support our already made up mind.
@@deniserobertson7146 Based upon my readings in The Early Church Fathers, I must conclude that they simply ignored passages which directly contradicted the pre-trib narrative. As I stated, in many cases the contradictory material was in the same context as the pre-trib "proof texts" they used. Sometimes even in adjacent sentences. I believe the pre-trib scholars of previous generations were FAR more intellectually honest. No less than Dr. John Walvoord openly stated both in speech and in print that The Early Church Fathers were post-tribulational in their view of The Rapture.
I've noticed that too. Then just recently I heard that the nwo ppl push the narritive that their plan is to project to the shepple their date far out so no one will suspect what their agenda is.. time wise 🦉
Love this channel ❤. Also love your background....Calming.
Not boring at all. Edifying and informative. Thank you Joel .
I think "untimely figs" is referring to unripe figs - e.g. it is "not time" to pick - hence untimely. It is the storm that shakes the tree and causes unripe and "insecure" fruit to drop. Fruit trees naturally set more fruit than can be carried to term and so some of the fruit falls before it gets ripe. Storms help this process to "thin-out" the fruit that is not going to mature anyway. Persecution causes weak and noncommittal believers to fall away. None of us is "ripe" until death.
Great comment. I think so also. But I can see how it may be read the other way
I looked up "untimely fruit" and it's the fruit that grows after the harvest, stays on the tree through winter, but drops off right before spring. I had this happen to my passion vine. Late fruit appeared, but it never matured. It stayed on the vine for months but never came to maturity and eventually dropped off. No good for eating or harvesting. Whatever this untimeliness means....we don't want to be found immature!
All that God owns will come to him and he will lose none there’s nothing absolutely nothing to worry about you! All of God‘s predestinated elect will be saved! The rest were born to be taken as stated in the Bible in Hebrews!
Joel, can you please, after the conclusion of your great sermon start holding up the mic at shoulder level and just let it go? Let it hit the floor with a thud and then just walk away. Drop the mic and walk away. Epic.
Your spelling of Victorinus is wrong...
And it's pronounced Vik-toe-RI-nus emphasizing the "RI" part.
You're spelling "you're" wrong. Lol ... sorry. I couldn't help it 😂
@@triciabgirl3935 Actually, he used the proper homophone of "Your" vs "you're" because with "you're" you have to break that down to "you are" as that's what it is equal to. So if you place "you are" in his sentence you will see that it would be out of place. So "Your" is proper grammar here.
Still very funny though lol
@@thegatheringqc8982 oops! Lol I missed the "of" !!
Lord help show my family and friends they need to be ready to endure tribulations not be zapped out of any trouble. In Jesus holy name. Amen
Are they star-trek theologians as well?
I recall being puzzled how people could believe something silly as the pre-trib "beam us up" rapture. It sounded like a 'global cop out'... And it indicates a carnal attitude as they twist scripture to their own desires. And it is combined with other heresies as well.
I came out of Calvary Chaple Costa Masa in the late 60's, Hal Lindsay and Calvary taught me the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine. One Day I felt that I should learn the Post-Tribultion view and doctrine so that I could debate, pointing out the errors in the Post Tribulation doctrin.1
@@williamlopez815 What's the error in the Posttribulation rapture view?
I recall that the go-to argument of pre-tribbers is to assert that got won't allow his children to suffer. Well, that shows they worship a God to their own desires.
You enduring tribulation?
Our ministry is
More than Jo-el
And we are looking for the appearing is our Lord
The rapture
Baptized over five hundred this calendar year....
Funny
What exactly are you doing?
@@robbietrimmer9752 Sorry ur holiness
We're in a world where people now have temper tantrums, rather than admit they've made mistakes. Heartbreaking to say the least! Very interviewing with children in stores, and then the parents of them do the same thing, demanding to see a manager. 🤪
Brother I pasture a church they worship a rapture not Jesus Christ it's so sad they have being spoon feed Darby and Scofield pre trip for so long it's hard to get them to see the truth they won't even consider the truth that greaves me we must pray deeply for them
Great job!!
I can't understand why anyone would worry about the rapture! If it turns out to be a true doctrine in The Bible what does it matter When it happens if you're not ready!? If your name doesn't appear in the lamb's book of life and you are not. Saved you won't be raptured either! If you are left behind it won't be because you believed in the wrong version of the rapture. It will be because your name doesn't appear in the lambs book of life.
Yes it matters because ppl will sit idling waiting in vain for a false doctrine to occur
I find postmillennialism to be true.
@@chrisc3164 Which is why I say if you're not ready what does it matter.
@Dbusdriver71 it matters in that they may not understand what's going on and lose trust. Now obviously this means they locked faith, but this is exactly the reason I believe the great falling away occurs.
Should pastors and bible teachers making the devil horns during their sermons be overlooked? Video on channel "Act of Mercy"
Joel, love your teaching! acknowledging you know much more than myself, may i ask a question about the figs? having a fig tree myself, could the untimely fruit be immature fruit, representing immature Christians?
Untimely: usually means it happened much to early. Like a young persons untimely death, or when a fig tree is shaken the unripened figs will fall off.
Bereans must watch and clarify every words meaning. Good observation!
@@msmag-cfarms9660 thanks for that!
That’s how I read it too brother.
@@msmag-cfarms9660 it's the ripe that fall. The immature stay thru Winter but fall in early spring out of season. Ripening too early in spring. If you can call it that.
Harvest is in the fall.
The problem with pre trib believers is when the antichrist sets the stage they don"t recognize him because they reason "it can"t be the antichrist because we are stil here"" pre trib teaching is dangerous not only for the ones who believe in it but also for those who teach it Jeremia 14;14
It is not possible to lie to the Holy Spirit and it is not possible for Satan to take control of the planet with Spirit filled believers in Place here we are the SALT of the Earth This teaching gives the Devil too much power God has not appointed his children to wrath that is what I believe and I cannot be swayed in that, Lot was taken out of Sodom before the wrath of God destroyed it. Amd true Spirit filled believers will be removed before the planet sees Gods wrath poured out. I am not afraid of the tribulation but it is not the punishment of believers but God's wrath poured out on the world of sin. Many so called believers will likely be left behind but that is because the are like Eli the priest and his sons who did not take seriously the weight of sin and turn from it. we are to righteous and Holy lives unto the Lord
@Annymay Tiedye look at the world as it is. Are you telling me it is not possible to lie to the world? Ridiculous.
BTW, the church is not a membership organization, it is made of believers. If you are saved you are of the church. Teaching anything else is dispensational nonsense.
@@annymaytiedye2055 all the parables of jesus teach separation and immediate judgement and burning. None of them teach " well don't worry here is your 2nd chance while it slowly catches fire" they are whoel heartedly judged at the trumpets and bowls and doomed.
Would not teaching a earthly kingdom also be dangerous? We are told there will be false prophets and they will worship this earthly kingdom. It will look godly and have much of the biblical lingo. Jesus told pilate His kingdom is not of this world and john said love not this world. Peter said we look for the promise of a new heaven and new earth.
@@christianmichael8 jesus establishes his kingdom on earth at the end of the tribulation. You would have to spiritualize it and only it to say otherwise
Severe weather will cause trees to cast their fruit before it is ready in an untimely manner. That fruit "falls away"
I just love when you get worked up pastor Joel. Also, I so get and enjoy your sense of humor! I know this is a very serious subject..and am in agreement.
Hey Joel, I appreciate your diligence to be thorough and fair, a complete and a good Bible student.
Please help me understand some jargon I often hear: what is being referred to when you folks mention "the 10-40 window?"
The 10/40 window is the middle east
The 10/40 Window is the rectangular area of North Africa, the Middle East and Asia approximately between 10 degrees north and 40 degrees north latitude. The 10/40 Window is often called "The Resistant Belt" and includes the majority of the world's Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists.
@StrongTower
Thank you, your help is appreciated.👍
@@redmane_0725 No problem. Have a great day ☺️
I don't know how anyone could, from that first quote of Victorinus, claim that it was speaking of the Rapture. "...the good will be removed, seekiing to avoid persecution." "...men are separated from the Church by persecution."
Sort of like, "AntiChrist shall put the to Church flight," where flight means Rapture.
Yeah, the Woman isn't "the Whole Catholic Church." Can't agree with all of Victorinus' interpretation.
Romans 16:25. Paul's gospel WAS a MYSTERY NOT known before.. God wants us to HEAR Paul's gospel given to him by Jesus himself
The rapture itself is only the symptom of the main issue of premillennialism which claims that Jesus is not fulfilling completely the Davidic covenant now because he is not ruling on earth from an earthly throne. Without a literal millennium the false doctrine of the rapture falls apart and the only thing left is what the bible teaches about a foundational doctrine which is the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead.
Ps 110:1 (A Psalm of David.) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
How can both of the verses both be correct simultaneously? How can Jesus reign until all enemies are under his feet if he must sit at the right hand until all enemies are made his footstool? The only explanation that can be derived from this is that he is reigning now at the right hand of the Father. God was king of Israel before anointing Saul. Who was he king over? The people of Israel. They were his kingdom. He ruled and earthly kingdom from his throne in heaven. So then, with Jesus being God, why is it claimed to be unacceptable for him to sit on the very throne and rule over Israel as God did in times past over Israel? Jesus being God is now ruling over his kingdom the church on earth from his heavenly throne. Just as he did in the Old Testament before allowing Israel to have an earthly king and rejecting him as their king.
Does FAI understand the church as grafted into Israel? This question is not to be confused in anyway as replacement thought but rather do you see those from the nations who follow the Jewish Messiah as included - included in Israel’s covenants, troubles, blessings for from this place of viewing the “ church” as separate -separated which leads to erroneous doctrines that see christians rescued and Jews slaughtered which later led to apathetic behaviors and attitudes pre ww2
see Ephesians 2 for the Bible view of former Gentiles and strangers.
Not boring brother, very much enjoying the series, got behind a good bit and I’m catching up. I very much appreciate your thoroughness on this subject and this playlist to reference and refer people too.
Hi Joel. Loving this. Please could you verify the reference for the first quote from Cyprian? Thank you
Can you please help Sudan as well they are also GODS people, thanks ,
There are a lot of organizations out there who help people in these places
I definitely shall be. God bless you, and may God bless Sudan, and raise up godly leadership.
Isn't Samaritan s Purse in the Sudan as well as the UN?
@@joinjen3854 all I know is they need our help and our prayers , more then Israel,
I listened to Mike many times i dont understand why he lied to the church. Im questioning everything ive ever been taught
Not boring, LOVE IT
love all this thanks Joel
See Daniel 12:4
Sorry You are wrong.
Only use the Quotes from the Word.
Paul taught that we will be taken.
Jesus said not a hair on your head will be harmed.
The Bride was already judged at the cross. The judgement is for the wicked only.
The unrighteous will be put threw the testing.
The bride is pure.
The bride is holy. The Bride is perfect. They have been made white as snow.
The Holy Spirt is in the Bride.
The Holy Spirt does not judge Himself.
Judging is for all who have not been imputed with his righteousness.
Please study only the The Word.
JS,....Although it is true this guy is wrong, but so too are you. There is no such thing as a rapture.
The rapture wouldn’t have been relevant for the early church! Just like Paul revealed a mystery in his day, God works on a need to basis so that argument is weak at best.
Why would the timing of the lords return not be relevant to the early church?
We are Blessed w/you & Dalton & all associated w/FAI - Would really Love to hear your opinion of when Theos blows the breath of life back into the 2 Witnesses & commands "Come Up Here"? As the Bible says Christ is coming back again w/all His Saints not twice for a secret rapture? Surely when Theos says "Come Up Here" the dead in Christ will have to rise w/the Witnesses at the sound of the Trumpet? Thnx
I must say you look very nice today Joel. Yes Indeed it is sad and what a crime they are committing and knowing the truth. I thank FAI & ALL who share The light.
Thank you Joel, I am really enjoying these teachings. And no they are definitely not boring.
Thank you, blessings ❤
Mystery Babylon added the church/bride to the thousand year reign of Jesus
John 6 39-54 Jesus says at the Last day four times
Many will leave the church because they are the many that are called and not chosen!
I never heard the 6th seal events described in a spiritual sense before. Love it!
Joel, do you believe what victorinus is teaching? Mountains and islands represent Christians being displaced???? Blood moon is the blood of saints??? Falling stars are saints falling?? Sounds like some preterism.
Its not that he believes what victorinus believes, its that victorinus is used as an example of pre trib by pre tribbers, but he wasnt pre trib.
Its pretty well spelled out in Revelation that the Rapture is Post Tribulation. I'm of the opinion or understanding that we are required to participate in the spiritual warfare that will be taking place. Am I incorrect? ✝️🙏❤️
The answer to your question is "Yes."
24:36 victorinus commentary on Revelation 12:6
How about we just keep preaching the gospel and living our lives for God, being prepared to go at anytime, instead of arguing amongst each other like the Bible tells us NOT to do! ❤
When the 2 witnesses are called up that's the 1st resurrection or rapture of the dead in Christ 1st then we who are alive and remain.
Judgment begins at the house of God. The letters to the 7 churches are judgments during the 7 yrs. Believers are judged and threatened with tribulation, great tribulation and Jesus coming as a thief in the night.
The church is mentioned after Rev Ch 3 also. They're called the saints, holy people, those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
You have shown that you do not understand the Bible but only understand false teaching that you have been indoctrinated with by the apostate church. Repent, and stop listening to the apostate church.
I am not comforted by this teaching. I reject it in the Lord Jesus Name.
Rejecting it doesn't make it any less true - it only makes you unteachable.
Looking forward to a pretribulational coming. Based on biblical and theological evidence. 👍✝️
RP,....There is no such thing as a rapture. You have been deceived. Repent!
The Manchild (rev 12)
is the 1st fruits/bride of Christ/144,000. They will be accounted worthy
(Luke_21:36) to escape the hour of temptation (Rev. 3:10) and will be with Jesus when he opens the seals in Revelation Ch. 6.
The firstfruits was the summer/spring feast; pentecost. It began to take place when Christ walked on the earth over 2000 years. After the ressurection of Jesus; Paul and James were telling the early church that they were the firstfruits. The final harvest could not be the firstfruits. The fall/winter will be trumpets and tabernacles(New Jerusalem.) This was why Jesus said when you see the fig tree begin to shoot forth you know summer is near. This must also be applied to the 144,000 of revelation 7 and 14. It says before the harvest/ end of the world the leaves will fall from the tree and people will be cold. Very little fruit the closer we get to the Christ's arrival.
@@christianmichael8 Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb.
The 144,000 are the Firstfruits.
This person is a lying crown stealer. (Rev. 3:11)